Paladin 12 / Ranger 6 / Monk 2

[FatalBagel]

Having not previously raised a pally, I was wondering if this seemed decent to people despite seeing no real examples of builds.

My questions:
- Does this seem feasible?
- Am I gimping myself by trying for too much of a hybrid dps/tank?
- Have there been any decent versions of a build like this published?
- Is there another build that better fits my needs?

Goal: Semi-casual survivalist DPS with some light tanking ability.

Description: Warforged, TWF (Khopeshes), Knight of the Chalice II, Tempest I.

Expect to gain:
Evasion
Decent DPS
Decent AC
Good Saves
Lots of Immunities

Willing to sacrifice:
Zeal - Tempest seems better.
UMD - Painful. I'll probably still raise it cross-class.
Cash - No holy weapon and necessary tomes.

Stats:
STR 26 = 15 Base + 3 Levels + 2 Tome + 6 Item
DEX 22 = 11 Base + 2 AP + 3 Tome + 6 Item
CON 26 = 16 Base + 2 AP + 2 Tome + 6 Item
INT 18 = 11 Base + 2 Tome + 5 Item
WIS 22 = 12 Base + 1 AP + 3 Tome + 6 Item
CHA 22 = 12 Base + 2 Levels + 2 AP + 2 Tome + 6 Item

Feats:
(TWF, ITWF from Ranger)
Khopesh
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical
Toughness
Power Attack
TWD
Edit: Removed GTWF - Thanks Thrudh

In order to get all of these, I will have to respec a couple feats for tempest.

Feel free not to pull your punches. Thanks in advance for all input!

[Greydeath]

My questions:
- Does this seem feasible?
- Am I gimping myself by trying for too much of a hybrid dps/tank?
- Have there been any decent versions of a build like this published?
- Is there another build that better fits my needs?

Yes (unfortunately)
YES
No
Yes

[AylinIsAwesome]

Yes (unfortunately)
YES
No
Yes

Same answers.

You'd probably be better off with a Paladin 18/Monk 2.

Same attack speed, more damage against Evil Outsiders and you get the Holy Sword.

[Thrudh]

FYI you need a BASE Dex of 17 to get GTWF (ITWF too if you don't have the 6 ranger levels)...

So you really need to start with a 15 or 16 Dexterity for a TWF Paladin build...

6 ranger levels aren't as good as 6 more Paladin levels... Zeal is as good as Tempest and saves you a feat

Ranger: You spend 3 feats for Tempest, but get TWF and ITWF for free
Paladin: Have to get TWF and ITWF, but don't need to spend 3 feats for Tempest...

6 levels of ranger gets you decent favored enemy bonuses and Ram's Might, but Paladin 18 gets you bigger Knight of the Chalice bonuses, plus better Exalted Smites and Divine Might III...

Looking at the compendium, I just realized that Exalted Smite isn't even in there... Devs, devs, devs... :( :( :(

Here's what you're missing by not going to level 18 paladin

Paladin Exalted Smite IV
◦Prerequisites: Level 18 Paladin
◦Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. This enhancement also decreases your cooldown between smites to 2 seconds.

[Thrudh]

Oh, and Holy Sword is huge... saves you tons of money, and bypasses DR on everything (you can even make holy warhammers to bypass DR on Sorjek and other undead)

[Thelmallen]

I just reincarnated my pal12/rgr6/rog2 to make him pal18/monk2. Loss of zeal, holy sword, top auras, etc doesn't justify the deep multiclassing.

[FatalBagel]

You'd probably be better off with a Paladin 18/Monk 2.


I looked pretty hard at this, but the damage differences seemed pretty minimal:

Paladin: +9 on average from KotC III and Divine Might III. (not counting Ex.Smite IV vs. III)
Ranger: +6 from Favored Enemy

On the other hand, the ranger gains 4 AC (2 AC from Tempest, 1 AC from Dodge, 1 AC from Dex from saved AP) and Spring Attack. Plus, I don't have to worry about maintaining Zeal.

Still, these are pretty comperable. The main advantage I see is the stat freedom. By going Ranger, I don't have to worry about starting with an exceptionally high dex or charisma while still being able dual wield and max out my Divine Might.



FYI you need a BASE Dex of 17 to get GTWF (ITWF too if you don't have the 6 ranger levels)...

Ack! Thanks, I missed this. I'd have ITWF, but not GTWF. I guess that means I take TWD as well as Power Attack.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I looked pretty hard at this, but the damage differences seemed pretty minimal:

Paladin: +9 on average from KotC III and Divine Might III. (not counting Ex.Smite IV vs. III)
Ranger: +6 from Favored Enemy

On the other hand, the ranger gains 4 AC (2 AC from Tempest, 1 AC from Dodge, 1 AC from Dex from saved AP) and Spring Attack. Plus, I don't have to worry about maintaining Zeal.

Still, these are pretty comperable. The main advantage I see is the stat freedom. By going Ranger, I don't have to worry about starting with an exceptionally high dex or charisma while still being able dual wield and max out my Divine Might.

.

With training UMD you can use Sheild Wants (10th level) that will give you a +4 Sheild bonus to AC which is greater than the Tempest 1 bonus and won't stack with it.

[FatalBagel]

I just reincarnated my pal12/rgr6/rog2 to make him pal18/monk2. Loss of zeal, holy sword, top auras, etc doesn't justify the deep multiclassing.

Awesome! You're exactly the man I need to help talk me out of this!

It's probably worth it for holy weapon alone, but I have some cash to burn. Plus, you're giving up 10% tempest for 10% zeal, +3 or +4 AC from ranger for +1 Aura AC. As I posted above, you gain some DPS, but it seems fairly minimal. Am I wrong on that?

PS: In your original build, did you minimize your dex or did you take GTWF? Stats are obviously tight for a 32 pt build (or any build really). It seems like the improvement from ITWF to GTWF is really nice, but does it make up for the 7-10 stat points you have to put into dex at the start?

[Dylvish]

Awesome! You're exactly the man I need to help talk me out of this!

It's probably worth it for holy weapon alone, but I have some cash to burn. Plus, you're giving up 10% tempest for 10% zeal, +3 or +4 AC from ranger for +1 Aura AC. As I posted above, you gain some DPS, but it seems fairly minimal. Am I wrong on that?

PS: In your original build, did you minimize your dex or did you take GTWF? Stats are obviously tight for a 32 pt build (or any build really). It seems like the improvement from ITWF to GTWF is really nice, but does it make up for the 7-10 stat points you have to put into dex at the start?

I posted this on a previous thread as someone asked for a comparison breakdown between the two on a target (i placed it as a static target, and I hate those type of 'tests' but below is the basics on what each offers. Assuming its on an Evil Outsider or Undead (KoTC currently fully works on undead as well, although many say this is a bug so it may change in the future).

----------------------
Capstone = 3d6 vs EO / undead (1d6 against all other evil)
DM IV = +2 damage per level of DM, +8 at max. (should be noted here that DM IV is difficult to achieve, so may want to keep it at DM III for a better number avg).
Zeal = 10% haste (same as Tempest, so can effectively wipe each other for this test i think)
KoTC III = +4 hit, +4d6 damage vs EO (and currently vs undead as well)

----

Tempest I = 10% haste (+2 ac when dw, but I dont think that factors into the test you want here).
Favored Enemy (assuming atk and damage enhancements as well) = +1 hit, +10 damage
Ram's Might = +2 damage
DM II = +4 damage

----

If there is a lot of running around, SA will help the tempest.

So on a static test punching on an Evil Outsider dummy tied to a post:
#1 = 7d6 (23 avg) +8. So 31ish, not counting smites, DS, etc (which make up a lot of their spike damage).
#2 = 16.

The above is for a pure pally. You lose DM IV and Capstone if you go with 2 levels of Monk, but you get evasion, and possibly some AC (if you go that route with gear).

[Thelmallen]

Awesome! You're exactly the man I need to help talk me out of this!

It's probably worth it for holy weapon alone, but I have some cash to burn. Plus, you're giving up 10% tempest for 10% zeal, +3 or +4 AC from ranger for +1 Aura AC. As I posted above, you gain some DPS, but it seems fairly minimal. Am I wrong on that?

PS: In your original build, did you minimize your dex or did you take GTWF? Stats are obviously tight for a 32 pt build (or any build really). It seems like the improvement from ITWF to GTWF is really nice, but does it make up for the 7-10 stat points you have to put into dex at the start?

The zeal/Tempest swap is a wash as you said. You only get +2 AC from ranger (which is a shield bonus, btw). If you hit your UMD skill hard enough when leveling you'll be able to UMD a shield wand and get that +4 (for a net +2 gain over the Tempest).

In my original build, I put dex at 14 and had to wait for my 20th run to get lucky and pull a +3 dex tome. By the numbers, you're better off taking GTWF than even improved crit as you have up to a 25% chance of doubling your damage with improved, rather than increasing your DPS output by over 10% with GTWF. Plus the benefit to AC is significant. With the right gear, I'll be able to spike to around 73/74 AC on my reincarnate compared to high-50s on my original build.

I struggled with the stat allocation all last week, bugging the **** out of my guildies in the process. I elected to go with a lower strength/higher dex to get the better AC. You do give up some DPS that way but if you start with a 16 charisma, your smites hit hard and I always have divine sacrifice hot-keyed.

My starting stats were (and this is for a reincarnate, btw, so I got 2 extra stat points):
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 16

One last thing, I believe at rgr6, you only get +4 to favored enemies. Divine might III gives you +6 against everything.

[FatalBagel]

The zeal/Tempest swap is a wash as you said. You only get +2 AC from ranger (which is a shield bonus, btw). If you hit your UMD skill hard enough when leveling you'll be able to UMD a shield wand and get that +4 (for a net +2 gain over the Tempest).


As you and AylinIsAwesome have said, I missed the fact that Tempest AC is Deflection. Assuming a minor inconvenience with maintaining shield wands, the Dodge and Aura cancel each other out. There's a minor AC difference in +2 dex from Ranger AP, but I'm not sure I'd take it compared to some HP options. Advantage: None.


In my original build, I put dex at 14 and had to wait for my 20th run to get lucky and pull a +3 dex tome. By the numbers, you're better off taking GTWF than even improved crit as you have up to a 25% chance of doubling your damage with improved, rather than increasing your DPS output by over 10% with GTWF.

With monk feats, I wouldn't have to sacrifice Improved Crit. Plus, you're math is a little off in that you're talking about a 14.3% increase from GTWF (100% chance of an extra attack instead of 75% = 8/7), but that's still huge!


Plus the benefit to AC is significant. With the right gear, I'll be able to spike to around 73/74 AC on my reincarnate compared to high-50s on my original build.

I think my build would have comperable AC. I say "would", because you guys are doing a good job of talking me out of it. The main difference here is the transition from rogue to monk and the ability to take combat expertise. Plus, the lower dex and charisma means more stats for wisdom.


I struggled with the stat allocation all last week, bugging the **** out of my guildies in the process. I elected to go with a lower strength/higher dex to get the better AC. You do give up some DPS that way but if you start with a 16 charisma, your smites hit hard and I always have divine sacrifice hot-keyed.

My starting stats were (and this is for a reincarnate, btw, so I got 2 extra stat points):
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 16


I'm not sure I could handle reincarnating a 20 at this point, but at least you moved to a class that can make use of the extra stats! I'm jealous!


One last thing, I believe at rgr6, you only get +4 to favored enemies. Divine might II gives you that against everything.

For 3 AP, you get an additional +2 to favored enemies (Evil Outsiders and Undead most likely), but yeah...the extra +2 vs. non-favored opponents would be great.

Thanks so much for the response. I know this sounds a bit defensive, but it's half devil's advocate. The great input you guys have given me has me doubting this build.

[Dylvish]

For 3 AP, you get an additional +2 to favored enemies (Evil Outsiders and Undead most likely), but yeah...the extra +2 vs. non-favored opponents would be great.

Thanks so much for the response. I know this sounds a bit defensive, but it's half devil's advocate. The great input you guys have given me has me doubting this build.

To be fair, that Favored enemy bonus goes by char level to my knowledge, not by class level (I could be wrong there however). If that is the case, you are actually talking about +10 damage on favored enemies (2 from enhancement, 8 from feat, which you get +2 at start, 5, 10, 15, and 20).

Dont doubt the build itself. It is a viable one. Everyone here has very good points about the builds. And if you are min/maxing, I personally agree with everyone in that pure or 18/2 would be better. But if you are also pushing for concept and / or fun factor, go with what you envision. the 12/6/2 will probably work well.

[lord_of_rage]

I looked pretty hard at this, but the damage differences seemed pretty minimal:

Paladin: +9 on average from KotC III and Divine Might III. (not counting Ex.Smite IV vs. III)
Ranger: +6 from Favored Enemy

On the other hand, the ranger gains 4 AC (2 AC from Tempest, 1 AC from Dodge, 1 AC from Dex from saved AP) and Spring Attack. Plus, I don't have to worry about maintaining Zeal.

Still, these are pretty comperable. The main advantage I see is the stat freedom. By going Ranger, I don't have to worry about starting with an exceptionally high dex or charisma while still being able dual wield and max out my Divine Might.


Ack! Thanks, I missed this. I'd have ITWF, but not GTWF. I guess that means I take TWD as well as Power Attack.

You are forgetting the KOTC set from TOD that gives you an additional 3d6 against outsiders. You need KTOCIII for it. That puts the pally further ahead in dps #s and as mentioned you do lose holy sword as well.

[Dylvish]

You are forgetting the KOTC set from TOD that gives you an additional 3d6 against outsiders. You need KTOCIII for it. That puts the pally further ahead in dps #s and as mentioned you do lose holy sword as well.

And if you are pure pally for the capstone, thats on TOP of the already existing +7d6 on evil outsiders. Until the day they start changing up the type of mobs mostly found at endgame, that capstone is an insanely nice bonus to have. :)

[CSFurious]

i just started a wf pallie & am staying pure to have big dps at current end game

fight with thf line & dump dex

later

[PurdueDave]

Stats:
STR 26 = 15 Base + 3 Levels + 2 Tome + 6 Item
DEX 22 = 11 Base + 2 AP + 3 Tome + 6 Item
CON 26 = 16 Base + 2 AP + 2 Tome + 6 Item
INT 18 = 11 Base + 2 Tome + 5 Item
WIS 22 = 12 Base + 1 AP + 3 Tome + 6 Item
CHA 22 = 12 Base + 2 Levels + 2 AP + 2 Tome + 6 Item


Not on the build but for basic stat allocation...

STR 14 + 4 levels + yada yada
....
CHA 14 + 1 levels + yada yada

...gets you to a higher CHA or if you just want to wind up at the same place it frees up a build point.

edit - ignore this. Missed the WF race part.

[FatalBagel]

Not on the build but for basic stat allocation...

STR 14 + 4 levels + yada yada
....
CHA 14 + 1 levels + yada yada

...gets you to a higher CHA or if you just want to wind up at the same place it frees up a build point.

Not for warforged. Besides, with only 12 levels of pally, this only needs 16 charisma.

I agree on the strength drop, but I would now put the extra points into dex to make GTWF feasible.

[PurdueDave]

Not for warforged. Besides, with only 12 levels of pally, this only needs 16 charisma.

I agree on the strength drop, but I would now put the extra points into dex to make GTWF feasible.

You're right. Missed the WF part. My screwup.

[sultro]

i haven't seen anyone mention the loss of manyshot by taking away tempest. its cooldown is a pain, but its a handy gadget for some situations. i like it for when the blades come in, or when i have to range a target anyhow.

[Thelmallen]

i haven't seen anyone mention the loss of manyshot by taking away tempest. its cooldown is a pain, but its a handy gadget for some situations. i like it for when the blades come in, or when i have to range a target anyhow.

I will miss losing manyshot on my reincarnate, that's for sure.

[Thelmallen]

To be fair, that Favored enemy bonus goes by char level to my knowledge, not by class level (I could be wrong there however). If that is the case, you are actually talking about +10 damage on favored enemies (2 from enhancement, 8 from feat, which you get +2 at start, 5, 10, 15, and 20).

Dont doubt the build itself. It is a viable one. Everyone here has very good points about the builds. And if you are min/maxing, I personally agree with everyone in that pure or 18/2 would be better. But if you are also pushing for concept and / or fun factor, go with what you envision. the 12/6/2 will probably work well.

I'm nearly positive that FE damage is based on ranger level, not character level.

I don't want to make the OP think that the build is not viable. My tempest evasion paladin was my favorite character for a long time. The main reason that I reincarnated him was to be able to obtain a better AC with a monk splash and to be able to be more helpful in guild raids by having the max AC auras.

I had originally built him as an alternative to the ubiquitous ranger/fighter builds of a year or so ago, just to prove that a different build could achieve very similar DPS to those characters. However, having reincarnated my human dex-based ranger rogue into a strength-based halfling backstabbing 'exploiter' build, the tempest paladin was sort of redundant.