New DDO and Pally Player, planing on GR and new build

[KaiserKronos]

Hey guys, I read through a bunch of the buidlign a pally thread, great info, I wish I had read it before rolling my character.

That said, with the soon-to-be-released greater reincarnation I get a great do over switch and I intend to take advantage of it.

I was hoping to make a dwarf pure twf pally, using dwarven axes of course, that has a fair amount of survivability
I had a couple questions for you pros, but any other advice would be appreciated

for initial stats
16 str (+3 later from lvl ups)
15 dex
14 con
8 wis, int (t
14 char (+2 later from lvl ups, if i get a +4 tome i can get DM4)

I will have the cash to buy +2 tomes (already have str and char)

Should I try to put skill puts into umd even though my total score wouldnt be great, or through them into balance?

For weapons I am actually in the process of crafting GS, min II's with total benefits 30% healing amp, +3 con, and
4ac

for feats I was thinking

Knight of the chalice III -8
Dwarven axe hit/dmg -12
Bulwark of Good III -6
Courage of good II -3
Aura of saves I -1
Divine might III-6
Weapons of good- 2
Unyeilding Sov. II -6
Dwarven Con II-6
Paladin Charisma II -6
Extra Smite IV- 10
Exalted Smite 3- 6
Divine Sac I- 1 (this ability doesnt seem to scale that well, so it seemed easy to short change it)
Energy of the Templar II -2
Dwarven Faith I-1
Dwarven and Pally toughness I. -2
Armored agility 1 -1

For feats
Toughness, TWf-Greater Twf, Oversized Twf, (extend spell or improved healing meta), what do you think I should use?


I know being a dwarf is kinda gimped for twf pally wit the low charis, but while I am interested in making a good character I dont mind it not being a perfect character. So if his 90% gimp-less I think I could live with that.

Still any input you guys or girls had would be great, I'm new to DDO (this is my first toon, started in Nov.) and my first intro to D&D. Though I have MMO experience with a few years each of Guild Wars and WoW.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I've been trying to work over the stats for you, but I simply don't think it's possible to get the CHA on a TWF Dwarf Paladin high enough, while also having enough INT to train Balance (needed) and UMD (also needed) to 11 ranks and having enough STR to matter.

Are you adamant about going TWF, or would going THF be ok with you? Not quite as good as TWF for many of the Paladin abilities to be sure, but really it'd be impossible to have all the stats you would need on a TWF Dwarf Paladin unless you heavily invested in tomes or had TR.

With THF, you can start with stats of 16/8/14/10/8/16, with a level-up in CHA for Divine Might 4 with a +3 tome later. (Don't plan on a +4 unless you already have one or you plan on grinding a very, very long time for one.) One level-up in CHA, rest in STR. Should work nicely.

For feats, THF/ITHF/GTHF, Power Attack (was missing from your list below), Toughness, Extend and Improved Critical.

Also, Divine Sacrifice 3 is ENTIRELY EPIC. Even though it's only 2 extra dice, that's still an extra 7 light damage every 3 seconds, and even more if it crits. Take it all the way up. :)

Looking for AC on this build will just be a waste, really. You'll have a really hard time getting it up to a meaningful level, so I would suggest against taking Armored Agility. You also don't need Paladin CHA 1. Generally I just take the first level if I need to even out my score, or if I need it to have gotten the required number of APs spent before I can get better stuff. I'd also take Exalted Smite all the way up, since Exalted Smite is godly. You can drop things like Bulwark (it doesn't even help you at all anyway if you're a DPS build), Dwarven Faith (15 extra SP isn't worth it on an AP-starved class) or the saves aura (your saves will already be epic, trust me; I rarely fail on anything but a 1 [and the times I do fail on higher than a 1 I'm in Hard/Elite content above my level]). I'm not sure you can really afford Axe damage and Axe accuracy both... I'd probably drop the Axe Accuracy unless you wanted to do Epic content (but then if this was planned for Epic, he probably wouldn't be Dwarf...)


The other issue with going Dwarf is that Exalted Smites and Divine Sacrifices like to crit a lot. Since Axes have really poor critical ranges you won't get the full benefit out of them most of the time. Better to use Khopeshes, in my opinion (dropping Extend for it, since that's really just for convince).


Anyway, I hope that helps... Though I'd strongly recommend you did another race besides Dwarf for this. =\

[Hexanon]

Thanks Aylin for your thoughts.

I am in a similar boat to Kaiser (Currently THF Dwarf Paladin). I am also looking forward to Greater Rez to fix up my newbie bumblings (Among others rolling before I had a 32-pt character).

I really want to play a dwarf and a paladin. I must admit I read the advice of a few posts, and then climbed in and played and in a few days was lvl7. I am now lvl10 and realising I may have gimped myself.

I looked and tried a plan like the following:



Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 332
Spell Points: 246

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 15
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 12 13
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 16
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 2 3
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 2 3
Tumble n/a 4
Use Magic Device 5 15

Feat: Toughness
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: Extend Spell

Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III



This relies on a +2 int tome early (So I can dump this stat totally), a +2 Dex tome somewhere before GTWF and a +3 Cha tome to get DM4. I know the STR is a little low but some tomes in there it should work. Hell worse case I can sink a few DDO pts in +2 across the board if needed.

Questions:
1. Swap Extend Spell for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh along the way or just make do with Dwarven axes?
2 Is this severly gimped?
3. I play a lot solo and am starting to group a lot more lately
4. I do not want to tank
5. If I go 2HF It will look like below, however is it that much different Other than the STR boost?
6. I guess the enhancements are about teh same - stuff like Paladin Cha just to get pts for better stuff.



Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 246

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 19
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 15
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 21

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 1 14
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 4
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 4
Tumble n/a 0
Use Magic Device 5 16

Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell



Please can you (and others) comment on the build design..

I have tried to look for Dwarf builds but to no avail. - all builds seem to be around elf\human and even drow.

[blitzschlag]

Thanks Aylin for your thoughts.

I am in a similar boat to Kaiser (Currently THF Dwarf Paladin). I am also looking forward to Greater Rez to fix up my newbie bumblings (Among others rolling before I had a 32-pt character).

I really want to play a dwarf and a paladin. I must admit I read the advice of a few posts, and then climbed in and played and in a few days was lvl7. I am now lvl10 and realising I may have gimped myself.

I looked and tried a plan like the following:



Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 332
Spell Points: 246

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 15
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 12 13
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 16
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 2 3
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 2 3
Tumble n/a 4
Use Magic Device 5 15

Feat: Toughness
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: Extend Spell

Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III



This relies on a +2 int tome early (So I can dump this stat totally), a +2 Dex tome somewhere before GTWF and a +3 Cha tome to get DM4. I know the STR is a little low but some tomes in there it should work. Hell worse case I can sink a few DDO pts in +2 across the board if needed.

Questions:
1. Swap Extend Spell for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh along the way or just make do with Dwarven axes?
2 Is this severly gimped?
3. I play a lot solo and am starting to group a lot more lately
4. I do not want to tank
5. If I go 2HF It will look like below, however is it that much different Other than the STR boost?
6. I guess the enhancements are about teh same - stuff like Paladin Cha just to get pts for better stuff.



Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 246

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 19
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 15
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 21

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 1 14
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 4
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 4
Tumble n/a 0
Use Magic Device 5 16

Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell



Please can you (and others) comment on the build design..

I have tried to look for Dwarf builds but to no avail. - all builds seem to be around elf\human and even drow.

um, why you wanna go maximum charisma?

on a charisma weak race like warforged or dwarf id spent a maximum of 8 buildpoints (cha 13 + 3 tome = 16 base = divine might 2 somewhen). because for reaching prereq's for divine might 3 (let alone dm 4) you severly gimping your build.

i'd go

16
15 (eat +2 dex tome before getting imp twf)
14
10 (eat +2 int tome for more skillpoints at 7)
8
13

levelups in strength.

feats:
3 twf feats
toughness
imp crit
oversized twf (if you feel you can't hit the doorbarn)
extend (but not really needed)
empower healing (with some good gear this is really cool, cure medium for > 130 hp for 25 sp)


just some food for thought

[AylinIsAwesome]

um, why you wanna go maximum charisma?

Because higher CHA means more damage. Damage good.



on a charisma weak race like warforged or dwarf id spent a maximum of 8 buildpoints (cha 13 + 3 tome = 16 base = divine might 2 somewhen). because for reaching prereq's for divine might 3 (let alone dm 4) you severly gimping your build.

I think you're not paying attention to how important CHA is to Paladins. Pretty much everything Paladin at all has some sort of basis on CHA.


i'd go

16
15 (eat +2 dex tome before getting imp twf)
14
10 (eat +2 int tome for more skillpoints at 7)
8
13

levelups in strength.


What extra skills are you suggesting he train? Jump? Nice, but unnecessary. If he's already planning on munching tomes, then have a lower INT so you can pump CHA is a must.



feats:
3 twf feats
toughness
imp crit
oversized twf (if you feel you can't hit the doorbarn)
extend (but not really needed)
empower healing (with some good gear this is really cool, cure medium for > 130 hp for 25 sp)

Wait, what? Are you honestly suggesting feats for a Paladin without listing Power Attack, and instead listing Empower Healing? o_O







Questions:
1. Swap Extend Spell for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh along the way or just make do with Dwarven axes?
2 Is this severly gimped?
3. I play a lot solo and am starting to group a lot more lately
4. I do not want to tank
5. If I go 2HF It will look like below, however is it that much different Other than the STR boost?
6. I guess the enhancements are about teh same - stuff like Paladin Cha just to get pts for better stuff.


1. Er...probably. While the D.Axes will crit for much more when they do crit, the Khopesh will crit much more regularly, which I think is important because of the special attacks. You'll also get a tad more DPS out of Khopeshes than D. Axes, but in the end you can use which ever one you want, and feat-swap with Fred if you don't like your choice. I know a lot of people think it's sill for a Dwarf to use a Khopesh, so...
2. Not really. The main reason I shy away from Dwarves as Paladins is that the -2 CHA is hard to make up (though possible through tomes) and D. Axes don't have a lot of synergy well with Paladin abilities. But this is certainly workable, it would just take more work.
3. Not really a question. ;)
4. Not really a question either. Hehe
5. The main difference between THF and TWF on a Paladin is that THF is much easier on your stat points. You can get to a high STR and CHA without a lot of tomes on a THF, but a TWF needs several tomes to get there. In the end, the TWF will be more powerful because Paladin abilities are stacked to favour TWF, but whether or not people want to spend TP or grind for tomes is an issue.
6. The enhancement list looks alright for the most part. You don't really need things like Paladin Devotion since you won't have the SP to heal. If you decide to use Axes, be sure to spend some AP boosting their damage, with maybe the first level of Axe Attack if you can afford it. If you do manage to get the CHA for Divine Might 4, I'd say it's more important to get that than Paladin Toughness 4, especially if your purpose is to kill stuff, and not tank stuff for your party.


Just a final note... Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is a useless feat really, so never take that instead of something like Power Attack.

[KaiserKronos]

Thanks for the advice, I'm still pretty committed to playing a dwarf, would running a TR instead of a GR make this more feasible?
I seem to have enough enhancements to take points from the Pally Charisma/bulwark/saves aura, and armored agility into Exalted smite and divine sac.

Being a new player I am somewhat confused when Aylin says that my starting stats cant work, is DM4 superlatively important, is 8 int that bad, what strength should I be looking for a minimum. And I will be able to buy what ever +2 tomes I need, though if i TR I will lose the 2 +2s i have in charis and strngh

on that same note, what are the "cutoffs" for useful AC and saves utility?

Thanks for helping me out, and Im glad someone else can get their questions answered as well, DDO really does have a great community.

[blitzschlag]

Because higher CHA means more damage. Damage good.

apart from access to divine might charisma means + attack with smite evil, not more damage. also more hp's healed with LoH (ok, this can be counted as damage against undead)




I think you're not paying attention to how important CHA is to Paladins. Pretty much everything Paladin at all has some sort of basis on CHA.


apart from better saves and the stuff mentioned before, what does charisma do in ddo (we're not talking about d&d here).




What extra skills are you suggesting he train? Jump? Nice, but unnecessary. If he's already planning on munching tomes, then have a lower INT so you can pump CHA is a must.

jump, balance and umd are standard for anyone if you have the skillpoints.





Wait, what? Are you honestly suggesting feats for a Paladin without listing Power Attack, and instead listing Empower Healing? o_O

well, you got me, i forgot powerattack. did some epic questing lately, did you?



edit: youre one of those countless legions that proceed to repeat falsehoods on the advice channels, right?

[whomhead]

apart from access to divine might charisma means + attack with smite evil, not more damage. also more hp's healed with LoH (ok, this can be counted as damage against undead)


Higher levels in divine might gives more damage. Hitting more frequently with smites gives more damage.




apart from better saves and the stuff mentioned before, what does charisma do in ddo (we're not talking about d&d here).

jump, balance and umd are standard for anyone if you have the skillpoints.


UMD and intimidate are charisma based skills, so when you take the CHA modifier into account on those, they can perform quite well, or so I hear. This, in addition to the added damage and healing, is what charisma does for a paladin in DDO.

I'm quite sure that Aylin could answer all of this, but thought I would chime in since I was here.

[DrunkenBuddha]

apart from access to divine might charisma means + attack with smite evil, not more damage. also more hp's healed with LoH (ok, this can be counted as damage against undead)




apart from better saves and the stuff mentioned before, what does charisma do in ddo (we're not talking about d&d here).



jump, balance and umd are standard for anyone if you have the skillpoints.




well, you got me, i forgot powerattack. did some epic questing lately, did you?



edit: youre one of those countless legions that proceed to repeat falsehoods on the advice channels, right?

Uh, what downside do you see to not having a higher CHA? Sure, from a simplistic DPS analysis, losing STR eats away at DPS, but having Divine Might more than compensates, not to even get into the other benefits of higher CHA.

Fundamentally, the question is whether attributing those points to STR or whatnot in lieu of CHA is worthwhile. I would argue that it is not. CHA influences both survivability and DPS and UMD, whereas the points you would place in STR or any other stat, do not have as much 'bang for your buck.' This is not to say pump CHA and ignore the rest, but I think that to treat CHA as less important for a pally than it really is, is a bit shortsided.

The problem playing a dwarf or wf is the Cha penalty. Not to say it cant be overcome, but you are takin a hit in one of, if not the most, important stat. Sure you can pump STR/DEX/CON and TWF to your heart's content to the detriment of CHA, but then why not simply be a barb, ranger or fighter?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Thanks for the advice, I'm still pretty committed to playing a dwarf, would running a TR instead of a GR make this more feasible?
I seem to have enough enhancements to take points from the Pally Charisma/bulwark/saves aura, and armored agility into Exalted smite and divine sac.

Being a new player I am somewhat confused when Aylin says that my starting stats cant work, is DM4 superlatively important, is 8 int that bad, what strength should I be looking for a minimum. And I will be able to buy what ever +2 tomes I need, though if i TR I will lose the 2 +2s i have in charis and strngh

8 INT isn't horribly bad, but 2 skills that you really want to have are Balance and UMD. Balance because starting around level 8 things are going to start using trip attacks on you, and you want to get up again as fast as possible. Being on your back for too long means you die, or your Cleric/FvS runs out of mana fast. UMD is important so that you can use Raise Dead and Heal scrolls with a high degree of success. Training both of them to 11 ranks (since it's a cross-class skill) would require you to have 2 skill points per level, which is why 10 INT. A human can get away with 8 since they get a bonus skill point per level.

Divine Might 4 is one of the strongest short-term damage abilities in-game. It gives you +8 damage per weapon which adds up quickly over time. Even the difference between 3 and 4 (which is only 2) is still significant because an extra 2 damage per hit is still amazing. You'll see what I mean when you pick up Divine Might 1. :)



on that same note, what are the "cutoffs" for useful AC and saves utility?

For AC, I'm not 100% sure, since I never bother with AC on my characters. I've heard that an AC in the upper 50s will keep you pretty much untouchable on Normal content to level 20, and you want 70+ for harder stuff. Though I don't know for sure. You could probably find an AC thread somewhere on here that would have that information. :)



Thanks for helping me out, and Im glad someone else can get their questions answered as well, DDO really does have a great community.

Yep. :)


___________________________________



apart from access to divine might charisma means + attack with smite evil, not more damage. also more hp's healed with LoH (ok, this can be counted as damage against undead)

Wait, "apart from Divine Might"? So what, are we supposed to ignore the +8 stacking damage you get per weapon?



apart from better saves and the stuff mentioned before, what does charisma do in ddo (we're not talking about d&d here).

UMD is CHA based.
Saves.
LoH.
To-hit on Smites (important in Epic).
+8 damage from Divine Might 4.

So right, CHA is useless on a Paladin. Right.



jump, balance and umd are standard for anyone if you have the skillpoints.

Ok... Your point?

Training all those skills means he would need to have 3 skill points per level, or 12 INT. And we can't take points out of CHA, or CON...or STR...WIS is already at 8...DEX is needed if he goes TWF... Where is he going to magically get the ability to start with 12 INT here?




well, you got me, i forgot powerattack. did some epic questing lately, did you?


edit: youre one of those countless legions that proceed to repeat falsehoods on the advice channels, right?

Would you care to explain what "falsehoods" I'm "repeating" here? I said CHA = more damage. It does. I said CHA is important for pretty much anything a Paladin would do. It is.

Unless you can prove that I'm stating falsehoods here, all you're doing is trolling. Which is made pretty evident by the fact you suggested taking Empower Healing on a class that's highest cure spell is Cure Serious Wounds, and won't even get that until level 14 if they decided that CSW was better than Zeal (which no one in their right mind would).

[AylinIsAwesome]

uh, What Downside Do You See To Not Having A Higher Cha? Sure, From A Simplistic Dps Analysis, Losing Str Eats Away At Dps, But Having Divine Might More Than Compensates, Not To Even Get Into The Other Benefits Of Higher Cha.

Fundamentally, The Question Is Whether Attributing Those Points To Str Or Whatnot In Lieu Of Cha Is Worthwhile. I Would Argue That It Is Not. Cha Influences Both Survivability And Dps And Umd, Whereas The Points You Would Place In Str Or Any Other Stat, Do Not Have As Much 'bang For Your Buck.' This Is Not To Say Pump Cha And Ignore The Rest, But I Think That To Treat Cha As Less Important For A Pally Than It Really Is, Is A Bit Shortsided.

the Problem Playing A Dwarf Or Wf Is The Cha Penalty. Not To Say It Cant Be Overcome, But You Are Takin A Hit In One Of, If Not The Most, Important Stat. Sure You Can Pump Str/dex/con And Twf To Your Heart's Content To The Detriment Of Cha, But Then Why Not Simply Be A Barb, Ranger Or Fighter?

Qft.

[chipparoni87]

DM 4 requires 20 base cha and 4 ap. For 2 damage? Pallys are pretty starved for ability points: i think you would do better shooting for DM 3 and pumping all level up points into str. Esp if you are playing a class that gets a hit to cha. 16 cha + 2 tome gets you DM 3 without putting precious level-up points into it. Level ups in str ftw

[AylinIsAwesome]

DM 4 requires 20 base cha and 4 ap. For 2 damage? Pallys are pretty starved for ability points: i think you would do better shooting for DM 3 and pumping all level up points into str. Esp if you are playing a class that gets a hit to cha. 16 cha + 2 tome gets you DM 3 without putting precious level-up points into it. Level ups in str ftw

Most Paladins these days who focus on DPS are TWF.

So Divine Might 4 gives four extra damage. Two from each weapon.


That means that if I'm runing DM4 and you DM3 (but your STR is 2 higher than mine, since one extra point went into STR and you can make use of a +3 tome to better effect than I) then that means I'm doing three damage more than you per swing. Because the +2 STR will give you +1 damage on your main hand, but none on your off-hand (because the game rounds down). You might get lucky and that +2 STR gives your off-hand an extra point of damage as well, but that would depend on your items and tome usage.

So even going by me just having 2 extra damage per swing, after ten swings I've dealt 20 more damage than you. After 100 swings (very easy to get even in a short quest) that's 200 extra damage on you. That's why we take Divine Might 4.

[Hexanon]

Thanks for the discussions - being immensly helpful !

The hassle is a dwarf was chosen basically without acknowledgement of requirements. Started playing with friends without reading the forums for suggested builds.

So I am stuck with a dwarf and the inherant CHA penalty.

What is the reccomendation to get a 'best bang for your buck' dps dwarf with some surviveaility?

It appears that THF dps with dm4 sortof equal TWF dps with DM2/3..(given other damage mods/weapons for TWF vs. THF). Is this correct?
THF - best weapons have to be crafted - may be difficult for me - so choice would be greatsword - not a great weapon
TWF - less DM but great weapons
If I understand things correctly TWF will also give me added AC ((+3/+4)due to DEX) which is a plus solo

I can run a good DM2 TWF or a decent DM3 or a bad (CON/STR loss) DM4. Will this improve If I suck +2 tomes stat-wide at lvl7?
I doubt I will be grinding or ever have cash for +3 tomes (Luckily +2 tomes can be store-bought). I also worked out that it's better to put stat increases into CHA later on (3pt per increase gain) and STR up front to 16 (where 2pts per gain - an extra few CON )

TWF giving DM2
Pros:
+base damage
+AC

Cons:
No DM3/DM4

TWF DM2


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7


TWF DM3


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7


TWF DM4


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 19
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 10 12
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7


Which one at face value is a better build for damage?
and another QUESTION:is +1DEX worth 2CON - in order to get +4Dex bonus ?

THF giving DM4
Pros:
DM4

Cons:
-base damage
-AC



Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 12)
Strength 17 20
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 9 11
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

[KaiserKronos]

After everybody's input i decided to go for a TR instead to score 2 skill points per level and have a shot at DM4 with a +4 tome. Now to get to Lvl 12 and my GS axes...

Thanks for the help everyone knowing that Oversized TWF is garbage and and some restructuring of my enhancements will help out a bunch

[Plutocracy]

Most Paladins these days who focus on DPS are TWF.

So Divine Might 4 gives four extra damage. Two from each weapon.


That means that if I'm runing DM4 and you DM3 (but your STR is 2 higher than mine, since one extra point went into STR and you can make use of a +3 tome to better effect than I) then that means I'm doing three damage more than you per swing. Because the +2 STR will give you +1 damage on your main hand, but none on your off-hand (because the game rounds down). You might get lucky and that +2 STR gives your off-hand an extra point of damage as well, but that would depend on your items and tome usage.

So even going by me just having 2 extra damage per swing, after ten swings I've dealt 20 more damage than you. After 100 swings (very easy to get even in a short quest) that's 200 extra damage on you. That's why we take Divine Might 4.

I think DM IV is better to at level 20, but some more things about +2 more STR:

1) Divine Might is an activated ability, not a passive one. And activating it takes a not insignificant amout of time, about 4 or 5 swings worth of damage if hasted. Its worth it of course, but just saying.

2) +2 Strength gives you an extra +1 to hit over the extra +2 CHA, thats something.

3) If you like to combat feats, +1 DC

4) The VAST majority of the game is from level 1-19, not level 20. For those first 19 levels, the +2 strength is giving you loads of extra damage. Add up ALL that extra damage you will be doing in those first 19 levels, it will take a long time for DM 4 to catch up at level 20. You only get DM 4 for one level in your career. This game is about playing it as a journey, not about an end goal where "you finally start playing for real at level 20". Seriously, it will take an immense amount of time to get to level 20, and that entire time you will benefit from extra damage and to hit with STR.

But yeah, DM IV is better at level 20.

[Uhtred_Stark]

One thing I'll add as I'm leveling my Paladin. I wouldn't ignore Bulwark of Good or Resistance of Good. You can always change your enhancements later and I have found the AC and save boosts to be extremely helpful from level's 4-8. Of course I still use a shield even though I am going TWF (changing at L9). But you can get AC to make yourself, along with laying on hands and a few cure light wounds wands virtually unkillable if played smartly.

And exaulted smite rocks. I can't believe how much damage it does on crits.

Would like more dps pros on divine sacrifice if possible to Aylin. I don't use it much now and was considering not going past L2.