The Monk and Epic Weapons

[MarcusCole]

With the stats for the epic Sword of Shadow released, I have become quite frustrated with the lack of greensteel or more importantly Epic monk weapons. I see the difficulty here as everything which has/will be recieving the Epic makeover, far outdates the Monk class. While the ToD rings and the past life feat were a huge boost for monks there is still nothing that can compare with the epic SoS or Xuum.

Thoughts and comments would be apriciated.

[Angelus_dead]

There are some epic quarterstaves, but for an unknown reason the devs neglected to give them even the standard default epic weapon upgrades.

They added Combustion to a melee item (Xuum), but would they throw a bit of burst damage onto Tinder or Arcane Power? No....

[MarcusCole]

I can't think of anything other than inroducing some new named handwraps into the desert or VoN (even Gianthold would do, if only to let us know that its comming.)

Edit: possably Red Dragonscale handwraps?

[Fafnir]

There needs to be epic handwraps. There is no comparison, particularly given the crit range and x4 multiplier on it etc.

[rimble]

I can't think of anything other than inroducing some new named handwraps into the desert or VoN (even Gianthold would do, if only to let us know that its comming.)

Edit: possably Red Dragonscale handwraps?

It'd just be nice to have something to work towards. I know ToD is one thing to work towards, but it's oh so slow going. I'm getting tired of running the easy Level 18/19 quests to ransack (on both the chests and end rewards) trying to find worthwhile handwraps while everyone else can jog 6+ toons through Shroud and get pimped out by level 15. Monks still using random dropped weapons is kind of refreshing, but at the same time it's so...I dunno, binary...either something awesome drops, or doesn't...no gradual progress to make towards a goal (like working up to Greensteel). When I end a night having spent a couple hours ransacking the quests and have nothing to show for it other than a few pp from the vendors, it kinda sucks.

[SolarDawning]

I briefly brought this up on page 2 of the Sword of Shadow thread, as well.

Essentially, if monks are perceived by the community as having anemic damage even with a base 2d12 die on a reincarnate with a feat, how can we keep up with epic content? New quarterstaves and kamas won't cut it, either.

There really have to be epic handwraps of some sort, or even just the addition of greensteel mesh handwraps. And I highly doubt that greensteel handwraps would be unbalancing on a monk, rather greensteel handwraps and ToD rings together would be required for viability in epic content.

[Timjc86]

I just need to stay off the monk forums. I attempted to thoughtfully offer some of my own thoughts, but I just worked myself into a thorough frustration.

I'll just quickly say that this is nothing new. The monk class seems like a distant last thought on the developers' minds at every turn. Greensteel weave handwraps have YET to be implemented (and there are currently no plans to even do so).

Most of the content in DDO was around before monks ever were and consequently especially useful monk items are rare/non-existent.

The content that has been released since monks have been around has been noticeably void of anything particularly useful to monks (with a few RARE exceptions like the Devout Handwraps, which only further proves my point).

ToD rings are about the only meaningful named loot monks have yet to see, however they force players to choose between +2 exceptional stats (of which an average monk could easily make good use of no less than four) and dps effects that all the other classes already have.

It should be clear that I am not holding my breath on upgradeable epic monk items when even decent non-epics are simply not here.

I don't see how Turbine can justify charging people money to unlock the monk "class".

I might just take my past life damage feat and run for the epic SoS lined hills of the frenzied berserker.

[SolarDawning]

What would really help is this:
Greensteel handwraps with an innate higher damage die.
On a level 20 monk, 2d12.
On a level 20 monk with the reincarnate feat, 4d8.

I have no idea why greensteel handwraps were omitted in the first place.

[MarcusCole]

My only thoughts on the omission of GS weave handwraps is the power of the old transmuting for monks.

[lyeman]

IIRC, there are code problems with greensteel handwraps that are either insurmountable or they just don't want to bother, but between metalline and the mindsunder weapons, the transmuting effects are acquirable, if not easily gotten or in a small, convenient package, and the DPS issue has been addressed, even if four of the five new abilities are ****.

[Riggs]

My monk cries a lot.

[Timjc86]

and the DPS issue has been addressed

In what way?

Are you saying that monk dps is where it should be relative to other melee dps classes?

[atxken]

everyone keeps saying were suppose to be a support class. BUT the light monks buffs are A) too sort in duration B) not enough benefit. Dark monks in update 3 are getting a decent attack. But to take us close to other classes we require to have the good gear. otherwise were considered just average. the free tier1 stances is nice but still doesnt bring us on par with other classes. whether it be as a suport or dps unless lke i said we have uber gear then can match others that only have semi uber gear.

[mandanbar]

What would really help is this:
Greensteel handwraps with an innate higher damage die.
On a level 20 monk, 2d12.
On a level 20 monk with the reincarnate feat, 4d8.
.

I think you may out dps all other classes then

[Auran82]

In what way?

Are you saying that monk dps is where it should be relative to other melee dps classes?

Obviously the DPS issues are solved, by getting your monk an Epic SoS.

Then TRing to a FB Barbarian or Kensai Fighter.

[sinedist]

I see that there are efforts being made to correct the issues that have come up time and time again in the forums, and there is something to be said for this; however, I'm coming, time and time again, to wonder why exactly the class on the whole is being given such sparse and uninspired treatment by the developers. I've now brought two monks to cap, and feel that I can speak with some intelligence and experience about the class... but seeing the new epic content being released, the new epic weapons, and the large gap in DPS between monks and the other melee classes is bringing me to a state where I'm just going to give up on the class as a whole.

Monks are, of course, viable. When it comes to a 100% fortification enemy, the class is top tier. But there is a lot of content that currently exists that isn't... well... portals. There are claims that the developers are attempting to fix the plethora of issues that plague the class, and make the class one that a great number of people are biased against... and it's when you consider what these fixes are that you see just how lack-luster said fixes are.

Honestly, I feel as though I'm supposed to be happy with the recent changes to the monk class, but all I see are uninspired "fixes" to long-standing problems while so many other classes are getting new boosts that raise the bar even farther from the monk class.

1) Dark Path: while this fix is working toward making the choice between dark and light a more balanced choice (an actual choice?), one has to ask if a 33.3 DPS increase (assuming you can maintain enough ki while consistently expending ki via spamming elemental strikes (where a significant portion of the monk's DPS arises from and a huge ki expenditure in and of itself)) is worth the cost of 12 AP on an already AP starved class, the inability to heal, and the loss of group buffs. Certainly, the case can now be better made for choosing the Path of Inevitable Dominion, but has the class been given anything as a boon with this change? I do not believe so, sadly.

2) Monk Action Points: This is, more than many, an AP starved class -- even without a single PrE. As a pre-emptive strike, the recent mod is granting the first tier of stances automatically. At best, monks are given a maximum of 4AP back. This "gift" of 4AP has now resulted in needing to select arbitrary enhancements (which then take up a good portion of the 4AP monks were given as a corrective). Is the 12AP cost of Touch of Death lightened by this change? Are monks really supposed to look forward to trying to fit a PrE and all of its prerequisites into the class because a maximum of 4AP were freed? I fail to see how this change has really made any headway toward addressing the numerous complaints that have been lodged against its structure.

3) Weighted: Still not fixed, despite Stunning Fist being one of the most central features of the class. This problem has been around, from what I've read in the forms, for years.

4) Greensteel/Metalline Wraps and the ToD Rings: The biggest adversary to a Monk's DPS, that keeps it from being even realistically comparable to that of all other melee classes is their lack of criticals. I can understand this, and I can even make a case for why this is deployed as a balancing feature. The ToD rings were put in place to offset the fact that greensteel wasn't/isn't going to happen. One of the largest appeals to greensteel weaponry, however, is the importance of DR bypass end-game.

Am I to believe that adding 3d6 (2d6 Holy and 1d6 Shocking) to my damage is really a substitute for greeensteel handwraps? For some enemy DR, the monk not only needs to sacrifice a high damaging prefix on his/her wraps for metalline (which has a raised ML already (from 6 on all other weapons to ~8-10 for wraps, making finding, now that they are even dropping(!), a decent pair of metalline wraps nigh impossible and even further from all other melee weapons deemed viable in-game), but they must sacrifice exceptional stat bonuses (stats, like AP, being pulled so tight) or other features in order to merely bypass enemy DR.

Personally, I fail to see how the addition of ToD rings has "fixed" such problems. They are a step, certainly... but how much of one? How much, gear wise, does the monk need to sacrifice in order to arrive at levels even approximating the other melee classes? Comparably, at least, monks are expected to give up the kinds of bonuses that all other classes have access to because some of them desire to bypass DR...! Oi. Unless of course one wishes to continue to use the only currently in-game named pair of handwraps, a level 8 pair of handwraps, in epic quests or against harry. Devout handwraps were the huge bone monks were thrown because of these class issues?

5) Named Wraps: This is my last point, and perhaps the most upsetting for me. Without greensteel handwraps, the monk class needs named wraps to even begin really fixing the growing DPS gap between them and all other melee classes. The deployment of the Devouts (albeit as a rare drop in one of the most despised chains in the game) began to recognize this. I had a great deal of hope at that point... it seemed as though the developers were finally reacting to the community. It said, "we hear you" and the Devouts were a signifier for changes to come.

So, after seeing the release notes, what are the changes to come? More named handwraps. All deplorably useless beyond level 12, all utterly cheap and absolutely irrelevant end-game. So low level monks get some more chains to run for gear that is almost immediately outdated. Meanwhile, items like Epic Xuum and Epic SoS are being dropped.

Monks feel cheated, and a number of people in this forum seem to agree that this cheated feeling is mutual.

DESPITE all of these issues, players are making monks work. This demonstrates just how well loved the class is. Players are working with what little they have been given, and are just barely eking by as a result.

But when I see items like the Epic SoS, when monks were just recently given the possibility of overcoming metal/alignment based DR at a number of costs that no other classes are required to make, I feel like the developers have just given up on making the class comparable -- on making the class viable.

Watching release notes pouring out while hoping to see this beloved class improved upon, because some people are tired of seeing pure barbs and kopeshes, is getting to be too quixotic for me.

Sorry for the length.

[MarcusCole]

That was exactly the kind of post I was planning on making, but then my lunch break ended (if one could call it that) :P

[SolarDawning]

Sinedist, your post should be considered required reading. Very insightful analysis.
+1 rep.

[Angelus_dead]

this fix is working toward making the choice between dark and light a more balanced choice (an actual choice?), one has to ask if a 33.3 DPS increase (assuming you can maintain enough ki, and are facing a cursable opponent, and are able to use this attack while consistently expending ki via spamming elemental strikes (where a majority of the monk's DPS arises from and a huge ki expenditure))
1. Death Touch does not require cursing the enemy.
2. It would be quite a pathetic Monk if elemental strikes are the majority of his DPS.

[sinedist]

1. Death Touch does not require cursing the enemy.
2. It would be quite a pathetic Monk if elemental strikes are the majority of his DPS.

Oi. Angelus, of course, you are correct. I had conflated the prereqs for Touch of Death with the ki strike itself.

In regard to the second, you are right as well. While the elemental strikes are certainly not the majority of a monk's dps, as I had stated, those strikes significantly compose monk DPS. No more late night unintended hyperbole from me! Promise!

I've corrected my post, mate. Cheers.

Technical missteps on my behalf aside, I feel as though my sentiment carries, and that the difference between the monk class and other classes is that, where other classes are now seeing drops that serve as exciting tributes and rewards, monks are being given uninspired (and even unsatisfactory) "fixes" for very very old issues.

[MarcusCole]

It would be nice if we could at least get some confirmation that these issues are goin to be addressed. Turbine gives us Silver-threaded handwraps and expects us to be happy when they give other melee classes the epic Sword of Shadow? Really?

[QuantumFX]

At first, the epic SoS bothered me but then I realized something: The developers appear to be working on epic versions of all the current content. In the short term it means that we are going to see a lot of emphasis on old gear and old gear means old playstyles are going to see a boost initially. (Which is exactly what we’re seeing with THF right now.) However, they will move on to other content and that means stuff for players other than the THF types. (ex. Epic Allegiance) (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Epic_Allegiance)

[Reyjak]

If the Epic DQ raids are any indication how they are going to do the epic gear then once they have Epic Abbot I deffinatly forsee Epic Devout Handwraps.........yummy.

[Tuney]

Yeah... but still means you'll have to get the normal Handwraps BUHAHA!!

[MarcusCole]

At first, the epic SoS bothered me but then I realized something: The developers appear to be working on epic versions of all the current content. In the short term it means that we are going to see a lot of emphasis on old gear and old gear means old playstyles are going to see a boost initially. (Which is exactly what we’re seeing with THF right now.) However, they will move on to other content and that means stuff for players other than the THF types. (ex. Epic Allegiance) (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Epic_Allegiance)

The epic SoS does not bother me at all for precisely those reasons, but what does bother me is that there are no named handwraps in the Desert, VoN, GH, and Vale (greensteel, yes epic greensteel is comming). so in all of the epic content we will have one... One Set of decent named handwraps (the devouts) to put against epic xuum, SoS, Chaosblade, Min II, Allegiance, Greenblade, Unwavering Ardency, Cloudburst, etc.

[Greydeath]

they just don't want to bother

and that is why we have Monk issues to begin with :rolleyes:

[Delacroix21]

The epic SoS does not bother me at all for precisely those reasons, but what does bother me is that there are no named handwraps in the Desert, VoN, GH, and Vale (greensteel, yes epic greensteel is comming). so in all of the epic content we will have one... One Set of decent named handwraps (the devouts) to put against epic xuum, SoS, Chaosblade, Min II, Allegiance, Greenblade, Unwavering Ardency, Cloudburst, etc.


This is exactly what bothers me as well, and I am not comforted by the thought that changes to the monk class are coming "soon".




I was here in Beta and the head start of DDO, and was waiting for the monk class since release (which was originally promised in the first mod). It took more then a YEAR+ for me to finally get my favorite class in all of DnD. I play monks in every game I play including non-DnD games such as Oblivion. So you can imagine my ire when monks where released with TWF feats not effecting them, numerous handwrap bugs, not a single raid dropped handwrap, and most of all NO greensteel handwraps!


I have been a very vocal fighter for monk love, and my anger over the class often shows in my posts. I AM glad that "some" changes have been made to the class, but they are few and far between. I honestly have no idea why these issues have not been addressed as monks are the FIRST new class to DDO in all the games 3 year history!


SInce their release, monks dps has been a big concern. The original monk's unarmed dps was so low it wouldnt even match a sword and board characters dps (twf feats did not add extra attacks at the time). Given monks dps issues one would think some PrEs could help, but for some reason the high dps classes where all given tier 3 PrEs first. This of course has only widened the dps gap to make monks look even worse by comparison. In regular DnD (not min/max) the monks very high base damage is supposed to make up for his dookie crit range and multiplier. But now with weapons like Epic Sting having a 2d12 base damage, we can easily seen that the advantage has gone bye bye. http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Epic_Sting


I am clearly not as articulate as Sined, but to sum up my rambling monks need=

1. PrEs (well every class does)
2. Issues fixed (handwraps with wrong min lvl, weighted/stunning fist)
3. Pick a few raids and add a handwrap, kama, or non-caster quarterstaff to them
4. Recode unarmed (basically make handwraps an actual weapon, with monks gaining feats that increas their unarmed dps at each level, dont mind if this requires stone of change as long as it doesnt bind them)
5. Greensteel handwraps (see above)
6. Fix unarmed range (this is mainly a problem when moving, range is to short)
7. Add some Epic Handwraps (of course after regular ones added)

[mjrepro]

How about just adding a +1 Crit multiplier to your ToD ring after crafting is complete? Would that not help with the greensteel complaint?

[MarcusCole]

How about just adding a +1 Crit multiplier to your ToD ring after crafting is complete? Would that not help with the greensteel complaint?

It would improve the situation but not in any way resolve it. you are still using up a +2 exceptional stat slot, to achieve what most classes get from a weapon. This also still leaves the problem of no epic wraps, and no greensteel for transmuting/uber.

[atxken]

plus the fact tod ring is lvl 18, and you can get gs lvl 11, major difference there especially if you TR.
personally i think our dmg dice should change to d4 or even d2, so at 20 we are looking at 5d4 or 10d2, which would bring up our low end dmg, off setting our few and low crits.

[sinedist]

Marcus and Atxken are absolutely spot on. One of the central issues is the lateness in the game with which monks are able to acquire what is, for other classes, a given (DR bypass), which is then tied to the sacrifice with which this bypass arises (+2 exc. stat on a multi-ability class).

Another is, as Delacroix21 stated, the absolute permission to allow unfixed issues involved with unarmed weaponry to remain (the lack of added DC for "weighted" is an excellent example).

The only explanations for the issues here in discussion (that I can conceive of, for whatever that is worth since I have time to kill) are:

1) Coding: perhaps it is as has been speculated: monks/unarmed-weapons have been coded in an entirely separate manner from all other classes/weapons, and there are complications inherent to the class/weapons as a result. If this is the case, then the only solution would be (yet another) overhaul to the coding that informs the class... And given the direction that Turbine has taken the game (F2P, creating a larger userbase), if coding is the issue then fixes to these problems will be a much much longer way off. Maybe just roll a barbarian or a fighter, since the Devs throw something great their way almost every single update?

2) Their Business Model: if, as some have observed, class changes occur on the basis of consumer demand (thus, changes effect more deeply and more frequently those classes with which the majority of the game's population are currently using), then updates featuring changes to underused classes (like wizards/monks in the coming Update 3) will help to garner fresh interest in the class. While this is good, hoping for a change by means of consumer interest and market response is grossly less effective for a product of this type than using a much more responsive and efficient problem-solving response framework. We will probably remain stuck in the "only a few people use the class because it's partially broken, therefore we should pander fixes and updates to the majority of people playing other classes" cycle.

3) Memory and Forgetfulness: I would love to say that this forum is helping to remind the developers of the investment and interest that a number of members of this community appear to hold for the monk class. Sadly, I can't quite pretend that they could simply be forgetting the grossly late fixes that the monk class is in need of. Could the developers be forgetting about this class, mod after mod after mod -- complaint post after complaint post after complaint post? Probably not. I miss the days of technical artistry, when the emphasis was on the refinement of the product not profit.

4) The Paranoia Claim: Maybe monks already have the potential for the highest DPS in the game (seeing numbers for 100%-75% fort. enemies, it's possible... hah!), meaning the Devs are terrified by the pure potential of the monk to greatly unbalance the game (unbalancing strike?!) by means of any beneficial changes to the monk class.

As ridiculously frail as the last reason is, I could see how one could easy start to think this way... why else would monks only get benefits (recently) that come with qualitatively equal sacrifices?

I dunno, forumites... Thinking about this stuff is frustrating. I've been at the point of trying to give the Devs legitimate reasons for the choices they make, when really what upsets me most is the decline of games as products of art. Starcraft made an excellent case for the ability of a game to last because of its closeness to mastery of balance.

To me, that's the irony... the class characteristically dedicated to attention to enlightment and balance is marred with unbalanced neglect.

[MarcusCole]

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to sinedest again."

:(

At this point all I would ask for is some reply from the dev team as to
A) Why they have been neglecting monks like this
B) What plans are there to improove the situation
C) if there are no current plans, than an explanation as to why this is true.

if only someone in Turbineland was watching.....

*looks around hopefully*

[Delacroix21]

I like Sined.. :D


I know the problem with handwraps revolves around the coding of them, as they enhance the monk and do not count as a weapon themselves. But I was thinking if monks got a feat at each unarmed tier that added 1d4 (for a total of 5d4 at 20, 6d4 with past life). This would increase overall dps, make handwrap coding easier, and allow greensteel.


Greensteel (and epic) handwraps would then change the "size" of the monks unarmed die from 1d4 to 1d6. Thus a level 20 monk with greensteel/epic handwraps would do 5d6 damage unarmed! (perhaps even 5d6 greensteel, 5d8 epic?). That way the lower crit range and multiplier would be far less of an issue, and monks would truly shine against high fortification enemies, yet still fall behind on mobs with low fortification.


It may seem high but I find the epic version rather balanced against 4d6 18-20x4 sword of shadows.

[MarcusCole]

Well hopefully Turbine will decide to keep thier dedicated players informed about how they are planning to resolve/lessen this problem.

[Riggs]

The apparently main issue about NOT making GS wraps was that there was coding issues regarding adding transmuting etc to handwraps.

We now have random (rarely) and named wraps currently IN THE GAME, including even now silver and cold iron. Tod rings can add damage to fist damage(except the Ravager set)

So it seems the main, and only real reason GS handwraps were not added has been fixed - and no longer exists.

So - if the coding issue is fixed - where are the GS handwraps?

Or is this another one of Turbines 'we have the content, but we are going to maybe release it later because marketing said so' (re: GR being delayed for no actual given reason other than "Surprise! its not in Update 3 anymore").

**edit - and regarding the added damage from greensteel....I think its safe to say no one really cares if the damage die gets bigger, or what method is used to add damage. The ability to simply add damage - as in say the Tempest Tod ring set - is also in the game. So simply have GS add a d4 damage or whatever, or a static +3 say. That coding also exists in the game now, today.

[Riggs]

And of course....the lack of epic monk weapons is also full of unhappiness.

Maybe Turbine feels no one levels their monks past level 8. Hence the the only named items just added being anything other than useful to level 4-8 characters...barely. Well with the exception of a single set, that only drops in a super annoying end chest of a super annoying set of quests....but its still level 8.

[Delacroix21]

Bump for justice.


If every new update is going to include more and more epic weapons monks will become more and more depressed with each update. Sorry to say that adding a couple level 4-8 handwraps each update isnt helping the situation at all.


Pick either Von or Demonqueen and add a handwrap please.

[MarcusCole]

Definitely, This needs attention. Also The ki strikes are costing MORE now than they did before. I"m trying to understand the logic here:

Let's see....

Monk DPS is gimped currently due to many reasons.
Monk elemental strikes help significantly.
Hey I got a great idea!!!
Lets give monks some lowbie gear to make them more viable there and then NERF the elemental strikes to gimp the endgame monks even More!
This way people will see powerful lowbie monks, buy the monk package, get to endgame and realize they are gimped and buy a True Heart of Wood to TR to another class that actually gets attention from the devs.

Sorry for the rant as I do not usually get angry like this but I've been screwed with enough by turbine today so I'm gonna get all my ranting out now.

[ivanbss]

"Issues fixed (handwraps with wrong min lvl, weighted/stunning fist)"

Whats wrong with Weighted items ?

[MarcusCole]

"Issues fixed (handwraps with wrong min lvl, weighted/stunning fist)"

Whats wrong with Weighted items ?

weighted handwraps do not increase the stunning fist DC. other weighted items do but not wraps.

[Timjc86]

weighted handwraps do not increase the stunning fist DC. other weighted items do but not wraps.

And you can't use Stunning Fist with other items. Once you step back from the situation a little bit, it's actually quite funny.

[MarcusCole]

And you can't use Stunning Fist with other items. Once you step back from the situation a little bit, it's actually quite funny.

Exactly stunning FIST requires unarmed but the only weapons that weighted is not working correctly on are unarmed.

[MarcusCole]

Beta Urgotz Meta Phase :\

[sinedist]

Those are some crazy words you have there, mate.

[MarcusCole]

Beta Urgotz Meta Phase :\

First 4 words I could think of starting with BUMP -_-

[rest]

First 4 words I could think of starting with BUMP -_-

Bring
Up
My
Post


?

[SolarDawning]

In the interest of further discussion on this topic, I suggest that my monk (and only my monk), be given handwraps made of lasers.
Said handwraps will shoot flaming bears with every attack. Bears, which as they burn, will descend upon my foes in a furious rage, firing yet more lasers from their eyes. Eye-lasers, which will consist of my fists.

[sinedist]

I, too, would like said flaming lazer bear-fist-eye fist lazer handwraps.

That be the stuff of gods.

[Timjc86]

In the interest of further discussion on this topic, I suggest that my monk (and only my monk), be given handwraps made of lasers.
Said handwraps will shoot flaming bears with every attack. Bears, which as they burn, will descend upon my foes in a furious rage, firing yet more lasers from their eyes. Eye-lasers, which will consist of my fists.

So you punch... which shoots bears... which shoot your fists (in laser form)...

which shoot bears... which shoot your fists (in laser form)....

This sounds like one of those three-mirror setups at the female clothing stores where you look at yourself look at yourself look at yourself look at yourself....

I'm going to go lie down. My head hurts.

[MarcusCole]

precisely

[teapotdome]

In the interest of further discussion on this topic, I suggest that my monk (and only my monk), be given handwraps made of lasers.
Said handwraps will shoot flaming bears with every attack. Bears, which as they burn, will descend upon my foes in a furious rage, firing yet more lasers from their eyes. Eye-lasers, which will consist of my fists.


i actually had to log in just to rep you for this. well done sir!

[SolarDawning]

Why, thank you muchly!
In terms of epic content, as the thread is on the subject, is anyone looking forward to aquiring any epic VoN items in particular? I'd love the red dragon robe myself, but haven't been lucky enough to pull a red single scale yet. Though, I did get a killing blow on epic Velah, which is fun bragging rights. With a Touch of Death, no less.

[MarcusCole]

got 2 scales and the shard ^_^ also waitin on the shard for my belt.

[Auran82]

The funniest thing about touch of death, is that the monk is like "Wow, 500 damage, woooo" meanwhile the FB Barbarian beside him is probably doing that much damage on each 19 or 20.

Its looking more and more like they are scared to release more handwraps because they are only used by one class, a quarterstaff however can be used by more.

And GS handwraps? Stuff the damage increase, just let me craft the other bonuses on them.

[Xionanx]

My thoughts on the subject boil down to this:

Some dev decided it would be "easier" to code their unarmed damage as a class granted feature rather then a level check on handwraps. :rolleyes:

Because of this brilliant individual, monk handwraps and thier functionality has since been boned big time and what was originally percieved as an "easy" way to do it has since turned into the hardest possible way to do it.

Look to the above to statements to understand why monks dont have greensteele wraps and why its possible for IDENTICAL handwraps to have completely different minimum level requirments and thier total + does not match up to any other type of random weapons of the same level range.

What gets me is that since that initial mistake was made, someone hasn't made an attempt to revist the coding and correct it. I know it would be a major undertaking to completely recode the way monk unarmed damaged is calculated, but making the effort to do it would solve so many problems down the road.

[kryisis98]

If only Chuck Morris was a Dev....hmmmm

[hu-flung-pu]

If only Chuck Morris was a Dev....hmmmm

Is that Zach Morris' brother?

And the one way they could fix the problem is if I could tie two halfling monks together by their feet and whip them around like a pair of nunchuks.

[kryisis98]

lol Norris...Chuck is the only person in the world that can hit you in the back of the face

[MarcusCole]

I think we need a handwrap equivalent to the epic Sword of Shadow:

+6
Weighted 5%
Metaline
19-20/x3
Greater Good
Flaming-lazereyed-bear-shooting

[oweieie]

The funniest thing about touch of death, is that the monk is like "Wow, 500 damage, woooo" meanwhile the FB Barbarian beside him is probably doing that much damage on each 19 or 20.

I find it funny how everything epic is deathwarded, but almost nothing (non-undead) has any sort of fortification. I guess when they craft Minos Legens for mobs they skip the fort for a quadruple helping of HPs. I'm getting sick of chewing though mountains of HPs even if most of the mobs are all perma-stunned by 5% weighted.

[Fafnir]

My monk wants proper handwraps.

:eek:

[Delacroix21]

I think we need a handwrap equivalent to the epic Sword of Shadow:

+6
Weighted 5%
Metaline
19-20/x3
Greater Good
Flaming-lazereyed-bear-shooting

I would change that a bit more to match the epic sword of shadow=

+10
weighted 8% (Only weapon in DDO with this! helps make up for no unarmed increase)
20/x4 (traded crit range increase on sword of shadow for weighted to be fair)
Empty Colorless, Empty Red slot.


Dropped the greater good as thats unfair (we will use a tod ring) yet kept the 2 slots as we cant equip 2 handwraps. Also dropped metaline as its unfair (can make the weapon silver anyway with slot).

[jwelch]

I would change that a bit more to match the epic sword of shadow=

+10
weighted 8% (Only weapon in DDO with this! helps make up for no unarmed increase)
20/x4 (traded crit range increase on sword of shadow for weighted to be fair)
Empty Colorless, Empty Red slot.


Dropped the greater good as thats unfair (we will use a tod ring) yet kept the 2 slots as we cant equip 2 handwraps. Also dropped metaline as its unfair (can make the weapon silver anyway with slot).

But...but...YOU DROPPED THE FLAMING LAZER-EYED BEARS SHOOTING LAZER FISTS!

[victorey84]

I doubt it'd be easier to make handwraps change unarmed crit power than to fix weighted. Unless they implement it as a "virtual" feat/enhancement a la IC/kensai/barb and have the wrap grant that feat.

So, with that limitation in mind, here's what I think might be a reasonable epic handwrap:

+6-+10
Weighted 5%-8%
Metalline
Force Burst or Good Burst
1-2 slots

I think in lieu of better crit power, a good burst is necessary. Force Burst comes to mind, though perhaps a 1d10 on crit on an epic is a bit low unless it goes along with weighted 8% to land it more often. If staying with weighted 5%, then Good Burst seems like a better choice with 3d6 on crit.

I agree, if metalline isn't included then at least 2 slots, one a red, is a must to bypass silver. However, epic means more than just raid boss beaters, so I think it'd be better to have metalline and just 1 slot if necessary.

With metalline and 1 red slot, the slot could be used to bypass evil DR, and one use of greensteel would be replaced.

I'm not sure if Good Burst has an alignment/umd requirement. If it does, then I guess Force Burst will be fairer for everyone, but will definitely need at least weighted 8% or +10 enhacement to make up for it.

Though I wonder what effect +16 stunning fist DC would have if they ever fix it.

[Delacroix21]

Ok how about this then=

Handwraps of The Falling Star
+10
Weighted 8%
Epic Bane (New!)
Disintigration (added)
Empty Colorless slot
Empty Red Slot


The reason=
1. Monks get +10 as we are so stat starved anyway and cant max out strength like other meele.
2. The weighted 8% is also a tip of the hat to monks, who must stack wisdom instead of strength for Stun DC. Strength is also the highest stackable stat in DDO!
3. Epic Bane= This weapon is the Bane of all existence, and thus is treated as a "Greater Bane" against anything it strikes. (+4, +3d6) This makes up for the fact that monk unarmed doesnt double like the greatsword (Greatsword from 2d6-4d6)
4. Disintrigration (helps make up for no crit range increase or crit multiplier increase)
5. 2 Empty slots due to no offhand handwrap


Before you think its not a fair match, lets look at the Epic Sword of Shadows=
1. +10 enhancement
2. Adamantine (usefull against contructs and stoneskinned mobs)
3. DOUBLE normal greatsword damage (2d6 to 4d6)
4. Extra normal greatsword crit range (19-20 to 18-20, which is highest in DDO)
5. DOUBLE normal greatsword crit multiplier (x2 to x4, which is highest in DDO)
6. 2 handed range (try unarming a moving target)
7. 2 slots



I would say the 2 are preety balanced. We traded=
1. Double damage for greater bane
2. Extra crit range for weighted (weighted will not effect dps against bosses/red named, range will)
3. Double crit multiplier for Disintrigration (the multiplier actually does more dps believe it or not!)

[Delacroix21]

Non epic version of the handwraps=

+5 (changes to 10)
weighted 4% (changes to 8%)
Steam (2d8+8 untyped, about 20% chance as per Gsteel, changes to disintrigration)
Force (changes to epic bane)


A decent handwrap, but definately not the best (as they should be). You are going to WANT to upgrade these. Can also drop in Von 6 to be fair.

[MarcusCole]

add on

Essence of the Star: +10 DC to the Shining Star

just for flavor and to make that finisher more useful



Other than that.....

Please devs? plzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplz?

[Fafnir]

The comparison is a valid one. The SOS is crazy, GS weapons and great, and there needs to be some equivalent wraps.

[Sir_Chonas]

I'd settle for the 5% weighted wraps to get their deserved 10 DCs.

[MarcusCole]

That still wouldn't fix the problem of epic weapons, and while so far THF seems to be getting the most love, if epic greensteel does not include handwraps, then monks will be so incredibly far behind in dps. All I am asking for is some statment of intent to fix this problem from a dev. I would hope that they might include some clue as to how this is being attempted but that is probably too much to wish for.

[DrakmireTS]

Burst tower rings are meant to be compensation for no GS handwraps. I'm not sure where monks should be falling in terms of DPS (as seen through a developer's eyes), but it certainly isn't incredibly far behind. Behind what exactly?

[Timjc86]

Burst tower rings are meant to be compensation for no GS handwraps. I'm not sure where monks should be falling in terms of DPS (as seen through a developer's eyes), but it certainly isn't incredibly far behind. Behind what exactly?

Rings help a bit with monk DPS, but I'd argue it's not quite as powerful as GS weapons. Additionally, they also require 3 item slots compared to one for other classes with greensteel weapons. And it locks monks (the most stat-dependent class) out of one of the main sources for +2 exceptional stat bonuses. ToD rings are a nice gesture (and a good boost to DPS) but they're only a teeny little bandaid on a serious balance problem.

And that's ignoring the fact that all other classes can access their greensteel weapons at level 12, whereas monks can't use ToD rings until level 18 without successfully completing an end game raid which is the most prone to lag wipes.

I can't talk about this any longer or I'll start throwing things.

[Ellyll]

Has anyone ever explained why monks can't have handwraps that, while not called greensteel, act the same?

I mean, yes, I can understand not being able to make handwraps out of steel... Got it...

But why not "Planar Weave" handwraps, or some other name, that just "happen" to share all the same qualities of greensteel weapons, including the upgrade paths?

Would that really take much development time?

[Timjc86]

Has anyone ever explained why monks can't have handwraps that, while not called green steel, act the same?

I mean, yes, I can understand not being able to make handwraps out of steel... Got it...

But why not "Planar Weave" handwraps, or some other name, that just "happen" to share all the same qualities of green steel weapons, including the upgrade paths?

Would that really take much development time?

It's been stated that it's an issue of how they coded handwraps. Handwraps at code level are not considered weapons, but rather they apply effects that weapons would have to the monk him/herself. That's why you can examine a monk and see things like +4 enhancement bonus, holy, weighted 2%, etc.

Something about the way they coded handwraps prevents them from making all the possible effects on greensteel weapons work on handwraps.

It's also been stated that monks would not have "green steel" handwraps just as you noticed, but green steel weave handwraps would make sense.

[Xeraphim]

I have no idea why greensteel handwraps were omitted in the first place.

IIRC it was something about "The monk BEING the weapon" and some coding issues with it and such.

I think it was one of those "When we get around to it" kind of things. I'm being patient about it.

[Taimasan]

i guess if you follow the monk is the weapon guide, then TRing from monk to monk would be your greensteel. But I mean..it took me forever to get 2 ToD rings and TR, so I dunno, other classes can get Greensteel alot earlier.

[Delacroix21]

i guess if you follow the monk is the weapon guide, then TRing from monk to monk would be your greensteel. But I mean..it took me forever to get 2 ToD rings and TR, so I dunno, other classes can get Greensteel alot earlier.


Spending a feat to get the equivalent of greensteel die increase just isnt fair, not to mention they got it worng= in DnD it should be 3d8 not 2d12 (which is better average damage). That being said a few weapons get a double die increase= dwarven axes and bastard swords become 2d8 instead of 1d12.


But this issue remains as the Devs have hinted at Epic Greensteel being added in the future... So what does that mean for monks? Epic ToD rings a year+ later?


They have fixed most of the handwrap coding issues, as we now have metaline and puregood. Monks just clearly are not a priority for the DDO Devs as their lack of discussion with the monk community demonstrates. This is a Unique issue in DDO that only monks suffer with, so it shoudl require some special attention.


To be honest I would have shut up about this years ago if a Dev simply told us= "We acknowledge this issue and we are currently working on it" But then again I would probably ask= "When?":D

[Delacroix21]

[QUOTE=MarcusCole;2795741]add on

Essence of the Star: +10 DC to the Shining Star

just for flavor and to make that finisher more useful

[QUOTE]

Or they could just change Shining Star to= Ottos Irrestible Dance, so it would work.


I think they just thought it would be cool with the whole earth, wind, and fire thing, but making the DC based of the 1 stat monks ignore is just..... I am gonna say silly (though other words come to mind).

[MarcusCole]

[QUOTE=MarcusCole;2795741]add on

Essence of the Star: +10 DC to the Shining Star

just for flavor and to make that finisher more useful

[QUOTE]

Or they could just change Shining Star to= Ottos Irrestible Dance, so it would work.


I think they just thought it would be cool with the whole earth, wind, and fire thing, but making the DC based of the 1 stat monks ignore is just..... I am gonna say silly (though other words come to mind).

oddly I have had some success with shining star in epic content! it was about 1/4 failed the save, but yeah irresistible would be better

[MarcusCole]

Back on topic though, I think its about time we heard from someone about turbines plan to compensate us for all the *stuff* we have put up with for monks.

[sinedist]

If I were to guess I'd say that the most monks can expect within the coming update is the release of silver-threaded, cold-iron threaded, etc. to the random gen loot tables, and maybe a mid-range named handwrap.

If we're lucky, that new named wrap will drop in Gianthold and will be upgradable to epic... but I wouldn't bank on it.

I'm trying my hardest to not be cynical here.

[Hendrik]

What would really help is this:
Greensteel handwraps with an innate higher damage die.
On a level 20 monk, 2d12.
On a level 20 monk with the reincarnate feat, 4d8.

I have no idea why greensteel handwraps were omitted in the first place.

Simple.

'Wraps apply the affect to the person and not the weapon. Ginormous difficulty in making GS work with the Monk.

Once this can be dealt with, the possibility of GS opens up.

[Turgar]

I have given up on ever seeing gs handwraps. It seems like something the devs have put into the never gonna happen category. I just want to see an epic drop possibility more than anything.
Don't get me wrong, I would be losing my marbles with joy if I could craft Min2 handwraps, I just don't see it happening, ever.

[prodONEg]

I was reading this thread yesterday during lunch and appreciating all of the information and opinions being shared - thanks to all of the contributors. It also made me somewhat depressed seeing what I can look forward to because I have two monks right now - a L6 and a L8.

Anyway, after lunch when I got back to work I had to write some stuff on my whiteboard and noticed two of these sitting there mocking me:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3520/imag0079n.jpg

Any guesses on the stats?

[Timjc86]

I was reading this thread yesterday during lunch and appreciating all of the information and opinions being shared - thanks to all of the contributors. It also made me somewhat depressed seeing what I can look forward to because I have two monks right now - a L6 and a L8.

Anyway, after lunch when I got back to work I had to write some stuff on my whiteboard and noticed two of these sitting there mocking me:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3520/imag0079n.jpg

Any guesses on the stats?

Greensteel piercing weapons for monks in the works?? I think so!

[Kintro]

Outside of DR bypassing/bosses (I've yet to find any Metaline handwraps let alone a good set) I don't really see a problem with Monk DPS.

Monks have the fastest attacks in the game and can have:

Holy or Maladroit (Wraps)
Icy Burst (Risia ritual)
Holy Burst (ToD)
Shocking, Acid or Flaming Burst (ToD)
+16 Sneak Attacks (Enhancements+Tharnes)
Weighted 5%
Intermittent x3 crits (Iron Fist)
Extra elemental damage as fast as I can be bothered hitting them.

Sure other classes can have Greensteel or Epic weapons but you can't use them at the same time as Autocrit effects like a Monk can. Against trash mobs this makes a huge difference and when it's Epic trash it does matter.

[MarcusCole]

bump: cause there better be some wraps in the Sentinels pack

[Timjc86]

Outside of DR bypassing/bosses (I've yet to find any Metaline handwraps let alone a good set) I don't really see a problem with Monk DPS.

Monks have the fastest attacks in the game and can have:

Holy or Maladroit (Wraps)
Icy Burst (Risia ritual)
Holy Burst (ToD)
Shocking, Acid or Flaming Burst (ToD)
+16 Sneak Attacks (Enhancements+Tharnes)
Weighted 5%
Intermittent x3 crits (Iron Fist)
Extra elemental damage as fast as I can be bothered hitting them.

Most of these things are available to other classes as well, some of them in conjunction with greensteel and epic weapons, which are far superior to the few unique benefits to DPS that monks actually get.

Monk DPS is suffering from 3 main things that I can think of:

Poor itemization in conjunction with the worst crit range and crit multiplier. No greensteel weapons. No epic weapons. Not even any named weapons past level 8. ToD rings do the most to attempt to offset the differences but I'd argue greensteel weapons are better in most situations and can be attained earlier and more easily. There's nothing monks get to even come close to competing with epic weapons, especially like the Sword of Shadows (which is a bit of an epic epic weapon.)
Limited bonuses to to-hit and damage. Stances provide this to a limited degree depending on the build but they're mutually exclusive. Wind stance is the best to use for DPS but only provides a to-hit bonus if the character has weapon finesse. Ki strikes add some extra damage. And that's it. Rangers get Ram's Might and favored enemy feats and enhancements. Barbarians get massive bonuses to strength. Fighters get strength enhancements, regular and greater weapon focus and specialization feats, and 10% alacrity if pure. Rogues get massive sneak attack feats and enhancements. Paladins get Divine Favor, Zeal, Divine Sacrifice, Smite Evil, and potentially Divine Might.
Prestige enhancements. Rangers, Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins all have at least one three tier prestige enhancement line that benefits to-hit and damage, most of them by a significant amount. Monks have none.



Sure other classes can have Greensteel or Epic weapons but you can't use them at the same time as Autocrit effects like a Monk can. Against trash mobs this makes a huge difference and when it's Epic trash it does matter.

Everyone else can use weighted weapons (and then switch out). Barbarians and potentially fighters can get Stunning Blow DCs high enough to be somewhat useful in epic content.

The fact that another well equipped DPS class can kill an un-stunned mob in the time it tanks a monk to kill a stunned one is very telling - monk DPS still needs some help.

[KKDragonLord]

New bracers from pirate quests will improve monke stance attacks

[MarcusCole]

New bracers from pirate quests will improve monke stance attacks

agian this may help but does not make up for the lack of epic wraps. It requires that we give an item slot that could be used for other epic items. its the same as ToD rings, to get the DPS increase we have to give up the exceptional +2 that other classes take for granted. Why can't turbine realize this and just give us some epic handwraps? it really does not make any sense: they screw us out of greensteel (don't really care if its coding issues or whatever thats no excuse to give monks nothing at all), and then to make up for it, they give us nothing at all in the way of epic (or anything else for that matter).

[Kyrn]

agian this may help but does not make up for the lack of epic wraps. It requires that we give an item slot that could be used for other epic items. its the same as ToD rings, to get the DPS increase we have to give up the exceptional +2 that other classes take for granted. Why can't turbine realize this and just give us some epic handwraps? it really does not make any sense: they screw us out of greensteel (don't really care if its coding issues or whatever thats no excuse to give monks nothing at all), and then to make up for it, they give us nothing at all in the way of epic (or anything else for that matter).

Actually, isn't the content area 6-8 + epic, implying that the bracers are epic-upgradable?

[MarcusCole]

Actually, isn't the content area 6-8 + epic, implying that the bracers are epic-upgradable?

Yes the bracers will be epic-upgradable, but if it is making us give up 2 ring slots and the bracers slot for viable epic dps, then I am still unsatisfied. they are taking away from monks what other classes take for granted

[Timjc86]

New bracers from pirate quests will improve monke stance attacks

The bracer details got posted on the Lamannia loot thread and the stance bonuses are not terribly exciting IMO. The idea itself of an item that adds additional bonuses to stances is a great one, but the bonuses themselves are laughable for the stances that people actually use.

We still haven't seen the epic version of the bracers yet so I will reserve final judgment until then.

[MarcusCole]

The bracer details got posted on the Lamannia loot thread and the stance bonuses are not terribly exciting IMO. The idea itself of an item that adds additional bonuses to stances is a great one, but the bonuses themselves are laughable for the stances that people actually use.

We still haven't seen the epic version of the bracers yet so I will reserve final judgment until then.

Same here, I started that thread hoping someone would find a set of named wraps but noone has yet. :'(

[Rheebus]

You know...that's all I want.

Let's see. I have a pair of Flaming Burst, Icy Burst handwraps of Weighted 5%. Add in the Shintao Ring crafted with Holy Burst, and Oremi's Ring crafted with Shocking Burst, and we've got ourselves a recipe for ass-kicking. 2d10 base fist damage + Stunning fist -> 4 bursts per hit in wind stance + death touch for 500 dam every 15 seconds. I am not sure what is Gimped about monks. Stop complaining! Start punching! :)

Please fix Stunning Fist so weighted adds to the DC! That's all I want!

[Philam]

I see that there are efforts being made to correct the issues that have come up time and time again in the forums, and there is something to be said for this; however, I'm coming, time and time again, to wonder why exactly the class on the whole is being given such sparse and uninspired treatment by the developers. I've now brought two monks to cap, and feel that I can speak with some intelligence and experience about the class... but seeing the new epic content being released, the new epic weapons, and the large gap in DPS between monks and the other melee classes is bringing me to a state where I'm just going to give up on the class as a whole.

Monks are, of course, viable. When it comes to a 100% fortification enemy, the class is top tier. But there is a lot of content that currently exists that isn't... well... portals. There are claims that the developers are attempting to fix the plethora of issues that plague the class, and make the class one that a great number of people are biased against... and it's when you consider what these fixes are that you see just how lack-luster said fixes are.

Honestly, I feel as though I'm supposed to be happy with the recent changes to the monk class, but all I see are uninspired "fixes" to long-standing problems while so many other classes are getting new boosts that raise the bar even farther from the monk class.

1) Dark Path: while this fix is working toward making the choice between dark and light a more balanced choice (an actual choice?), one has to ask if a 33.3 DPS increase (assuming you can maintain enough ki while consistently expending ki via spamming elemental strikes (where a significant portion of the monk's DPS arises from and a huge ki expenditure in and of itself)) is worth the cost of 12 AP on an already AP starved class, the inability to heal, and the loss of group buffs. Certainly, the case can now be better made for choosing the Path of Inevitable Dominion, but has the class been given anything as a boon with this change? I do not believe so, sadly.

2) Monk Action Points: This is, more than many, an AP starved class -- even without a single PrE. As a pre-emptive strike, the recent mod is granting the first tier of stances automatically. At best, monks are given a maximum of 4AP back. This "gift" of 4AP has now resulted in needing to select arbitrary enhancements (which then take up a good portion of the 4AP monks were given as a corrective). Is the 12AP cost of Touch of Death lightened by this change? Are monks really supposed to look forward to trying to fit a PrE and all of its prerequisites into the class because a maximum of 4AP were freed? I fail to see how this change has really made any headway toward addressing the numerous complaints that have been lodged against its structure.

3) Weighted: Still not fixed, despite Stunning Fist being one of the most central features of the class. This problem has been around, from what I've read in the forms, for years.

4) Greensteel/Metalline Wraps and the ToD Rings: The biggest adversary to a Monk's DPS, that keeps it from being even realistically comparable to that of all other melee classes is their lack of criticals. I can understand this, and I can even make a case for why this is deployed as a balancing feature. The ToD rings were put in place to offset the fact that greensteel wasn't/isn't going to happen. One of the largest appeals to greensteel weaponry, however, is the importance of DR bypass end-game.

Am I to believe that adding 3d6 (2d6 Holy and 1d6 Shocking) to my damage is really a substitute for greeensteel handwraps? For some enemy DR, the monk not only needs to sacrifice a high damaging prefix on his/her wraps for metalline (which has a raised ML already (from 6 on all other weapons to ~8-10 for wraps, making finding, now that they are even dropping(!), a decent pair of metalline wraps nigh impossible and even further from all other melee weapons deemed viable in-game), but they must sacrifice exceptional stat bonuses (stats, like AP, being pulled so tight) or other features in order to merely bypass enemy DR.

Personally, I fail to see how the addition of ToD rings has "fixed" such problems. They are a step, certainly... but how much of one? How much, gear wise, does the monk need to sacrifice in order to arrive at levels even approximating the other melee classes? Comparably, at least, monks are expected to give up the kinds of bonuses that all other classes have access to because some of them desire to bypass DR...! Oi. Unless of course one wishes to continue to use the only currently in-game named pair of handwraps, a level 8 pair of handwraps, in epic quests or against harry. Devout handwraps were the huge bone monks were thrown because of these class issues?

5) Named Wraps: This is my last point, and perhaps the most upsetting for me. Without greensteel handwraps, the monk class needs named wraps to even begin really fixing the growing DPS gap between them and all other melee classes. The deployment of the Devouts (albeit as a rare drop in one of the most despised chains in the game) began to recognize this. I had a great deal of hope at that point... it seemed as though the developers were finally reacting to the community. It said, "we hear you" and the Devouts were a signifier for changes to come.

So, after seeing the release notes, what are the changes to come? More named handwraps. All deplorably useless beyond level 12, all utterly cheap and absolutely irrelevant end-game. So low level monks get some more chains to run for gear that is almost immediately outdated. Meanwhile, items like Epic Xuum and Epic SoS are being dropped.

Monks feel cheated, and a number of people in this forum seem to agree that this cheated feeling is mutual.

DESPITE all of these issues, players are making monks work. This demonstrates just how well loved the class is. Players are working with what little they have been given, and are just barely eking by as a result.

But when I see items like the Epic SoS, when monks were just recently given the possibility of overcoming metal/alignment based DR at a number of costs that no other classes are required to make, I feel like the developers have just given up on making the class comparable -- on making the class viable.

Watching release notes pouring out while hoping to see this beloved class improved upon, because some people are tired of seeing pure barbs and kopeshes, is getting to be too quixotic for me.

Sorry for the length.

Yeah what he said!!!;):D

Ph

[Timjc86]

You know...that's all I want.

Let's see. I have a pair of Flaming Burst, Icy Burst handwraps of Weighted 5%. Add in the Shintao Ring crafted with Holy Burst, and Oremi's Ring crafted with Shocking Burst, and we've got ourselves a recipe for ass-kicking. 2d10 base fist damage + Stunning fist -> 4 bursts per hit in wind stance + death touch for 500 dam every 15 seconds. I am not sure what is Gimped about monks. Stop complaining! Start punching! :)

Please fix Stunning Fist so weighted adds to the DC! That's all I want!

Edit: Redoing entire post.

Even with all that, I'd say monks are behind other DPS classes with greensteel weapons and tier 3 prestige enhancements. That's not even considering the jump to epic weapons.

I certainly want weighted fixed ASAP, but I don't want them to stop there.

[Zyklon]

Simple.

'Wraps apply the affect to the person and not the weapon. Ginormous difficulty in making GS work with the Monk.

Once this can be dealt with, the possibility of GS opens up.

This can be dealt with.
They could make greensteel handwraps that have 1dX of untyped damage/maiming - (the way elemental damage is added). Then craft as usual on top of it.


-

[MarcusCole]

This can be dealt with.
They could make greensteel handwraps that have 1dX of untyped damage/maiming - (the way elemental damage is added). Then craft as usual on top of it.


-

This may still not work, but it is impossible to tell without knowing how exactly they programed the handwraps. My guess is that this would not fix the problem, and if it did, we would have numerous other issues on top of that.

[Cyr]

There's nothing monks get to even come close to competing with epic weapons, especially like the Sword of Shadows (which is a bit of an epic epic weapon.)

Besides Xuum and SoS there are no epic items that are really impressive at all. In fact, GS beats most out hands down. This might change with the third rumored pass of the DQ loot.

The real problem is the lack of GS wraps. That has been blamed on how handwraps apply as body effects. It seems that this should be changed. Otherwise, we will keep on getting these goofy bugs with handwraps.

[Raiderone]

Monks have more than one issue of no GreenStell Handwraps in my Opinion.

They need other weapons types to expand upon higher crit levels. They need to add
Sia's and Katana's. Not sure what Crit Range would be on them?
I could see Sia's being like Kukri's in damage and Crit Range. Katana's like Scimitars.

Maybe some Polearm weapons too. Halberd? Not sure if thats a Monk Weapon?

[SolarDawning]

Maybe some Polearm weapons too. Halberd? Not sure if thats a Monk Weapon?

The staff "Rahl's Might" in game has the exact same stats as a halberd in D&D. (1d10 base damage die, crit range 20 for x3 multiplier)

[Raiderone]

The staff "Rahl's Might" in game has the exact same stats as a halberd in D&D. (1d10 base damage die, crit range 20 for x3 multiplier)

Then they can add GS Halberds then!
I can do without Rahl's Might due to Deception...

[Timjc86]

Then they can add GS Halberds then!
I can do without Rahl's Might due to Deception...

I keep Rahl's Might on my monk for Improved Destruction - whip it out for tough fights, get in one whack, then switch back to wraps. I'm secretly terrified that one day Deception will go off on that one hit on something I REALLY don't want it to.

Hasn't happened yet though.

[Veriden]

IIRC it was something about "The monk BEING the weapon" and some coding issues with it and such.

I think it was one of those "When we get around to it" kind of things. I'm being patient about it.

Fine, if the monk is the weapon, at lvl 12 I want to be a green steel monk.

[Veriden]

Monks have more than one issue of no GreenStell Handwraps in my Opinion.

They need other weapons types to expand upon higher crit levels. They need to add
Sia's and Katana's. Not sure what Crit Range would be on them?
I could see Sia's being like Kukri's in damage and Crit Range. Katana's like Scimitars.

Maybe some Polearm weapons too. Halberd? Not sure if thats a Monk Weapon?

Sais would not help, they're 1d4 blunt damage with a crit 20x2...good news, they have a thrown range increment of 10ft...But if we're going to pick up weapons your best bet for a twf monk ac build would be dual tonfas (should offer a shield bonus) or for dps build...get ready for it...GAUNTLETS, bladed, spiked, normal...yes monks CAN use these in pnp and guess what...they're made of metal...so is...green steel...green steel gauntlets...solution to the "EFF YOU MONKS" the devs are showing us. Ta-da solution this thread like myself, made of win. This message brought to you at 8am hyped up on twizzlers, red bull, and chocolate cake happy eff'ing birthday to me.

Edit: Katana is not a monk weapon, it's a Samurai weapon, or something the need to fix also, bastard swords and the ability to use them as a martial weapon so long as you use them two handed. They need to make it so you can use weapons two handed instead of just the solely two handed weapons.

[woundweaver]

thats because monks ARE dps, and we are too uber to need greensteel. we can do it with our bare hands. its the other classes that are gimp...

[chubbs99]

Sais would not help, they're 1d4 blunt damage with a crit 20x2...good news, they have a thrown range increment of 10ft...But if we're going to pick up weapons your best bet for a twf monk ac build would be dual tonfas (should offer a shield bonus) or for dps build...get ready for it...GAUNTLETS, bladed, spiked, normal...yes monks CAN use these in pnp and guess what...they're made of metal...so is...green steel...green steel gauntlets...solution to the "EFF YOU MONKS" the devs are showing us. Ta-da solution this thread like myself, made of win. This message brought to you at 8am hyped up on twizzlers, red bull, and chocolate cake happy eff'ing birthday to me.

Actually, I see it is lazy dev's currently, or perhaps they are just to busy coding a better auction house... But With the wraps added in the other patch we saw the birth of "Threaded" wraps. (ie. Eternal rest = silver threaded, Devotion = cold iron threaded) thus giving monks the ability to use "metal" weapons. Aside from a bit of coding to make a recipe I don't see why Green Steel threaded handwraps can be coming down the pipe

[Hendrik]

Actually, I see it is lazy dev's currently, or perhaps they are just to busy coding a better auction house... But With the wraps added in the other patch we saw the birth of "Threaded" wraps. (ie. Eternal rest = silver threaded, Devotion = cold iron threaded) thus giving monks the ability to use "metal" weapons. Aside from a bit of coding to make a recipe I don't see why Green Steel threaded handwraps can be coming down the pipe


Try lazy players.

Inability to read and/or understand each and every DEV statement on the difficulties at hand to bring GS to the Monk class.

You could take your coding abilities and offer them to Turbine to solve the issues with GS and the Monk...

[Timjc86]

Fine, if the monk is the weapon, at lvl 12 I want to be a green steel monk.

Lol! Sounds good to me.


thats because monks ARE dps, and we are too uber to need greensteel. we can do it with our bare hands. its the other classes that are gimp...

If the DPS game were scored like golf, you'd be correct.


Actually, I see it is lazy dev's currently, or perhaps they are just to busy coding a better auction house...

AH improvements have been a long time coming (and shouldn't be all that difficult.) I think what's really keeping them busy is more mid level content for the casual F2P players. If we're really lucky, we might get another batch of level 8 handwraps in the next update. =|


Try lazy players.

Inability to read and/or understand each and every DEV statement on the difficulties at hand to bring GS to the Monk class.

I don't think it's an issue of laziness, but of priorities. They simply don't care that one of the classes which has been in game since mid 2008 still has some rather glaring balance issues on multiple levels - at least not as much as they care about adding even more level 6-8 content despite that being the most content saturated level range.

Obviously I would prioritize things different were I a dev (at least I think I would from my current perspective.) But DDO:EU changed lots of things, namely who's paying their salaries. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised about current development trends.

[Chai]

Monks should not have to farm for days on end to get the one known handwrap that can bypass DR on raid bosses when the other melee classes can hit up the auction and buy their weapons outright due to decent levels of availibility.

There needs to be a ritual in game for all types of metals. This would solve the issue completely. This is not a hard or unbalancing fix, nor would it be hard to code. It already exists for adamantine.

I would run a quest to get silver bits and then go to the stone of change with my holy burst handwraps and x# of silver bits and ritual them. There I fixed it. Now Ican backslap harry for full damage.

You could also rit a pair of metalline handwraps with flametouched iron from a quest to bypass DR. Every melee in the game would have this option - so no lack of balance there.

[Cyr]

we can do it with our bare hands.

But it not quite as fun then;)

[Marr0w1]

for now I will keep myself warm by imagining epic devout wraps.
+6 Holy burst metalline, with a x3 crit multiplier.

[Chai]

Try lazy players.

Inability to read and/or understand each and every DEV statement on the difficulties at hand to bring GS to the Monk class.

You could take your coding abilities and offer them to Turbine to solve the issues with GS and the Monk...

LOL they screwed their own pooch by making handwraps code differently than normal weapons in the first place.

Monks dont necessarily need GS wraps, but they do need a solution. This goes alot further than GS wraps.

As far as DR goes, There just needs to be metal on handwraps, period. If there were enough Holy silver wraps dropping, or metalling flametouched iron, the DR bypass issue wouldnt exist. Tossing metals onto the random handwrap loot tables like it is for ALL other weapons can't be that hard.

Monks have to use the one metalline PG set that they know drops, while everyone else has Holy Silver GEOB, and Metalline Flametouched GEOB swords and rapiers? They also have to farm for this, while other classes buy weapons off the AH that are readily available. All this because of some coding issue? - laughable. This sounds almost as far fetched as DA being put into place to fix lag.

[oweieie]

LOL they screwed their own pooch by making handwraps code differently than normal weapons in the first place.

It really is irrelevant. The coding time for something like that isn't all that major. We're talking a couple days of work tops for something that impacts a fairly significant percentage of players. But this is a company that won't even correct the text in spell descriptions or magic items that leave the players scratching their heads in confusion. How long has the force burst description not mentioned actually doing +d6 damage? All the potions that say "friend" but are self only. etc. etc. And they forgot to add to the tempest and ravager ToD set descriptions "BTW go **** yourselves monks."

[TheIvanovFamily]

for now I will keep myself warm by imagining epic devout wraps.
+6 Holy burst metalline, with a x3 crit multiplier.

Holy burst on epic wraps would suck, because any monk likely to have epic wraps will most likely also have an upgraded ToD ring with holy burst on it, thus making the fancy epic wraps just a +6 metalline x3, which is lame for an epic weapon. Same thing for shocking burst.

[Cyr]

There needs to be a ritual in game for all types of metals. This would solve the issue completely. This is not a hard or unbalancing fix, nor would it be hard to code. It already exists for adamantine.

I would run a quest to get silver bits and then go to the stone of change with my holy burst handwraps and x# of silver bits and ritual them. There I fixed it. Now Ican backslap harry for full damage.

This would be an excellent idea and one I have advocated in the past, but does adamantine ritual actually add the adamantine property to bypass DR currently?

[Hendrik]

It really is irrelevant. The coding time for something like that isn't all that major. We're talking a couple days of work tops for something that impacts a fairly significant percentage of players. But this is a company that won't even correct the text in spell descriptions or magic items that leave the players scratching their heads in confusion. How long has the force burst description not mentioned actually doing +d6 damage? All the potions that say "friend" but are self only. etc. etc. And they forgot to add to the tempest and ravager ToD set descriptions "BTW go **** yourselves monks."


Well then, why not take your coding skills and take the weekend to fix it. You have a couple days so we expect your solution on the boards Monday.

:rolleyes:

[prophet1]

I THOUGHT in d and d monks at lvl 20 did like 2to20 or 3to30 something like that with there hands at lvl 20 since we can t get that last 21 to be the grandmaster of flowers lame so the damage is gimped to begin with isn t it

[prophet1]

the adam ritual i have tried it on lots weapons i got 2 to get the adam in the name with dr bypass but for some reason it doesn t do any weapon just random from what i tried n i tried n tried weapons

[oweieie]

Well then, why not take your coding skills and take the weekend to fix it. You have a couple days so we expect your solution on the boards Monday.

:rolleyes:

You sir, have entered the running for dumbest post in internet history. *golf clap*

[Darkrok]

There really is a simple solution that would fix this without requiring them to change things around in the code. They need to completely redo the Ki Strike line of feats. There should be a Ki Strike: Good (although I can't decide whether this should be limited to good monks and what to give the neutral ones if it is) and Ki Strikes: Silver, Cold Iron, Byeshk (or however that's spelled), and any other metals that I missed that aren't in the game yet. Obviously they screwed the pooch on itemization for monk handwraps. Fix it not by fixing the handwraps (which requires coding both for the fix and the itemization) but by fixing the class. Then you let monks use whatever handwraps do the most damage or have the most useful effect in a given fight which will help ease dps problems (if you can use a greater bane weapon and STILL get around any DR you're going to be in a very good spot). Obviously spread these ki strike feats out...make them come at a decent but not overpowering level so that you're getting your ability to get around DR about the same time as someone new to the game would come across an appropriate weapon.

[Seliana]

On the issue of epic weapons I feel that setting the capstone to change the base damage of a level 20 monks fists to 2d20 instead of 2d10 would go a fair way to making up for the lack of crit multiplier and base damage against the epic SOS, Or alternatively setting the capstone to change the base fist into a +5 Metaline of Aligned weapon before hand-wrap bonuses are applied.

If our hard earned AC and defenses are going to be worthless in epic content, at least give us damage back...

[Chai]

Any other melee damage class can walk up to the AH and buy 1 or 2 weapons that are metalline pure good.

Monk has to farm them from the one known source.

FAIL!!!

I did shadow crypt named chest 4 times today, 4 times yesterday, and no wraps.

This is with a full group. 48 chances, NOTHING!!!

Do I have to hold my monk back from raid content because I cant get a weapon that damages end bosses, while I can just log my fighter on, buy 2 weapons off the AH that damage end bosses, and rock and roll?

Its not my fault that the devs coded wraps differently than they coded every other weapon.

This is a negative class balance issue that needs to be fixed. Fix this please, now.

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