What is the difference between a DPS an TANK

[pappo]

What does it mean when I read people saying their toon is a DPS fighter, and others saying they are making a TANK ?
I thought DPS was just a way of saying Damage/Per/Swing and a TANK was just a fighter who was very hard to kill and could be used to block doorways and fight toe-to-toe. I thought DPS was just a measurement stat for how well a TANK did damage.

How are these two different things and, if they are different, how are they played differently ?

[Freeman]

Honestly, it depends on who you ask. To me, a tank just means someone that can take a beating, either through AC or HP. You can be DPS but not be a tank, you can be a tank without much DPS. If you've got both, even better :)

[EKKM]

In DDO the term is usually used interchangably between a melee dps character and a high Ac/DR melee. This is mainly because so few quests in DDO require a traditional tank.

A DPS fighter likely means a low AC , TWF or THF character. Most fighters in DDO are not tanks in the traditional sense of the word but are actually dps melee.

[Sir_Chonas]

In DDO tanks are
monks with high dexterity, wisdom, and constitution which avoid everything and are most useful against casters
Paladins that do NOT use two handed weapons and have high intimidate
Fighters that don't two weapon or two handed fight, ususally have combat expertise, and have high intimidate.

DPS are usually two weapon/ two handed weapon fighters.

Mainly these are tempest 3 rangers
Kensei 3 Fighters
Many multi-class TWF
Barbarians
TWF Paladins (against evil beings and demons)
and assassin rogues against non undead, bosses, or other non sneak attack/backstabbable foes.

The differences are that DPS players are striving for killing things as fast as possible. These are fairly common and highly sought in the higher levels. HOWEVER, many tanks are also very useful (such as the monk evadi-tanks against fire elementals in the shroud or taking aggro from sully and stuff in the Tower of Despair).

basically one class is trying to take damage so everyone else can do damage. The other kind does damage so things die too fast to hurt other party members.

[Zenthalas]

A Tank is a short form for Intimitank. High intimidate skill character that can use the intimidate skill to control the mobs around him/her. Requires a good build and alot of items to perfect one, high AC and high DR is a must for them. Anything else is really DPS, you can be a fighter Kensai or a Tempest Ranger and put out tons of Damage Per Second (DPS) but you can't control the mobs in the same way as an Intimitank can. Anyway that's my take on it.

[pappo]

Ok, thanks for the inputs. I understand better now.

[Emili]

Some people build for both some people do not... a melee be a melee. The Idea of tanking is just about holding agro and controling it... you try to focus agro towards you via a skill like intimidate or via damage output. Also survivability comes to focus AC vs HP usually come to mind this boilds down to take less damage vs take more damage yet live - no biggy depending on the resources backing either up.

Every melee in essense plays a bit of a tank at somepoint... if they know so or not. Fact being I could argue that a wizard hopping around a firewall being chased is a tank - it provides the same extact function shall you think about it. ;)

Here's a decent hibryd DPS + intimidation build - DPS/intimitank (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171420)...

[Dartwick]

Some esoteric mis-information in this thread.

DPS is damage per second. Its not damage per swing.

A DPS fighter means one which is focused on achieving a high DPS(honestly that was obvious.)

"Tank" is not short for "intimitank"

"Tank" means a character built like a tank who can take a lot of abuse. "Initimitank" is when you make the best use of a tank in DDO by adding high intimidate.

[DownClan]

What does it mean when I read people saying their toon is a DPS fighter, and others saying they are making a TANK ?
I thought DPS was just a way of saying Damage/Per/Swing and a TANK was just a fighter who was very hard to kill and could be used to block doorways and fight toe-to-toe. I thought DPS was just a measurement stat for how well a TANK did damage.

How are these two different things and, if they are different, how are they played differently ?

Many players have come from WoW ( <raises_hand /> ) and in WoW, the terms DPS and TANK have very precise definitions:

In WoW, a TANK is somebody who can take and hold aggro, and who does not get killed so quickly that the healers can't even keep up. Better yet is a TANK who takes and holds aggro and doesn't need much healing, but that's slightly less important.

In WoW, a DPS is somebody who does large amounts of damage in short amounts of time. A WoW DPS'er can be using either melee or magic to be doing their damage - both types are DPS in WoW.

In WoW, aggro management is extremely important: Any class that can really dish out large amounts of DPS also tends to be very squishy, so if there isn't a TANK to take and hold aggro, when the DPS guys kick in, the monsters switch their attacks to the people doing the most damage, those people die very quickly, and the whole party wipes shortly afterwards.

Also in WoW, monsters will target and switch to attack those healers who are healing somebody doing damage to them, unless somebody else is holding their aggro.

In WoW, holding aggro is not primarily about doing lots of DPS. In WoW, you hold aggro by invoking various class-specific abilities. Those class-specific abilities are what make those classes into "TANKS".

But we play DDO. And in DDO, the roles are not nearly as precisely fixed as they are in WoW ( <thank_deity /> ).

--DownClan

[Uskathoth]

"Tank" means a character built like a tank who can take a lot of abuse. "Initimitank" is when you make the best use of a tank in DDO by adding high intimidate.

I think the ability to control agro is part of being a tank. Obviously, not everyone agrees on these terms.

My take on it is:
Tank = very tough, good agro control (doesn't necessarily do a lot of DPS)
DPS = high damage per second (not necessarily tough, not necessarily able to control much although obviously doing lots of damage generates some agro)

A tough guy without some control ability, like Intimidate, isn't much of a tank to me.

[Montrose]

In DDO tanks are
monks with high dexterity, wisdom, and constitution which avoid everything and are most useful against casters
Paladins that do NOT use two handed weapons and have high intimidate
Fighters that don't two weapon or two handed fight, ususally have combat expertise, and have high intimidate.


Hi welcome

Why is a paladin who doesn't use THF (and, assumedly TWF, though you neglect to mention that) automatically a tank? Also, paladins rarely have a high intimidate since it's not a class skill.

My intimidate fighter has TWF and only uses sword + board + CE when soloing or when the party has a sorc with a death wish.

Can't really speak to monks. I personally don't enjoy playing them, so my highest one has been level 4. Not that I played him to 4, mind you. He started out that way. :)

[Renegade66]

Some melee terms pretty much just mean one thing:
- "DPS" (or Beater) = A melee that dishes out a lot of damage per second. These may have some durability, but are hired to dish out the damage first and foremost.
- "Intim" = A melee that uses intimidation skill to hold aggro. These must be high AC or high Damage Reduction or both. They are not expected to dish out damage.
- "Hate Tank" = A melee that uses "hate" bonuses to enhance their limited DPS to hold aggro over DPS melee that will dish out more damage. These will have high AC or just a ton of hit points.
- "Main Tank" = A melee that can hold aggro on a raid boss and with either enough AC/DR to minimize damage taken or with enough hit points to give healers time to keep him/her alive. A main tank must be able to hold aggro either through massive DPS, hate dmg or intimidation skill.
- "Sword and Board" = A melee that uses a shield and one handed weapon to balance between durability and DPS. With very few exceptions, if you are a S&B that is not an Intim (or possibly a hate tank), you are probably not going to contribute much to high-end content who are looking for toons that can dish out the DPS.

"Tank" however is used for myriad meanings. "Tank" is sometimes used to represent a melee of any kind. Sometimes it is used the same as "Main Tank". Basically, the use of "Tank" can mean anything, so you can't define what a "Tank" is NOT. It just depends on the situation it is used.

Examples:
- "I need a couple tanks to fill out this Shroud" means they want melee of any flavor.
- "I need a guy to tank the end guy in Tower of Despair" means they want a "Main Tank".

In general though, "Tank" is used more often to represent a "Main Tank" and not a high DPS toon with little durability (i.e. low AC/DR and/or few hit points).

[Sir_Chonas]

Hi welcome

Why is a paladin who doesn't use THF (and, assumedly TWF, though you neglect to mention that) automatically a tank? Also, paladins rarely have a high intimidate since it's not a class skill.

My intimidate fighter has TWF and only uses sword + board + CE when soloing or when the party has a sorc with a death wish.

Can't really speak to monks. I personally don't enjoy playing them, so my highest one has been level 4. Not that I played him to 4, mind you. He started out that way. :)


Two weapon fighting implies fighting with two weapons. Your inference is therefore incorrect since my implication was that most tanks would be using a shield. I've seen paladins be very effective at tanking and I use them primarily for this purpose when constructing groups until later in game when their DPS are doubly effective against certain mobs (harry). Thanks for taking a basic outline of the most likely candidates for tanking, throwing in some complicated terms and confusing a new player who already said his question was answered.

Bye, unwelcome.

[PurdueDave]

The terms are loose in DDO. Here, IMO, if you're actively trying to hold the aggro you're pretty much a tank of some kind at the moment. You should still be able to dish some damage, though. There's any number of ways to accomplish this. From locking them down with intimidate to even simply kind of running at the front of the pack.

DDO doesn't require the highly structured combat roles common in other MMORPGs. That doesn't mean that you can't build a classic tank. And if you want to build a classic tank, there's multiple ways to go about it (covered in steel, covered in pajamas, etc.) I find that flexibility (both in build approach and playstyle) appealing.

[Montrose]

Two weapon fighting implies fighting with two weapons. Your inference is therefore incorrect since my implication was that most tanks would be using a sword.


TWF doesn't imply fighting with two weapons, it explictly states it. Implication != assertion. But thanks for trying.



I've seen paladins be very effective at tanking and I use them primarily for this purpose when constructing groups until later in game when their DPS are doubly effective against certain mobs (harry).


I never said they couldn't tank, I said they rarely have (edit: high) intimidate since it is not a class skill. Once again, thanks for trying.



Thanks for taking a basic outline of the most likely candidates for tanking, throwing in some complicated terms and confusing a new player who already said his question was answered.

Bye, unwelcome.

Which term, exactly, was complicated?

[Quikster]

Boy some of you really make this complicated.

Generally "Tank" is used to describe a build that can hold agro.

Generally "DPS" is used to describe a build that can deal damage


These are typically referred to the goals of the build.

In DDO the class is not so important. Ive seen bards, sorcs, and wizards (oh my!) tank raid bosses before. Ive seen clerics be dps'rs. This role can switch from quest to quest, party to party etc.

But overall when someone says I have a dps fighter, they mean they have focused on dealing damage, and when someone says they have a tank fighter they have focused on holding agro which can be done in a variety of ways.

[Sir_Chonas]

TWF doesn't imply fighting with two weapons, it explictly states it. Implication != assertion. But thanks for trying.

I never said they couldn't tank, I said they rarely have intimidate since it is not a class skill. Once again, thanks for trying.

Which term, exactly, was complicated?

1. I meant shield not sword. Shields /= Weapons.

2. UMD isn't a class skill for most classes, do most players not have it?

3. Not that they're inherently complex, but someone new to the game probably doesn't know the difference between TWF and THF or the bonuses to each race/class.

The OP was asking for a differentiation of DPS and TANK I provided examples to make it clear. The OP thanked me and the people before me for our input. You came and decided that my input was wildly invalid and offered me greetings and good tidings since I am clearly a noob.

@OP Sidenote, Quikster's simplification is a good way to look at the difference between the two.

[Angelus_dead]

- "Main Tank" = A melee that can hold aggro on a raid boss and with either enough AC/DR to minimize damage taken
To be precise about it, to be "Main Tank" isn't a question of if you can do those things. It means you are trying to do them right now.

It's how we designate who's supposed to primarily fight the boss; it's something you do, not something you are.

[Montrose]

1. I meant shield not sword. Shields /= Weapons.

Interesting, but not relevant. Aside from that - shields are, in fact, weapons in the DDO implementation. You can shield bash, they do damage, they have properties like ghost touch, etc.



2. UMD isn't a class skill for most classes, do most players not have it?

*sigh* I edited my post before your reply since I knew this would be your attempt at a counter-argument. Note that in your original post, my original response and (edited) second response, it says "high intimidate". Reading comprehension FTW!



3. Not that they're inherently complex, but someone new to the game probably doesn't know the difference between TWF and THF or the bonuses to each race/class.


You are the one that brought up THF and TWF in your original post. You even used the acronym TWF. Go back and look. Why is it complex when I talk about it, but not complex when you mention it?



You came and decided that my input was wildly invalid and offered me greetings and good tidings since I am clearly a noob.

We agree on this, at least.

[Quikster]

To be precise about it, to be "Main Tank" isn't a question of if you can do those things. It means you are trying to do them right now.

It's how we designate who's supposed to primarily fight the boss; it's something you do, not something you are.

Agreed. Was in a VoD pug yesterday. There were no less than 4 of us that could main tank. Doesnt mean we were all the main tank (kinda obvious i guess now that I type it out lol).

[Lleren]

Wait? "Tank is sometimes used to mean melee of any kind"? Really? I thought minimum for being refered as "tanks" in ddo was being a tough melee and not a squishy melee. Or is this a case of talking melee vs specialist. fighter/pally/barb/monk not rogue/bard/ranger? I've seen tough and squishy versions of most of those classes.

I thought I had it down, but now I am confused.

[Quikster]

Wait? "Tank is sometimes used to mean melee of any kind"? Really? I thought minimum for being refered as "tanks" in ddo was being a tough melee and not a squishy melee. Or is this a case of talking melee vs specialist. fighter/pally/barb/monk not rogue/bard/ranger? I've seen tough and squishy versions of most of those classes.

I thought I had it down, but now I am confused.

I dont think so. In the post you are referring to, the poster is referring to an add or lfm.

Shroud, need tanks.

Well in shroud you dont need anyone to hold the agro on the boss, or to turtle up, so what the add is trying to say is we need some melee dps. (unless the leader is ********) So I think what that poster was trying to demonstrate is some common uses of the term tank, even if most of the forumites disagree with that usage.

[Sir_Chonas]

Interesting, but not relevant. Aside from that - shields are, in fact, weapons in the DDO implementation. You can shield bash, they do damage, they have properties like ghost touch, etc.


*sigh* I edited my post before your reply since I knew this would be your attempt at a counter-argument. Note that in your original post, my original response and (edited) second response, it says "high intimidate". Reading comprehension FTW!



You are the one that brought up THF and TWF in your original post. You even used the acronym TWF. Go back and look. Why is it complex when I talk about it, but not complex when you mention it?



We agree on this, at least.

1. That's why all the two weapon fighters are offhanding shields I guess. For their extreme usability as weapons. I always thought it was because they add to blocking dr and overall ac. I'm an idiot. I'll switch out my vorpal/gs/paralyzing/attack bonus adding weapon for a shield immediately.

2. So I guess people without UMD as a class skill don't have high UMD. . .

3. I used TWF in one of my "probable dps builds," you didn't mention the words two handed fighting or two weapon fighting in your initial post at all. You assumed the OP would ascertain what they were from a granting of divine knowledge or something.

No we don't, I was being facetious. Do you know what facetious means? It means over exaggeratedly sarcastic to a point of ludicrousness. Which is exactly how I'd describe your inflated sense of self-importance. You offered no helpful advice to a new player in an advice forum, but decided instead to nitpick someone who tried to. Please continue in this worthwhile endeavor.

I tire of having to defend altruism.

[Quikster]

Not to nitpic more, but....



1. That's why all the two weapon fighters are offhanding shields I guess. For their extreme usability as weapons. I always thought it was because they add to blocking ac. I'm an idiot. I'll switch out my vorpal/gs/paralyzing/attack bonus adding weapon for a shield immediately.


Shields add to overall ac and blocking dr.

[Sir_Chonas]

Not to nitpic more, but....




Shields add to overall ac and blocking dr.

It's a portmanteau :)

[Cyr]

In short anyone who says "need tank" in an LFM that is not advertising for a main tank slot in a raid is 95% likely to be a very ill informed new player or a noob. Tanks in the classic MMO sense are rarely needed in DDO. Building to be a 'tank' over other qualities often results in a gimp build. Examples include, sword and board intimitanks who have very poor dps when they switch out of sword and board, extremely high hit point fighter/barb builds which sacrifice way too much to achieve a pretty pointless goal (we are talking about those 700+ hp builds here), and very high AC non-evasion tanks with horrible dps. More common and smarter LFM's might advertise for DPS as most decent builds which can tank can also dps well.

[Montrose]

No we don't, I was being facetious. Do you know what facetious means? It means over exaggeratedly sarcastic to a point of ludicrousness.


Merriam-Webster disagrees with you.




I tire of having to defend altruism.

Then don't. It's a fairly safe assumption that nobody is forcing you to reply.

[TheDjinnFor]

In my perspective, tank and DPS can be interchangeable. For example, I've gotten complements on my barb for "tanking" a red-name on elite when all I really did was get a full health bar and suck up damage, not requiring any healing, and have 5 hp by the end of it. That's not really tanking things with impenetrable armor, but having a thicker wooden wall that could suck up more punishment before it broke. Sure, DR works, but still...

Tank is really just something that can take a lot of punishment before anyone has to worry about anything, and a DPS is something that can dish out punishment before anyone gets too worried and hurt, and many classes can do both at once to varying degrees of specialty. It's the poor-HD, low-AC, weak-saves, alternate-advantages, and/or partial-casting types that can't really tank, but they make up for that in other areas.

From what I see, it's Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Monk as the dps/tank and the Rogue/Ranger/Bard as the dps/support. Funny, because I think that Turbine divided up the classes the exact same way (or pretty close to it), calling them melee and support, respectively.

[Favis]

I think Renegade66 had the best explaintion so far.
The diffrence between Intim-Tank and Hate Tank is worth to noting for some new player.

Sometimes also "def-Tank" is used to show that you are speaking about a melee that don't do much damage but hold agro (as the word "Tank" is to undefined used in DDO.)

Some melee terms pretty much just mean one thing:
- "DPS" (or Beater) = A melee that dishes out a lot of damage per second. These may have some durability, but are hired to dish out the damage first and foremost.
- "Intim" = A melee that uses intimidation skill to hold aggro. These must be high AC or high Damage Reduction or both. They are not expected to dish out damage.
- "Hate Tank" = A melee that uses "hate" bonuses to enhance their limited DPS to hold aggro over DPS melee that will dish out more damage. These will have high AC or just a ton of hit points.
- "Main Tank" = A melee that can hold aggro on a raid boss and with either enough AC/DR to minimize damage taken or with enough hit points to give healers time to keep him/her alive. A main tank must be able to hold aggro either through massive DPS, hate dmg or intimidation skill.
- "Sword and Board" = A melee that uses a shield and one handed weapon to balance between durability and DPS. With very few exceptions, if you are a S&B that is not an Intim (or possibly a hate tank), you are probably not going to contribute much to high-end content who are looking for toons that can dish out the DPS.

"Tank" however is used for myriad meanings. "Tank" is sometimes used to represent a melee of any kind. Sometimes it is used the same as "Main Tank". Basically, the use of "Tank" can mean anything, so you can't define what a "Tank" is NOT. It just depends on the situation it is used.

[Ellyll]

In most MMO's a tank is someone who can gain and hold agro and is sturdy enough not to die from it. (Esp. when backed by a healer.)

As mentioned before, DPS means damage per second, and when referred to as a character means someone hit does a lot of damage for extended periods of time.

In general (theory), DPS should either be sturdy enough to take a few hits if the tanks looses agro (Like a two handed fighter), or be back far enough to give the tank time to regain agro, or at least kill whatever it is you agro'd before it gets to you. (Like a nuke caster.) Normally when someone just says they are looking for DPS they mean the melee form.

These terms, to the absolute best of my knowledge, did not originate in D&D, either in paper or computer form, but from earlier group oriented MMO's.

[Vanshilar]

These terms, to the absolute best of my knowledge, did not originate in D&D, either in paper or computer form, but from earlier group oriented MMO's.

They probably came from earlier than the advent of MMO's. I remember using them in MUD's (online text-based multiplayer RPGs) in the 1990s; the tank referred to the one who would be holding the monster's aggro so that everyone else could beat up on it.

[gwlech]

A "tank" can be anyone who can hold aggro with the idea of mitigating incoming damage to a group. With this said, contrary to what many would think, a well played sorcerer/wizard can make one of the best "tanks" in the game for most situations.

Everyone in a group should be DPS of some sort. DPS is the ability to deal damage and to kill.

I rarely think in terms of dps/healing/tank in ddo, as just about any build should be able to do some of each of these roles.

With the exception of a few situations in the game, a dedicated tank is not an efficient member of a group in MOST cases as it falls along the line of "healbot clerics" and "trapmonkey rogues" and "glass cannon arcanes"

[KKDragonLord]

What does it mean when I read people saying their toon is a DPS fighter, and others saying they are making a TANK ?
I thought DPS was just a way of saying Damage/Per/Swing and a TANK was just a fighter who was very hard to kill and could be used to block doorways and fight toe-to-toe. I thought DPS was just a measurement stat for how well a TANK did damage.

How are these two different things and, if they are different, how are they played differently ?

A DPS is about dealing as much damage as possible

The common use of Tank in DDO relates to High HP characters who can get Aggro, this is what is confusing about it because both categories can have this but DPS characters with low HP are Squishies who tend to die when they have aggro.

The true Tank is about reducing damage to other party members.

A Tank is about having the greatest possible defenses against damage, such as High AC and Evasion, while at the same time, managing to Get and Hold Aggro, with intimidate or increased Hate abilities.

There are several ways of damage mitigation and resource conservation in DDO, such as Damage Reduction, healing amplification, elemental absorption, etc... And many classes and races have these in some level, which can makes it difficult to pigeonhole the Tank role, because lots of characters have some kind of Tank abilities.

At this point in the game, True High AC is extremely costly on DPS, that makes true Tanks have problems either holding aggro or meaningfully contributing to killing the enemy fast enough to avoid extending the battle unnecessarily, and thus negating the mitigation or conservation they should provide.

Paladin Defenders of Syberis are an example of a class who can use a Shield and increase aggro with enhancement abilities.