Riby's take on Zerging

[Rigby1]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

So recap: IF YOU WANT TO ZERG, ADVERTISE OR JOIN A GROUP THAT SAYS QUICK RUN OR ZERGING. YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO GET A HIRELING OR DO IT ALL BY YOURSELF. THAT SCENARIO DOESN'T PRESENT MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU'RE DOING ANYWAY, PLUS THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS OF NOT BEING CAPABLE OF ****ING ANYBODY OFF. COMMON COURTESY IS NOT TO ZERG IN GROUPS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY SAY SO.

[Salaman]

I'm a bottom line type of guy..


Bottom line here is that you got XP and loot with minimal effort on your part. He probably thought he was doing you a favor.

[bobbryan2]

Hi! Welcome to the game!

Now... I'd like to thank you for setting yourself up as the standard by which all others should be judged. And after a few short months no less!

Impressive.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I see dings in your future op... :rolleyes:

[Samadhi]

Why is it that slow play should be the default? Why can zerging not be the default; and it the responsibility of you to post "slow play" if that is what you want?

[Mhykke]

....

No, common courtesy is, if you have a certain playstyle in mind, like "no zerging" or "slowplay", then make sure you put that in your LFM.

If the LFM says nothing, then anything goes. That, is common courtesy. It's not up to people joining the group to guess that there's a specific playstyle that the leader has in mind. If the leader wants to run a quest a specific way, let people know.

Easy as that.

[SolarDawning]

The people who zerg do so because they have done the quest many, if not dozens of times already, know it by heart, and are confident that they are capable of quickly and efficiently finishing the quest with a minimum of difficulty and wasted resources.

Once you've done content that many times, you get pretty tired of it, and want to do it as quick as possible.

This isn't the way -every- quest is played. Take elite difficulty Amrath, for example. I did an elite Bastion of Power run last night, and I'll tell you, we took it steady and stuck together. Individually, these were powerful characters that would breeze through any lower difficulty setting, but used different tactics for the truly challenging content.

Just because the content challenges you, doesn't mean everyone else needs to play down to that level. If they're comfortable moving at a faster pace, that's their prerogative.

[QuintonReece]

Hi Welcome.

[Rigby1]

The people who zerg do so because they have done the quest many, if not dozens of times already, know it by heart, and are confident that they are capable of quickly and efficiently finishing the quest with a minimum of difficulty and wasted resources.

Once you've done content that many times, you get pretty tired of it, and want to do it as quick as possible.

This isn't the way -every- quest is played. Take elite difficulty Amrath, for example. I did an elite Bastion of Power run last night, and I'll tell you, we took it steady and stuck together. Individually, these were powerful characters that would breeze through any lower difficulty setting, but used different tactics for the truly challenging content.

Just because the content challenges you, doesn't mean everyone else needs to play down to that level. If they're comfortable moving at a faster pace, that's their prerogative.

I know why the people who zerg zerg. If I want to blow through stuff, I usually do it like I said, with a hireling or by myself... that way I'm not ruining anybody's experience by hogging all the killing. The stand up thing to do in groups is to play down to other people's levels if you're more experienced, and show patience. Its cooperative, not competitive. Automatically assume that you've got someone who needs to move slower in a five or six man group. I think most people are more interested in actually playing than hanging out in a dungeon recieving free experience. What do you do with the experience anyway once you earn it, you use it to play more, otherwise its pointless. Zerging is selfish, which is a horrible human trait. This isn't WoW. I haven't been playing this particular computer game for years like some, but I've been pen and paper for over two decades, have been playing most D&D computer games that have come out since the early 90s, and have a good understanding of the rule system and essence of dungeons and dragons. I usually only have to run through a quest once on normal to get it down. I often do this with a hireling or by myself as well. I try to only group on elite for quests that suggest 4 or more players. I rarely feel people are playing down to my level, they're just moving past stuff I don't want to move past, like loot, or they're leaving a few peeps in the dust, and like I said, when you play with a group, you play WITH a group. I sometimes just keep up with the person up front, but it makes me feel like sh1t because I know that person wandering around in the middle isn't getting much out of the game. I'm sorry I think of others from time to time. I don't get how anybody could say that zerging is anything but rude. Zerging is a synonym of impatience, another very bad quality that some people need to work on. That simple. I'm human, and I get a little overzealous sometimes, but I slow myself down so that everyone can be involved. Its called self control. I also hate how some of the people who've been playing for a long time think this game is like rocket science, and requires years and years of experience to be proficient, its not. Its actually pretty simple when you get down to it. I wrote this thread, not really because it bugs me that much, but to voice my thoughts and upset a few people who probably need feces rubbed in their face anyway. The ethics of some of you "experienced" players is totally out of whack. I don't have feces, I have a computer... so smell it and love it.

[HeavenlyCloud]

You know i don't know why i never get this type of people in my parties... piking is something i love to do but man i must be the most unluckiest guy in DDO to never be able to pike a quest without faking my afk.

[Rigby1]

No, common courtesy is, if you have a certain playstyle in mind, like "no zerging" or "slowplay", then make sure you put that in your LFM.

If the LFM says nothing, then anything goes. That, is common courtesy. It's not up to people joining the group to guess that there's a specific playstyle that the leader has in mind. If the leader wants to run a quest a specific way, let people know.

Easy as that.

What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. He's never heard the word zerging, doesn't know what the acronym LFM stands for. He's barely got a handle on p2p. No, its best to assume that there is lack of experience or at least ask before you zerg. Its more about not being selfish, and showing some patience and character to me though. You're right people should, but they don't, and zerging is more a show of bad character through lack of patience and regard for others than keeping together, which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.

[Rigby1]

Why is it that slow play should be the default? Why can zerging not be the default; and it the responsibility of you to post "slow play" if that is what you want?

What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. He's never heard the word zerging, doesn't know what the acronym LFM stands for. He's barely got a handle on p2p. No, its best to assume that there is lack of experience or at least ask before you zerg. Its more about not being selfish, and showing some patience and character to me though. You're right people should, but they don't, and zerging is more a show of bad character through lack of patience and regard for others than keeping together, which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.

[Rigby1]

Bottom line here is that you got XP and loot with minimal effort on your part. He probably thought he was doing you a favor.

No, experience means nothing really. Its pointless if you don't get to do anything with it.

[Stonen]

I agree with the OP that it is more fun for everyone if you stay together and let everyone enjoy the quest. Unless the lfm says zerg or fast or something I allways stay with the group. If somebody zerges I ask to wait for the group and usually they slow down so the group can just keep up. This way the enjoy the game and also learn how fast the contest can be done.
Btw, I've been playing in Europe for 3 years, and can zerg most quests as well.

[SirAggravator]

I would definitely put a comment in the LFM - like slow/non-rush this still does not guarantee
people will not zerg however because everyone can have different views on what slow play is...
My only tip would be to go low man groups (ideally 3 new players) that way you get to experience the quests
at a slower pace and everyone can contribute more.
Also if you're new to a quest be sure to say so - that way the group can avoid spoiling (or tourguiding as much as possible). After all we all once were newbies :D

My 2 cents.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I know why the people who zerg zerg. If I want to blow through stuff, I usually do it like I said, with a hireling or by myself... that way I'm not ruining anybody's experience by hogging all the killing. The stand up thing to do in groups is to play down to other people's levels if you're more experienced, and show patience. Its cooperative, not competitive. Automatically assume that you've got someone who needs to move slower in a five or six man group. I think most people are more interested in actually playing than hanging out in a dungeon recieving free experience. What do you do with the experience anyway once you earn it, you use it to play more, otherwise its pointless. Zerging is selfish, which is a horrible human trait. This isn't WoW. I haven't been playing this particular computer game for years like some, but I've been pen and paper for over two decades, have been playing most D&D computer games that have come out since the early 90s, and have a good understanding of the rule system and essence of dungeons and dragons. I usually only have to run through a quest once on normal to get it down. I often do this with a hireling or by myself as well. I try to only group on elite for quests that suggest 4 or more players. I rarely feel people are playing down to my level, they're just moving past stuff I don't want to move past, like loot, or they're leaving a few peeps in the dust, and like I said, when you play with a group, you play WITH a group. I sometimes just keep up with the person up front, but it makes me feel like sh1t because I know that person wandering around in the middle isn't getting much out of the game. I'm sorry I think of others from time to time. I don't get how anybody could say that zerging is anything but rude. Zerging is a synonym of impatience, another very bad quality that some people need to work on. That simple. I'm human, and I get a little overzealous sometimes, but I slow myself down so that everyone can be involved. Its called self control. I also hate how some of the people who've been playing for a long time think this game is like rocket science, and requires years and years of experience to be proficient, its not. Its actually pretty simple when you get down to it. I wrote this thread, not really because it bugs me that much, but to voice my thoughts and upset a few people who probably need feces rubbed in their face anyway. The ethics of some of you "experienced" players is totally out of whack. I don't have feces, I have a computer... so smell it and love it.

1. Paragraphs FTW...

2. People said it before but... You can state how YOU like to play or how YOUR group in YOUR lfm is going to run the quest. You can't say "mine is the only logical standard, and unless stated specificly otherwise, everyone must comform by it"...
Try to understand the difference man.

[Gorstag]

No actually you want people to downplay their toons, which is selfish on your part. WHy should others change their playstyles because YOU did not mention in YOUR lfm that it was a NON-zerg group. That is all that should have to be done. When I make a new toon, which I do often as I now have 18 character slots on my account. I zerg the hell out of everything with a goal to be level 8 - 10 by the end of my gaming time on the first day. The low level content is nothing, the true goal to 99% of experienced players is getting to and playing end-game content. Either live with it, or simply announce what kind of groups you are making.

[Mhykke]

...which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.

Oh, moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default huh? Really? You sure about that?

Ok, so I join your group. I move 5 feet every five minutes. And then I stop.

You're saying the ENTIRE party should move right along next to me and wait for me?

Get real.

[Nott]

I agree in sentiment with the OP, which I interpret to mean don't do whatever you please at the expense of the fun of your group. I admit though, to interpret the OP wording like that, I have to stretch quite a bit.


What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. He's never heard the word zerging, doesn't know what the acronym LFM stands for. He's barely got a handle on p2p. No, its best to assume that there is lack of experience or at least ask before you zerg. Its more about not being selfish, and showing some patience and character to me though. You're right people should, but they don't, and zerging is more a show of bad character through lack of patience and regard for others than keeping together, which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.Am I the only one that reads this as "Think of the children!"?

[Judo]

i think you meant to post on the Role Playing/Flower Sniffing section of these forums.

Some people just play fast, as a norm, a real zerger wouldn't join your group, because it would have been soloed already. What you experienced was a fast player.

[Visty]

Zerging is the default speed, if you dont like it, put 'slow' into your lfm and join only those

[Rigby1]

1. Paragraphs FTW...

2. People said it before but... You can state how YOU like to play or how YOUR group in YOUR lfm is going to run the quest. You can't say "mine is the only logical standard, and unless stated specificly otherwise, everyone must comform by it"...
Try to understand the difference man.

I'm well aware of that. Thanks for the newsflash. Nothing really matters about anything in the realm of opinion, and fact isn't really fact because nothing be truely certain aside from the existance of our conciousness'. But alot of people don't state how they like to play, and from my experience, the people who don't are the people that aren't zerging, or aren't familiar enough with the game to think to do it. If I'm concerned about the playstyle, I will. Often I don't know till the groups going, I can't stand watching one person struggle, and another zerg. Its awful. Sometimes I don't on purpus, because I just want to see who I consider rude, and how rude they are, so I can have the fun of kicking them and then squelching them later. It gets me hard. meow.

[Rigby1]

Zerging is the default speed, if you dont like it, put 'slow' into your lfm and join only those

You don't retain much information from what you read, do you?

[Rigby1]

Oh, moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default huh? Really? You sure about that?

Ok, so I join your group. I move 5 feet every five minutes. And then I stop.

You're saying the ENTIRE party should move right along next to me and wait for me?

Get real.

There is always a middle. If someone is moving 5 feet every five minutes, then they're either not paying attention, and don't give a **** what you do, or they're having major technical issues, and should be understanding of people moving ahead of them. Do I really need to adjectify every noun I use (and yes, I realize adjectify isn't a real word, but it should be). I'll restate... slowest legitimate player... now I have to define legitimate. Use your brain ds (by the way, that's an acronym, for dip sh1t). Be reasonable. I suppose my perspective on this is just a little diluted by realism. There's no room for reason in fantasy.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I'm well aware of that. Thanks for the newsflash. Nothing really matters about anything in the realm of opinion, and fact isn't really fact because nothing be truely certain aside from the existance of our conciousness'. But alot of people don't state how they like to play, and from my experience, the people who don't are the people that aren't zerging, or aren't familiar enough with the game to think to do it. If I'm concerned about the playstyle, I will. Often I don't know till the groups going, I can't stand watching one person struggle, and another zerg. Its awful. Sometimes I don't on purpus, because I just want to see who I consider rude, and how rude they are, so I can have the fun of kicking them and then squelching them later. It gets me hard. meow.

So let me get this staright:
You wait to see if a person is (by your definition, not the objective one) an incosiderate griefing bastard, and then you get your kicks from griefing them in return.
Yep, very mature. You're the best... :rolleyes:

[flynnjsw]

Zerging is the default speed, if you dont like it, put 'slow' into your lfm and join only those


While I by no means agree with the OP, there in no "default speed". People play how they like to play, period.

As far as the actual OP, what is rude is expecting people to read YOUR mind. You should never expect that, what you should expect in a pug is to follow the person with the star, or follow what is in the LFM. If it says slow play, then zergers should not join your group. If you put zerg/fast play/know the quest in your LFM, then slow play people shouldn't join your group. THAT is common courtesy, not expecting to play to YOUR style.

[katana_one]

While I by no means agree with the OP, there in no "default speed". People play how they like to play, period.

…what you should expect in a pug is to follow the person with the star, or follow what is in the LFM.

This is my default speed - especially if the group contains both fast and slow players, or players who scatter in multiple directions.

[Rigby1]

So let me get this staright:
You wait to see if a person is (by your definition, not the objective one) an incosiderate griefing bastard, and then you get your kicks from griefing them in return.
Yep, very mature. You're the best... :rolleyes:

I think you're finally getting it. You're so fun.

[Visty]

You don't retain much information from what you read, do you?

more then you, thats for sure

[Judo]

bottom line, call me a prophet, but in less then 1 year, you will be zerging, and hopefully not calling it something else for fear of negating all these pure logic based assumptions

[Rigby1]

more then you, thats for sure

Then you would have noted that I do put my playspeed if its important to me. But regardless of what I do, or what people think people should do, the reality is that most people don't, and statistically speaking, there's going to be a newbie or someone who moves at a slower pace in a publically advertised group who's play experience is going to be diminished due to some of the zerging behavior out there.

[Rigby1]

bottom line, call me a prophet, but in less then 1 year, you will be zerging, and hopefully not calling it something else for fear of negating all these pure logic based assumptions

Oh, I zerg already. Frequently actually. Just not with other players who aren't.

[Rigby1]

So let me get this staright:
You wait to see if a person is (by your definition, not the objective one) an incosiderate griefing bastard, and then you get your kicks from griefing them in return.
Yep, very mature. You're the best... :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Your level of insight is amazing. I was being sarcastic when I was speaking of purposefully not listing my playstyle just to mess with others. Do you interpret the bible literally too?

[katana_one]

Then you would have noted that I do put my playspeed if its important to me. But regardless of what I do, or what people think people should do, the reality is that most people don't, and statistically speaking, there's going to be a newbie or someone who moves at a slower pace in a publically advertised group who's play experience is going to be diminished due to some of the zerging behavior out there.

OP, I know where you're coming from, having been playing the game for around the same amount of time as you (judging only by our join dates, mind you). I tend to be a bit of a "flower sniffer" myself.

But there are battles you can win and battles you can't. Just my 2 cents, but ultimately everyone is responsible for their own DDO experience. If someone "diminishes" my play experience by zerging, then it's up to me to do something about it - say something to the zerger, or try a different group, or solo the quest, or whatever I need to do to make it more fun for me. I don't expect the other players to cater to me (unless I'm leading the group - in which case I've clearly stated my goals in the LFM).

[flynnjsw]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Your level of insight is amazing. I was being sarcastic when I was speaking of purposefully not listing my playstyle just to mess with others. Do you interpret the bible literally too?
So in other words again expecting people to read your mind.

As far as the bible thing, get that off of this forum. This is a gaming forum and those references have no place here.

[Rigby1]

While I by no means agree with the OP, there in no "default speed". People play how they like to play, period.

As far as the actual OP, what is rude is expecting people to read YOUR mind. You should never expect that, what you should expect in a pug is to follow the person with the star, or follow what is in the LFM. If it says slow play, then zergers should not join your group. If you put zerg/fast play/know the quest in your LFM, then slow play people shouldn't join your group. THAT is common courtesy, not expecting to play to YOUR style.

Oh, I totally agree with you about following the leader. Still doesn't curb the zerging. I've noticed, as I tend to advertise groups as opposed to join them, mostly because I'm a control freak. It doesn't matter what I do in terms of listing... if it matters to me, I list it. If it doesn't, which it often doesn't, I don't. You can say, you should do this, or you should do that, over and over again. Most people don't list their play style, or do, and then don't stick to it. The reality is just as you said, people play how they like to play. Doesn't change that there are probably some slow movers in a publically advertised group of six. I'm thinking bout' these guys. I'm rarely incovenienced by zerging. I just don't like it when people are inconsiderate of others. Nothings going to change that. People are as$holes. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[flynnjsw]

Oh, you did get my sarcasm there. Good, I didn't think you'd miss that one. Its not about reading my mind, its about the normal everyday person out there not doing what you think that person should do.

Have a great day, I mean that seriously. I'm just having some fun. I really don't care if I offend sometimes, I'm usually not very serious when it comes to things like video games. I think the outlandishness of my wordchoice usually is enough to get that across. I must admit, and it is probably a little immature of me, that I do find it a little amusing when other people do take meaningless stuff like video games seriously. BTW, that's not sarcasm.

About the bible thing, I'll write what I want to write. I'm an author, and the bible has been a big reference material for my latest project, I suppose it was just on the top of my mind at the moment. I don't really care one way or the other about ancient mythology anyway. It was just an offhand comment.

It has nothing to do with being offended...it's a violation of the TOS.

[Judo]

Oh, I zerg already. Frequently actually. Just not with other players who aren't.

i dont think you zerg

you dont know the secret handshake


http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Creatures_and_Cartoons/Smurfs/Handshake.gif

[Rigby1]

It has nothing to do with being offended...it's a violation of the TOS.

Really? I don't usually post on forums. I was just bored and thought this topic would keep me entertained for a little while. I didn't even consider reading the terms of service. My bad. I'll keep this bit of info in mind for future reference... though I really hate it when I feel like I'm being told what I can and can't do... but who doesn't, right?

[flynnjsw]

Really? I don't usually post on forums. I was just bored and thought this topic would keep me entertained for a little while. I didn't even consider reading the terms of service. My bad. I'll keep this bit of info in mind for future reference... though I really hate it when I feel like I'm being told what I can and can't do... but who doesn't, right?


Well no one that I know of LIKES to be told what to do, but there are rules for a reason. The really sad part is that someone decided to be offended by MY comment and neg repped me for pointing out a violation of the TOS...lol.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Your level of insight is amazing. I was being sarcastic when I was speaking of purposefully not listing my playstyle just to mess with others. Do you interpret the bible literally too?

Ok, now I think you're a hipocrite as well.

[adamkatt]

I know why the people who zerg zerg. If I want to blow through stuff, I usually do it like I said, with a hireling or by myself... that way I'm not ruining anybody's experience by hogging all the killing. The stand up thing to do in groups is to play down to other people's levels if you're more experienced, and show patience. Its cooperative, not competitive. Automatically assume that you've got someone who needs to move slower in a five or six man group. I think most people are more interested in actually playing than hanging out in a dungeon recieving free experience. What do you do with the experience anyway once you earn it, you use it to play more, otherwise its pointless. Zerging is selfish, which is a horrible human trait. This isn't WoW. I haven't been playing this particular computer game for years like some, but I've been pen and paper for over two decades, have been playing most D&D computer games that have come out since the early 90s, and have a good understanding of the rule system and essence of dungeons and dragons. I usually only have to run through a quest once on normal to get it down. I often do this with a hireling or by myself as well. I try to only group on elite for quests that suggest 4 or more players. I rarely feel people are playing down to my level, they're just moving past stuff I don't want to move past, like loot, or they're leaving a few peeps in the dust, and like I said, when you play with a group, you play WITH a group. I sometimes just keep up with the person up front, but it makes me feel like sh1t because I know that person wandering around in the middle isn't getting much out of the game. I'm sorry I think of others from time to time. I don't get how anybody could say that zerging is anything but rude. Zerging is a synonym of impatience, another very bad quality that some people need to work on. That simple. I'm human, and I get a little overzealous sometimes, but I slow myself down so that everyone can be involved. Its called self control. I also hate how some of the people who've been playing for a long time think this game is like rocket science, and requires years and years of experience to be proficient, its not. Its actually pretty simple when you get down to it. I wrote this thread, not really because it bugs me that much, but to voice my thoughts and upset a few people who probably need feces rubbed in their face anyway. The ethics of some of you "experienced" players is totally out of whack. I don't have feces, I have a computer... so smell it and love it.

I didnt read this... the enter key is your friend....

[Rigby1]

Well no one that I know of LIKES to be told what to do, but there are rules for a reason. The really sad part is that someone decided to be offended by MY comment and neg repped me for pointing out a violation of the TOS...lol.

I just read the ToS. Its pretty grey. I'm not being ethnically abusive. If I called someone ignorant for their beliefs, it would be violation. Asking if someone interprets it literally, or referring to it as mythology aren't personal attacks. But it is still open to interpretation because it uses the clause reasonable person.

[Stealthdog]

This thread is all because someone isn't getting the high kill counts he wants or feels he deserves, not because the quest is getting done quicker. Who cares about kill counts? People zerg not because they have done the quest a dozen times and know it by heart, but because they have done it hundreds/thousands of times. Fault DDO for not creating enough new content before you complain about guys, who have been around for years, doing a quest too quickly and "stealing" all of your kills. :)

[Josh]

oh, You Did Get My Sarcasm There. Good, I Didn't Think You'd Miss That One. Its Not About Reading My Mind, Its About The Normal Everyday Person Out There Not Doing What You Think That Person Should Do.

Have A Great Day, I Mean That Seriously. I'm Just Having Some Fun. I Really Don't Care If I Offend Sometimes, I'm Usually Not Very Serious When It Comes To Things Like Video Games. I Think The Outlandishness Of My Wordchoice Usually Is Enough To Get That Across. I Must Admit, And It Is Probably A Little Immature Of Me, That I Do Find It A Little Amusing When Other People Do Take Meaningless Stuff Like Video Games Seriously. Btw, That's Not Sarcasm.

About The Bible Thing, I'll Write What I Want To Write. I'm An Author, And The Bible Has Been A Big Reference Material For My Latest Project, I Suppose It Was Just On The Top Of My Mind At The Moment. I Don't Really Care One Way Or The Other About Ancient Mythology Anyway. It Was Just An Offhand Comment.

/troll

[flynnjsw]

I just read the ToS. Its pretty grey. I'm not being ethnically abusive. If I called someone ignorant for their beliefs, it would be violation. Asking if someone interprets it literally, or referring to it as mythology aren't personal attacks. But it is still open to interpretation because it uses the clause reasonable person.


http://forums.ddo.com/announcement.php?f=211&a=4

Look there...# 12 to be precise.

12. Discussion of religious or political topics is prohibited on the DDO forums.

[Rigby1]

Ok, now I think you're a hipocrite as well.

I really don't care what you think of me. You're just a bunch of words on a screen to me. Everyone is a hypocrite from time to time. I do hope that you can plaster a smile on your face and not take any of this so seriously. I would hate to go through life upset at a bunch of meaningless words on a screen. Regardless of what you think of me, I hope you aren't angry. I don't care if you're angry at me or not, I just don't like the thought of anybody walking around angry for any reason. Life is too short for anger. I hope you manage that smile i mentioned.

[Rigby1]

http://forums.ddo.com/announcement.php?f=211&a=4

Look there...# 12 to be precise.

12. Discussion of religious or political topics is prohibited on the DDO forums.

My lawyer would have a hayday with that line... but I see your point.

[Psyker]

Really? I don't usually post on forums. I was just bored and thought this topic would keep me entertained for a little while. I didn't even consider reading the terms of service. My bad. I'll keep this bit of info in mind for future reference... though I really hate it when I feel like I'm being told what I can and can't do... but who doesn't, right?

Wow, you don't like to be told what you can and can't do, yet your whole post is telling people not to zerg and "hog all the kills". Guess I can't blame you too much, I hate it when people get all the kills and I miss out on xp...oh wait thats not how it works.

[Catholicon]

My advice: Stay near the healer and let the zergers go and get themselves killed. Then laugh at them for being n00bs.

[Tumarek]

Although the OP gives me a trollish feeling i would actual agree with him.

The speed of a group is the speed you should be running. If doing quests at a normal pace is too slow for you dont enter groups that don't have zerging or something similar advertised.

Don't join groups that say zerging if you are new to the quest.

It is after all a group game and if you want to do things at your own speed make sure everybody is ok with that or play alone.

Half the people in my squelch list where people that came into a group, ran all over the place and then left because they were not pleased with the speed of the other people. Other half are people who enter groups that say quick run, zerging... and start cussing at people because they dont want to share the quest which you get at the questgiver and you actually are 3/4 finished by the time you get around kicking them.

[hermespan]

Why is it that slow play should be the default? Why can zerging not be the default; and it the responsibility of you to post "slow play" if that is what you want?

qft

If you join a PuG, and the zerg mode isn't specified, don't complain about people zerging. If you want non-zerg PuGs start your own group and put that in the LFM.

[Rigby1]

This thread is all because someone isn't getting the high kill counts he wants or feels he deserves, not because the quest is getting done quicker. Who cares about kill counts? People zerg not because they have done the quest a dozen times and know it by heart, but because they have done it hundreds/thousands of times. Fault DDO for not creating enough new content before you complain about guys, who have been around for years, doing a quest too quickly and "stealing" all of your kills. :)

You're kind of right I suppose. I usually don't play straight tanks, and prefer to have some utility in my toonies. I do still manage considerable kill counts, but I have a hard time getting the most kills with a tank especially, let alone a zerging tank. That probably was originally the source of my frustration after I first joined. At this point, I don't care about kills really. I care about the guys who just signed up. The people who don't speak up. The people who haven't been around long enough to know how to properly advertise the kind of group they want. I went through all of that fairly recently, like October, so its still in my mind. Maybe the people who have been here for years can step back and remember what it was like when they started. Maybe the people who have been here can quit treating the game like its a country being invaded. I suppose I've sat in enough dungeons waiting for people to show up, while someone decides to start off zerging before half the group is even inside. I usually feel some responsiblity to at least wait. If half the group is up ahead, waiting usually means escorting too. The only way it usually effects me, is that zergers tend to fly by chests, and since I do alot of soloing, often with a hireling, I need to get every bit of loot I can to make a profit, especially before level 8. But that's a minor annoyance comparatively.

[Maleth]

I agree with the OP. Did Misery Elite yesterday with somebody who zergged and it was rather frustrating. It was a guild member of my buddy's, so I didn't say anything, but I **** near got killed because the offender trained a bunch of ghouls and wights and was way out in front of everybody else, which means there were large pockets of mobs everywhere we went.

Why is it wrong to assume the default is NOT to zerg? Sure you can put it into the LFM, but jeez. If somebody intends on zerging, why not ask the group leader what their intent is? Why is the onus put on anybody else but the zerger? Aren't we giving excuses to those that don't bother to consider the rest of the group?

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I really don't care what you think of me. You're just a bunch of words on a screen to me. Everyone is a hypocrite from time to time. I do hope that you can plaster a smile on your face and not take any of this so seriously. I would hate to go through life upset at a bunch of meaningless words on a screen. Regardless of what you think of me, I hope you aren't angry. I don't care if you're angry at me or not, I just don't like the thought of anybody walking around angry for any reason. Life is too short for anger. I hope you manage that smile i mentioned.

Just did. It's a smile of pity, but at least you got your wish :D

[jerryxenon]

T A BETTER USE OF YOUR TIME WOULD BE TO INSERT LARGE FALLIC SHAPED OBJECTS INTO YOUR ANUS REPEATEDLY, UNTIL SOMETHING RUPTURES AND YOU BLEED TO DEATH.

I think you need a little self introspection there Sunshine.

[Dragonhyde]

Eh, I think the type the op is really complaining about would not care if the lfm asked for non-zerge. You know the type that runs ahead tries to kill everything bragging about their gear then ding! followed by cursing out the healer. But then I may be wrong...:)

[valerieanne]

No, common courtesy is, if you have a certain playstyle in mind, like "no zerging" or "slowplay", then make sure you put that in your LFM.

If the LFM says nothing, then anything goes. That, is common courtesy. It's not up to people joining the group to guess that there's a specific playstyle that the leader has in mind. If the leader wants to run a quest a specific way, let people know.

Easy as that.

This is so true. I NEVER ever join an LFM that says "No Zerging", "Play as a group", "Move slowly" or any of the other iterations, when I intend to zerg ahead. Why don't you say so in your LFM? There are people doing so and plenty at that!

XOXO
Ears

[Rigby1]

Just did. It's a smile of pity, but at least you got your wish :D

At least you're smiling. I still suggest you focus on a reality based reason to smile, rather than smiling because you pity the presentation of my thoughts on zerging.

[Rigby1]

[QUOTE=Dragonhyde;2711531]Eh, I think the type the op is really complaining about would not care if the lfm asked for non-zerge. You know the type that runs ahead tries to kill everything bragging about their gear then ding! followed by cursing out the healer. But then I may be wrong...:)[/QUOTE

I think the hammerhead hit the nail squarely there.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

At least you're smiling. I still suggest you focus on a reality based reason to smile, rather than smiling because you pity the presentation of my thoughts on zerging.

Got plenty of reasons to smile, thanks for carying though.

No, the target of my pity was not he presntation of your thoughts, but the entire perception i now have of you as a person. Whether that perception has anything to do with reality is irrelevant, because all I have to work with is your posts. But still, what I percived made me smile in pity.

[valerieanne]

I'm well aware of that. Thanks for the newsflash. Nothing really matters about anything in the realm of opinion, and fact isn't really fact because nothing be truely certain aside from the existance of our conciousness'. But alot of people don't state how they like to play, and from my experience, the people who don't are the people that aren't zerging, or aren't familiar enough with the game to think to do it. If I'm concerned about the playstyle, I will. Often I don't know till the groups going, I can't stand watching one person struggle, and another zerg. Its awful. Sometimes I don't on purpus, because I just want to see who I consider rude, and how rude they are, so I can have the fun of kicking them and then squelching them later. It gets me hard. meow.

1. You really ought to use shorter paragraphs... Wall of text = rude ...

2. With DA, if someone zerged way forward, most likely you can stroll thru the dungeon with nothing too much to worry about, much less *struggle*.

2. More often than not, after grouping with you once, they wouldn't join your group anymore too, so it's okay to squelch. Most likely not necessary to kick too, since they would've left anyway :P

[visionary1977]

Uber Zzerging is okay.. i dont mind going through the quests as fast as possible, but imagine all the bonuses you are missing ;)

Zzerging is fun, its like getting the same xp in half the time.. Agreed!!!

Slow play is painful, its like taking twice as long as zzerging for the same xp.. BOO!! ;)

Really it comes down to pref.. i have put lfms up for quick runs (zzerging being an odd word imho)

when the party is full I ALWAYS say.. quick with opts, or just plain quick.. yes you can zzerg and get full bonuses or you can zzerg faster and not.. slowplay to me is like "whats around the corner, ooo i dont know. well we best wait for everyone to get here and then do a full kit inventory and put on our teflon pants, i noticed that there are scorch marks on the wall there and that might indicate fiery monsters.. what fiery monsters wow.. we better get a strategy together and then do nice flow chart diagrams about who is going to be there or here and then once we have checked our kit again we can go in nice and slow mind and then do battle and get glory..

20 mins later

the party turn the corridoor.. oooo a single kobold with a candle.. ATTACK!!!

0.2 seconds later

The party stand over the corpse of the kobold.. and the leaders says "well best we check our kit again now.. and then work out a flow chart diagram for the next corridoor. :P

My advice is if you dont like zzerging and its not your party.. when the zzerg starts say.. oh sorry guys, not my playstyle.. have fun and then leave..

no need to be rude, manners dont cost anything.

[adamkatt]

When to we get to hear Rigby's take on spacing out his sentences and Rigbys take on the Enter key?

[valerieanne]

What I consider REALLY rude though, is when I start a group and states 'Experienced Only'. I get newbies... So, maybe I am being vague I thought. New group states 'Experienced only. Be self sufficient'. I get newbies... Now I put so much onto my LFMs like 'Experienced Only. Speed Run. Be self sufficient. No babysitting' , basically I put as much as I have space for, and what do I get? You guessed it... newbies...

I wish I could get more of those 'zergers' that you mentioned into my groups .. *sigh* I'd even reward them with mnemonic pots if the xp is good :P

XOXO
Val

[Visty]

What I consider REALLY rude though, is when I start a group and states 'Experienced Only'. I get newbies... So, maybe I am being vague I thought. New group states 'Experienced only. Be self sufficient'. I get newbies... Now I put so much onto my LFMs like 'Experienced Only. Speed Run. Be self sufficient. No babysitting' , basically I put as much as I have space for, and what do I get? You guessed it... newbies...

I wish I could get more of those 'zergers' that you mentioned into my groups .. *sigh* I'd even reward them with mnemonic pots if the xp is good :P

XOXO
Val

try putting ''slow play'' into your lfms, as it seems the zergers only join those

[Stealthdog]

I agree with the OP. Did Misery Elite yesterday with somebody who zergged and it was rather frustrating. It was a guild member of my buddy's, so I didn't say anything, but I **** near got killed because the offender trained a bunch of ghouls and wights and was way out in front of everybody else, which means there were large pockets of mobs everywhere we went.

Why is it wrong to assume the default is NOT to zerg? Sure you can put it into the LFM, but jeez. If somebody intends on zerging, why not ask the group leader what their intent is? Why is the onus put on anybody else but the zerger? Aren't we giving excuses to those that don't bother to consider the rest of the group?

To be fair - there are 2 types of zergers. 1) Those who know the quests inside and out, go ahead and clear areas for the group, are self sufficient, and don't cause harm to the group and 2) Those who kind of know (maybe) the quest, go ahead of the group and die or bring a ton of mobs back to the group. I think the problem most have (including the OP) is probably with the 2nd type.

I typically stay with the group. But teaching zergers is kind of easy. If I am on one of my clerics, I won't follow zergers. If they die, they die, I collect their stone(s), and bring them to a shrine at my convenience. If they zerg into traps and die, I do the above, but I also taunt them with laughter and jokes about running into traps.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I think the default now IS zerging. People should assume a zerg unless it says otherwise.

[Rigby1]

Got plenty of reasons to smile, thanks for carying though.

No, the target of my pity was not he presntation of your thoughts, but the entire perception i now have of you as a person. Whether that perception has anything to do with reality is irrelevant, because all I have to work with is your posts. But still, what I percived made me smile in pity.

Fair enough. Good day sir, or madame if that be the case.

[Rigby1]

What I consider REALLY rude though, is when I start a group and states 'Experienced Only'. I get newbies... So, maybe I am being vague I thought. New group states 'Experienced only. Be self sufficient'. I get newbies... Now I put so much onto my LFMs like 'Experienced Only. Speed Run. Be self sufficient. No babysitting' , basically I put as much as I have space for, and what do I get? You guessed it... newbies...

I wish I could get more of those 'zergers' that you mentioned into my groups .. *sigh* I'd even reward them with mnemonic pots if the xp is good :P

XOXO
Val

You should probably include a join date, as alot of people you consider newbies, don't consider themselves newbies. Myself likely included.

[Rigby1]

When to we get to hear Rigby's take on spacing out his sentences and Rigbys take on the Enter key?

My apologies.

[Natulyre]

The OP Obviously fell in love with a zerger but can't keep up with him and that zerger never join "slow-play" groups so he's trying to manipulate everyone to be able to play hand to hand with his little zerging friend.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Fair enough. Good day sir, or madame if that be the case.

And to you.

[valerieanne]

You should probably include a join date, as alot of people you consider newbies, don't consider themselves newbies. Myself likely included.

Do read my post thoroughly before responding though, it's not as though it's a huge wall of text... I DID not put "newbies" in any of my lfm, I put things like Experienced only, be self sufficient, speed run, no babysitting etc etc... What do I get? "Newbies"...

"Newbies" by my definition is not very stringent either, you can ask me to share, I will tell you which house it is in, even. I expect you to have a pot for most nasty effect if you encounter some ... e.g. in WW elite, you're DEFINITELY gonna get cursed, and if you're some borderline melee, i.e. a battle bard with not much STR and needs some levels to shine, remember to get remove curse pots.

Most of the time, I WILL help you cure your curse, blindness, etc etc too, but it makes it so much more troublesome for me, all for YOUR fun in the game. Fair to me? Don't think so.

Val

[Enochroot]

You realize most of us zerg as quickly as possible and leave people behind so we can weed out quickly those who aren't helping us that day? The only reason to PuG it up is on a day you're looking for levelling buddies, and you are looking for those that will optimize your play time. (These people are not in "nonzerg" groups, so just write that in your LFM)


I guarantee, by the time the quest is done being zerged (6 minutes later) the following has happened:

zergerA->zergerB> yo - let's drop this group and farm bloody crypt

<finish quest><drop group><drop group>


I drool at the days I can find 6 man parties of competent zergers - not only is it a ton of fun to plow through content with competent players, it's also fantastic to be in groups where no one gives a rats' ass if you go afk for a quest or two. To get offended if someone is zerging? That's just insane. Take a quick nap, do the dishes, or do some work. It's fanTASTic to run into someone that's willing to just complete quests.


Anyway - both the zergers and you will be more than happy to part ways, so just do it. And make sure you only join/make nonzerg groups. That's the message you SHOULD be spreading.

[Arlith]

What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. ..... which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.


What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. ..... which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.

I think a change was just made to the matrix.

My opinioon on zerging. Most zergers are not zergers at all. People posting complaints about zergers here on the forums have never actually seen a zerger. I don't zerg well. When I run with zergers I am the one left behind screaming, "DIE BOX!" because that is all there is left to kill.

The people most people complain about here in the forums fall into two categories.

1. Efficient - Last time I was accused of "zerging" it wasn't about zerging at all. Stuff just died easy. The group is behind me, but damned if I know why. No one lost a hit point, everything is dead, everyone has buffs, there are no side passages, no chests, no traps, nothing to pick up/examine/open/close/flip/or swtich, everything had been explained. There weren't even any flowers. UUTF are you doing back there? There is nothing to do. Come on! I wasn't going to fast, they were going too slow. I was not guilty of zerging, they were guilty of PSA (People Standing Around). If I get a "You are about to be logged out due to inactivity" message waiting for a group to catch up, I am not waiting any more.

2. Morons - Run ahead, scream "Leeeeeeroy Jeeeeenkiiiiinnnnnsssss!" turn a few corners and die.

[Rigby1]

The OP Obviously fell in love with a zerger but can't keep up with him and that zerger never join "slow-play" groups so he's trying to manipulate everyone to be able to play hand to hand with his little zerging friend.

Thats rather inventive.

[Rigby1]

I think a change was just made to the matrix.

My opinioon on zerging. Most zergers are not zergers at all. People posting complaints about zergers here on the forums have never actually seen a zerger. I don't zerg well. When I run with zergers I am the one left behind screaming, "DIE BOX!" because that is all there is left to kill.

The people most people complain about here in the forums fall into two categories.

1. Efficient - Last time I was accused of "zerging" it wasn't about zerging at all. Stuff just died easy. The group is behind me, but damned if I know why. No one lost a hit point, everything is dead, everyone has buffs, there are no side passages, no chests, no traps, nothing to pick up/examine/open/close/flip/or swtich, everything had been explained. There weren't even any flowers. UUTF are you doing back there? There is nothing to do. Come on! I wasn't going to fast, they were going too slow. I was not guilty of zerging, they were guilty of PSA (People Standing Around). If I get a "You are about to be logged out due to inactivity" message waiting for a group to catch up, I am not waiting any more.

2. Morons - Run ahead, scream "Leeeeeeroy Jeeeeenkiiiiinnnnnsssss!" turn a few corners and die.



Hell yeah. You'd never guess it, but I'm all jenkumed up right now.... or maybe you would... hehehehe. Funny stuff.

[PedigreeDN]

I think rather than getting annoyed at the playstyles of different groups of players, what you should really be pushing for is for EVERYBODY who starts a team to put details in the LFM info about what they expect. Both zergers and non-zergers should clearly explain the kind of group that they want to run and the speed of questing they want.

That said, I do think that if the team leader didn't bother to specify, the default should be sticking together as a group, out of courtesy for the other players. But this would all be solved if the leader would be more specific about what they want in the LFM advertisement.

[kaelis]

No, common courtesy is, if you have a certain playstyle in mind, like "no zerging" or "slowplay", then make sure you put that in your LFM.

If the LFM says nothing, then anything goes. That, is common courtesy. It's not up to people joining the group to guess that there's a specific playstyle that the leader has in mind. If the leader wants to run a quest a specific way, let people know.

Easy as that.

This.

I don't join your lfm's and show you up. I make my own and finish the same quest solo with a lfm up incase any of your puggies is competent and wants an out.


You know i don't know why i never get this type of people in my parties... piking is something i love to do but man i must be the most unluckiest guy in DDO to never be able to pike a quest without faking my afk.


We now have proof blah. GTFO the forums while we're waiting for you!


What about that guy who's never really ran with a group before. You know that guy. He's never heard the word zerging, doesn't know what the acronym LFM stands for. He's barely got a handle on p2p. No, its best to assume that there is lack of experience or at least ask before you zerg. Its more about not being selfish, and showing some patience and character to me though. You're right people should, but they don't, and zerging is more a show of bad character through lack of patience and regard for others than keeping together, which is why moving at the pace of the slowest person should be the default.


No, experience means nothing really. Its pointless if you don't get to do anything with it.

This is the guy that gets to learn a lesson today. That lesson is what zerging is. Imagine that, bet ya he only needs the lesson once too. He can either decide he likes it, or not as he see's fit. Funny but dropping mid quest won't hurt my feelings if he'd like too.



Eh, I think the type the op is really complaining about would not care if the lfm asked for non-zerge. You know the type that runs ahead tries to kill everything bragging about their gear then ding! followed by cursing out the healer. But then I may be wrong...:)

I think the hammerhead hit the nail squarely there.


Stop equating idiots= zergers. I don't equate= slowbies to mentally handicapped, I think if I can respect you enoughy to put "zerging, running fast" in my lfms, you can afford to do the same and put "smelling the flowers, slow and easy, holding hands and kumbyah" in yours.

[evilnatas]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

isn't that a ghandi quote? :D
*WARNING*being too concerned with your own moral high ground can lead to disorientation.

@op, sounds like you need to accept the things you cannot change, have the courage and willingness to change the things you can (your own attitude and behavior) and find the wisdom and clarity to know the difference.


So recap: ..... IF YOU DO, I SUGGEST THAT A BETTER USE OF YOUR TIME WOULD BE TO INSERT LARGE FALLIC SHAPED OBJECTS INTO YOUR ANUS REPEATEDLY, UNTIL SOMETHING RUPTURES AND YOU BLEED TO DEATH.
give this a 2/10 for random inappropriate vulgarity.
just sayin....bent coat hanger. and I ain't even tryin hard.

[Bosco]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

So recap: IF YOU WANT TO ZERG, ADVERTISE OR JOIN A GROUP THAT SAYS QUICK RUN OR ZERGING. YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO GET A HIRELING OR DO IT ALL BY YOURSELF. THAT SCENARIO DOESN'T PRESENT MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU'RE DOING ANYWAY, PLUS THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS OF NOT BEING CAPABLE OF ****ING ANYBODY OFF. COMMON COURTESY IS NOT TO ZERG IN GROUPS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY SAY SO. IF YOU DO, I SUGGEST THAT A BETTER USE OF YOUR TIME WOULD BE TO INSERT LARGE FALLIC SHAPED OBJECTS INTO YOUR ANUS REPEATEDLY, UNTIL SOMETHING RUPTURES AND YOU BLEED TO DEATH.

No thanks I will continue to zerg. Cool story though.

[Rigby1]

You realize most of us zerg as quickly as possible and leave people behind so we can weed out quickly those who aren't helping us that day? The only reason to PuG it up is on a day you're looking for levelling buddies, and you are looking for those that will optimize your play time. (These people are not in "nonzerg" groups, so just write that in your LFM)


I guarantee, by the time the quest is done being zerged (6 minutes later) the following has happened:

zergerA->zergerB> yo - let's drop this group and farm bloody crypt

<finish quest><drop group><drop group>


I drool at the days I can find 6 man parties of competent zergers - not only is it a ton of fun to plow through content with competent players, it's also fantastic to be in groups where no one gives a rats' ass if you go afk for a quest or two. To get offended if someone is zerging? That's just insane. Take a quick nap, do the dishes, or do some work. It's fanTASTic to run into someone that's willing to just complete quests.


Anyway - both the zergers and you will be more than happy to part ways, so just do it. And make sure you only join/make nonzerg groups. That's the message you SHOULD be spreading.

To everything, turn turn turn. There is a season turn turn turn. And a time to every purpuse unto that mythical place we go when we die...
There's a time for zerging... when everyone is on the same page. It can be a blast. I just hate seeing blue dots halfway across the adventure map.

I like maximizing loot from time to time, but I'd call for non-zergers if that was my intention. I also like to get as much xp off the first time I do a quest on elite, because I want to get as much out of that 50% bonus as I can. I'd call for non-zergers in that case. It can take a long time to fill a group of zergers sometimes. Probably the biggest reason I don't call for zergers often, so I'll call for whatever I can get out of the general pop just to get a group going in a timely manner.

When it comes out of the general pop, it would be nice if the zergers would communicate their intentions or realize that its the general pop if no playstyle is mentioned. Thats common sense. XP handed on a plate is not a favor for a noob who needs the actual playing experience. They need to get their hands dirty to get better. Noobs should try to keep up, thats their responsiblity, but zergs need to learn to wait in these situations as well. Nobody likes compromise though, so we have these ridiculous threads in the forum.

No one needs to be standing around chatting while in a dungeon. Not every box needs smashed. Thats rude as hell to those who are trying to accomplish as much as they can in as little time as possible, especially if those people are being polite, and exercising self control. I like it when most of the monsters die... but thats a personal pref for sure. In most cases, it is not that time consuming to go for optionals or the extra chest or two, or to be a little more thorough. I mean, not every quest is the Tear of Drhakken, though the big optional in that one nets some decent xp.

[Bosco]

To everything, turn turn turn. There is a season turn turn turn. And a time to every purpuse unto that mythical place we go when we die...
There's a time for zerging... when everyone is on the same page. It can be a blast. I just hate seeing blue dots halfway across the adventure map.

So what exactly were you doing the whole time it took for that zerger to get halfway across the adventure map?


I like maximizing loot from time to time

What does eating a loot gem have to do with zerging?


When it comes out of the general pop, it would be nice if the zergers would communicate their intentions or realize that its the general pop if no playstyle is mentioned.

Next time you see someone in your group with a green steel weapon or well equiped you should boot them immediately. They know the quest you are running far too well and will run it quickly and efficiently.

[Rigby1]

isn't that a ghandi quote? :D
*WARNING*being too concerned with your own moral high ground can lead to disorientation.

@op, sounds like you need to accept the things you cannot change, have the courage and willingness to change the things you can (your own attitude and behavior) and find the wisdom and clarity to know the difference.


give this a 2/10 for random inappropriate vulgarity.
just sayin....bent coat hanger. and I ain't even tryin hard.

Here's your Ghandi quote: "even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth."

[Enochroot]

To everything, turn turn turn. There is a season turn turn turn. And a time to every purpuse unto that mythical place we go when we die...
There's a time for zerging... when everyone is on the same page. It can be a blast. I just hate seeing blue dots halfway across the adventure map.


As stated a million times, if the group is unmarked, play to your own playstyle and find who else wants to. Then drop group, split up, and have fun.




I like maximizing loot from time to time, but I'd call for non-zergers if that was my intention. I also like to get as much xp off the first time I do a quest on elite, because I want to get as much out of that 50% bonus as I can. I'd call for non-zergers in that case.


You get non-zergers to maximize loot and xp? You don't even make sense. You live in bizarro world. Zerging IS maximizing xp and loot. Otherwise you're not zerging, you're noobing.




It can take a long time to fill a group of zergers sometimes. Probably the biggest reason I don't call for zergers often, so I'll call for whatever I can get out of the general pop just to get a group going in a timely manner.


Who cares how long it takes to fill a zerg group? You're normally on the way to the quest as you autorun and put up the LFM. You're only looking for other zergers to parallel tasks in quests and speed things up. Wait for a zerg group? You have no idea what you're talking about.




When it comes out of the general pop, it would be nice if the zergers would communicate their intentions or realize that its the general pop if no playstyle is mentioned. Thats common sense. XP handed on a plate is not a favor for a noob who needs the actual playing experience. They need to get their hands dirty to get better. Noobs should try to keep up, thats their responsiblity, but zergs need to learn to wait in these situations as well. Nobody likes compromise though, so we have these ridiculous threads in the forum.


You started this ridiculous thread in the forum. And I'm glad it's your opinion zergers should wait, next time, just drop group (although the zergers probably already have for you) - and form another group with the non-zergers in the quest. You can help them all day in peace. It'll be grand.




No one needs to be standing around chatting while in a dungeon. Not every box needs smashed. Thats rude as hell to those who are trying to accomplish as much as they can in as little time as possible, especially if those people are being polite, and exercising self control. I like it when most of the monsters die... but thats a personal pref for sure. In most cases, it is not that time consuming to go for optionals or the extra chest or two, or to be a little more thorough. I mean, not every quest is the Tear of Drhakken, though the big optional in that one nets some decent xp.


Any good zerger these days IS doing the optionals. You clearly don't even understand zergers. I wonder how much zerging you've really seen? Nothing you refer to is even remotely close to what zergers do, except be far ahead of you.

[Josh]

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/3375/original/cool-story-bro.jpg?1244744914

[Rigby1]

So what exactly were you doing the whole time it took for that zerger to get halfway across the adventure map?



What does eating a loot gem have to do with zerging?



Next time you see someone in your group with a green steel weapon or well equiped you should boot them immediately. They know the quest you are running far too well and will run it quickly and efficiently.

I was waiting for the other three people to get to the dungeon... I do remember missing a jump once, and falling a little behind, and becoming frustrated, when I first joined. I've also seen people do some other ignorant ****, like soloing the last three levels of TR while half the group was repairing and freeing up inventory space.

I didn't say anything about loot gems. I don't waste my turbine points on them. I'm talking about grabbing chests.

Screw those people with green steel weapons, I wait for those people who show up in undead heavy quests with holy blunt AND slashing weapons... I get rid of them as soon as I see that white aura around the weapon. Can't risk benefiting from what they bring to the table.

[Khayvan]

Is zerging really considered the default? If that's true, that's bad news for me, I know I don't have the skills to keep up with good zerg players.


I think rather than getting annoyed at the playstyles of different groups of players, what you should really be pushing for is for EVERYBODY who starts a team to put details in the LFM info about what they expect. Both zergers and non-zergers should clearly explain the kind of group that they want to run and the speed of questing they want.

That said, I do think that if the team leader didn't bother to specify, the default should be sticking together as a group, out of courtesy for the other players. But this would all be solved if the leader would be more specific about what they want in the LFM advertisement.

QFT.

The other day I joined a group for a STK run with my FvS, LFM specifically said "need a healer" and was only looking for Clerics/FvS. So we started, the leader buffed himself up and took off like a bullet without a word. The group almost immediately scattered and the leader made little to no effort to keep us together or slow down at all. It was like this for the whole chain and I spent the entire time struggling to keep up with him, or just joining up with whoever was closest to me at the moment.

All the way through, I'm thinking to myself "Who asks for a healer and then spends the whole quest staying as far away from that healer as possible?" I really wondered why he even wanted a group, since he seemed to have little interest in playing with one.

I don't want to be a burden to the group I join. If the LFM had said "fast run" etc. or if the leader had told us before hand that he wanted to run quick, I wouldn't have joined and maybe he could have gotten someone better-suited to his style.

I've been thinking he was wrong for not communicating what he wanted. But now I wonder if I was wrong for not automatically assuming it was a zerg run?

[Gunga]

Easy as that.

Mhykke.

[Rigby1]

As stated a million times, if the group is unmarked, play to your own playstyle and find who else wants to. Then drop group, split up, and have fun.





You get non-zergers to maximize loot and xp? You don't even make sense. You live in bizarro world. Zerging IS maximizing xp and loot. Otherwise you're not zerging, you're noobing.





Who cares how long it takes to fill a zerg group? You're normally on the way to the quest as you autorun and put up the LFM. You're only looking for other zergers to parallel tasks in quests and speed things up. Wait for a zerg group? You have no idea what you're talking about.





You started this ridiculous thread in the forum. And I'm glad it's your opinion zergers should wait, next time, just drop group (although the zergers probably already have for you) - and form another group with the non-zergers in the quest. You can help them all day in peace. It'll be grand.





Any good zerger these days IS doing the optionals. You clearly don't even understand zergers. I wonder how much zerging you've really seen? Nothing you refer to is even remotely close to what zergers do, except be far ahead of you.


I'm talking about specific situations fool. Its as xp efficient to get as much xp as possible on your first elite run, as it is to run through quests quickly.

My comment about zerging groups were for the players who where talking about wishing they could fill up a zerging group.

Calling the thread ridiculous was a way of poking fun at myself, I have a sense of humor.

I'm not talking about being far ahead of me. I'm usually somewhere in the middle. I don't like leaving people behind, I think its BS, but it sucks waiting when someone is up ahead of you monopolizing on all of the fun. So when the group gets splintered, I feel pulled in two different directions. I call for compromise and maximizing fun for all involved. So you take a room on your own, that's not bad. Leave everyone behind, just cuz you can... not cool.

Tell me, oh great one, what is a zerger to your almighty as@, since I don't have a clue. Apparently I need a lesson.

[xberto]

I've also seen people do some other ignorant ****, like soloing the last three levels of TR while half the group was repairing and freeing up inventory space.

That was me. If you didn't need to level as well and log onto you other toon to mail some **** over, I might have waited. I hate when people need to level in the middle of a quest series unless the party is struggling and the level will really help.
zerg! zerg! zerg!

[Rigby1]

That was me. If you didn't need to level as well and log onto you other toon to mail some **** over, I might have waited. I hate when people need to level in the middle of a quest series unless the party is struggling and the level will really help.
zerg! zerg! zerg!

Again. I wasn't doing anything but waiting. If it had been one or two peeps, I could see saying screw it. If its three or more, its BS to move forward and screw up everyone's endquest reward.

[Bosco]

I was waiting for the other three people to get to the dungeon... I do remember missing a jump once, and falling a little behind, and becoming frustrated, when I first joined. I've also seen people do some other ignorant ****, like soloing the last three levels of TR while half the group was repairing and freeing up inventory space.

Well ya that will be a huge problem in my group. Those TR chests suck. Anyone looting them, then having to zone back to sell and repair during that weak sauce dungeon will be lucky if they aren't booted while out of the explorer area. And I certainly won't wait, they can run the last part themselves to catch up. The xp is better when you kill nothing in there for those.



Screw those people with green steel weapons, I wait for those people who show up in undead heavy quests with holy blunt AND slashing weapons... I get rid of them as soon as I see that white aura around the weapon. Can't risk benefiting from what they bring to the table.

Exactly boot those guys, me included. You want guys with masterwork weapons and ask for you to share the quest.

[Flasharte]

so it looks like we all agree that the best thing to do is state clearly in the lfm exactly what style of play we intend to pursue during the quest. AND its probably best to join groups that are aligned with your personal preferrence of play style. Furthermore we all agree that everyone is entitled to play at their own pace provided it is not in opposition to the style suggested by the dude with the star.

my question though... will zergers choose the casual difficulty setting when they zerg? or will it be beneath their uberness.

[Gunga]

shr plz

[quickgrif]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

So recap: IF YOU WANT TO ZERG, ADVERTISE OR JOIN A GROUP THAT SAYS QUICK RUN OR ZERGING. YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO GET A HIRELING OR DO IT ALL BY YOURSELF. THAT SCENARIO DOESN'T PRESENT MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU'RE DOING ANYWAY, PLUS THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS OF NOT BEING CAPABLE OF ****ING ANYBODY OFF. COMMON COURTESY IS NOT TO ZERG IN GROUPS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY SAY SO.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/Quickgrif/funny_pictures_cat_is_stupid0.jpg

[Stealthdog]

That was me. If you didn't need to level as well and log onto you other toon to mail some **** over, I might have waited. I hate when people need to level in the middle of a quest series unless the party is struggling and the level will really help.
zerg! zerg! zerg!

This is actually a really good point. I find it incredibly rude for people to stop a group in the middle of quest series to spend AP and/or level.

[Linenoise2]

When to we get to hear Rigby's take on spacing out his sentences and Rigbys take on the Enter key?

I am more amused by his claims that he is a writer and yet has not once made use of an indention, paragraph, or proper grammar. :D

As for the OP, I understand your sentiment but I am of the opinion that if you want to take prevent zerging in a group you need to explicitly state such expectations in your LFM. Otherwise you get what you get in a PUG.

Edit: glad to see the OP atleast started using appreciable grammatical form. I will withdraw my amusement, but still feel that one must specify specific paramaters in LFM, if they are to be expected from potential party members.

[Kadran]

I agree with the OP that it is more fun for everyone if you stay together and let everyone enjoy the quest. Unless the lfm says zerg or fast or something I allways stay with the group. If somebody zerges I ask to wait for the group and usually they slow down so the group can just keep up. This way the enjoy the game and also learn how fast the contest can be done.
Btw, I've been playing in Europe for 3 years, and can zerg most quests as well.

I'm assuming we're talking about low-midlevel zerging, and in these circumstances I disagree. Staying with everyone usually means 2 things: The dungeon becomes easy, and you go slower. One of the 2 is bad enough but they usually go hand in hand, making my gaming experience less fun.

All of my characters carry wands/pots/scrolls/etc. I do not expect you to, but I do expect you to keep up with someone, ANYONE. Find one person and run with them, all the time. I love it when running the pit if someone follows my lead. I let them kill things and I'll go do puzzles, or detect secret doors (usually with clickies) or turn the puzzle wheels, etc.


I didnt read this... the enter key is your friend....

I did read it, but it was painful.

Did anyone else notice the OP misspelled his own name in the title of the thread? :-)

[Bosco]

my question though... will zergers choose the casual difficulty setting when they zerg? or will it be beneath their uberness.

Casual will be the ultimate setting to keep zergers out. No real zerger will be caught dead in a casual dungeon.

[Flasharte]

Casual will be the ultimate setting to keep zergers out. No real zerger will be caught dead in a casual dungeon.

really? Most times i feel like the purpose of zerging is to get the quest over as quick as possible. wont it be quickest on casual? i thought one of the reasons they are brining on the casual is so zergers don't have to be hampered by DA.

so shroud speed runs: casual or norm? flagging DQ? fruit loop farming? I think that unless you specifically state it casual is going to be the default.

[epochofcrepuscule]

You know whats really rude?

1. How people cannot keep up with a zerger WHO KILLS EVERYTHING. What are ya doing when we kill the mobs?

2. Walls of texts, ugh.. I hardly finish the first sentence since I assume they dont know what they are talking about.

3. This post... I am sure the topic of non-zerg/zerg lfms has been covered in like, i dont know, 7 million other threads.

4. Gimps wanting my cleric to heal them when I get bb... really... drink a pot or wand whip yourself.

----In the end, it is not my fault you didn't make your character a umd build to self toss heal scrolls. Rectify your decision and we can all group together happily.----

5. Noobs trying to correct actual vets, vet status doesn't make you vet, just means your to lazy to work for anything.

[Bosco]

really? Most times i feel like the purpose of zerging is to get the quest over as quick as possible. wont it be quickest on casual? i thought one of the reasons they are brining on the casual is so zergers don't have to be hampered by DA.

so shroud speed runs: casual or norm? flagging DQ? fruit loop farming? I think that unless you specifically state it casual is going to be the default.

Norm is already so easy why do casual for less xp.

I could be wrong, as I have not read up on casual setting much, but I do not believe casual is a setting for raids. Even if it was it drops the loot tables, why would anyone want to run a raid with less a chance for raid loot?

[Maleth]

Uber Zzerging is okay.. i dont mind going through the quests as fast as possible, but imagine all the bonuses you are missing ;)

Slow play is painful, its like taking twice as long as zzerging for the same xp.. BOO!! ;)
...

My advice is if you dont like zzerging and its not your party.. when the zzerg starts say.. oh sorry guys, not my playstyle.. have fun and then leave..

no need to be rude, manners dont cost anything.

First point above, not true. You get tons of bonus XP for boxes, secret doors, monsters killed, etc. They encourage that style of play, but I understand it might not be preferable for some and there are times I want to run through quickly. In my case, the person didn't care about anything but the end XP and it caused all of us to miss not just bonus items and stuff, but several hundred in XP. That can equate to one whole run in some of the harbor quests.

Second point above, the person who joined our group just flat out said they were going to zerg. No questions. My buddy was group leader and I think since it was a fellow guildie, he didn't want to kick or ask the person to leave. The group was in effect put together for my benefit as I had all the Korthos quests done to hard and I was looking to get Coin favor. So...rock and a hard place, but still the person could have asked if zerging was ok. When my buddy said right before we went in that he thought this person was going to zerg, I thought...****. It turned out too just as I thought it would. I nearly died and that person died once, so no flawless xp. OK, not a huge deal, but still the person could ask when joining.

[transtemporal]

I sometimes just keep up with the person up front, but it makes me feel like sh1t because I know that person wandering around in the middle isn't getting much out of the game. I'm sorry I think of others from time to time.

You keep up with the guys at the front but you hate it. Thats ethics right there.

[Thrudh]

Although I don't agree with the OP totally....

I do agree that if you can run ahead and basically solo the quest... then solo the quest... especially with all the new players today... running ahead and doing the entire quest by yourself isn't helpful or nice or appreciated.

[Lleren]

Why is it that slow play should be the default? Why can zerging not be the default; and it the responsibility of you to post "slow play" if that is what you want?

I've posted groups for both. Though I usually call it "zerg" or "team play"

Default speed for me is the fastest speed that the slowest person in the group can keep up with. Afkers not counting.

I've had mostly really bad zerg groups though, and quick easy team play groups..

[Vuedoo]

The True Meaning of Zerging is Efficiency, and while Some Strive for it harder than others.. there is a Bit of Zerg in all of us.

[Creddi]

Norm is already so easy why do casual for less xp.

I could be wrong, as I have not read up on casual setting much, but I do not believe casual is a setting for raids. Even if it was it drops the loot tables, why would anyone want to run a raid with less a chance for raid loot?

To learn a raid you don't know with less chance of wiping so that vets don't ridicule you for things they think you should magically automatically know?

[Maleth]

What I consider REALLY rude though, is when I start a group and states 'Experienced Only'. I get newbies... So, maybe I am being vague I thought. New group states 'Experienced only. Be self sufficient'. I get newbies... Now I put so much onto my LFMs like 'Experienced Only. Speed Run. Be self sufficient. No babysitting' , basically I put as much as I have space for, and what do I get? You guessed it... newbies...

I wish I could get more of those 'zergers' that you mentioned into my groups .. *sigh* I'd even reward them with mnemonic pots if the xp is good :P

XOXO
Val

But your point is contradictory. Earlier you stated put it into the LFM. OK, fine, but you get zergers anyway and they don't bother to inform you and just do "it" because "it" is the right thing to do. THAT is the issue right there. WHO says it's the right thing to do? I've seen several people in this thread already state that it was the "right way to play" if you're experienced. Who gets to decide that?

OK, if I put it in the LFM, then that's fine, but some people still do it. I just want people to be fracking responsible enough to ask before they do it anyway regardless. That's all I want. I realize it's asking too much, but I have a habit of tilting at windmills...

[Bosco]

To learn a raid you don't know with less chance of wiping so that vets don't ridicule you for things they think you should magically automatically know?

Well unfortunately for you there is no casual setting for raids.

[Bosco]

I just want people to be fracking responsible enough to ask before they do it anyway regardless. That's all I want. I realize it's asking too much, but I have a habit of tilting at windmills...

No one is going to ask you if it is ok to zerg. They will do it or not do it.

[Lleren]

The True Meaning of Zerging is Efficiency, and while Some Strive for it harder than others.. there is a Bit of Zerg in all of us.

Zerging is certainly time efficient in the good ones I've joined or formed, but the bad examples of it are bad, folks dying ragequitting and not finishing. The bad team play groups I've had at least finish.

[weyoun]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

So recap: IF YOU WANT TO ZERG, ADVERTISE OR JOIN A GROUP THAT SAYS QUICK RUN OR ZERGING. YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO GET A HIRELING OR DO IT ALL BY YOURSELF. THAT SCENARIO DOESN'T PRESENT MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU'RE DOING ANYWAY, PLUS THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS OF NOT BEING CAPABLE OF ****ING ANYBODY OFF. COMMON COURTESY IS NOT TO ZERG IN GROUPS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY SAY SO.


whatever gimp

[Lleren]

No one is going to ask you if it is ok to zerg. They will do it or not do it.

Believe it or not, when zerging is not listed in the group add, a few do ask if zerging is ok.

[Bosco]

First point above, not true. You get tons of bonus XP for boxes, secret doors, monsters killed, etc. They encourage that style of play, but I understand it might not be preferable for some and there are times I want to run through quickly. In my case, the person didn't care about anything but the end XP and it caused all of us to miss not just bonus items and stuff, but several hundred in XP. That can equate to one whole run in some of the harbor quests.

If it takes twice as long to do something that will only net you another 10% xp it isnt worth the trouble. Since you could run that quest twice and get much more xp.


Second point above, the person who joined our group just flat out said they were going to zerg. No questions. My buddy was group leader and I think since it was a fellow guildie, he didn't want to kick or ask the person to leave. The group was in effect put together for my benefit as I had all the Korthos quests done to hard and I was looking to get Coin favor. So...rock and a hard place, but still the person could have asked if zerging was ok. When my buddy said right before we went in that he thought this person was going to zerg, I thought...****. It turned out too just as I thought it would. I nearly died and that person died once, so no flawless xp. OK, not a huge deal, but still the person could ask when joining.

Well there is a difference between zergers and knuckleheads. You had a knucklehead in your party. Anyone that takes off ahead of a party and dies in Korthos is a knucklehead. Big difference.

[Vuedoo]

I would say it all boils down to your Decision in Joining a Zerg Group.. Understanding and accepting when you Join that Things can go bad Quick and if your not prepared to keep up, your better of staying dead and waiting for the completion. without Laying Blame on the other People that make it through. or even if you don't make it through.

[Maleth]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/Quickgrif/funny_pictures_cat_is_stupid0.jpg

You know, Rigby isn't that great at debating here, but I feel he has some legitimate points. I've run into some zergers who just assume that's what should be done and don't care. Screwing up XP, quest rewards, etc. is BS. It shouldn't happen. If you want to zerg, run your own group and do it.

My take on the OP is that TOO MANY zergers just do it and don't care. That's the problem that I have. If everybody posted the info in the LFM or zergers asked, then there wouldn't be an issue, but we all know that most zergers don't ask and just assume it's OK.

Not everybody plays like you. If there is no style comment in the LFM, then what is wrong with expecting the person to ask? I know it won't happen very often, but really it is the right thing to do. The game isn't meant to be zerged through, so don't push those of who are grouped with you to do the same unless you're leader and you explained your intention. That's why you get guilds with names like "We do NOT run through dungeons" on Argo. Find a group that fits your play style, but don't assume that every player in a PUG is just like you.

[Kalari]

I see a lot of complaints like this from people who join groups and deal with a supposed zerger.

Hardly ever do their stories start up with "I put up an lfm that clearly states go slow everyone work together as a team."

No instead they join a group which may have another 1 or 2 new players theres nothing wrong with being new. May even be up front "hey were new." But the rest of the party or some of them are not new may have done the quest hundreds of time and want to zerg threw.

Now if the lfm said go slow work together sure that person is a jerk for not following.

But I painfully read the Op's posts (some of them were real walls of text) and no where did you type "This was my group I set the way I wished to run the quests so that I can participate and learn the game."

Instead of attacking "Zergers" you can make your life a lot easier by starting your own groups with your own way. If someone doesnt follow you make note and don't run with them again.

I think the problem lies in people being afraid to take the star, I know there are many days still where im gun shy to lead because of having to deal with different personality types that join the lfm's I put up. But if im wanting to run a certain way I know its better to form my own groups then to complain. I dont come here b****ing about people who join my no optionals fast runs and want to get the extras I should be able to by your original posts but point blank I know who they are and not to accept them into my groups again. Thats about all you can do anything else is spinning wheels.

[Maleth]

If it takes twice as long to do something that will only net you another 10% xp it isnt worth the trouble. Since you could run that quest twice and get much more xp.



Well there is a difference between zergers and knuckleheads. You had a knucklehead in your party. Anyone that takes off ahead of a party and dies in Korthos is a knucklehead. Big difference.
LOL, ok, good to know there is a difference. =)

Actually on the %. It can make a difference. 10% here, 15% there, 8% there and suddenly you have an extra 500XP pts. I wasn't just talking about one bonus really, but all. If you have a zerger pushing the party forward, you likely miss all the bonus XP to be had.

[bobbryan2]

Although I don't agree with the OP totally....

I do agree that if you can run ahead and basically solo the quest... then solo the quest... especially with all the new players today... running ahead and doing the entire quest by yourself isn't helpful or nice or appreciated.

Why not?

I personally think it's not helpful, nice, nor appreciated to sit back and let me solo the quest with no intentions of helping out. If you can't keep up, you're not pulling your weight.

Get better at the game. Don't chide someone for being better.

And if you're new, and you need special considerations to learn.. say so in the LFM. It's not my job to guess who's new to DDO and who isn't. Who would actually appreciate someone doing their best as opposed to people that expect good players to play the game blindfolded with both hands tied behind their back.

Why should I play worse, and handicap myself to play as bad as all the gimpy builds?

[bandyman1]

Oh no, no Kal;

It's all our fault.

We're jerks, elitests, ect.

No one should be responsible for putting up their own LFMs, stating their intentions up front, and/or using good judgement to avoid playstyles they don't care for.

I mean hell; That would require them to show some common sence.

[bobbryan2]

You know, Rigby isn't that great at debating here, but I feel he has some legitimate points. I've run into some zergers who just assume that's what should be done and don't care. Screwing up XP, quest rewards, etc. is BS. It shouldn't happen. If you want to zerg, run your own group and do it.


How do zergers screw up XP, quest rewards, etc?

All zergers are interested in is XP, quest rewards, etc...

[CSFurious]

OP you need to play in a like-minded group of individuals, i.e., people who like to play slow

when you get 6 to 12 random people together you are going to encounter zergers much to your dismay/dislike

that is all

[bandyman1]

I particularly love the " XP!!! " argument.

Newsflash: You can get optional objectives, conquest, ransack, and ingenious dibilitation bonuses in a lot of quests. Nice little XP bonus, right???

But; If a good zerg group can run the quest twice, to three times in the time it takes you to do all of those; Who do you think is going to make next level faster???

[bobbryan2]

And for the record... I particularly love the opinions of so many that zergers should be expected to solo.

Zergers want to go fast. Grouping with people can make the quest go faster. Therefore, grouping gives legitimate bonuses to the grouping philosophy.

People that like to go slow want to go slow. Grouping will make them go faster, so it would be more to their playstyle to solo. Hell, if you group, you may even get a zerger.

So... if you want to go slow. Just jump into a quest, and solo at your own speed. Stay out of the groups and it won't be a problem.

Problem fixed for everyone.

[Kalari]

Oh no, no Kal;

It's all our fault.

We're jerks, elitests, ect.

No one should be responsible for putting up their own LFMs, stating their intentions up front, and/or using good judgement to avoid playstyles they don't care for.

I mean hell; That would require them to show some common sence.

Yep Bandy im starting to think thats just the way it is I will have to accept my title of mean elitist zerger princess and deal with it lol its not going to slow me down specially since I dont get much play time anymore. I just laugh when I see posts like this though cause its always the same ole story.

[Maleth]

How do zergers screw up XP, quest rewards, etc?

All zergers are interested in is XP, quest rewards, etc...

Well, apparently the guy I am speaking about was a knucklehead, not a true zerger? :P

He ran ahead leaving mobs and boxes, and well, everything behind thus losing the group XP. True we could have said something or kicked him, but if you read the context of the situation that I posted, it was awkward because he was a guildie of my buddy who was leader. It certainly wasn't the intent of my friend to run through Misery like that however.

[bobbryan2]

Well, apparently the guy I am speaking about was a knucklehead, not a true zerger? :P

He ran ahead leaving mobs and boxes, and well, everything behind thus losing the group XP. True we could have said something or kicked him, but if you read the context of the situation that I posted, it was awkward because he was a guildie of my buddy who was leader. It certainly wasn't the intent of my friend to run through Misery like that however.

Couldn't you have just kept up with him? Everything he passed will still be aggroed on him. It won't even swing at you unless you hit it first. So, you are free to just follow around behind him if you wanted.

Or... alternatively... you could just mosey behind getting the boxes and kills while he completed the objectives.

And Misery requires a lot of killing. Sure, you can get by with leaving some stuff... but you have to kill zombies to light switches. It's not like you can just run by everything in that quest.

[Maleth]

I particularly love the " XP!!! " argument.

Newsflash: You can get optional objectives, conquest, ransack, and ingenious dibilitation bonuses in a lot of quests. Nice little XP bonus, right???

But; If a good zerg group can run the quest twice, to three times in the time it takes you to do all of those; Who do you think is going to make next level faster???

But you're not going to get a PUG where everybody wants to zerg, yet you have people running ahead assuming it's OK. I admit that I am fond of the play style where you read everything, kill everything, get every bonus and hear every DM comment. Maybe I've played too many JRPGs. That doesn't mean I necessarily go slow either, but I do understand that that would be excruciatingly slow for some. My point is that don't assume that the PUG plays just like you do. I know it's asking a lot, but I just want people expecting to zerg to be considerate and ask. The game clearly encourages slower game play, so if you are playing a different style of play, then make it clear to those you group with. I'm not a min/maxxer. I prefer doing things "just right". That's my style of efficient play, and when a zerger joins and assumes it's OK, that kills it for me.

The thing I find annoying is that too many people defend zergers as a whole, but there are some responsible zergers and there are knuckleheads as was previously explained to me in this thread.

[Maleth]

Couldn't you have just kept up with him? Everything he passed will still be aggroed on him. It won't even swing at you unless you hit it first. So, you are free to just follow around behind him if you wanted.

Or... alternatively... you could just mosey behind getting the boxes and kills while he completed the objectives.

And Misery requires a lot of killing. Sure, you can get by with leaving some stuff... but you have to kill zombies to light switches. It's not like you can just run by everything in that quest.

That's what I tried and nearly got killed, and being that they wouldn't slow down, got killed themselves. I don't plan running Misery again, but lost out on some XP because of the knucklehead. We left too many things behind. Really slowing down would have meant repeated deaths on the zergers part. Being somebody who feels partially responsible to those I group with felt that it was honorable to try and keep up, whether I wanted to or not. That in particular didn't make me happy. I felt like the person was forcing their play style onto me and the whole group too.

[bandyman1]

The game clearly encourages slower game play, so if you are playing a different style of play, then make it clear to those you group with.

And that's the point that you and several others keep trying to make, and quite frankly, you fail to.

The game does NOT " clearly encourage slower game play ".

Respawning waves, time limits, ect, ect.

Where do you get this????



So, that being the case; You deviate from the norm as much as a zerger does. So, why should I be expected to voice my preferrences, if you're not going to bother???

[Cyr]

Hi welcome OP. It's always fun to see new players decide that their way of playing should be the default instead of the established default method of play. If you join an LFM you should not expect to be smashing every barrel, doing every optional, or having someone wait at the entrance of the explorer zone to hold your hand to the quest.

[bobbryan2]

But you're not going to get a PUG where everybody wants to zerg, yet you have people running ahead assuming it's OK. I admit that I am fond of the play style where you read everything, kill everything, get every bonus and hear every DM comment. Maybe I've played too many JRPGs. That doesn't mean I necessarily go slow either, but I do understand that that would be excruciatingly slow for some. My point is that don't assume that the PUG plays just like you do. I know it's asking a lot, but I just want people expecting to zerg to be considerate and ask. The game clearly encourages slower game play, so if you are playing a different style of play, then make it clear to those you group with. I'm not a min/maxxer. I prefer doing things "just right". That's my style of efficient play, and when a zerger joins and assumes it's OK, that kills it for me.

The thing I find annoying is that too many people defend zergers as a whole, but there are some responsible zergers and there are knuckleheads as was previously explained to me in this thread.

So... what's wrong with soloing? It'll make you a better player in the long run.

[Thargnar]

I don't have a problem with zerging if the group is on the same page, what irritates me is the zerger who rushes through and takes on the room full of mobs by himself or hurdles the trap rather than wait the 30 seconds for the group to get caught up to him and then dings. Moral of the story, if you want to zerg, fine, but if you ding because you couldn't wait half a tick for the group to catch up all you are doing is costing the group xp for your bonehead death brought on by stupidity and overconfidence. Sure, you may have evasion and a great save, but running through a trap on elite when you have a rogue that can disable is just taking a 1 in 20 chance of going ding because you are an impatient tool. No matter how good your toon is all it takes is a bad save or some lucky mob hits to turn the Elite Zerger Ubertwink into unwanted inventory space in someone's backpack when the party catches up to the cluster he just caused.

Some of my favorites..
"Pfft, I got these." *DING*
Beholders in VoN 3

"Pfft, I've got evasion." *DING*
Polish Trap Detecting on elite

"Put on your voices." *DING*
Any quest where a true reinc that just got all his gs items back at 12 ran the entire dungeon and tried to take out a red named while running red dungeon alert because he is confusing a gaggle of shroud items with God Mode.

Seriously, if someone can unequivocally handle running ahead on his own, no skin off my back, but you better be absolutely sure that you aren't gonna pull a dinger from lack of support if that's the way you roll.

[Cyr]

But you're not going to get a PUG where everybody wants to zerg, yet you have people running ahead assuming it's OK. I admit that I am fond of the play style where you read everything, kill everything, get every bonus and hear every DM comment. Maybe I've played too many JRPGs. That doesn't mean I necessarily go slow either, but I do understand that that would be excruciatingly slow for some. My point is that don't assume that the PUG plays just like you do. I know it's asking a lot, but I just want people expecting to zerg to be considerate and ask. The game clearly encourages slower game play, so if you are playing a different style of play, then make it clear to those you group with. I'm not a min/maxxer. I prefer doing things "just right". That's my style of efficient play, and when a zerger joins and assumes it's OK, that kills it for me.

The thing I find annoying is that too many people defend zergers as a whole, but there are some responsible zergers and there are knuckleheads as was previously explained to me in this thread.

The game does not encourage slower game play. The opposite is true. There is one single dynamic in game that encourages slower game play and it is Dungeon Alert. It was put in to reduce lag and not to encourage a style of play. On the other hand you have time/xp, time/plat, time/items, respawns, spell durations, unlimited monster sp, and ability durations just to name a few that all encourage FASTER game play. I know it's hard when you join a new game and people are faster then you. It sometimes helps people to think that those fast people are doing it 'wrong', however you don't get much traction in game thinking this way.

[Thargnar]

I particularly love the " XP!!! " argument.

Newsflash: You can get optional objectives, conquest, ransack, and ingenious dibilitation bonuses in a lot of quests. Nice little XP bonus, right???

But; If a good zerg group can run the quest twice, to three times in the time it takes you to do all of those; Who do you think is going to make next level faster???

Sometimes, but with new optional experience and the additional XP required by true reinc zerging something like delera's 2 or tear and forsaking optionals is like chopping something in half so you get shorter strokes but go twice as fast.

[krud]

What's going to happen to all these new players that get leveled up by zergers? They won't learn enough to play the game or their characters properly! They're gonna ruin all our raids! :mad:

[bobbryan2]

Sometimes, but with new optional experience and the additional XP required by true reinc zerging something like delera's 2 or tear and forsaking optionals is like chopping something in half so you get shorter strokes but go twice as fast.

Double Reincarnations are not bottlenecked by deleras at level 6.

[Lleren]

How do zergers screw up XP, quest rewards, etc?

All zergers are interested in is XP, quest rewards, etc...

Many of the supposed self-identified "zergers" aren't as tough, or as good as they think they are, thats how. Wannabe's ruin the perception.

It is sort of like bow only rangers giving all rangers a bad name.
Or folks thinking the only thing a rogue is good for is disabling traps.
Or poorly built multiclassed characters giving well built multiclassed characters a bad name.

If zerging is claimed to be the uber/veteran way to play, all the wannabe ubers will claim to be zergers... and most wannabes aren't as good as the real thiing. Leading to the perception that the wannabe way, is the real thing.

[D'rin]

Double Reincarnations are not bottlenecked by deleras at level 6.

It is the concept he is try to get across not the particular example.

[bobbryan2]

It is the concept he is try to get across not the particular example.

I understand the concept. But he used a particular example where the optionals are worth 50% of the xp of the entire quest. Most zergers will even grab a couple named guys when they're wroth 10k xp. That fits right into xp/min.

There's not a lot of those quests though. His example was a rarity for one, and for two, it's a bad example because zergers won't even play like he suggested.

[Thargnar]

Double Reincarnations are not bottlenecked by deleras at level 6.
True, but the point is that in some quests you can almost double the xp by taking 30% more time. And delera's 2 which was used for example will pay out full xp for 8s on normal and even 10s can get a huge chunk off it when first timing elite with no penalty. Yes, your bottleneck for reincs happens at a higher level, but why squander nearly 50% of the xp available from a quest that gives such massive xp at the levels that are the best to fly through when waiting to equip all your high level goodies again? Even if you just did n/n/n/h/e you are looking at a difference of tens of thousands of xp between doing quest optionals and skipping. I'm not talking breaking every barrel hit every trap, I'm talking kill all names etc, same thing as Wiz King.

[Maleth]

And that's the point that you and several others keep trying to make, and quite frankly, you fail to.

The game does NOT " clearly encourage slower game play ".

Respawning waves, time limits, ect, ect.

Where do you get this????



So, that being the case; You deviate from the norm as much as a zerger does. So, why should I be expected to voice my preferrences, if you're not going to bother???

It's so obvious that that I shouldn't HAVE to show you where. Where do you think the bonus XP comes from for getting every box or killing every mob? The bonus XP for every optional. Do you think they payed for voice actors to have everybody "zerg through the dungeons constantly". That is so opposite what what their obvious intent was, which is to honor the p&p version of the game in an online version as much as possible and if you can't see that, then you're blind.

Yes I know that every MMORPG gets a lot of people who play this way. That doesn't make it right and that doesn't invalidate any other way of playing, but what I take issue with is when suddenly MY method of play gets viewed as invalid because a group of people like to zerg and they can't be arsed to bother seeing if that is OK when joining a PUG, if not stated in the LFM post. Assuming you are joining a group that plays like you do if there are no guidelines posted is just wrong and you can't defend that, no matter how badly you may want to. That goes for people who want to zerg OR for people who want to go very slowly.

Now you're argument is that if everybody does it that you should expect every group to be a zerg group? Bollocks. In my experience, the norm is a reasonable pace, not running forward as quickly as possibe. What you are suggesting is just an excuse to allow people to act badly which was one of my original gripes in this thread. We shouldn't be giving excuses to people to act badly. Notice I said "act badly", not zerg. My gripe isn't with zergers as a whole, but those who expect to take over a group with their zerging just because, which would be considered bad form by most reasonable people.

Now, my definition of a zerger may be different as previously explained by somebody else. It seems that many zergers still get all the boxes and mobs and still run though quickly. That wasn't the case of the guy I was in a group with yesterday. Still I think it's reasonable to ask what the intended play style is when joining any PUG, no matter what YOUR play style is.

I have to be clear here. What I don't like is having somebody force that style of play on me when they're not in a position to. All I expect is for people to be clear about their expectations which happens way too infrequently. If you're not the group leader, don't expect to be joining a zerg group unless it states so.

[Rigby1]

OP you need to play in a like-minded group of individuals, i.e., people who like to play slow

when you get 6 to 12 random people together you are going to encounter zergers much to your dismay/dislike

that is all

I'm personally good at any rate of play. My style is to play WITH the group. If everybody is zerging, rock on. If a couple of people can't, but aren't just afk and are trying, then thats when it starts to become bothersome.

[Maleth]

The game does not encourage slower game play. The opposite is true. There is one single dynamic in game that encourages slower game play and it is Dungeon Alert. It was put in to reduce lag and not to encourage a style of play. On the other hand you have time/xp, time/plat, time/items, respawns, spell durations, unlimited monster sp, and ability durations just to name a few that all encourage FASTER game play. I know it's hard when you join a new game and people are faster then you. It sometimes helps people to think that those fast people are doing it 'wrong', however you don't get much traction in game thinking this way.

That isn't my point at all. I say I go "slowly", but actually I keep pace with most people. I have rarely had respawns and usually only when I died and I am trying to catch back up to the group I was with which is way ahead in a long dungeon.

Actually, I think what you are saying is that the game encourages balanced speed of play, not faster speed of play. When I say I prefer to play "slowly" that is in contrast to zergers only. I prefer a more methodical, "gotta get it all" sort of approach instead of a run around like a maniac approach. Neither form of play is invalid, but personally, I feel this game favors a slower pace over a faster "zerger" pace. That is what I mean by it favors a slower pace.

Also, I have never had a green alert except when with somebody zerging or when solo and trying to get every single mob. The latter is moot because the alert is going to go quickly after anyway because my intent was to go get every single mob, so I don't understand this particular point? At those particular times, I don't care if it went green unless I'm trying to do fricking Stealthy Repossession.

[Maleth]

The game does not encourage slower game play. The opposite is true. There is one single dynamic in game that encourages slower game play and it is Dungeon Alert. It was put in to reduce lag and not to encourage a style of play. On the other hand you have time/xp, time/plat, time/items, respawns, spell durations, unlimited monster sp, and ability durations just to name a few that all encourage FASTER game play. I know it's hard when you join a new game and people are faster then you. It sometimes helps people to think that those fast people are doing it 'wrong', however you don't get much traction in game thinking this way.

To further illustrate my point, please read my post to Cyr just above this. When I say I prefer "slower", that is in contrast to the typical zerger "rush ahead" method. When I am by myself I tend to go much slower, but when with a group, prefer a balanced pace, but that still excludes zerging ahead and speeding through.

Also, one further point. Do you think they put rogues into this game just for giggles? That is a "slow them down" method if I have EVER seen one. Disable the trap (which on elite until update 3, typically insta-kills), search for secret doors, unlock locked doors and THEN open the door with another animation. And you don't supposed that's to slow people down? Or for the traps for that matter? How many other MMO do you know of that bother to put in dungeon traps? Not many.

[Maleth]

To further illustrate my point, please read my post to Cyr just above this. When I say I prefer "slower", that is in contrast to the typical zerger "rush ahead" method. When I am by myself I tend to go much slower, but when with a group, prefer a balanced pace, but that still excludes zerging ahead and speeding through.

Also, one further point. Do you think they put rogues into this game just for giggles? That is a "slow them down" method if I have EVER seen one. Disable the trap (which on elite until update 3, typically insta-kills), search for secret doors, unlock locked doors and THEN open the door with another animation. And you don't supposed that's to slow people down? Or for the traps for that matter? How many other MMO do you know of that bother to put in dungeon traps? Not many.

Bah, that was supposed to be to a different poster. Not sure why both went to you. Guess I failed at that post.

[Rigby1]

Hi welcome OP. It's always fun to see new players decide that their way of playing should be the default instead of the established default method of play. If you join an LFM you should not expect to be smashing every barrel, doing every optional, or having someone wait at the entrance of the explorer zone to hold your hand to the quest.

I realize there were 134 posts preceding yours, so I automatically assume that you didn't read it all. My way of playing is to play WITH the group. If the whole group is zerging, rock on.

I begin to become upset when there are some slower players who are putting effort forth, and no one slows down to let them catch up. These slower players are rarely me, but it did happen during my first couple weeks of play, and rarely since. So the frustration is still fairly fresh in my head.

I don't smash every barrel, or do every optional every time. And I definitely don't want my hand held. I don't even really like being on the same side of room as other players. I get claustrophobic, but I'll do what is needed to be done for the group as a whole.

I solo alot so I don't have to deal with bs from other players. I've actually gotten quite good soloing, and I can decide if I want to zerg or not then.

If I group, I play WITH the group. I'm flexible in my playstyle for the good of the WHOLE group, zerg or slowgrind. I just hope some of you vets with your holier than thou attitude would respect that there are other people playing, some of whom aren't at your pace yet. Again, I didn't include myself in that statement.

[bobbryan2]

I'm personally good at any rate of play. My style is to play WITH the group. If everybody is zerging, rock on. If a couple of people can't, but aren't just afk and are trying, then thats when it starts to become bothersome.

That's nice and all... but you're just saying that group speed should be set to the lowest common denominator. And that the worst player in the group decides how the other 5 people will run.

No thanks.

[Rigby1]

You keep up with the guys at the front but you hate it. Thats ethics right there.

No, I feel like as much of a pr1ck as the person in front of me. This causes some dissonant cognitions, which puts me at odds with myself. That's my whole issue. To hang back or rush forward. Its really a no brainer I think. The emotion that arises is a feeling that the guy rushing ahead is more in the wrong, hence this whole thread.

[Delt]

Blah, blah, blah slowbie

You like slow runs, most people don't. You are dealing with players that have done some content into the 4-digits.

The LFM provides an area to specify the type of run desired - use it or don't complain.

[Rigby1]

That's nice and all... but you're just saying that group speed should be set to the lowest common denominator. And that the worst player in the group decides how the other 5 people will run.

No thanks.

Its coop, not competitive. Compromise. If you don't compromise, then you're being selfish. If you're selfish then you're acting unethically. Therefore, if you don't compromise, then you're acting unethically.

[bobbryan2]

Its coop, not competitive. Compromise. If you don't compromise, then you're being selfish. If you're selfish then you're acting unethically. Therefore, if you don't compromise, then you're acting unethically.

Yeah, it's cooperative... so help. If you can't help, then it's unethical for you to pike. Therefore, if you can't help, you shouldn't be in the group, and if you remain in the group, you're acting unethically.

So all the slow players that don't keep up are acting just as unethically.

Those kinds of arguments are silly.

[Rigby1]

You know, Rigby isn't that great at debating here, but I feel he has some legitimate points. I've run into some zergers who just assume that's what should be done and don't care. Screwing up XP, quest rewards, etc. is BS. It shouldn't happen. If you want to zerg, run your own group and do it.

My take on the OP is that TOO MANY zergers just do it and don't care. That's the problem that I have. If everybody posted the info in the LFM or zergers asked, then there wouldn't be an issue, but we all know that most zergers don't ask and just assume it's OK.

Not everybody plays like you. If there is no style comment in the LFM, then what is wrong with expecting the person to ask? I know it won't happen very often, but really it is the right thing to do. The game isn't meant to be zerged through, so don't push those of who are grouped with you to do the same unless you're leader and you explained your intention. That's why you get guilds with names like "We do NOT run through dungeons" on Argo. Find a group that fits your play style, but don't assume that every player in a PUG is just like you.

Yeah, I'm not trying to debate here. I'm not going to bust all of this down to logical syllogisms. I'm being a bit righteous here, which I don't particularly like doing, but the right answer just seems blatently obvious to me. I'd say that maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure that I'm not.

[Kriogen]

My take on it is this, and I am a little full of myself, but I just call them as I see them, and I usually see them the way they really are because I'm a bottom line type of guy. If you're going to get ahead of everybody by yourself, and hog all the killing fun for yourself, then you might as well be doing the quest by yourself anyway. Zergers shouldn't be zerging at all unless the LFM specifically says zerging, quick run, or people who don't have real lives of their own. I can zerg, but I don't unless I joined a group that advertised as such, or if I were to advertise as such on my own, which I have never done. Its rude as hell to join a group and then leave everyone behind while you clear out the adventure. What's the point of playing in a group with someone like that. Its more of a competition to see who can get to what before the other person. Last time I checked, the whole point of the group is to cooperate to achieve goals. I used to set up groups of my own regularly, and I tend to kick players like that out as soon as they recall without any notice. I shouldn't have to tell someone to wait for the group, its just common courtesy. One rude turn deserves another.

So recap: IF YOU WANT TO ZERG, ADVERTISE OR JOIN A GROUP THAT SAYS QUICK RUN OR ZERGING. YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO GET A HIRELING OR DO IT ALL BY YOURSELF. THAT SCENARIO DOESN'T PRESENT MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU'RE DOING ANYWAY, PLUS THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS OF NOT BEING CAPABLE OF ****ING ANYBODY OFF. COMMON COURTESY IS NOT TO ZERG IN GROUPS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY SAY SO.
Soon you will join the da...zerg side. How did that little green dude said ... well just wait a month or two :)

[Rigby1]

Yeah, it's cooperative... so help. If you can't help, then it's unethical for you to pike. Therefore, if you can't help, you shouldn't be in the group, and if you remain in the group, you're acting unethically.

So all the slow players that don't keep up are acting just as unethically.

Those kinds of arguments are silly.

Who said that they can't help. If you're not putting them in a position to make a contribution, then you're eliminating their ability to do so. All you have to do is stay WITH the group, and everyone can get a chance to make their contribution. Wether they do or don't make a contibution is situationally dependent, but impossible to determine if the chance isn't given.

Your argument works well in an exclusive group, like an LFM that's asking for no nonsense players that fly straight as a bullet to the target, but not when your joining an LFM that's drawing from the general population. In that situation you have to expect to compromise if you're going to play. That or just admit that you don't really care wether you play well with others or not.

[Kadran]

Who said that they can't help. If you're not putting them in a position to make a contribution, then you're eliminating their ability to do so. All you have to do is stay WITH the group, and everyone can get a chance to make their contribution. Wether they do or don't make a contibution is situationally dependent, but impossible to determine if the chance isn't given.

Your argument works well in an exclusive group, like an LFM that's asking for no nonsense players that fly straight as a bullet to the target, but not when your joining an LFM that's drawing from the general population. In that situation you have to expect to compromise if you're going to play. That or just admit that you don't really care wether you play well with others or not.

I recently leveled up a WF Battle Wizard (in my sig). I buffed myself, and the last buff I threw at the beginning of every dungeon was Haste. Green means Go. Now, being that we were at the beginning of the dungeon, and everyone got hasted along with me, that means everyone is moving the same speed as I am (or faster for monks/barbs.) To me, this means that I set the standard for how fast the group goes. If they can go faster than me, I will be delightfully surprised. More ofthen than not though, I was the "evil" zerger.

I will use Gwylans Stand as an example because I remember this group specifically and well. We were level appropriate on normal. I threw haste, and ran for the named guy at the beginning. We cleared out that area, then I went for the cave. No one else came in the cave with me. I cleared the cave alone, collected all the supply crates, and came back out expecting the rest of the group had went ahead clearing a path. They were still at the chest that spawns the minotaurs... In the time it took me to clear the trolls, rust monsters (on a WF melee), and the 1 spider prince, they had killed 1 hobgoblin slayer, and were still fighting the minotaurs that pop out of that chest.

Now, I'm not expecting everyone to be as geared out as I am, but seriously? 3-5 monsters? I practically soloed the dungeon (easy with a melee with evasion, self buffs and heals) and received several nasty messages in party chat, and tells. I ignored them all, finished the quest and dropped group. And instances like this are exactly why I solo so frequently.

The quest we were in had 2 ways to go. I went one way to get the required items to finish the rest of the dungeon. Everyone else went down a straight path and STOPPED. I soloed TR on Elite with my new toon Houndaer, and have been soloing quite a bit for fear of grouping with stupid people. Sorry if that offends ye flower sniffers, but it's true. Buffs are tickin, mobs are waiting to be killed, and I have other real life **** to accomplish before, during, and after my game time. Lets make this quick.

[Ganak]

I zerged my pants:p

[Lleren]

I zerged my pants:p

I zerged your pants too...roomy :p

[Rigby1]

I recently leveled up a WF Battle Wizard (in my sig). I buffed myself, and the last buff I threw at the beginning of every dungeon was Haste. Green means Go. Now, being that we were at the beginning of the dungeon, and everyone got hasted along with me, that means everyone is moving the same speed as I am (or faster for monks/barbs.) To me, this means that I set the standard for how fast the group goes. If they can go faster than me, I will be delightfully surprised. More ofthen than not though, I was the "evil" zerger.

I will use Gwylans Stand as an example because I remember this group specifically and well. We were level appropriate on normal. I threw haste, and ran for the named guy at the beginning. We cleared out that area, then I went for the cave. No one else came in the cave with me. I cleared the cave alone, collected all the supply crates, and came back out expecting the rest of the group had went ahead clearing a path. They were still at the chest that spawns the minotaurs... In the time it took me to clear the trolls, rust monsters (on a WF melee), and the 1 spider prince, they had killed 1 hobgoblin slayer, and were still fighting the minotaurs that pop out of that chest.

Now, I'm not expecting everyone to be as geared out as I am, but seriously? 3-5 monsters? I practically soloed the dungeon (easy with a melee with evasion, self buffs and heals) and received several nasty messages in party chat, and tells. I ignored them all, finished the quest and dropped group. And instances like this are exactly why I solo so frequently.

The quest we were in had 2 ways to go. I went one way to get the required items to finish the rest of the dungeon. Everyone else went down a straight path and STOPPED. I soloed TR on Elite with my new toon Houndaer, and have been soloing quite a bit for fear of grouping with stupid people. Sorry if that offends ye flower sniffers, but it's true. Buffs are tickin, mobs are waiting to be killed, and I have other real life **** to accomplish before, during, and after my game time. Lets make this quick.

Thats good tactical working in Gwylans there. The cave with the supply crates is pretty simple, seeing as there aren't any red named monsters there. Definitely doable for two decent players, or one really good player. Those mobs leading to the ruins are more difficult, but shouldn't present much of a problem to any group of four. It sucks that it didn't work out the way it should have for you. I think that's a great tactic, especially if you sent the rogue with the group of four, cuz disabling the first few traps would naturally slow even a decent group down enough for the other one or two to catch up from the supply crate cave. That's a great example of getting two things done at once, and maximizing everyone's chance to contribute. The rest of the level is probably best done with a full group moving together though. I've sen plenty of good players wander off and get laid out, especially in the caves. There's nothing offensive about what you just said at all.

[bobbryan2]

Who said that they can't help. If you're not putting them in a position to make a contribution, then you're eliminating their ability to do so. All you have to do is stay WITH the group, and everyone can get a chance to make their contribution. Wether they do or don't make a contibution is situationally dependent, but impossible to determine if the chance isn't given.

Your argument works well in an exclusive group, like an LFM that's asking for no nonsense players that fly straight as a bullet to the target, but not when your joining an LFM that's drawing from the general population. In that situation you have to expect to compromise if you're going to play. That or just admit that you don't really care wether you play well with others or not.

My argument is fine. I am no more responsible for putting group members in positions to help than they are responsible for helping me help.

If I have to help you help me.. you're really not helping at all.

[Bosco]

No, I feel like as much of a pr1ck as the person in front of me. This causes some dissonant cognitions, which puts me at odds with myself. That's my whole issue. To hang back or rush forward. Its really a no brainer I think. The emotion that arises is a feeling that the guy rushing ahead is more in the wrong, hence this whole thread.

That right there is a sign that perhaps you take the game more seriously then most. Remember it is a game. If most are running it a certain way perhaps everything you perceive may not be the true feelings of others. It may just all be within your head. Lighten up.

[jozzcooper]

One or two points I will offer:

"Zerging" is a jargon intended to mean overwhelming a superior foe with sheer numbers. It's used here to indicate blowing through a quest at maximum velocity, often with one or a couple of characters that can overpower everything in their path. It's interesting to see how meanings evolve.
To the original poster, yes, this is how a decent percentage of the players enjoy their gaming. Many of the topics in these forums result in people saying something about how easily they can solo such-and-such dungeon, and are relegated to that because some party leader didn't accept them. More often than not, they can.
I've occasionally asked myself why a particular player joined a group when it's obvious they neither need, nor interact with, the rest of us. It's a bit disillusioning to enter a raid group run by 2 or 3 members of a guild who need the other players just to activate levers or runes, etc.
Someone made the claim that 99% of experienced players quest in this manner. This is an obvious exaggeration. Even at high levels, it's probably in the realm of 50%. I've been in plenty of moderately paced groups, so they're out there. I think you'll find it a good idea to take the advice of some folks here, and state "no zerging" in your group advertisement. A lot of people are intimidated by the playstyle of many group leaders, and you'll find there are a lot of people who, like you, appreciate taking things at a more relaxed pace. Oddly enough, some people see this game as a pasttime.
Above all, enjoy the game your way. Find like-minded regular players and quest with them. You'd be surprised at what's out there.

[Mhykke]

There is always a middle. If someone is moving 5 feet every five minutes, then they're either not paying attention, and don't give a **** what you do, or they're having major technical issues, and should be understanding of people moving ahead of them. Do I really need to adjectify every noun I use (and yes, I realize adjectify isn't a real word, but it should be). I'll restate... slowest legitimate player... now I have to define legitimate. Use your brain ds (by the way, that's an acronym, for dip sh1t). Be reasonable. I suppose my perspective on this is just a little diluted by realism. There's no room for reason in fantasy.

So what your saying is the default speed should not be the slowest person in group. See, that's the problem when you take an extreme position, one can easily point out a case where that extreme position breaks down. Now you have to clarify what you meant, and what you meant is that the default position is not the slowest person in group. You try to qualify it as "the slowest reasonable speed."

[krud]

All the OP had to say was "if you're going to zerg a quest, and put up an lfm for it, then at least say so in the lfm". It doesn't take much to type the 4 letters Z-E-R-G in the lfm. With all the new players joining up don't you think it would be a good idea to at least let people know it's a zerg up front before they join?

I find it interesting that many of the people posting against the OP are also the same people adamantly opposed to casual play. What do you think a newb is learning from a quest where he is zerged thru by a vet? Probably much less than if he jumped in on casual play by himself. In addition to that you are helping an inexperienced player get to higher levels much faster than they would otherwise. You are making the situation where "inexperienced newbs will ruin our raids" even worse, since they will reach raid capability a lot sooner than if they ran casual by themselves. What do they learn by running at breakneck speed, or more likely standing around somewhere near the beginning of the quest when the "ding" of completion sounds? At least on casual play they get to figure out game mechanics, even if the mobs die rather quickly.

Nothing wrong with zerging, nothing wrong with zerging others thru quests. Just a little courtesy to say so in the lfm. It's the same courtesy zergers expect when someone wants to put up a flower sniffing lfm. This way everyone can see what's up and choose to join or not join.

[Rigby1]

My argument is fine. I am no more responsible for putting group members in positions to help than they are responsible for helping me help.

If I have to help you help me.. you're really not helping at all.

The only concession you need to make is to slow down!!! In most cases, just a little.

[Visty]

All the OP had to say was "if you're going to zerg a quest, and put up an lfm for it, then at least say so in the lfm". It doesn't take much to type the 4 letters Z-E-R-G in the lfm. With all the new players joining up don't you think it would be a good idea to at least let people know it's a zerg up front before they join?

I find it interesting that many of the people posting against the OP are also the same people adamantly opposed to casual play. What do you think a newb is learning from a quest where he is zerged thru by a vet? Probably much less than if he jumped in on casual play by himself. In addition to that you are helping an inexperienced player get to higher levels much faster than they would otherwise. You are making the situation where "inexperienced newbs will ruin our raids" even worse, since they will reach raid capability a lot sooner than if they ran casual by themselves. What do they learn by running at breakneck speed, or more likely standing around somewhere near the beginning of the quest when the "ding" of completion sounds? At least on casual play they get to figure out game mechanics, even if the mobs die rather quickly.

Nothing wrong with zerging, nothing wrong with zerging others thru quests. Just a little courtesy to say so in the lfm. It's the same courtesy zergers expect when someone wants to put up a flower sniffing lfm. This way everyone can see what's up and choose to join or not join.

if they can choose to join or not to join, why do ppl who dont like zergers still join zerg lfms?

[krud]

if they can choose to join or not to join, why do ppl who dont like zergers still join zerg lfms?
at least they know what they're getting into. In that case they only have themselves to blame if it upsets them.

[Enochroot]

I find it interesting that many of the people posting against the OP are also the same people adamantly opposed to casual play. What do you think a newb is learning from a quest where he is zerged thru by a vet? Probably much less than if he jumped in on casual play by himself. In addition to that you are helping an inexperienced player get to higher levels much faster than they would otherwise. You are making the situation where "inexperienced newbs will ruin our raids" even worse, since they will reach raid capability a lot sooner than if they ran casual by themselves. What do they learn by running at breakneck speed, or more likely standing around somewhere near the beginning of the quest when the "ding" of completion sounds? At least on casual play they get to figure out game mechanics, even if the mobs die rather quickly.


I beg to differ on this point. If they're going to learn, then throwing them in the fire is the fastest way. If they're gonna be noobs forever, then they will be. Honestly, I don't want the second type, so if I offend them, and they squelch me, great. I for one still think we should have seperate servers ala "powergamer" and "casual" ala Diablo's "hardcore" and "normal". This would solve so many issues the population has.


I've had RL friends master this game in maybe 2 months, and yeah, they were thrown right into our zerging guild of 3 year vets. I've brought up new F2P crowd (or they started with the F2P crowd) with zerg-style, and they learn just fine. Then there are those that simpy will never play like that. I'd rather find that out in the first quest than drag it on for quests or days or weeks.

[Matuse]

or people who don't have real lives of their own.

For the record, this is the part where you gave up any pretense that this was in any way a reasoned arguement, and that you weren't just bashing people who don't play how you want them to.

Congrats, you're a troll. Now go away.

[Mhykke]

ly
You're giving me the old "eye of the beholder" argument, which is a ridiculous catchall.

I still think you are, and my position isn't extreme, I'm just saying there are alot of impatient people playing this game, and that is only good for the impatient person... and its probably not even consistantly a good thing.

All you have to do is slow down and wait, in most cases, just a little, and only in groups that ask for "flowersniffers" or in LFMs that are drawing from the general player population.

In every other instance, knock yourself out zerging... please, have at it. I can even hope that a dipsh1t like you can have some fun, but in instances where your version of fun is appropriate.

No, your position now is a bit moderated from the extreme position that you took earlier, which was simply "the default speed is the slowest player in the group." I pointed out how ridiculous that position was, and you backtracked. Now you're trying to use the standard of "the reasonable player." The only problem is, that's not an objective standard, and what is "reasonable" speed varies from person to person.

[krud]

I beg to differ on this point. If they're going to learn, then throwing them in the fire is the fastest way. only if you let them do something. Quite a few times I see people just getting left in the dust If they're gonna be noobs forever, then they will be. Honestly, I don't want the second type, so if I offend them, and they squelch me, great. I for one still think we should have seperate servers ala "powergamer" and "casual" ala Diablo's "hardcore" and "normal". This would solve so many issues the population has.


I've had RL friends master this game in maybe 2 months, and yeah, they were thrown right into our zerging guild of 3 year vets. I've brought up new F2P crowd (or they started with the F2P crowd) with zerg-style, and they learn just fine. Then there are those that simpy will never play like that. I'd rather find that out in the first quest than drag it on for quests or days or weeks.
You are talking about people who willingly signed up with your zerging guild and knew what to expect. Some people like being thrown into the fire, others don't. All the op is asking is that you put in your lfm 'zerg', just like you expect flower sniffers to do the same with their lfms. In addition, if you join an lfm don't hijack it with your own playstyle.

[Rigby1]

For the record, this is the part where you gave up any pretense that this was in any way a reasoned arguement, and that you weren't just bashing people who don't play how you want them to.

Congrats, you're a troll. Now go away.

You're right, I started this off trolling people, primarilly cuz I want as$holes to feel like as$holes. I won't go away though, but I will make a concentrated effort on being less insulting. Spite is an ugly emotion, one that I would be wise to squelch. Creating a negative emotional response isn't the best way to force a valid argument.

[Mhykke]

You're right, I started this off trolling people, primarilly cuz I want as$holes to feel like as$holes.

Mighty bold stance sitting behind your keyboard.

[Rigby1]

No, your position now is a bit moderated from the extreme position that you took earlier, which was simply "the default speed is the slowest player in the group." I pointed out how ridiculous that position was, and you backtracked. Now you're trying to use the standard of "the reasonable player." The only problem is, that's not an objective standard, and what is "reasonable" speed varies from person to person.

As an aside, isn't the anonymity of the internet a great thing? I mean, if we were having this conversation in real life, and you decided to pull that "dip sh1t" crack, you'd be on your a$$ faster than you could cry "please stop." But, fortunately, you can post to your little heart's desire, knowing you can be a complete dbag and not have to worry about any consequences.

Yeah, that's the great thing about anonymity I suppose. I call them as I see them, and am perfectly capable of defending myself if you were face to face with me. Though I'm not a big fan of picking up charges, so I would definitely be more than happy to watch your feeble attempts at having your way with me, just so you can understand the true meaning of the word consequence.

But alas, thats the great thing about anonymity, it doesn't have to go there. The only thing I'm distinguishing between "reasonable" and "slowest" is technical issues, and people who are putting forth effort. Both things that occur, and are fairly obvious to a reasonable person. I think the reasonable player should be the one who recognizes that someone is trying and not just messing around or suffering technical problems. A reasonable person is one that would recognize the population that the LFM is drawing from, and realize that a good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics. So just try being a little more reasonable, and you might just become a little bit less of dipsh1t than what you currently are.

[Kiranselie]

As an aside, isn't the anonymity of the internet a great thing? I mean, if we were having this conversation in real life, and you decided to pull that "dip sh1t" crack, you'd be on your a$$ faster than you could cry "please stop." But, fortunately, you can post to your little heart's desire, knowing you can be a complete dbag and not have to worry about any consequences.

And this is why I love being a PWNY. :D

[Rameses]

ly
You're giving me the old "eye of the beholder" argument, which is a ridiculous catchall.

I still think you are, and my position isn't extreme, I'm just saying there are alot of impatient people playing this game, and that is only good for the impatient person... and its probably not even consistantly a good thing.

All you have to do is slow down and wait, in most cases, just a little, and only in groups that ask for "flowersniffers" or in LFMs that are drawing from the general player population.

In every other instance, knock yourself out zerging... please, have at it. I can even hope that a dipsh1t like you can have some fun, but in instances where your version of fun is appropriate.

Isn't alot actually two words? IE: A LOT.

I am, Rameses!

[Rameses]

You're right, I started this off trolling people, primarilly cuz I want as$holes to feel like as$holes. I won't go away though, but I will make a concentrated effort on being less insulting. Spite is an ugly emotion, one that I would be wise to squelch. Creating a negative emotional response isn't the best way to force a valid argument.

How does that make you feel?

I am, Rameses!

[kaelis]

Yeah, that's the great thing about anonymity I suppose. I call them as I see them, and am perfectly capable of defending myself if you were face to face with me. Though I'm not a big fan of picking up charges, so I would definitely be more than happy to watch your feeble attempts at having your way with me, just so you can understand the true meaning of the word consequence.

But alas, thats the great thing about anonymity, it doesn't have to go there. The only thing I'm distinguishing between "reasonable" and "slowest" is technical issues, and people who are putting forth effort. Both things that occur, and are fairly obvious to a reasonable person. I think the reasonable player should be the one who recognizes that someone is trying and not just messing around or suffering technical problems. A reasonable person is one that would recognize the population that the LFM is drawing from, and realize that a good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics. So just try being a little more reasonable, and you might just become a little bit less of dipsh1t than what you currently are.

My 'reasonable' speed is probably not anything near yours. I'm usually a 'reasonable' players, but my speed probably dwarfs yours like a dragon over a halfling. Just sayin' your argument doesn't hold much sway.

[Mhykke]

Yeah, that's the great thing about anonymity I suppose. I call them as I see them, and am perfectly capable of defending myself if you were face to face with me. Though I'm not a big fan of picking up charges, so I would definitely be more than happy to watch your feeble attempts at having your way with me, just so you can understand the true meaning of the word consequence. .

Yep, sure you are. That's why you take the time to act as the instigator on an internet message board. I'm sure it's not b/c you spend all day every day saying "yes sir", "sorry sir" in real life, only so you can live out your fantasy of regulator on the forums. I'm positive that's not it.


But alas, thats the great thing about anonymity, it doesn't have to go there. The only thing I'm distinguishing between "reasonable" and "slowest" is technical issues, and people who are putting forth effort. Both things that occur, and are fairly obvious to a reasonable person. I think the reasonable player should be the one who recognizes that someone is trying and not just messing around or suffering technical problems. A reasonable person is one that would recognize the population that the LFM is drawing from, and realize that a good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics. So just try being a little more reasonable, and you might just become a little bit less of dipsh1t than what you currently are.

A "good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics."
Hmm, curious. Can I please see your population statistics that you drew that figure from? I mean, I'm sure you didn't just pull that figure out of your loose, lubricated a$$. I'm sure you did plenty of studies, polling (well, I'm certain you do a certain kind of polling, but that's a different subject), and analysis on the DDO population, and how the population feels about zerging.

And even if that 50% number is correct, that means that 50% of the population does enjoy
"zerg tactics". So you feel that one 50% group should be catered to at the expense of the other. Hmm, pretty arbitrary. If you're going to make up percentages, at least make up a number that supports your side.

[Rameses]

And this is why I love being a PWNY. :D

Mommy I want a PWNY!

I am, Rameses!

[Rameses]

Yep, sure you are. That's why you take the time to act as the instigator on an internet message board. I'm sure it's not b/c you spend all day every day saying "yes sir", "sorry sir" in real life, only so you can live out your fantasy of regulator on the forums. I'm positive that's not it.



A "good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics."
Hmm, curious. Can I please see your population statistics that you drew that figure from? I mean, I'm sure you didn't just pull that figure out of your loose, lubricated a$$. I'm sure you did plenty of studies, polling (well, I'm certain you do a certain kind of polling, but that's a different subject), and analysis on the DDO population, and how the population feels about zerging.

And even if that 50% number is correct, that means that 50% of the population does enjoy
"zerg tactics". So you feel that one 50% group should be catered to at the expense of the other. Hmm, pretty arbitrary. If you're going to make up percentages, at least make up a number that supports your side.

No one likes a nagger!

[Rigby1]

Mighty bold stance sitting behind your keyboard.

The first thing I did was openly admit that I'm full of myself. Why would you expect anything less. Commenting on this thread and not expecting to get a little bashing from an uberconfident arrogant pr1ck like me, isn't much different from a flowersniffer joining a zerg group. I take as well as I dish. i know I'm an as$hole. I'm good with that, keyboard or no keyboard. Other people don't, and need to realize it and either change, or be good with it.

[Rameses]

The first thing I did was openly admit that I'm full of myself. Why would you expect anything less. Commenting on this thread and not expecting to get a little bashing from an uberconfident arrogant pr1ck like me, isn't much different from a flowersniffer joining a zerg group. I take as well as I dish. i know I'm an as$hole. I'm good with that, keyboard or no keyboard. Other people don't, and need to realize it and either change, or be good with it.

So basically after reading this thread I've gathered that you don't like zergs and don't know that a lot is two words.

That being said, since you are a uberconfident arrogant chum list your server and character name and next time any of us zergs are on korthos island again we wont join your misery peak lfm's.
mk?


I am, Rameses!

[Fenrisulven6]

All the op is asking is that you put in your lfm 'zerg', just like you expect flower sniffers to do the same with their lfms. In addition, if you join an lfm don't hijack it with your own playstyle.

/signed

[Rigby1]

Yep, sure you are. That's why you take the time to act as the instigator on an internet message board. I'm sure it's not b/c you spend all day every day saying "yes sir", "sorry sir" in real life, only so you can live out your fantasy of regulator on the forums. I'm positive that's not it.



A "good half of the general population aren't going to appreciate zerg tactics."
Hmm, curious. Can I please see your population statistics that you drew that figure from? I mean, I'm sure you didn't just pull that figure out of your loose, lubricated a$$. I'm sure you did plenty of studies, polling (well, I'm certain you do a certain kind of polling, but that's a different subject), and analysis on the DDO population, and how the population feels about zerging.

And even if that 50% number is correct, that means that 50% of the population does enjoy
"zerg tactics". So you feel that one 50% group should be catered to at the expense of the other. Hmm, pretty arbitrary. If you're going to make up percentages, at least make up a number that supports your side.

Just personal observation good sir. Even if its 75% in the favor of zergs, it doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to draw from the slow population when you're drawing from the general population. I'm advocating working together WITH your group... the only way that can be a bad thing, is that it forces you to compromise. God forbid you compromise a little to help out newer players. I suppose its selfish of me to think that the idea of joining a group is to play WITH the group. I should probably be a little more considerate to those who have no consideration for those who need help. I thinks its kind of juvenile, really on both of our accounts to be arguing in such a manner. I used the word need in relation to a video game... thats just stupid. But if I'm using it in terms of ability, then yeah, I think there is a moral obligation to play at the lowest common denominator. You obviously have the ability to do what you want. Not everyone has that ability. You don't have to be show-off in all circumstances. There's a time for everything. If someone's falling behind, backtrack and help them out instead of pressing forward and clearing the level. Help them find their way. Maybe its annoying, but its the right thing to do. Even if it is just one person in a group of six. This is war man, maybe a fantasy role-played war, but war all the same, and you don't leave men behind. If you do, no matter your skill level, you're still a bad soldier.

[Rigby1]

So basically after reading this thread I've gathered that you don't like zergs and don't know that a lot is two words.

That being said, since you are a uberconfident arrogant chum list your server and character name and next time any of us zergs are on korthos island again we wont join your misery peak lfm's.
mk?


I am, Rameses!

I know alot is two words. I just got in the habit of writing it that way when i was young. Thank god that the idea was still conveyed. Usually comes out in the spell check. I like to zerg, if everyone is zerging. I can keep up with most everyone I've played with. I just don't like watching anybody getting left behind. It doesn't sit well with me. I have characters on most servers, and I always solo Korthos, so don't worry about my LFMs there.

[Gunga]

The first thing I did was openly admit that I'm full of myself. Why would you expect anything less. Commenting on this thread and not expecting to get a little bashing from an uberconfident arrogant pr1ck like me, isn't much different from a flowersniffer joining a zerg group. I take as well as I dish. i know I'm an as$hole. I'm good with that, keyboard or no keyboard. Other people don't, and need to realize it and either change, or be good with it.

Do you get punched a lot?

[Ganak]

Here's your Ghandi quote: "even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth."


Buddha said, "Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment."



Buddha was a zerger.




That is all.

[bobbryan2]

Just personal observation good sir. Even if its 75% in the favor of zergs, it doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to draw from the slow population when you're drawing from the general population.

Actually... by definition.. even if 75% were in favor of zerging, you're more likely to draw zergers when you're drawing from the general population.

Or do you not understand probabilities?

[Delt]

I zerged my pants:p

Fun quest, but 0% chance to pull epic loot.

[weyoun]

That right there is a sign that perhaps you take the game more seriously then most. Remember it is a game. If most are running it a certain way perhaps everything you perceive may not be the true feelings of others. It may just all be within your head. Lighten up.

+1 rep. well done sir

[Mhykke]

Just personal observation good sir. Even if its 75% in the favor of zergs, it doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to draw from the slow population when you're drawing from the general population. I'm advocating working together WITH your group... the only way that can be a bad thing, is that it forces you to compromise. God forbid you compromise a little to help out newer players. I suppose its selfish of me to think that the idea of joining a group is to play WITH the group. I should probably be a little more considerate to those who have no consideration for those who need help. I thinks its kind of juvenile, really on both of our accounts to be arguing in such a manner. I used the word need in relation to a video game... thats just stupid. But if I'm using it in terms of ability, then yeah, I think there is a moral obligation to play at the lowest common denominator. You obviously have the ability to do what you want. Not everyone has that ability. You don't have to be show-off in all circumstances. There's a time for everything. If someone's falling behind, backtrack and help them out instead of pressing forward and clearing the level. Help them find their way. Maybe its annoying, but its the right thing to do. Even if it is just one person in a group of six. This is war man, maybe a fantasy role-played war, but war all the same, and you don't leave men behind. If you do, no matter your skill level, you're still a bad soldier.

Another mistake you make is to assume that zerg does not equal "working with the group." Also, you make the mistake that "group" = slowest guy. According to your "working with the group" criterion, if there was 1 slow person in a group, then it is that person's responsibility to "work with the group" and catch up to the other 5 members.

[oberon131313]

that bottom line took an exceptionally long time to get to...

[Rigby1]

Do you get punched a lot?

I get swung on a couple times each year, but no one has actually connected with one in about 4 years.

[Rigby1]

Another mistake you make is to assume that zerg does not equal "working with the group." Also, you make the mistake that "group" = slowest guy. According to your "working with the group" criterion, if there was 1 slow person in a group, then it is that person's responsibility to "work with the group" and catch up to the other 5 members.

You have the ability to wait, they might not have the ability to catch up. I really don't think you can make something that is beyond someone's ability their responsibility.

[Rigby1]

Actually... by definition.. even if 75% were in favor of zerging, you're more likely to draw zergers when you're drawing from the general population.

Or do you not understand probabilities?

I have a post-graduate degree, and am very familiar with behavioral statistics, which go way beyond simple probability ratios. No, the point there is that you have the ability to wait, and they might not have the ability to catch up... making it unreasonable to make it their responsibility.

[Mhykke]

I get swung on a couple times each year, but no one has actually connected with one in about 4 years.

Stop fighting children.

[Rigby1]

Stop fighting children.

I guess you're asking me to stop arguing with YOU... I'll oblige. Have a good evening.

[Mhykke]

I guess you're asking me to stop arguing with YOU... I'll oblige. Have a good evening.

Awww, don't take your ball and go home...

Some "button pusher" you turned out to be.

[bobbryan2]

I have a post-graduate degree, and am very familiar with behavioral statistics, which go way beyond simple probability ratios. No, the point there is that you have the ability to wait, and they might not have the ability to catch up... making it unreasonable to make it their responsibility.

No... the point is that you apparantly are making complex behavioral algorithims in your head and hoping that they're applicable. So what are these behavioral statistics you're talking about? Zergers don't join LFMs? People that go slow suck and need extra help?

I might even agree with you, but you can't make grandiose claims like "even if 75% of the population, most LFMs would be slow" without some sort of basis for that fact. You alluded to absolutely no grouping or behavior modification in your premise, so yes... in fact.... it does come down to simple probability ratios.

But please... enlighten me with your post-graduate degree. I'm sure you have research on grouping data and LFMs that would be very interesting to hear. Hell.. I'd be impressed if you even have the raw data, let alone some sort of statistical analysis.

[transtemporal]

No, I feel like as much of a pr1ck as the person in front of me. This causes some dissonant cognitions, which puts me at odds with myself. That's my whole issue. To hang back or rush forward. Its really a no brainer I think. The emotion that arises is a feeling that the guy rushing ahead is more in the wrong, hence this whole thread.

How are you coming to this conclusion unless someone in the group actually says "hey guys, I'm new, do you mind slowing down a little?" Are you a mindreader?

Or are you just taking your experience in a couple of pugs and applying it universally to all pugs?

[Junts]

Watching green turn red as I click my mouse can be enormously satisfying.

[bobbryan2]

How are you coming to this conclusion unless someone in the group actually says "hey guys, I'm new, do you mind slowing down a little?" Are you a mindreader?

Or are you just taking your experience in a couple of pugs and applying it universally to all pugs?

Of course he is. He has a post-graduate degree in psychology and its effects on MMO players with special consideration of those left behind by zergers.

[transtemporal]

Of course he is. He has a post-graduate degree in psychology and its effects on MMO players with special consideration of those left behind by zergers.

Who weeps for those left behind by zergers?

Rigby1 does. :(

[Minor_Threat]

Enacting operation InternetStupidazation.

http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/attachments/random-thoughts/158816d1253138367-demotivational-posters-funny-but-sad-funny_motivational_posters_4.jpg

[Rigby1]

Of course he is. He has a post-graduate degree in psychology and its effects on MMO players with special consideration of those left behind by zergers.

M.A. Educational Psychology. I haven't even busted out with any psychology, nor do I plan to. I was just responding to some blowhard's assertion that I have problems with simple ratios. Though I have the knowledge, I wouldn't go through the trouble of actually doing an actual behavioral study on the playing habits of MMO players. I guestimated a percentage, and people really like to stretch when trying to discredit a valid point that ultimately had nothing to do with ratios or behavioral statistics.

[Rigby1]

How are you coming to this conclusion unless someone in the group actually says "hey guys, I'm new, do you mind slowing down a little?" Are you a mindreader?

Or are you just taking your experience in a couple of pugs and applying it universally to all pugs?

I sometimes wait to help guide them, and that conclusion is easy to draw, as its painfully obvious... I can do it if I'm up front by looking at the blue dots on the mini-map as well. Often someone does say, "hey wait up", to no avail. But the nonverbals are still there, even in an electronic world.

[Loki]

So I was gonna ask for a PM of your server and character names. Then I remembered myDDO.com and figure it'd be better to just look you up.

Here's (http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/bearcat/) what I found.

Since you're not on Khyber this is all pretty irrelevant now. But I did get a kick out of perusing your 5/4 Fighter/Rogue build...

P.S. I couldn't bear to read the entire thread, so I jumped to the end. Apologies if this is a repost.

[Mhykke]

So I was gonna ask for a PM of your server and character names. Then I remembered myDDO.com and figure it'd be better to just look you up.

Here's (http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/bearcat/) what I found.

Since you're not on Khyber this is all pretty irrelevant now. But I did get a kick out of perusing your 5/4 Fighter/Rogue build...

P.S. I couldn't bear to read the entire thread, so I jumped to the end. Apologies if this is a repost.


I never think to check that myddo. Glad I did in this case.

Favored enemy goblinoid at lvl 10? ***......

Now I know why he's so against zergers, he's tired of being left behind.

[Junts]

Nice Puzzle Cap.

My friends wonder why my TR won't pug.

[Minor_Threat]

This is the type of player that "casual" was made for.

[bobbryan2]

M.A. Educational Psychology. I haven't even busted out with any psychology, nor do I plan to. I was just responding to some blowhard's assertion that I have problems with simple ratios. Though I have the knowledge, I wouldn't go through the trouble of actually doing an actual behavioral study on the playing habits of MMO players. I guestimated a percentage, and people really like to stretch when trying to discredit a valid point that ultimately had nothing to do with ratios or behavioral statistics.

Look... you "guestimated" a percentage that 50% of the population zerged. You have no evidence. You pulled this made up statistic out of your butt.

When called out, you tried to downlplay your made up number by pulling another made up number out of your butt. That even given a over-abundance of zergers, non-zergers are more than 50% more likely to join an LFM than a zerger.

When you make up one number to downplay another made up number, you have "blowhards" call you out. That's just how it works. And I'm not discrediting valid points... I'm calling you out on just making numbers up without having ratios or behavioral statistics.

[stromburg]

To date I've only really had one problem with one zerger. I like running coalescence and usually do it at least twice a week so I joined a PUG group. Normally I'll go as fast as I can but if the party is inexperienced I'll guide them along.

Anyway, the party leader wanted the group to stick together but we had a warforged wizard that took off and didn't respond to any requests by the party leader to slow down nor communicate in any way except at the beginning when he typed "let's go" and at the very end when he typed "tks".

Now we had one fairly new player and an average group with not much experience in the quest so the remaining party trudged along, dealing with scorpions the warforged activated, the remaining mobs and constant yellow/red skulls. It was so sad that I just had the group climb to the end fight and wait for him. Needles to say a few minutes later the quest was done and he was gone; leaving the remaining party to absorb what was, IMHO, the worst gaming experience I have ever shared with a party.

Now in some ways you have to admire someone that can single-handedly complete such a quest in so short a time but you can't respect someone who shows no empathy for other people feelings and so deliberately invalidates other members of the party.

[Rigby1]

To date I've only really had one problem with one zerger. I like running coalescence and usually do it at least twice a week so I joined a PUG group. Normally I'll go as fast as I can but if the party is inexperienced I'll guide them along.

Anyway, the party leader wanted the group to stick together but we had a warforged wizard that took off and didn't respond to any requests by the party leader to slow down nor communicate in any way except at the beginning when he typed "let's go" and at the very end when he typed "tks".

Now we had one fairly new player and an average group with not much experience in the quest so the remaining party trudged along, dealing with scorpions the warforged activated, the remaining mobs and constant yellow/red skulls. It was so sad that I just had the group climb to the end fight and wait for him. Needles to say a few minutes later the quest was done and he was gone; leaving the remaining party to absorb what was, IMHO, the worst gaming experience I have ever shared with a party.

Now in some ways you have to admire someone that can single-handedly complete such a quest in so short a time but you can't respect someone who shows no empathy for other people feelings and so deliberately invalidates other members of the party..

Right on

[bobbryan2]

To date I've only really had one problem with one zerger. I like running coalescence and usually do it at least twice a week so I joined a PUG group. Normally I'll go as fast as I can but if the party is inexperienced I'll guide them along.

Anyway, the party leader wanted the group to stick together but we had a warforged wizard that took off and didn't respond to any requests by the party leader to slow down nor communicate in any way except at the beginning when he typed "let's go" and at the very end when he typed "tks".

Now we had one fairly new player and an average group with not much experience in the quest so the remaining party trudged along, dealing with scorpions the warforged activated, the remaining mobs and constant yellow/red skulls. It was so sad that I just had the group climb to the end fight and wait for him. Needles to say a few minutes later the quest was done and he was gone; leaving the remaining party to absorb what was, IMHO, the worst gaming experience I have ever shared with a party.

Now in some ways you have to admire someone that can single-handedly complete such a quest in so short a time but you can't respect someone who shows no empathy for other people feelings and so deliberately invalidates other members of the party.

To be fair... I've had a few runs like that myself. I doubt it was peaches and cream for him either. I've had runs where after 2-3 people fell back down to the bottom of the shaft, I gave up and said... just get to the top and I'll be right back with the key.

Hell... I've had to lap people in that quest.

But usually I have people thank me for getting them through that terrible thing, and not people complaining about not having to claim up 3 extra shafts.

[Rigby1]

Look... you "guestimated" a percentage that 50% of the population zerged. You have no evidence. You pulled this made up statistic out of your butt.

When called out, you tried to downlplay your made up number by pulling another made up number out of your butt. That even given a over-abundance of zergers, non-zergers are more than 50% more likely to join an LFM than a zerger.

When you make up one number to downplay another made up number, you have "blowhards" call you out. That's just how it works. And I'm not discrediting valid points... I'm calling you out on just making numbers up without having ratios or behavioral statistics.

It was obviously a made up number dude. No one needs to point out the obvious. That's why you're a blowhard. Who would really have that kind of info, and would it be reliable if it actually existed. I pulled the number out from what I've observed, and what I've seen other people guestimate... read through the posts other people put to see that I'm not the only one who thinks its about that. Regardless, the number doesn't matter. Arguing about a number that has no meaning to begin with is irrelevant.

If you want to zerg, do it where ever you want, except LFMs drawing from the general population or in LFMs that say quick run, favor run, or zerg run. If you do it in those two areas, you're stepping on someones toes, I don't care if they're the minority or not, that's why I pulled a second number out... the number doesn't mean anything. If you do it anywhere else but there, then you're not stepping on people's toes. How hard is that to understand. If you decide to adventure in those situations, if you're not going to relay your mind to others, then be halpful to the group, and follow the leader should probably be the standard, or ask the leader if its all right to act independently.

[bobbryan2]

It was obviously a made up number dude. No one needs to point out the obvious. That's why you're a blowhard. Who would really have that kind of info, and would it be reliable if it actually existed. I pulled the number out from what I've observed, and what I've seen other people guestimate... read through the posts other people put to see that I'm not the only one who thinks its about that. Regardless, the number doesn't matter. Arguing about a number that has no meaning to begin with is irrelevant.

If you want to zerg, do it where ever you want, except LFMs drawing from the general population or in LFMs that say quick run, favor run, or zerg run. If you do it in those two areas, you're stepping on someones toes, I don't care if they're the minority or not, that's why I pulled a second number out... the number doesn't mean anything. If you do it anywhere else but there, then you're not stepping on people's toes. How hard is that to understand. If you decide to adventure in those situations, if you're not going to relay your mind to others, then be halpful to the group, and follow the leader should probably be the standard, or ask the leader if its all right to act independently.

Of course you made the numbers up. But you didn't even stop there. You continue to make things up that you have no idea about... like for instance... that more people will join LFMs that can't zerg. That's the exact same thing as making up numbers, and yet you're using this as the basis for your arguments. Your arguments are built on sand. That's all I'm saying.

Take for example three LFMs I joined today:

First: A VoD. I jump in, didn't really want to wait for the group to fill, so I took off in the Subterrane. I clear to the switches, get them lit. By that time, 2-3 people had trickled in. We move on to get the lever that opens the final path, and most all the group has caught up at that point.

Then one person dies. He doesn't say anything, and everyone's a bit spread out, so people assume he's taken care of since he doesn't ask for help. Everyone gets to the end... and finally he says, "Took a wrong turn."

Turns out he never even turned, and died because he fell off the path into the living spells and didn't say anything until everyone was at the quest. In that group 11 people knew how to get themselves to the quest, and 1 didn't. Doesn't seem like the majority of people in a mid day LFM knew how to zerg.

Second LFM: Doing the titan. Same thing... 11 people manage to finish the quest. Had a nightmare with the cleric, as 11 people waited at the mindflayer, and the cleric died in the lava near the beginning. Someone went back to help.... and got back to the mindflayer. The cleric then went down a path he didn't have the crystal for, and ended up having to have a few more people go save him for a 3rd time.

Third LFM: Did the VONs with level 20s. Everyone zerged and got to the end just fine.


So out of 36 random people in these LFMs, 2 people didn't know where to go and were a total drain on party resources. Party leaders had far more patience than I would have had at that point, because I was just ready to leave them both.

If we just take my recent experiences, the fact that you say non-zergers are more than 300% more likely to join an LFM seems stupid. (25% vs 75%) My actual experiences today were 2 of 36 or about 5%.... which is a lot less than 300%.

Basically... you're talking out of your butt still. I'm sorry you can't zerg or don't like to zerg. But your opinions are incredibly skewed. Maybe it's because you haven't really experienced high level play yet.

[Rigby1]

So I was gonna ask for a PM of your server and character names. Then I remembered myDDO.com and figure it'd be better to just look you up.

Here's (http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/bearcat/) what I found.

Since you're not on Khyber this is all pretty irrelevant now. But I did get a kick out of perusing your 5/4 Fighter/Rogue build...

P.S. I couldn't bear to read the entire thread, so I jumped to the end. Apologies if this is a repost.

I'm on Khyber, those toons are anonymous, and I really haven't got them past the roll yet. I'm not going monthly, and i'm not going to spend the points I do buy on slots until I have all of the adventure content secured, so \I have character's spread out around worlds. I only make a few that I use frequently viewable to the public here.

I thought that fighter rogue would totally suck, I was just messing around when I rolled him up. He's got a generous helping of offensive feats, and is close to maxed out on move silently, hide in shadows, open lock, disable device, search, and spot, not to mention jump from his fighter levels. He speciallizes in piercing weapons, mostly to capitolize on the weapon finiesse feat and the big crit range for rapiers. His AC is weak, but that hasn't really been much of a problem so far. He has a mithral shield+2 for tougher spots, but i haven't had to use it really. He's got Human Versatility for a quick boost in a tight spot. and is poised to become both a first tier assasin and first tier kensai by level 12. I didn't expect this toon to turn out to be as fun to play as he is. He gets noticeably better everytime he levels.

He's not as good as my dwarven ranger though. He's a pretty straight tempest ranger, but what is most interesting about him is that he utilizes the dwarf axe enhancements, and walks around with twin dwarven axes. They're fairly common, so he's got a huge collection of all types.

Then there is my ranger3/cleric7 elven arcane archer, I thought that was a pretty creative build. He has a great diplomacy, so he can keep aggro off himself, yet still cause some damage from the fringes and keep the group healed up pretty well. He's just now becoming a decent healer though, and I in the past i did most of my group leading with him because I want to personally make sure he's not the primary healer and that I don't have two archers in the group.

Those are the three I play most.

[Hadrian]

I'm on Khyber, those toons are anonymous, and I really haven't got them past the roll yet. I'm not going monthly, and i'm not going to spend the points I do buy on slots until I have all of the adventure content secured, so \I have character's spread out around worlds. I only make a few that I use frequently viewable to the public here.

I thought that fighter rogue would totally suck, I was just messing around when I rolled him up. He's got a generous helping of offensive feats, and is close to maxed out on move silently, hide in shadows, open lock, disable device, search, and spot, not to mention jump from his fighter levels. He speciallizes in piercing weapons, mostly to capitolize on the weapon finiesse feat and the big crit range for rapiers. His AC is weak, but that hasn't really been much of a problem so far. He has a mithral shield+2 for tougher spots, but i haven't had to use it really. He's got Human Versatility for a quick boost in a tight spot. and is poised to become both a first tier assasin and first tier kensai by level 12. I didn't expect this toon to turn out to be as fun to play as he is. He gets noticeably better everytime he levels.

He's not as good as my dwarven ranger though. He's a pretty straight tempest ranger, but what is most interesting about him is that he utilizes the dwarf axe enhancements, and walks around with twin dwarven axes. They're fairly common, so he's got a huge collection of all types.

Then there is my ranger3/cleric7 elven arcane archer, I thought that was a pretty creative build. He has a great diplomacy, so he can keep aggro off himself, yet still cause some damage from the fringes and keep the group healed up pretty well. He's just now becoming a decent healer though, and I in the past i did most of my group leading with him because I want to personally make sure he's not the primary healer and that I don't have two archers in the group.

Those are the three I play most.

Wow. I can't tell if this is serious or not.

[Yagi]

The first time I ran with real zergers I had a blast. When I had been slowly exploring quests with other new players I often wondered "whats to stop me from running past all of these...hrm it looks like I could run in that room jump up and hit that switch in between arrows... then run to the boss and kill it before anything catches up to me and save myself 15 minutes..."
And then I would come back to the quest by myself and try my ideas and they worked. And then I got in to this group where everybody was doing the exact same type of thing, and there was this unspoken co-ordination in the group, I thought it was awesome.

I actually do try to go as slow as the slowest person since I have no interest in stressing anybody out, but when I join a group and I see people take off like a shot, game on! Lets race! (or in things I dont know, its more like a challenge to keep up, which is fun too.)

I generally found that these type of players had absolutely no problems with answering my questions about the quests or whatever random thing I asked about. If anything, zergers helped me learn alot, the people themselves and the playstyle.

There's nothing wrong with moving fast. If people can handle it. Somebody that goes running off and consistantly CANT handle it, well thats not zerging. I dont know what it is.


In quests like coal, if I dont think there is somebody better suited for it, my default behavior is to move as fast as possible and to keep moving when we are exposed to many ranged monsters out of reach of the casters so that everything is agroed on ME and people with less hps are not taking the brunt of the arrows/spells. I consider gaining monster's attentions to be my job if there is nobody better suited to do so and there is no way to avoid it. Whats wrong with this? I am trying to help my group, I cant reach the mobs quickly to kill them to ensure that we are progressing safely through the quest so I do the next best thing. My sprint skill isnt for show. It has its place. Sometimes running ahead and taking down priority targets is the difference between my party getting through a room or being ae'd by several casters at once while the melee monsters move in and start tripping people. Sometimes the mix of monsters+the dungeon geometry is well suited to a single player rushing past several rooms and using line of site behind a pillar with their axe at the ready sipping a few pots as the enemy casters are moving towards them rather then casting while the rest of the party comes from behind.
If you have a strategy you want to use, cool, say it, I'll do it. Otherwise I'm going to use my best judgement and sometimes that means I wont be standing on your toes through the entire dungeon.

[bobbryan2]

The first time I ran with real zergers I had a blast. When I had been slowly exploring quests with other new players I often wondered "whats to stop me from running past all of these...hrm it looks like I could run in that room jump up and hit that switch in between arrows... then run to the boss and kill it before anything catches up to me and save myself 15 minutes..."

Heh, my first experience with zerging was a eye-opening. Level cap was still 10, but Relic of a Sovreign Host had just come up. We were all newbs and underequipped. Our first try at elite was some 140 minute insanity... but we developed a loot run where we'd just grab the chest at the end of the sneak hallway. Rinse and Repeat.

We had an LFM up for one spot... and a fighter joined. He seemed confused when we said we were just farming the one chest, and he said, "follow me, the rest of the quest is easy." And the other 5 of us just watched him solo what was impossible in our eyes.

I actually took that as my first opportunity to see what I had to strive for, and a few months later (and a reroll), I had a character that could do those things too.

I never wanted to be coddled. I learned my best stuff watching others show me how to really play the game. Not all newbs want people to play down to them.

[ChaelaAnne]

I'm a bit confused why people seem to WANT to be kicked off the forums lately, but whatever.

I only got a page or two in, but I wanted to point this out: IF you are learning a game, and don't know terminology on an LFM, I actually think it's your responsibility to ask. I think that party leaders have the right to set the speed of their party, and not play to the lowest common denominator. That is why we HAVE the LFM system that we do, and why we can put comments about our LFM's in the panel.

[visionary1977]

No matter how much i disagree with the OP, to me zzerging is the natural progression from doing the quest 1ce to doing it for the 5+ time there is no need for everyone to get so insulting to each other..

people should try and get along regardless of their personal biggotry ;)

if your feeling stressed go in game and kill some mobs, dont fill the forums with your own brand of poison.

anyway not aimed at anyone in particular, just the tone of this thread has gone from mildly interesting to outright hostile in places.

Cheers, have fun and zzerg with you later :D

[Judo]

No... the point is that you apparantly are making complex behavioral algorithims in your head and hoping that they're applicable. So what are these behavioral statistics you're talking about? Zergers don't join LFMs? People that go slow suck and need extra help?

I might even agree with you, but you can't make grandiose claims like "even if 75% of the population, most LFMs would be slow" without some sort of basis for that fact. You alluded to absolutely no grouping or behavior modification in your premise, so yes... in fact.... it does come down to simple probability ratios.

But please... enlighten me with your post-graduate degree. I'm sure you have research on grouping data and LFMs that would be very interesting to hear. Hell.. I'd be impressed if you even have the raw data, let alone some sort of statistical analysis.

pimp, +1

[epochofcrepuscule]

Another mistake you make is to assume that zerg does not equal "working with the group." Also, you make the mistake that "group" = slowest guy. According to your "working with the group" criterion, if there was 1 slow person in a group, then it is that person's responsibility to "work with the group" and catch up to the other 5 members.


You have the ability to wait, they might not have the ability to catch up. I really don't think you can make something that is beyond someone's ability their responsibility.

If you are clearing everything in your zerg run, then why cant they keep up? Maybe they should hop back over to WoW or have their parents teach them basic wasd or t-target mode movement controls.

Also, since your own theory on "working with the grp" has an exception for the slowest player... is the slowest player you?


I never think to check that myddo. Glad I did in this case.

Favored enemy goblinoid at lvl 10? ***......

Now I know why he's so against zergers, he's tired of being left behind.

fe gobby at lvl 10? goblins everywhere in lvl 10 quests.....

[Lorz]

I'm on Khyber, those toons are anonymous, and I really haven't got them past the roll yet. I'm not going monthly, and i'm not going to spend the points I do buy on slots until I have all of the adventure content secured, so \I have character's spread out around worlds. I only make a few that I use frequently viewable to the public here.

I thought that fighter rogue would totally suck, I was just messing around when I rolled him up. He's got a generous helping of offensive feats, and is close to maxed out on move silently, hide in shadows, open lock, disable device, search, and spot, not to mention jump from his fighter levels. He speciallizes in piercing weapons, mostly to capitolize on the weapon finiesse feat and the big crit range for rapiers. His AC is weak, but that hasn't really been much of a problem so far. He has a mithral shield+2 for tougher spots, but i haven't had to use it really. He's got Human Versatility for a quick boost in a tight spot. and is poised to become both a first tier assasin and first tier kensai by level 12. I didn't expect this toon to turn out to be as fun to play as he is. He gets noticeably better everytime he levels.

He's not as good as my dwarven ranger though. He's a pretty straight tempest ranger, but what is most interesting about him is that he utilizes the dwarf axe enhancements, and walks around with twin dwarven axes. They're fairly common, so he's got a huge collection of all types.

Then there is my ranger3/cleric7 elven arcane archer, I thought that was a pretty creative build. He has a great diplomacy, so he can keep aggro off himself, yet still cause some damage from the fringes and keep the group healed up pretty well. He's just now becoming a decent healer though, and I in the past i did most of my group leading with him because I want to personally make sure he's not the primary healer and that I don't have two archers in the group.

Those are the three I play most.

This reads to me as: Im an internet tough guy and great thinker...all you have played a lot longer and actually know this game should listen to me kinda babble from OP.

Also, are you ashamed of your toons? Seems like that since your mains arent really anywhere anyone can see. I mean might as well claim you have a lvl 20 TR2 toon.

Come back to use after you have played more than a few times. Then we will make you some milk and cookies and discuss the issues you think you had.

[kurand]

I'm on Khyber, those toons are anonymous, and I really haven't got them past the roll yet. I'm not going monthly, and i'm not going to spend the points I do buy on slots until I have all of the adventure content secured, so \I have character's spread out around worlds. I only make a few that I use frequently viewable to the public here.

I thought that fighter rogue would totally suck, I was just messing around when I rolled him up. He's got a generous helping of offensive feats, and is close to maxed out on move silently, hide in shadows, open lock, disable device, search, and spot, not to mention jump from his fighter levels. He speciallizes in piercing weapons, mostly to capitolize on the weapon finiesse feat and the big crit range for rapiers. His AC is weak, but that hasn't really been much of a problem so far. He has a mithral shield+2 for tougher spots, but i haven't had to use it really. He's got Human Versatility for a quick boost in a tight spot. and is poised to become both a first tier assasin and first tier kensai by level 12. I didn't expect this toon to turn out to be as fun to play as he is. He gets noticeably better everytime he levels.

He's not as good as my dwarven ranger though. He's a pretty straight tempest ranger, but what is most interesting about him is that he utilizes the dwarf axe enhancements, and walks around with twin dwarven axes. They're fairly common, so he's got a huge collection of all types.

Then there is my ranger3/cleric7 elven arcane archer, I thought that was a pretty creative build. He has a great diplomacy, so he can keep aggro off himself, yet still cause some damage from the fringes and keep the group healed up pretty well. He's just now becoming a decent healer though, and I in the past i did most of my group leading with him because I want to personally make sure he's not the primary healer and that I don't have two archers in the group.

Those are the three I play most.

Been playing a bard named "xuxu" or something like that?

had a run in with a person who started reaming me when I was doing "dead predators".Level 8 paladin(me) went in on normal because everyone was talking about how hard it was,I cleared it out solo and was at the end chest when this bard starts reaming me out for not being a group player.

My thinking was if it was truely hard,then I would die and we'd know how hard of a difficulty we could do,the rest of the group being levels 5-6.But since I did it solo on normal I figured I could do it easily on hard and the rest of us could then do elite and it would test our group ability.

I squelched this level 5 female character bard within a minute of them talking,I have no patience for people who try to lead a group and force people to go their pace or do things their way.

[transtemporal]

I sometimes wait to help guide them, and that conclusion is easy to draw, as its painfully obvious... I can do it if I'm up front by looking at the blue dots on the mini-map as well. Often someone does say, "hey wait up", to no avail. But the nonverbals are still there, even in an electronic world.

Ok.... I do the same thing but I still don't see how you can draw the conclusion you've drawn.

I watch the mini-map and if I notice someone dropping behind, I ask "You ok xxxxx?" and if they reply, I'll go back and get them and make sure from that point they know the pertinent facts about the quest. Or if they ask, I'll go back for them. If they ask to slow down a bit, the vast majority of parties (at least on argo it seems) will slow down.
I don't handhold and I don't spoil the quest for them but I tell them enough to not stuff it up or get into trouble. Eventually, we catch up to the party and everything is sweet.

At no time do I think "I had to go back to get the newbie... therefore zergers are bad". ??? Where does that come from?

[Bosco]

Allow me to enlighten the zerg haters out there. It is the natural progression. Anyone who has run waterworks over 100 times is most likely running it for quick xp.

All these new guys you are championing their cause for will eventually zerg. Which means you will hate them too.

Why are you sticking up for people you hate?

[Zaodan]

Ahh, yet another thread from a newbie (notice I didn't say n00b) who is still learning the game, and finds themselves grouped in PUGs with Vets who know what their doing and are so twinked that they can survive on their own long enough for the newbies to catch up to them in the quest.

These threads are always so amusing. I especially love the tone, you know, the minority (the newbie) trying to tell those of us who are in power (the Vets) "how things are gonna be." So cute. Almost as if they stood a chance against our infinite power.

Now, act like a good newbie and carry my bags through the dungeon for me. I'll be at the end, soloing the boss. Good boy!

[Hadrian]

These threads are always so amusing. I especially love the tone, you know, the minority (the newbie) trying to tell those of us who are in power (the Vets) "how things are gonna be." So cute. Almost as if they stood a chance against our infinite power.




Yesterday I was in a group with an arcane archer at around level 10. He died on the very first encounter with two mobs. He shot at one of them before anyone else could get there, and it chased him down and killed him.

Then, while dead, he started giving me instructions on how to handle the next encounter.

[Rigby1]

This reads to me as: Im an internet tough guy and great thinker...all you have played a lot longer and actually know this game should listen to me kinda babble from OP.

Also, are you ashamed of your toons? Seems like that since your mains arent really anywhere anyone can see. I mean might as well claim you have a lvl 20 TR2 toon.

Come back to use after you have played more than a few times. Then we will make you some milk and cookies and discuss the issues you think you had.

No, all three of my main toons are public, and I harbor no shame in relation to video game skill level, that's just stupid. This game isn't rocket science, I really really really wish that you experienced players would stop walking around with this holier than thou attitude. Anybody with rudimentary pen and paper knowledge and the ability to use their left index finger can essentially master the game mechanics quickly. I mean combat is performed with a left mouse click, like you're really doing something special.

I'm hoping the later game content is actually challenging, so maybe I'll have a total breakdown and admit that some measure of skill is actually involved over the next month as I run my three main toons to level 20. I haven't played into the later levels yet, and am not going to claim to have such knowledge

I think there is a natural progression to zerging for sure... that's one thing I think that I'm buying that you guys are selling. The thing is, that this progression most likely occurs when your patience runs thin, which probably coincides with when the game begins to take over your life. I also think that I'd rather play with some well-mannered groups of people who play WITH eachother. I don't care to play with anyone who plays with themselves. I don't want your taint on my gaming session.

Honestly, my buddy and I were hanging around, and I said, "Watch how worked up these f*cks get over a stupid game!" I read a few posts, and knew complaining about zerging would be a good way to get the truly desperately pale, undersexed, societal rejects out of their holes. For the most part, I wasn't let down, especially by those of you who claim to be experienced players. I love how judgemental of other players, and how boa****l you are of your own skills. Like it even matters. To quote Mitch from Waiting, being the best DDO player, "is like being the smartest ******." Get some sun, and try to enjoy your miserable existances.

I could really care less how other people play, I solo almost everything.

Otherwise, I hope everyone finds themselves as well as they can be at the moment.

[Rigby1]

Yesterday I was in a group with an arcane archer at around level 10. He died on the very first encounter with two mobs. Hot shot at one of them before anyone else could get there, and it chased him down and killed him.

Then, while dead, he started giving me instructions on how to handle the next encounter.

It wasn't me, I haven't played my level 10 arcane archer for over a month. Even if it was, I would have used diplomacy to keep the aggro off me.

[bobbryan2]

It wasn't me, I haven't played my level 10 arcane archer for over a month. Even if it was, I would have used diplomacy to keep the aggro off me.

Diplo?!?

[Rigby1]

Diplo?!?

Yeah, diplo, haven't you heard... this is straight from the compendium:

The diplomacy skill is an area effect which causes the selected enemy to cease attacking the user for a short period of time. Enemies under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still attack other party members. It has no activation time and affects all targets within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the target's diplomacy DC and the skill is either successful or not. There is no die roll involved in this use of diplomacy

[Zenmity]

While DDO is lacking many of the positive social qualities of DnD, it still allows you to pick and choose who you want to play with.

Run with a guild, PUG selectively, or solo. It's truly THAT easy...

The first time through a quest, I prefer to sniff the flowers and experience it as I would with a real DM. If I can get that with a group, I will. Otherwise, I'll go it solo (which the game supports for nearly all of its content). After the first run I KNOW what's going to happen, and no amount of RP in my head will change that. After that run, the real "experience" is gone and it's simply a grind for "experience" - I'll go through it as fast as a group wants.

I don't see the OP's issue. Pick who you game with, just like PnP DnD...

[bobbryan2]

Yeah, diplo, haven't you heard... this is straight from the compendium:

The diplomacy skill is an area effect which causes the selected enemy to cease attacking the user for a short period of time. Enemies under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still attack other party members. It has no activation time and affects all targets within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the target's diplomacy DC and the skill is either successful or not. There is no die roll involved in this use of diplomacy

Yeah... I know what it is. Diplo is only a skill to use when characters can't handle aggro. And I've grown weary of characters that can't handle their aggro. Usually if I can't handle my aggro, the people I throw it off on are going to be far worse off.

[Zenmity]

The diplomacy skill is an area effect which causes the selected enemy to cease attacking the user for a short period of time. Enemies under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still attack other party members. It has no activation time and affects all targets within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the target's diplomacy DC and the skill is either successful or not. There is no die roll involved in this use of diplomacy

Unfortunately, that's a misprint. It should read:

The diplomacy skills is an area effect which causes a chests' drop to increase as if using a medium jewel of fortune. Chests under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still drop normal look for other party members. It has no activation time and affects all chests within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the chest's loot level to determine the phatness of the lewt. The is a hidden die roll involved in this use of diplomacy..

[Rigby1]

Yeah... I know what it is. Diplo is only a skill to use when characters can't handle aggro. And I've grown weary of characters that can't handle their aggro. Usually if I can't handle my aggro, the people I throw it off on are going to be far worse off.

My archer is a decent healer too. He only has three levels of ranger, the rest are cleric, and he's been picking up the other arching feats as he progresses. He's usually very capable of cleaning up his own messes, and . especially when he's not getting hacked at. He can also deal a decent amount of damage from the fringe on monsters aggroed by others if the situation doesn't get too ugly for everyone else involved. Its all about how he's played.

[Rigby1]

Unfortunately, that's a misprint. It should read:

The diplomacy skills is an area effect which causes a chests' drop to increase as if using a medium jewel of fortune. Chests under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still drop normal look for other party members. It has no activation time and affects all chests within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the chest's loot level to determine the phatness of the lewt. The is a hidden die roll involved in this use of diplomacy..

What?

[bobbryan2]

My archer is a decent healer too. He only has three levels of ranger, the rest are cleric, and he's been picking up the other arching feats as he progresses. He's usually very capable of cleaning up his own messes, and . especially when he's not getting hacked at. He can also deal a decent amount of damage from the fringe on monsters aggroed by others if the situation doesn't get too ugly for everyone else involved. Its all about how he's played.

The fact remains the same. If you're better off dumping aggro onto someone else in the party, other people in the party are either better equipped to deal with it, or you're about to wipe.

I just don't like people depending on diplo to stay alive... it gives people the wrong idea that it's ok to have characters that can't function with aggro. The biggest abusers are divine and arcane casters, who should be better equipped to deal with aggro than even melees.

[bandyman1]

Yeah, diplo, haven't you heard... this is straight from the compendium:

The diplomacy skill is an area effect which causes the selected enemy to cease attacking the user for a short period of time. Enemies under the effect of the diplomacy skill will still attack other party members. It has no activation time and affects all targets within range. When activated, the character's diplomacy modifier is compared to the target's diplomacy DC and the skill is either successful or not. There is no die roll involved in this use of diplomacy

And an experienced player would know that the conpendium is wrong about half the time.

Diplo absolutely gets a roll. Don't believe me??? Use it for yourself and see if you don't see the die roll + your modifer, and either a success or failure.

[bandyman1]

Honestly, my buddy and I were hanging around, and I said, "Watch how worked up these f*cks get over a stupid game!" I read a few posts, and knew complaining about zerging would be a good way to get the truly desperately pale, undersexed, societal rejects out of their holes. For the most part, I wasn't let down, especially by those of you who claim to be experienced players. I love how judgemental of other players, and how boa****l you are of your own skills. Like it even matters. To quote Mitch from Waiting, being the best DDO player, "is like being the smartest ******." Get some sun, and try to enjoy your miserable existances.


Ahh...there it is. The old " must have no life " argument.

Always delivered by those who suck, to those who don't.

Question; If you sooooo don't care what anyone else is doing in this game, and you solo almost everything anyways, *** are you here posting again???

Oh yeah, you wanted to show your buddy how worked up you could get people here.

So....this is what you're friend and you have to resort to for entertainment??? Trolling an internet board???

Who has no life again?

[Rigby1]

The fact remains the same. If you're better off dumping aggro onto someone else in the party, other people in the party are either better equipped to deal with it, or you're about to wipe.

I just don't like people depending on diplo to stay alive... it gives people the wrong idea that it's ok to have characters that can't function with aggro. The biggest abusers are divine and arcane casters, who should be better equipped to deal with aggro than even melees.

He can handle aggro if it comes down to it. He's geared up like a ranger, armor-wise... some good mithril chain, and a really good shield if its a really tough opponent. He could be a bit sturdier, I admit, but he's not exactly a slouch. He also has weapon finesse, which, when combined with divine power, and whatever other spell buffs he has going gives him great attack... could do more damage. He usually goes 2wf melee when the opponent doesn't seem that intimidating. In the end, his biggest weakness is low hit points, he's level 10 and has 100.

[bandyman1]

he's level 10 and has 100.

Yeahhhhh.....

Conversation done.

[bobbryan2]

He can handle aggro if it comes down to it. He's geared up like a ranger, armor-wise... some good mithril chain, and a really good shield if its a really tough opponent. He could be a bit sturdier, I admit, but he's not exactly a slouch. He also has weapon finesse, which, when combined with divine power, and whatever other spell buffs he has going gives him great attack... could do more damage. He usually goes 2wf melee when the opponent doesn't seem that intimidating. In the end, his biggest weakness is low hit points, he's level 10 and has 100.

At end game, HP are the most important stat for survivability. AC is mostly irrelevant save a few specialized builds. DR is great, but class-specific. HP is the difference between life and death.

If you're having trouble with his HP at level 10, you're in for a bit of an eye-opener at level 20 when 5 barbezus teleport to your backside and hit you for 30 points... each...

[Zenmity]

In the end, his biggest weakness is low hit points, he's level 10 and has 100.

I'd call that more than a "weakness".