My Rant

[L'Scant]

I rarely ever post here but today ive had enough and need to say my peace. First off id like to say im an advocate of playing your character how you want. That said, there are still things that need to be addressed. First off its a team sport not a kill count contest. There is a reason you get extra XP for everyone living and no one re-entering. The group is more likely to survive if you spend a few SP's on party buffs before throwing firewalls everywhere. Secondly, all clerics are healers, hence the extra spell at each level specifically for healing. No matter what your class if you can heal you should heal your party members rather then letting them die. People that refuse to help thier party members must not like the extra xp bonus we get from not dying. I even had a paladin (8th level) in my group that had no spells memorized because "he doesnt ever cast them."
One more thing i want to address is the fact that it is a gold based economy not plat. Reguardless of how you feel about it your not going to sell that +3 charisma ring for 25k plat because thats what they went for in you last game.
Can we get back to being dungeons and dragons and have good team play with interesting builds that work for entire parties rather than trying to become more like WOW?

*EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION
It seems my post has been taken for a mainly "HEALING" post. I want to clarify its more about the increase in selfish play Ive notice since relaunch. All to often i see characters self buff and take off inside a dungeon and not even try to work as a team. Old school pen and paper players may recall an article in Dragon magazine from Elminsters viewpoint called "MOre to being a Mage" It disusses the importance of teamwork.

[Goldeneye]

I'm guessing you're dealing w/ a bunch of freebies.

[Impaqt]

I rarely ever post here but today ive had enough and need to say my peace. First off id like to say im an advocate of playing your character how you want. That said, there are still things that need to be addressed. First off its a team sport not a kill count contest. There is a reason you get extra XP for everyone living and no one re-entering. The group is more likely to survive if you spend a few SP's on party buffs before throwing firewalls everywhere. Secondly, all clerics are healers, hence the extra spell at each level specifically for healing. No matter what your class if you can heal you should heal your party members rather then letting them die. People that refuse to help thier party members must not like the extra xp bonus we get from not dying. I even had a paladin (8th level) in my group that had no spells memorized because "he doesnt ever cast them."
One more thing i want to address is the fact that it is a gold based economy not plat. Reguardless of how you feel about it your not going to sell that +3 charisma ring for 25k plat because thats what they went for in you last game.
Can we get back to being dungeons and dragons and have good team play with interesting builds that work for entire parties rather than trying to become more like WOW?

For the people that have been here for 4 years, the economy IS based on Plat. GP's are irrelevant.

I sold a RR +3 CHR Ring the other day for 25k Plat..... Maybe your on Thelanis and saw it?

THere 2 reasons why healers dont heal.

1 THey are bad players. THere ar elots of these around.

2. They arent healing you because you're a bad player.

Too many people feel that because this game has "Healers" in it they dont need to take any personal responsibility for their character at all. THe cleric (Or anyone that can use a wand or cast a healing spell) should take care of them.

Hogwash.

Carry Pots. Play smart. Take personal responsiility.

The game is a whole lot more fun when you dont have to rely on everyone else to stay alive.

The "10% bonus" for not dying was one of the worst things turbine ever introduced IMO. Its just silly. every other bonus we have is progressive. you dont even see a ransack bonus until you get to ransack. You dont see an insideous cunning bonus until the quest completes even. It has effectively become a 10% Penalty if someone does die. Its Backwards.

The Bonus should be PER PLAYER as far as I'm concerned. Why should I lose out on XP because someone else is an idiot?

Or just have the bonus not appear until the end of the quest. Too many people see that bonus xp and feel they have a right to it.

SOrry for the side rant. But that bonus/penalty system is screwy.

[phalaeo]

I sure hope you're not the Barb I ran Shan to Kor with on my lowbie Cleric this morning.

The one who asked me petulantly to remove his fear even though he was two rooms ahead of the party while we were killing the Earth Eles?

The one who told me in party chat that my "job" was (and I quote, cause I got the screenshot so guildies could laugh) "Your job is to watch while I swing".

Indeed Clerics should heal party members- If you are specced as a Melee (or "battle") Cleric, it should be mentioned in the LFM or to the party leader. But, if I see mobs going for a squishy and I have a Longsword, you bet I'm going to go swing it, even if I am heal specced.

[L'Scant]

Im not that barb thankfully...lol. I rarely play straight melee characters and play mostly support classes. It is frustrating when you have to chase down party members for buffs and healing because they wont wait. Thirty seconds of buffs can save forty-five minutes of heartbreak. I agree you should come in somewhat self sufficient but to not do anything beneficial to the party is signing a death warrant.

[MonsterAbuser]

Are there non-straight melee characters? Do they redecorate dungeons as they go through them?

[Missing_Minds]

The Bonus should be PER PLAYER as far as I'm concerned. Why should I lose out on XP because someone else is an idiot?

Or rolled a 1 on a save. Bad luck just cost everyone 10% xp. geee.. nice.

[Missing_Minds]

I sure hope you're not the Barb I ran Shan to Kor with on my lowbie Cleric this morning.
The one who asked me petulantly to remove his fear even though he was two rooms ahead of the party while we were killing the Earth Eles?
The one who told me in party chat that my "job" was (and I quote, cause I got the screenshot so guildies could laugh) "Your job is to watch while I swing".

*grins* So if he complains about dying, just tell him the honest answer.

"Hey, you told me my job was to watch you. I'm watching... you ain't doing too hot."

*insert youtube video of Mel Brooks: Robin Hood: Men in Tights where Robin just told Ahchoo to watch his back.*

[ikkle.D]

I dislike to have to say that some players you dont want to play with again. I remember a time in DDO when people who died a lot accured something that was called XP Debt. I loved XP debt... it was great because you could be pretty sure that the people you were playing with at cap knew how to complete a quest without blowing lots of resources and dying every five mins or so. Yes, that's right there were no people who needed harsh beating with a large clue bat at high level. Some people found it hard to get past five.


This 10% exp bonus for no deaths in a quest is good but honestly please dont expect to earn it unless you're solo play or with other players your know, love and trust.

My advice to the OP is to try and find a group of people that fit your play style, form or join a guild, talk to other players about quests and NEVER EVER expect too much from people. What ever can go wrong will go wrong... oh and one more thing.... dont forget your sense of humor... it's just a game after all.

Edit after some thoughts on your rant.

I suppose I've felt the same way and I can offer the following to you. People who have never played cleric/healing role will not appreciate your job as part of the team, in fact they won't percieve themselves as being in a team. it's all about them. Let me tell you this (and I am certain that many experienced players will agree) if someone does not deserve your healing because they are:
1. Not team playing.
2. Doing things that cost YOU resources (it's not your job to finance their mistakes or ego problems)
3. Working against the general objectives of the group.

... then simply stop healing them. They will either:
1. Die and res out of the quest. (problem solved)
2. Start self healing/buffing (problem solved)

By continue to support bad play style with your buffs and healing you are encouraging bad play style, do not become part of the problem that you dislike so much, become the solution. Support and heal players that are in range and LoS and fighting sensibly and managing aggro according to group skill/quest difficulty. This will encourage a group to work WITH you rather than you chasing some fool around a quest trying to heal him, often to the loss of players who are willing to work with you.

Anyway... I guess that is all and I expect to be flamed for this but know that those that flame probably require hearty beating with clue bat so i dont really mind it. :)

Remember, cleric is an eduction in how to play correctly every single class in the game because it requires you to stand back and watch what works and what does not. A unique position!

Good luck and fortune in your questings.

[Frodo_Lives]

If someone is trying to ring up kill counts by running ahead of the party then they are really not a good player and certainly not a good team player.

If that same someone is having trouble staying on their feet and keeping themselves debuff free when acting in the above manner then they are a lousy player.

I have characters of all different classes, and I have no problem working as a team no matter which character I'm on. However, if I'm on my cleric or FvS and you start complaining about not being healed or whatever, I simply tell that person to stick with the group and you'll get your share of my sp bar.

Running two or three rooms ahead of the rest of the party is IMO bad form, even if you can pull it off. If you wanted to solo then solo, you don't need an audience and you don't need to ruin the run for the rest of the group by doing so.

As for a paladin not studying spells, well there are bad players out there who don't take advantage of the classes abilities. Usually I try to educate someone new about the benifits of (insert class feature) and why it's useful. If said player is not interested in learning or even open to the idea of better understanding the game, their class, and how to become a better player they are not worth my time and I don't bother to group with them again. Thankfully those types of people are few and far between.

As for the pp vs. gp issue. Yes this games economy has been based on plat, and their is nothing wrong with that. I will agree that some of the pricing has gotten insane and it's a wonder if anything gets sold on the AH. Taps for 5k plat each? Portable holes for 50K? Mid range jewelry and clothing for 10 times what they used to be? Who buys that? Vets know better and new players don't have the funds.

[LordMond]

I'm not sure that there is any credible way to force people to play as a team, even if it is to their benefit if they do so. In fact, trying to force people to "play nice" might just have the effect of causing more people to leave the game, perverse though that sounds.

If you want to sort of urge people to work together, I think the better way to go about doing so would be to increase positive reinforcement (such as the 10% bonus to group xp for no deaths) rather than to increase negative reinforcement (xp penalties upon death, etc.).

Accidents do happen. Players do roll 1s on their saving throws. Mobs do get crits on you. Players do go LD at the worst times (usually the only tank or healer). There are things other than stupidity and bad play that cause player deaths.

[DoctorWhofan]

Im not that barb thankfully...lol. I rarely play straight melee characters and play mostly support classes. It is frustrating when you have to chase down party members for buffs and healing because they wont wait. Thirty seconds of buffs can save forty-five minutes of heartbreak. I agree you should come in somewhat self sufficient but to not do anything beneficial to the party is signing a death warrant.

So do I. I will buff the people who wait for the buff. I wil heal the people who stay near me. If neither happen andthey die, I might throw them a raise or pick up their stone. But I am not healing them. THis philosophy is for the lower and mid levels where this trend is happening. At high levels, still more smart players (both old and new) who bring their lunches to the dungeon and are willing to share/trade their chips (resistances, blur) for grapes (deathward).

Mind you, everyone has an off day, and not everyone understands the concept. But you are not soloing, you have other team mates, I don't care if you want to Soundburst and Firewall them to death, but ifthe party is trying to help, try to help the party.


I dislike to have to say that some players you dont want to play with again. I remember a time in DDO when people who died a lot accured something that was called XP Debt. I loved XP debt... it was great because you could be pretty sure that the people you were playing with at cap knew how to complete a quest without blowing lots of resources and dying every five mins or so. Yes, that's right there were no people who needed harsh beating with a large clue bat at high level. Some people found it hard to get past five.


This 10% exp bonus for no deaths in a quest is good but honestly please dont expect to earn it unless you're solo play or with other players your know, love and trust.



Seeing a visible negative to your XP, is far more sobering than hitting the X key (which many new players and almost all the idiots don't know about) and noticing the +10% XP bonus on your way to the kill count.

[DoctorWhofan]

I'm not sure that there is any credible way to force people to play as a team, even if it is to their benefit if they do so. In fact, trying to force people to "play nice" might just have the effect of causing more people to leave the game, perverse though that sounds.

If you want to sort of urge people to work together, I think the better way to go about doing so would be to increase positive reinforcement (such as the 10% bonus to group xp for no deaths) rather than to increase negative reinforcement (xp penalties upon death, etc.).

Accidents do happen. Players do roll 1s on their saving throws. Mobs do get crits on you. Players do go LD at the worst times (usually the only tank or healer). There are things other than stupidity and bad play that cause player deaths.

Trust me, it is a mindset that is different than soloing. THey have to break the mold. I always try to remind people that there are other people around, and I advocate open mindness and a team spirit. But this all these new players we have (F2P or not) a lot more (selfish or not) idiots have slipped through, andwe all pay the price.

That's why Vets are soloing more now than ever. PuGging, once a great way to meet new players and have fun outside your guild has become torture for many. Some of new players are feeling it too.

[techknowannie]

Are there non-straight melee characters? Do they redecorate dungeons as they go through them?
that made me chuckle +1 to you :D

[Quazi]

I even had a paladin (8th level) in my group that had no spells memorized because "he doesnt ever cast them."


I'm not sure about this Pally that was in your party, but I've got a level 8 Pally that can't cast many spells at all and when I do they aren't Heal spells (Low mana). My character design won't really start using spells effectively until higher level once I acquire at least a +4 or higher Wis Item and a mana item (PoP or WIZ Item). Maybe his character was the same way?

I do however wand whip like its going out of style to help heal. Every party member should have efficient potions to heal themselves as well.

[BLAKROC]

I rarely ever post here but today ive had enough and need to say my peace. First off id like to say im an advocate of playing your character how you want. That said, there are still things that need to be addressed. First off its a team sport not a kill count contest. There is a reason you get extra XP for everyone living and no one re-entering. The group is more likely to survive if you spend a few SP's on party buffs before throwing firewalls everywhere. Secondly, all clerics are healers, hence the extra spell at each level specifically for healing. No matter what your class if you can heal you should heal your party members rather then letting them die. People that refuse to help thier party members must not like the extra xp bonus we get from not dying. I even had a paladin (8th level) in my group that had no spells memorized because "he doesnt ever cast them."
One more thing i want to address is the fact that it is a gold based economy not plat. Reguardless of how you feel about it your not going to sell that +3 charisma ring for 25k plat because thats what they went for in you last game.
Can we get back to being dungeons and dragons and have good team play with interesting builds that work for entire parties rather than trying to become more like WOW?

*EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION
It seems my post has been taken for a mainly "HEALING" post. I want to clarify its more about the increase in selfish play Ive notice since relaunch. All to often i see characters self buff and take off inside a dungeon and not even try to work as a team. Old school pen and paper players may recall an article in Dragon magazine from Elminsters viewpoint called "MOre to being a Mage" It disusses the importance of teamwork.

yep i have those spells on my clerics and I use em on my self all the time :D
sorry no more time to chat gotta go spend some PLAT on heal scrolls for, umm myself............................................ ......

[LordMond]

Trust me, it is a mindset that is different than soloing. THey have to break the mold. I always try to remind people that there are other people around, and I advocate open mindness and a team spirit. But this all these new players we have (F2P or not) a lot more (selfish or not) idiots have slipped through, andwe all pay the price.

DWF:

I suspect you're dead on, though I wish you weren't.

At the risk of inviting some serious flaming, when you lower the standards (in this case by introducing ftp), you tend to attract a good deal more marginal (to be charitable) players. Yes I'm generalizing but maybe a bit less than one might wish. I know that I expect more from a game when I have to pony up cash to play it (now actually having expectations met is another matter altogether.....).


That's why Vets are soloing more now than ever. PuGging, once a great way to meet new players and have fun outside your guild has become torture for many. Some of new players are feeling it too.

Again, true but equally lamentable. But experience tends to make a harsh judge of people.