Removal of level sigils;really now?

[knightgf]

So if you are wondering,, ages ago, the Update 3 release notes were published, and one of several things that caught my eyes was the fact that level sigils were removed in-game. Now, I am not complaining that Turbine is removing level sigils. To be honest, I kinda feel glad that an obstruction such as this was finally lifted out of the way for creating new characters, even though I realized that Turbine wanted the Player to invest either money or time for having you in-game.

But you know, it still really bugs me. Is this game really THAT much of a success that they removed level sigils as a way to help pay for the game? I will admit, the game has been a success since the reroll made on September 9, 2009, but is it really SO much of a success to start eliminating things for profit such as level sigils? While generosity from a company is quite nice(Indeed, since the creation of F2P for this game), a company must be careful not to give too much away, otherwise they will have more expenses than profits. While I thank you so much Turbine for eliminating leveling sigils in-game for your next update, it just worries me about the potential profits that could be used to benefit the company itself alongside the players. I would take better customer service ANY day or maybe faster, improved quality updates than the removal of level sigils.

But in the end, I realize that its up to Turbine to decide whether or not to do this. Very few, if any players can influence their actions, but either way, I'm fine with whether or not they leave or take away leveling sigils, apart from the fact that Turbine is missing out some potential that could be gained from the profits of level sigils...

[Zaodan]

Is this game really THAT much of a success that they removed level sigils as a way to help pay for the game?

A. The cost of the sigils generates revenue.
B. The cost of the sigils turns F2P players off, and as a result, they quit, which lowers revenue.

If (A>B) then (Leave Sigils In);
else (if B>A) then (Remove Sigils);


Pretty simple.

[captain1z]

Sigils were a double cost

- buy sigils to level from 8-12
- buy content so you can actually level

that 2 purchases just to level. Its frustrating and only makes it seem like you are out to drain someones pockets every step of the way.

The way it is now buying content can be very rewarding because you will level, you will get new gear and you have the quests themselves.

Its like those former vips that went f2p and had warforged monks as characters. they had to buy a slot to make the character available, then buy wf, then buy monks just to play 1 character. triple cost for access to one guy.

[Mockduck]

Obviously I don't have access to the numbers or the ability to sit in meetings, but I think it's safe to assume that Turbine isn't doing this to be generous. Rather, they looked at the reasons F2P players were leaving, thereby not spending money, and the sigil pain in the neckness topped the list.

Any money they might lose from sigils going away will be made up (and probably then some) by the boost in the number of people who stick around, buy higher level packs, refer friends to the game ("naw, those level sigil things are gone, thankfully..."), etc.

[Hokiewa]

A. The cost of the sigils generates revenue.
B. The cost of the sigils turns F2P players off, and as a result, they quit, which lowers revenue.

If (A>B) then (Leave Sigils In);
else (if B>A) then (Remove Sigils);


Pretty simple.

Yup, though I never thought they would remove them. Then again, I never thought they would every update water down the "difficulty" of the game.

[vVAnjilaVv]

The leveling sigil thing is quite easy to figure out.

With the implemetation to TR, it has much more of a chance to succeed if people are not required to repurchase sigils.

Not to mention this will keep many more F2P's hooked and I am sure make them much more prone to purchasing adventure packs now that there is no leveling obstruction.

IMO, leveling sigils were a joke, and should never have been implemented in the first place.

[Letrii]

I never saw why people got so annoyed at sigils, they are there to make money for Turbine.

[Rice]

I never saw why people got so annoyed at sigils, they are there to make money for Turbine.

Clearly a VIP or have gotten a sigil just when he needed to every time.

I have NEVER gotten a sigil as a end quest reward, and this was probably one of the best lines I've read in the notes. I understand the wanting to get money part, that's easy to understand, but the rate of players quitting because of this is probably higher than most people realize.

[Letrii]

Clearly a VIP or have gotten a sigil just when he needed to every time.

I have NEVER gotten a sigil as a end quest reward, and this was probably one of the best lines I've read in the notes. I understand the wanting to get money part, that's easy to understand, but the rate of players quitting because of this is probably higher than most people realize.

Actually I have bought most of my leveling sigils, never really saw it as an annoyance. Not like I was paying a normal subscription for game, there should be inconveniences for those that aren't paying.

[captain1z]

Clearly a VIP or have gotten a sigil just when he needed to every time.

I have NEVER gotten a sigil as a end quest reward, and this was probably one of the best lines I've read in the notes. I understand the wanting to get money part, that's easy to understand, but the rate of players quitting because of this is probably higher than most people realize.

while my account was premuim I went ahead and farmed the sigils I could and purchased the ones I could not for all but one of my characters. He sat at 16 and rottedas characters I just rolled coaght up to his level and passed him. Wasnt till the sigils went to 10 pts that I bought one for him, at a certain point they seem impossible to get.

very discouraging.

[Memnir]

It's a smart business decision, end of story.
I was never really sure why they were added in the first place, since content must still be purchased in order to be run. The sigils just seemed like an uncalled for roadblock, and was one of the foremost complaints I've seen from new players.

I just feel bad for those who bought them in the early days of EU...

[cdbd3rd]

When I dropped my boy's account to f2p, I made a char on it just to hunt sigils. Two chars, and both got a sigil by level 3. 'Course that would be the only loot I'd ever have luck with, go figure. :rolleyes: (tho true enough that I didn't stick with it long enough to try for silver+)


Meanwhile, I'll just be happy not seeing the questions/complaints about them clogging the Advice chats. Now that'll leave more room for debating whether gems are useful or not. :)

[Letrii]

When I dropped my boy's account to f2p, I made a char on it just to hunt sigils. Two chars, and both got a sigil by level 3. 'Course that would be the only loot I'd ever have luck with, go figure. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, I'll just be happy not seeing the questions/complaints about them clogging the Advice chats. Now that'll leave more room for debating whether gems are useful or not. :)

Now it will be full of people demanding compensation for old sigils.

[t0r012]

I haven't had any problems getting sigils. Only one time was a lvl 3 that had to make 37,000 runs of WW for her BWBs. Since it is set loot reward no sigils offered. but rand like 2 quests when done WW and pulled copper.

I haven't had any probs with silver either if anything my silvers came sooner than my coppers.

nice to know I won't have to worry about it any more though.

[Ggcpres]

while I have yet to find myself screwed out of leveling due to sigil issues (i've always gotten them as quest rewards before i hit cap) there very exsistance is a pain.

having to pay to level up strikes me, as most MMO players in general, as complete and total bull. If I earned the Xp then the ding should come naturaly given that leveling is such a natural part of any MMO.

Finding your self in a situation where you would have pay to level is similar to the feeling someone would get if they went out to eat and got charged extra for cutlery.

as a F2P I wish they would just do away with the asinine system in the first place.

and by asinine i am referring to both the definitions on Websters.

[Auran82]

Meanwhile, I'll just be happy not seeing the questions/complaints about them clogging the Advice chats. Now that'll leave more room for debating whether gems are useful or not. :)

I thought the advice and trade chats were for people to try to argue that the base value on an item has some kind of bearing on how much the item is worth.

[techknowannie]

I never saw why people got so annoyed at sigils, they are there to make money for Turbine.

well the sigils did not annoy me until after I downgraded to premium an found that I could no longer level my character because she was level 6 and never used a sigil at 4 because I was vip... ......could not buy one, find one, and I believe they even tried just applying one manually. nothing worked but going back to vip :mad:(weird bug apparently only a few people had trouble with)
I have since deleted the character and made sure I had all my characters sigils bought before going back to vip so that would not happen again.

so actually I kinda miffed that "now" their doing away with the sigils :rolleyes:

[adamkatt]

well the sigils did not annoy me until after I downgraded to premium an found that I could no longer level my character because she was level 6 and never used a sigil at 4 because I was vip... ......could not buy one, find one, and I believe they even tried just applying one manually. nothing worked but going back to vip :mad:(weird bug apparently only a few people had trouble with)
I have since deleted the character and made sure I had all my characters sigils bought before going back to vip so that would not happen again.

so actually I kinda miffed that "now" their doing away with the sigils :rolleyes:


I agree, i would like all tp spent on sigils back so i can used that wasted cash on adventure packs....

[Rumbaar]

Well smart business, You have plenty of FREE content at lower levels. Keeping Free or Premium players at lower levels does not generate the need for them to purchase the higher end content.

For a little loss of sigils I'm sure more will purchase high end content like quests and classes, etc.

[Kalari]

I think the most important thing we are forgetting that EU was a testing ground, they needed to know what worked and what did not. Sigils I heard some rumblings back in low level pugs about finding them used to see the lfm's for the runs for them and even helped some free to play guildies farm some.

I think they needed to see if free players were willing to invest in the game one way or the other, obviously their numbers showed it either frustrated players or was not needed thus why its being discontinued but thats what happens in beta even if this is a second beta for the game, things get tested if they fail they are axed.

I wont agree that I dont think it should have been implimented low levels had enough free content (my opinion) to where leveling should not have been much of a problem. I think the powers that be saw that heck people can get to 4 running all of Korthos island (including the slayers explorer area and all the quest n,h,e) then move onto the harbor and really explode in level. Vip's would see that and balk because people were not only getting up in levels but have tons of content at their finger tips and something had to give. Not sure how this applies to higher level sigils most of the people I dealt with finally just opted to go premium. So to me the sigils worked just not in the way people wanted them to.

[knightgf]

I agree, i would like all tp spent on sigils back so i can used that wasted cash on adventure packs....

Shame that you dont get refunds on anything you dont want or else I would probably remove Devil's Assault off my list of Dungeon Packs I own. And yet, ironically, the store offers things that only your character can use...well sadly, my character certainly could not use this at all...

Knowing them, they also would not simply look in everyone's purchased items list and give refunds to those who bought sigils. Just a theory,anyway...

[Cyr]

The leveling sigil thing is quite easy to figure out.

With the implemetation to TR, it has much more of a chance to succeed if people are not required to repurchase sigils.



Apparently it didn't take much to figure out something incorrect :P Leveling sigils were never required for TR's on live.

[Arculea]

The only Sigils I bought before prices dropped to 10 TP were 2 silver sigils,one for my main, another for a secondary char (and those 2 only, when the prices were reduced for one weekend, by 50% if I remember correctly)
Only after the price drop to 10 TP / sigil I bought sigils up to platin for all of my chars.
I can say one thing for sure...I would never have paid 150 TP for a gold sigil or 200 TP for a platin one (I wouldn´t even have bought them if there had been a price drop by 50%), but instead waited for them to drop as end reward of a quest.

[KualaBangoDango]

From my experience helping new players in Korthos, and reading in these forums as well as other gaming forums, leveling sigils was one of the most common topics mentioned, the most mis-understood, the least clearly explained, and caused the most frustration and anger. Not only was it greatly mis-understood, but it was a source of extreme frustration for new players who spent a lot of time farming sigils for a character only to find out their character was gimped in some way and they had to re-roll, level, and farm sigils all over again.

I was constantly seeing comments in other gaming forums by new players quitting DDO because they were level capped at 4 unless they paid money, that sigils were too hard to find, etc.

This was also one of the main reasons people who were interested in DDO decided not to try it out when they heard about the system.

As was mentioned before, it probably cost Turbine a lot more in lost potential players and revenue than what they were able to bring in by selling them.

[Halo_572]

I have NEVER gotten a sigil as a end quest reward

You must have been doing something seriously wrong then as I have always got the copper one on either the first harbour quest or easily before I needed it to level at 5.

I have no problem with the sigils going, I haven't made it to 9th yet on any character, but I have just levelled to 8th and will be getting to 9th hopefully after the next release. If not I will have to start another character until it does.

I also did wonder how I would get on with the silver sigil bearing in mind that if I did end up buying it the character could die and be deleted on their next adventure out.

[Yagi]

I think its probably a good idea. With sigils, f2p content was artificially recycled as people ran the same quests in to the ground to get them. With that barrier out of the way, players will be more motivated to buy packs as they level up and become high enough to give serious thoughts to accessing some fairly essential content.

Plus leveling quicker also puts them into level range for more f2p quests which help to introduce them to the game more then zerging harbour repeatedly to get past lvl 4 would.

Its a double edged sword, it fosters a bit of goodwill with the player who is obviously somewhat undecided if they were not willing to shell out for the low cost of a sigil by removing it as a speedbump entirely, and it allows them to get to levels where most of the lfm's are for paid content.

And it means more players spread out through more levels, some might say thats a bad thing, but it increases the chance of being exposed to new players who are fun to run with too.

[Yagi]

Apparently it didn't take much to figure out something incorrect :P Leveling sigils were never required for TR's on live.

I think he meant that unhampered leveling increases the chances of tr being purchased.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I think he meant that unhampered leveling increases the chances of tr being purchased.

That would be she, and yes that's what I meant :)

[fredericko]

I just feel bad for those who bought them in the early days of EU...

That shows some good insight on your side. Indeed, it really feels weird for all of us who spend tp on sigils, especially those, like me, who spent over 60 dollars as premium users (yeah, I would have spent less if I had gone VIP actually) and a good chunk of the tp we bought went into sigils.

I won't complain, though. After all, sigils going free means I will have to spend less dollars to level my toons from now on.