Post your PnP 3.5e build(s) here!!!

[Aspenor]

I made a long writeup of one of my favorites this weekend. Post your favorites here too!!

[Aspenor]

Post your favorite build, mine is a wizard, of course. It's my take on the Shadowcraft Mage aka The Killer Gnome created on the WotC boards some time ago by NineInchNail. I prefer not to abuse the Arcane Disciple (Luck) cheese which grants casting Miracle with the same casting time and components of Silent Image (i.e. no XP component).

This build requires the following books: Player's Handbook 3.5, Complete Mage, Races of Stone, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Underdark, Unearthed Arcana, Player's Guide to Eberron

Warning: This build is pretty much ****ing broken as hell, even without Arcane Disciple (Luck). It's often tough to get a DM to approve using two separate campaign settings as sources, but some are open to it. Heck, this whole build requires a lot of DM approval so don't get your hopes up. I used THREE flaws to gain THREE feats at first level! :eek:

This was an NPC in an old campaign of mine. He was the arch nemesis of the party and I used him to harry them and drive along the story. They were extremely powerful anyway, since I was running a high-magic optimized campaign. It was still fair (at later levels).

If I were to play this guy past 20, I would continue with Shadowcrafter levels to 10 and then Shadow Adept on to 10 if the campaign were to miraculously last that long.

Barawann Stonewhisperer
Translated from Gnomish, Barawann means "Shadow Illusionist"
Lawful Evil Gnome
Deity: Shar
32 points
3 Illusionist/4 Master Specialist/5 Shadowcraft Mage/1 Shadow Adept/7 Shadowcrafter

Ability Scores
STR - 6
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 18 --> +5 levels +5 tome +6 item = 34, effectively 36 with Spell cating prodigy
WIS - 12
CHA - 10
All level-ups go into INT

Important Skills
Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Disguise

Racial Characteristics
+2 Constitution, -2 Strength
Small: +1 Size Bonus to AC, +1 Size Bonus to-hit, +4 Bonus to Hide
Speed: 20 feet
Low-Light vision
+1 bonus to the DC of illusion spells cast
+1 bonus to attack rolls vs. kobolds and goblinoids
+4 Dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type
+2 Racial Bonus to craft(alchemy) checks
+2 Racial Bonus to Listen checks
Spell-like abilities - 1/day - speak with burrowing animals; a gnome with a charisma of at least 10 also has: 1/day - dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster Level 1st: save DC 10 + gnomes charisma modifier + spell level

Level Breakdown
1 - Illusionist - Feat: Spell Focus: Illusion; Flaw: Murky-Eyed - Spell Mastery: Silent Image; Flaw: Non-Combatant - Earth Sense; Flaw: Inattentive - Spellcasting Prodigy; Gnome Illusionist substitution level 1 (-1 CL to Transmutations); Illusion Specialist (ban Conjuration & Evocation); Chains of Disbelief
2 - Illusionist
3 - Illusionist- Feat: Heighten Spell
4 - Master Specialist - grants Skill Focus: Spellcraft
5 - Master Specialist - grants Expanded Spellbook
6 - Master Specialist - grants Greater Spell Focus: Illusion, Feat: Earth Spell
7 - Master Specialist - grants Minor School Esoterica: Illusion
8 - Shadowcraft Mage - grants Cloak of Shadow
9 - Shadowcraft Mage - grants Silent Illusion; Feat: Signature Spell: Silent Image
10 - Shadowcraft Mage - grants Shadow Illusion
11 - Shadowcraft Mage - grants Extended Illusion
12 - Shadowcraft Mage - grants Powerful Shadow Magic; Feat: Shadow Weave Magic
13 - Shadow Adept - grants Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic, Insidious Magic
14 - Shadowcrafter - grants Shadow Mien
15 - Shadowcrafter - grants enhanced Shadow Conjurations +10%; Feat: Mastery of Dreams
16 - Shadowcrafter - grants enhanced Shadow Evocations +10%
17 - Shadowcrafter - grants Shadow Spell Penetration +2
18 - Shadowcrafter - grants Resistance to Illusions; Feat: Spontaneous Divination
19 - Shadowcrafter - grants enhanced Shadow Conjurations +20%
20 - Shadowcrafter - grants enhanced Shadow Evocations +20%

Abilities and Game Term Definitions (in order of occurrence)
Spell Focus: Illusion - Grants +1 DC to spells cast of the illusion school
Flaw: Murky-Eyed - If an attack roll is made against a target with concealment, you must roll twice and take the worst outcome
Spell Mastery: Silent Image - You may prepare the spell Silent Image without a spellbook
Flaw: Non-combatant - you take a -2 penalty on all melee attack rolls
Earth Sense - if you are in contact with stone or the unfinished earth, you can sense all creatures within 30 feet that also are standing on it
Flaw: Inattentive - You take a -4 penalty to spot and listen checks
Spellcasting Prodigy - For purposes of spell casting DC's and bonus spells treat your primary casting statistic as 2 points higher.
Gnome Illusionist substitution level 1 - you may prepare and cast certain Illusion spells at a lower level than other spell casters. you suffer a -1 caster level penalty to spells from a school you can cast that manipulate matter (Transmutation, Conjuration, Evocation). You also use your wizard level as the caster level for racial spell-like abilities.
Illusion Specialist - You choose 2 schools of magic from which you will be unable to cast spells. In return you gain +1 spell learned every level from your chosen specialty school and +1 spell per spell level per day which must be prepared from your chosen specialty school.
Chains of Disbelief - Even if a viewer disbelieves and illusion cast by the character and communicates the details to other creatures, the other creatures do not receive the +4 bonus to disbelieve the illusory effect. Even if presented with incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real, a creature must still make a will save albeit with a +10 bonus. The illusionist gives up his level 1 wizard ability to obtain a familiar.
Shadow Shaper - The wizard gives up his wizard bonus feats. In exchange: at level 1 Hide is treated as a class skill for the illusionist. At level 5 the illusionist may add his intelligence modifier as well as dexterity to hide checks. At level 10 the save DC's of his illusions increases by 1. At level 15 the illusionist can hide in plain sight. At level 20 the illusionist gains permanent total concealment as if he were invisible. This build only benefits from the 1st level bonus due to only 3 wizard levels.
Heighten Spell - You can cast a spell as if it were a higher level spell than it actually is. For all purposes the heightened spell is treated as a spell of the level to which it is heightened.
Skill Focus: Spellcraft - You gain a bonus of +3 to your spellcraft skill.
Expanded Spellbook - You gain +1 spell learned from your chosen specialty school at this level.
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion - You gain a +1 bonus to the DC of spells cast from the Illusion school. This bonus stacks with Spell Focus.
Earth Spell - As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth you may use Heighten Spell to added effect. If you cast a spell using one spell slot higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as being two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on.
Minor School Esoterica: Illusion - Add +2 to the DC of all Illusion spells cast that have the entry Will: Disbelief in the save entry
Cloak of Shadow - grants 15% + 5%/ScM level permanent concealment, up to 40%
Silent Illusion - You may cast all Illusion spells as if using the Silent Spell feat
Signature Spell: Silent Image - you may spontaneously cast your chosen signature spell from any prepared spell slot.
Shadow Illusion - You augment your Illusion (figment) spells with Shadow magic. You may use figment spells to duplicate the effects of Shadow Evocation and Conjuration. The quasi-reality of the shadow figment is 10% per spell level of the used slot. This ability makes figments function as shadow conjurations and evocations except as previously noted.
Extended Illusion - All Illusion spells you cast are treated as if extended by the extend spell feat.
Powerful Shadow Magic - The quasi-reality spell strength of your shadow evocations and conjurations increases by 20%.
Shadow Weave Magic - Increases the spell DC of all illusions, enchantments, and necromancy spells you cast by 1. Increase the caster level for purposes of overcoming spell resistance by 1 for these schools as well.
Pernicious Magic - Your spells resist counterspell attempts by normal spell casters. They must succeed an 11+your spell's CL DC caster level check to counterspell a spell you are casting. Your ability to counterspell normal spell casters is impaired, you must succeed a DC 9+opposing caster's level caster level check to succeed a counterspell. This does not extend to spells from the schools of evocation or transmutation.
Tenacious Magic - Your spells resist being dispelled by normal magic users. The DC to dispel one of your spells is 15 + the spell's CL. This benefit does not extend to spells from the transmutation or evocation schools. You also have some difficulty dispelling spells from normal spell casters. You must overcome a DC of 13+opposing CL to successfully dispel a spell not from the illusion, necromancy, or enchantment schools.
Insidious Magic - Your spells are more difficult to detect by normal spell casters. On any attempt to use a divination, spell-like ability or magic item to detect the effects of your spells the caster must make a caster level check DC 11+your spell's CL to detect the effects of the spell. You must make a DC9+CL check to detect normal spell caster's spells via the same methods. This does not extend to spells of transmutation or evocation schools.
Shadow Mien - You gain +2 to bluff and hide checks.
Enhanced Shadow Conjurations - Your shadow conjuration effects gain the designated percentage quasi-reality spell power.
Mastery of Dreams - Your contact with the dream world gives you a bonus +1 DC to all illusions and enchantments.
Enhanced Shadow Evocations - Your shadow evocation effects gain the designated percentage quasi-reality spell power.
Resistance to Illusions - You gain +2 saving throw bonus against all illusion spells.
Spell Penetration - You gain a +2 bonus to caster level for purposes of penetrating a target's spell resistance.

Illusion DC
Maximum: 10 (base) + 10 (heightened to 9) + 12 (int modifier) + 1 (gnome) + 1 (spell focus) + 1 (Spell Casting Prodigy) + 1 (greater spell focus) + 2 (minor school esoterica) + 1 (Shadow Weave Magic) + 1 (Mastery of Dreams) = 40 DC

What can this little guy do?
Well, if I were to have taken Arcane Disciple: Luck at level 18, there pretty much would be nothing he couldn't do. It would make him simply superior at everything compared to everybody. Casting miracle with only a standard action and no XP component is preposterous. It makes him a better healer than a cleric, a better blaster than a sorcerer, and a better rogue than a rogue. Anyway, I avoid doing this for the aforementioned reasons. If I had done this on this guy, my players probably would have revolted violently.

What can he do? Still, I think a better question is "what can't he do?" Using shadow illusion, and silent he can blast with illusory fireballs and chain lightning. He can CC with illusory black tentacles and stinking cloud. Because he can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into Silent Image, he takes any spells he wants to at any level. He then, as needed, spontaneously converts the least needed spells into Silent Image. He heightens Silent Image to the needed spell slot, and enjoys the bonus DC and caster level from Earth Spell. He can cast Silent Image heightened to level 9 as a 10th level spell, and by doing so can cast illusory meteor swarms. He essentially becomes a spontaneously casting wizard with absurd caster level. He is extremely stealthy and well able to disguise himself and bluff his way through bad situations (and bluff in combat to hide).

I was really, really bored and made this over the weekend. Feel free to post similarly if you get bored and have time. I'll be adding some more builds soon (I think my dual 9th level casting wizard/druid might be next).

[GramercyRiff]

I pretty much stopped reading once you admitted to using three flaws on a freaking Wizard. :D

I'm very familiar with what a Shadowcraft Mage can do though, so I'm sure it's game imploding awesome. It's pretty much impossible for any Shadowcraft Mage to not be broken as hell. I did always like the fact that their illusions are more real than reality, but from a defying logic standpoint rather than an optimization standpoint. What I don't like about Shadowcraft Mages is that they are mostly blasters, and I hate blasting arcanists, as they make non casters irrelevant, which is no fun at all. YMMV of course.

I prefer arcanists to be the buffing, debuffing, controlling gods, existing on another level of reality, but allowing the mortals to take center stage.


As for builds, one of my favorite was a Warforged Mystic Wildshape Ranger/Juggernaut/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper. At the end, you're immune to everything including damage!:D Yep, you pretty much can't die. Sure it wasn't the most broken build ever, but it was fun, thematic, and...couldn't die! Yes, there were still ways to neutralize it...

I'll see if I can piece it back together; it's been a few years since I played it.

[Aspenor]

I pretty much stopped reading once you admitted to using three flaws on a freaking Wizard. :D

hahahaha yeah i usually don't use 'em much at all. But since this guy was meant to tackle a party of high-power optimized PC's with a lot of gear, I had to have him pack quite a punch. As a player I don't really mess with the flaws. My next couple build writeups won't have any.

In the works:
3 Wizard/3 Druid/10 Arcane Heirophant/4 Mystictheurge. Not really broken at all compared to the above SCM, but still sporting 9th level spells from both the wizard and druid spells lists, and some decent wildshape abilities to boot.
My DMM 20 cleric supporting melee/buffer/party face/turning build (which I'm playing right now)

FWIW, the SCM is only a blaster if played that way. He can still play the god role as well...just cast more shadow conjurations instead of evocations. like i said, the question isn't "what can he do," it's "what can't he do?"

[GramercyRiff]

hahahaha yeah i usually don't use 'em much at all. But since this guy was meant to tackle a party of high-power optimized PC's with a lot of gear, I had to have him pack quite a punch. As a player I don't really mess with the flaws. My next couple build writeups won't have any.

In the works:
3 Wizard/3 Druid/10 Arcane Heirophant/4 Mystictheurge. Not really broken at all compared to the above SCM, but still sporting 9th level spells from both the wizard and druid spells lists, and some decent wildshape abilities to boot.

FWIW, the SCM is only a blaster if played that way. He can still play the god role as well...just cast shadow conjurations instead of evocations.

Yes, Shadowcrafting certainly isn't relegated to blasting only, it's just that most I've encountered do, since they're so **** good at it. Like you posted in the build, the Shadowcraft Mage can do pretty much whatever the hell they want.

[Mairuku]

I created a samurai character using the Oriental Adventures version of the samurai class. After adding in feats and all that stuff, he had like a +7 or +8 to hit at level 1. He was a BAMF.

Mike/Mairuku/Amere

[captain1z]

I dont play pnp the way I play ddo. DDO I plan and I build, PNP my character grows and develops by way of the story that unfolds in front of him.

I may start off as a warrior, fighting on the frontier to hold back a horde of invaders and protect his city. Once the invaders have been repelled he may join a group in search of a lost treasure and be forced to sneak thier way through an underground drow fort. If he exhibited an apptitude for stealth & cunning the parties rogue may offer to take him as an apprentice.

After travelling for some time and having many adventures his restless soul might be calmed by the wisdom of a priest and after so much bloodshed he might dedicate himself to the sevrice of the gods and thier will, spending his remaining days as a paladin.

On paper that might be fighter 4/ rogue 3/ paladin 13 but it would not be planned and totally as a result of the story combined with the desires or the character (who tend to have personalities a bit different than my own). When we play, we try not to think about the rules.


My favorite character to date, the one I most identify with is an Elf fighter10/ wizard5. A very niave, curious wanderer, who is a fairly skilled werewolf hunter.

[Calebro]

I had a similar build to the OP with Beguiler instead.
Beguiler 13 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Shadow Adept 1 / Nightmare Spinner 1

But that wasn't my favorite. My favorite was a Monk 2 / Druid 8 / Sacred Fist 10

[Aspenor]

I created a samurai character using the Oriental Adventures version of the samurai class. After adding in feats and all that stuff, he had like a +7 or +8 to hit at level 1. He was a BAMF.

Mike/Mairuku/Amere

I like your sig. The most powerful character in existence, the chicken-infested commoner! Pun-pun? DROWN HIM IN CHICKENS.

[Mairuku]

I like your sig. The most powerful character in existence, the chicken-infested commoner! Pun-pun? DROWN HIM IN CHICKENS.

Ha ha ha. Be careful, I may be carrying the plauge!

Mike/Mairuku/Amere

[Arkat]

This is fairly old but I love it!

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870622/Hammer_of_Moradin_Handbook&post_num=47#338359686

[Lithic]

I moved across the country over 4 years ago and found a message board at a game shop that had a group looking for another player. Well long story short, I'm all ready to go to the first game with a new character I'd been thinking about for almost 2 weeks, and the DM gets an abrupt and messy divorce. Needless to say, I never went to a tabletop game again heh.

Anyway it was a human fighter/rogue specialized in daggers (both throwing and 2wf melee), which ignored things like DD, in favor of the stealth skills.

The reason my first character was a rogue is probably due to this character sitting unfullfilled in my PHB.

[GramercyRiff]

This is fairly old but I love it!

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870622/Hammer_of_Moradin_Handbook&post_num=47#338359686

High Five.

The Hammer of Moradin is certainly not among the most powerful builds/PrC's out there (this isn't to say it's weak by any means however), but it's chock full of fun ****.

EDIT: Boo. No sblocks. It makes posting a build much easier to read. Oh well.

[rimble]

Think my favorite was a Goliath Barbarian/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion. Was pretty absurd.

[GramercyRiff]

I had a similar build to the OP with Beguiler instead.
Beguiler 13 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Shadow Adept 1 / Nightmare Spinner 1

But that wasn't my favorite. My favorite was a Monk 2 / Druid 8 / Sacred Fist 10

I like the Beguiler version too; perhaps not better than the Wizard, but the Beguiler offers some cool stuff.

Monk gishes are fun as well. I never thought about mixing in Druid though, but it seems like it'd be fun. I used Cleric because of delicious Gouda cheese, er I mean DMM, and Divine Power + Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph via Greater Anyspell. I like your Druid version though.

[Calebro]

I like the Beguiler version too; perhaps not better than the Wizard, but the Beguiler offers some cool stuff.

Monk gishes are fun as well. I never thought about mixing in Druid though, but it seems like it'd be fun. I used Cleric because of delicious Gouda cheese, er I mean DMM, and Divine Power + Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph via Greater Anyspell. I like your Druid version though.

The Beguiler was a blast! Can you say ScM that's ALSO a skill monkey? Absolute blast!
The Sacred Fist was in a Pathfinder campaign.
In PF, Druids had an option to give up their animal companion to choose from among a few domains.
The Plant Domain's 1st level power (Fists of Thorns, or something like that....) added your caster level to damage on all unarmed attacks.

A Sacred Fist, with all the Druid goodies, with the Vow of Poverty, with a Flurry of Blows at 1d6+16+Str bare knuckled, before any buffs!
It was SICK!
Giving up 9th level spells was a no-brainer to me.

[GramercyRiff]

The Sacred Fist was in a Pathfinder campaign.
In PF, Druids had an option to give up their animal companion to choose from among a few domains.
The Plant Domain's 1st level power (Fists of Thorns, or something like that....) added your caster level to damage on all unarmed attacks.

A Sacred Fist, with all the Druid goodies, with the Vow of Poverty, with a Flurry of Blows at 1d6+18+Str bare knuckled, before any buffs!
It was SICK!
Giving up 9th level spells was a no-brainer to me.

The main problem I see with a Druid Sacred Fist is the lack of progressing Wildshape. I guess this isn't the end of the world with an item that helps progress Wildshape. I'm sure these exist but can't remember the name. Also, I'm just not a fan of Vow of Poverty mechanically. I love the concept and have played VoP characters, but I don't like the way it progresses. You give up way too much for what you get, when you get it.

Also, Sacred Fist advances spellcasting at all 10 levels if you go by text trumping table. So your build could have 9th level spells using this interpretation.

[Temet]

Favorite? I don't know about that to be honest, but my last build was a Mailman Sorc making use of Searing Spell, the feat that removes CL caps on spells, lesser Orb of Fire, Arcane Spellsurge, and Arcane Fusion to deal thousands of damage a round. Was amusing for a bit, but the DM who was running the game hadn't realized what he was in for when he asked for level 20 characters.

Might dig up some character sheets later and post em, we'll see.

[Calebro]

The main problem I see with a Druid Sacred Fist is the lack of progressing Wildshape. I guess this isn't the end of the world with an item that helps progress Wildshape. I'm sure these exist but can't remember the name. Also, I'm just not a fan of Vow of Poverty mechanically. I love the concept and have played VoP characters, but I don't like the way it progresses. You give up way too much for what you get, when you get it.

Also, Sacred Fist advances spellcasting at all 10 levels if you go by text trumping table. So your build could have 9th level spells using this interpretation.

He still got 1 wild shape fairly early on, and some more later (last handful of levels)
I wasn't too worried about it, as I was planning on playing a cleric Sacred Fist first, but then saw the Druid Domain option, so really I was gaining by going Druid, not losing.
VoP was more for flavor, befitting the character, than for power.

And no, my DM only allowed the table, as I was already overpowered compared to the other characters in the campaign. I didn't complain. He was too much fun to complain about anything, really. :D

[Xyfiel]

Drow 6wiz/4rogue/10Arcane Trickster
with optional 5/4/10/1pale master

Kinda similiar to my main being TR shortly to a 17wiz/1rog/2monk pale master...

[Aspenor]

heh, i don't know how i forgot this one, my 20 Artificer. Looks like I have a few builds to work on.

Warforged artificers, for the win.

The 1-2 punch of my artificer with my friend's fighter/warforged juggernaut was a real sight to behold.

[Mairuku]

The highest leveled character I ever had was a level 15 druid. Now, not only were his stats and weapons great, which made him BAMF as it was, but, wild shape + natural spell is supremely messed up when you have numerous Monster Manuals to look through and your DM doesn't care if you've seen the animal/beast before.

You ever seen a Dire Rhino cast arc lightning while running full speed?

Mike/Mairuku/Amere

[SquelchHU]

I pretty much stopped reading once you admitted to using three flaws on a freaking Wizard. :D

I'm very familiar with what a Shadowcraft Mage can do though, so I'm sure it's game imploding awesome. It's pretty much impossible for any Shadowcraft Mage to not be broken as hell. I did always like the fact that their illusions are more real than reality, but from a defying logic standpoint rather than an optimization standpoint. What I don't like about Shadowcraft Mages is that they are mostly blasters, and I hate blasting arcanists, as they make non casters irrelevant, which is no fun at all. YMMV of course.

I prefer arcanists to be the buffing, debuffing, controlling gods, existing on another level of reality, but allowing the mortals to take center stage.

/boggle

You do realize you have that exactly backwards right?

If an arcanist is blasting, you can completely ignore them unless you are many levels lower. Even more so than you can ignore non casters, who at least manage more than 1d6 a level save half assuming no resists if built even remotely sensibly.

If an arcanist is doing anything else, in particular 'buffing, debuffing, controlling gods who exist on another level of reality' they win fights super easy, and the other guys don't have a chance.

Here are a few examples of this in action. Some are my characters, some are other people's characters.

Wizard. And by Wizard I mean Wizard/Master Abjurer/Abjurant Champion. I don't remember the exact breakdown, but the total levels added up to 18. The build starts with the basic principle that arcane casters have the highest defenses in the game across the board, and then rubs it in by specializing in it.

Full attack? Miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss.

Spell? Save on a 2, reroll natural 1s.

Still not good enough? Don't be there when it hits.

Anything gets through all the miss chances, saves, rerolls, immunities, and whatever else and kills him? He pops back to life immediately. About the only way to keep him dead is to kill him around 3 or 4 times in the same combat... good luck with that. Hell, just finding him is a challenge... not a lot beats Superior Invisibility + Silent Spell.

Hint: Unless your game is extremely high powered, you should not allow Craft Contingent Spell. I could have done even worse with Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Another Wizard. This one actually had quite a few levels of Wizard, with some Archmage mixed in. His thing was finding the easy button to dismantle an encounter instantly. Enemy has over 200 HP, mettle, evasion, saves in the 30s? He 1 rounds it anyways. Enemy is 5 levels higher and easily capable of 1 rounding any one of the party? He 1 rounds it before it gets a turn.

Course it's not enough to know how to kill, knowing where to find it also helps. The proper divinations ensure the proper preparations are made, and there are so few defenses against these they serve as a very easy means of steamrolling adventures. And of course there are spells that win the fight in one move at all levels, you just have to pick the right one if the enemies are strong, otherwise they will save on a 2. If all their saves (Fort, Will. Ref can be ignored as it's just minor damage) are like that, use a No Save, I Win ability.

Spontaneous Divination was the key to success here.

Of course awesomeness is by no means limited to arcane casters, I've seen some Clerics and Druids tear it up as well, along with Artificers and various other casting classes. Non casters are unfortunately limited in this respect, as even if you do 300+ damage and 10 negative levels a round every round, good luck getting to utilize that.

[Aspenor]

This one is a thematic build, primarily focused on Wildshape/Polymorph/Alter Self/Shapechange. Definitely not a supreme powerhouse, but still a pretty strong force to be reckoned with.

Samuel Forestfriend
Neutral Good Human
32 Points
Deity: Ehlonna
3 Transmuter Domain Wizard/3 Druid/10 Arcane Heirophant/4 Mystic Theurge

Ability Scores
STR - 8 ---> Mostly irrelevant when you spend all day in wildshape, polymorph or shapechange
DEX - 10 ---> Mostly irrelevant when you spend all day in wildshape, polymorph or shapechange
CON - 14 ---> +6 Enhancement = 18
INT - 18 ---> +3 Increases, +6 Enhancement, +5 Tome = 32
WIS - 16 ---> +2 Increases, +6 Enhancement, +5 Tome = 28
CHA - 8

Important Skills
Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Handle Animal

Leveling Breakdown
1 - Wizard - Spell Focus: Transmutation; Spell Focus: Conjuration Combat Wizard Variant: Improved Initiative; Banned Schools: Enchantment and Necromancy
2 - Wizard -
3 - Druid - Companion Spellbond
4 - Wizard - +1 INT
5 - Druid -
6 - Druid - Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
7 - Mystic Theurge -
8 - Mystic Theurge - +1 WIS
9 - Arcane Heirophant - Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)
10 - Arcane Heirophant -
11 - Arcane Heirophant -
12 - Arcane Heirophant - Natural Spell
13 - Arcane Heirophant -
14 - Arcane Heirophant -
15 - Arcane Heirophant - Minor Shapeshift
16 - Arcane Heirophant - +1 WIS
17 - Arcane Heirophant -
18 - Arcane Heirophant - Spell Penetration
19 - Mystic Theurge -
20 - Mystic Theurge - +1 INT

Definitions of Terms
Combat Wizard Variant - You give up scribe scroll and your wizard bonus feat list for the fighter's bonus feat list and a bonus feat at 1st level. You still can only take your other bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels.
Improved Initiative - you gain a +4 bonus to initiative
Companion Spellbond - allows you to share spells with your animal companion at a range of 30 feet instead of 5
Practiced Spellcaster - increases your caster level of the chosen class by up to 4, capped at your hit dice. This feat does not grant caster levels for purposes of determining spells known or new spell levels.
Natural Spell - You may cast spells while Wildshaped. Requires the Wildshape class feature.
Minor Shapeshift - As long as you have a polymorph spell of 4th level or higher available to cast, you may spend a swift action to gain one of the following benefits:
Might - +2 bonus on melee damage rolls
Mobility - +2 competence bonus on balance, climb, jump and swim checks.
Savagery - Primary claw attack dealing 1d6 points of damage (assuming medium size).
Speed - +5 foot enhancement bonus to any one movement mode you already possess
Vigor - Temporary hit points equal to your HD.
The bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the highest level polymorph spell you have available at the time. If you activate another ability while a previous one is still in effect, the first effect ends. You also gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting polymorph spells.
Spell Penetration - you gain a +2 bonus to all caster level checks for purposes of overcoming spell resistance

What does Sam do?
Sam started his adventuring career as a hedge-wizard, living in the forest and practicing arcane magic. He was primarily interested in manipulating the physical world, including his person. His interest in the natural world around him caused him to begin learning druidic magic. Soon he was learning both simultaneously as he studied his natural surroundings and how matter interacts with itself. He learned to turn himself into animals and plants with natural druidic talent. He could turn himself, or others, into nearly anything else he saw with the arcane arts.

This build, after 8th level, can melee, cast spells, and heal itself. Utilizing wildshape, alter self, polymorph, and eventually shapechange it is a master of both disguise and physical power. At the end of the progression, you end up with 9th level druid and wizard spells, the wildshaping ability of a 13th level druid, and insane power from the polymorph spells. Of course, you could always be a nice guy and polymorph your allies instead to let them do your dirty work. You will also be strong with your conjurations for battlefield control.

[GramercyRiff]

/boggle

You do realize you have that exactly backwards right?

If an arcanist is blasting, you can completely ignore them unless you are many levels lower. Even more so than you can ignore non casters, who at least manage more than 1d6 a level save half assuming no resists if built even remotely sensibly.

If an arcanist is doing anything else, in particular 'buffing, debuffing, controlling gods who exist on another level of reality' they win fights super easy, and the other guys don't have a chance.


Did you actually read what I posted? I stated I don't like blasting arcanists, but have encountered a lot of blasting ScM's (if you read my next post, this is clear). I prefer the god arcanists, as they get so much more with their actions. God arcanists rarely kill things themselves. They enable the party to lay waste to the enemy with impunity.

[Aspenor]

Did you actually read what I posted?

No, he probably didn't.

[GramercyRiff]

Aspenor, how can you take Natural Spell at level 3 (Druid 1)? You don't have the Wildshape ability yet, so don't qualify for the feat. What am I missing?

[Aspenor]

Aspenor, how can you take Natural Spell at level 3 (Druid 1)? You don't have the Wildshape ability yet, so don't qualify for the feat. What am I missing?

lol you know, thanks for pointing that out. the original breakdown on my .txt doc had it at level 9 and I just had a brain fart and swapped it lower after posting it. Fixed.

[SquelchHU]

Did you actually read what I posted? I stated I don't like blasting arcanists, but have encountered a lot of blasting ScM's (if you read my next post, this is clear). I prefer the god arcanists, as they get so much more with their actions. God arcanists rarely kill things themselves. They enable the party to lay waste to the enemy with impunity.

You: What I don't like about Shadowcraft Mages is that they are mostly blasters, and I hate blasting arcanists, as >they make non casters irrelevant, which is no fun at all<.

Also you: I prefer arcanists to be the buffing, debuffing, controlling gods, existing on another level of reality, but allowing the mortals to take center stage.

So how is it 1d6 damage a level * about oh... 1.2 or so makes the non casters irrelevant, but ending the fight in one move does not? If quasi reality goes higher than 120% it doesn't go much higher, and it certainly does not go up by the 500% or more required to turn 1d6 a level into a significant amount of damage.

I'm not disputing Shadowcraft Mages are awesome in the slightest. But Evocation with a bit less suck still has plenty of suck. Exceptions being those rare spells tagged as Evocation that do something more than 1d6/level damage, such as Contingency and the infamous Miracle. I think Forcecage also landed in there somehow.

[Aspenor]

I think he meant it makes the other players "feel" irrelevant. "God" builds usually revolve around making the other players feel like they are contributing, whereas evokers are supposed to "steal the show" (whether they actually do so being another matter entirely).

Of course, the above build basically will make the others feel irrelevant, because it will, with Wildshape and Polymorph/Shapechange do the other characters' roles, and better.

[toughguyjoe]

Coming Soon: Human Wizard2/Sorcerer3/Ultimate Magus 10

[KKDragonLord]

Oh... this thread is dangerous for me... i spent many sleepless nights making cool yet viable builds... in the end i rarely ever had a chance to use them, as usually i was the DM not the player. (and quite a few were eccentric :p)

Might elaborate a bit later on:


Drake Dragnarok (Half-Dragon fighter/Battle Sorcer/Eldritch Knight)
Str 2º 18
Con 1º 18
Dex 4º 10
Int 5º 10
Wis 6º 8
Cha 3º 15 (17)[18/19/20/21/22]
Saves
Lvl/Class/HD(Ecl) FullHP Bab Spell Lvl Spells Known XP: F/R/W Feats:
1/Fightr1/1 14 (10+4) 1 (5) - - 0 2/0/0 (6/0/-1) Dragon Wings, Dragon Tail, Multiattack
1/HfDrgn1/1(2) 15 (+1) 1\-2 (6\1) - - 1k - (7/0/-1)
2/BtlSor1/2(3) 24 (4+5) 1\-2 (6\1) 1st 3/1 3k 2/0/2 (7/0/1)
3/BtlSor2/3(4) 34 (5+5) 2\-1 (7\2) 1st 4/1 6k 2/0/3 (7/0/2) Battle Caster
3/HfDrgn2/3(5) 34 (-) 2\0\0 (8\6\6) - - 10k -
3/HfDrgn3/3(6) 34 (-) 2\0\0 (10\8\8) - - 15k -
4/BtlSor3/4(7) 43 (4+5) 3\1\1 (11\9\9) 1st 4/2 21k 3/1/3 (8/1/2)
5/BtlSor4/5(8) 53 (5+5) 4\2\2 (12\10\10) 2nd 5/2/1 28k 3/1/4 (8/1/3)
6/BtlSor5/6(9) 62 (4+5) 4\2\2 (12\10\10) 2nd 5/3/1 36k 3/1/4 (8/1/3) Dragon Breath
7/BtlSor6/7(10) 72 (5+5) 5\3\3 (13\11\11) 3rd 6/3/2/1 45k 4/2/5 (9/2/4)
8/Eknght1/8(11) 80 (3+5) 6/1\4\4 (14/9\12\12) - - 55k 6/2/7 (11/2/6) Quicken Breath
9/Eknght2/9(12) 89 (4+5) 7/2\5\5 (15/10\13\13) 3rd 6/4/2/1 66k 7/2/8 (12/2/7) Improved Wings
10/Ekgt3/10(13) 97 (3+5) 8/3\6\6 (16/11\14\14) 4th 7/4/2/1/1 77k 7/3/8 (12/3/7)
11/Ekgt4/11(14) 106 (4+5) 9/4\7\7 (17/12\15\15) 4th 7/4/3/2/1 89k 8/3/9 (13/3/8)
12/Ekgt5/12(15) 114 (3+5) 10/5\8\8 (18/13\16\16) 5th 8/4/3/2/1/1 102k 8/3/9 (13/3/8) Improved Flight
13/Ekgt6/13(16) 123 (4+5) 11/6/1\9\9 (19/14/9\17\17) 5th 8/4/4/3/2/1 116k 9/4/10 (14/4/9)
14/Ekgt7/14(17) 131 (3+5) 12/7/2\10\10 (20/15/10\18\18) 6th 8/4/4/3/2/1/1 131k 9/4/10 (14/4/9)
15/Ekgt8/15(18) 140 (4+5) 13/8/3\11\11 (21/16/11\19\19) 6th 8/4/4/3/3/2/1 147k 10/4/11 (15/4/10) Awaken Spell Resistance
16/Ekgt9/16(19) 148 (3+5) 14/9/4\12\12 (22/17/12\20\20) 7th 8/4/4/3/3/2/1/1 166k 10/5/11 (15/5/10)
17/Ekt10/17(20) 157 (4+5) 15/10/5\13\13 (23/18/13\21\21) 7th 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/1 183k 11/5/12 (16/5/11)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18/Bsor7/18(21) 166 (4+5) 16/11/6/1\14\14 (24/19/14\22\22) 8th 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/1/1 219k 11/5/12 (16/5/11) Awaken Dragon Fear
19/BSor8/19(22) 176 (5+5) 17/12/7/2\15\15 (25/20/15\23\23) 8th 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/2/1 237k 12/6/13 (17/6/12)
20/BSor9/20(23) 185 (4+5) 17/12/7/2\15\15 (25/20/15\23\23) 9th 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/2/1/1 256k 12/6/13 (17/6/12)

Spell List

0Lvl(8)
Detect Magic(*)
Read Magic(*)
Ghost Sound(*)
Launch Bolt(*)
Mage Hand(*)
Prestidigitation(*)
Stick(*)
Message(*)

1Lvl
Disguise Self
Shield
Magic Missle
Know Protections

2Lvl
(Wraithstrike)
Invisibility
False Life
Mirror Image
Whirling Blade

3Lvl
Dispel Magic
Lightning Bolt
Haste

4Lvl
Stoneskin
Polymorph
Bestow Curse

5Lvl
Teleport
Shadow Evocation
Greater Blink

6Lvl
True Seeing
Antimagic Field

7Lvl
Bigby´s Grasping Hand
Spell Turning

8Lvl
Iron Body

9lvl
Shades

darn, i made my builds in the notepad, as i expected the tabs didnt work so well here, hope its possible to glean enough information to understand it a bit. I made a tiny modification to it that would allow me to get a racial feat instead of a bonus fighter feat as an Eldricht Knight

[GramercyRiff]

You: What I don't like about Shadowcraft Mages is that they are mostly blasters, and I hate blasting arcanists, as >they make non casters irrelevant, which is no fun at all<.

Also you: I prefer arcanists to be the buffing, debuffing, controlling gods, existing on another level of reality, but allowing the mortals to take center stage.


Mortals = non casters. Aspenor understood where I was coming from...


I think he meant it makes the other players "feel" irrelevant. "God" builds usually revolve around making the other players feel like they are contributing, whereas evokers are supposed to "steal the show" (whether they actually do so being another matter entirely).



It isn't that non casters are actually relevant in relation to god arcanists, non casters are still irrelevant in the grand scheme of things; ie the god arcanist's transcendent existence. They aren't in the god arcanist's higher level of reality. The god arcanist enables non casters to be relevant in their lower level of reality.

EDIT: To try to be a bit more clear, blasting is a sub optimal choice regardless of the damage you can deal. I've never made a blaster caster and never will. As I stated in a previous post, you get so much more from the other spells. The only good direct damage dealing spells are those that have debuff or controlling riders. That is all.

[SquelchHU]

Mortals = non casters. Aspenor understood where I was coming from...




It isn't that non casters are actually relevant in relation to god arcanists, non casters are still irrelevant in the grand scheme of things; ie the god arcanist's transcendent existence. They aren't in the god arcanist's higher level of reality. The god arcanist enables non casters to be relevant in their lower level of reality.

EDIT: To try to be a bit more clear, blasting is a sub optimal choice regardless of the damage you can deal. I've never made a blaster caster and never will. As I stated in a previous post, you get so much more from the other spells. The only good direct damage dealing spells are those that have debuff or controlling riders. That is all.

Now all you have to do is get that when God snaps his fingers and wins the encounter, that's not letting the mortals participate, that is ensuring they cannot so they don't hurt themselves.

Aspenor is simply trolling me, so I am ignoring him.

[Aspenor]

Now all you have to do is get that when God snaps his fingers and wins the encounter, that's not letting the mortals participate, that is ensuring they cannot so they don't hurt themselves.

Aspenor is simply trolling me, so I am ignoring him.

I've asked you before, I'll ask you again: let's see your "snaps his fingers and wins the encounter" spells. Instead of just rambling on without making any evidence for your arguments, say something worthwhile for a change.

Let's see the proof that you actually know what you're talking about, instead of just "trolling" people having a constructive discussion (you are the troll, not I, in this situation). Every time you enter a PnP thread, you start talking down to people like you know something other people don't. Guess what? You're not special.

[Gercho]

To get back in topic, i know that casters are overpowered on 3.5 and earlier versions, fortunately, in our group, there wherent people that made casters so powerfull that other chars where irrelevant, so my favourite char for 3.5 was a Half Dragon fighter, i dont really remember the stats, i remember i made my own prestige class that made him progress on his ratial habilities.

Other char that i remember fondly was a tiefling wizard (i think that was on 2nd edition) i played on planescape, we never got to high level, cause we made a set of rules to play with childs with nerfed abilities, at the end of that campaing we got to lvl 1 :D, we even invented our own lvl 0 spells.

Oh, i played an elf paladin on a lotr setting we adapted for D&D too, that was great aswell.

So, we really messed with the rules a lot, but at least we kept everyone relevant most of the time.

[Aspenor]

Since I have the time, I'll review a few spells and show why they aren't "snap your fingers and end the encounter and everybody else feels useless." There are only a few spells for which this is the case.

I will only reference core spells, because they are the ones that are available for use in all games.

Level 1:
Grease, the ultimate level 1 "encounter ender:"
Yes, you just knocked up to 4 enemies to the floor, dropped their AC by 4, and made them flat-footed when they stand up. Somebody has to do the mop-up, and the direct damage done by the rest of the party makes them feel "relevant."

Enlarge Person
Increase your BSF's damage dice and reach. Watch him tear through everything. BSF feels relevant (see the kill count mechanic in DDO to see why).

Ray of Enfeeblement
Only works on one target, but great if you're in an encounter with only one big enemy. The rest of the party gets to feel relevant as they do hit point damage.

Level 2:
Web
Yes, everything is entangled, suffers from cover looking out, and movement has been reduced. Again, somebody still kill them. That's what the mortals are for. They still feel relevant (whether they are is a different matter).

Glitterdust
You just blinded a large group for a long time. Again, somebody has to clean up. Let the rogue have his fun rolling d6's. Again, the rest of the party "feels" relevant.

Level 3:
Sleet Storm
Once again, you've rendered everything harmless. Somebody has to kill, again.

Stinking Cloud
See above. Not very good on hardy opponents, though.

Slow
Again, see above. Enemies are harmless. Let the mortals have their fun and feel relevant.

Haste
The rest of the party kills everything. You cast the spell that won the encounter, but they feel like they did the work.

Ray of Exhaustion
See Ray of Enfeeblement.

Level 4
Polymorph
Okay, I'll grant that this spell makes everybody else in the party feel completely useless.

Solid Fog
Mostly used for divide and conquer tactics. Your party still feels like they did something.

Evard's Black Tentacles
See most of the above spells. Party still feels relevant, you won the encounter though.

Enervation
Again, see Ray of Enfeeblement.

Level 5
Telekinesis
Situational, but hey, you can grapple incorporeals. Somebody has to mop up though.

Wall of Stone
Another divide and conquer spell. Somebody still has to mop up, thus making them feel relevant.

Magic Jar
This one might make everybody else feel irrelevant if abused. This spell effectively makes the spellcaster invincible.

Level 6
This level is pretty low on the power scale, really, but at least it has:
Planar Binding
Bind an efreeti and compel him to cast wish to raise your intelligence. Probably a bad idea if your DM is the type to get upset over these types of things.

Level 7
Reverse Gravity
I know, I know. You just pressed the "haha I win" button, no save. Everybody else feels relevant because they get to range stuff to death.

Statue
Essentially day-long stoneskin. Not an offensive power but nice defensively.

Waves of Exhaustion
Nice debuff. Somebody has to do the killing.

Level 8
Maze
Another nice divide and conquer spell with no save. Somebody still has to do the conquering.

Polymorph any Object
Make your allies into other stuff that kicks ass. They still feel like they did something because they were rolling the dice!

Level 9
Shapechange
See polymorph, only make the rest of the party feel even worse about themselves.

Time Stop
Very nice, but used in conjunction with battlefield control and buffing you still let the rest of the party feel relevant.

Conclusion
All in all, the vast majority of strong spells still leave the rest of the party doing something to justify their existence in their own mind. Interestingly enough, most of the ones that don't are self buffs of the Polymorph variety.

You can say that a wizard "snaps his fingers and ends the encounter" but that isn't exactly true. The encounter may be EFFECTIVELY over but the rest of the party gets to do some hit point damage and feel like they are contributing.

[GramercyRiff]

First off, in any discussion about 3.5 Wizards (or any Tier 1 class) it's a given that they're supremely overpowered in relation to everything else. This is quite obvious even on a fundamental level.


Now all you have to do is get that when God snaps his fingers and wins the encounter, that's not letting the mortals participate, that is ensuring they cannot so they don't hurt themselves.


This is just another way of saying what I did a few posts ago but with a different connotation.

I very much realize that Wizards win encounters by themselves. That should be clear by now, but for you it's still not (actually I think it is clear to you, but you like to argue with anyone, even if they share your viewpoint).

This has degenerated into semantics and perception, so it's pointless to continue.

We both agree that Wizards are supremely powerful. It's not hard to realize this. So there's nothing left here to discuss.

[KKDragonLord]

First off, in any discussion about 3.5 Wizards (or any Tier 1 class) it's given that they're supremely overpowered in relation to everything else. This is quite obvious even on a fundamental level.

This is just another way of saying what I did a few posts ago but with a different connotation.

I very much realize that Wizards win encounters by themselves. That should be clear by now, but for you it's not.

This has degenerated into semantics and perception, so it's pointless to continue.

We both agree that Wizards are supremely powerful. It's not hard to realize this. So there's nothing left here to discuss.

My Half-Dragon battle-sorcerer could kick your godly asses all by himself.
Anti-Magic Field and you are all a bunch of hairless monkeys, while i, am still a dragon =p

[GramercyRiff]

My Half-Dragon battle-sorcerer could kick your godly asses all by himself.
Anti-Magic Field and you are all a bunch of hairless monkeys, while i, am still a dragon =p

You act as if you could even touch a Wizard.:D

I didn't read all your build as it's not easy with the current format. However, I did notice you don't have Abjurant Champion, a mistake to be sure. One of the fundamental aspects of any arcane gish build is get those five levels of Abjurant Champion.

[Aspenor]

My Half-Dragon battle-sorcerer could kick your godly asses all by himself.
Anti-Magic Field and you are all a bunch of hairless monkeys, while i, am still a dragon =p

Except right after you activate your Antimagic Field, I cast a Gate to an elemental plane of an element to which you are not immune 15 feet above your head and laugh maniacally as lava, ice, or stone falls through the gate onto you.

Rocks fall. You die.

[KKDragonLord]

You act as if you could even touch a Wizard.:D

I didn't read all your build as it's not easy with the current format. However, I did notice you don't have Abjurant Champion, a mistake to be sure. One of the fundamental aspects of any arcane gish build is get those five levels of Abjurant Champion.

yeah i would have added those if it weren't for my self imposed limits:
1)Always take any PrC to the fullest
2)Avoid taking more than 1 PrC

I always felt like dipping too much was way too cheesy for a RPG

My DMs tended to agree as well... even then, convincing them to let me play a Half-dragon was always a losing battle.

As for touching wizards, natural flying always helps.

This character specialty is flying in mithral full plate swinging a greatsword about with a native score of 30 Str making 6 attacks without haste.

[Jiipster]

This is without a doubt my most favorite build ever, simply due to the fact that it's a frakking two-headed antropomorphic giant squid! (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Octoman_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build))

[GramercyRiff]

yeah i would have added those if it weren't for my self imposed limits:
1)Always take any PrC to the fullest
2)Avoid taking more than 1 PrC

i always felt like dipping too much was way too cheesy for a RPG

My DMs tended to agree as well... even then, convincing them to let me play a Half-dragon was always a losing battle.

Abjurant Champion 5 isn't a dip. It's taking all the levels of a PrC.

Give me Abjurant Champion 5 over Eldritch Knight 10 any day if I'm a Battle Sorcerer and limited to one PrC. Battle Sorcerers are 3/4 BAB after all.

YMMV, but anything beyond LA +1 that isn't the Saint Template is too much of a restriction. There might be other exceptions, but Half Dragon doesn't do it for me.



As for touching wizards, natural flying always helps.

This character specialty is flying in mithral full plate swinging a greatsword about with a native score of 30 Str making 6 attacks without haste.

I'm definitely not knocking your build by saying you can't touch a Wizard. I like your build (though I personally couldn't handle the LA +3) from what I can decipher from the formatting. The formatting does kinda make my eyes bleed a little.:D

[GramercyRiff]

This is without a doubt my most favorite build ever, simply due to the fact that it's a frakking two-headed antropomorphic giant squid! (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Octoman_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build))

LMAO

That is awesome.

[Jiipster]

LMAO

That is awesome.

The Antropomorphic-template usually leads to intresting builds. Once had a mate of mine play an antropomorphic blue whale fighter, who wore a monocle and a top hat and fought with an anchor.

[KKDragonLord]

Abjurant Champion 5 isn't a dip. It's taking all the levels of a PrC.

Give me Abjurant Champion 5 over Eldritch Knight 10 any day if I'm a Battle Sorcerer and limited to one PrC. Battle Sorcerers are 3/4 BAB after all.

YMMV, but anything beyond LA +1 that isn't the Saint Template is too much of a restriction. There might be other exceptions, but Half Dragon doesn't do it for me.

I have considered it ofc, i made some serious math and there was always something that stopped me from getting it early enough.

Sadly though the Abjurant Champion was always seen as being so broken no DM ever alowed me to take it.

But if i ever got to play epic levels i would certainly go with AC for the last 3 until i hit 20 and take the other 2 on epic.

[GramercyRiff]

The Antropomorphic-template usually leads to intresting builds. Once had a mate of mine play an antropomorphic blue whale fighter, who wore a monocle and a top hat and fought with an anchor.

:rofl:, dude, you're killing me.


I have considered it ofc, i made some serious math and there was always something that stopped me from getting it early enough.

Sadly though the Abjurant Champion was always seen as being so broken no DM ever alowed me to take it.

But if i ever got to play epic levels i would certainly go with AC for the last 3 until i hit 20 and take the other 2 on epic.

That's too bad that AC is deemed broken. It's obviously overpowered, but I don't consider it broken.

[Aspenor]

Sadly though the Abjurant Champion was always seen as being so broken no DM ever alowed me to take it.

I have nearly given up on playing anything in an actual game that I've been posting here. The only other guy in my group that will DM is a bit paranoid and uninformed. Anything that's not from a core 3.5 book he is scared of. Just recently, he whined for half an hour when the druid did 52 damage in a round with his natural weapons in polar bear form, and that's core.

We are level 8, by the way.

[SquelchHU]

I've asked you before, I'll ask you again: let's see your "snaps his fingers and wins the encounter" spells. Instead of just rambling on without making any evidence for your arguments, say something worthwhile for a change.

Let's see the proof that you actually know what you're talking about, instead of just "trolling" people having a constructive discussion (you are the troll, not I, in this situation). Every time you enter a PnP thread, you start talking down to people like you know something other people don't. Guess what? You're not special.

Considering that your idea of participating in a combat is entering the battlefield after the combat is over and slitting the throats of the defeated enemies who cannot fight back (and when they enter too soon, they tend to die very quickly) it is quite safe to ignore any and all of your claims, much as no one would take someone seriously who sat down at a chess table after the last move was made and claimed they were the winner and not the person who had actually made the winning moves.

Now I expected someone like you to be more knowledgeable of casters than this. Instead what you have done is got most of it wrong, then tried to give out negative rep when this was illustrated to you. That puts you in the same category as the others. Particularly since you first got between me and him with a baiting remark 'No, he didn't (read).'

Now as for me, I am not special and I have not claimed to be. As far as I am concerned, this is all very basic, which is why it is a given that anyone should be able to understand it, even if they don't like it. The talking down doesn't start until after the 2 + 2 = 37 arguments start. At that point it is entirely warranted.


My Half-Dragon battle-sorcerer could kick your godly asses all by himself.
Anti-Magic Field and you are all a bunch of hairless monkeys, while i, am still a dragon =p

Anti magic field is a joke spell. Reason? 10 foot radius, centered on you.

You are now a spellcaster sans spells. The caster 15 feet away is completely unimpeded, and since you kindly cut all your stats in half by removing your buffs and item benefits, and there are spells that can attack through an anti magic field all you have done is set yourself up for a one hit kill.

Now it certainly is possible for a gish to do it but that requires a far better chassis than 'half dragon battle sorcerer' and a far better strategy than self nerfing. It also essentially boils down to be a better caster, but that should not surprise anyone.

[Aspenor]

Instead what you have done is got most of it wrong

Prove it, otherwise everything you say should be ignored. I'm still waiting for the proof that you have the first clue of what spells are powerful. I also find it somewhat hilarious that you say i've "got it wrong" when you are arguing semantics with me about whether non-casters should be "allowed" to feel relevant.

You got your negative rep because you fail to see the obvious, while at the same time insisting you are correct. The point is not "who won." The point is that other players FEEL important and as if they are contributing. Whether they are is actually an entirely different matter. The fact that you cannot fathom that "entering the battlefield and slitting the throats of defeated opponents" (aka, rolling dice) is making other players FEEL like they contributed is what got you your negative rep. You may think you talk down to people only after provocation, but this is false, you do it immediately.

You earned it. I would give it to you again for the last post if I could.

As evidence I will tell a short tale of my last night gaming session:
First encounter: attacked by Wyverns. Wizard casts glitterdust, encounter is effectively over since will was failed. The creatures get slaughtered by the mortals but they still feel like they contributed. They got to roll dice. They get to add up damage and smile. Whether their hit point damage was the turning point of the encounter is irrelevant.

Last encounter: attacked by a weak party of hobgoblins and a bugbear. Wizard casts empowered fireball (I am not the wizard in this case, I'm playing a DMM persist party gimp and utility cleric). Everything dies in the blast. Nobody else does anything at all, doesn't even get to roll an attack. They feel that they didn't contribute because they didn't even get to roll dice.

This example is exactly what GG and myself have been saying. Your chess board example is irrelevant. I am not saying they add strategic value to the game. I am saying they FEEL relevant.

[KKDragonLord]

Anti magic field is a joke spell. Reason? 10 foot radius, centered on you.

You are now a spellcaster sans spells. The caster 15 feet away is completely unimpeded, and since you kindly cut all your stats in half by removing your buffs and item benefits, and there are spells that can attack through an anti magic field all you have done is set yourself up for a one hit kill.

Now it certainly is possible for a gish to do it but that requires a far better chassis than 'half dragon battle sorcerer' and a far better strategy than self nerfing. It also essentially boils down to be a better caster, but that should not surprise anyone.

Lol, i didnt know this thread was so serious
I guess i need help in making a more optimized character heh
nvm that this wasnt the purpose of the build, which is to roleplay a half-dragon fighter/sorcerer.

OFC full caster is better, this is D&D, it took me 3 feats to fly with wings instead of a simple spell for crying out loud

my suggestion is that you get that stick out from your behind and read the purpose of this thread, which is to Show off PnP builds, not to "MAXIMAIZEER PoWERs of Ïncompetent Builds"

[BlargneyTheSecond]

I played Hatch up to 15 before the campaign stalled out: dragonborn warforged Divine Mind 1/Fighter 1/Warblade X

Main feats: power attack, cleave, improved flight, air heritage, psionic weapon, deep impact

He had a natural fly speed of 70' with good maneuverability. The nasty bit was this combo:
- dragonborn flight gives double damage with piercing weapons on charges that move at least 20' and descend 10'
- deep impact feat lets you treat a melee attack as a touch attack
- twisted charge skill trick lets you make a 90 degree turn during a charge
- leading the charge stance lets you add your initiator level to damage on charges

So he would charge up 10' at 45 degrees then back down, using full power attack and deep impact. If I recall correctly, this attack at 6th level was around +10 melee touch for something like (6d6+70/19-20).

It got even nastier later on with the addition of the pouncing charge maneuver. My crowning achievement was taking a daelkyr from full hit points to dead in one round of attacks at level 14. :D

Good times!
-blarg

[Aspenor]

Yes, let's please get this thread back on track. Post your builds, no matter how powerful they are. They don't need to be casters, they don't need to be anything except fun to play.

Please ignore the trolls.

End of story.

[Aspenor]

I played Hatch up to 15 before the campaign stalled out: dragonborn warforged Divine Mind 1/Fighter 1/Warblade X

Main feats: power attack, cleave, improved flight, air heritage, psionic weapon, deep impact

He had a natural fly speed of 70' with good maneuverability. The nasty bit was this combo:
- dragonborn flight gives double damage with piercing weapons on charges that move at least 20' and descend 10'
- deep impact feat lets you treat a melee attack as a touch attack
- twisted charge skill trick lets you make a 90 degree turn during a charge
- leading the charge stance lets you add your initiator level to damage on charges

So he would charge up 10' at 45 degrees then back down, using full power attack and deep impact. If I recall correctly, this attack at 6th level was around +10 melee touch for something like (6d6+70/19-20).

It got even nastier later on with the addition of the pouncing charge maneuver. My crowning achievement was taking a daelkyr from full hit points to dead in one round of attacks at level 14. :D

Good times!
-blarg

Sounds cool! Is that a 4.0 build though?

One question though....how did you justify a "dragonborn warforged" in roleplay terms? I mean, warforged are MADE, not born, after all. ;)

[BlargneyTheSecond]

Sounds cool! Is that a 4.0 build though?

One question though....how did you justify a "dragonborn warforged" in roleplay terms? I mean, warforged are MADE, not born, after all. ;)
Nope he wasn't 4e... just late-cycle 3.5.

In 3.5, dragonborn are a template with no level adjustment. Essentially you hear the calling of a good dragon god, cocoon yourself in an egg, and come out with the dragonborn template added to your base race.

In Hatch's case, the dragon god was Eberron itself. She needed a champion to cleanse the world of abominations. He was made originally as a warforged named Fear, then reborn as Hatch when he heard the calling.

[Aspenor]

Nope he wasn't 4e... just late-cycle 3.5.

In 3.5, dragonborn are a template with no level adjustment. Essentially you hear the calling of a good dragon god, cocoon yourself in an egg, and come out with the dragonborn template added to your base race.

In Hatch's case, the dragon god was Eberron itself. She needed a champion to cleanse the world of abominations. He was made originally as a warforged named Fear, then reborn as Hatch when he heard the calling.

I know of the 3.5 template, but am not especially familiar with the roleplaying implications. Thanks for the explanation.

[Calebro]

I'd say that the most *fun* character I ever played was a gnome beguiler in a Pathfinder campaign.
I'll set the stage and say that NONE of my group ever allowed kender to be played when they were DM. Not one.
But I love kender and the RP involved.
Now for those of you unfamiliar with PF, the gnomes in that world are, for all intents and purposes, immortal. They can still be killed, but they will not die of old age.
There is a little stipulation on that fact however. In order for a gnome to stay youthful, s/he must experience something COMPLETELY new every so often.
In game terms, this means that as long as you continue to level, you never age.
In non-game terms, anything new will do, as long as it was a truly unique experience. The first time you commit murder is just as applicable as the first time you eat chocolate.
Anything new.

Well guess what I found! I found a loophole that allowed me to *play* a kender. Who cares if that kender was actually a gnome! And I decided that he was also a compulsive liar.
Eventually he ended up inadvertently joining the thieves' guild, and then inadvertently seized power of said guild before giving that power to a street urchin.

Wow. Too many stories to tell. But that was one FUN little gnome!

[Aspenor]

Completed Samuel Forestfriend (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2698888&postcount=24) entry. Powerful yet flavorful.

[SquelchHU]

Prove it, otherwise everything you say should be ignored. I'm still waiting for the proof that you have the first clue of what spells are powerful. I also find it somewhat hilarious that you say i've "got it wrong" when you are arguing semantics with me about whether non-casters should be "allowed" to feel relevant.

Well let's see. You started off getting ticked off because I pointed out spellcasters had the best defenses, even though it is very, very easy to see why this is so. So that's one major thing wrong off the bat.

Then you go and mention spells and completely skip both Color Spray and Sleep but mention Grease (potentially useful, but not nearly as much as the other two). Really? A list of good 1st level spells that doesn't mention either of those at all? You did get a fair number of the good ones at higher levels but many of the choices are bewildering (Reverse Gravity?), the reasons behind them are bewildering (Enervation as something other than -1d4 saves to assist another caster?), or the point is completely missed (you mention Planar Binding, and even mention higher Intelligence... yet don't mention the whole infinite Wishes thing, and call it a low power level).

And then you go on to say that insulting everyone at the table's intelligence by trying to make it seem as if they are really playing when they are not is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable thing to do instead of just being honest and telling everyone else to go take a snack break. Perhaps you think it acceptable to lie to and attempt to delude the guys sitting around the table with you, but if I felt these people warranted that sort of treatment I would not be playing with them in the first place.

And that's just the stuff I can think of immediately. Suffice it to say while you are clearly very knowledgeable regarding DDO casters, your knowledge of D&D casters leaves something to be desired. The difference between us is that I realize my knowledge of DDO casters is not complete, so I look to those who know better to improve myself. And yes, that has included you specifically. However you do not do the same to correct your own deficiencies.

And to the half dragon guy: By all means, play with your build all you want. But when you make claims that are factually incorrect (anti magic fields are bothersome to spellcasters) these claims will be corrected with detail and explanations. And when this is pointed out to be wrong you don't get to hide behind the ROLEplayer tag, you already put that down when you made a power based claim.

[Aspenor]

Well let's see. You started off getting ticked off because I pointed out spellcasters had the best defenses, even though it is very, very easy to see why this is so. So that's one major thing wrong off the bat.

Then you go and mention spells and completely skip both Color Spray and Sleep but mention Grease (potentially useful, but not nearly as much as the other two). Really? A list of good 1st level spells that doesn't mention either of those at all? You did get a fair number of the good ones at higher levels but many of the choices are bewildering (Reverse Gravity?), the reasons behind them are bewildering (Enervation as something other than -1d4 saves to assist another caster?), or the point is completely missed (you mention Planar Binding, and even mention higher Intelligence... yet don't mention the whole infinite Wishes thing, and call it a low power level).

And then you go on to say that insulting everyone at the table's intelligence by trying to make it seem as if they are really playing when they are not is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable thing to do instead of just being honest and telling everyone else to go take a snack break. Perhaps you think it acceptable to lie to and attempt to delude the guys sitting around the table with you, but if I felt these people warranted that sort of treatment I would not be playing with them in the first place.

And that's just the stuff I can think of immediately. Suffice it to say while you are clearly very knowledgeable regarding DDO casters, your knowledge of D&D casters leaves something to be desired. The difference between us is that I realize my knowledge of DDO casters is not complete, so I look to those who know better to improve myself. And yes, that has included you specifically. However you do not do the same to correct your own deficiencies.
I never said anything about spellcasters not having the best defenses, you might want to check the facts before posting something factually inaccurate.

You really want to complain about me missing a couple first level spells? At least I made the effort to post something, which you still refrain to do at all. So what if I didn't feel like going through each and every powerful spell in the whole book? At least I gave a short list, unlike you whom won't even talk about one spell. Why didn't I mention Color Spray and Sleep? Because after a certain number of levels they are completely and utterly useless and only a fool would be caught with them still memorized. The best spells are useful from 1 to 20.

The fact that I didn't mention things like infinite wish loops doesn't mean I don't know they are there. The fact that you DO mention them makes me wonder what kind of sessions you're in. I can assure you I know the tricks, I know the cheese. I don't have to actually outline how to do it, they are general knowledge. Only a complete and total munchkin would actually use the Planar Binding/CoI trick in an actual game. Maybe you play munchkin games, but I don't. Yeah, in a TO sense level 6 has ONE strong spell. In a practical sense, it's not outstanding though.

Let's see Reverse Gravity. Saving throw: none, Spell Resistance: no. Against enemies that cannot fly or levitate, you just won. Not exactly all-knowing about PnP casters, are you? I don't claim to be all-knowing on the matter, but neither should you.

Quite frankly, your knowledge regarding actual D&D sessions leaves something to be desired, and makes me wonder if you've ever actually played or if you just read TO threads on the BG forums.

Now, please leave this thread if you are not going to constructively contribute. This is not supposed to be an argumentative thread about who knows more and who is better at what.

[GramercyRiff]

And then you go on to say that insulting everyone at the table's intelligence by trying to make it seem as if they are really playing when they are not is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable thing to do instead of just being honest and telling everyone else to go take a snack break. Perhaps you think it acceptable to lie to and attempt to delude the guys sitting around the table with you, but if I felt these people warranted that sort of treatment I would not be playing with them in the first place.


This is absurd. You seem to be intentionally and frivolously assuming way too much here just to get a rise out of people.

Insulting everyone's intelligence and lying...lmao. This isn't credit default swaps/mortgage backed securities we're dealing with here. It's a game where it's obvious what's going on.

Perhaps to beginning players it's not obvious at first. But after a few encounters, it becomes clear what's happening. Seriously, there's like five classes in 3.5 that are FAR above most of the others. and a few more that are around the same power level (yes, they're all casters of course). Should everyone limit themselves to those classes? If so, 3.5 is an utter ****ing failure as I see it.

It's fine that you think non casters are worthless. There's merit to that. Without question there's merit to that (ok it's painfully obvious). It's observable in thoery and in practice. In actual game play there are many groups that have a mix of casters and non casters. In these games it should be the responsibility of the casters to make the non casters seem relevant (ie participate by rolling dice/moving mini's etc), so everyone has fun. That's the point of playing DnD (having fun), since it's not a competitive game. DnD is supposed to foster camaraderie, not animosity, regardless of how many PC's Gary Gygax killed.

This thread is about builds though, not about the caster/non caster disparity. You should contribute a build.

[Aspenor]

This is absurd. You seem to be intentionally and frivolously assuming way too much here just to get a rise out of people.

Insulting everyone's intelligence and lying...lmao. This isn't credit default swaps/mortgage backed securities we're dealing with here. It's a game where it's obvious what's going on.

Perhaps to beginning players it's not obvious at first. But after a few encounters, it becomes clear what's happening. Seriously, there's like five classes in 3.5 that are FAR above most of the others. and a few more that are around the same power level (yes, they're all casters of course). Should everyone limit themselves to those classes? If so, 3.5 is an utter ****ing failure as I see it.

It's fine that you think non casters are worthless. There's merit to that. Without question there's merit to that (ok it's painfully obvious). It's observable in thoery and in practice. In actual game play there are many groups that have a mix of casters and non casters. In these games it should be the responsibility of the casters to make the non casters seem relevant (ie participate by rolling dice/moving mini's etc), so everyone has fun. That's the point of playing DnD (having fun), since it's not a competitive game. DnD is supposed to foster camaraderie, not animosity, regardless of how many PC's Gary Gygax killed.

This thread is about builds though, not about the caster/non caster disparity. You should contribute a build.

DnD isn't about writing I WIN in neon marker on the back of a notebook and standing up and throwing it in everybody else's face and shouting? :rolleyes: :D

[GramercyRiff]

To attempt to get this train back on its rails...

Focused Transmuter 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5

This could be a gish for sure, but really it's a caster that burns three Wizard levels to be able to use Haste 3.0. That's right two standard actions per turn. With a swift casting, that's three spells per turn. Don't forget Celerity shenanigans as well. It's ********, I agree. The last five levels can be anything that advances full caster levels. I slapped on AC 5 because I like the PrC.

The best race is probably Neraphim, a no LA Outsider for Alter Self/Polymorph abuse. Around level 5 you can Alter Self into a Dwarven Ancestor, an outsider that has a HUGE natural bonus to AC (+18). It also get DR 10/adamantine, but I'm not sure if you get that, as DR is most often a special quality and not a physical quality. In the MM IV entry it's unclear due to the newer monster entry format. The usual suspects for Polymorph apply too, but you also get Outsider as an option. We all know that Outsiders are oozing awesome. Also, since Neraphim are outsiders, they're proficient with martial weapons, which makes them qualify for Swiftblade and AC without a feat.

You could also go Gray Elf for the Int boost, and take the Otherworldy feat that gives the outsider type. You'd also have to get a martial proficiency someway, be it feat or class. Feat is probably better. Lesser Aasimar or Lesser Tiefling work as well.

More on this build later.

[Gercho]

BTW, everyone knows that 3.5 and early versions have no class balance, but i m pretty sure that everyone fixed that when playing somehow. (i know, that people fix it doesnt means that is not broken, dont cite Overoni)
Some ways to fix it:
-everyone is a caster
-nobody is a caster
-casters dont make the non casters irrelevant because they refrain themselves
-house rules nerf the casters
or my favorite
-adapt the opponents to be extremely high hp, high saves and high sr (or with tons of inmunities), sounds familiar? :P

[KKDragonLord]

Sounds cool! Is that a 4.0 build though?

One question though....how did you justify a "dragonborn warforged" in roleplay terms? I mean, warforged are MADE, not born, after all. ;)

Heh you should see my Zombie Robot Ninja Pirate Vampire from 4e

[GramercyRiff]

Heh you should see my Zombie Robot Ninja Pirate Vampire from 4e

You couldn't fit Commando in there?

I wanna see this regardless.

[Jiipster]

One of my favs is also the classic Liontotem Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. At least until the DM is smart enough to have a sniper shoot him sometime when he's in the middle of his party with no hostiles in sight, triggering a Frenzy and him going medieval on his friends.

[KKDragonLord]

You couldn't fit Commando in there?

I wanna see this regardless.

i dont have it all here with me but the gist of it is:

Zombie = revenant, undead player class
Robot = past life, you could add the feat that give the warforged racial power to make it official
Ninja = Assassin class, they even got a Ki Focus (and they didnt need to cuz they use Shadow power)
Pirate= Corsair prestige from Faerun
Vampire= Heritage feat, Vampire Bloodline (or something like that)
You can still add 2 more classes, by making the character a Hybrid and getting MC feats
(or unlimited MC feats if you start as a bard)
And an Epic Destiny

[BlargneyTheSecond]

BTW, everyone knows that 3.5 and early versions have no class balance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

On top of that, I disagree.

1) Assuming equally competent and equally geared opponents, in 3.5 high-level combat whoever wins initiative most likely wins a fight. It's just a fast-paced, deadly game.

2) The game isn't about number-crunching rock'em-sock'em "my dude has bigger numbers than yours". When you take the classes and put them in the actual context of the game's setting, they're all remarkably useful and cool to play. Context matters because in this case the context is a real live person in the form of the DM.

I do agree with you that high-level spellcasters are deadly... just like everybody else in the game.
-blarg

[GramercyRiff]

Focused Conjurer 3/Master Conjurer 10/Malconvoker 6/Paragnostic Apostle 1

First off, since this is a summoning build, we absolutely don't hesitate to go Focused Specialist. This will give us tons of castings of Conjuration spells per day. This means tons of summons, and tons of fantastic winning control. We outlaw Illusion, Evocation, and Necromancy. We could outlaw Transmutation over Necromancy, as Necromancy has some great debuffs and save or die's, but Transmutation is just too good in my view to give up. Of course, you don't have to go Focused Specialist. If you just stick to regular Conjurer, you outlaw Illusion and Evocation.

We also take Rapid Summoning for standard action summmons. We give up Immediate Magic, which is a kick to the nuts, but we'll be alright.

Last we take Enhanced Summoning, getting rid of Scribe Scroll, to get Augment Summoning for free, a Malconvoker prereq.

Master Conjurer is there to bolster Conjuration and give us some free feats, but also to get us swift action standard action Conjurations 3/day.

Malconvoker is the reason why we do this. The deal is to summon auto buffed hordes of evil outsiders and make them eat other evil bastards. Fight evil with evil. We can also abuse Planar Binding. Malconvoker needs Bluff to be as high as possible (you do get Skill Focus: Bluff for free) to get a free extend effect added to the summon. All you really need to worry about is not failing by 5 or more because the summon will become hostile toward you. This should never be an issue though. Not many outsiders have Sense Motive. The ones that do, be prepared for them before you summon.

Paragnostic Apostle gives our evil bastard outsider hordes Fast Healing 5, albeit way late.

Good races are Human, Strongheart Halfling, Illuminan, or Gray Elf. I'll be using Strongheart Halfling.

Good familiars are, of course, Hummingbird (+4 Init) or Snake (+3 Bluff). We'll take Hummingbird.

Sources: Complete Scoundrel, Complete Mage, and Unearthed Arcana (SRD)

1: Focused Conjurer 1 Spell Focus: Conjuration, Improved Initiative, Augment Summoning, Rapid Summoning
2: Focused Conjurer 2
3: Focused Conjurer 3 Item Familiar (to mainly boost Bluff)
4: Master Conjurer 1 Skill Focus: Spellcraft
5: Master Conjurer 2
6: Malconvoker 1 Sculpt Spell
7: Malconvoker 2
8: Malconvoker 3 Skill Focus: Bluff
9: Malconvoker 4 Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration
10: Malconvoker 5
11: Master Conjurer 3 Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
12: Master Conjurer 4 Heighten Spell
13: Master Conjurer 5
14: Master Conjurer 6
15: Master Conjurer 7 Quicken Spell
16: Master Conjurer 8
17: Master Conjurer 9
18: Master Conjurer 10 Chain Spell or Repeat Spell
19: Malconvoker 6
20: Paragnostic Apostle 1

I'm really not sure what to put into the last slot. Any suggestions?

I'm sure there's better builds out there, but I wanted to keep this somewhat simple.

An alternate version could be:

Archivist 9/Malconvoker 9/Sacred Excorcist 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1

[Aspenor]

You could always consider Cloudy Conjuration, which is not bad with the option the place the cloud adjacent to you for a small amount of BC and cover after getting your summons off. It's not crazy powerful but nice for a summoner.

[SquelchHU]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

On top of that, I disagree.

1) Assuming equally competent and equally geared opponents, in 3.5 high-level combat whoever wins initiative most likely wins a fight. It's just a fast-paced, deadly game.

Mostly correct. However initiative is so important that often even if the guy who is at a disadvantage wins it is all over, as long as it is not a large disadvantage. First strikes are that good.


2) The game isn't about number-crunching rock'em-sock'em "my dude has bigger numbers than yours". When you take the classes and put them in the actual context of the game's setting, they're all remarkably useful and cool to play. Context matters because in this case the context is a real live person in the form of the DM.

I do agree with you that high-level spellcasters are deadly... just like everybody else in the game.
-blarg

This one is a bit more off the mark. Still mostly right, but wrong enough to correct anyways.

See, not all classes can launch that devastating first strike. They're playing a fast paced and deadly game but are not fast paced and deadly, themselves. And that's one of the biggest problems with non casters, which comprise quite a few classes throughout the game. They are not playing the same game as everyone else, they cannot keep up, so they fall on their face.

One need only look at feats - intended to be the primary power source of these sorts of characters to see why they are falling so short of the mark.