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dunklezhan
01-14-2010, 06:46 AM
Ran Caverns of Korromar on normal with a friend and a hireling last night. We took a L8 kensai TWF fighter, L2 Rogue/L5 Mage and a L5 Cleric hireling. We ran this blind – neither of us had done it before, and we knew nothing about it except that the wiz/rogue and hireling were under level and it was ‘long’. We prevailed without any deaths which we were reasonably pleased with and I thought it was a brilliant adventure. However, it was a complete surprise to find that there was a fragging Beholder, and so we were completely unequipped for it.

I (the wiz/rogue) contributed fine in terms of DPS & buffs, right up until that fight with the beholder, at which point I became completely useless. And I do mean completely – I checked the combat log and believe me I served no purpose whatsoever. No damage at all. Not one point.

I still had my buffs up when I gave up trying to hit it with my weapons (hoping for flanking bonuses and such, and failing miserably) and decided in desperation to try, y’know, a spell or something (scorching ray as it happens). But it turned around and antimagicked me before the spell even went off. Not actually sure how I managed to draw the aggro for it to turn and face me given I wasn’t doing any damage, but there we are. Luckily about two seconds after that the fighter’s massive DPS took it down.

I’d read the thread by Mr Cow a few weeks previously (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151041) so at least we had an idea of some tactics for the fighter to use which I think along with the high level of DPS he was doing did help with the fighter’s success, but essentially, the fighter would have been fine without me. Didn’t need me at all for that part of the adventure at all in fact.

My spell list is pretty complete but I didn’t see any spell of Obvious Win to use. I assume beholders are probably outright immune to Otto’s Resistable Dance or similar charms? We went in hoping the fighter would get aggro and I could sneak attack it with for a few extra points of damage before it wouldn’t turn its Anti Magic gaze on me and strip me of my buffs (WRONG!!).

My standard approach to date has been to play more as a buffing rogue who happens to have the odd damaging spell. My ultimate build objective is far more classically wizardy, but with the ability to handle most traps and locks, and evasion + insightful reflexes seems quite a powerful combination. I don’t think there’s a problem with my build as such, it does what I want it to so far, so think it’s a tactics issue. I do hope it isn’t the build because I really enjoy playing it.

Anyway, all that waffle was leading up to some questions/requests for comment:

1. Has the time now come to play more like a wizard and less like a rogue, or am I better off vs something like a beholder just doing what I’ve been doing and grabbing the best weapon I’m proficient with and trying to stab it some?

2. What can I do to improve my effectiveness against such a creature when we go back and try this on hard or with another group? Note I do not have access to a higher level toon, masses of money to buy stuff from the AH, or the time to raid (not that I could at L7 anyway).

3. For something like a beholder, is it a question of tactics or is it a question of gear (I know its ‘both’, but which is of primary importance)?

4. Again, for something like a beholder, any particular spells (L3 or below) to use so I can fight like a card carrying wizard for once? Do I need to wait until I have L4 or over spells?

toughguyjoe
01-14-2010, 06:52 AM
The beholder in Caverns of Korromar is special. He is a red Named mob, or a Boss. Red Named mobs are immune to most wizards main weaponry against beholders. you can't insta kill him (finger of death, Phantasmal Killer) you can't dance him (red names are immune to all dance spells), and even with the new rules letting you stat damage him, I don't believe you have shut his casting off by getting him to zero str. as far as i know red names will retain at elast 1 point in their abilities at all times.

Now as far as a wizard rogue in that fight, seriously man, its just what it is. your best bet is to stay far away from the beholder, and when you get a chacne hit him with scorching ray. It seems in my experience the further you are away from th fight, the better chance you have of hitting him before getting anti magiced.

Have fun!

Talon_Moonshadow
01-14-2010, 06:55 AM
The specific fight you mention is difficult for a caster to get a spell off.

But in general, stay out of sight, either hidden or behind a rock. Try to cast your first spell when the beholder is not looking your way.

Or stay very far back and try to cast from a distance. (enlarge spell feat helps)

You can also cast before the beholder agros on anyone.

Either a spell to kill or disable the beholder (doesn't wrok on rednamed ones)
Or something like a firewall which wil then be in a position to damage him, when he does agro. (this method can work in CoK)

Other than that just keep casting and hope you get one off. Or try to get behind him.

dunklezhan
01-14-2010, 07:00 AM
wow, fast replies! Thanks both.

So... on the face of it I'm not doing anything particularly noobish (except the cardinal sin of multiclassing before playing a pure class all the way to cap)? Good to know.

And the plan of 'stay away from the beholder and blast it while cowering while the meatsh- er, highly skilled fighter takes it down' is very much a plan I can sign up to.

Thanks, that helps reassure me enormously guys/gals.

kren.cooper
01-14-2010, 08:00 AM
Meatshield eh?

Right - next time YOU can run in, aggro the huge scary monster with the eyebeams of buggeryouup, and I'll run round the back and go for flanking attacks then.

And we did have one death, but only the poor hireling, when the bunch of ice mephits spawned near the end and swamped him in his "what we thought was a safe spot but turned out to be the spawn location ohfrackohfrackohfrack dammithesdead" spot.

dunklezhan
01-14-2010, 08:40 AM
His death doesn't count. He got paid, didn't he? Actually, it probably does count, XP-wise, but if you're going to go for the job security of being a hireling instead of a fully independent adventurer, don't expect any sympathy from me. :)

And if its any consolation, you're a very effective meatshield...

Lilliana
01-14-2010, 05:38 PM
His death doesn't count. He got paid, didn't he? Actually, it probably does count, XP-wise, but if you're going to go for the job security of being a hireling instead of a fully independent adventurer, don't expect any sympathy from me. :)

And if its any consolation, you're a very effective meatshield...

At least you didn't call him a meatbag :)

Club'in
01-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Is your kensai buddy a warforged? That's a pretty good duo combo.

Are you putting points into UMD? You'll eventually be able to use raise dead scrolls, which helps with a duo.

Sounds like you're doing fine, tactic-wise. Buff 'em up, and help whack things. Another couple levels and you'll get Wall of Fire, which will really start to bring you into your own. I'd also recommend you get the spell Displacement, which you can toss on the meatbag (erm...fighter!) when he gets surrounded. Let him wail on them a bit, then toss in a fireball or some such. Good times! Otto's is pretty good, too, for the singular but dumb opponents (like ogres and trolls). Hypnotism is great for thinning the herd, as well.

rabidfox
01-14-2010, 06:13 PM
I solo'd this as a lvl 7 Wizard (WF) and enlarge+some spell killed it(not sure what spell anymore, thought it was PK). I was able to attack it from far enough away that it never even knew I was there to put its anti-magic up. You'll also find having Firewall and later Disintegrate (for golems, pretty much the only way to fight them outside of melee) will change your play style as you level. Once you hit lvl 9(2rogue/7wiz) and lvl 4 spells, you'll find your game shifts from meleeing to nuking more.

toughguyjoe
01-14-2010, 06:21 PM
I solo'd this as a lvl 7 Wizard (WF) and enlarge+PK insta-killed it.

Can i get someone to Confirm for me that this Beholder's name is Red?

I'm pretty sure that it is. However its been a couple of weeks since I ran that particular instance.

If its Red, you're thinking of a diff beholder.

If its Orange, then that tactic is pretty good to open with. If h e passes though, you've got a fight on your hands.

rabidfox
01-14-2010, 08:44 PM
I just re-ran it to check. PK wasn't working. I was able to kill it from outside the room using enlarge+other spells without agro'ing any of the skeletons in the room. The beholder just sat there in the room and occasionally tried to use a beam on me, thankfully with WF immunities and a deathblock necklace, it didn't really do much to me. Now I'm wondering what spell I originally took it down with if it wasn't PK, maybe it was enlarge+max firewall. Either way, ignore what I said about PK before (I tried casting PK a dozen or so times and it didn't work. Maybe I got stupidly lucky and PK worked on it, or I'm mixing it up with another beholder. If it does work, seems like slim luck on it.)

You might be able to get away with enlarge+MM and enlarge+Melf's arrow.
(At least I got a chillshard out of the test run =) Now if I could only remember what I actually did to kill the beholder that time.)

dunklezhan
01-15-2010, 06:18 AM
no, the fighter isn't WF - yes that would be quite powerful, but the pocket cleric hireling did just fine. Better than fine actually when you realise he has ELEVEN (we counted!) divine vitalities to use at a mere L5 - so I was able to have all my buffs on extend, using about 1/3rd of my spell points after each rest... but then have the cleric put me back up to full SP immediately. That helped immensely.

The fighter is a dwarf loaded up with twin axes of various types and all the dwarf axe enhancements. Hence what appears to us, based on our limited experience, to be HA-UGE DPS, even at L8!

I'm *trying* to put points into UMD, but obviously I'm already splitting them over DD, Search, Spot, & Concentrate, so its going up s l o w l y.

I already have displacement but don't have it memorised because of its very short duration even with Extend. So I use Blur instead. 20% miss over ten mins > 50% miss over 2 over the course of an adventure. Though I do appreciate surviving the whole adventure is a bit pointless if you die in seconds in the boss fight! With that in mind, please note I did consider loading up Displacement for that last fight, but there aren't THAT many skelly knights to worry about, particularly with Halt Undead being available to stop them hitting us at all, and I don't think the miss chance counts vs spells (do please correct me if i'm wrong) which obviously is the main issue with a beholder.

Club'in
01-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Sorry to confuse the issue, Dunkle. I was just talking strategies in general, rather than for that particular fight. For that fight (or any beholder fight), have your buddy rush in, swinging. Once he has agro, get him to spin the beholder around and face away from you. The anti-magic effect projects in a cone shape directly in front of the beholder. If the beholder is facing away from you, you'll be able to get your spells off.