Incorporeality + Displacement = "Stack?"

[Aspenor]

Theoretically, when both are applied the attacker should roll twice (once for displacement, once for incorporeality). Displacement is a form of concealment. Incorporeality is a monster quality which reflects its lack of a corporeal body. Thus, the miss chances do not come from the same source and in effect should "stack" as Mirror Image and Displacement "stack."

Just a thought for the devs and perhaps a question to anybody that's tested it.

[Lithic]

I would hope they do not stack, for balance purposes.

You could always test this on live by using command undead on a wraith or spectre, cast displacement on it, break the charm, and start swinging without a ghost touch weapon or true seeing.

[Angelus_dead]

I would hope they do not stack, for balance purposes.
Of course they wouldn't actually stack additively, because that would mean a 50% + 50% = 100% miss chance.

But they'd naturally apply successively, and it appears that the devs expect that to happen, or else the Pale Master's Wraith mode would provide the normal 50% incorporeal miss chance, instead of just 25%.

[Sarezar]

I believe Incorporeal(ity?) is rolled first. So it should give you 62% (rounded down) concealment.

[Schwarzie]

Actually Displacement should get tested first, then Incorporeality. But that doesnt change anything for the end result of a effective miss chance of 62.5%.

I really hope that this is usable, especially since the Undeadforms bring such big Problems with selfhealing. (Especially for the WF Wizards)

[Shade]

For monsters they certainly both work.
I've encoutnered wraiths with displacement in certain quest where another mob buffs them.

It's not really stacking tho. It's 1 roll, you negate with some spectral glvoes, and another you negate with a TS spell.

Monsters? Not many can negate incorporeal status. Lots can ignore magical concealment.

In a sense, they you could infact stack 3 types of miss chances: Magic concealment (displacement) Incorporeal (wraith) and fog conealment (cloudkill) all at once. But it's 3 rolls, not x+x+x.

[MrCow]

In DDO, Incorporeal is a form of concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing. You simply take the best form of concealment (or incorporeal) and use that. This includes:


Cholthulzz Incorporeal
Displacement
Standard Incorporeal
Wraith Form Incorporeal
Blur
Cloud Concealment
Cloak of the Zephyr
Dusk
Ghostly


I found that one out a while ago by charming a Wraith, giving it displacement, and then hitting it with/without ghost touch. Displacement is the effect that is rolled on a wraith if it has displacement and completely negates the roll on the Incorporeal check (thus showing Incorporeal in DDO is considered concealment).

[Aspenor]

In DDO, Incorporeal is a form of concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing. You simply take the best form of concealment (or incorporeal) and use that. This includes:


Cholthulzz Incorporeal
Displacement
Standard Incorporeal
Wraith Form Incorporeal
Blur
Cloud Concealment
Cloak of the Zephyr
Dusk
Ghostly


I found that one out a while ago by charming a Wraith, giving it displacement, and then hitting it with/without ghost touch. Displacement is the effect that is rolled on a wraith if it has displacement and completely negates the roll on the Incorporeal check (thus showing Incorporeal in DDO is considered concealment).

I see. Well, by the book this *shouldn't* be the case.

[baddax]

Doesnt blindness factor in somewhere?

[HeavenlyCloud]

For monsters they certainly both work.
I've encoutnered wraiths with displacement in certain quest where another mob buffs them.

It's not really stacking tho. It's 1 roll, you negate with some spectral glvoes, and another you negate with a TS spell.

Monsters? Not many can negate incorporeal status. Lots can ignore magical concealment.

In a sense, they you could infact stack 3 types of miss chances: Magic concealment (displacement) Incorporeal (wraith) and fog conealment (cloudkill) all at once. But it's 3 rolls, not x+x+x.

Another of your facts huh :rolleyes:

[MrCow]

Doesnt blindness factor in somewhere?

Aye, if the blind target lacks True Seeing then everything has total concealment (50% concealment) to the blind target. The alternative way to think about it is that everything to the blind target has as-if Displacement.

[Talamare2k4]

Concealment and Incorporeal should apply separately

Displacement, Blur and Cloud effects are concealment effects and should not stack

However Incorporeal is something completely different

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.


An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

Edit - Blind, All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character.

[Schwarzie]

In DDO, Incorporeal is a form of concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing. You simply take the best form of concealment (or incorporeal) and use that. This includes:


Ouch, well that makes the Warith form pretty useless. So as a net gain you only receive +20 to move silent and the con draining melee attacks. Both pretty useless for most of the wizards out there.

[Sarezar]

I found that one out a while ago by charming a Wraith, giving it displacement, and then hitting it with/without ghost touch. Displacement is the effect that is rolled on a wraith if it has displacement and completely negates the roll on the Incorporeal check (thus showing Incorporeal in DDO is considered concealment).

This is a bug. Or, to not sound bad, I should say, this is probably a bug. Even if it's by design, I would still consider bug reporting it, so they could reconsider its implementation.

Displacement is a miss chance due to not knowing where the target's outline begins and where it end.
Incorporeal means that even if your sword passes straight through the target, it still has a chance to not deal damage.

Therefore, an attacker must both identify correctly where to strike (TS negates this), and also be lucky enough to deal damage (Ghost Touch/Ethereal negate this).

[Kerplunk]

Here's a question that just popped in my head last night while doing the Crucible swim:
How does this fit in with traps?
Common sense (heh!) tells me that traps would have at least a 50% miss chance, at least the non-magical ones (blades, spikes and so on). Unless the spikes were of the ghost-touch variety, that is :)
Has anyone tested this?

[Schwarzie]

If the Blades of the Traps were not magical at all they cannot harm an incorporeal target. You need magic weapons to receive 50% misschance only, and a Ghost touch one to negate the miss chance completely.

[Talamare2k4]

Also the miss chance from incorporeal is suppose to apply to most spells as well