Practiced Spellcaster unbalancing or just right?

[Samiusbot]

In ddocast 148, one of my questions got answered.

From the Ask the devs 10

Jerry: Well that's excellent, thank you. Next question, and I know that Samius has been wanting to get this one asked for quite a long time, so I'm glad that we're able to bring it in this weeks show. He writes:

“Can we please have the Practiced Spellcaster feat? Please, please, please? I can make waffles.”

Then there's a second part too, but why don't we get to that next. Do you guys know about the Practiced Spellcaster feat? Any thoughts?

Genasi: Uh, I do actually.

Jerry: Ok.

Genasi: I have, actually, for these two questions have good news and bad news, and unfortunately the bad news comes first on Practiced Spellcaster, which is: We don't have plans to implement it. This is another balancing issue similar to Mithril augmentations. Basically it's just...it's a very powerful feat, for those who aren't familiar with it, it allows you to essentially cast spells from one of your spellcasting classes at a higher level than you actually have levels in that class.

Jerry: Hmm.

Genasi: So if you're a level 9 character, but you only have 5 wizard levels, you could get up to 4 extra wizard “spellcaster” levels even though you only have, you know, 5 levels in wizard.

Jerry: Sure.

Genasi: So right now this is something we think is potentially unbalancing so we don't have plans to do it.


So I have been challenging myself and people on the ddocast boards to invent the most broken use for this feat and help me see that it is in fact over powering compared to other “broken / stupid good” things already in game. Maybe I am just not inventive enough, to really break this feat.

So I am asking for your help, give me an example/s using this feat that is too good to be added. And maybe if you think if Practiced Spellcaster feat should be added or is it unbalancing.

My best example is a 4fighter/1wizard that takes PSC and extend for 10 min shield and other 1level buffs. PSC makes the example a 5 level caster for spell casting and extend doubles the duration. But can't this class combo use a 5lvl shield wand? Or some 5 level fighters umd a shield wand?

Thanks for your help,
Samius

[aerieon]

Actually I have to agree with their assements on it would be too overpowering. Basiclaly it would make hybrid casters as powerful spell wise as a full caster. Although I do have a very simple solution to it make it cost dramatically more per level it increases the spell so that it becomes a non isssue. Right now heighten only adds a few more sp's per level it increases it, make the practiced spell caster feat maybe cost 20 more spell points per added level (ok maybe i'm off on the amount but you can catch the drift). That way if you REALLY REALLY need to do that spell at a higher level you can assuming you have the spell points but it will cost and cost harshly so that you can only do it once unless you have suffecient levels in the caster to warrent it and mitigate the extra cost. Even with this example it would make a level 2 monk/rogue spash with a caster alot more viable and powerful (not that they weren't viable to begin with) but yet still add the added cost for those that choose to only have 7ishlevels in a caster while the rest is melee.

[Impaqt]

Easy.

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk with 2 PSC Feats.

Full Melee capable with L20 Spell Casting ability.

My current build is rediculosuly effective as it is. Give me those 8 extra caster levels and I wouldnt play any of my other characters ever again.

[Letrii]

It only raises caster level, it would not affect spell points or spells known/spell slots. The 5th level wizard would still be limited to 3rd level spells, he wouldn't get 5th level spells for having caster level 9. Only affect would be strength of the spells he can cast.

[Zaodan]

Actually I have to agree with their assements on it would be too overpowering. Basiclaly it would make hybrid casters as powerful spell wise as a full caster. Although I do have a very simple solution to it make it cost dramatically more per level it increases the spell so that it becomes a non isssue. Right now heighten only adds a few more sp's per level it increases it, make the practiced spell caster feat maybe cost 20 more spell points per added level (ok maybe i'm off on the amount but you can catch the drift). That way if you REALLY REALLY need to do that spell at a higher level you can assuming you have the spell points but it will cost and cost harshly so that you can only do it once unless you have suffecient levels in the caster to warrent it and mitigate the extra cost. Even with this example it would make a level 2 monk/rogue spash with a caster alot more viable and powerful (not that they weren't viable to begin with) but yet still add the added cost for those that choose to only have 7ishlevels in a caster while the rest is melee.

Yes, have "Practiced Spellcaster" be a "mode" like Extend, Maximize, Heighten, etc.

You turn it on, all spells cost +X sp(where X is a hefty amount, maybe +50 or more, whatever it takes to balance it out).

So, you can have that 12 wiz/8 other classes and get level 20 damage, DCs, spell pen checks, etc but at a severe sp cost. Or you can leave it turned off and cast at 12th level. Hell, you could even require that the user turn on "Practiced Spellcaster" *AND* Heighten in order to get those maxxed out spells!

[Kyln]

Easy.

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk with 2 PSC Feats.

Full Melee capable with L20 Spell Casting ability.

My current build is rediculosuly effective as it is. Give me those 8 extra caster levels and I wouldnt play any of my other characters ever again.

According to how I understand the feat, that is incorrect. You can take the feat multiple times, but each instance must be applied to a different casting class. Your build above would be able to gain the cast spells with the DC and damage of a L16 wizard. It would not have access to the spells of a L16 wizard and would be far short of a L20 caster. A wizard, figher, cleric could take the feat to add +4 wizard, and +4 to cleric, but again this is only affects DC and the dice rolled/duration. Not the spells and not spell points. It should apply to umd caster level checks.

[aerieon]

It should apply to umd caster level checks.

I think that point alone is another gotcha that the developers don't want. That was why in my example I just used what the spell caster already had for spells, and allowed them to be raised up in spell levels. I mean really do you want a rogue with high UMD doing a level 20 firewall spell?? don't you think that is a little overpowering?

[hermespan]

Actually I have to agree with their assements on it would be too overpowering. Basiclaly it would make hybrid casters as powerful spell wise as a full caster. Although I do have a very simple solution to it make it cost dramatically more per level it increases the spell so that it becomes a non isssue. Right now heighten only adds a few more sp's per level it increases it, make the practiced spell caster feat maybe cost 20 more spell points per added level (ok maybe i'm off on the amount but you can catch the drift). That way if you REALLY REALLY need to do that spell at a higher level you can assuming you have the spell points but it will cost and cost harshly so that you can only do it once unless you have suffecient levels in the caster to warrent it and mitigate the extra cost. Even with this example it would make a level 2 monk/rogue spash with a caster alot more viable and powerful (not that they weren't viable to begin with) but yet still add the added cost for those that choose to only have 7ishlevels in a caster while the rest is melee.

They could balance it by making the spell point cost = to spells available at the highest level at which they are casting the spells.

IE if you want to cast magic missile at level 9 and your wizard level was at 6, it would cost as much as a firewall would. Balance problem solved... This feat would be situationally useful for taking bosses down, but not for clearing trash.

[noinfo]

In ddocast 148, one of my questions got answered.

From the Ask the devs 10


So I am asking for your help, give me an example/s using this feat that is too good to be added. And maybe if you think if Practiced Spellcaster feat should be added or is it unbalancing.

My best example is a 4fighter/1wizard that takes PSC and extend for 10 min shield and other 1level buffs. PSC makes the example a 5 level caster for spell casting and extend doubles the duration. But can't this class combo use a 5lvl shield wand? Or some 5 level fighters umd a shield wand?

Thanks for your help,
Samius

Realy it only affects:

Damage (up to a point because of spell level limitations)
Duration
Spell penetration

It can't affect dc of spells.

Really I have no problem with it. Probably would not use it myself, but would make a lower level wiz splash more playable.

[Zaodan]

Practiced Spellcaster
Cooldown: 1 seconds
Usage: Active (Toggle)
While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are treated as being cast as a caster level 4 higher than your own. This potentially affects their damage, duration, spell penetration DCs and other variables related solely to level. This feat increases each spell's point cost by 20 sp while active.


- Doesn't affect UMD/scroll use
- Doesn't affect DCs
- Has balance, not abusive.

[ghettoGenius]

Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rog 1

Full spell penetration.
Full spell durations.
Full spell damage.

That char would already be tight on feats but I could squeeze it in for a stout offensive caster.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Easy.

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk with 2 PSC Feats.

Full Melee capable with L20 Spell Casting ability.

My current build is rediculosuly effective as it is. Give me those 8 extra caster levels and I wouldnt play any of my other characters ever again.

Actually it doesn't work that way, you could only select it once for your wiz levels and it only changes your caster level, not your SP or known spells.

Here's the feat description, highlighting is mine: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2



Practiced Spellcaster

Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks.

Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

For example, a human 5th-level sorcerer/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his sorcerer caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his sorcerer caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice).

A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect.

This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

I do think that with the reduction on limits on MC and the impact of SP instead of spell slots this feat is more powerful than in PnP. For that reason reducing it to +2 might be a better balance, but adding it to the game would be nice and would help promote interesting builds.

[Zaodan]

Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rog 1

Full spell penetration.
Full spell durations.
Full spell damage.
Dramatically more SPs to cast their spells, thus smaller spell pool.

That char would already be tight on feats but I could squeeze it in for a stout offensive caster.


Fixed as per the standing suggestion to make it an toggleable Metamagic feat as per Heighten.

[noinfo]

Practiced Spellcaster
Cooldown: 1 seconds
Usage: Active (Toggle)
While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are treated as being cast as a caster of your Character Level in power instead of as your Class level in power. This potentially affects their damage, duration and spell penetration DCs. This feat increases each spell's point cost by 50 sp while active.


- Doesn't affect UMD/scroll use
- Doesn't affect DCs
- Has balance, not abusive.

I don't see a need for extra sp cost. I mean take fireball for example, 6th level wiz 10th level fighter casts it with the feat does 10d6 + metas damage, for a level 16 not ground breaking.
9th level wiz 7 level fighter its worse, still only 10d6. Most spell damage limitations will hold this one in check fine.
Though a haste will be for the level 7 1 min + 3x11 now :-p (if i remember correctly from lamania notes)

[rimble]

The primary area of overpowering I guess is to achieve some new important level of spell upgrade. Like Resist Energy goes to 30 at level 11, you could get that with only 7 levels. Or Barkskin goes to +5 at level 12, you could get that with just 8 levels of Ranger.

Still can't see what's horribly broken about that though.


My best example is a 4fighter/1wizard that takes PSC and extend for 10 min shield and other 1level buffs. PSC makes the example a 5 level caster for spell casting and extend doubles the duration. But can't this class combo use a 5lvl shield wand? Or some 5 level fighters umd a shield wand?

Exactly.

[aerieon]

I don't see a need for extra sp cost. I mean take fireball for example, 6th level wiz 10th level fighter casts it with the feat does 10d6 + metas damage, for a level 16 not ground breaking.
9th level wiz 7 level fighter its worse, still only 10d6. Most spell damage limitations will hold this one in check fine.
Though a haste will be for the level 7 1 min + 3x11 now :-p (if i remember correctly from lamania notes)

Instead of fireball think of firewall... Now tell me that there doesn't need to be more of a sp cost to have this feat.

[noinfo]

Instead of fireball think of firewall... Now tell me that there doesn't need to be more of a sp cost to have this feat.

Why that spell also has its limits? It also gets much of its power from enhancement lines and other metas and items.

Think of the casters investment to generate that same amount of damage as another caster of 4 levels higher. Really base damage from wof is +4 pts it is that that is multiplied by all the other stuff and to be honest if they have invested in that other stuff then who cares?

[ghettoGenius]

I dont see this as game breaking. I kinda like the idea actually. As a feat you would have to sacrifice something ... extend, quicken? I wouldnt use it if it increased SP cost though unless it was only 10SP per cast.

If they do implement this there would be many more multiclassers so I would boost capstones significantly for some classes to compensate.

[Aspenor]

I see there are a lot of misconceptions about what Practiced Spellcaster does. No, you cannot take 2 of them and make a 12/6/2 build into a L20 wizard. The feat does not grant spell levels, only caster levels. You gain no spells, and the benefits are only for duration, spell resistance checks, and for purposes of "per caster level" features.

The feats are, actually extremely well-made as written.

In DDO, this means that it grants no spell points, spell levels, or spells. It would grant up to a +4 bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, up to for caster levels for spell duration purposes, up to 4 caster levels for spell "per level" mechanics (such as damage). This feat would not imbalance the game at all.

The ease of coding the feat, however, is another issue altogether.

[Samiusbot]

I think I might need to give the pnp feat description.

Practiced Spellcaster

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you maybe able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD).
A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect.
This does not affect your spells per day or spells known, it only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

So if you were using Impaqt's example

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk

The caster level for wizard spell would be 16. So what damaging spells does this build use? Lets say the Bread & Butter of ddo, Wall of Fire, would do base damage of 2d6+16 vs 2d6+12.

Super scary?

There are also a few posts to make it a toggle, and make it cost a ton of mana.

So if would cost a feat and a ton of Sp per spell?

So keep the examples coming, I still haven't read one that I would say is too good for ddo.

[Impaqt]

So even if I can only take it once, that still raised my Wall of Fire to L16, a Noticeable Improvement, Maxes out Spells like Fireball, Provides extra Missles for my Force missle type spells, Extends my Buffs further, and increses my Spell penn and caster level checks to a Useable level.

Still overpowering.

[aerieon]

I think I might need to give the pnp feat description.

Practiced Spellcaster

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you maybe able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD).
A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect.
This does not affect your spells per day or spells known, it only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

So if you were using Impaqt's example

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk

The caster level for wizard spell would be 16. So what damaging spells does this build use? Lets say the Bread & Butter of ddo, Wall of Fire, would do base damage of 2d6+16 vs 2d6+12.

Super scary?

There are also a few posts to make it a toggle, and make it cost a ton of mana.

So if would cost a feat and a ton of Sp per spell?

So keep the examples coming, I still haven't read one that I would say is too good for ddo.

OK then let me flip the coin (play devils advocate). Why would you want this feat, you would have to give up something else inorderto get it so it's not like it's for free. Mostlikely whatever your going to list as why you want it is the reasoning behind why they feel it's so overpowered/unbalancing. Also I didn't know/read correctly that it only gave 4 levels so that invalidates my firewall example really other then a little more damage and longer duration.

[noinfo]

OK then let me flip the coin (play devils advocate). Why would you want this feat, you would have to give up something else inorderto get it so it's not like it's for free. Mostlikely whatever your going to list as why you want it is the reasoning behind why they feel it's so overpowered/unbalancing. Also I didn't know/read correctly that it only gave 4 levels so that invalidates my firewall example really other then a little more damage and longer duration.

The real reason is to give caster splashes (not wf) a bit of a break.

Lets compare a 2 level wiz splash to a 2 level monk splash as an example

Best you will get is a 4 min shield spell vs evasion and ac bonus.

Add practiced spell caster and you get 10 min shield spell and a few magic missiles (better have a magi item though)

It will make splashes a little more powerful, that is the purpose of feats to add power, no one takes a feat to make the character weaker.

At the end of the day a level 20 caster is more powerful than a 16 caster with this feat at spells, they have more sp, higher dc, higher level spells and an extra feat to spend.

The only feat i can compare it to is spell pen. on the surface it seems to replace spell pen on a splash and I don't care as if spell pen is important then it their spell pen is still not going to be as good as a pure caster anyway who could have used the feat to purchase real spell pen

[jhorn02]

Actually, I've thought that something like this as a PrE would be more balancing. These are just examples and I haven't considered the balance of the particular

Practiced Spellcaster I would add 1 to the DC and 2 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster II would add 2 to the DC and 4 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster III would add 3 to the DC and 6 to the caster level

By taking the third level (and using a tremendous number of Action Points), I could create a 10/10 Cleric/Wizard that casts spells with the DC of a 13/13 and the duration and SP of a 16/16.

Again, I'm not advocating the particular numbers here...just giving them as an example of how this could look as an Enhancement versus a Feat.

[Samiusbot]

OK then let me flip the coin (play devils advocate). Why would you want this feat, you would have to give up something else inorderto get it so it's not like it's for free. Mostlikely whatever your going to list as why you want it is the reasoning behind why they feel it's so overpowered/unbalancing. Also I didn't know/read correctly that it only gave 4 levels so that invalidates my firewall example really other then a little more damage and longer duration.

Fast examples:

17clr/3x in heal mode of the shroud, and then goes to solo in the vale. This feat is just as handy for healing as it is for killing.

It might allow a arcane/divine caster to be more viable. Think mystic thurge like.

Strange multi class builds might be allowed to get in a pug. I have be denied many times in to a group because I didn't appear caster enough. A 7wiz/4 lvls of X is no longer some Newb that has no idea of the end game but might be a player building for the endgame.

See Impaqt's above example of the 12/6/2 a good build once he gets to 20 but along the way may look weak to many. The well I bet he has PSC and he can at least buff well may go from a no to a well lets see.

[Samiusbot]

Actually, I've thought that something like this as a PrE would be more balancing. These are just examples and I haven't considered the balance of the particular

Practiced Spellcaster I would add 1 to the DC and 2 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster II would add 2 to the DC and 4 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster III would add 3 to the DC and 6 to the caster level

By taking the third level (and using a tremendous number of Action Points), I could create a 10/10 Cleric/Wizard that casts spells with the DC of a 13/13 and the duration and SP of a 16/16.

Again, I'm not advocating the particular numbers here...just giving them as an example of how this could look as an Enhancement versus a Feat.

Not a bad idea, the reasons to have a AP cost vs a feat cost is one i did not have. However, would it being a line that they can glue to any casting class and have one for each casting class be better/less work?

Think a 7FvS/8sorc/5bard that would like to have PSC for each class, 3 feats vs, a ton of AP? I think the feats are more important but maybe i am wrong.

[dameron]

So even if I can only take it once, that still raised my Wall of Fire to L16, a Noticeable Improvement, Maxes out Spells like Fireball, Provides extra Missles for my Force missle type spells, Extends my Buffs further, and increses my Spell penn and caster level checks to a Useable level.

Still overpowering.

The extra damage it does it meaningless relative to empower and maximize, which are already in the game and widely used. Any caster that's using practiced spellcaster to max out his fireball isn't primarily a caster and probably doesn't have enough spell points to make spamming offensive spells worthwhile.

Topping off high level casters to help mitigate the penalty for multiclassing and giving gish type characters a bit of extra duration on their buffs isn't going to unbalance anything.

The only reason I can think they would consider this unbalancing would be they don't want tons of character with a single level of wizard casting extended "Shield" spells for 10 minutes a pop. Why they jealously guard that extra +4 shield AC is beyond me, but oh well.

[rimble]

The only reason I can think they would consider this unbalancing would be they don't want tons of character with a single level of wizard casting extended "Shield" spells for 10 minutes a pop. Why they jealously guard that extra +4 shield AC is beyond me, but oh well.

As mentioned, though, it only takes 1 Wizard level to effortlessly use Level 5 and Level 10 Shield wands. Sure, there's a bit of a resource cost to that, but they're not exactly rare.

[Aspenor]

So even if I can only take it once, that still raised my Wall of Fire to L16, a Noticeable Improvement, Maxes out Spells like Fireball, Provides extra Missles for my Force missle type spells, Extends my Buffs further, and increses my Spell penn and caster level checks to a Useable level.

Still overpowering.

It appears my definition of "overpowering" is quite a bit different than yours. You burn a feat to get all these benefits.

Practiced Spellcaster - not overpowered

Earth Spell - overpowered
What is earth spell you say? When standing on stone or earth and using heighten spell, treat the heightened spell as one level higher than it was heightened to. Add the difference between the original spells level and the new level due to heightening to your caster level. This means a Disintegrate heightened from 6th to 9th level is treated as a 10th level spell, and your caster level on a 20th level caster increases to 23.

:rolleyes:

[valorik]

multiclassing is already rediculously powerful... remove one of the cons and you're talking about serious unbalancing

[maddmatt70]

Easy.

12 WIz/6Fighter(Or Ranger)/2 Monk with 2 PSC Feats.

Full Melee capable with L20 Spell Casting ability.

My current build is rediculosuly effective as it is. Give me those 8 extra caster levels and I wouldnt play any of my other characters ever again.

In pnp they don't stack when you take more then one you apply the feat to another spell casting class. In your example the wizard caster level would be 16 and the second feat would be a wasted feat.

Edit: already been answered.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you OP it is not overpowering the best example I can think of is just a basic 18 wiz 2 monk or something of that nature but the wiz does not get the capstone which is a pretty significant penalty so there is a penalty to not going to level 20. The other builds are 12 cleric 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 wizard 6 ranger 2 monk that want higher dps on their blade barrior, firewall, and better healing on reconstruct and heal. I do not find the feat unbalancing for those builds either just useful. Most multiclass spellcaster builds could use a little more oompf anyway.

[dameron]

I agree with you OP it is not overpowering the best example I can think of is just a basic 18 wiz 2 monk or something of that nature but the wiz does not get the capstone which is a pretty significant penalty so there is a penalty to not going to level 20. The other builds are 12 cleric 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 wizard 6 ranger 2 monk that want higher dps on their blade barrior, firewall, and better healing on reconstruct and heal. I do not find the feat unbalancing for those builds either just useful. Most multiclass spellcaster builds could use a little more oompf anyway.

Even your 12/6/2 builds are only getting 3d6 extra out of blade barrier, which caps at caster level 15, and 3d10 out of heal and reconstruct, which also cap at 15th.

[Letrii]

It's not overpowered if you actually go by what it is supposed to do. It does NOT affect DC of spell. It ONLY affects your caster level, which influences range, duration, and spell effects.

[Phidius]

Doesn't sound over powered to me.

[taurean430]

On the surface that sounds pretty good for players like me who like the idea of fighter/mages. It doesen't appear to be to unbalancing at all really... more like a step in the right direction.

I am curious though about why they would feel that would be overpowering. Unless there are plans in the works to raise the level limit beyond 20? Granted, I am new to the game... but I still am highly annoyed at the hoops one must go through to build a fighter/mage. And, how bad it looks compared to a PnP version when playing this game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's not overpowered if you actually go by what it is supposed to do. It does NOT affect DC of spell. It ONLY affects your caster level, which influences range, duration, and spell effects.

And spell pen

[GeneralDiomedes]

They already have coded caster level increase with the Arcane Augmentation items. (Robe of Duality, etc.). So we know they can do it.

Making the feat choice sounds easy - simply have Practised Spellcaster feats for every casting class.

I'm not sure what there exact concerns are in terms of balancing. I'm guessing the DEVs have some kind of lingering multiclass phobia related to a barrage of forum rants by pure Paladins from ages ago.

If 4 is too powerful, simply make it 3 or 2. 2 would be similiar in power to the Spell Penetration feat. All would be mitigated by the fact you still can't increase your caster level beyond level cap.

Also, the capstones for arcane casters are quite powerful, so wouldn't adding this be balancing in a GOOD way?

[Krag]

The real reason is to give caster splashes (not wf) a bit of a break.

Lets compare a 2 level wiz splash to a 2 level monk splash as an example

Best you will get is a 4 min shield spell vs evasion and ac bonus.

Add practiced spell caster and you get 10 min shield spell and a few magic missiles (better have a magi item though)

It will make splashes a little more powerful, that is the purpose of feats to add power, no one takes a feat to make the character weaker.

And do not forget, 2 monk levels give you 2 feats and +3 to all saves.
On a wizard you get 1 feat but have to burn 2 feats which leaves you at -3 feats compared to monk splash.

[bobbryan2]

So even if I can only take it once, that still raised my Wall of Fire to L16, a Noticeable Improvement, Maxes out Spells like Fireball, Provides extra Missles for my Force missle type spells, Extends my Buffs further, and increses my Spell penn and caster level checks to a Useable level.

Still overpowering.

Yes, it will make your wall of fire do 4 extra points of damage. It would extend your blade barrier another 12 seconds or so, and will give you +4 spell pen (which you didn't rely on before, you're still -4 to another caster).

Explain overpowered.

[noinfo]

multiclassing is already rediculously powerful... remove one of the cons and you're talking about serious unbalancing

Multiclassing some classes is. Multiclassing casters is rediculously underpowered.

[Letrii]

And spell pen

Oops, thought I was missing something.

[Aspenor]

Overpowered -
Earth Spell
Divine Metamagic
The Incantrix Prestige Class
The Shadowcraft Mage prestige class (specifically the Shadow Illusion feature)
Anything required for creating Pun-Pun
The 3.5 Artificer class, as written

Not overpowered -
Practiced Spellcaster

:D

[Letrii]

They already have coded caster level increase with the Arcane Augmentation items. (Robe of Duality, etc.). So we know they can do it.

Making the feat choice sounds easy - simply have Practised Spellcaster feats for every casting class.

I'm not sure what there exact concerns are in terms of balancing. I'm guessing the DEVs have some kind of lingering multiclass phobia related to a barrage of forum rants by pure Paladins from ages ago.

If 4 is too powerful, simply make it 3 or 2. 2 would be similiar in power to the Spell Penetration feat. All would be mitigated by the fact you still can't increase your caster level beyond level cap.

Also, the capstones for arcane casters are quite powerful, so wouldn't adding this be balancing in a GOOD way?

My guess is they misunderstood how the feat works.

[flynnjsw]

While it would certainly make classes with other splashes a bit more prevalent; as the feat is written, I really don't see how it can be looked at as overpowered in the least. I would actually love to see this feat.

[Samiusbot]

The ease of coding the feat, however, is another issue altogether.

The combat log says what level the spell is at when you start to cast any given spell.
From a from a programing point of view it doesn't seam that hard to me.

The game already looks at your classes and the spell to find the class your casting from then applies heighten (if in use) to find your caster level for each spell at the time your casting.

How hard can it be to add a look for PSC feat for the class your spell is being cast from.
What is caster's current hit dice (level) and his caster level.
What is less hit caster's dice or caster level +4 use that as the base caster level for the spell.
Current code.

I mean it has to do some checks to give us that Casting X spell at lvl Y, right?

[Letrii]

Just remember, it is not a flat +4 to CL. It is up to +4 to CL, depending on how many other class levels you have besides the class to which this feat is applied.

[Happosaai]

This would be a very useful feat to add into the game. It is in no way overpowered. All the feat does is increase caster level. Yes, it would allow spells to do extra damage, last longer, or land when otherwise it wouldn't... but the increase is not very much at all.

The feat will increase a multi-classed caster's caster level by up to 4, not to exceed their character level.

This means a 2 Fighter / 1 Wizard would have a caster level of 3. He would not gain spell points or spells known as a 3rd level wizard.

A Wizard 18 / Rogue 2 would have a caster level of 20.

A Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 would have a caster level of 5. Again, no bonus spell points o spells known, just longer duration, higher SR checks, and in the case of a couple spells a little extra damage.

I am not seeing how this would be overpowered. It's a variable size caster level bonus, and costs a feat to get.

[Samiusbot]

Just remember, it is not a flat +4 to CL. It is up to +4 to CL, depending on how many other class levels you have besides the class to which this feat is applied.

You are right, I miss spoke above. Fixed!

Look for PSC feat for the class your spell is being cast from.
What is caster's current hit dice (level) and his caster level.
What is less hit caster's dice or caster level +4 use the smaller value as the base caster level for the spell.
Current code.


You want to use the smaller value as the base.

Level 7wiz/1clr the casting WoF would be like so.

Casting a wiz/sorc spell, have the PSC feat for Wiz? T/F

Casters total level == 8
caster lvl + PSC == 11

if (caster total level =< caster lvl + PSC)
use
else use caster lvl + PSC

[Angelus_dead]

I'm not sure what there exact concerns are in terms of balancing. I'm guessing the DEVs have some kind of lingering multiclass phobia related to a barrage of forum rants by pure Paladins from ages ago.
It would be logical to prohibit Paladin and Ranger casting from benefiting from Practiced Spellcaster, as the DDO versions of those classes already have twice the caster level as in D&D. However, even allowing it would not cause a balance problem, because the top levels of those classes now have sufficiently attractive features.

[Letrii]

Paladins and Rangers don't use half class level as caster level in DDO?

[Laith]

Paladins and Rangers don't use half class level as caster level in DDO?nope, they get full caster level. if they got half, many of their buffs would be virtually useless (resist 20 until level22, for instance).

[Samiusbot]

I just went over the posts so far and I don't see examples of abuse yet. I see people that like the idea and people that don't but no real examples of imbalance.

Can anyone think of some really too good things to do with this feat?

[Aesop]

nope, they get full caster level. if they got half, many of their buffs would be virtually useless (resist 20 until level22, for instance).

I think that's one of the things in Pathfinder that I liked. Pally and Ranger were Caster level minus 4 instead of 1/2

Aesop


oh yeha

Practiced Spellcaster is not overpowered at all. just useful.

If everything useful was considered overpowered we would be stuck with Sword and Board and Ranged combat as the only useable Combat Styles.

Aesop

[Noctus]

There seem to be some misconceptions flying around on how Practiced Spellcaster works.

* It does notraise the number of spells you can cast per day (here SP)
* It does notraise the number of spells you know (here spellslots)
* It does not raise caster level over what a pure character could have.
* It does not influence spell DC in any way.


The effect is:
* Spells will last longer if they have a duration.
* Damaging spells will deal more damage.
* Spell Penetration will be higher.


If you splash on a character with Practiced Spellcaster you still loose:
* Spell Points
* Spell Slots
* Get new spell levels later, or never if you splash more than 2 or 3 levels.
* Spell DC (less levels to heighten to)
* miss out on the usefulness on what could have been another feat.
---> a splashed cater´s casting power is still diminished, compared to his pure colleague.



Everybody should know what the effects really are, before they pass judgment.

[transtemporal]

I don't think this feat is blatantly overpowered... but it may be a little unbalanced. Its most pronounced at the two ends of the levelling spectrum, and for different reasons.

At low level, the damage and duration benefits are most pronounced. They're increased by as much as 400% (for a 1wiz/4ftr) with the benefit going down the more caster levels you have. Here a 1wiz/4ftr with the right feats can output as much damage as a 5wiz with caster staples like Niac's Cold Ray, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile. They don't have the sp or the spell selection of a 5wiz but they can put out comparable damage. I don't think this ones a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It gives a splash caster a decent damage and duration boost at low levels, that they'll quickly outgrow.

But at high level, a 16sor/2pal/2mnk (for example) basically gets a 4 point bonus to spell pen with this feat. Thats pretty substantial given that spell pen and greater spell pen give a combined bonus of 4. And if you build this right, you probably haven't sacrificed any DC and you have uber saves and evasion. Given the relatively lackluster 9th level spell selection, broken capstone and lack of PrE's, you're not giving up a lot really. That I think, is a little unbalanced.

That said, I think it could a toggleable metamagic with a modest cost, probably 10 to 15sp.

[noinfo]

I don't think this feat is blatantly overpowered... but it may be a little unbalanced. Its most pronounced at the two ends of the levelling spectrum, and for different reasons.



But at high level, a 16sor/2pal/2mnk (for example) basically gets a 4 point bonus to spell pen with this feat. Thats pretty substantial given that spell pen and greater spell pen give a combined bonus of 4. And if you build this right, you probably haven't sacrificed any DC and you have uber saves and evasion. Given the relatively lackluster 9th level spell selection, broken capstone and lack of PrE's, you're not giving up a lot really. That I think, is a little unbalanced.

That said, I think it could a toggleable metamagic with a modest cost, probably 10 to 15sp.

Of course you lose dc, you can only cast level 8 spells so a heighten spell is 8 not 9, provided you keep heighten because you have to find room for another feat (but who wouldn't) would you drop spell pen? quicken? max? Something in there has got to go and that is the ballance. And capstone has been fixed, bonus 20% I believe for sorcs now on top.

[winsom]

If that quote is one of the DDO Devs then he doesn't understand D&D or DDO game balance very well.

Practiced Spellcaster is not potentially imbalancing IF it is implemented correctly.

What this feat should amount to is extra spell duration (i.e. 3 minutes) or 3 extra dice of damage and +3 on caster level checks vs. spell resistance.

The character that takes Practiced Spell caster can only take it once per spell-casting class.

The final caster level is not allowed to be greater than the character's level. A wizard 18-Rogue 2 with Practiced Spell-Caster would have the spell slots of an 18th level wizard (unchanged) but his spells would cast at 20th level rather than 18th. He has to spend a feat to get that, so it is a fair trade-off.

Rangers and Paladins are supposed to cast at HALF class level rather than full class level. To cast a +4 Barkskin, I beleive that a ranger in D&D needs to be 18th level and not 9th as he is in DDO. It is silly when Devs talk about potential imbalance when they allow things like this. If this 18th level D&D ranger takes Practiced Spell-caster then his caster level would be 9 + 3 = 12th, which is enough for Barkskin +5.

11th level Rangers and Paladins are not supposed to be able to cast Resist Energy 30. The should have to be 22nd level or slightly lower with Practiced Spell-caster. I do not think that 11th DDO Rangers and Paladins being able to do Resist 30 is broken. It really doesn't matter in game. But it is a LOT more powerful than adding a Practiced Spell-caster feat into DDO. Being able to cast +4 and +5 barkskins at mid-level is a bit over-powered though. Druids are allowed to have +5 barkskins as they cast at full level. Rangers typically not because they cast at 1/2 level in D&D. But that point is moot when turbine devs add stacking Dodge +2, +3 and +4 items in the game. That ruins the AC game balance more than super-ranger barkskin.

[KristovK]

The only thing I can think of that would make PC overpowered are game engine mechanics.

My GUESS would be that in order to actually give a player +4 to their caster level the game would actually GIVE them 4 levels of that particular class in the engine. That would give them the extra spells/level, extra spell points, and increase DCs, and THAT would indeed be overpowered.

Mind you, this is only a guess but it's the ONLY thing I can see that would make this an overpowering feat.

Personally, I've been wondering why this feat wasn't included years ago, it's a feat anyone who does a Caster/non-Caster or ACaster/DCaster multi in PnP, especially with builds like the Mystic Theurge PrC. And this is the ONLY thing I can imagine that would be holding them back, since we know for a fact that they can increase specifics in a caster's power, ie - DC, effective caster level, spell pen, and spell points.

[Samiusbot]

Thank you for your examples. Keep them coming.

I don't see how a 16sor/2pal/2mnk casting the his spells at level 20 is all that overpowering. Or so strong that the feat should become toggle.

What FoD is almost as good as a full caster, almost. The few examples I have seen are 16casting class and 4 levels of other. But I don't see how compared with losing the capstone and the 3rd tear PrE, the top level spells and SP and costing a feat, how any of these 16/x are over powered.

I am still have hope that I will see an example that makes me go, okay that is broken!

Also I was talking to some friends in game, and someone said “I would love to see an overpowering example from the Devs.”

So please if a Dev is reading this jump in with an example please. Pm me whatever!

Thanks for you time all, and if you think of an example please let us know, I for one am super hopeful that this feat will be reconsidered and someday soon added to my game.

[Impaqt]

Thank you for your examples. Keep them coming.

I don't see how a 16sor/2pal/2mnk casting the his spells at level 20 is all that overpowering. Or so strong that the feat should become toggle.

What FoD is almost as good as a full caster, almost. The few examples I have seen are 16casting class and 4 levels of other. But I don't see how compared with losing the capstone and the 3rd tear PrE, the top level spells and SP and costing a feat, how any of these 16/x are over powered.

I am still have hope that I will see an example that makes me go, okay that is broken!

Also I was talking to some friends in game, and someone said “I would love to see an overpowering example from the Devs.”

So please if a Dev is reading this jump in with an example please. Pm me whatever!

Thanks for you time all, and if you think of an example please let us know, I for one am super hopeful that this feat will be reconsidered and someday soon added to my game.



Its quite obvious that you want this feat and simply dont see its effects as overpowering no matter what the example anyone gives. just because you say "Thats not overpowering" and "Its should be easy to code" doesnt make it so.

[Phidius]

...Given the relatively lackluster 9th level spell selection, broken capstone and lack of PrE's, you're not giving up a lot really. That I think, is a little unbalanced...

I think Wail, Energy Drain, and Otto's are actually quite tasty.

A 17 wiz could substitute Enervation for ED, but a Sorc 16 would be SOL for the other 2.

I'm trying to decide if this feat would be overpowered on a 17 Wiz/2 Rog/1 Ftr. On the one hand, you get the capstone. On the other hand, you get evasion, full trap skills, UMD, and combat abilities...

[Samiusbot]

Its quite obvious that you want this feat and simply dont see its effects as overpowering no matter what the example anyone gives. just because you say "Thats not overpowering" and "Its should be easy to code" doesnt make it so.

I do want this feat. And i just want an example that shows clearly that it is to good for ddo.

If you think it is overpowering, give me a clear example, I am man enough to say i am wrong if there is one. But you know that i have worked on this puzzle a long time and can not find an answer as to what is too good.

The water line in my mind may be too overpowering, maybe that is the issue. To me the the strongest is a selfhealing, good evasion, mob removal monster. I think of a WF Wiz/rog set up to fight hand 2 hand as well as top end casting. And even a small boost to this is not unbalancing as it costs a feat and only boosts the caster by to to 20.

Not "easy to code" is not really the issue yet, that is more of how the Devs design the code. But how i would lay it out it maybe fairly simple to code. But i am not a DDo Dev, so how there code looks and acts is not the problem.


I just want an example that i can look at and go, "oh your right that is too good".

I think it would be a good feat for new players that may have a less then stellar build, because of a lack of planing. I think it would be a good feat to make the different builds say i might not be as good as a full caster but i don't suck at X spells and be made into buffers.

So i will ask you, can you give me a to good example? then help me weigh the costs and and see if it is in fact "to good".

[Phidius]

Here's a question from a different perspective... are there existing feats that are worthless if you are pure because you are pure?

[kurand]

I do want this feat. And i just want an example that shows clearly that it is to good for ddo.

If you think it is overpowering, give me a clear example, I am man enough to say i am wrong if there is one. But you know that i have worked on this puzzle a long time and can not find an answer as to what is too good.

The water line in my mind may be too overpowering, maybe that is the issue. To me the the strongest is a selfhealing, good evasion, mob removal monster. I think of a WF Wiz/rog set up to fight hand 2 hand as well as top end casting. And even a small boost to this is not unbalancing as it costs a feat and only boosts the caster by to to 20.

Not "easy to code" is not really the issue yet, that is more of how the Devs design the code. But how i would lay it out it maybe fairly simple to code. But i am not a DDo Dev, so how there code looks and acts is not the problem.


I just want an example that i can look at and go, "oh your right that is too good".

I think it would be a good feat for new players that may have a less then stellar build, because of a lack of planing. I think it would be a good feat to make the different builds say i might not be as good as a full caster but i don't suck at X spells and be made into buffers.

So i will ask you, can you give me a to good example? then help me weigh the costs and and see if it is in fact "to good".

Not sure if this helps.

Imagine a sorc. with greater spell pen. and this feat and you would have a sorc with +8 to penetration checks right?now imagine that sorc. on a raid where his damage output would probably be far superior than what the devs would consider normal or balanced for any particular raid in the game atm.

I'm sure the devs are thinking about level 20 sorc. and wizards pumping out too much damage and making content trivial,at least to me as an experienced MMO player that is the first thing that popped into my mind.

[Krag]

Not sure if this helps.

Imagine a sorc. with greater spell pen. and this feat and you would have a sorc with +8 to penetration checks right?

Wrong.

[Samiusbot]

I think Wail, Energy Drain, and Otto's are actually quite tasty.

A 17 wiz could substitute Enervation for ED, but a Sorc 16 would be SOL for the other 2.

I'm trying to decide if this feat would be overpowered on a 17 Wiz/2 Rog/1 Ftr. On the one hand, you get the capstone. On the other hand, you get evasion, full trap skills, UMD, and combat abilities...


So casts at 20 lvl, evasion, full trap skills, UMD, and combat abilities, selfhealing, 920 base Sp five slots for 1-6 lvl spells, four 7lvl slots, three 8lvl slots, two 8lvl slots. And 2nd tear PrE, but can get all the enhancements other than PrE.

The 18 Wiz/2 Rog as it stands now has a 18 caster level and a few more spell slots, SP and the like. But is mostly the same. But lets look at a spells.

20 lvl casting vs 18
Wof 2d6+20 vs 2d6+18 we know that all the damage comes from enhancements and items so +2 might be a small boost.

Wail: might have a small boost to the spell pen for over coming SR. But having the 3nd tear PeR might make this a wash.
Energy Drain :it is over come the SR. Same as above.

Meteor Swarm: + 1 better save for the 20 lvl caster.

Dominate Monster: again SR as the only factor.
Hold Monster, Mass: feels like I am typing SR a lot.

Ok how about a damage spell?
Polar Ray: Strike a creature for 1d6/level (max 25d6) cold damage. So 2d6 less. That is a small difference.

But are any of these things better then a full wizard? I don't think so, they are all quality of life things or the same or much better for the 20 lvl wiz.
Evasion is great but people play with out is all the time.
UMD can be crossed classed in to a 39 with items and work.
Combat abilities your a 20 level wizard, you can be in combat if you want to be and the FoD if things get too nuts.
Selfhealing if a WF unchanged.

Oh and the nuts capstone.

See why I can't find a unbalanced example?

[Cyr]

Not sure if this helps.

Imagine a sorc. with greater spell pen. and this feat and you would have a sorc with +8 to penetration checks right?now imagine that sorc. on a raid where his damage output would probably be far superior than what the devs would consider normal or balanced for any particular raid in the game atm.

I'm sure the devs are thinking about level 20 sorc. and wizards pumping out too much damage and making content trivial,at least to me as an experienced MMO player that is the first thing that popped into my mind.

Considering that the feat only grants up to +4 caster level with a MAX OF YOUR HD a pure caster would gain NO benefit from the feat. Maybe the dev who answered the question had a similar basic misunderstanding of the feat in PnP?

To the OP no there is no build that I am aware of that I would call the feat over powered. It's best use would be in mostly pure builds of course 16+ levels of caster I would think to top out spell pen. That is hardly over powered. I could comment on the whole 12 wizard/8 other thing, but considering the difficulty they have in finding groups for high end content now I think that would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

[kurand]

Wrong.

Good explanation,your input was sorely needed.

[Samiusbot]

Not sure if this helps.

Imagine a sorc. with greater spell pen. and this feat and you would have a sorc with +8 to penetration checks right?now imagine that sorc. on a raid where his damage output would probably be far superior than what the devs would consider normal or balanced for any particular raid in the game atm.

I'm sure the devs are thinking about level 20 sorc. and wizards pumping out too much damage and making content trivial,at least to me as an experienced MMO player that is the first thing that popped into my mind.

You can't be a caster level above your hit dice (level for players) using this feat.

Also damage spells don't have to over come SR in ddo.

[kurand]

Considering that the feat only grants up to +4 caster level with a MAX OF YOUR HD a pure caster would gain NO benefit from the feat. Maybe the dev who answered the question had a similar basic misunderstanding of the feat in PnP?

To the OP no there is no build that I am aware of that I would call the feat over powered. It's best use would be in mostly pure builds of course 16+ levels of caster I would think to top out spell pen. That is hardly over powered. I could comment on the whole 12 wizard/8 other thing, but considering the difficulty they have in finding groups for high end content now I think that would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

Musta been a snap judgement then on their part if the spell penetration does not exceed the maximum caster level,that is unless as it was explained to them from wizards rulebook makers that it does.

[Samiusbot]

I could comment on the whole 12 wizard/8 other thing, but considering the difficulty they have in finding groups for high end content now I think that would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

It burns! It burns! Hmm bacon flavored?

[kurand]

You can't be a caster level above your hit dice (level for players) using this feat.

Also damage spells don't have to over come SR in ddo.

If you go back and read the spell description the +level gain information is only based upon your HD pertaining to how many extra levels you get,not as to the level limit of 20.

So as you read the feat description it would by it's description mean that you could cast spells as a level 24th sorc.which would technically be a +8 to spell penetration.

not +8 spell penetration,but +4 to the monsters resist to the spell based upon your level,that is if the game works based upon level like it seems to do.I.e. at level 8 you have a higher chance to hit level 4 mobs than a level 8 mob.(spell error and this part added).Still learning the game mechanics again,been a long time since I played.

[Pereghost]

Take the 16Sorc/2Pal/2Monk example with Practiced Spellcaster:

Lose:
No Capstone -20% Damage
No Tier 3 PRe
A few spells...mostly worthless but not all (1-7th, 2-8th, 3-9th i think)
Some Spell Points

Gains:
Full Level-based damage
Full duration
+12ish or so to all saves
1 Lay on hands for 100+
+30 hps
+2 more to saves from aura if no full paly around
1 net feat gain from Monk level
Evasion

It's more than likely I missed a few things on both sides but IMO that trade-off is slightly over-powered. It doesn't sound like you will. I'd prefer to not see that feat without some modifications to it

[Samiusbot]

If you go back and read the spell description the +level gain information is only based upon your HD pertaining to how many extra levels you get,not as to the level limit of 20.

For players lvl is number of hit dice.

But for a little more as to how it works.

From Spell Resistance:
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

From Practiced Spellcaster: (look at post 12 or 20 the whole feat for easy reading.)
Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

For example, a human 5th-level sorcerer/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his sorcerer caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his sorcerer caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice).

So a 20 lvl single class caster that would take this feat would not get any beneficial use. As his caster level equals the hit dice.

It only helps people that have levels in a class other than the casting class try to play catch up by 4 levels. For things that are based off of caster lvl. Like Spell Resistance and spell effects like damage and duration.

[Aspenor]

If you go back and read the spell description the +level gain information is only based upon your HD pertaining to how many extra levels you get,not as to the level limit of 20.

So as you read the feat description it would by it's description mean that you could cast spells as a level 24th sorc.which would technically be a +8 to spell penetration.

not +8 spell penetration,but +4 to the monsters resist to the spell based upon your level,that is if the game works based upon level like it seems to do.I.e. at level 8 you have a higher chance to hit level 4 mobs than a level 8 mob.(spell error and this part added).Still learning the game mechanics again,been a long time since I played.
No. This is not how it works. This feat ONLY benefits the multi-classed spell caster.

Take the 16Sorc/2Pal/2Monk example with Practiced Spellcaster:

Lose:
No Capstone -20% Damage
No Tier 3 PRe
A few spells...mostly worthless but not all (1-7th, 2-8th, 3-9th i think)
Some Spell Points

Gains:
Full Level-based damage
Full duration
+12ish or so to all saves
1 Lay on hands for 100+
+30 hps
+2 more to saves from aura if no full paly around
1 net feat gain from Monk level
Evasion

It's more than likely I missed a few things on both sides but IMO that trade-off is slightly over-powered. It doesn't sound like you will. I'd prefer to not see that feat without some modifications to it
That isn't even remotely overpowered, and considering your value of high level spells I question your judgement in general.

[Aspenor]

Its quite obvious that you want this feat and simply dont see its effects as overpowering no matter what the example anyone gives. just because you say "Thats not overpowering" and "Its should be easy to code" doesnt make it so.

And just because you and a dev that might not have a clue think it is overpowered doesn't make it so, either.

Come up with a concrete example of how it would be overpowered. If you are too lazy to make an example, then there's nothing wrong with the other side expressing their opinion in the same way.

[rimble]

Take the 16Sorc/2Pal/2Monk example with Practiced Spellcaster:

Lose:
No Capstone -20% Damage
No Tier 3 PRe
A few spells...mostly worthless but not all (1-7th, 2-8th, 3-9th i think)
Some Spell Points

Gains:
Full Level-based damage
Full duration
+12ish or so to all saves
1 Lay on hands for 100+
+30 hps
+2 more to saves from aura if no full paly around
1 net feat gain from Monk level
Evasion

It's more than likely I missed a few things on both sides but IMO that trade-off is slightly over-powered. It doesn't sound like you will. I'd prefer to not see that feat without some modifications to it

This build already exists. Practiced Spellcaster would provide +4d6 or so damage on some spells, +24 seconds or so on durations, and +4 Spell Pen...really it's probably the Spell Pen that's the most powerful aspect, so how about we just drop it in DDO, or half it?

Also, more spells WILL come, the cost of multi-classing like this will get relatively more and more expensive.

[Pereghost]

Ah Aspenor. I knew you'd chime in with some snippy remark. You just won me $10. Thanks!
I did say that not all were worthless btw....just most. :)

[Aspenor]

This build already exists. Practiced Spellcaster would provide +4d6 or so damage on some spells, +24 seconds or so on durations, and +4 Spell Pen...really it's probably the Spell Pen that's the most powerful aspect, so how about we just drop it in DDO, or half it?

Also, more spells WILL come, the cost of multi-classing like this will get relatively more and more expensive.
Spell penetration for this build isn't imbalancing because it lacks important, powerful spells that require the check;
Wail of the Banshee
Mass Hold Monster
etc.

[dameron]

Take the 16Sorc/2Pal/2Monk example with Practiced Spellcaster:

Lose:
No Capstone -20% Damage
No Tier 3 PRe
A few spells...mostly worthless but not all (1-7th, 2-8th, 3-9th i think)
Some Spell Points

Gains:
Full Level-based damage
Full duration
+12ish or so to all saves
1 Lay on hands for 100+
+30 hps
+2 more to saves from aura if no full paly around
1 net feat gain from Monk level
Evasion

It's more than likely I missed a few things on both sides but IMO that trade-off is slightly over-powered. It doesn't sound like you will. I'd prefer to not see that feat without some modifications to it

The only things they gain from Practiced Spellcaster are:

Full Level-based damage (which only help spells that don't max out at level 15)
Full Duration (which would be, in this case amount to extending a spell by 25%)

and

+4 to Spell Penetration

I don't think that's overpowered, especially since it doesn't give you what you're really missing from not taking those Sorcerer levels: the capstone, the level 18 PrEs, a 7th, two 8th, and three 9th level spell slots, and tons of mana.


So even if I can only take it once, that still raised my Wall of Fire to L16, a Noticeable Improvement, Maxes out Spells like Fireball, Provides extra Missles for my Force missle type spells, Extends my Buffs further, and increses my Spell penn and caster level checks to a Useable level.

Still overpowering.

I think I see your problem, you think the feat shouldn't provide a noticeable effect or make things more usable. What, do all your barbarian builds load up on Skill Focus: Perform?

[kurand]

edited.

[Calebro]

Take the 16Sorc/2Pal/2Monk example with Practiced Spellcaster:

Lose:
No Capstone -20% Damage
No Tier 3 PRe
A few spells...mostly worthless but not all (1-7th, 2-8th, 3-9th i think)
Some Spell Points

Gains:
Full Level-based damage
Full duration
+12ish or so to all saves
1 Lay on hands for 100+
+30 hps
+2 more to saves from aura if no full paly around
1 net feat gain from Monk level
Evasion

It's more than likely I missed a few things on both sides but IMO that trade-off is slightly over-powered. It doesn't sound like you will. I'd prefer to not see that feat without some modifications to it

This is a misleading example.
You haven't shown us what *practiced spellcaster* has given us, you've shown us what the *multiclass* has given us.
Only the orange was a result of the feat in question, but look at what you've given up.
The loss of the actual spells themselves is what's important.
Not to mention that this is a feat STARVED build to begin with! What would you be dropping in order to get this? That's also very important. Remember, this costs a feat, which are EXTREMELY valuable to casters (with the exception of Wizards, who have tons). This is even more true to the point on a multiclass caster, and these are the only ones that benefit from this feat.
So (with the exception of Wiz) an already feat starved build has to find a way to fit yet another feat in.
Not overpowered.

[noinfo]

This is a misleading example.
You haven't shown us what *practiced spellcaster* has given us, you've shown us what the *multiclass* has given us.
Only the orange was a result of the feat in question, but look at what you've given up.
The loss of the actual spells themselves is what's important.
Not to mention that this is a feat STARVED build to begin with! What would you be dropping in order to get this? That's also very important. Remember, this costs a feat, which are EXTREMELY valuable to casters (with the exception of Wizards, who have tons). This is even more true to the point on a multiclass caster, and these are the only ones that benefit from this feat.
So (with the exception of Wiz) an already feat starved build has to find a way to fit yet another feat in.
Not overpowered.

And while the wizard may not be feat starved by comparrison he is sp starved, not being pure gives up quite a few of those.

[TreknaQudane]

Practiced Spell Caster eliminates the need for going beyond 17 Wizard/Cleric or 18 Sorcerer/Favored Soul

You can then end up a fully evasive caster with full DCs and such. The loss in spell points is barely a hiccup given the number of items we have that grant more SP and the easy, now, of acquiring potions to restore SP.

[winsom]

I'm pretty sure Practiced Spell-caster is only +3 caster levels, not the +4 you guys are calculating.

I hope I'm remembering that correctly as I've leveled-up several Rogue/Wizard/Arcane-Tricksters in D&D.

That class-combo would be seriously-gimped without Practiced Spell-caster, as would others like Mystic Theurge. This is why the Practiced Spell-caster feat was created, to fix the character power "problem" that results in D&D when you multi-class a caster. It's not over-powered. It is necessary for the typical challenge-level that I see D&D played at.

[transtemporal]

Of course you lose dc, you can only cast level 8 spells so a heighten spell is 8 not 9, provided you keep heighten because you have to find room for another feat (but who wouldn't) would you drop spell pen? quicken? max? Something in there has got to go and that is the ballance.

Good catch, knew there was a -1 DC lurking around in there somewhere. I guess the 16th level caster would still need to pick up at least one of the spell pen feats in addition to PSC to be effective at endgame...

I guess what it basically comes down to are those 4 levels. What do you gain and what do you give up?

OK, I'm convinced. Not overpowered.

[QuantumFX]

OP: I think the developers either don’t know how to code this and are looking for an excuse or they truly don't understand how the feat works. In fact, the feat would be more balanced in DDO than in P&P thanks to 6/12/18 PrE splits and capstones.

[Letrii]

I'm pretty sure Practiced Spell-caster is only +3 caster levels, not the +4 you guys are calculating.

I hope I'm remembering that correctly as I've leveled-up several Rogue/Wizard/Arcane-Tricksters in D&D.

That class-combo would be seriously-gimped without Practiced Spell-caster, as would others like Mystic Theurge. This is why the Practiced Spell-caster feat was created, to fix the character power "problem" that results in D&D when you multi-class a caster. It's not over-powered. It is necessary for the typical challenge-level that I see D&D played at.

It is up to +4.

Anyone remember what book it is from?

[sephiroth1084]

Personally, I think that there is already too much incentive to multiclass, where the benefits gained tend to outweigh those that are given up. This feat would just further emphasize that.

Would it be horribly broken? Probably not, but it doesn't need to be egregiously excessive for it to still be too much.

[Hecore]

It is up to +4.

Anyone remember what book it is from?

^
|
Complete Arcane

IMO, the feat isn't overpowered - the most powerful example I can think of is a character with an 11 Cleric levels (Full Heal/BB, better Divine Favor and Divine Power duration) - and I still don't think it will make that combination OP. It would, however, make high level casters with a dip slightly better (though less powerful than their pure counterparts), and characters that dipped a casting class will be less gimped. It'll basically let some of the weakest characters become slightly more viable.

[Letrii]

^
|
Complete Arcane

IMO, the feat isn't overpowered - the most powerful example I can think of is a character with an 11 Cleric levels (Full Heal/BB, better Divine Favor and Divine Power duration) - and I still don't think it will make that combination OP. It would, however, make high level casters with a dip slightly better (though less powerful than their pure counterparts), and characters that dipped a casting class will be less gimped. It'll basically let some of the weakest characters become slightly more viable.

Thanks.

[aerieon]

Personally, I think that there is already too much incentive to multiclass, where the benefits gained tend to outweigh those that are given up. This feat would just further emphasize that.

Would it be horribly broken? Probably not, but it doesn't need to be egregiously excessive for it to still be too much.

I think the dev's are more concerned about not making an Overpowered mistake. Does that mean this is overpowered no, but after they did greensteel I'm sure they don't want to dip that heavy again. Maybe (shrug) the dev's don't want multiclassing to be very powerful, although after thinking and reading I don't see this feat doing that. Then again maybe the way the dev's would implement it is different then what the feat description should do.

[sephiroth1084]

I think the dev's are more concerned about not making an Overpowered mistake. Does that mean this is overpowered no, but after they did greensteel I'm sure they don't want to dip that heavy again. Maybe (shrug) the dev's don't want multiclassing to be very powerful, although after thinking and reading I don't see this feat doing that. Then again maybe the way the dev's would implement it is different then what the feat description should do.
I doubt that that is the case.

[Calebro]

And while the wizard may not be feat starved by comparrison he is sp starved, not being pure gives up quite a few of those.
Good point.

OP: I think the developers either don’t know how to code this and are looking for an excuse or they truly don't understand how the feat works. In fact, the feat would be more balanced in DDO than in P&P thanks to 6/12/18 PrE splits and capstones.
They know how to code it.
The proof is the Robes of Duality, which (I would imagine) are actually more complex to code because they only apply a caster increase to level 1 spells instead of all of them.

It is up to +4.

Anyone remember what book it is from?
Check it out. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster)

[Aesop]

Personally, I think that there is already too much incentive to multiclass, where the benefits gained tend to outweigh those that are given up. This feat would just further emphasize that.

Would it be horribly broken? Probably not, but it doesn't need to be egregiously excessive for it to still be too much.

I feel the opposite.

Multiclassing spellcasters is almost uniformly a bad idea. You lose spell slots, castings, possibly spell levels, duration, damage, spell penetration...

DDO has gone out of the way to weaken Multi Classing relative pure. Every update has some other reason to stay pure. Capstones and PrEs being the big ones. In PnP Multi Classing is significantly more powerful than it is here and if you want some of those nifty PrCs you are multiclassing.

The way its done here you are actively encouraged to stay the same.


Its coming to the point where the only real reasons people multiclass is for skill usage (usually UMD), Evasion, and personal taste. Those lower abilities are fairly set butthe Devs keep adding more to the top end of the classes because they feel that they aren't powerful enough relative to the lower levels. Which btw I feel is only true for non casters because of the DnD power scales

I mean +25% extra RoA with ranged vs EVERY other character in game is only balanced by the fact that Ranged combat is so **** slow that 25% is equivelent to maybe 10% for melee.

and don't splash more than 2 levels of anything or else you lose out on the many time OP third tier PrE abilities.

For people that like to build characters this is becoming rapidly more difficult to actually make characters that are fun viable and different. Its becoming very narrow in its scope... I don't like that. Maybe there needs to be more balance at the back end but I don't want the game to become about pretend choices where, yeah you could do something different but if you do you just gimped your character.

Aesop

[TheDjinnFor]

Many, many replies, of course, so in case I'm too late with this...

But +4 spell penetration for one feat would free up a feat slot for most sorcerers and clerics, assuming of course it turns a lvl 20 cleric/sorceror into an EL 24 clr/sor. If not, I would call it fairly useless except to take it low and then retrain out once you hit level 20.

[Noctus]

I feel the opposite.

Multiclassing spellcasters is almost uniformly a bad idea. You lose spell slots, castings, possibly spell levels, duration, damage, spell penetration...

DDO has gone out of the way to weaken Multi Classing relative pure. Every update has some other reason to stay pure. Capstones and PrEs being the big ones. In PnP Multi Classing is significantly more powerful than it is here and if you want some of those nifty PrCs you are multiclassing.

The way its done here you are actively encouraged to stay the same.


Its coming to the point where the only real reasons people multiclass is for skill usage (usually UMD), Evasion, and personal taste. Those lower abilities are fairly set butthe Devs keep adding more to the top end of the classes because they feel that they aren't powerful enough relative to the lower levels. Which btw I feel is only true for non casters because of the DnD power scales

I mean +25% extra RoA with ranged vs EVERY other character in game is only balanced by the fact that Ranged combat is so **** slow that 25% is equivelent to maybe 10% for melee.

and don't splash more than 2 levels of anything or else you lose out on the many time OP third tier PrE abilities.

For people that like to build characters this is becoming rapidly more difficult to actually make characters that are fun viable and different. Its becoming very narrow in its scope... I don't like that. Maybe there needs to be more balance at the back end but I don't want the game to become about pretend choices where, yeah you could do something different but if you do you just gimped your character.

Aesop


You are speaking right out of my Mind. Couldnt have expressed it better.

[Noctus]

But +4 spell penetration for one feat would free up a feat slot for most sorcerers and clerics, assuming of course it turns a lvl 20 cleric/sorceror into an EL 24 clr/sor. If not, I would call it fairly useless except to take it low and then retrain out once you hit level 20.

It does not.

It partially compensates some prohibitively high losses to your spellcasting power you incure through deviating from the path of the pure spell caster.

[kaidendager]

This is a misleading example.Not to mention that this is a feat STARVED build to begin with! What would you be dropping in order to get this? That's also very important. Remember, this costs a feat, which are EXTREMELY valuable to casters

Just wanted to point out that the two levels of monk would provide two feats (limited to monk abilities of course), but would allow for a swap of the sorc's toughness for the monk's class feat toughness and add practiced spellcaster for free in this case. The second monk feat is negligible and would likely have to be toughness again for a gain of 22 hp as well.

[leadhead]

I'm pretty sure Practiced Spell-caster is only +3 caster levels, not the +4 you guys are calculating.

I hope I'm remembering that correctly as I've leveled-up several Rogue/Wizard/Arcane-Tricksters in D&D.

That class-combo would be seriously-gimped without Practiced Spell-caster, as would others like Mystic Theurge. This is why the Practiced Spell-caster feat was created, to fix the character power "problem" that results in D&D when you multi-class a caster. It's not over-powered. It is necessary for the typical challenge-level that I see D&D played at.

I am on the fence. I like it, but what about the mechanics in DDO that are not in pnp? I am sure there are ways that I am not thinking of, but what about the DDO store? Players getting mana pots and rest shrines while in any quest. With all the money that many characters have, its not anything to them to go purchase copious amounts of mana pots to deal with the increase sp cost. On the other hand, they probably already do...but...I dont know.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Many, many replies, of course, so in case I'm too late with this...

But +4 spell penetration for one feat would free up a feat slot for most sorcerers and clerics, assuming of course it turns a lvl 20 cleric/sorceror into an EL 24 clr/sor. If not, I would call it fairly useless except to take it low and then retrain out once you hit level 20.

You don't understand how it works. It can not increase your caster level higher than your character level. It only helps MC builds.

[Samiusbot]

Many, many replies, of course, so in case I'm too late with this...

But +4 spell penetration for one feat would free up a feat slot for most sorcerers and clerics, assuming of course it turns a lvl 20 cleric/sorceror into an EL 24 clr/sor. If not, I would call it fairly useless except to take it low and then retrain out once you hit level 20.

You are not the first person to think that it would raise the caster level above 20. And many times this has been pointed out to be not right. But maybe that is the problem.

It is a tricky feat to really grasp, with a quick read. And maybe a misunderstanding the details of the feat, lead to its early removal from possibly becoming feat for ddo. IDK.

That sorc/pally/monk to me is just another 16/x splash, losing the best spells, Sp, damage, duration, Capstone to pick up another classes early abilities. As it was pointed out the best gains of making such a PC comes with the splashing of the other classes. PSC as a feat would try to help make the limited spells that the caster can use as close to on par with its single class brother. Even if the mut is always behind, in raw power.


I wanted to say thanks again, we have a good talk going here and I am still looking for a way that this would be “too good” for ddo.

[Calebro]

Just wanted to point out that the two levels of monk would provide two feats (limited to monk abilities of course), but would allow for a swap of the sorc's toughness for the monk's class feat toughness and add practiced spellcaster for free in this case. The second monk feat is negligible and would likely have to be toughness again for a gain of 22 hp as well.
Yes, it does. And yes, you very well may possibly take another Toughness with it.
So let's look at this:
You get a feat at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 & 18 + 2 monk = 9 feats
-vs-
a pure caster who gets 7 feats

But, as you stated, you'll probably take Toughness both times Or possibly Power Attack once.
For anyone unfamiliar with the concept, I'll state the obvious. This is obviously a build that has at least some focus on melee, but has it's main focus on spellcasting. As we also know, multiclass melee specced casters are extremely feat starved. In order to be an effective caster you absolutely require metamagic feats (I'd say minimum 3, more likely 4).
Assume the toon in question took both Toughness and Power Attack from Monk.
9 (original) - 3 [or 4] (metamagics) - 1 (PSC) - 1 (Toughness) = 3 [or 4] melee feats left, one of which is already spent on Power Attack.
What you're left with is a toon designed to wade into melee who only has 3 [or possibly 2] melee feat slots available.

Now lets look at the pure caster. We'll assume has has the same metamagic feats.
7 (original) - 4 (metamagic) = 3 [or 4] feat slots open to use as he wishes, most likely spent on feats to increase his casting power even more via Spell Pen, Spell Focus, etc.

Even without factoring in the difference in SP or spell loss the gap between the casting power become bigger and bigger.

Of the 9 most powerful spells the pure caster gets, the multiclass only gets 3 of them, and they're the weaker of the three. Once you factor in the loss of SP and other casting power via more spell focused feats, there's simply no way that a multiclass caster can compare in spellcasting power, EVEN WITH Practised Spellcaster figured in.

Those extra feats he got from Monk don't fill the gap. The extra feats he would have received from Wiz instead of Monk, as kaidendager kindly pointed out, is made up for in sheer caster power loss from so much SP missing.
Either way, Practiced Spellcaster has bridged that gap somewhat, it hasn't crossed it completely.

[transtemporal]

But +4 spell penetration for one feat would free up a feat slot for most sorcerers and clerics, assuming of course it turns a lvl 20 cleric/sorceror into an EL 24 clr/sor.

This is what I thought momentarily but it will only increase spell pen to your hit dice so it will never be more than +20, this means a caster will probably still have to take at least one spell pen feat to remain effective at end game. Having said that, I haven't tested this extensively with a level 20 caster in the current content to know whether its still really neccessary. I know it definitely used to be when the cap was 16.

[QuantumFX]

They know how to code it.
The proof is the Robes of Duality, which (I would imagine) are actually more complex to code because they only apply a caster increase to level 1 spells instead of all of them.

They know how to code in an increase to caster level. The tricky part is writing code to properly cap the benefits of the feat.

[Calebro]

They know how to code in an increase to caster level. The tricky part is writing code to properly cap the benefits of the feat.

There is already a similar coding in place.
Sorcs & FvS, with respect to how items that give extra SP work. This not only involves a [total hit die vs. caster hit die] check, but also involves an equation that results in only a percentage of this number being added.
Not the same, but similar. Figuring out how to code the cap shouldn't be that difficult. Again (it looks to my mind) that more complex coding than what we're asking for is already in place.

[Steiner-Davion]

Full Melee capable with L20 Spell Casting ability.

Not really a true statement. You still have the limited spell selection and mana pool.


It only raises caster level, it would not affect spell points or spells known/spell slots. The 5th level wizard would still be limited to 3rd level spells, he wouldn't get 5th level spells for having caster level 9. Only affect would be strength of the spells he can cast.

QFT



Actually I have to agree with their assements on it would be too overpowering. Basiclaly it would make hybrid casters as powerful spell wise as a full caster. Although I do have a very simple solution to it make it cost dramatically more per level it increases the spell so that it becomes a non isssue. Right now heighten only adds a few more sp's per level it increases it, make the practiced spell caster feat maybe cost 20 more spell points per added level (ok maybe i'm off on the amount but you can catch the drift). That way if you REALLY REALLY need to do that spell at a higher level you can assuming you have the spell points but it will cost and cost harshly so that you can only do it once unless you have suffecient levels in the caster to warrent it and mitigate the extra cost. Even with this example it would make a level 2 monk/rogue spash with a caster alot more viable and powerful (not that they weren't viable to begin with) but yet still add the added cost for those that choose to only have 7ishlevels in a caster while the rest is melee.

How so? The real power of a Spell Caster, is in


Their Known Spells (still limited in the case of a Multiclassed Caster).
The Number of spells memorized/day, or in the Case of DDO the number of Spell Points (again limited by their actual class level)


I personally would have no problem, with PC being a toggable Feat, like Extend or Hieghten, costing as much a spell of the highest possible level spell, that could be cast. IE in the case of the 5 Wizard, 3 fighter, 9 total levels, a PC'd Haste or Fireball, would cost as much as a level 5 Spell (before other Metamagics are applied).

[Mindspat]

How about if it were something like this?

Feat: Metamagic - Practiced Spell Caster (unlocks enhancement group)

PSC 1 - When active, spells are +1 Caster Level with an increased cost of x2.00 (1 AP)
PSC 2 - When active, spells are +2 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x3.00 (2 AP)
PSC 3 - When active, spells are +3 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x4.00 (3 AP)
PSC 4 - When active, spells are +4 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x5.00 (4 AP)


Then maybe add an enhancement chain which reduces the cost of this ability but requires a matching tier in the PSC Enhancement group for it to become available.

Practiced Spell Caster Effecientcy

T1 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .10% less spell points (1 AP)
T2 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .20% less spell points (2 AP)
T3 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .30% less spell points (3 AP)
T4 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .40% less spell points (4 AP)

[bobbryan2]

How about if it were something like this?

Feat: Metamagic - Practiced Spell Caster (unlocks enhancement group)

PSC 1 - When active, spells are +1 Caster Level with an increased cost of x2.00 (1 AP)
PSC 2 - When active, spells are +2 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x3.00 (2 AP)
PSC 3 - When active, spells are +3 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x4.00 (3 AP)
PSC 4 - When active, spells are +4 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x5.00 (4 AP)


Then maybe add an enhancement chain which reduces the cost of this ability but requires a matching tier in the PSC Enhancement group for it to be unlocked.

Practiced Spell Caster Effecientcy

T1 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .10% less spell points (1 AP)
T2 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .20% less spell points (2 AP)
T3 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .30% less spell points (3 AP)
T4 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .40% less spell points (4 AP)


Nah. We don't need more useless feats added.

[Samiusbot]

How about if it were something like this?

Feat: Metamagic - Practiced Spell Caster (unlocks enhancement group)

PSC 1 - When active, spells are +1 Caster Level with an increased cost of x2.00 (1 AP)
PSC 2 - When active, spells are +2 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x3.00 (2 AP)
PSC 3 - When active, spells are +3 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x4.00 (3 AP)
PSC 4 - When active, spells are +4 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x5.00 (4 AP)


Then maybe add an enhancement chain which reduces the cost of this ability but requires a matching tier in the PSC Enhancement group for it to be unlocked.

Practiced Spell Caster Effecientcy

T1 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .10% less spell points (1 AP)
T2 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .20% less spell points (2 AP)
T3 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .30% less spell points (3 AP)
T4 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .40% less spell points (4 AP)


I am sorry. You mean to say that this is so good that it needs a Feat, Action Points and a Sp cost?

Wow what if power attack was the same way?
Feat Power attack unlocks

PSC 1 - When active, attacks are -1atack +1 damage, you take 1 point of damage per hit(1 AP)
PSC 2 - When active, attacks are -2atack +2 damage, you take 2 point of damage per hit (2 AP)
PSC 3 - When active, attacks are -3atack +3 damage, you take 3 point of damage per hit (3 AP)
PSC 4 - When active, attacks are -4atack +4 damage, you take 4 point of damage per hit (4 AP)
PSC 5 - When active, attacks are -5atack +5 damage, you take 5 point of damage per hit (5 AP)

I mean we are talking a few more points of damage, and a small bump to overcome SR and a duration bump.

[chrislb20]

got tired of reading at post 50 or so so if anyone has given these examples i'm sorry.

12x x= fighter pally monk whatever and 8 ranger would give you full +5 barkskin and resist 30's for the fighter and monk

12 ftr 7 pally 1 something would also allow for full divine favor bonus along with resist 30 better lay on hands?
17 wiz 2 monk 1 rogue full caster level and spell penn on all spells would also allow the pale master prc to get full benefit from the touch attack.(yes loses capstone and third tier of prc)

14 pally 5 wiz 1 monk 18 minute shield quite a good length on haste and displacment.

just a few examples of something i might do with the feat would be quite powerful but overpowered?....

[Phidius]

...
12x x= fighter pally monk whatever and 8 ranger would give you full +5 barkskin and resist 30's for the fighter and monk


Considering that we still can't buy Barkskin +4 pots let alone +5, I think this is the culprit.

My question for the Devs, if this is the case, is why they consider +5 Barkskin on a <12 ranger to be so horribly overpowered?

Besides, I want to buy +4/+5 Barkskin pots :D

[Aesop]

got tired of reading at post 50 or so so if anyone has given these examples i'm sorry.

12x x= fighter pally monk whatever and 8 ranger would give you full +5 barkskin and resist 30's for the fighter and monk

12 ftr 7 pally 1 something would also allow for full divine favor bonus along with resist 30 better lay on hands?
17 wiz 2 monk 1 rogue full caster level and spell penn on all spells would also allow the pale master prc to get full benefit from the touch attack.(yes loses capstone and third tier of prc)

14 pally 5 wiz 1 monk 18 minute shield quite a good length on haste and displacment.

just a few examples of something i might do with the feat would be quite powerful but overpowered?....

Not spells wouldn't work... Those are specifically tied to class level not Caster Level

Just pointing it out

There are several good things that can be done with this feat, but I just see it as adding more interesting options not overpowering.

Aesop

[chrislb20]

Not spells wouldn't work... Those are specifically tied to class level not Caster Level

Just pointing it out

There are several good things that can be done with this feat, but I just see it as adding more interesting options not overpowering.

Aesop

Wizard Pale Master I
Prerequisite: Spell Focus: Necromancy, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Wizard Intelligence I, Level 6 Wizard
Cost: 4 AP
You are a devoted student of the necromantic arts. You gain 5 hit points as your flesh toughens, deal 25% additional damage with negative energy spells, and have a 3% chance for negative energy spells to generate a critical result for 1.5 times the normal damage amount. (Base spell critical chance is 0% and base critical damage multiplier is 1.5.). You can produce a touch-ranged negative energy effect at will, and can animate skeletons for a small cost.
Necrotic Touch (Free with Pale Master I)
You sheath your hand in crackling black flames, dealing 1d6 hit points of negative energy damage per caster level to a living creature. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Undead allies can be healed by this effect.


from the release notes says caster level not class level not overpowering still but it should work like all other caster level damage checks.

[Aesop]

... well I'll be :)

maybe it will work for that one then :)

Aesop

[gavagai]

First: release the PrEs for all classes up to tier 3, so we can multi intelligently.
Second: consider feats like Practiced Spellcaster and other multi-focused feats to add interesting options.

Personally I think PSC would be another nail in the coffin of non-warchanter bard. The 16/2/2 would have the same spell pen as the 20 for the irresistable dance, more feats to offset PSC, and would only lose +1/+1 on the song (a big deal for melees) and the capstone (meh). And given the Heroic Surge changes, how many bards are really going to feel 20 offers anything more than 16/2/2?

Not that this impact on bards would be so terrible. Just my 2 cents.

[Samiusbot]

Wizard Pale Master I
Prerequisite: Spell Focus: Necromancy, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Wizard Intelligence I, Level 6 Wizard
Cost: 4 AP
You are a devoted student of the necromantic arts. You gain 5 hit points as your flesh toughens, deal 25% additional damage with negative energy spells, and have a 3% chance for negative energy spells to generate a critical result for 1.5 times the normal damage amount. (Base spell critical chance is 0% and base critical damage multiplier is 1.5.). You can produce a touch-ranged negative energy effect at will, and can animate skeletons for a small cost.
Necrotic Touch (Free with Pale Master I)
You sheath your hand in crackling black flames, dealing 1d6 hit points of negative energy damage per caster level to a living creature. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Undead allies can be healed by this effect.


from the release notes says caster level not class level not overpowering still but it should work like all other caster level damage checks.

Necrotic Touch is technically a activated ability, not a spell so Practiced Spell Caster should not be factored in to the damage on this one. However, we have a lot of activated abilities that do use feats and what not to factor in saves and DCs so I don't see 4d6 more if you have 4 levels in another class over whelming.

It sounds more like a challenge, 2 feats and a lot of AP for 4d6?

[ApesAmongUs]

They know how to code in an increase to caster level. The tricky part is writing code to properly cap the benefits of the feat.
Why? Have they not mastered the intricate complexities of the "greater than" and "less than" symbols?

[Samiusbot]

Why? Have they not mastered the intricate complexities of the "greater than" and "less than" symbols?

I totally understand the complexity of the less than /greater than signs. I have also had to stop and think, the little alligator is hungry and wants to eat the bigger alligator. But with that in mind there should not be a problem.

That little memory aid has always been with me sense first grade.
Your welcome.

[Phidius]

... with me sense first grade...

You had almost convinced me of your vast wisdom... :D

[Samiusbot]

You had almost convinced me of your vast wisdom... :D

Are you mocking my poor spelling or my mad programing skills.

[Phidius]

Definitely the spelling - I can't help it, I taught in a high school 10+ years ago.

[Creddi]

Definitely the spelling - I can't help it, I taught in a high school 10+ years ago.

Bah, not sure what your problem is.. I was able to sense first grade from the womb!

[Jacoby]

Once again I say balance is NOT D&D. So long as Turbine thinks this way they will never reach the potential of this game. Balance is an aspect of WoW and I for one do not want a WoW like game.

[Samiusbot]

I totally understand the complexity of the less than /greater than signs. I have also had to stop and think, the little alligator is hungry and wants to eat the bigger alligator. But with that in mind there should not be a problem.

That little memory aid has always been with me since first grade.

Fixed? Mister Spellchecker?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Once again I say balance is NOT D&D. So long as Turbine thinks this way they will never reach the potential of this game. Balance is an aspect of WoW and I for one do not want a WoW like game.

Balance is a good idea in any MMO because there is no human DM to balance gameplay for them. How many overpowered examples of PnP gameplay or character builds do people come up with and then say "Oh but in our campaigns the DM wouldn't have allowed it".

Turbine has thankfully learned that lesson and not followed PnP to the letter.

Having said that .. there still haven't been any convincing arguments as to why some implementation of the feat (not necessarily to the letter of PnP) would be OP.

[Mindspat]

I am sorry. You mean to say that this is so good that it needs a Feat, Action Points and a Sp cost?

Wow what if power attack was the same way?

I mean we are talking a few more points of damage, and a small bump to overcome SR and a duration bump.

We already have Enahncements that are unlocked by Feats. We even have Enhancements that require multiple pre-req's to unlock. Not to mention that there are also enhancements that modify Metamagics. And Power Attack does function in a very similar way; negative to attack for each point of dmg with enhancements taken to compensate for the negative to hit.

If you seriously intend to see this implemented maybe you should try a constructive approach. For instance, you could have made a suggestion to the fictitous Feat/Enhancemnts I posted such as increasing the maximum 4 spell level increase to something slightly higher.

Personaly, I would rather see a Feat and Enhancement chain that increased the DC of a particular school of Arcane Magic beyond what's currently available.

I appolgize for attempting to be proactive in your rant.

[sirgog]

Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rog 1

Full spell penetration.
Full spell durations.
Full spell damage.

That char would already be tight on feats but I could squeeze it in for a stout offensive caster.

Yep. They'd also no longer lose the 5-15% to healing spells (Mass Heal is 15%, Mass Cure Critical about 5%, Heal is unaffected) from having a lower caster level.

I'd take Practiced Spellcaster in a heartbeat on my Clr18/Ftr2 for no reason other than the extra healing output - and I'd only be getting half the possible benefit. I think that indicates it's overpowered.

[bobbryan2]

Yep. They'd also no longer lose the 5-15% to healing spells (Mass Heal is 15%, Mass Cure Critical about 5%, Heal is unaffected) from having a lower caster level.

I'd take Practiced Spellcaster in a heartbeat on my Clr18/Ftr2 for no reason other than the extra healing output - and I'd only be getting half the possible benefit. I think that indicates it's overpowered.

Heal and Mass heal cap out at 150 pts at 15th level.

So... no, you wouldn't take it for increased healing output on those spells.

[krud]

I don't think it would be overpowering, but there would be no reason not to multiclass a cleric once they hit level 17 (unless they get an awesome tier 3 PrE - which i doubt).

17clr/1wiz/2mnk - extra metamagic feat, evasion, 2 monk feats. full cleric casting ability.

12clr/6rgr/2mnk - tempest battle cleric would be neato :D

[Tobril]

I totally support this feat making the cut for an upcoming mod, with one modification:

Race Absolutely Excluded: Halfling

[Schwarzie]

How about if it were something like this?

Feat: Metamagic - Practiced Spell Caster (unlocks enhancement group)

PSC 1 - When active, spells are +1 Caster Level with an increased cost of x2.00 (1 AP)
PSC 2 - When active, spells are +2 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x3.00 (2 AP)
PSC 3 - When active, spells are +3 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x4.00 (3 AP)
PSC 4 - When active, spells are +4 Caster Levels with an increased cost of x5.00 (4 AP)


Then maybe add an enhancement chain which reduces the cost of this ability but requires a matching tier in the PSC Enhancement group for it to become available.

Practiced Spell Caster Effecientcy

T1 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .10% less spell points (1 AP)
T2 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .20% less spell points (2 AP)
T3 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .30% less spell points (3 AP)
T4 - The Practiced Spell Caster Metamagic costs .40% less spell points (4 AP)


As it was pointed out dozens of times, Practised spellcaster DOES NOT increase your casterlevel above your characterlevel. Its sole purpose is to decrease the gap between Multiclassed and Pure classed Casters (and the multis surely need a buff throughout all the Stuff they added to the last levels or the capstones...)

Your Enhancementline provides and overall Buff to Casterlevel, with this you could nearly use the Damage cap on Polarray (25D6 on CL25). Your enhancement would be usefull for a Fullcaster, Practised spellcaster is only usefull for multiclassed ones.


Heal and Mass heal cap out at 150 pts at 15th level.That is wrong, Mass Heal caps at CL25.

@Krud
You would not have the full cleric casting ability. Compared to a Full cleric you lack Spellpoints (less of an issue due to Torq, Bauble and Epic Spellstoring Ring) some 9th level and 8th level slots, and the Capstone. This capstone is actually very usefull in the abotraid which maks Clerics in there much more powerfull than a FvS.

[Samiusbot]

Cure Serious Wounds, Mass as a caster cap of 35 level so indeed there would be a +1to +4 hit point improvement in the spells healing damage.

I went ahead and looked up Cure Mod Wounds, Mass lvl 10 cap, and Cure Light Wounds, Mass lvl 25 cap.

Heal, Mass has a max healing damage cap of 150hp so is not effected by PSC.

So on a 16/x, 17/x or a 18/x we do have a bump in healing, good point. But only for spell like Cure Light Wounds (Mass) and Cure Serious Wounds (Mass).


But lets be upfront, the spells that really get helped by this feat are removal spells. Spells that need to over some SR, like Finger of death and Destruction, and what not. Other spells are helped. Damage spells like WoF get a +4 at max damage boost, others might get as much as 4d6. Spells that have duration (Haste and other buff spells, as well as damage dealing spells that do damage over time.


However, I believe most people that think the feat is too good, use the SR boost as the main reason that this feat is too strong.
And they are kinda right, the boost to over coming SR can be a lot (up to +4 to the same as a single class caster). But casting that spell is a much larger % of the multi-class casters SP pool then the single class caster. And just having that spell is a larger % of their available spells. When at max you have 3 spells slots having a spell in that one slot is 33% of your pool, vs 5 spells slots being 20%.

When investing so much in to a single spell you want the best chance to have it land. And all single class casters know that overcoming SR in the end game can be a battle. Where a even a fighting chance takes feats, and many AP, and the right gear.
By not having this feat we more or less are saying all SR spells are pointless for the multi-class caster, And therefor limiting their options as casters.

For any that think I am too ranty, I will admit I feel strongly about this removing limits and adding options. It is something we need to do to add diversity to the game.

I asked for an example of this feat doing something so good we look at it and say, that is too good. And I haven't seen that example yet. I have seen a lot of good ways to use this feat and how it might be used in game but no overpowering example yet.

So I ask again, what is your best way to break this feat?

[chrislb20]

As it was pointed out dozens of times, Practised spellcaster DOES NOT increase your casterlevel above your characterlevel. Its sole purpose is to decrease the gap between Multiclassed and Pure classed Casters (and the multis surely need a buff throughout all the Stuff they added to the last levels or the capstones...)

Your Enhancementline provides and overall Buff to Casterlevel, with this you could nearly use the Damage cap on Polarray (25D6 on CL25). Your enhancement would be usefull for a Fullcaster, Practised spellcaster is only usefull for multiclassed ones.

That is wrong, Mass Heal caps at CL25.

@Krud
You would not have the full cleric casting ability. Compared to a Full cleric you lack Spellpoints (less of an issue due to Torq, Bauble and Epic Spellstoring Ring) some 9th level and 8th level slots, and the Capstone. This capstone is actually very usefull in the abotraid which maks Clerics in there much more powerfull than a FvS.


total cheese other than this exploit the capstone is mostly useless.

[bobbryan2]

That is wrong, Mass Heal caps at CL25.

Hovering over Mass Heal right now:

restore 10 hit points per caster level (max 150)

Are you saying it doesn't work like the tooltip, or that it shouldn't work like the tooltip? Because in game documentation says level 15.

[Schwarzie]

Hovering over Mass Heal right now:

restore 10 hit points per caster level (max 150)

Are you saying it doesn't work like the tooltip, or that it shouldn't work like the tooltip? Because in game documentation says level 15.

My Bad, answered on Ruleknowledge and didnt verify that ingame. It SHOULDNT work like in the tooltip.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm


This spell functions like heal, except as noted above. The maximum number of hit points restored to each creature is 250.

EDIT: Thanks for the Neg Rep btw, its not my fault that the Devs can't read a rulebook.

[chrislb20]

My Bad, answered on Ruleknowledge and didnt verify that ingame. It SHOULDNT work like in the tooltip.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm


EDIT: Thanks for the Neg Rep btw, its not my fault that the Devs can't read a rulebook.


wasn't me that gave u neg rep obviously but it is your fault for answering something ingame that you weren't sure of this isn't pnp lots of stuff isn't the same the sooner people realize that the better the game is.

[KKDragonLord]

I see there are a lot of misconceptions about what Practiced Spellcaster does. No, you cannot take 2 of them and make a 12/6/2 build into a L20 wizard. The feat does not grant spell levels, only caster levels. You gain no spells, and the benefits are only for duration, spell resistance checks, and for purposes of "per caster level" features.

The feats are, actually extremely well-made as written.

In DDO, this means that it grants no spell points, spell levels, or spells. It would grant up to a +4 bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, up to for caster levels for spell duration purposes, up to 4 caster levels for spell "per level" mechanics (such as damage). This feat would not imbalance the game at all.

The ease of coding the feat, however, is another issue altogether.

I cant belive this feat was believed to be unbalancing, its perfectly fine, it has plenty of downsides but still allows for lots of new builds to come about... honestly i cant think of a better feat to add atm.

[Doxmaster]

4 pages of people unable to read, unable to listen and willing to insult others to 'win' an internet argument that they lost automatically when they misunderstood the feat. I kinda had to skip the rest..."gettign wizard/cleric to level 24/24 with this feat is OP!!!" would break my brain if I read it a few more times.

...

Any chance the DEVs could hack their own forums and force what everyone is talking about to flash on the forum, so people HAVE to read it, leading to more people who kinda know what they are talking about? Not even knowing about what the feat you ask for/argue against is...well...sad.

~~

Anyway, the feat would be odd if implemented; It would be required for any mage multiclasser, and allow offensive casters to reach spell penetration and damage levels of pures. They wouldnt get all the spells of a pure...but they could probably work around it. A slight boost most of the time...2d6 damage total, or +3 to spell penetration and +1 or 2 to DC, but in endgame, that is often all you need.

We're talking about a player base that figures out exactly what stacks, for how long, to get the exact maximum number of possible swings with a single build. And how to get exactly the highest strength for that same build. These guys would kill their best friend for +1 to anything, DC, strength, int...(pale master lich form, for example. No one seems to like it, but...ya.)

You might think it wouldnt be worth it. Look at the posts complaining that they only get nine thousand and one strength for forty seconds, instead of nine thousand and two.

Furthermore, if everyone is as confused as they seem to be here, if it is implemented those people, unable to read what it does and unable to understand posts explaining what it does, will have to wait until a DEV shows up at their house, builds their character with and without the feat, then explains really slowly while showing exactly how it works. For a day or two.

Not worth it in my opinion.

[Cylinwolf]

4 pages of people unable to read, unable to listen and willing to insult others to 'win' an internet argument that they lost automatically when they misunderstood the feat.

...followed by one person who feels the need to keep an argument from five months ago going.

[Phidius]

...followed by one person who feels the need to keep an argument from five months ago going.

And I appreciate it, believe me :D

Now that Tempest1 is less attractive than before, those BattleCasters who went with Tempest now find themselves wtih 3 more feats than they had before...

1. Practiced Spell Caster
2. Spell Penetration
3. Greater Spell Penetration

For a total of +8 to penetrate Spell Pen :D

[Doxmaster]

Hey...I got linked to it. Though I will admit there is indeed egg on my face now. Still, it's relavent. Necro'd for a good cause, I believe (Gotta make sure to check links more carefully from now on.)

[Phidius]

Hey...I got linked to it. Though I will admit there is indeed egg on my face now. Still, it's relavent. Necro'd for a good cause, I believe (Gotta make sure to check links more carefully from now on.)

I wasn't being sarcastic, truly... I was thinking about reopening it a few days ago.

I'm just glad you took the blame for the necro instead of me :D

[ClericDude]

I'm glad I'm not the one that necro'd it, too. Anyway @ the people saying Mass Heal caps at 150. The tooltip says that it does, but experimentation in game shows that it does not. I can only confirm that it goes up to at least caster level 19 (at 17 w/ Radiant Servant 2, I'm getting Mass Heals of 190 * 1.4 = 266 with just Life Magic 4 enhancing it).

Also, people were really only referring to Wiz/Sorc for the most part. I know that 18/2 Clr/Mnk is very common for the boosts they get and the primary argument for staying pure cleric is the SR. You can do without Summon Monster IX and maybe True Res. Sirgog was right about the healing and he didn't even mention the other parts because it wasn't necessary - it was already good enough to justify the feat without needing to even bring in several of the benefits.

Practiced Spellcaster may not be overpowered for wizards, but it is for clerics.

[Samiusbot]

Oh, baby!

Lets get this going again. I want my feat already!

So any new examples of that overpowered build that makes PSC too good for DDo?

[Phidius]

Oh, baby!

Lets get this going again. I want my feat already!

So any new examples of that overpowered build that makes PSC too good for DDo?

How about the 17 Cler/3 monk? What balances this feat on such a build against going pure?

[EKKM]

How about the 17 Cler/3 monk? What balances this feat on such a build against going pure?

Access to 3 more level 9 spells? I use all of the level 9 spells on my cleric pretty regularly - implosion, mass heal, summon, TR, energy drain. 17 only gets 2 of those. I can see summon not being worthwhile but which two of implosion, TR and energy drain do you not take?

Even at 18 You lose one of those (likely TR) which means you follow a res with a heal.

I don't think the feat is overpowered at all. If the devs think it is then only allow it to up CL by 2.

[Calebro]

My opinion is that no one can give an example of why it would be overpowered because it wouldn't be.
The feat is very well written and implemented in PnP, and would be here as well. It is actually less powerful here than it would be in PnP, as the loss of spell points and spell slots would be more apparent here than in PnP.

In order to really get you money's worth out of the feat, you have to splash a few levels of an/other class/s. Preferably 4 levels of non-caster if you really wanted to get the most from it. But doing this in DDO isn't nearly as good of an idea as it could have been in PnP. In DDO the best break would be 2 or 3 levels, so you'd still get 9th level spells.
The most effective uses that I can think of are:
1 rogue / 2 monk / 17 wiz (or cleric)
2 rogue / 18 wiz
2 pally / 18 sorc
2 monk / 18 FvS (or cleric)
3 monk / 17 cleric

Mind you, these are the most powerful builds that I could think of that would benefit the most from this feat. There is a much more narrow range of builds that would truly get the most from multiclassing a caster in DDO than there was in PnP, even if this feat were introduced. The loss of spell slots and spell points is much more pronounced in DDO than it was in PnP. This feat would help to bridge the gap in individual spell power somewhat, but it certainly wouldn't close the gap completely in a spellcaster's general power.

[Phidius]

I agree with you, but if we present a unified front of acceptance of this feat, Turbine will never give it to us. If they see a possibility of someone getting butt-hurt by it, maybe they'll give it to us.

Access to 3 more level 9 spells? I use all of the level 9 spells on my cleric pretty regularly - implosion, mass heal, summon, TR, energy drain. 17 only gets 2 of those. I can see summon not being worthwhile but which two of implosion, TR and energy drain do you not take?

Even at 18 You lose one of those (likely TR) which means you follow a res with a heal.

I don't think the feat is overpowered at all. If the devs think it is then only allow it to up CL by 2.

I'd drop Energy Drain and TR. If someone needs the full health restore of the TR to survive, it would only delay the inevitable. After all, they have control over when and where they take the raise...

Practiced Spellcaster would basically give the 17/3 the wizard capstone (+2 Wis, healing curse to stretch out spell points) and evasion without impacting the cleric's casting ability.

[ElfedLied4]

It seems that those arguing for the practiced spell caster feat think that it gives no useful benefit. Any example of it's power is met with a "That's hardly noticeable". For me, I was thinking about creating a wiz/rog recently. The most important loss was the SR but the gain was evasion, trap skills, and UMD. That gain/loss is pretty evenly balanced as shown by successful and happy players with both builds. If this feat went live, there would be almost no reason to go pure wiz.

So, since you're going to say that "the multiclass provided the gain, not the feat", I just want to know why you want the feat? What would you do with it? It's useless, right? You've stated again and again that spell duration and damage dice are worthless and you've also denied the benefit of SR since it "costs a feat".

At the very least, please acknowledge that on an 18/2 it provides a greater benefit (equal boost to SR and then additional) than 2 existing feats (Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen). Those 2 existing feats are often taken and can be considered more important for splashed casters than pure.

[Calebro]

It seems that those arguing for the practiced spell caster feat think that it gives no useful benefit. Any example of it's power is met with a "That's hardly noticeable". For me, I was thinking about creating a wiz/rog recently. The most important loss was the SR but the gain was evasion, trap skills, and UMD. That gain/loss is pretty evenly balanced as shown by successful and happy players with both builds. If this feat went live, there would be almost no reason to go pure wiz.

So, since you're going to say that "the multiclass provided the gain, not the feat", I just want to know why you want the feat? What would you do with it? It's useless, right? You've stated again and again that spell duration and damage dice are worthless and you've also denied the benefit of SR since it "costs a feat".

At the very least, please acknowledge that on an 18/2 it provides a greater benefit (equal boost to SR and then additional) than 2 existing feats (Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen). Those 2 existing feats are often taken and can be considered more important for splashed casters than pure.
I won't argue with any of this except what's been colored orange.
I'm for the feat, and I know the benefits associated. The actual spells lost are the important part.
Everything else you said is correct.

Yes, it would be powerful. But would it be OVERpowered? That's the question. I don't think it would.

[Gercho]

I won't argue with any of this except what's been colored orange.
I'm for the feat, and I know the benefits associated. The actual spells lost are the important part.
Everything else you said is correct.

Yes, it would be powerful. But would it be OVERpowered? That's the question. I don't think it would.

I think it wont be overpowered for rare builds, and will encourage them which is good, i m just afraid that 2 (or 3) lvls splash dominate pure casters. A lot of people takes 18/2 splashes over pure casters, this feat will make even more people go this way... will tip the scales? hard to tell...
The way i would do it is: gives 4 more casting lvls, max total lvl-2, so its good for heavy multiclasses, but not for minor splashes...

[quietkey0]

Sorry, once I realized it was an old thread, I skipped to the end to see the recent comments. I did see lot of people talking almost completely about the benefits to the feat for multiclassers. That's all well and good, and I can see benefits and drawbacks to both sides of that discussion.

My 2cp...

HOWEVER...Would not the largest benefit go to a pure caster? Say a capped 20 wiz/sorc/cleric? A pure wizard running the Spell Penetration line, who then added on Practiced Spellcaster feat would be casting at a what, Caster Level 29 or so, all added together? I know most spells cap off at a certain amount of dice if you're going to HP damage, but seriously, if built right wouldn't your level 20 x be casting at over 30? Possibly spells from two different schools, depending on the feats selected? As much as that would be awesome to play around, unless I'm completely missing something, that is really where the feat becomes radically overpowered. If I'm correct about that, then would not that rapidly become the build that EVERY caster has to have or they're 'gimped', kinda like lately many incorrectly assume the same about any cleric that didn't respec to get the Aura.

I'm still relatively new here, (4 chars from 10-11, highest being an 11) so it's very possible that I could be missing something. If so, please let me know, because I know things do change dramatically at end levels, so perhaps I'm speaking from inexperience and am way off base. If I am, I'd appreciate an explanation as part of my learning process.

Thanks!

Edit: I still get a bit mixed up on the difference between 3.5 and DDO. My calculations could be off, but this is what I was thinking, and some may not apply, as this is directly from 3.5.

PRACTICED SPELLCASTER - Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class
increases by 4. This benefi t can’t increase your caster level
to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can’t
benefi t from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain
Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be
able to apply the rest of the bonus. (key point with this next)
For example, a human 5th-level sorcerer/3rd-level fi ghter who
selects this feat would increase his sorcerer caster level from 5th
to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fi ghter level,
he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his sorcerer caster
level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice).

SPELL PENETRATION [GENERAL]
Your spells are especially potent, breaking through spell resistance
more readily than normal.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on caster level checks (1d20/caster level) made to overcome a creature’s spell resistance

GREATER SPELL PENETRATION [GENERAL]
Your spells are especially potent, defeating spell resitance more readily than normal
Prerequisite: Spell Penetration
Benefites: You get a +4 modifier on caster level checks to beat a creatures spell resistance. This supersedes (does not stack with) the bonus from Spell Penetration.

I already see one thing I got incorrect. One difference in DDO is this: You can't specialize in a school, at least not like in D&D. Thus, you can't add in the (what I believe was) +2 bonus from the specialization in a school (I'm so beginning to love the specialized transmuter wizard in D&D) . So. Caster level 20+4 (Practiced) +4(Greater SP, no stacking from lower SP version) would give a BASE caster level of 28. Does DDO add in the int/wis/cha (whichever is main stat for caster) modifier bonus for the DC as well? If so, wouldn't that equal a 28+Int/wis/cha bonus+Spell level = approximately a minimum DC of 35ish (assuming only a +4 mod for main stat, which is obviously going to be considerably higher) for a level 2 spell? <28+4+2=34> Which can then be further enhanced by metamagic? (or do the calculations for DC work differently in DDO?)

Now, that (as someone who has not yet seen anything above GH) seems to be insanely powerful. As things scale exponentially at the top levels, would numbers like that actually be mediocre? I mean, are there many monsters out there who have an SR of 35? If so, how high do the SR numbers scale, so I know what to expect down the road?

Thanks!

[Calebro]

HOWEVER...Would not the largest benefit go to a pure caster? Say a capped 20 wiz/sorc/cleric? A pure wizard running the Spell Penetration line, who then added on Practiced Spellcaster feat would be casting at a what, Caster Level 29 or so, all added together?

No.
The feat simply allows (up to) four non-caster levels to be counted as a caster level for determining any level based effects of the spell and spell pen. It will not allow you to raise your caster level beyond your hit dice.
It does absolutely nothing for pure casters because their caster level already equals their hit dice.

[Calebro]

So. Caster level 20+4 (Practiced) +4(Greater SP, no stacking from lower SP version) would give a BASE caster level of 28.
Wrong. As I explained above (probably while you were editing your post) a pure caster would be caster level 20. Or caster level 24 with Greater Spell Pen. Practiced Spellcaster basically just lets you *pretend* that any non-caster levels (up to four) are caster levels, but you can't go higher than 20 with this alone under any circumstances.
1 wiz / 4 fighter casts as a 5th level wiz, but only has the spells and SP of a 1st level wiz.
16 wiz/2 rogue / 2 fighter casts as a 20th level wiz, but only has the spells of a 16th level wiz.
wiz 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 casts spells as a 16th level wiz, but only has the spells of a 12th level wiz.
7 wiz / 1 rogue / 2 monk casts spells as a 10th level wiz (7+4=11, but he's only 10th level), but only has the spells of a 7th level wiz.
18 wiz / 2 rogue casts as a 20th level wiz (18+4=22, but he's only level 20), but only has the spells and SP of an 18th level wiz.
Does DDO add in the int/wis/cha (whichever is main stat for caster) modifier bonus for the DC as well? Yes, but.... see below. If so, wouldn't that equal a 28+Int/wis/cha bonus+Spell level = approximately a minimum DC of 35ish (assuming only a +4 mod for main stat, which is obviously going to be considerably higher) for a level 2 spell? <28+4+2=34> Which can then be further enhanced by metamagic? (or do the calculations for DC work differently in DDO?)
Practiced Spellcaster does not affect DCs in any way, as your caster level has nothing to do with DCs. DCs are formulated by Spell level + stat mod + gear + Spell Focus feats. Nowhere in this equation is the caster level checked, so Practiced Spellcaster does not affect it at all.
Now, that (as someone who has not yet seen anything above GH) seems to be insanely powerful. As things scale exponentially at the top levels, would numbers like that actually be mediocre? I mean, are there many monsters out there who have an SR of 35? If so, how high do the SR numbers scale, so I know what to expect down the road?

Thanks!

Now does it still look insanely powerful?

[quietkey0]

Now does it still look insanely powerful?

Nope. That point completely changes everything. Funny, I read it before I pasted the info in on the edit, and didn't catch the hit die bit. Thanks! Makes a lot more sense. :) That loses the aspect I was looking at as being to powerful, it seems to me with the other sacrifices by multiclassers for this, it would balance out with what was lost on most characters...give a little, get a little.

[EKKM]

I agree with you, but if we present a unified front of acceptance of this feat, Turbine will never give it to us. If they see a possibility of someone getting butt-hurt by it, maybe they'll give it to us.


I'd drop Energy Drain and TR. If someone needs the full health restore of the TR to survive, it would only delay the inevitable. After all, they have control over when and where they take the raise...

Practiced Spellcaster would basically give the 17/3 the wizard capstone (+2 Wis, healing curse to stretch out spell points) and evasion without impacting the cleric's casting ability.

I still think the spells getting missed are pretty important, energy drain is essential in Amrath and epic quests (although arcanes have it as well).

Also, you need to drop a general feat to pick it up as it isn;'t a monk bonus feat and neither are any spellcasting feats. A cleric gets 7 - extend, empower/empower heal, max, quicken, spell pen, spell pen II, heighten are all imortant on a caster cleric. I guess you lose extend in that case so your aura, recitiation, prayer, divine power, holy aura all lose a lot of duration. Spell pen isn't an option if you're thinking of taking practiced spellcaster.

Is all that a good trade off for monk feats, curse and evasion - maybe but I don't think it is the given that some people think it is.

[Samiusbot]

How about the 17 Cler/3 monk? What balances this feat on such a build against going pure?

Well Phidius, I guess you would have to ask is a Clr17/3 monk stronger in practice then the pure Clr? One of the main reasons I know of people going Clr20 and not FvS is the capstone. My 20 clr gets tons more play and love then my 17/3 splash. And now with the twf nerf the 17/3 is not as much fun to play anymore. I have been thinking of TRing him in to something else. Like that 11/6/3 build you were rocking a few weeks ago.

Not to get to side tracked, in addition to the loosing the capstone, I believe that the third tear of the RadServant Pre is slated to be out soon. If it delivers like the first 2 tears it might be as big of a deal as me. :)

Also Fist of Light or Align the Heavens might help in the mana department what is stopping a pure clr from get those same benefits from a light path monk in the party? If melee can whine for haste and heals let the casters whine for align the heavens! But in pratice we both know if you get more then 15 hps from a mob with Fist of Light then something is wrong. And even when your the 17/3 how often do you AtH? For buffing and ...... Never thats when.

Are you trying to give free bumps so people might stop, Read the feat and Think about it?
**** you man this is the Internets! Reading and Thinking is not allowed!

[Phidius]

Dang, it's hard to come up with an argument that doesn't make me laugh when I type it... OK, got one

...
Also, you need to drop a general feat to pick it up as it isn;'t a monk bonus feat and neither are any spellcasting feats. A cleric gets 7 - extend, empower/empower heal, max, quicken, spell pen, spell pen II, heighten are all imortant on a caster cleric. I guess you lose extend in that case so your aura, recitiation, prayer, divine power, holy aura all lose a lot of duration. Spell pen isn't an option if you're thinking of taking practiced spellcaster...

You make a very good point - feats are tight on a caster cleric.

Then how about 17 Cleric/2 Monk/1 Wizard to pick up Maximize? Hmmm - this would also give the build a 10 minute extended shield spell from a wand, helping out it's AC without having to stress out on UMD.

You'd give up the ability to make yourself immune to stuns, but you'd make one heck of a casting cleric - better'n a pure, that's for sure.


Well Phidius, I guess you would have to ask is a Clr17/3 monk stronger in practice then the pure Clr? One of the main reasons I know of people going Clr20 and not FvS is the capstone...

Outside of the Abbot, how often do you really use that capstone? Personally, I say let the Pale Master die :D


...Also Fist of Light or Align the Heavens might help in the mana department what is stopping a pure clr from get
those same benefits from a light path monk in the party? If melee can whine for haste and heals let the casters whine for align the heavens! But in pratice we both know if you get more then 15 hps from a mob with Fist of Light then something is wrong. And even when your the 17/3 how often do you AtH? For buffing and ...... Never thats when...

OK, let's lose the 3rd monk in favor of getting back a metamagic feat (and cast 10 minue shields from spell points).

Pure Cleric benefits:
1. Capstone
2. extra 1 7th, 2 8th, and 3 9th level spells
3. currently-non-existant Radiant Servant 3

Compared to...

1. +1 to the DC of all your spells (normally, this is what you give up when splashing)
2 Evasion and better saves (+1 Fort, +2 reflex, +1 Will)
3. Wisdom bonus to AC
4. All arcane wands
5. 2 free feats from the monk list (Toughness for example)

Actually, this is sounding pretty overpowered - don't fail me now!!

[Calebro]

[color=black]Then how about 17 Cleric/2 Monk/1 Wizard to pick up Maximize? Hmmm - this would also give the build a 10 minute extended shield spell, helping out it's AC without having to stress out on UMD.
Unfortunately your argument is invalid.
Unless you free up TWO feats for PS you'll be casting that shield spell as a 1st level wiz.
Practised Spellcaster would need to be taken for both Cleric (as that's your main class) and for Wizard (if you want self cast 10 minute shields).
The feat that you "gained" by splashing Wiz would need to be spent on a second PS feat in order to do what you claim, so there is no feat gain at all.
And don't bring up that he could use a wand for the shield, because he could do that before if he took a wiz splash.

edit:
Although I will admit that a 17 cleric / 2 monk / 1 wiz is probably the most powerful combination that we've come up with yet, I still don't see it as game breaking.

[Phidius]

Unfortunately your argument is invalid.
Unless you free up TWO feats for PS you'll be casting that shield spell as a 1st level wiz.
Practised Spellcaster would need to be taken for both Cleric (as that's your main class) and for Wizard (if you want self cast 10 minute shields).
The feat that you "gained" by splashing Wiz would need to be spent on a second PS feat in order to do what you claim, so there is no feat gain at all.
And don't bring up that he could use a wand for the shield, because he could do that before if he took a wiz splash.

edit:
Although I will admit that a 17 cleric / 2 monk / 1 wiz is probably the most powerful combination that we've come up with yet, I still don't see it as game breaking.

Yeah, I got carried away :) OK, I'll take off the 10 minute shield from spell points, but how many pure clerics can get the UMD necessary for 10 minute shield wands?

[Calebro]

Simple fix:

Adjust it for DDO from a general feat to a metamagic feat, toggled as all metas are, with an associated SP cost.
This would allow it to be introduced for those of us that want it, while keeping it costly for those that think it would be OP as written.

I'd like to hear thoughts from both the enthusiasts and the detractors on this, as well as suggestions for what would be a fair SP cost for the feat if introduced in this way.

edit: but if this were done, you'd only be able to take it for a single casting class (although I'm sure that some would consider this a good thing).

[voodoogroves]

Ok ... new-ish to DDO. Very long time 3.x Optimizer. I'm assuming we're actually discussing Practiced Spellcaster as it is and not just brainstorming different things and how those different things that aren't the feat in question may or may not be broken.


Pen and Paper is different.

(1) Practiced Spellcaster is less impactful because the spell progression was FAR more useful than a caster level. FAR more useful. Getting the big spells early (which in PNP are wide, varied and can be very open-ended) like Polymorph, Shape Change, Summon X ... hugely important. Losing a caster level progression puts you in a huge bind. A Fighter 1 / Wizard 19 (or Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Abjurant Champion whatever whatever whatever) can get by with some loss in casting levels and while it doesn't seem like a big deal initially, it is. When you show up to the fight with your 7th level gish (who casts like a 5th or 6th level wizard) the dude that keeps polymorphing into the "answer" for each encounter makes you look like a chump. In those situations, getting a bit of a boost to your CL doesn't make up for that lost spell level. In DDO things are different in that the spells themselves do not exponentially grow in power. The big bad spells are mostly gone and scaled versions exist (no summoning the right tool for each job off of the massive options, no real shape changing, etc.). Without the SR hampering and CL boosting spells and additional feats of PNP, DDO relies on SR, CL checks on dispels, pure damage, etc. to achieve balance. Hell, Wizards from 7 to about 13 can get by with (predominantly) buffs and Wall of Fire. Giving them the damage boost is just asking for trouble.

Being different CL means far less in PNP while in DDO it is more impactful.

(2) Lack of OTHER feats, PRCs, options to muck with caster level, spell penetration, spell DCs, etc. means that adding in one feat to bring the multi-classes closer to the pure classes WITHOUT also adding in PRC options, feats, etc. for PURE casters to increase their various attributes simply makes the multi's stronger. If that's the goal, great. It takes away from the capstone abilities, the TR abilities, etc. in a relative fashion.

(3) It doesn't actually fix anything or make anything better. Yeah, I get it - folks want it. Hell, I'd like Precocious Apprentice, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Devoted Performer, Versatile Spellcaster, Ascetic Mage ... while you're at it I'd love to see a Dragonfire Adept, Swiftblade, Unseen Seer, UA monk fighting styles, Abjurant Champion ... domains. Those aren't "needed" either ... Practiced Spellcaster isn't needed - there isn't a hole in the game.

Putting it in would have the same effect that Radiant Servant currently has ... lots of people are taking it because there are really no other as-viable alternatives. Is Radiant Servant broken? Dunno, it sure is better than a cleric without it 99% of the time. Now if there were OTHER PrCs in the mix, maybe we wouldn't see every cleric respec'd. I haven't respec'd mine out of sheer principle ... yet.

Putting it in doesn't fix anything that needs fixing ... it just makes it a mandatory feat for lots and lots of builds.



=================

For the specific questions asked, I don't think it "breaks" anything. What it does do is create a few new build opportunities ... and drives down pure builds. Some of the builds that would benefit (and many believe are strong enough without it already) would be ...

Evasion Class 2 / Pally 2 / Sorcerer 16 ... no 9th level spells, but plenty of firepower, now with a CL of 20.

Whatever 3 / Wiz-Cleric 17 ... you don't need lots of 9th level spells and unless the capstone really really really is necessary for what you're doing, this will be better. Do the Rogue 2 / Monk 1 / Cleric 17s need the boost that badly? Or the Monk 3 / Cleric 17s?

Caster (likely wizard 2) / Something 18 ... Full PrC in Tempest or somesuch, with Wizard 2 casting. That isn't Wizard 2 casting since you're swapping in the docent or robes that boosts your CL + 4 from Practiced, so your CL is actually 7 on those buffs you're casting. People already do this kind of dip today and don't "need" the help.

Caster 12 / Evasion 2 / Melee 6 ... I love these builds and do quite well with them. They are kinda like the Whatever 3 / Caster 17 builds only you avoid any spell that needs SR. Luckily, Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier do not. The builds still work and you deal with the fact that your spells are topped out at 12. Most of the 5th level spells progress damage to 15 levels ... and that's just within range of Practiced Spellcaster. These builds don't need the help.

I should point out that Superior Potency 6 is trivially easy to get; but the same on 7th level and higher items/etc. can not be said. An optimized caster sticking to JUST 6th level spells can do very very well in the damage race that is DDO. The fact is that these spells are so useful that providing a way to more cheaply get them to their maximum effectiveness will, I think, dilute the game. We'll see more creative builds ... with max'd reconstruct, blade barrier, etc.

=================

So, my suggestion. If you're going to add it, man work on those other casting PRCs first and/or additional feats. Give folks a reason to actually take levels. Put things in at the 3rd tier of a PrC that are seriously worth it on the casting side. Finish the bard PrCs, add the other wiz/sorc/cleric/fvs/etc. ones.

Make the 18th level PrC options something you really have to consider before you multiclass away. Make the Captstones meaningful.

Make potency 7/8/9 items easier to get.

Make it a CHOICE.

Make it so that sometimes in a meaningful way and for a reasonable amount of time NOT taking Practiced Spellcaster is worth it.

[Samiusbot]

OK, let's lose the 3rd monk in favor of getting back a metamagic feat (and cast 10 minue shields from spell points).

How's that cleric capstone and currently-non-existant Radiant Servant 3 compare to...

1. +1 to the DC of all your spells (normally, this is what you give up when splashing)
2 Evasion and better saves
3. Wisdom bonus to AC
4. All arcane wands
5. Free basic TWF and Toughness (42+ HP depending on race) from the monk feat list


This is a good example of a good build but really what does the build get from the feat? You listed the perks of the build and only one of them had anything to do with the feat. Your comparing two builds. The only advantage giving by the feat listed as number 1.

Does +1 to DC s take this build from good to super too good?

[Visty]

Does +1 to DC s take this build from good to super too good?

considering he is talking still about clr17 theres no even a loss in DC

[Samiusbot]

I think you have a good argument. That said you have a fault.


Putting it in doesn't fix anything that needs fixing ... it just makes it a mandatory feat for lots and lots of builds.

That is not true, there is a hole in the game. And it is our the player's fault. If your a mutt and someone doesn't know the build or know you as a player your a gimp. Oh a 6/2/1 clr/monk/wiz gimp!

How many times pre ddo:u did us mutt builders ask to join a group and get a tell back “Not x enough” or just sit there with out a decline or anything. So we say F' it and solo the quest and finish before they fill? You said you were new so you might not know, but it was most of the time. So often that was the norm, most of what I do now unless the guild or a handful of friends are doing something is just solo.

PSC will go a loooong way towards healing the stigma that is muiti-classing.

But when I started this post a long time ago, I wanted to know what was so good that if we were not allowed to have PSC and I feel now it is a misunderstanding of what the feat is and how it works.

But if you can find that super example let me know.

[Phidius]

This is a good example of a good build but really what does the build get from the feat? You listed the perks of the build and only one of them had anything to do with the feat. Your comparing two builds. The only advantage giving by the feat listed as number 1.

Does +1 to DC s take this build from good to super too good?
Don't know if I can keep this up...

The Practiced Spellcaster feat removes all the penalties from splashing 3 non-cleric levels except for the 1 7th, 2 8th, and 3 9th level spells. I'll edit my post above to include these additional costs...


considering he is talking still about clr17 theres no even a loss in DC

Actually, the 17/2/1 clonkizard is the one that get's the +1 to all spell DCs thanks to the Ocean Stance... without the Practiced Spellcaster, though, it's down by 3 SR, damage, and duration.

[MrkGrismer]

The Practiced Spellcaster feat removes all the penalties from splashing 3 non-cleric levels except for the 1 7th, 2 8th, and 3 9th level spells. I'll edit my post above to include these additional costs...

You also loose 3 levels from your undead turning damage... not that it matters... but for the sake of completeness...

[Aspenor]

Practiced Spellcaster is not even remotely close to unbalanced. Trying to argue that it is exhibits ignorance. There is not a single case that it could be described as overpowered. Not one. It is a perfectly balanced feat in PnP, and would remain so in DDO.

[Phidius]

Practiced Spellcaster is not even remotely close to unbalanced. Trying to argue that it is exhibits ignorance. There is not a single case that it could be described as overpowered. Not one. It is a perfectly balanced feat in PnP, and would remain so in DDO.

I represent that!!

[Cyr]

Practiced Spellcaster is not even remotely close to unbalanced. Trying to argue that it is exhibits ignorance. There is not a single case that it could be described as overpowered. Not one. It is a perfectly balanced feat in PnP, and would remain so in DDO.

Agreed.

It's hard to argue that underpowered builds might get a bump from it so it's clealry OP.

Then again some random dev at Turbine thought otherwise so I doubt we will see it ever.

[Aspenor]

Then again some random dev at Turbine thought otherwise so I doubt we will see it ever.

Said random dev likely had no clue what the feat actually does. It seems all too common in this thread.

[JeffreyGator]

Someone pointed out that this makes for a potential of seeing a greater variety of builds out there that people see are viable.

I'm in favor of that and agree that there are choices to be made about this option but getting to make those choices and finding places to swap out some other feat is an opurtunity I would like to have.

[Kilarthia]

Make it required the ability to cast level 3 spells in the class that the practice spellcaster feat is being applied to.




Don't know if I can keep this up...

The Practiced Spellcaster feat removes all the penalties from splashing 3 non-cleric levels except for the 1 7th, 2 8th, and 3 9th level spells. I'll edit my post above to include these additional costs...



Actually, the 17/2/1 clonkizard is the one that get's the +1 to all spell DCs thanks to the Ocean Stance... without the Practiced Spellcaster, though, it's down by 3 SR, damage, and duration.


... You also lose the capstone. And 3 levels worth of already tight SP. That's pretty significant.

And for the last time, DC has nothing to do with caster level. Practiced spellcaster won't help you gain higher level spells for heighten either.


I think Practiced spellcaster would do much to help make splashing casters and non casters more comparable.

[Phidius]

...
And for the last time, DC has nothing to do with caster level. Practiced spellcaster won't help you gain higher level spells for heighten either.


I think Practiced spellcaster would do much to help make splashing casters and non casters more comparable.

Very true - however, taking 2 levels of monk gives you the ability to cast while in Water Stance. Whatever you can get your Wisdom to as a pure cleric, Water Stance adds 2 to it. This means that the 2 monk splash gives you an additional +1 to the DC of your spells, which are based on wisdom.

Add the wizard level to make up the loss of a feat to Practiced Spell Caster, and you have a cleric with evasion and +2 Wisdom, without losing a scrap of spell pen, spell duration, or spell damage from loss of caster levels.

People talk about Wizards gimping themselves (not me, by the way) for taking 2 levels of rogue for evasion and trap skills because they lose the +2 Int from the capstone - you don't think it's overpowered to get both evasion AND the +1 spell DCs? Yes, there's more being lost (level 7, 8, and 9 spells, spell points, etc...) but there's also more being gained.

What does it take to be considered overpowered, I wonder? Seriously, not being sarcastic here...

[imblo99]

Very true - however, taking 2 levels of monk gives you the ability to cast while in Water Stance. Whatever you can get your Wisdom to as a pure cleric, Water Stance adds 2 to it. This means that the 2 monk splash gives you an additional +1 to the DC of your spells, which are based on wisdom.

The +1 DC is probably more situational than we think; first of all you will be restricted as to what type of items you can hold in your hands (in order to stay balanced). Secondly (although probably a weaker argument) is that your +2 wis comes at the cost of 2 str, making it easier for you to be enfeebled/encumbered.

I think PSC that it would be a welcome addition to the game and encourage more multiclassing and build diversity (although Turbine in general seems to be discouraging m/cing given the capstones and higher tier PrEs).

However importing the feat directly from PnP may lead to it being OP. As previously mentioned, in PnP by not staying pure you lose spell progression which is a lot more important in PnP than in DDO where spellcasting is more flexible. Also pointed out was the fact that high lvl spells tend to be lacklustre, further tipping the feat towards being OP in DDO (although this could change with the introduction of additional spells).

With that in mind, have the following suggestions for implementation:
- Make it add only up to 2 lvls via the feat, with the additional 2 to come via enhancements (with the feat being a pre-req). Not sure about the AP cost, but I don't think it needs to be exorbitant (=< 6 total).
- Make the feat lower your spell point pool - this basically is to counteract some of the flexibility of the DDO spellcasting system (see previous paragraph). Ideally, the penalty should be some percentage of the total SP pool (probably 15-20%)

[UniqueToo]

Why not use the BAB style system from the very same book our spell point system comes from?

It avoids issues of inbalances in exactly the same way that BAB does. If it's not inbalanced for melee, then it's not inbalanced for casters! It's the same system...


References:

3.5e Unearthed Arcana rules. Published by Wizards of the Coast.

Magic Rating System (BAB for casters).
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/UA:Magic_Rating

And our spellpoint system from that rulebook.
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/UA:Spell_Points

Here's the rulebook itself.
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Unearthed_Arcana


The best thing about this system is it doesn't even need a feat or enhancment. Just like melee multiclassing. Fair.

[Letrii]

Why not use the BAB style system from the very same book our spell point system comes from?

It avoids issues of inbalances in exactly the same way that BAB does. If it's not inbalanced for melee, why not for casters too? It's the same system...


AFB, what is this BAB system you refer to?

[UniqueToo]

AFB, what is this BAB system you refer to?

It's linked in the post.

[Calebro]

It's linked in the post.

Check the timestamps. I would assume it's wasn't linked yet when he asked.

[UniqueToo]

Check the timestamps. I would assume it's wasn't linked yet when he asked.

It was, but not clearly marked. hence the edit time.

By the way, I have this proposal up in the Lammania boards to try to get it put into the spellpass. Follow the link in my signature if you wish to support it.

[Samiusbot]

I took a look this Magic Rating System (BAB for casters) option.

It is not bad. 90% of the time I think I would rather have the Practiced Spell Caster feat. But this would help builds do things that PSC wouldn't be able to help with as much. Say mixing to full casting classes together more then 4 levels deep.

If i can't have PSC this MRS could be a fair option. I think it would be a lot more work to add, but that is the Dev's problem.

[UniqueToo]

I took a look this Magic Rating System (BAB for casters) option.

It is not bad. 90% of the time I think I would rather have the Practiced Spell Caster feat. But this would help builds do things that PSC wouldn't be able to help with as much. Say mixing to full casting classes together more then 4 levels deep.

If i can't have PSC this MRS could be a fair option. I think it would be a lot more work to add, but that is the Dev's problem.

I think it is easier to add then you would think (just change to one function in the code GetCasterLevel()) but that is just an assumption from being a programmer myself.

Would take a bit longer to test though...

[Samiusbot]

I would think that PSC could use a lot of the code from items that raise caster level.

But I would bet MRS would also use be a lot of the same code also.

[UniqueToo]

I would think that PSC could use a lot of the code from items that raise caster level.

But I would bet MRS would also use be a lot of the same code also.

Yeah turbine could do either option fairly easy I would think.

Just thought I would point out MRS because it addresses possible issues of inbalance at earlier levels (specially with ftr/clr, etc builds). It should scale automaticly with the level of content being run.

And it is pretty hard to call it inbalanced when it is the same way BAB works on the other foot :)

.. anyway it is about time that casters had the same multi options that meleers have now ..

[Thuriaz]

The problem, the real one, I see would be wizards taking JUST enough levels to get otto's dancing sphere, then going all fighter with stats evened out in a decent STR, good starting Int, and major bonuses due to Archmage PRE and GSF enchant, you'd have a "Batman Build" again. Turbine really doesn't want you to have a build that can solo anything because eventually, it goes from MMO to Pay to Play Single Player RPG. You may think "That helps the game" but all it really does is create a situation where the server has a whole lot of people on it generating extra single player instances (which should be harder on the server) and then having to keep up with that bandwidth. Worse yet, it means that players eventually complete ALL CONTENT without grouping and loose interest in the game entirely.

What keeps these games alive is the REQUIREMENT of having other people in your party, the variety, and yes even the chance of failure that brings makes it exciting. When a build is powerful enough that even epic content poses NO THREAT AT ALL to it, then the player behind that build will become bored and leave.

Other examples include but are not limited to....

Battle Cleric Deep Fighter/Ranger/Rogue Splashes
Battle Wizard Shallow Splashes utilizing divine power.
War Forged half and half Fighter/Wizard splits (utilizing excellant healing, tensers/DP, and the benefits of fighter PRE) or 6/12/2 splits of Fighter, Wizard, Something else (Rogue? Monk?)

I could keep listing but the general split is always a high enough level of caster power to get tesners OR Divine power, and then enough fighting levels to make the GREAT crowd control could have over powered.

[Phidius]

...I could keep listing but the general split is always a high enough level of caster power to get Reconstruct OR Heal, and then enough fighting levels to make the GREAT crowd control could have over powered.

Fixed the spells for you.

[Thuriaz]

Actually I went with spells that would allow the fighter/caster to maintain FULL BAB just after crowd controlling mobs, basically you'd CC them, then bump your BAB finish them off and in the case of tensors wait a little bit for it to wear off.

No matter how you'd do it though, simply put, any class that can CC instantly (imagine an instant singing virtuoso built with max STR) and still do fair/good damage would be able to solo a VAST majority of the content. THAT is unwanted.

[UniqueToo]

You really don't need to multi to do those things, specially as wf.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Actually I was recently thinking about this feat and wrote a suggestion thread over here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=308776).

It is mostly inspiration and not directly related to the feat.

There were 4 things that I am interested to see multiclass characters being able to access without the full levels in the class with an appropriate feat and enhancement line.

1. Prestige Enhancements. At the moment, cut off points for classes are very strict and if it was possible to qualify for a PrE without all the levels in the class then I think it would add a lot of versatility to the game. Additionally, it would help new players a lot as even if they make a strange build by taking this feat they could perhaps save it a little bit.

2. Spell Penetration. Multiclassing a caster is prohibitively difficult if you are worried about spell penetration, as of recently, drow SR has gone up to ~45 in some epic quests and the only way to reliably bypass their SR is to be a pure caster and to have multiple past lives of wizard or favoured soul. Overall, it would ease the difficulty if there was some way to overcome the shortfall for a multiclass caster.

3. Caster level. Like the practiced spell caster feat, this would be a good boost for multiclass characters but possibly OP'd without requiring APs to use fully.

4. Capstone. I think it could be nice to have a capstone on a multiclass character that has only splashed 1 level. 2 levels would obviously be unbalanced but the 19th level of just about every class adds very little to a class. Additionally, spending a feat and 6 APs for the benefits it would give to a 19th level multiclass character (+1 caster level, +1 spell penetration, +1 to effective level for capstone) wouldn't be OP, imo.

I actually really like the suggestion in this thread of a portion of the feat being toggable which adds caster level at the cost of spell points. I'll adjust my suggestion to reflect that.

[Raithe]

2. Spell Penetration. Multiclassing a caster is prohibitively difficult if you are worried about spell penetration, as of recently, drow SR has gone up to ~45 in some epic quests and the only way to reliably bypass their SR is to be a pure caster and to have multiple past lives of wizard or favoured soul. Overall, it would ease the difficulty if there was some way to overcome the shortfall for a multiclass caster.


Building any caster (pure or not) to overcome SR 45 would make the character a relative gimp in terms of the rest of the game. Even just spending 6 action points on the third tier of spell penetration enhancements is a waste IMO (though I actually do have 3 tiers on my sorc currently - that will change very quickly as soon as U9 goes live). The maximum currently available to anyone without past life feats is something like 31 or 32, and if you are going to TR multiple times to get spell pen, it really doesn't matter much if you are short 4 caster levels in your final life.

The main reason not to include practiced spellcaster in DDO isn't because it would be unbalancing or overpowered. It is simply unnecessary and serves very little practical value. Casters simply don't have the time to melee, they are busy casting spells because DDO allows them to, nonstop through an entire quest.

Hybrid casters are really just melee with spellcasting additions. With highly available divine power scrolls and clickies, as well as Tensor's (which is inferior), there is nothing stopping any class combo or pure caster from becoming a melee if they find it necessary or desirable. And just because a melee-oriented character is given a decent spell pen, does not mean they have a decent DC. What full-bore melee character has better than 30 in their spellcasting stat? Most spells that don't rely on DC ignore spell resistance too.

[sephiroth1084]

Building any caster (pure or not) to overcome SR 45 would make the character a relative gimp in terms of the rest of the game. Even just spending 6 action points on the third tier of spell penetration enhancements is a waste IMO (though I actually do have 3 tiers on my sorc currently - that will change very quickly as soon as U9 goes live). The maximum currently available to anyone without past life feats is something like 31 or 32, and if you are going to TR multiple times to get spell pen, it really doesn't matter much if you are short 4 caster levels in your final life.

The main reason not to include practiced spellcaster in DDO isn't because it would be unbalancing or overpowered. It is simply unnecessary and serves very little practical value. Casters simply don't have the time to melee, they are busy casting spells because DDO allows them to, nonstop through an entire quest.

Hybrid casters are really just melee with spellcasting additions. With highly available divine power scrolls and clickies, as well as Tensor's (which is inferior), there is nothing stopping any class combo or pure caster from becoming a melee if they find it necessary or desirable. And just because a melee-oriented character is given a decent spell pen, does not mean they have a decent DC. What full-bore melee character has better than 30 in their spellcasting stat? Most spells that don't rely on DC ignore spell resistance too.
That's a very narrow way to look at the game.

Certainly 2-splash casters are semi-common, whether including rogue, monk, paladin or fighter, and I'm sure they'd like (or consider) Practiced Spellcaster to shore up their spell pen and damage they lose from multiclassing.

There are a number of deeper multiclass characters that are common, like the Tukaw builds, though I expect to see fewer of these with Savants coming.

Finally, there are the odd builds with only 6 or 12 levels in a casting class who could make good use of the extra levels. Not to mention that it would be useful to rangers and paladins who multiclass as well.

To say the feat isn't worth introducing because you don't see a use for it is ridiculous, particularly when it isn't at all difficult to find characters who would find a use for it.

[Raithe]

That's a very narrow way to look at the game.

Certainly 2-splash casters are semi-common, whether including rogue, monk, paladin or fighter, and I'm sure they'd like (or consider) Practiced Spellcaster to shore up their spell pen and damage they lose from multiclassing.

There are a number of deeper multiclass characters that are common, like the Tukaw builds, though I expect to see fewer of these with Savants coming.

Finally, there are the odd builds with only 6 or 12 levels in a casting class who could make good use of the extra levels. Not to mention that it would be useful to rangers and paladins who multiclass as well.

To say the feat isn't worth introducing because you don't see a use for it is ridiculous, particularly when it isn't at all difficult to find characters who would find a use for it.

My main (created on or very near the 1st day of March in 2006) is a ranger6/rogue7/wizard7. The first drow I created (about a month or two later) is a bard16/rogue4. I'm more than a little familiar with the play options for multiclassed casters.

What I was trying to convey is this: spellcasting characters in DDO are either casters, or they are hybrids. Hybrids are really just melee, like rangers or paladins, that can do spell DPS or buffs, but they are not really capable of effective crowd control or instakilling. They don't take feats like spell focus or spell penetration, because they have melee feats and metamagics to take instead. Practiced spellcaster is such a feat.

Yes, real casters with a 2-level splash of something else would benefit from the feat, because it amounts to a spell penetration feat plus extra damage. That is what I meant by "little practical value." The feat would serve a very specific multiclass configuration that may not fit very well with intended gameplay structures.

In any case, my main point is that it isn't overpowered or unbalancing - it simply is unwarranted for most dedicated casters or hybrid melee and in the rare case it is useful, it eclipses 2 spellcasting feats and possibly some enhancements.

Note that they have essentially created a "practiced spellcaster" line for elves with the changes to the elven Arcanum enhancements.

[wax_on_wax_off]

My main (created on or very near the 1st day of March in 2006) is a ranger6/rogue7/wizard7. The first drow I created (about a month or two later) is a bard16/rogue4. I'm more than a little familiar with the play options for multiclassed casters.

What I was trying to convey is this: spellcasting characters in DDO are either casters, or they are hybrids. Hybrids are really just melee, like rangers or paladins, that can do spell DPS or buffs, but they are not really capable of effective crowd control or instakilling. They don't take feats like spell focus or spell penetration, because they have melee feats and metamagics to take instead. Practiced spellcaster is such a feat.

Yes, real casters with a 2-level splash of something else would benefit from the feat, because it amounts to a spell penetration feat plus extra damage. That is what I meant by "little practical value." The feat would serve a very specific multiclass configuration that may not fit very well with intended gameplay structures.

In any case, my main point is that it isn't overpowered or unbalancing - it simply is unwarranted for most dedicated casters or hybrid melee and in the rare case it is useful, it eclipses 2 spellcasting feats and possibly some enhancements.

Note that they have essentially created a "practiced spellcaster" line for elves with the changes to the elven Arcanum enhancements.

I think that you're underestimating the utility of the feat. There are 2 things to gain from the feat that different builds will find useful.

Spell penetration is useful for spellcasting focused builds but also hybrids that lack DCs but use spells such as ottos irresistible dance, holy aura, crushing despair (U9), ray of enfeeblement and others.

Caster level will affect many things. Any build with 4-7 ranger or 4+ paladin will appreciate longer durations on their buffs and a higher caster level (like for divine favour and resist energy). Multiclass divines will greatly benefit from a boost to their mass cures and mass heal (up to 30 extra/cast; it doesn't cap the way it claims). Arcane archer builds with 1 wizard/bard level might enjoy +4 caster level.

Overall, I think it could be a fun feat with lots of versatility. I'd tie it in with an enhancement line or two though as described in the thread that I linked and make it applicable to all classes not just those with an SP bar.

[Raithe]

I think that you're underestimating the utility of the feat. There are 2 things to gain from the feat that different builds will find useful.


I've already admitted the feat would have "utility" for a narrow band of multiclassed configurations. To be more specific, the caster-oriented cleric-monks, wizard-rogues, and pally-sorcs. These "classes" would be able to utilize the feat to augment or nullify the need of taking spell penetration feats while enhancing their healing/damage at the same time. We don't need more feats that benefit these "classes," however. DDO developers already screwed up by including feats like "Force of Personality," and "Insightful Reflexes" that boost such character's saves by a factor of almost 5 over typical save-boosting feats.

You aren't really adding "utility" or variety when you eclipse the need to take a number of other (semi-useful) feats by adding one.



Spell penetration is useful for spellcasting focused builds but also hybrids that lack DCs but use spells such as ottos irresistible dance, holy aura, crushing despair (U9), ray of enfeeblement and others.


Again, we're back to the concept I was trying to convey. You don't build a debuffing hybrid. What is the hybrid going to do after he penetrates with a successful ray of enfeeblement? Beat on the mob, of course. So why didn't he just use a stat damager to beat on the mob?

Crushing despair? If you even consider taking this spell you have already put yourself firmly in the dedicated caster column. I have no idea why holy aura is in that list.

As for OID, yes, that is the one spell that would have great utility for a hybrid (I believe power word kill will have similar utility in U9). Again, however, OID (and power word kill) are a bit on the already-overpowered side of DDO. We don't need to enhance the utility of these spells, and it is already possible to make them extremely effective with the normal spell pen feats and enhancements combined with an improved shattermantle weapon.



Caster level will affect many things. Any build with 4-7 ranger or 4+ paladin will appreciate longer durations on their buffs and a higher caster level (like for divine favour and resist energy). Multiclass divines will greatly benefit from a boost to their mass cures and mass heal (up to 30 extra/cast; it doesn't cap the way it claims). Arcane archer builds with 1 wizard/bard level might enjoy +4 caster level.


Your 30 points of healing per cast is based on already having empower and maximize going. Again, we're back to the concept I was trying to convey. At some point you are no longer going to be a hybrid, you'll be a caster. And as a caster you have no real need to resort to melee except in very specific situations - and a pure caster can become a melee easily enough for those situations.

IF DDO were different and casters had to spend a signifant portion of their time throwing darts or hacking with daggers because they simply didn't have the resources to invoke magic continuously, then yes, the practiced spellcaster feat would come into play as it does in D&D. That is not how DDO is currently designed. If you want to DPS alongside the melee as a caster in DDO you can use wands, scrolls, or special Pre abilities. Splashing for a caster in DDO is about dramatically improving survivability, not about having to resort to regular combat.



Overall, I think it could be a fun feat with lots of versatility. I'd tie it in with an enhancement line or two though as described in the thread that I linked and make it applicable to all classes not just those with an SP bar.

Whatever. I have 3 primary characters that could potentially use the feat, and I wouldn't use it on any of them. On 2 of them I would simply pick up empower instead, and my bard (which it potentially favors the most) is already strapped for feats due to the requirements of spellsinger and maintaining combat viability. If he had a feat to spare, it would go towards a melee feat.

[Phidius]

...I have no idea why holy aura is in that list...

Holy Aura has a side effect of blinding opponents (no save) if you can penetrate their Spell Resistance.

At one point, I was planning to TR a 12/6/2 wizard at least 3 wizard lifes (and was considering 3 Favored Soul) to get the spell penetration needed to scroll Waves of Exhaustion, and cast Enervation from spell points.

But then they "fixed" Waves, and at the same time gave me the firm belief that they don't want people to play deeply-splashed characters. Especially wizards.

So I made the best of it, and finished up his 3rd wizard life. I'm not going to TR him again for the last +2 spell pen because as you have said, such a build has no need for spell pen.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Whatever.

Great attitude, sport. Apparently though I have to explain game mechanics to you as well as try to make my point.


I have no idea why holy aura is in that list.

As Phidius pointed out, holy aura is an offensive spell. It causes a no-save blindness which makes it one of the most powerful cleric spells out. Sneak attacks for the cleric (tharnes goggles at least) and 50% miss chance for the mobs; all that has to be achieved is to overcome spell resistance (I have heard accounts that spell resistance isn't tested properly for this spell but I haven't noticed either way on my divines).


Your 30 points of healing per cast is based on already having empower and maximize going. Again, we're back to the concept I was trying to convey. At some point you are no longer going to be a hybrid, you'll be a caster.

No. Mass Heal cast by a level 17 cleric will heal for 170 HP without any enhancements or feats. When cast by a level 20 cleric it will heal for 200. When you include enhancements and empower healing the difference is 63 which is quite considerable. For MCCW, the difference in 4 levels is 21 points cured. Are you suggesting that just because a battle cleric is prepared to heal a raid that it makes him a hybrid? If you are, then you are wrong.


I've already admitted the feat would have "utility" for a narrow band of multiclassed configurations.

Actually, you admitted that and then when I gave examples of how it would benefit all types of multiclass characters with a blue bar you ignore them.


You aren't really adding "utility" or variety when you eclipse the need to take a number of other (semi-useful) feats by adding one.

What semi-useful feats would it eclipse? Overcoming spell penetration in tough content will still require spell penetration feats, that won't change; it will just mean that splashed builds have a chance to keep up with pure builds (hence making them more viable for that content).


Again, we're back to the concept I was trying to convey. You don't build a debuffing hybrid. What is the hybrid going to do after he penetrates with a successful ray of enfeeblement? Beat on the mob, of course. So why didn't he just use a stat damager to beat on the mob?

The game isn't a static instance of swinging on a mob. DDO is mobile, hence, having a ranged option to debuff the enemy for a caster is very useful, cast RoE, close with the enemy and follow up with beating or stat damaging. It's amazing what combos like that can do.


Crushing despair? If you even consider taking this spell you have already put yourself firmly in the dedicated caster column.

I was giving an example of a spell with a no save affect that a hybrid could make use of. What combo could then be used might rely on a party member or foes with low will saves (I'll cast crushing despair, you cast mass hold monster).

Let's review.

There are a variety of blue bar multiclass characters, all can benefit in varying degrees from the feat but they mostly lean towards benefiting greatly and less not benefiting much at all;

4+ ranger levels: Practiced spellcaster will make rams might last significantly longer and give a higher caster level to resist energy and barkskin which could be very useful depending on the build. Self healing will get a significant boost and will be very useful when grouped with conc-opp/torc.
4+ paladin levels: caster level and duration increases to divine favour, resist energy, break enchantment and zeal will be very useful. Self healing will get a significant boost and will be very useful when grouped with conc-opp/torc.
12+ battle divines: increased duration for divine favour/power and the other short term buffs will substantially increase the combat duration of these builds when coupled with extend. Increased caster level for some offensive spells such as blade barrier (for a level 12 battle divine) will be very useful. Increased spell penetration for holy aura is crucial. Healing will appreciate a huge boost from this feat which will really soften the challenge of making these builds viable to raid heal challenging content (or just self heal with the heal spell for a level 12 battle divine).
15+ hybrid divines: As you pointed out, these builds benefit the most. Spell Penetration, Caster level, duration are all crucial for a hybrid.
12+ battle arcanes: more or less the same as for battle divines. Relevant spells are Ray of Enfeeblement, Haste, Rage, Displacement, Polar Ray, OID, Reconstruct, Fireshield, Firewall, Melfs Acid Arrow, Burning Blood, Negative Energy Burst, Death Aura etc.
16+ hybrid arcanes: As you pointed out, these builds benefit the most. Spell Penetration, Caster level, duration are all crucial for a hybrid.
8+ battle bards: durations for buffs spells, effectiveness of cure spells and OID will all benefit greatly from this feat. MCLW and MCMW will gain 20 hit points for each cast if properly buffed with this feat, that will be the difference between a splashed bard being able to backup raid heal and not, with the limiting factor being SPs.
16+ hybrid bards: You mention that you have a hybrid bard; a splashed spellsinger who is perfectly positioned to benefit from this feat. Assuming level 16 bard (18 is another obvious cutoff point but that is less perfectly positioned) taking this feat will give 20 HP extra to your two mass cures (assuming max + empower healing, 17 with just maximise which is ~20% more healing), +4 spell penetration and +24 second duration to haste/displacement among other things. How could you consider not taking the feat or do you not heal with your spell singer?

I think I've shown the value of this feat in a variety of contexts beyond just the "hybrids" that you are so worried about being OP.

With some rudimentary maths it looks like practiced spell caster will give a ~17-20% boost to most healing spells which aren't capped even if no maximise/empower is used. That is huge and will benefit all self healing blue bar multiclass characters except for level 15+ WF arcanes.

[PopeJual]

There are a variety of blue bar multiclass characters, all can benefit in varying degrees from the feat but they mostly lean towards benefiting greatly and less not benefiting much at all;

4+ ranger levels: Practiced spellcaster will make rams might last significantly longer and give a higher caster level to resist energy and barkskin which could be very useful depending on the build. Self healing will get a significant boost and will be very useful when grouped with conc-opp/torc.
4+ paladin levels: caster level and duration increases to divine favour, resist energy, break enchantment and zeal will be very useful. Self healing will get a significant boost and will be very useful when grouped with conc-opp/torc.
12+ battle divines: increased duration for divine favour/power and the other short term buffs will substantially increase the combat duration of these builds when coupled with extend. Increased caster level for some offensive spells such as blade barrier (for a level 12 battle divine) will be very useful. Increased spell penetration for holy aura is crucial. Healing will appreciate a huge boost from this feat which will really soften the challenge of making these builds viable to raid heal challenging content (or just self heal with the heal spell for a level 12 battle divine).
15+ hybrid divines: As you pointed out, these builds benefit the most. Spell Penetration, Caster level, duration are all crucial for a hybrid.
12+ battle arcanes: more or less the same as for battle divines. Relevant spells are Ray of Enfeeblement, Haste, Rage, Displacement, Polar Ray, OID, Reconstruct, Fireshield, Firewall, Melfs Acid Arrow, Burning Blood, Negative Energy Burst, Death Aura etc.
16+ hybrid arcanes: As you pointed out, these builds benefit the most. Spell Penetration, Caster level, duration are all crucial for a hybrid.
8+ battle bards: durations for buffs spells, effectiveness of cure spells and OID will all benefit greatly from this feat. MCLW and MCMW will gain 20 hit points for each cast if properly buffed with this feat, that will be the difference between a splashed bard being able to backup raid heal and not, with the limiting factor being SPs.
16+ hybrid bards: You mention that you have a hybrid bard; a splashed spellsinger who is perfectly positioned to benefit from this feat. Assuming level 16 bard (18 is another obvious cutoff point but that is less perfectly positioned) taking this feat will give 20 HP extra to your two mass cures (assuming max + empower healing, 17 with just maximise which is ~20% more healing), +4 spell penetration and +24 second duration to haste/displacement among other things. How could you consider not taking the feat or do you not heal with your spell singer?

I think I've shown the value of this feat in a variety of contexts beyond just the "hybrids" that you are so worried about being OP.

With some rudimentary maths it looks like practiced spell caster will give a ~17-20% boost to most healing spells which aren't capped even if no maximise/empower is used. That is huge and will benefit all self healing blue bar multiclass characters except for level 15+ WF arcanes.

Significantly splashed bards are the ones that occured to me first. All of those multiclass builds actually could use a boost in my opinion, but I'll also point out that every one of those builds except possibly the Wizard splashes are also fairly limited in the number of feats that they have available. Using a feat on Practiced Spellcaster would mean that they'll have to give up something significant.

The only characters that wouldn't give up something really major to take the splash as far as I can see are Cleric 18/?? 2 and even that character would have to give up a feat and it's stretched fairly thin on feats already. And that character is only getting 2 caster levels for the feat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Significantly splashed bards are the ones that occured to me first. All of those multiclass builds actually could use a boost in my opinion, but I'll also point out that every one of those builds except possibly the Wizard splashes are also fairly limited in the number of feats that they have available. Using a feat on Practiced Spellcaster would mean that they'll have to give up something significant.

The only characters that wouldn't give up something really major to take the splash as far as I can see are Cleric 18/?? 2 and even that character would have to give up a feat and it's stretched fairly thin on feats already. And that character is only getting 2 caster levels for the feat.

Considering the gimping of extend personally I'd skip that as I don't mind recasting buffs and take this feat instead. Sure, duration wise, extend + practised spellcaster is king but honestly I'm fine with recasting those short term buffs. Particularly considering in U9 the short term buffs are shuffled to be on the right of the bar so you can see when they're low rather than having to guess or check the character sheet.

In the end, the boost to healing power would be the most desirable portion of the feat for multiclass characters.

[Samiusbot]

Now that Extend only helps buff spells, could we get PSC now?

It was a long time ago and an almost totally different game when I first asked about PSC.



I would <3 to know if the Devs have revisited PSC and give us an updated answer.

[Trillea]

Now that Extend only helps buff spells, could we get PSC now?

It was a long time ago and an almost totally different game when I first asked about PSC.



I would <3 to know if the Devs have revisited PSC and give us an updated answer.

/signed!

It would add SO much more versatility to the game..

[Montoya]

i agree would be great for the game

[Emili]

Access to 3 more level 9 spells? I use all of the level 9 spells on my cleric pretty regularly - implosion, mass heal, summon, TR, energy drain. 17 only gets 2 of those. I can see summon not being worthwhile but which two of implosion, TR and energy drain do you not take?

Even at 18 You lose one of those (likely TR) which means you follow a res with a heal.

I don't think the feat is overpowered at all. If the devs think it is then only allow it to up CL by 2.
I follow a res scroll with a heal scroll. ;) Oh and speaking about my 18FVS/2monk not my cleric... A Clonk is a bit easier as they get more spells and are swapable at a shrine ... you can adjust for your party depending how they're playing much easier on a cleric.

I will tell you this ... comes down to play-style and perception on taking things on yourself vs including the party more in your game. What I mean by that is a clonk can rule a quest compared to a cleric... they're far sturdier and more adaptable when the player understands his character well... they do not need the rest of the party as much - difference you take more on yourself rather than share with other players in the tasks at hand.

This is where OP comes into play... it is something which shows in end-game, the levels of merit for all abilities/skills/feats are not equal... ample suffice, thus the really front ended classes like paladin, rogue or monk contain huge payoffs as they're just filled to the brim with abilities in that low level... this was WOTC problem with 3.0/3.5 openning the mutli-classing aspect to begin with... they openned these without realizing the AD&D rules strict balance at front end had some restriction to them. I.E. The ability evasion - rogue 2nd level - should had been prorated when designing 3.0 rule... iow effectiveness of evasion worked to point of scope of class similar to the way pally smite or BaB or Spell casting work.

[Tobril]

I follow a res scroll with a heal scroll. ;) Oh and speaking about my 18FVS/2monk not my cleric... A Clonk is a bit easier as they get more spells and are swapable at a shrine ... you can adjust for your party depending how they're playing much easier on a cleric.

I will tell you this ... comes down to play-style and perception on taking things on yourself vs including the party more in your game. What I mean by that is a clonk can rule a quest compared to a cleric... they're far sturdier and more adaptable when the player understands his character well... they do not need the rest of the party as much - difference you take more on yourself rather than share with other players in the tasks at hand.

This is where OP comes into play... it is something which shows in end-game, the levels of merit for all abilities/skills/feats are not equal... ample suffice, thus the really front ended classes like paladin, rogue or monk contain huge payoffs as they're just filled to the brim with abilities in that low level... this was WOTC problem with 3.0/3.5 openning the mutli-classing aspect to begin with... they openned these without realizing the AD&D rules strict balance at front end had some restriction to them. I.E. The ability evasion - rogue 2nd level - should had been prorated when designing 3.0 rule... iow effectiveness of evasion worked to point of scope of class similar to the way pally smite or BaB or Spell casting work.




Your spell access is not increased by this pnp feat, just caster level.

As such the balance issue is probably OK.

[Emili]

Your spell access is not increased by this pnp feat, just caster level.

As such the balance issue is probably OK.
I know and caster level is actually more powerful than spell access or spell slots, especially in a high magic environment.

... but is fine... balance is something DDO never had. ;)

[Samiusbot]

balance is something DDO never had. ;)


DDo and PnP both finds its balance in unbalance.

[Emili]

DDo and PnP both finds its balance in unbalance.

DnD in PnP contain a gamut of more useful feats than DDO, DDO's largets issue is a run away enhancement system coupled with feat which did not transpose well to a real time environment, lack of useful skills coupled with one or two overpowered skills...

[Samiusbot]

DnD in PnP contain a gamut of more useful feats than DDO, DDO's largets issue is a run away enhancement system coupled with feat which did not transpose well to a real time environment, lack of useful skills coupled with one or two overpowered skills...

Guess I am not seeing this as an argument against PSC. Was it meant to be?

[Phidius]

The best argument against the PSC feat is that it would make you happy. And, quite frankly, it's hard enough to maintain my pessimism against your absurd optimism as it is.

You should turn your energies toward the revamping of Tenser's Transformation. At least they've expressed an interest in that direction... I notice it wasn't touched in the spell rebalancing.

[Lissyl]

Hi everyone.

The biggest marker I see on it would be the spells that intensify dramatically with a level jump. I'm talking specifically about Frost Lance and Scorching Ray, both are which are also no-save spells. Level 7 casters throwing 3 bolts, with enhancements, plus all their other cool neato class abilities from whatever they didn't spend 4 levels on makes for a rather unfair comparison. And in the end, that's what it comes down to -- doing the same damage as an arcane who has dumped all their stuff into being an arcane, with all the extra stuff from other classes (I'm looking at you, rogue and monk levels). Should 2 level 7 arcanes, one with full evasion and thief abilities, do the exact same damage with spells? I say no, but that's just my opinion.

[Tobril]

The best argument against the PSC feat is that it would make you happy. And, quite frankly, it's hard enough to maintain my pessimism against your absurd optimism as it is.

You should turn your energies toward the revamping of Tenser's Transformation. At least they've expressed an interest in that direction... I notice it wasn't touched in the spell rebalancing.




Name: Tenser's Transformation
School: Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: S, V, M (Potion of Bull's Strength)
Metamagic: Eschew Materials, Extend, Heighten,Quicken
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 5 seconds


Description:

Causes the caster to become a virtual fighting machine becoming stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can't cast spells. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to Armor Class, a +5 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. (Which may give you multiple attacks.)

You can no longer be healed by positive or negative energy, and repair also has no effect if you are warforged. You have a -200% penalty to your fortification due to bloodlust. Stealth is impossible as any monsters in the dungeon instantly teleport to your location and engage you in combat, never re-evaluating their hate list for other targets.

Jumping, tumbling, and generally running away is now unthinkable, you get -40 to these skills and a 99% speed reduction.

You gain DR 1/papercuts.


I fixed it! :)

[Samiusbot]

The best argument against the PSC feat is that it would make you happy. And, quite frankly, it's hard enough to maintain my pessimism against your absurd optimism as it is.

You should turn your energies toward the revamping of Tenser's Transformation. At least they've expressed an interest in that direction... I notice it wasn't touched in the spell rebalancing.

Hey don't be trying to get me off topic. If you want my suggestions to revamp Tenser's Transformation, start your own thread.

That said:
But i would allow spell casting at double cost, and make the stat bonus a not an enchantment bonus allowing it stack.

[Seikojin]

It devalues the pres for wizard. Plus if you went down one of those paths and also took the feat, your spells would be very, very powerful.

[Calebro]

It devalues the pres for wizard. Plus if you went down one of those paths and also took the feat, your spells would be very, very powerful.

It wouldn't devalue PrEs at all. And it wouldn't make wizards with PrEs any more powerful than they are.
What it would do is shore up some of the casting power lost by multiclassing. You're still losing the two or three levels that grant the most base SP, and it isn't regained. You're still losing access to some of your most powerful spells, and they aren't regained. You still lose access to the Capstone, and you aren't getting it back.
Basically all it is is a Spell Pen feat that also raises your caster level. But it never raises your caster level beyond that of your character level, so a pure caster with the feat is wasting a feat.
Any effects that rely on caster level {ie: damage, duration, and spell pen.... and just about nothing else} become that of a pure. This means you might possibly do up to 3d6 more damage on some spells, which wouldn't break anything because a pure caster already does that. Some spells it would add +3 damage. Some spells would be completely unaffected. Some spells would last longer, but not by much. We're talking either a few seconds longer and 2 minutes becomes 2 minutes 18 seconds, or 17-18 minutes becomes 20 minutes. No big gain there.

The big gain is the fact that multiclass casters wouldn't need to take 2 different Spell Pen feats to shore up their weakness. They would take this one instead.
So really, this feat just frees up a feat. Or in some cases where they take Spell Pen anyway, it is the same as having both feats, or +1 over that if they were a 3 level dip.
They'd still be behind a pure who had both feats unless they took all three of these.

[Samiusbot]

Hi everyone.

The biggest marker I see on it would be the spells that intensify dramatically with a level jump. I'm talking specifically about Frost Lance and Scorching Ray, both are which are also no-save spells. Level 7 casters throwing 3 bolts, with enhancements, plus all their other cool neato class abilities from whatever they didn't spend 4 levels on makes for a rather unfair comparison. And in the end, that's what it comes down to -- doing the same damage as an arcane who has dumped all their stuff into being an arcane, with all the extra stuff from other classes (I'm looking at you, rogue and monk levels). Should 2 level 7 arcanes, one with full evasion and thief abilities, do the exact same damage with spells? I say no, but that's just my opinion.

Okay good example. Lets look at your 2 wizard pure lvl 7 and a 5/2 wiz/rog mix

Pure has 359 mana (no items) wiz/rog 286

Scorching ray is 8 sp + 15 for Empower +25 for Maximize == 48sp

Using 2 feats 3 if your the wiz/rog both do the same about of damage (two rays) and all they do with there sp is cast Scorching ray.

Lets the pure gets 7 rays per shrine.
The wiz/rog gets 5 rays per shrine.

The pure only used 2 of this 4 feats. And has the option to cast forth level spells.
The Wiz/rog 3 out of 4. For that amount of feat investment I don't see that as a problem.

[Noctus]

Okay good example. Lets look at your 2 wizard pure lvl 7 and a 5/2 wiz/rog mix

Pure has 359 mana (no items) wiz/rog 286

Scorching ray is 8 sp + 15 for Empower +25 for Maximize == 48sp

Using 2 feats 3 if your the wiz/rog both do the same about of damage (two rays) and all they do with there sp is cast Scorching ray.

Lets the pure gets 7 rays per shrine.
The wiz/rog gets 5 rays per shrine.

The pure only used 2 of this 4 feats. And has the option to cast forth level spells.
The Wiz/rog 3 out of 4. [And can only cast third level spells]

For that amount of feat investment I don't see that as a problem.

(marking by me and addition in [x] )


What he said.

This is the correct way to evaluate the gains and costs of this feat. Look at the whole character, not just little pieces and missing the big picture.

[transtemporal]

We had a debate about this a while ago. At first I thought it was way too powerful, but the more we talked about about it, the more reasonable it seemed.

Can only get it once per spellcasting class, doesn't affect spellpoints, doesn't affect spell levels/spells known, affects caster level, affects caster level checks for spell resistance but caps at 20 (i.e. you can't take it on a 20th level caster to get a free +4 SR check).

At most, you get 4 extra dice of damage (fireball, lightning bolt etc) and 4 extra levels for duration and spell resistance purposes.

I think one of the modifications suggested was that it work like a toggle and cost 10sp, or whatever maximise was. Or its cost was in proportion to the number of caster levels you had; e.g. the more caster levels you have the more the toggle costs.

Or... make it 2 extra levels, cost 5sp and be stackable.

Whatever combination of limitations would make it fair, but still be a cool feat to have.

Overall, I don't think I was concerned over caster multiclass at all, but the big boost that pure casters would get did concern me, (even if it was only while levelling).

[Calebro]

Overall, I don't think I was concerned over caster multiclass at all, but the big boost that pure casters would get did concern me, (even if it was only while levelling).

But they wouldn't even get it while leveling. It caps at 20 because the feat cannot raise your caster level beyond that of your hit dice.
So a 6th level character wouldn't be at caster level 10 if he had this feat. He'd be at caster level 6, whether he was a 4/2, 3/3, 5/1, or whatever.
The feat is absolutely wasted on a pure caster. He literally gets zero benefit from it.


Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

So as you can see, a pure caster gains nothing from taking this feat. His caster level is already equal to his hit dice, so taking this feat adds nothing for him, so he gains no power while leveling. Your fears were unfounded.
This feat was designed for multiclassed casters, and ONLY for multiclassed casters.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Hi everyone.

The biggest marker I see on it would be the spells that intensify dramatically with a level jump. I'm talking specifically about Frost Lance and Scorching Ray, both are which are also no-save spells. Level 7 casters throwing 3 bolts, with enhancements, plus all their other cool neato class abilities from whatever they didn't spend 4 levels on makes for a rather unfair comparison. And in the end, that's what it comes down to -- doing the same damage as an arcane who has dumped all their stuff into being an arcane, with all the extra stuff from other classes (I'm looking at you, rogue and monk levels). Should 2 level 7 arcanes, one with full evasion and thief abilities, do the exact same damage with spells? I say no, but that's just my opinion.

This isn't necessarily accurate as you don't gain access to the higher enhancements. That's the thing about DDO; so much of the damage is dependent on limited resources (particularly enhancements, feats and equipment which take up valuable slots) that multi-roling a character is quite difficult (multi-role rather than multiclass, multiclassing to achieve an overarching purpose (melee damage) or adding something small to a build (traps, suvivability in the form of evasion or paladin saves, etc) is quite easy, multi-roling is almost impossible (melee damage + spell damage).

Practiced Spellcaster will make it slightly more possible but it will still be difficult. The feat would be most advantageous for buffs such as resist energy and divine favour which benefit from caster levels in both duration and affect.

[transtemporal]

But they wouldn't even get it while leveling. It caps at 20 because the feat cannot raise your caster level beyond that of your hit dice.
So a 6th level character wouldn't be at caster level 10 if he had this feat. He'd be at caster level 6, whether he was a 4/2, 3/3, 5/1, or whatever.
The feat is absolutely wasted on a pure caster. He literally gets zero benefit from it.

Oh ok, even better then. I'd say that was a pretty balanced feat then actually.

[Junts]

The big one is the affect it would have in permitting you to do stuff like 8 or 12 cle/fvs and have mostly melee levels but still cast the heal spell on yourself and/or heal a raid.

[Samiusbot]

The big one is the affect it would have in permitting you to do stuff like 8 or 12 cle/fvs and have mostly melee levels but still cast the heal spell on yourself and/or heal a raid.

A clr would get heal at lvl 11, a FvS at 12. So the casting class would still be the main class if your going to be able to cast heal.

With PSC you still have to get the spell from normal progression.

[Phidius]

The big one is the affect it would have in permitting you to do stuff like 8 or 12 cle/fvs and have mostly melee levels but still cast the heal spell on yourself and/or heal a raid.

We already do that without PSC (except 20 - 12 isn't mostly melee levels, but I think I know what you meant).

[Calebro]

The big one is the affect it would have in permitting you to do stuff like 8 or 12 cle/fvs and have mostly melee levels but still cast the heal spell on yourself and/or heal a raid.
A clr would get heal at lvl 11, a FvS at 12. So the casting class would still be the main class if your going to be able to cast heal.

With PSC you still have to get the spell from normal progression.
We already do that without PSC (except 20 - 12 isn't mostly melee levels, but I think I know what you meant).


Exactly.
This is where a lot of the confusion regarding this feat comes from. We wouldn't be able to have 8 levels of Cleric/FvS and cast the Hael spell. You still need 11-12 actual levels for that. Eight levels doesn't confer the Heal spell. With 8 levels and this feat, you'd still only be able to cast Cure Critical, just like any 8th level. But you'd cast it as if you were 12th level, assuming you were a level 12 toon.
Instead of curing {12 to 32} + 8, you'd cure {12 to 32} + 12. This is one of the examples that hardly change because of this feat.

If you made a 12 cleric / 6 ranger / 2 monk, for example, you could heal with Heal, Mass Cure Light, or Mass Cure Mod, but you would cast those spells as if you were a 16th level cleric. The change is hardly even noticeable.
You could probably play healbot for the Horoth tank, or backup/secondary healer for some raids, but you certainly aren't going to make a good primary healer.

For your 8 Divine / 12 melee example: Your best healing spell is still Cure Crit. You don't even have any Mass versions. You aren't healing any raids, even if you have this feat.

[Calebro]

The feat is not designed to improve *casting* power. You gain no casting power from this feat. You are only able to cast the spells allotted for your true level in the class.
The feat is instead designed to retain some of the lost *spell* power for the spells that you have available.

Truth be told, it isn't very useful for many deep multiclasses. It will have the most benefit for offensive casters that have splashed.

Let's look at some different builds to show what this feat does.

pure caster
spells and SP of a level 20 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater
gains no benefit from this feat

18 favored soul / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 18 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

18 wizard / 2 rogue
spells and SP of a level 18 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

17 cleric / 2 monk / 1 rogue
spells and SP of a level 17 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

16 sorc / 2 pally / 2 monk or rogue
spells and SP of a level 16 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

12 cleric / 6 ranger / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 12 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 16 caster
spell pen of 18 with Spell Pen feat, 20 with Greater

12 pally / 8 favored soul from Junts' example
spells and SP of a level 8 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 12 caster
spell pen of 14 with Spell Pen feat, 16 with Greater

And an example while leveling:
6 cleric / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 6 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 8 caster
spell pen of 10 with Spell Pen feat, 12 with Greater

[Samiusbot]

The feat is not designed to improve *casting* power. You gain no casting power from this feat. You are only able to cast the spells allotted for your true level in the class.
The feat is instead designed to retain some of the lost *spell* power for the spells that you have available.

Truth be told, it isn't very useful for many deep multiclasses. It will have the most benefit for offensive casters that have splashed.

Let's look at some different builds to show what this feat does.

pure caster
spells and SP of a level 20 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater
gains no benefit from this feat

18 favored soul / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 18 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

18 wizard / 2 rogue
spells and SP of a level 18 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

17 cleric / 2 monk / 1 rogue
spells and SP of a level 17 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

16 sorc / 2 pally / 2 monk or rogue
spells and SP of a level 16 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 20 caster
spell pen of 22 with Spell Pen feat, 24 with Greater

12 cleric / 6 ranger / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 12 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 16 caster
spell pen of 18 with Spell Pen feat, 20 with Greater

12 pally / 8 favored soul from Junts' example
spells and SP of a level 8 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 12 caster
spell pen of 14 with Spell Pen feat, 16 with Greater

And an example while leveling:
6 cleric / 2 monk
spells and SP of a level 6 caster
damage and spell pen of a level 8 caster
spell pen of 10 with Spell Pen feat, 12 with Greater

Thanks for some clear examples....

[ArcaneMelee]

I hate to see such a neat suggestion die from neglect - with recent examples of astounding dev feedback (Let's talk), here's hoping that one of them will explain why they feel PSC is overpowered.

[ainmosni]

let me take a shot at this one- PSC is overpowered- for one reason and one reason only.

it's a caster feat, and it LOOKS like it does a lot more than 'increase spell pen and damage' (negligible increase in damage)

the backlash from the community if ANOTHER caster buff (even one that's as mundane as this one, i would never take it) is implemented into the game would be more trouble than it's worth.

it's not a good feat, it's a neat feat for flavor builds but not gamebreaking and not necessary for balancing classes. i'd prefer to see more melee feats/changes implemented into the game before a... well, another 'spell pen' feat that only works if you're not min/maxing your caster (in a game where min/maxing your caster is generally a good idea).

[DDOisFree]

Wow this thread is just lolworthy, and just makes me hope that a NWN MMO could be released sometime soon :D.

Practiced spellcaster - this feat raises your caster level by 4 for the purpose of spell penetration checks, and damage rolls for any spell you cast. This feat cannot raise your caster level beyond your total number of levels, and does not affect spells known per day (or spell points in DDO), or the number / level of spells you can cast, or your DCs.

What practiced spell caster as an example is raise the caster level on a level 16 wiz / 4 rogue from 16 to 20. This only increases the damage caused by your spells normally available to a level 16 wizard as though they were cast by a level 20 wizard, and also the same for spell penetration.

However, if you really want it balanced anymore than that, then even reducing the number of levels affected from 4 to just 2 would still be good for all the players that take 18levels of cleric, wizard or FVS plus two levels of something else like rogue or monk.

In terms of game balance compared to other D+D games, every player controlled character is completely gimped in DDO, and AI mobs are too overpowered.

[ArcaneMelee]

let me take a shot at this one- PSC is overpowered- for one reason and one reason only.

it's a caster feat, and it LOOKS like it does a lot more than 'increase spell pen and damage' (negligible increase in damage)

the backlash from the community if ANOTHER caster buff (even one that's as mundane as this one, i would never take it) is implemented into the game would be more trouble than it's worth.
...

As much as I would like to argue that trying to balance the game around misconceptions and ignorance is a really bad idea, the devs were claiming that PSC was overpowered long before casters were held to be OP by the pitchfork and torch bearing mobs.

I was kinda hoping that they would weigh in with their thoughts as to why this is so.

[ainmosni]

As much as I would like to argue that trying to balance the game around misconceptions and ignorance is a really bad idea, the devs were claiming that PSC was overpowered long before casters were held to be OP by the pitchfork and torch bearing mobs.

I was kinda hoping that they would weigh in with their thoughts as to why this is so.

i noticed that this was a necro after posting that, but left my post intact in the hopes that it would stir up some doom

[SirValentine]

Actually, I've thought that something like this as a PrE would be more balancing. These are just examples and I haven't considered the balance of the particular

Practiced Spellcaster I would add 1 to the DC and 2 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster II would add 2 to the DC and 4 to the caster level

Practiced Spellcaster III would add 3 to the DC and 6 to the caster level


Ouch! People are saying a bonus to caster level is unbalanced (though I still don't see why), but you want to give away free +s to DCs?!? THAT actually would be unbalancing. Why should splashes have BETTER DCs than pures?

[decease]

the truth is that it will never bring any unbalance.. at least not toward end game.

multi class means low dc low spell pen.. which means cc are useless. mot of the damaging spell also have save, they will be avoid or half damage by most enemy. as for buff.. if you think waste one level on caster(low hd, ab, save) is worth a buff then sure..

but you know they are selling buff are house d/j.. plus there are clickie to most useful buff..

[DDOisFree]

PEACTICED SPELL CASTER DOES NOT AFFECT DCs OF SPELLS CAST, IT IS NOT HEIGHTEN SPELL!

It raises caster levels for multiclasssed casters only for the purpose of damage rolls and spell penetration.

The only thing that was overpowered about it in NWN2 was that a 10 wizard / 10 ASOC / 10 red wizard would gain an additional 4 caster levels due to multi classing, even though it already has maximum caster HD. But we don't have classes like those in DDO.

[MrCow]

The addition of abilities such as Arcane Augmentation, Lesser Evocation Augmentation, Might of the Abishai, Elemental Savant, and Radiant Servant make for a curious counter-argument as to Practiced Spellcaster being considered quite as overpowering as it once was, more-so being the developer who gave us the quote (Genasi) is also the one responsible for the itemization of things past Module 8 (aka, the developer who stated the feat was deemed overpowering is also the one who put similar effects on items).

The answer for Practiced Spellcaster not being considered that was also true at the time (but never revealed) was that the engine wouldn't have handled it properly at the time.

[Ungood]

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/257.jpg

But Savants, which can do viable end game damage by 14th level, with this feat that would just make them scary.

[ainmosni]

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/257.jpg

But Savants, which can do viable end game damage by 14th level, with this feat that would just make them scary.

make for an interesting tukaw

[voodoogroves]

The feat, as it is, doesn't raise CL past character level.

Ainmosni is spot on though, in that it may be to the benefit to some builds which are currently struggling to work.



You really have to take care though ... don't get me wrong, I'd love to play a ton of splashed casters - but balance is important. Full CL on a 17/3 wizard or cleric split would be pretty nice ...

[Aaxeyu]

The claims that this would ever have been OP are just ridiculous.

[Ungood]

make for an interesting tukaw

I know! being able to swap in 4 more melee levels with impunity into that build... wow.

[Tyrande]

Example: Human 18 sorcerer / 2 monk cold savant (with 2 toughness feats and evasion) plus the Practiced Spell Caster feat using human bonus feat.

gains more hit points, evasion, and casts polar ray at CL 26 with the Epic Abishai Set.

Same like the pure level 20 ice savant but with more hit points and evasion, loosing only the capstone.

Also, If it stacks with the arcane augmentation and evocation augmentation thing? More OP?

[Ungood]

Example: Human 18 sorcerer / 2 monk cold savant (with 2 toughness feats and evasion) plus the Practiced Spell Caster feat using human bonus feat.

gains more hit points, evasion, and casts polar ray at CL 26 with the Epic Abishai Set.

Same like the pure level 20 ice savant but with more hit points and evasion, loosing only the capstone.

Also, If it stacks with the arcane augmentation and evocation augmentation thing? More OP?

Could you pull that off with 16 levels of Sorc or do you need the Tier III Savant?

I wonder, would it also work for FvS shoulder cannon, divine punishment and BB's? Which would allow for even deeper splits in FvS to augment HP and saves (especially with Monk and Pally Splits) while still maintaining optimal damage out put?

Like 16 FvS/2Monk/2Pally being able to do the same damage as a 20 FvS but now with better saves and evasion.

Hummm.. thoughts to ponder in this.

[Tyrande]

Could you pull that off with 16 levels of Sorc or do you need the Tier III Savant?

You could pull that off with 16 levels of sorcerer (with additional 2 paladin levels for more HP and saves) but you loose IX level spells, like Wail and Power Word: Kill plus the Ice Savant III ability of Freezing Ice Prison. With multiple wizard past lives and Practiced Spell Caster since it increase spell penetration they would be quite nice. Also, PSC is very good for Prismatic Spray, a 7th level spell since it increases damage by 4 levels.



I wonder, would it also work for FvS shoulder cannon, divine punishment and BB's?

The arcane DOTS like Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold currently capped at CL 15, I wonder if DP and BBs are the same?



[...]
Like 16 FvS/2Monk/2Pally being able to do the same damage as a 20 FvS but now with better saves and evasion.

Hummm.. thoughts to ponder in this.
Wouldn't you loose wings and the no SP free spell capstone?

Nice build though, if Practiced Spellcaster is implemented. Let's Talk: Enhancement thread has a dev in there also talk about lowering the requirement for 3rd level PrE to level 16.... much more powering with PSC in terms of this combo.

[DrawingGuy]

The short of it is that this feat essentially removes the penalty for up to 4 splash levels... in a game that doesn't have enough penalties for multi-classing as it is. It bumps the efective level to the next tier of most caster splashes. It's EXTREMELY powerful

Well, I for one know that my half-elf clonk will love knowing that giving up one monk related DPS feat (as I think stunning fist and two-weapon is all that's needed for an effective monk splash anyways) then allows me to be as powerful as a level 20 Cleric and keep all my wonderful Monk advantages. Heck, if I deem losing level 9 spells as worth it, I could take 4 monk levels and gain a die step, slow fall, healing amp, etc and still lose nothing on my other spells. My tank with 2 arti splash (for UMD and AC buffs) will love getting an additional +1 to ac without needing wands, and have the spells last 3 times as long.

Considering most splashes with casters involve more feat rich melees, I don't see a single cross-class not taking advantage of this feat. I do see it as a bit to over powered... but not brokenly so.

[decease]

in a game that doesn't have enough penalties for multi-classing as it is.

what make you think that? we have prestige implement right on base class, which means multi class will not be able to process their entire prestige enhancement unless they splash less then 2 level.

also it only give caster level, you don't get new spell, spell per day, dc or spell pen.

[Phidius]

Since this thread has died, we've gotten Epic Destinies that add up to 5 to the character's caster level, and an Epic Feat that gives +4 to Spell Pen.

And 10 months later, the game is still here... so I thought I'd cast Raise Thread and see if we can get any "Read by a Dev" posted here.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs39/i/2008/366/2/c/Necromancer_Concept_by_DenjinPrime.jpg