Symbol of Pain contradiction

[LookingForABentoBox]

The debuff says that it lowers saves when you examine an enemy that you cast the symbol on but the spell description itself doesn't mention such a debuff, which is correct?

[Bronko]

The debuff says that it lowers saves when you examine an enemy that you cast the symbol on but the spell description itself doesn't mention such a debuff, which is correct?

Symbol of Pain (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Symbol_of_Pain) does in fact lower the target's attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for the duration of the effect. If you examine a target under the effect of a Symbol of Pain spell you will only see generic text saying "Symbol of Pain" in the examine window. But all of those things will be affecting it.

[LookingForABentoBox]

You didn't answer my question, I wanted to know if it also lowered the enemy saves


http://i46.tinypic.com/2ywu2is.jpg

[Halock]

Test it in pvp, i havent, but i think you'll find it doesnt lower the saves, that description when you examine seems ot be copy pasted alot, the shaken on an improved roaring says the same thing yet they only affect everything by -2.

Again, only way to really check is in pvp.

[LookingForABentoBox]

Thanks for the advice halock, I bribed some newbie into being my guinea pigs and both of them rolled 4 lower on their reflex saves vs lightning bolt than w/o symbol of pain

[Bronko]

Thanks for the advice halock, I bribed some newbie into being my guinea pigs and both of them rolled 4 lower on their reflex saves vs lightning bolt than w/o symbol of pain

Sorry about that. I didn't realize that it was the saves debuff effect that was the the real question here. In fact, now that you have play-tested and confirmed this added effect it makes me think I might include it in my cleric's spell list. :)

So the real question now is whether the spell description is incorrect and it's working as intended or if the debuff effect to enemy saving throws is an unintended effect. +1 rep regardless for teaching me something I didn't know.

[spyderwolf]

symbol of pain has always lowered our saves by 4 as far back as i can remember it being cast.

[Cedwin]

It says it right in the description.


all nearby targets suffer wracking pain that imposes a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.

Ability checks are saves.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

No. An ability check is, for example, a Str check to avoid getting tripped. Or to break down a door (which DDO just puts a flat Str requirement on). Generally used to do things there is no specific skill for.
At least, in tabletop.
Sounds like a messed up description to me.

[Bronko]

No. An ability check is, for example, a Str check to avoid getting tripped. Or to break down a door (which DDO just puts a flat Str requirement on). Generally used to do things there is no specific skill for.
At least, in tabletop.
Sounds like a messed up description to me.


Skill Checks (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Glossary:Skill_Check) in DDO:EU have always been quite different from Saves (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Glossary:Save_%28Saving_Throw%29). But since the spell description states "ability checks" it's easy to see why the OP and I were both confused in the first place.

If "ability checks" is intended to include saving throws as well as skill checks then the wording of the spell should probably be adjusted to reflect that. The Devs have been doing a fabulous job of making descriptions clearer and more concise as time goes by, but as indicated in Borror0's List of Vague and Incorrect Descriptions (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=179128) the problem is more prevelant for items/spells that have been around for a while.

So again, I pose the question: is the spell WAI or not.


symbol of pain has always lowered our saves by 4 as far back as i can remember it being cast.

I have never looked at my saving throws while under the effect of a Symbol of Pain so I have to assume that Spyderwolf is correct. But that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the spell is WAI. It just goes back to the the spell description and what the term "ability checks" is supposed to encompass.

[TheDjinnFor]

Ability scores are the str/dex/con/int/wis/cha, obviously. Hence an "ability check" would be anything that uses these as a key modifier (as opposed to skills, which use your skill ranks as a key modifier, or saves, which are based off of your class and level). Ability scores are only minor modifiers for skills and saves.

But, to be quite honest, such a boost would be useless in DDO, considering how few checks are actually ability checks. I think what may be happening is that they used the original PHB description but changed it to saves when they realized the only times enemies make ability checks is to resist trip and some other junk.

As such, symbol of pain might be just like a moderate-duration, mass Curse spell; which would actually make it one of the most potent debuffs in the game...