Vets and Casuals: Callig the Truce

[ghortagg]

Since last September, there’s an ongoing war between the group vaguely known as «*vets*» and the blobbing mass known as casual.
While it’s entertaining and keeping the forum mods busy, it’s dividing the community and it’s not a very good thing.

Here i’m trying to settle things down and to have a peaceful discussion.


The Situation

1)DDO (Stormreach) was a niche game, very group centric, quite hard.
I mean: grouping was almost mandatory, Xp death Penalty, Absolute no-forgivness for build mistakes etc

2)DDO (Stormreach) dwindling if not dying
Pick your bane: Vast and Mysterious, DoooOOOOooooM, months and months of nothing, 1 mod each semester (at best)

3)Ddo (Stormreach and unlimited) has been made friendlier to solo and small party
Hirelings, Dungeon Scaling, and now the casual mode

4)Ddo Unlimited is more dynamic
A lot of People around, more fresh content on Monthly basis (almost)



Here i try to point the problems
(and if you think my points lack precision, or that amalgam are made too easily, i would be glad to edit myself)

Disclaimer:
We are all aware that every player is different, there are good and bad players in VIP, Premium and Free to play.
Casuals as Vets can vary from Excellent player to Dumbness made flesh.
here is the typical standpoint, wiith of course plenty of excepion




The «*Vets*»

1)They Have suffered long and hard to get where they are
No shortcuts, no easy button, hours of grinding, of trials and error, of planning and optimizing their next lvl
Point of Conflict : they did it, why others should not*?

2)They have supported the game when it was low
We are all glad They did
Point of Conflict : they don’t feel they had the «*love*» they deserve

3)They don’t feel the last updates was geared to them (mostly endgame)
Dreaming Dark/path of inspiration too easy, Epic is not satisfiying
They need something new something hard
Point of Conflict : Give the Vets something new to do/ improve Epic




The Casuals

1)They come to a complex setting with complex rules and little forgivness
Every Pen&paper DM knwons this: the frightened look in the newb’eyes when he sees the size of the rule book
It takes commitment and time to grasp the logic of the ruleset
Point of Conflict : Character building is not easy nor intuitive, you can very easily gimp a character, and get yelled at for that (not always but still)

2)They may have different gameplay/points of interest
Not everybody (even some vets) is intersested by the same aspect of the game
Many casuals wants to see the content/read the story and care less about being able to finish every quest on elite
Point of Conflict : The difficulty of some dungeon may prevent them from enjoying fully the game

3)They like solo/small team party
Due to Family reason shyness or personnal preference, they prefer playing without annoying any strangers
Point of Conflict : they like playing that, why preventing them from it



The clashing points

I) The noobs are stupid whinners/the vets are mean elitists
Blatant generalisation, mostly false.

The Ddo Community was small and now it has expended quickly. It takes some times to adapt.
Many newbies are eager to get advives from experienced players who, for the lot of them, are happy to give some
There’s bunch of idiots everywhere but i firmly believe when the dust will settle, that people not really hooked by the game will be gone, we all find ourselves in a way stronger community
Solution ? :it takes a little patience to educate the newcomers but in the the end, it will be benecial for everyone

II) The game s too easy, they will not be ready for Raid!
Probably true!

But a large bunch of casuals doesn’t care about raid, they care about enjoying the game/ having a relaxing activity
I know some vets don’t agree with this mindset. Rather lookoing forward challenge and excitation
Solution ? : i hope there’s room for everyone*: raiders, casual, family gameplay
I’d just like to get rid of the «*get out of my game*» non sense
In the end, casual interested in raiding will have to learn the hard way, as any vets did

III) The game was made for grouping, so group!
True, but…

Why play solo in a multiplayer game?
There’s a lot of answers, mainly it is to play on his own, to fail on his own, to follow a specific gameplay (stealth, no zerging, crowd control) etc…
Will it kill group play? no, because forced grouping is gonna make soloer leave the game not making them group
Solution ? : once again patience and education, It’s not that hard to go from a solo play or group play, and let the soloers on their side of the street they will be happy

IV The Target of the game is now fresh new Premium player, and not VIP Vets
Yes Indeed!

Here’s the bet: pemium will get hooked, and ressources will help building a better game for everybody
Solution ? out of ideas here


From now, i would appreciate further contribution, contradictory arguments, in order to bring a little peace and allow the debate to make the community progress as a whole.

Thank you for Reading


PS: please refrain to whine or to flame, there’s plenty of thread for doing that, we re trying to have a contructive debate
PS2: English is not my native language, my apologies for poor syntax and grammar

[Khazeous]

But... we like the drama! Why would we keep coming here if it wasn't for the entertainment some might call a trainwreck happening over and over? :confused:

[SolarDawning]

+1 rep.
These are all solid points. I was hung up on the grammar a little, but it's not your native language, so no worries.

It is a basic truth that most all discord is caused by generalization and stereotyping on both sides. Theres smart "newbs", who roll their first character with an understanding of all the game rules, and what they want to play in endgame raids, just as there's "noobs", who constantly ask how to swim downwards...

I've also played with 2+ year vets who have misconceptions on some fundamental rules of the game, and absolutely cannot be shaken from their mistaken beliefs.

There's no "us or them". It's a cooperative game, not a competition.

[Siro]

The clashing points

I) The noobs are stupid whinners/the vets are mean elitists
Blatant generalisation, mostly false.

As a casual vet, I can tell you some generalizations are true.


Solution ? :it takes a little patience to educate the newcomers but in the the end, it will be benecial for everyone

As a returning vet, I found myself viewed as a noob. Learning the new stuff cured this, just as you say.


Solution ? : i hope there’s room for everyone*: raiders, casual, family gameplay
I’d just like to get rid of the «*get out of my game*» non sense
In the end, casual interested in raiding will have to learn the hard way, as any vets did

Agreed! The last raid I did before I left was Tempest Spine. I didn't know any of the raids, didn't have the gear for them, and was fairly unprepared for a number of the harder quests too. Learning the hard way is fine, but there are also a LOT of guides on the forum that can make it quite a bit easier!


Solution ? : once again patience and education, It’s not that hard to go from a solo play or group play, and let the soloers on their side of the street they will be happy

If the soloers are soloing, I don't even know how this became a problem??


Solution ? out of ideas here

Ultimately, the same stuff that will appeal to vets will also appeal to newer players, later. So long as there is an even spread of quests from 1-20, there should be enough content for everyone. Get a character up to 20 and run out of content? True Reincarnate and do newer mid level content that was added after you hit 20!

[Grond]

I must have missed the war, except on the forums. In game, I find little difference between new players and veterans, other than player knowledge of dungeons.

[Captain_Wizbang]

It is threads like this that keep any issues live!

As "seasoned" players, those that have seen 3 or more mods come along, also have seen an influx of new players, and the same thing happens every time!

Now, granted the new F2P business model has dramatically increased these numbers, SO,, it is not a new thing!

STOP putting blame on ANYTHING, And give it a rest!
Your thread had so much spam in it, I didnt even bother reading it all!
Whats that tell you?

The issue is the amount of new players, and not the new player itself.

We all start from somewhere, now dont we!

[Kalari]

The situation

1. Ended with the coming of mod 6 I believe where xp debt was eliminated, solo was added to more options and it was only hard for those who chose to try to solo classes that were not built for such or geared for such.

2. The dying did not come till just a few weeks before EU after a dismal anniversary, the promise of mod 9 being dangled over our heads and being told we couldnt be told anything because it was Vast and Mysterious. It hit a nerve with many long term players thus creating a near exodus, which is finally starting to recover many long term players are coming back happily because of level cap, new content and the ability to have more then 7 characters.

I think new players fail to understand how restricting it was to only be able to build 7 characters (think we could get up to 10 or more with a bug with favor) have them all at or near cap (which varied from 10, 14, 16) and have to run the same content over and over, there was no korthos starter or lowbie twink flaming gear it was running the same thing over and over for years.

3. On the same foot it has been made too easy in some areas thus annoying many players who found nothing wrong with the slight changes made. You think this was bad when they first introduced the end of exp debt (something I came in on the tail end of) people were up in arms. we are veering away from D&D the invoking of Gary's Gygax name zomg you just dont know. You think we are new to over reacting to big changes? This is a regular thing that has been going on for 4 years and believe me you'll feel your right of passage after your first year here and you get hit with a big change you may be like some who say "meh its a game roll it off your back" or you can be like others who get nervous and up in arms.

(this is just to address your first section I will the others if you wish me to)

Point blank no matter what people think even with those leaving or threatening to leave ( I know I cancelled my sub after they delayed Mod 9..er EU in august but got convinced by friends to be patient) None of us were prepared when they announced in June that we were going free to play.

Now some tried to say "maybe the game was tanking so bad we had to go there" I think this speculation is whats leading many to believe "Free to play has saved your arse" those comments annoy me to no end. So your telling me that they put in a model telling people who were holding two or more accounts to stop giving them money and go free? Yeah thats not logical period. Also many have pointed out that ddo was a prime mmo for them to "Test" this new model on due to the age of the game, the current flow of players (even if we were disgruntle) and the fact that unlike other games that had longer term subscription plans (we have no life time options only monthly or the 6 month plans) that this could work for them.

It was a testing ground folks they have said it themselves and ddo was the best candidate if it was really "Failing" so hard I doubt they would have wasted their time using free to save it. Even if new players bring in word of mouth their bread and butter are from paid subscriptions, losing them would kill this game faster then anything.

I speak for myself but I know what my nervousness about free to play was and ive experienced it. For the good you get the bad and truly horrendous, having to hide in game (via anonymous) to stop blind invites which used to be sporadic in the past now the norm. Having people argue over the stupidest things in general chat, being spam telled for plat and items while trying to quest or raid and having full guilds of people harassed for such.

Yes it does draw the lines, but you cannot just go by the forums. A lot of us who vent are just exposing the side of frustrated players who are not used to some of the things that are going on. We just want to get it off our shoulders when we go threw the 10+ blind invites after we tell a person no its rude but they decide "im going to stick it to this vet!" when we get cussed out for not sharing a quest that cannot be shared. As I said in another thread I had to use report on a player..i never had to do that before now its become where some "new players" are so belligerent that its an option for me now. Then add to the whining thread about quests being to hard, having people get an attitude if you try to give them information (had a dude not want to have to read what he needed to do to make his weapons better via stone of change just wanted someone to it for him)

Add all that up and anyone can see where the frustration is coming from. Its like having a private neighborhood with existing by laws for years. Most of the people can at least respect the rules even if we all dont get along and for the most part its a good community to stay in even bring family and friends into. Then the corporation who runs the neighborhood (land title holders what not) decide "hmm we are making money off these people but we havent really renovated in awhile people are looking at other nicer properties because of this maybe we should cover ourselves just in case." They then open up the neighborhood to anyone who can move within the radius. Not afford the area just be able to get themselves there. The neighborhood goes down hill, people who were used to their peace and quiet now deal with loud fights drunken brawls and panhandlers. They have kids dumped in their yard and are told "hey you need to teach them you know what your doing.."

Thats how this change has felt to me cant speak for others but thats how I feel sorry to be long winded but I dont want to feel hate for any new player and think anyone who supports this game despite a new join tag is great. But for all you who are worthy of my respect there are tons (many who dont even bother with the forums) who are jerks. Those are who my anger is targeting and many times new forum posters take offense to that when its not even them im targeting with my ire. And it makes me think "why are they so passionately defending arses unless they are doing the things im ranting about? Its misconceptions and miss-communication and honestly I dont see it going away any time soon. Every new feature thats added that takes away from our norm is going to feel like the neighborhood is catering to the riff raff. This is just my opinion on it.

[DownClan]

The Casuals

1)They come to a complex setting with complex rules and little forgivness
Every Pen&paper DM knwons this: the frightened look in the newb’eyes when he sees the size of the rule book
It takes commitment and time to grasp the logic of the ruleset
Point of Conflict : Character building is not easy nor intuitive, you can very easily gimp a character, and get yelled at for that (not always but still)



This to me is a particularly interesting observation: Character building is very complex, and decisions you are required to make very early on, only really show their impact much later after the character has advanced.

So Turbine should make is easier to make corrections. True Resurrection is clearly *not* a way to "make corrections" - it is instead a way to "level past 20". The other resurrection mechanisms coming in the new update might address the problem - I don't know, I haven't looked at them in enough detail.

But let me throw out an idea: There should be a mechanism that is easily accessible to casual players, that lets them make corrections to their character, including things like changing or removing multi-class selections, adjusting starting stat values, etc. It should have balancing mechanisms like "you lose 25% of the total experience points you have gained, knocking you down in levels", and "you can only do it once every three weeks". It should explicitly *not* have balancing mechanisms like "you must grind lots of content (of whatever level) to find components" or "you can buy the required ingredients in the Turbine Store".

Anyway, back to your post: Good post. From the title, I was all wound up to sneer at your attempt, but what you actually wrote turned me around. I don't think that it will have a wide impact across the community (what percentage of players actually read the forums? 5%? Less?) but I do think that it's a good conversation starter.

--DownClan

[Captain_Wizbang]

The situation

Sorry Kalari, I cant quote that many times!
So... Ill give you this!

/signed

[Captain_Wizbang]

But let me throw out an idea: There should be a mechanism that is easily accessible to casual players, that lets them make corrections to their character, including things like changing or removing multi-class selections, adjusting starting stat values, etc. It should have balancing mechanisms like "you lose 25% of the total experience points you have gained, knocking you down in levels", and "you can only do it once every three weeks". It should explicitly *not* have balancing mechanisms like "you must grind lots of content (of whatever level) to find components" or "you can buy the required ingredients in the Turbine Store".


--DownClan
DUDE! what are you talking about?
Save you OFF TOPIC comments for something else please

[dasein18]

I might have made a post or two making fun of casual level of play. But ulitimately if someone wants to spend their money or time (F2P) this way, that is their business. If it means some folks out there find fun in this game and mabye even advance their play to a higher level after running Casual so be it.

With the other levels of play we longer/higher level players just need to be more deligent about putting in our LFMs the quest and level of difficulty. Put in hard maybe to ward off folks that are not geared or up to running a hard level quest.

In all we are here playing this game to have fun and achieve our in game goals. Keep in perspective that we folks in the game have different goals and play with those that have the similiar goals. It is our individual EXPECTATIONS that create all this drama. Keep your expectations in check with reality and in this case... electronic reality.

My two cents.

[MrWizard]

there is no issue at all, this is the same way it has always been.....the difference between someone who has played a game for quite a while and someone who is new.

it was always that way....since it started. And I imagine most games are.

It takes some, most, a long time to grasp the fundamentals and realities of this particular game. It takes even longer to 'live within the box' and build your characters to suit the game better, grind for gear, etc.


I think the main issue is the mass amount of free players who are just checking it out and do not really care. That can make cohesion a bit difficult and annoying.

We all blew chunks of newbsauce when we started, heck I ran a fighter/sorc up to 5/5 when level cap was 10. I am sure everyone was happy with his participation in the dragon raid....first to die.

real life involves learning how to deal with others.....so deal. Live, learn, play.
Hate, whine, gripe, wish, charity, etc...all are allowed.

but no one is allowed to play halflings, the smelly little buggers.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Cardinal has a real good take on things (he normally does)!

Ill submit this people!
We recruited 4 P2P people this week!
They have almost ALL adventure packs!
They are either finishing shroud flagging, or are running it!
All 4 are good players!
All 4 are good additions to the guild!
And I can take these 4 individuals, and put them in almost any group, with out worrying about their abilities!
Yes they went through the newb banter!
They EARNED the right to be where they are.
And... they had a ball at Pestivault!

SO, my fine feathered friends.... RELAX, Take it easy, (song from Styx)

[Zenako]

The situation

... This is just my opinion on it.

Must spread reputation around....

nice reply, you must have had a mello weekend...no steam from the pixels earholes yet..:)

[Memnir]

Honestly, the one place I see Vets vs. Casual the most is here on the forums. Yes, I have a few things that bother me about the "new" DDO, but I have my coping mechanisms, and I don't let them stress me out.

The perceived problems that new players are bringing to the game have always existed to some degree, the Gen Chat cacophony, occasional chat or trade window begging, etc.... but it's amped up now due to a lot more people playing the game. This is a good problem! And the new problems like "Shareplz" and what not... yeah, it can be annoying for long-time players, but it's not a huge deal. Cope and move on.


The other aspect of new players also remains the same, and to me this is the silver lining: many of them want to do well and learn. The guy in your WW run that you give advice to while he's running his cleric may just be the guy who saves the day in a few months when a quest goes sour. And so on...


The "Casual vs. Vets" debate is mostly a forum issue - because we here all love to debate things. And, in the course of doing so we blow issues out of proportion to what they actually are - and then it becomes an entrenched issue, with bloodletting and teams being formed and never shall the twain agree on anything. That's just forum life. But, it's not reflective of in-game life. So log in and play for a while...



My 2.5 cents - your mileage may vary.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Must spread reputation around....

nice reply, you must have had a mello weekend...no steam from the pixels earholes yet..:)
Yeah, as I read it, I was waiting for the proverbial axe to fall!
Which, btw, I would NOT want to be under

[Kalari]

Must spead reputation around....

nice reply, you must have had a mello weekend...no steam from the pixels earholes yet..:)

Hehe avoiding tax work like a bad girl so playing nice because this is soo going to bite me in the rear.

seriously I dont want their to be big beef between new players and long term players I just think many new players see the gripes against the more idiotic masses and think were all lumping them in. I do not think anyone willing to play the game (not even pay if they cannot afford it) who are kind and respectful deserve any kind of ill will. But just like in any groups the bad tend to stand out more then the good and there are many whiny, give me or else type posters of the new variety to who think "its just a dumb game I can spout off how I like" So yeah lines are drawn but trust me people are going to complain its human nature and you wont always be new that only lasts a few months then you to can be deemed a know it all vet :D

[biggin]

This to me is a particularly interesting observation: Character building is very complex, and decisions you are required to make very early on, only really show their impact much later after the character has advanced.

So Turbine should make is easier to make corrections. True Resurrection is clearly *not* a way to "make corrections" - it is instead a way to "level past 20". The other resurrection mechanisms coming in the new update might address the problem - I don't know, I haven't looked at them in enough detail.

But let me throw out an idea: There should be a mechanism that is easily accessible to casual players, that lets them make corrections to their character, including things like changing or removing multi-class selections, adjusting starting stat values, etc. It should have balancing mechanisms like "you lose 25% of the total experience points you have gained, knocking you down in levels", and "you can only do it once every three weeks". It should explicitly *not* have balancing mechanisms like "you must grind lots of content (of whatever level) to find components" or "you can buy the required ingredients in the Turbine Store".

Anyway, back to your post: Good post. From the title, I was all wound up to sneer at your attempt, but what you actually wrote turned me around. I don't think that it will have a wide impact across the community (what percentage of players actually read the forums? 5%? Less?) but I do think that it's a good conversation starter.

--DownClan

And here is exactly why most vets don't want Casual play. A new player has no idea if the toon they made is completely gimped. If you level him to 4-5 and find out your rogue has no chance of disabling a trap, has a 2 reflex save, at least on Normal, then you haven't invested that much time into it. How bad is it going to feel when you find out you can only Casual group because you built your character wrong? We just want the new players to eventually buy in to DDO, giving more revenue, so we can continue to get more content. Who in there right mind would pay for a game if they are completely restricted to only 1 area of play? I hear the "solo" arguement, but you will see a quest on Normal and want to give it a shot in a group. I would hate to think that from day one all you could ever do is solo Casual because of something that could have been easily corrected from the onset.

I understand a very small percentage of DDO wants to solo. I have had a lot of fun in this game meeting people, laughing at my guildies and friends when they blow themselves up or forget to put a death block item on. These are areas of the game that you will never get to experience. I just don't see why anyone would take that option off the table. We aren't trying to force you to enjoy the game exactly like we do, that's the misconception. We want you to at least have the option, that's all.

[Zippo]

DUDE! what are you talking about?
Save you OFF TOPIC comments for something else please

I'm pretty sure he was trying to address one of the points that the op made. While I don't exactly agree with him, I dont think he was way off topic either.

[MrWizard]

Today's newbs are tomorrow's elitist scum..


remember that......

[Captain_Wizbang]

We aren't trying to force you to enjoy the game exactly like we do, .
HEY BIGG!

Where can I start? Bigg is our hero in the "guild alliance"
The cleric to come in like a shining beacon of light, run to the fight, and die like the stuck pig he became!


Now about that devil run last week, ...


Actually good point bud, Ill have to reread your post to remember it!

[argentstar]

But let me throw out an idea: There should be a mechanism that is easily accessible to casual players, that lets them make corrections to their character, including things like changing or removing multi-class selections, adjusting starting stat values, etc. It should have balancing mechanisms like "you lose 25% of the total experience points you have gained, knocking you down in levels", and "you can only do it once every three weeks". It should explicitly *not* have balancing mechanisms like "you must grind lots of content (of whatever level) to find components" or "you can buy the required ingredients in the Turbine Store".


You really should read the notes for update 3 (coming soon I hope!). Lesser and Greater +1 ... +3 Resurrection does EXACTLY what your asking for.

Note: I haven't read any farther than your post so someone else may have said this also. Don't kill me please!:D

[Captain_Wizbang]

I'm pretty sure he was trying to address one of the points that the op made. While I don't exactly agree with him, I dont think he was way off topic either.
Leave it to zippo to tear me down again! are you sure you arent on thelanis, in a certain guild?

[Magusrex777]

And here is exactly why most vets don't want Casual play. A new player has no idea if the toon they made is completely gimped. If you level him to 4-5 and find out your rogue has no chance of disabling a trap, has a 2 reflex save, at least on Normal, then you haven't invested that much time into it. How bad is it going to feel when you find out you can only Casual group because you built your character wrong? We just want the new players to eventually buy in to DDO, giving more revenue, so we can continue to get more content. Who in there right mind would pay for a game if they are completely restricted to only 1 area of play? I hear the "solo" arguement, but you will see a quest on Normal and want to give it a shot in a group. I would hate to think that from day one all you could ever do is solo Casual because of something that could have been easily corrected from the onset.

I understand a very small percentage of DDO wants to solo. I have had a lot of fun in this game meeting people, laughing at my guildies and friends when they blow themselves up or forget to put a death block item on. These are areas of the game that you will never get to experience. I just don't see why anyone would take that option off the table. We aren't trying to force you to enjoy the game exactly like we do, that's the misconception. We want you to at least have the option, that's all.

What percentage wants to solo? The casual players that never wishes to group with the more serious player now has more content available to them. That is awesome for them. I actually believe it help more than hurt. Now an inexperienced player can learn a quest at casual level, master it then do it at normal a little bit harder, then hard, then elite, then maybe epic. It is just one more difficulty level, choices are good.

To the OP, it is worth a try, I have tried myself http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215817 . There is a lot of bitter baggage that is too hard for some to let go of. I applaud your effort.

[Tin_Dragon]

I) The noobs are stupid whinners



Keeping the Xoriat hate alive, 1 quote at a time.

[Josh]

I can't understand this mindset of playing a video game to "relax". What gives with that? Go play Hello Kitty or Second Life if you want to relax while gaming. Am I the only one with this mindset? Please explain.

[Magusrex777]

I can't understand this mindset of playing a video game to "relax". What gives with that? Go play Hello Kitty or Second Life if you want to relax while gaming. Am I the only one with this mindset? Please explain.

Is this real? Why do you play? would be my first question. I play video games to provide me with entertainment this makes me for a short period not think about about some of the more serious things that occupy my mind, this allows me to "relax".

[Captain_Wizbang]

What percentage wants to solo? .
Don't go down this road!
LOTS of "seasoned" players run solo on leet just for GP!
Agreed on the pint of new players learning stuff, but...
1 more thing!
DON"T ever pick on BIGG!
He's the guildalliance hero!

[Milolyen]

*snip*

Now some tried to say "maybe the game was tanking so bad we had to go there" I think this speculation is whats leading many to believe "Free to play has saved your arse" those comments annoy me to no end. So your telling me that they put in a model telling people who were holding two or more accounts to stop giving them money and go free? Yeah thats not logical period. Also many have pointed out that ddo was a prime mmo for them to "Test" this new model on due to the age of the game, the current flow of players (even if we were disgruntle) and the fact that unlike other games that had longer term subscription plans (we have no life time options only monthly or the 6 month plans) that this could work for them.

It was a testing ground folks they have said it themselves and ddo was the best candidate if it was really "Failing" so hard I doubt they would have wasted their time using free to save it. Even if new players bring in word of mouth their bread and butter are from paid subscriptions, losing them would kill this game faster then anything.


I agree with pretty much every thing you said there Kalari ... just wanted to expand on this point though.

They took away the WDA's (Weekly Developement Activities which was a list of all the bug fix's and new features they had ready to go into the next update) back in june of 08 and sited that they had "been working full-tilt on several things that are still under tight wraps" as one of the reasons.

One of those things that was being worked on was nicknamed "Super Secret" and if I remember correctly was first referenced late 2007. So what does this mean? It means they started working on the whole F2P thing over 2 and a half years before Unlimited's release and that it was a cause for slower and smaller content releases (which is what was hurting the game and put it into a position where it did need to be saved).

To those that want to claim that this "new influx" of players saved a dieing game I just want to point out one of the main reason DDO was as low on population as what it was ... is because they did work on F2P. It was a gamble/test on Turbines part to see how it turned out. They lost a LOT of players in that 2.5 years due to the ammount of content released. A lot of those people that they lost were good players and friends of us vets. Right now it feels a little like Turbine basically traded those people in for the free 2 play crowd. Then what was once a nice peacefull and relaxing game has been turned into one that has been dumbed down and made super easy and filled with loud abnoxous people with a chip on their shoulder that think "vets should be gratefull to us because we saved this game" and that this game should be made even easier than it already is.

I am not by any means saying that everyone that came in since they heard about f2p is like what is stated above ... far from it. I don't have a problem helping people that are new and truely want to learn and have fun. Its just since F2P came out the game has had a hundred thousand percent increase of loud and abnoxous players that us vets are not really used to and don't want to get used to.

I really like Kilari's "private neighborhood" compairison.

Milolyen

BTW http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149498&highlight=WDA is where/when they talk about the removal of WDA's.

[Captain_Wizbang]

They took away the WDA's
I really like Kilari's "private neighborhood" compairison.

Milolyen

BTW http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149498&highlight=WDA is where/when they talk about the removal of WDA's.
A little off topic, just wondering if this F2P, and the stoppage of the WDA was part of the Turbine vs Atari fiasco!
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/sheilds/vinny-560x330.jpg?t=1263239902

[Vengenance]

Funny thing, this weekend on my TR'd Favored Soul I was called an elitist for bagging on the poor play of the tank and ranger in an Elite STK run.

My comment was that if you insist on running a quest on "Elite" then the strategies and tactics you use should accomodate the dungeon setting. This was right after the main tank and ranger got killed in the spike trap on part 1. We had a rogue in the party, a call for traps was issued by the rogue, the rogue was searching for the trap and yet the fighter and ranger went ahead through the traps and got killed. I informed both parties that I "DO" not heal people who "RUN" through traps and "DIE." If they don't care about their health then I'm not going to deplete resources on healing them.

Right after this the leader of the party called me an elitist and left group, and with him two other went. The remaining two got themselves killed by the spiders while the leader and I were exchanging tells, like "quiter, etc." I then proceeded to run my "Elitist" self to the end of the quest, kill the baddies solo, get everyone their xp and favor and made a friend of the rogue.

Morale of the story, this is why us "Vets" have such a problem with running with the newer players. All of the new players want to run content on Elite instead of first learning to run the content on normal and learning to play their characters. If that same group were to run the quest on normal I wouldn't have said a thing, would've kept everyone healed and maybe given out a couple of pointers if necessary. When in a quest with new players I try to just go with the flow on normal setting, if they want to search for everything, do every optional, w/e. If it's fun for them then no big deal, it's their group that I joined. But if you're going to try to run a quest above your level on Elite then you'd better bring your "A" game if you expect me to expend a bunch of resources on a party destined to wipe.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Funny thing, this weekend on my TR'd Favored Soul I was called an elitist for bagging on the poor play of the tank and ranger in an Elite STK run.

My comment was that if you insist on running a quest on "Elite" then the strategies and tactics you use should accomodate the dungeon setting. This was right after the main tank and ranger got killed in the spike trap on part 1. We had a rogue in the party, a call for traps was issued by the rogue, the rogue was searching for the trap and yet the fighter and ranger went ahead through the traps and got killed. I informed both parties that I "DO" not heal people who "RUN" through traps and "DIE." If they don't care about their health then I'm not going to deplete resources on healing them.

Right after this the leader of the party called me an elitist and left group, and with him two other went. The remaining two got themselves killed by the spiders while the leader and I were exchanging tells, like "quiter, etc." I then proceeded to run my "Elitist" self to the end of the quest, kill the baddies solo, get everyone their xp and favor and made a friend of the rogue.

Morale of the story, this is why us "Vets" have such a problem with running with the newer players. All of the new players want to run content on Elite instead of first learning to run the content on normal and learning to play their characters. If that same group were to run the quest on normal I wouldn't have said a thing, would've kept everyone healed and maybe given out a couple of pointers if necessary. When in a quest with new players I try to just go with the flow on normal setting, if they want to search for everything, do every optional, w/e. If it's fun for them then no big deal, it's their group that I joined. But if you're going to try to run a quest above your level on Elite then you'd better bring your "A" game if you expect me to expend a bunch of resources on a party destined to wipe.

/signed ;)

We have recruited 4 new members this past week, P2P people, that "get it"
And not only use all the tools (character planner, request a build forums etc...) but, also ask questions, and are willing to listen to the "seasoned" players!
Learning this game game is a lot like RL experiences!.. an evolution, and everyday should present itself with a challenge and learning curve!

[Milolyen]

I can't understand this mindset of playing a video game to "relax". What gives with that? Go play Hello Kitty or Second Life if you want to relax while gaming. Am I the only one with this mindset? Please explain.

Dude a game is supposed to be fun. For most people a game is NOT fun when it is stressfull. The opposite of stressfull is what now? RELAXING. The most fun I have in game (other than my first time through new content where no one knows what to expect) is getting in a group with friends, drinking a few beers and enjoying quests. To me that is very relaxing ... takes my mind off work, takes my mind off bills or anything else that I may be going through. I also know of many other people that have this same attitude.

Milolyen

[LordMond]

The "content grinding" aspect of this game is certainly no worse than it was in the original Everquest. Anyone else remember "camping" the orcs in the Commons? Or the birdies in the Karanas? Same group of six...same spot...for HOURS. Now to me that would be "content grinding". Sure, you repeat quests in DDO but do any of them take hours? In DDO, if the same group hangs together for more than 2 quests, it's a bloody miracle.

I thought that the OP had some good points. I've read several of these threads that give takes on the casual vs. vet 'confrontation' and I still for the life of me cannot see how adding a feature that makes the game simpler affects those who will not avail themselves of such a feature, except to the extent that those who level up on a steady diet of casual play will not pull their own weight if and when they decide to go raiding. But that raises a question: are there going to be that many people who only play casual that you're not going to be able to fill end-game raid groups unless you add some of them? Is server population THAT low? Maybe it is...but, if that's true, then the game has far more worries than just an influx of casual players.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

2 cents from me.

1) The game is not "hard and complex". Its an "easy to learn, hard to master". I went head first in this game, avoiding forums and info at first... Yes, I made a "battle cleric" (and even by battle cleric standards, it was awful). I noticed soon enough how bad it was for most things, and without even respecing a feat, I was able to get it to level 20 with it being "effective". At least, I've only met one healer that was in a whole other league than me (note: I did not say I only met one who was better than me. Met a lot. But only one that was playing on a whole other level), my stats are ok, I don't die in the Shavarath area, my parties are efficient enough, etc. My subsequent characters were superior, obviously, but my point is that unless you do something COMPLETLY dumb (like starting a wizard with minimum int), you can do ToD on normal sooner or later. Sure, you won't be running shroud on elite in a 6 man party in <10 minutes, but you'll have access to 99% of the content that people actually run.

You can optimise and min/max a character until you're blue (and its fun to do so), but even knowing very little about the game, you can make an "acceptable" character. That is in opposition to, let say, FFXI (at least last i played. I heard it changed a lot in the last few years), where if you didn't have one of a few specific archetype, you were a waste of a party slot.

2) Most importantly: My personal issue with casual isn't even the casual players. Its the hardcore players who try to do everything as efficiently as possible. Will you ever see a non-guild party ever doing Enter the Kobold on normal anymore? No one does this for XP or loot, so whats the point of not doing it on casual, from an efficiency point of view? What about quests with named loot that has a fixed drop rate? Many named loots are not affected by the difficulty you run the quest at, or even if it does, its not "efficient" to bother (read: Shroud).

If you can still flag everything while playing casual, and named loot drop rate is not significantly affected (Pray on the Hunter, Stealer of Soul, Shroud, etc), we'll have entire raids of "hardcore" players zerging these quests on casual non-stop.

THAT is a big problem. The casuals don't affect me. They have their fun, I have mine. But when even the hardcores start running stuff on casual so they can flag or farm more efficiently...the fun is over. Shroud is boring as it is after the first 75 times, if people don't even have to look at the screen to do it, whats the point?

I would be ok with casual if:

A) Certain quest flagging doesn't work on casual (ToD, Vale, Reaver's, Tor...). I'm not looking forward to it being impossible to find a party to do these quests on anything but casual outside of guild groups. May be countered if there's more reasons to farm favor than there is now, I guess.

B) Named loot is drastically affected by difficulty level, INCLUDING stuff that currently has a 100% drop rate on normal (ie: Tempest Runes, Shroud ingredients, etc)

Do that, and I'll personally be happy.

[dasein18]

I can't understand this mindset of playing a video game to "relax". What gives with that? Go play Hello Kitty or Second Life if you want to relax while gaming. Am I the only one with this mindset? Please explain.

What kind of job do you have in RL?

I play to at times to challange myself as I am very goal driven.. other times to take my mind off my high level job responsibilities. However, I push my play to the highest level I can. Don't confuse being intense or a power gamer with ones ability to relax from RL's pressures. I for one can do both.

It is very easy to judge how others live their life. It takes more to understand that we all are motivated in different ways and therefore our needs from life are different. Hence the want for some to relax by playing. That is why it is called play. Recreation is another interesting word in my opinon. I often contemplate this word when in a recreation park or national wilderness... to.. Re... create.. oneself.

that is "what gives with that". I am sure you are not the only one with the mindset that gaming is so very very serious.. oh so serious.

[Josh]

Is this real? Why do you play? would be my first question. I play video games to provide me with entertainment this makes me for a short period not think about about some of the more serious things that occupy my mind, this allows me to "relax".

Yes it's real, and thanks for the neg rep for me asking someone to explain a mindset I don't have.

I was asking someone to explain how playing a video game like DDO is "relaxing", because to me it's not. That's why I said I didn't understand. What you are talking about sounds more like a diversion, and not relaxing. When I think of relaxing, I think of laying on the couch watching TV drinking a beer or something like that.

What I do not think of is playing a video game like DDO. There are games that I guess could be relaxing (which are the two I mentioned) but DDO is not one of them. DDO is too fast paced for me to consider to be "relaxing". To me, playing DDO is like playing GTA IV. It's not relaxing, but it is fun.

[Kalari]

The "content grinding" aspect of this game is certainly no worse than it was in the original Everquest. Anyone else remember "camping" the orcs in the Commons? Or the birdies in the Karanas? Same group of six...same spot...for HOURS. Now to me that would be "content grinding". Sure, you repeat quests in DDO but do any of them take hours? In DDO, if the same group hangs together for more than 2 quests, it's a bloody miracle.

I thought that the OP had some good points. I've read several of these threads that give takes on the casual vs. vet 'confrontation' and I still for the life of me cannot see how adding a feature that makes the game simpler affects those who will not avail themselves of such a feature, except to the extent that those who level up on a steady diet of casual play will not pull their own weight if and when they decide to go raiding. But that raises a question: are there going to be that many people who only play casual that you're not going to be able to fill end-game raid groups unless you add some of them? Is server population THAT low? Maybe it is...but, if that's true, then the game has far more worries than just an influx of casual players.

I'll be the first to admit on my part its probably a lot of paranoid speculation. You do have to realize we went 3 years one way and in the matter of a few months did a complete upheaval of everything we knew. Now I made the tie in to when I first joinned ddo and seeing the up roar in the forums about the end of xp debt, even then people blew things out of proportion the same arguments you see against casual being added was thrown about when this was introduced.

Point blank no one likes to see something they felt they earned threw learning and achieving given away. It may not seem right especially to those who dont take the game seriously or dont care but to some it does sting to see some of the ease put into this game on the percieved notion that "making it easier will bring more dollars."

I dont think its about the population of the server either yes from the original servers they went down to 5 so there is proof that the game had stall points but I know that many people were coming as they were going to this game many people had 2 or more full subscribed accounts as well. If this game was so bad I honestly dont think they would have worked as long as they did converting it to free to play they would have cut their losses and focused on Lotro which has a strong player base and AC which has a loyal. I think DDO had aspects of both and was the better middle ground to try this new way on. But the whole arguments of what saved this game is very speculative and people fail to realize that.

We get that with the things we think are bad the easing the game the dumbing down to some there are good things. More character slots means no more having to take a character I love off one server to another just so I dont have to delete. Heck even getting to an easy level 4 is nice at times because god knows how many times you can run that starter area before your head wants to explode. Just like there are good things about the new there are bad and the bad will always stand out when you have a place to rant on it. People are always going to be up in arms when there is change, but you all have to realize that this change to the game has been the most drastic. You dont just go changing the status quo thats been around for years and have people just go "well gee thats peachy."

I fully believe all of this will die down but its still fresh we are still inundated with those who really dont give a rats arse about the game and they make it known even a few who have dared to post on here have said so in threads. So when faced with the changes and new attitude some bring yes many of us who have been here are hostile and wary. But I do believe it will die down it just will take time.

[biggin]

What percentage wants to solo? The casual players that never wishes to group with the more serious player now has more content available to them. That is awesome for them. I actually believe it help more than hurt. Now an inexperienced player can learn a quest at casual level, master it then do it at normal a little bit harder, then hard, then elite, then maybe epic. It is just one more difficulty level, choices are good.

To the OP, it is worth a try, I have tried myself http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215817 . There is a lot of bitter baggage that is too hard for some to let go of. I applaud your effort.

But that's the point I've been trying to make that it seems a lot of the new players simply don't want to listen to. Let me put it this way......
Let's say you get a video game, open it, throw away the manual and start to play it. After a few hours you realize that you keep dying at the very beginning. Do you say, "Well, I already threw the manual in the trash so I better have the company change this game and make it easier." Or would most say,"OK, maybe this isn't PAC-man, I better read up."

I understand the arguement for casual play. The point is with little investment in time on a new players part, Normal setting would be the same as Casual, but you would be getting more XP and better loot. Don't you want to find nice equipment? Don't you want to have more plat, better spells, etc?

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that if a low level quest on Normal is too hard for you, then spend the 5 seconds it takes to type in the search engine the type of character you want to play and spend another 5 minutes reading. That's all it would take.

BTW, it's np Laggin, I use the forums to discuss, not argue, I kinda ignore tone. :)

[Milolyen]

A little off topic, just wondering if this F2P, and the stoppage of the WDA was part of the Turbine vs Atari fiasco!
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/sheilds/vinny-560x330.jpg?t=1263239902

One could most likely make a case that their decision to test the F2P on DDO versus one of the other games was because of issues with Atari. The two bigest issues the population 2.5 years ago had with this game was content and advertising. Atari was responsible for the advertising and could also point out that content would not be as much of an issue if they did not force turbine to release DDO 6 months ahead of schedual (but the delay/content is another discussion altogether).

Now that I think about it a little more, They probably realized the game would not reach its full potention with the way the game was currently and they wanted to figure out a way to overcome the challenges they were facing in this game. Don't know what is in the contract but looking at the big picture now, the contract may have been that Atari was responsible for advertising the game and selling the box game but there was no mention of microtransaction. Maybe they could advertise and make money on microtransactions without being in violation of the contract. They wanted the game to grow (which is nearly impossible to do without advertising) so they figured that would be the way to go.

Note this is all just a guess from the things I have seen and read on the forums and I could very likely to be way off base.

Milolyen

[DANTEIL]

Morale of the story, this is why us "Vets" have such a problem with running with the newer players. All of the new players want to run content on Elite instead of first learning to run the content on normal and learning to play their characters.

This nicely makes one of the points of the OP: vast generalizations supposedly about "all" of the new players. Insert a "some" or two into that (e.g., 'some newer players'), and it would be less likely to put other people on the defensive.

[Josh]

What kind of job do you have in RL?

I play to at times to challange myself as I am very goal driven.. other times to take my mind off my high level job responsibilities. However, I push my play to the highest level I can. Don't confuse being intense or a power gamer with ones ability to relax from RL's pressures. I for one can do both.

It is very easy to judge how others live their life. It takes more to understand that we all are motivated in different ways and therefore our needs from life are different. Hence the want for some to relax by playing. That is why it is called play. Recreation is another interesting word in my opinon. I often contemplate this word when in a recreation park or national wilderness... to.. Re... create.. oneself.

that is "what gives with that". I am sure you are not the only one with the mindset that gaming is so very very serious.. oh so serious.

I'm a chemical engineer, not that I see what that has to do with anything.

Where did I ever say gaming was "oh so serious"? It's not to me. I see what you're saying though. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I still don't consider DDO a "relaxing" pasttime though.It's a frakkin action game after all.

[lyeman]

Since last September, there’s an ongoing war between the group vaguely known as «*vets*» and the blobbing mass known as casual.
While it’s entertaining and keeping the forum mods busy, it’s dividing the community and it’s not a very good thing.


My 2cp:

They should revert the entire game back to mod 8 and scrap every change since.

IMHO, we have gained little and lost much.

This was supposed to be a niche game for the hard core D&D'r, not "Hello Kitty Online".

Yes, we have more content, but little of it is worthwhile for the loot, and none of it is fun.

As for the new players, I don't mind helping people learn, but many seem to have the attitude that they shouldn't have to think, and when the 20 minute easy quest turns into an hour-long struggle only to wipe at the end, it ruins the game for everyone.

[Magusrex777]

Yes it's real, and thanks for the neg rep for me asking someone to explain a mindset I don't have.

I was asking someone to explain how playing a video game like DDO is "relaxing", because to me it's not. That's why I said I didn't understand. What you are talking about sounds more like a diversion, and not relaxing. When I think of relaxing, I think of laying on the couch watching TV drinking a beer or something like that.

What I do not think of is playing a video game like DDO. There are games that I guess could be relaxing (which are the two I mentioned) but DDO is not one of them. DDO is too fast paced for me to consider to be "relaxing". To me, playing DDO is like playing GTA IV. It's not relaxing, but it is fun.

I cannot give anyone negative rep. Pretty much only the forum veterans can do this. Are you sure you did not get grey rep, meaning a person tried to give you positive rep but lacked the rep necessary to do so. Different people relax differently :)

[Captain_Wizbang]

One could most likely make a case that their decision to test the F2P on DDO versus one of the other games was because of issues with Atari. The two bigest issues the population 2.5 years ago had with this game was content and advertising. Atari was responsible for the advertising and could also point out that content would not be as much of an issue if they did not force turbine to release DDO 6 months ahead of schedual (but the delay/content is another discussion altogether).

Now that I think about it a little more, They probably realized the game would not reach its full potention with the way the game was currently and they wanted to figure out a way to overcome the challenges they were facing in this game. Don't know what is in the contract but looking at the big picture now, the contract may have been that Atari was responsible for advertising the game and selling the box game but there was no mention of microtransaction. Maybe they could advertise and make money on microtransactions without being in violation of the contract. They wanted the game to grow (which is nearly impossible to do without advertising) so they figured that would be the way to go.

Note this is all just a guess from the things I have seen and read on the forums and I could very likely to be way off base.

Milolyen
Hmm, ty, intersting stuff, pm me if you hear anything else

[dasein18]

I'm a chemical engineer, not that I see what that has to do with anything.

Where did I ever say gaming was "oh so serious"? It's not to me. I see what you're saying though. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I still don't consider DDO a "relaxing" pasttime though.It's a frakkin action game after all.

Greetings fellow engineer. I guess I could see someone with a job that can be less stressful maybe saying that. Proves that you never know someone's view on the world and their RL situation here. Did not mean to offend.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Greetings fellow engineer. I guess I could see someone with a job that can be less stressful maybe saying that. Proves that you never know someone's view on the world and their RL situation here. Did not mean to offend.
+1 cardinal!;)

[Zippo]

Leave it to zippo to tear me down again! are you sure you arent on thelanis, in a certain guild?

Not sure what guild you are referring too but I started on tharashk ( kinda dates me in the ddo world) was with Remember Honor for the longest time and about a year ago switched to khyber and now over on cannith so odds are no.


edit: that was supposed to read in not I'm..... thats what I get for posting from my phone while at work.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Not sure what guild you are referring too but I started on tharashk ( kinda dates me I'm the ddo world) was with Remember Honor for the longest time and about a year ago switched to khyber and now over on cannith so odds are no.
LOL, not meant in a bad way zipppo!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Funny thing, this weekend on my TR'd Favored Soul I was called an elitist for bagging on the poor play of the tank and ranger in an Elite STK run.

My comment was that if you insist on running a quest on "Elite" then the strategies and tactics you use should accomodate the dungeon setting. This was right after the main tank and ranger got killed in the spike trap on part 1. We had a rogue in the party, a call for traps was issued by the rogue, the rogue was searching for the trap and yet the fighter and ranger went ahead through the traps and got killed. I informed both parties that I "DO" not heal people who "RUN" through traps and "DIE." If they don't care about their health then I'm not going to deplete resources on healing them.

Right after this the leader of the party called me an elitist and left group, and with him two other went. The remaining two got themselves killed by the spiders while the leader and I were exchanging tells, like "quiter, etc." I then proceeded to run my "Elitist" self to the end of the quest, kill the baddies solo, get everyone their xp and favor and made a friend of the rogue.

Morale of the story, this is why us "Vets" have such a problem with running with the newer players. All of the new players want to run content on Elite instead of first learning to run the content on normal and learning to play their characters. If that same group were to run the quest on normal I wouldn't have said a thing, would've kept everyone healed and maybe given out a couple of pointers if necessary. When in a quest with new players I try to just go with the flow on normal setting, if they want to search for everything, do every optional, w/e. If it's fun for them then no big deal, it's their group that I joined. But if you're going to try to run a quest above your level on Elite then you'd better bring your "A" game if you expect me to expend a bunch of resources on a party destined to wipe.

Somehow I think you just proved both sides of this argument. :cool:

[Veodore]

OP, I really admire your intent and effort here. You make good points, and I can see a lot of thought went into the post.

My recommendation, however, is just don't worry about it.

The problems you state aren't actually problems (IMO). They're debate topics that exist (almost) exclusively on the forums. The forum game is to debate, and debate hard. That's what we do here. When you see us ripping into each other as if we're about to come to blows, please understand that we're not.

I don't know about the other hard debaters on this forum, but I've never (not once) been angry about a forum post. I've never honestly believed I was standing up for some great cause. I give my opinions. I agree or disagree with others here. I disagree rather vehemently with some folks on this forum.

That said, if I got an invite from any one of them in-game, I'd accept it. And the first thing I would say is, "Hey, it's you! I hope you don't take me too seriously on the forums. It's all just the thrill of debate."

I suspect the vast majority would say something along the lines of "Same here," and we'd go adventuring.

So while your points are valid, and your intent is truly admirable, there's no need to sweat it. In game, the DDO community is--without question--the friendliest MMO commuinty I've ever played with.

Please don't misinterpret our forum debate game with a serious rift in the playerbase. It's really not. In SWG, it was NGE vs Pre-cu. In EQ2, raiders vs casuals. In all MMOs I've played that has PVP it's been PVPers vs Carebears.

If an MMO doesn't have any hot issues that are debated furiously on the forums, that's when there's a major problem... because it means that MMO doesn't have a community that cares enough about the game to post about the things that bother them.

[KayJMM]

Somehow I think you just proved both sides of this argument. :cool:

Talon... This... is pure gold!!!!!

++++Rep!

[Kalari]

My sentiments exactly Veodore and +1 when I can give it. You see I take the fact that I can get so passionate about ddo as a good sign. The moment I become meh even in the forums of this game.. yeah you can count that me walking away will be not to far behind.

[Dirac]

I say no truce. There may be more casuals, but we vets have better gear. I vote war until unconditional surrender.

[DANTEIL]

I say no truce. There may be more casuals, but we vets have better gear. I vote war until unconditional surrender.

That's the theme of the new update 4 quest: "Mired in Newbies." Uber vets are swarmed by gimpy monk/sorc/wiz's all spamming the new "Ray of Shareplz" spell. Boss newbies cast "Blind Invite." It's a tough fight, but it does eventually flag you for a Casual raid.

[dasein18]

+1 cardinal!;)

Laggin is that you? You trying to court me? I am blushing and flattered.

[lyeman]

That's the theme of the new update 4 quest: "Mired in Newbies." Uber vets are swarmed by gimpy monk/sorc/wiz's all spamming the new "Ray of Shareplz" spell. Boss newbies cast "Blind Invite." It's a tough fight, but it does eventually flag you for a Casual raid.

Let me guess; it's a 3 hour timed assault by level .25 kobolds, and then you automatically wipe at 2:59, right? Just like playing with newbies!

[Zippo]

LOL, not meant in a bad way zipppo!

Sorry missed the intent in the comment then :o.

For what it's worth at the time I was at work and my knee was killing me so I didn't have my head completely in the game so to speak.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Laggin is that you? You trying to court me? I am blushing and flattered.

Tis I bud! Court you? not a chance! Hairy legs is a turn off old friend!


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/5dfbe8e5.jpg?t=1263251476

[Tin_Dragon]

I say no truce. There may be more casuals, but we vets have better gear. I vote war until unconditional surrender.

QFT!


It used be Xoriat vs the rest of the DDO servers, Turbine saw the dominance we brought, and merged us with the Role players to try and dial us down. It just upped our game.

All these n00bs simply make us try harder to show them how poor of players they really are, making us more elite.

numbers mean nothing against a battle hardened, equipped and organized force of special force style operatives. And the same thing keeping these "casual" (or n00bs) from getting ahead, will keep them falling further behind.

Bringing the Xoriat hate, 1 quote at a time :cool:

[ripperj]

I must have missed the war, except on the forums. In game, I find little difference between new players and veterans, other than player knowledge of dungeons.

+1

out in the game, its not even as big as everyone is makin it out to be
or maybe im just lucky, but we choose who we party with, so just droppin and possibly formin
your own with a lil sumtin'sumting in the LFM will cure all the problems

recenty had a party with one person with no speakers, so coodnt hear the five of us on voice
dude kept runnin ahead, causing trouble(btw were doin shadow series)
we get to the crypt and basically threaten to drop the guy if he doesnt follow
worked out well after that:)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon... This... is pure gold!!!!!

++++Rep!

:D

I will just never understand why people who can solo a dungeon care if other people are getting themselves killed.

If I see two people die in an elite trap, and we have a Rogue, I usually target the Rogue and do a /wait.
"Talon waits for the Rogue."

Grab their stones afterwards and take them to a shrine and drop them off.
I don't wait fore them to use the shrine. I don't immediately heal them.
Just run out the door and back to the action.

Without a word.

No words necessary.

They know they died for a stupid reason.
me calling them stupid is not going to teach them anything else.


if people die in the beginning of Proof is in the Posion and do not release,
Then they get to spend a whole lot of time watching me play with some pulling tactics, and observing me using some resist pots and a bunch of my own healng pots to keep going.....and having a whole lot more fun then they are being ghosts.

I will tell them that the shrine is a long way away. But I'll leave it up to them if they want to release or not.

I get a whole lot of time with a captive audiance to do some teaching in battle tactics.

No reason for rubbing it in with any words what-so-ever.

Bad Freshen the Air elite run....whole party dying in the big crate room.
Same thing.
Keep my mouth shut. Range crates. Kill whatever agroes on me in the safety of the tunnel.
Sneak to get stones and take them to shrine.

I don't have to tell people how stupid they are for not using some tactics.

They get several minutes of time-out to think about it as they watch me succeed against the same things that killed all five of them.

Without me saying anything to make it worse or cause more any hard feelings.


You can bring your A game without telling others to bring theirs.
And you can show them how to play smart without telling them that they play stupid.

[Pyromaniac]

IV The Target of the game is now fresh new Premium player, and not VIP Vets


VIP vets got reincarnation as a end game from what I can tell - that benefits VIP vets more than anyone else. For premium, you don't get access to all quests unless you buy them - which would be expensive given the XP reincarnation requirements.

The last mod got such poor reviews that nobody plays it on my server and I suspect sales to premium were poor. Agreed that Epic has issues - again hardly anyone wants to do the Epic grind. Prestige classes apppear to be on the backburner as they are taking forever to come out, more than 1 year since they were announced.

For some, I guess reincarnation is a good end game. To me its like stabbing myself in the eye with a spoon playing with the majority of new players. In general, the new players don't listen, don't read the forums, don't try to play effectively or get better. They value DDO for what they paid for it - $0.00.

The majority of development resources are going towards the casual player. That's fine, its just time to reduce vet playtime and look for alternative games.

Casual Development
-Last two mods of new quests

Vet Development
-Reincarnation
-Epic
Note: Both of these require little actual work to design and implement unlike new quests

I went premium and don't regret that decision too much, as I can play less whenever I want and not feel like I've got a monthly fee. If I realized that nobody would play Epic and that it was going to be all about reincarnating with F2P players, I probably wouldn't have dropped the cash on premium at all.

[KKDragonLord]

Lol, and i came here expecting to see people saying that Truce is huge exaggeration.

There are lots of new players
thats good for the game
thats bad for game experience as some part of those players will be unpleasant to run with

It will take a long time until the new crowd solidifies into a large enough portion to make common etiquette become widespread once more such as no blind invites etc...

Frustration that comes from running with new players that dont have patience, sense or politeness is a normal thing, venting it out is inevitable.

Frustration that comes from running a quest with vets that don't have patience to avoid zerging all by themselves is also a normal thing

Frustration of and against DPS elitists is also normal and mostly its bigger on the forums than it really is out there

Good player material will be the ones that enjoy learning the game and challenging themselves, they are a small portion of the new players out there and they will be here to stay

the average of the new players are just testing the waters and they might go good or bad depending of their own mindests

the bad player material is inevitable,some dont care to learn and want things to be too easy instead of getting better at it, some are just plain rude, some just dont care, they might get better or they might quit, truthfully a portion of the new players will always be like this because there always will be new players. Its a side effect of something positive.

There are many changes that came around, vets are certainly outnumbered this time and thats why we will have to endure all the blind invites, all the chat spamming, all the bad experiences.But we all know that this too will pass, in the future the new players will become vets and eventually we will outnumber them once more.

We all know this, of course there is drama in the forums, there always has been, but its not a War, this whole talk of Truce is disproportional to the reality of things.

Its also as normal as the drama because we all want to believe that the Forums have a greater importance and impact on the game than it actually does.

[lyeman]

:D

I will just never understand why people who can solo a dungeon care if other people are getting themselves killed.



Because they tend to get me killed while they're at it.

[Visty]

Because they tend to get me killed while they're at it.

plus its 10% xp loss

[BracchusBridgeburner]

- not everyone can play during peak hours where there are plenty of grouping opportunities. something like this needed to be implemented for them whether the vets who had to walk uphill both ways to school in a snowstorm back in the day like it or not ;)

- ddo even with all the new changes doesn't have a large enough subsciber base to support a game that leans heavily on needing teams. The influx we're seeing right now will eventually plateau and then die down a little. Just because some folks stuck with it when it was a lot tougher still doesn't make it right.

- this is going to get implemented anyway so you might as well accept it

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Because they tend to get me killed while they're at it.

I've always disagreed with that.

They contribute to it, yes.

But you always had the option of running away and preserving your own life.

I had one group practically call me a coward for runing away.
One guy in the group defended me, saying I was doing better then all of them. (they were dead)
And I came back and got their stones on my terms. In a way I could handle.


Of course I die too.
And yes, it's quite often because someone else did something really stupid.

But ultimately my life is in my hands.

All that experiance should also teach us how to overcome those bad situations too IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

plus its 10% xp loss

Yes. True.

But only once.

And vets die too.

And I think it's a little to much to expect a flawless run all the time.

I consider myself an expert on staying alive in DDO, yet I still die often.

Usually by rolling a low roll on a save, but for whatever the reason, it happens.

And since most vet's only real tactic is to have more DPS and healing available, I would say that 10% isn't that important to most.

Multiple reentries bother me.
People who cause a wipe and then readily volunteer to hold the instance for the rest of us bothers me.

Some quests it is real hard to survive with a bad group.
Only so much I can do in Shadow King by myself for instance. Especially if I'm not playing a caster.

Or taking down a boss with a bunch of idiots.

But I see a lot of unjustified hate and critisism out there.

[lyeman]

I've always disagreed with that.

They contribute to it, yes.

But you always had the option of running away and preserving your own life.

I had one group practically call me a coward for runing away.
One guy in the group defended me, saying I was doing better then all of them. (they were dead)
And I came back and got their stones on my terms. In a way I could handle.


Of course I die too.
And yes, it's quite often because someone else did something really stupid.

But ultimately my life is in my hands.

All that experiance should also teach us how to overcome those bad situations too IMO.

Without dungeon alert, you might have a point, but with DA, someone on the other side of the dungeon can get me killed just by aggro'ing a bunch of mobs.

[victorey84]

I'm actually breaking my habit of reading a thread in full this time to make sure that I make this post before I lose interest in the thread.

I believe that most newcomers will naturally end up learning as part of the process, at varying rates of course. However, it is important to remember that learning never stops, not even for veterans for whom it is easy to assume they know most of what's relevant.

The common, voiced, opinion seems to fall along the lines of vet/vip vs noob/f2p. However, it is my opinion, that like most things in life it is rarely that simple. There are various orthogonal lines of conflict responsible for the current situation.

First, the significant influx of new players, regardless of their paying status, is obviously a source of conflict. In any game, and perhaps society, there is a certain status quo maintained by the majority. As long as the amount of new players at any time is a small fraction of that total, even if the turnover is high, that status quo is relatively stable, though not necessarily static. In particular, keep in mind that some, possibly significant, portion of newcomers will readily seek to adapt to the status quo, such that the rate of new players can be be significant without disturbing this balance.

Second, the introduction of a new business model: F2P and micro-transactions. IMO, this is significant but not in the way that seems to be commonly perceived. Because subscription-based games and F2P games tend to be mutually exclusive there's two relatively isolated communities with preconceived perceptions of each other as well as different expectations and habits. By merging both communities it is clear that some friction is going to happen because of these differences.

Before I continue I'll provide a brief analysis of the F2P model because it is not as straightforward as subscriptions and I feel that many(some?) vets have misconceptions about it. There are many entirely F2P games without the option of subscriptions beyond at most an occasional implementation of recurring purchase of micro-transactional points. At least several of these games that I've been on have just as many servers as DDO has -now-. I say this only to put it into perspective that F2P is a very viable model.

Though I do not know exact numbers, I believe that it is common that F2P survive in part due to the 90/10 rule. Or 80/20, 70/30, whatever the numbers. A small percent of the playerbase pays enough to cover the rest of the playerbase. Seriously, there are people who can and will spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month on a game.

However, that does not mean that only that small percent of the playerbase spends any money at all on the game. Though I have read some comments around the forums around the idea of whether F2P players are freeloaders or not, without even getting into side effects of their presence, I do think that a significant portion of the "Free"2P side spends at least -some- money. This is the reason for micro-transactions. On one side you have the subscription, game-as-a-service, lease-like model, and on the other side you have the micro-transaction, game-as-a-product, virtual-property model. Some people don't like the idea of being obliged to continue paying for something, but would rather pay just one time and have access to it forever.

On the other hand, there are also economical reasons for why some people cannot afford to spend much. How come there isn't a micro-subscription model? Instead of an all-or-nothing subscription, you pay $1 a month per section of content or whatever. This is also an incidental reason why micro-transactions favor people who would otherwise not pay for a subscription model.

I have seen a sort of perceived duality with regards to newcomers, they are assumed to be F2P players, and hence viewed as either freeloaders whose only purpose is to "fill" server space, or as potential future VIPers. Forgive my exaggeration if you don't agree, I am just trying to contrast various extreme opinions I've seen before. The reality will obviously lie somewhere in between. But considering just those new players that have come from WoW, a subscription-based game, it would not be surprising that they would also be VIP here. And going back to those rich gamers who spend fortunes, they need reasons to do so, such as a large population to interact, and hence trade in-game.

Ok, I'm running out of steam, so I'll try to finish this long post.

Turbine has essentially connected two relatively disjoint communities of online gamers -- actually, if I were looking beyond this thread, I'd say it's more than two, since pen and paper veterans could be considered a third group -- and each is going to have to let go of its preconceived notions towards the other and learn to accept each other's style of gaming.

And yes, F2P is probably the main reason for the large influx of new players, but that does not mean that all new players are necessarily F2P.

If that was too long then just take this home:
Remember that that annoying noob is just as likely to be a WoW-kid with a VIP subscription thanks to Daddy's credit card as he is to be a hardcore pure Free To Play gamer, or even a "veteran" who has been playing nonstop all these years yet somehow managed to avoid learning anything.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Without dungeon alert, you might have a point, but with DA, someone on the other side of the dungeon can get me killed just by aggro'ing a bunch of mobs.

That is a very valid point.

DA is horrible, especially when it jumps from nothing to red in such a short time that you can't prepare for it.

I'll have to admit the someone else causing a red alert has killed me quite a few times.

Not much I can do, when I can't move. :(