Archery balanced?

[Damionic]

So with the new Arcane Archer tricks listed in Update 3....is Archery now balanced?

[Arlith]

So with the new Arcane Archer tricks listed in Update 3....is Archery now balanced?

No.

[Faelyndel]

Not balanced, no. But I reckon it at least makes it more viable for people who've chosen for RP or just general preference to take the Arcane Archer line. It gives ranged combat a little extra bump, but it's still certainly not in line with melee DPS, and most definitely nowhere near Tempest.

[wolflordnexus]

I saw that arcane prodigy could be replacing mental toughness a few questions

1) can you take arcane prodigy with no spell points and would it give you the spell points even though you don't normally have any

2) Fighters cap stone does it work with ranged weapons

3) If both of these work would an elf fighter 20 kensai archer do an acceptable level of damage taking into account slaying and force burst enhancements for the relative safety that archery affords

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It wont be balanced till it works for all classes reguardles of feats/enhancements.

It does mean Arcane Archers are more powerful than before.
But I do not believe that they will be equal to melee.

But I'm reserving judgement for now.

It's great news for Arcane Archers.
Might even make them respected eventually. At least a tricked out one.

It does nothing for other archers, or laymen who need to use a ranged weapon on occasion.

And the laymen need the most help IMO.

[Arlith]

It wont be balanced till it works for all classes reguardles of feats/enhancements.

And the laymen need the most help IMO.

Maybe you could clarify that a little. Because it kind of sounded to me like you think everyone should be equal with a bow regardless of feats/enhancements.

[Aesop]

I saw that arcane prodigy could be replacing mental toughness a few questions

1) can you take arcane prodigy with no spell points and would it give you the spell points even though you don't normally have any

2) Fighters cap stone does it work with ranged weapons

3) If both of these work would an elf fighter 20 kensai archer do an acceptable level of damage taking into account slaying and force burst enhancements for the relative safety that archery affords


1: Nope. Eladrin Clarified in one of the threads

2: Unsure... would like to hope so... but not certain

3: No... but it would be better than it currently is.

Aesop

[Aesop]

Maybe you could clarify that a little. Because it kind of sounded to me like you think everyone should be equal with a bow regardless of feats/enhancements.

No he means some idiot with a single sword still does more DPS than a fully tricked out archer.

while an idiot with a bow is just that. They don't do a farts worth of damage.

You can't fix a style by making it so only the most tricked out class with said style is acceptable. You make it so that someone who has rudimentary ability in the style is roughly equal (though equality isn't just a DPS arguement) to someone with rudimentary ability in any of the other styles.


This isn't just about damage however. Archers, in theory, avoid more out going damage because they are further away from the melee mobs.

The problem though, is that with the way healing, AC, Concealment, DR, etc work, the incoming damage would have to be significantly greater than it is for the Archer distance advantage to be truly a good balancing feature against the decreased outgoing damage.

Couple that with poor AI: Range: Group interactions and you hae a difficult style of play.

Add to the the long waits between shots and you have bored pcs waiting for the next arrow to knock.

Its one of the problems with the way they "fixed" Sword and Bored (yes I know how to spell it). They said "hey, look at these two PrEs for the classes that use S&B the most... don't they make S&B balanced?"

To which I say no. You cannot balance a style by giving a specific class uber enhancements for it. You balance a style by giving the style a make over.


For Archery

1. Adjust AI interaction. I've pulled aggro way too easily off raging barbarians for Ranged Aggro to be working correctly. Also if The Mob can't get to me they should either start range attacking me or taking cover. This would reduce Kiting without use of Leash Laws that only annoy PCs anyway. A leash should only apply if we don't attack the mob for a certain time frame after moving out of its patrol area.

2. Single Target DPS. This comes from two sources. RoA(Rate of Attack) and DpA(Damage per Attack).

-RoA: Archers fire slower than any other style by a significant margin. Like 40% slower. Reduce that in half. Perhaps a flat 10% RoA increase and then move up from there. This would also require modifying the Ranger Capstone. I'd say make it a 15% RoA upgrade and throw a secondary bonus in there. Perhaps an increase in PBS range or something. Additionally an idea was also put forth to have the bulk of the RoA increase only apply while standing still. I think that may be a good way to go about it. However all archery moving or not still needs a RoA increase

DpA: IPS is actually decent DPS in limited situations. However in the highlevel situations where single target DPS is more important that tagging 10 guys running at you down a hall... Archery lacks sorely. Add in a Power Attack like Feat for Ranged Combat.

example:
Over Draw
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active (Toggle)
While using Over Draw mode, you trade 2 of your attack bonus for double the bonus to damage. At BAB 6 and every 6 BAB thereafter the trade increases by 1. (-3 Attack +6 Damage at BAB 6, -4,+8 at 12 etc)

Requirements: Bow Strength

3: Tactical Ability: While it works running backwards in a circle works sometimes its also tedious, tiresome and NOT group friendly. Add some other tactical abilities (that don't rely on weapon augmentations)

example:
Ranged Pin
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Usage: Active
Target: Foe, Directional, Breakable
Duration: 30 seconds
Using this attack, you may pin the target, rendering it pinned. Some creatures may be immune to this effect. Pinned creatures may attempt to make a Strength check every 2 seconds to escape(DC 10 + Str mod). Incorporeal creatures and oozes are immune to this effect


This isn't the be all end all of how to balace ranged combat and make it fun... but it is a few ideas on a direction.

Aesop

[whysper]

Yes, archery is balanced. Just as before.

[Memnir]

It's better with Arcane Archer's upgrades, but not all better.

[Angelus_dead]

You can't fix a style by making it so only the most tricked out class with said style is acceptable.
That can be done in general, but not in this case. It depends on what kind of game features the product is claiming to provide. For example, Unarmed Combat is a style, and it is totally acceptable that the huge majority of characters completely suck at it: according to the setting, it would not be frequently used for serious combat.

But ranged combat is not supposed to be an oddball exotic technique: to accurately represent standard fantasy tropes, it should be a viable choice for typical soldier-types to select in common tactical situations. To do otherwise is to fail at what the game was trying to provide.

PS. According to the simple calculation, top-level Arcane Archer gains +26 average damage per shot. That sounds like a lot!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Maybe you could clarify that a little. Because it kind of sounded to me like you think everyone should be equal with a bow regardless of feats/enhancements.

I mean that every char should have a useful ranged attack option.

Currently is a Barbarian wants to take out a perched archer, and decides to pull out a bow, he will fire so slowly that it is comical to watch.

And a Wizard out of SP who pulls out a crossbow is even worse.

Currently ranged combat for someone without rapidshot is so rediculously slow that it might as well be useless.

A Rgr can already do some decent damage with a bow.
Not as much as melee, but at least it is useful.
So can any char who invests in the feats to be a good archer.

But even then they are behind melee.

But at least a dedicated archer has a valid ranged option.

A char with no feats or enhancments for ranged basically has no ranged option,. because it is worthless.

But that same char can pull out a melee weapon and actually kill something in a decent amount of time....if he can stay alive long enough.
Even a wizard can do effective melee.

Not stellar DPS, but at least it is useful.

But a Pal or Brb, or a Ftr, does not have an efective ranged attack IMO.

That needs to be fixed more than anything else about ranged.

Full fledged archer builds can already do some acceptible damage.
Maybe not acceptible to the uber elite crowd, but it is acceptible non the less.

It is way behind melee, but at least it has some value.

While a ranged weapon has zero value to any non archer build.


I'm glad Arcane Archers got a boost.
But I'll be more glad when ranged combat for every char gets a boost.


And that boost will also help archers.
And it will help them even more because if it helps other players, they will use ranged tactics when it makes sense to do so...which will help an archer shine even more, as they cooperate with him.

[Aesop]

That can be done in general, but not in this case. It depends on what kind of game features the product is claiming to provide. For example, Unarmed Combat is a style, and it is totally acceptable that the huge majority of characters completely suck at it: according to the setting, it would not be frequently used for serious combat.

But ranged combat is not supposed to be an oddball exotic technique: to accurately represent standard fantasy tropes, it should be a viable choice for typical soldier-types to select in common tactical situations. To do otherwise is to fail at what the game was trying to provide.

PS. According to the simple calculation, top-level Arcane Archer gains +26 average damage per shot. That sounds like a lot!

Yep you are correct there.

Though I would also add that having Superior Unarmed Combat would be a nice Feat addition ... I don't always want a Monk characters but I sometimes want one that hits things

I also think that there should be something added for single hand weapon no shield combat styles to make that an optional and viable choice... just because this is a Fantasy game and having all weapon styles viable would make ... I'd say people, but I'll stick with "me" happy. More stylistic choices and more diversity makes me happy

Aesop

[Angelus_dead]

Though I would also add that having Superior Unarmed Combat would be a nice Feat addition
It would be cool for non-monks to be allowed to spend the regular feats to learn unarmed fighting, but the effort required to make new attack animations cannot be justified.


I also think that there should be something added for single hand weapon no shield combat styles to make that an optional and viable choice
That would also be cool, and I have occasionally written suggestions to that effect. However, the same problem occurs: since the DDO developers already can't handle effective balance between S&B, TWF, THF, ranged, and spells, tossing another style into the mix would just make things worse.

[Aesop]

It would be cool for non-monks to be allowed to spend the regular feats to learn unarmed fighting, but the effort required to make new attack animations cannot be justified.


That would also be cool, and I have occasionally written suggestions to that effect. However, the same problem occurs: since the DDO developers already can't handle effective balance between S&B, TWF, THF, ranged, and spells, tossing another style into the mix would just make things worse.

Still... there's always hope... and a geek can dream :)

Aesop

[Mjesko]

example:
Over Draw
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active (Toggle)
While using Over Draw mode, you trade 2 of your attack bonus for double the bonus to damage. At BAB 6 and every 6 BAB thereafter the trade increases by 1. (-3 Attack +6 Damage at BAB 6, -4,+8 at 12 etc)

Requirements: Bow Strength


I think the feat Deadly Aim (Pathfinder) would be better:

Prerequisite: Dex 13 and BAB 1
Benefit: -1 penalty to attack and +2 to damage. At BAB 4 and every +4 thereafter the penalty increases by -1 and the damage by +2.

[ProdigalGuru]

Perhaps Archery is not underpowered, but Tempest is overpowered.

Archery is only sub-par when compared with this, right?

So nerf Tempest, problem solved.

[Visty]

Perhaps Archery is not underpowered, but Tempest is overpowered.

Archery is only sub-par when compared with this, right?

So nerf Tempest, problem solved.

has nothing to do about tempest, its about twf

[ProdigalGuru]

I blame R.A. Salvatore.

[Jacoby]

Balanced?

Why does everything have to be balanced. D&D is not about being balanced! Remove that thought from your head, this is not WoW, this is the original game that everyone else copies from.

We will discuss this no more.


It does make archers immensely more powerful in bursts. Archers were already more powerful than melee when played correctly, although melee's will obviously deny that. PvP is where you learn the truth about who is more powerful. Clerics, Sorcs and Pally's tend to be dominant.

[Aesop]

has nothing to do about tempest, its about twf

actually DPS wise its weak vs all other styles not just TWF.

The only time its not is during the 20 manyshot or if a hallway lines up with mobs

Aesop

[Fetchi]

Balanced?

Archers were already more powerful than melee when played correctly, although melee's will obviously deny that. PvP is where you learn the truth about who is more powerful. Clerics, Sorcs and Pally's tend to be dominant.

Completely false.

[whysper]

Balanced?

Why does everything have to be balanced. D&D is not about being balanced! Remove that thought from your head, this is not WoW, this is the original game that everyone else copies from.

We will discuss this no more.

DDO is only tenuously connected to D&D. The ranged combat rules are completely different from D&D, so your argument is outright invalid.

Precisely this means that, to the DDO developers, ranged combat is "balanced." Just as it was.