Several Healers - no work distribution?

[Kirachan]

Well, I started a cleric recently, and though I mostly play with two other friends, I now have enough confidence to pug often.

Now, I started out with Guild Wars, and there you usually have two monks (the healer class) in a party, and they split the task either with one of them playing pure healer and the other concentrating on damage reduction and negating damage, or they split the party members and they concentrate on healing their allocated 4 members. That way they don't spent mana unnecessarily by healing the same person twice.

In DDO I have yet to see something like that. I proposed it once, in one of my first pugs as a cleric. I should concentrate on healing, the other cleric wanted to buff. In the end he ended up healing every small sliver of health that I would leave over (cause there's really no reason to splurge on your mana) and then got annoyed because I didn't resist anyone (cause I thought that was his job) and he insisted I didn't do my job properly cause he still had to heal and how should he have mana for both?

Afterwards I left it to the other healer to bring it up, especially if they where in the party first, but nobody ever mentioned anything about splitting the job. Perhaps at lvl. 10 it's not yet difficult enough to justify it, though I assume it might make some quests a bit easier if we would, especially during raids. Or is it even mandatory later on?
Perhaps I should make some more attempts to bring it up, what do you think about it?

[sirgog]

Most players consider a group optimal if it has 1 healer in 6 players, or 2-3 in a raid. In groups with more than that, I usually recommend that the cleric or FvS most suited to taking an offensive role (either through melee DPS, crowd control, spell DPS, vorpals or instakill spells) focuses on doing that while the rest heal. The one playing the offensive role will usually buff.

Few encounters are healing-intensive enough to require any particular coordination amongst healers. Elite Shroud is probably the main encounter that's made much easier by healer coordination (have exactly six melees on Arraetrikos at any one time, two clerics alternate casting quickened Mass Heal each cooldown so that the six melees receive one heal per four seconds), but even that encounter isn't tough enough to *require* that strategy, so most people instead prefer to have all melees in and the clerics spamming mana-inefficient Mass Cure spells.

[Kirachan]

Well, you don't just get optimal groups. It happened often enough that we had 2 healers in a group, and still both where out of mana. So in cases like that more coordination would certainly have helped, but then it's already too late.

[Sinni]

having played various other mmorpgs i was also used to split up the healer's job to save sp, especially since sp is a really limited resource in DDO. And i made the same experience as you, when there was a second healer i often proposed to split the party up, in about 50% of the cases the answer was along the lines "no, that's too much of a hassle"...
sure, often it isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt either.

i also made the experience that a lot of people like to heal every little bit of damage, during and after fights. i tend to save my sp and use larger spells instead. it often ends the way that the other healer is out of sp and i still have over half of them.

tough i have to admit i haven't got a healer above lvl 15 (clr 13, clr 15 both retired and my current main a fvs 14)

[Kalari]

If my healers are in a group (outside raids of course) and another healer is in the party I tend to ask right off the bat if the other healer is heal focus or combat, if they say heal I work on fighting with weapons and spot healing. If they say combat I watch the parties health bars more carefully. Communication in this game is key for any party make up but especially when more players with the ability to heal are in the party. And that goes for arcanes who heal warforge as well. Nothing is worst then hitting reconstruct just as another person is doing it. So not to waste sp its always nice to try to coordinate with your group whats what. Its not 100 percent but it does save on headaches a lot of the time.

[Angelus_dead]

In DDO I have yet to see something like that. I proposed it once, in one of my first pugs as a cleric. I should concentrate on healing, the other cleric wanted to buff.
That's not a real useful way to split it, because buffing and healing won't really happen at the same time.

Helpful splits include:
* "You buff Bob and Tom, I'll buff Cathy and Morbo plus mass"
* "I'll be main healer at first, then you take over when I go below 25% mana"
* "If anyone dies, Bambi will rez and rebuff- but don't go back in until the death pen is off"
* "Puke and I will heal Zod, while Earl heals anyone else"
* "How about I madstone?"

[sephiroth1084]

I don't play a healer, but I run into this on my wizard on a semi-regular basis.

-I try to split buffing where I ask or designate certain buffs for each/any of us, such as:
-I'll do GH and Blur
-You do Resists (usually 2), and Mass Protect

Sometimes, though, no degree of planning or assigning of roles will help. This comes up a lot when I'm in the same situation you were--I'll be in a raid and say that I'll babysit a W, yet every time their health dips a tiny bit and stay there without my tossing a Reconstruct at them, some cleric or some other caster tops them off, probably over-healing. In that situation, you can reassert that you're on babysitter duty, or just let them take care of it while still keeping an eye toward their health when it dips too low.

[Anderei]

The thing is DDO works completly differnt than Guildwars. I never have a problem when going with another healer focused devine caster. Most of the time it works without explizit coordination. Eitherone is the primar party healer the other second, if you are secondary and you notice a healthbar being down longer than a few secs throw over a heal, or if you see someones go down really fast. If you notice the other healer going down on mana, and you got plenty take over as primary healer. If both have nice mana, throw in more offensive spells.

When you got two heal focused devine casters on a 6-party go down on mana between two shrines your party is making something else horrific wrong other than work destribution between healers, either you think you picked elite when you arent elite, you got no crowdcontrol, run throw traps witout a rogue. Honestly without wanting to be offensive, but this kind of sounds like typical guildwars thinking (and I have been a GW monk some years ago)... if the party fails it must be the healers fault, even if it are two! Notice you wont notice this at DDO, because here its even more wrong than in GW.

[gwlech]

One of the great things about DDO is that a "healer" is capable of so much more than healing. Even a healing-specced cleric or favored soul (the two most assumed to be healers) can DPS/CC/Debuff as well.

Except for some of the most intense situations, a good cleric in this game SHOULD do more than just stand back and throw heals and an occasional curative spell.

[Kalari]

One of the great things about DDO is that a "healer" is capable of so much more than healing. Even a healing-specced cleric or favored soul (the two most assumed to be healers) can DPS/CC/Debuff as well.

Except for some of the most intense situations, a good cleric in this game SHOULD do more than just stand back and throw heals and an occasional curative spell.

The only thing that limits this is "Player Mentality" People see a healing icon thats the only thing they expect the class to do. And some roll up the classes expecting only to do that. Its all about dimensions and many wont even try to see the classes multi abilities they just think "I have heal bar I be heal bot" Or you have heal spells thats what your good for.

My favored soul prefers to melee wont lie I do watch my parties health but if I can cut stuff down its even better. Hence why if I join and theres another favored soul/cleric I'll ask them "healing or fighting?" If they say healing I know I can fight (something I really enjoy) if they say Fighting I know even if I want to mix it up I'll have to keep my attention on the others in my party more. Once again communication makes for the work distribution in this game. If you have two of any of the same class in your group or raid and no one is asking what should I do? Or no one is saying to each other "hey what did you want to do with your mana?" then your in a bad group.

[gwlech]

The only thing that limits this is "Player Mentality" People see a healing icon thats the only thing they expect the class to do. And some roll up the classes expecting only to do that. Its all about dimensions and many wont even try to see the classes multi abilities they just think "I have heal bar I be heal bot" Or you have heal spells thats what your good for.

My favored soul prefers to melee wont lie I do watch my parties health but if I can cut stuff down its even better. Hence why if I join and theres another favored soul/cleric I'll ask them "healing or fighting?" If they say healing I know I can fight (something I really enjoy) if they say Fighting I know even if I want to mix it up I'll have to keep my attention on the others in my party more. Once again communication makes for the work distribution in this game. If you have two of any of the same class in your group or raid and no one is asking what should I do? Or no one is saying to each other "hey what did you want to do with your mana?" then your in a bad group.

I agree with this 100%. Pigeonholing classes is how one can create "dead weight" in a group. A good healer can fight and heal at the same time, regardless of build or level. If someone is going into the group with the assumed role of "healbot" what are they usually doing when they aren't healing someone? Usually standing around and following the group.

[Kirachan]

Honestly without wanting to be offensive, but this kind of sounds like typical guildwars thinking (and I have been a GW monk some years ago)... if the party fails it must be the healers fault, even if it are two! Notice you wont notice this at DDO, because here its even more wrong than in GW.

No, I played GW a very long time and know it's not the healer's fault in most cases. In GW even more than in DDO bad teamplay or gameplay can **** up everything very fast no matter how good the healers are.
But I do think work distribution would make a bad group more manageable.

Thanks for everyones opinion. I will try to be more forthright and offer to split jobs instead of waiting for the other healers to mention it. While my cleric's not build for much fighting, I still can do some CC when I have the time to skill for it.

[Anderei]

You get Command at lvl 1 Greate Command at lvl ?.
Both spells are excellent for CC.

Also a good party (with a good tank) will be able to do most 6-party dungeons at least on hard without a cleric at all, or just an occasional healup between fights. The mechanics a really very different to GW or WoW.

[Kirachan]

You get Command at lvl 1 Greate Command at lvl ?.
Both spells are excellent for CC.

Greater at lvl 9. Yes, I always have Command with me and it still works well even at lv. 10.



Also a good party (with a good tank) will be able to do most 6-party dungeons at least on hard without a cleric at all, or just an occasional healup between fights.
Well, if I don't play with my friends I pug, so I get everything from good to downright stupid.
In a good group it's no problem, but you can't really see what it's gonna be beforehand. There are some signs if it might be a decent group or not, but they can be very misleading.
Had a group yesterday for TS, and it was a mess before we started, no real organisation, everyone screaming in voice chat, several people dead before everyone was even in. Still, once we got going we basically just flattened everything.

[ProdigalGuru]

You play with bad PuGs.

Adults that communicate find coordination quite simple.

[Kirachan]

Sure, but it's not as if there's such a big selection of pugs to be had. Better a bad pug that gets the job done then not playing at all.

[ProdigalGuru]

Not necessarily.

Especially if you could solo or duo the content in half the time with a quarter of the repair bill and resources used.

Your communication is all that is necessary. If they create a hassle over it, they do not have the team's interest at heart.

I would be happy to PuG with you, but of course the first person to enter the group and say "share" would get my quest bomb, and that would annoy you and make you boot and squelch me.

This would be your loss.

[hermespan]

In non-raids I just let the other guy heal til he's out of mana, then I DV him, tell him to save it in case he needs to res me and take over. If someone gets below half health I hit them with a heal.

Problem solved. If anyone asks why I'm not doing anything I tell them that we'll just end up double healing and wasting mana so I'm going to take over when he's out of mana.

Nobody's ever had a problem with it and we save a **** ton of mana.

Explaining things situationally like that ensures that the other players will actually care about what you are saying. If you try to tell the party what to do up front you come off as being bossy and no one will care what you are saying, at least in PuGs. You'll just end up double healing and wasting mana.

Depending on the other guy to actually not heal when he doesn't need to has never worked for me.

[Kalari]

But it doesnt have to come off as bossy. It never ceases to amaze me why adults in a video game are so afraid to say things like "hey I see your a cleric/ fv <insert sp bar type here> so am I are you healing or melee focused? These few words can save you mana if you know up front.

Or hey I like to heal people but if your going to as well maybe I can throw some offensive spells or if youd like try out yours. Ive had plenty of pugs where weve said stuff like this and no mana is wasted.

It never fails to amaze me how a social game can be full of so many anti social players who are afraid to even talk to each other a bout a little tactics or find out what the other person is going to bring to the party.

[Phidius]

Sure, but it's not as if there's such a big selection of pugs to be had. Better a bad pug that gets the job done then not playing at all.

"Better to solo everything than to chance a bad PUG" is how I view it.

My prefered method to avoid over-healing when there's a 2nd healing class in my group is to develop an over-inflated sense of indignation at being treated like a heal bot, and only heal folks when they are at less than half (assuming they had the good sense to stay close to me). There's an inverse proportion between the number of times I get the "Out of Range" message and how quick I am to heal that person.

[melody-cross]

There is something unmentioned in the OP that needs to be pointed out about backlining in GW. Monks in that game have the ability to respec their skill points to optimum effect for the build they choose to run (or need to), and they are limited to only 8 skills per instance of play...out of hundreds of heals, prots and other skills available to the class and its alternate profession. Granted, the game is "balanced" (a term Izzy never really looked up in Websters) in such a way that some core builds are optimal while others become subpar/trash, but at the end of the fray you boil down to having 16 skills for healing, protecting against damage, res and condi removal.

By speccing as a pure prot character in GW, you assign yourself that role. You would spec points into Protection prayers before entering gameplay and set your bar with skills that used that to effect. The same is expeced of a healer.

In contrast, supports do not spec anything in ddo past spells and equipment. You build your character for the intended role and then shape your spell use and playstyle to suit it. A cleric that is built and bred for smiting would be less effective--possibly suppar--at backlining. Not true for a GW monk, who has the flexibility in town to change all of their stats to suit the next area and mission. So two clerics in ddo that are built to support will probably have similar stats and abilities...which means they are capable of casting the same spell with equal effect. In GW, it is doubtful that two monks in the same groups would HAVE the same spell on the bars, both due to the limitations of skills available in each instance and because of said skillpoint advantages.

The two play philosophies are considerably different when you look at it that way. In GW, monks complement each other. In ddo, support classes come ready made to do wha they are expected to.

Your example, Kirachan, is common of a "bad healer" in most respects. In GW it was rare to top off red bars unless we were between groups (just like its a waste of energy to use mend condi when there is no condi, neh?). In ddo, its a waste of sp to heal 10HP with a 50hp heal. But the answer is entirely situational. An example. lets say that the target has died, losing his buffs, and you res him. You have half of your SP, the buffer is tightened down and waiting for a shrine. Should he pull out a wand to rebuff the dead player when you have resist hotbared? Or, lets say you are in a KD fest and forgot your balance item. Wouldn't you like help if you can't stay up long enough to keep the party alive?

Segregation of roles can be productive in the sense that you don't step on each others toes, but synergy comes when you can react to a situation in the right way. And that takes time, practice (with yourself and your duos) and more than a little patience as you work out who is best at what.

In the end, the closest thing you can expect to synergy in a PuG is a "you heal this half, I'll heal that half and if either of us see something about to die, we'll both jump on the sucker" middleground. Thats pretty true in any game.

GGs