Specced stunner vs high end DC's

[shawnystyle7]

Just curious if anyone has some insight as to what kind of fort saves some of the high end mobs are sporting. I hear a lot of people saying stunning blows are hard to pull of on high end mobs. I assume this factors in fighter enhancements, kensai, racial (dorf/wf), str, etc etc but what about weighted weapons? Not many mellee use blunt and therefore lose potential for weighted.

DC 10+
+12ish str seems fairly modest
+3 dorf tactics
+3 kensai
+4 fighter tactics
+10 weighted

dc of around 42 seems pretty attainable unless im forgetting something.

This isnt good enough to reliably stun lets say an Orthon or bearded devil? Maybe a caster would have a better idea but any feedback would be appreciated.

[WolfSpirit]

+10 Weighted?
I thought it was +1 to DC per 1%. Therfore at best 5% Weighted would incur +5.
No?

[shawnystyle7]

+10 Weighted?
I thought it was +1 to DC per 1%. Therfore at best 5% Weighted would incur +5.
No?

its +2 DC per every percent weighted.

[Kaervas]

Just curious if anyone has some insight as to what kind of fort saves some of the high end mobs are sporting. I hear a lot of people saying stunning blows are hard to pull of on high end mobs. I assume this factors in fighter enhancements, kensai, racial (dorf/wf), str, etc etc but what about weighted weapons? Not many mellee use blunt and therefore lose potential for weighted.

DC 10+
+12ish str seems fairly modest
+3 dorf tactics
+3 kensai
+4 fighter tactics
+10 weighted

dc of around 42 seems pretty attainable unless im forgetting something.

This isnt good enough to reliably stun lets say an Orthon or bearded devil? Maybe a caster would have a better idea but any feedback would be appreciated.

I have a 34 Fort save on my Necromancy spells at the moment and they landed quite well in Bastion after an Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels, it might use the loaded dice that damage spells use for 2d2+4 negative levels).
I can't tell you the mobs exact fort saves though.

42 DC should be reliable. It's effectively the same odds I have to land a Wail/heightened FoD after a perfect Energy Drain.

[shawnystyle7]

I have a 34 Fort save on my Necromancy spells at the moment and they land well after an Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels, it might use the loaded dice that damage spells use for 2d2+4 negative levels).

42 DC should be reliable. It's effectively the same odds I have to land a Wail/heightened FoD after a perfect Energy Drain.

Very nice ty, and this is against high fort save mobs correct?

[Kaervas]

Very nice ty, and this is against high fort save mobs correct?

It's the orthons and bearded devils in Bastion of Power.
On the tieflings I have pretty good odds even without Energy Drain.

Oh, I should add that this is with 6 people on normal mode. So maybe it's not really viable on hard or elite.

[shawnystyle7]

It's the orthons and bearded devils in Bastion of Power.
On the tieflings I have pretty good odds even without Energy Drain.

Oh, I should add that this is with 6 people on normal mode. So maybe it's not really viable on hard or elite.

ty for the info
+rep

[SouCarioca]

Just curious if anyone has some insight as to what kind of fort saves some of the high end mobs are sporting. I hear a lot of people saying stunning blows are hard to pull of on high end mobs. I assume this factors in fighter enhancements, kensai, racial (dorf/wf), str, etc etc but what about weighted weapons? Not many mellee use blunt and therefore lose potential for weighted.

DC 10+
+12ish str seems fairly modest
+3 dorf tactics
+3 kensai
+4 fighter tactics
+10 weighted

dc of around 42 seems pretty attainable unless im forgetting something.

This isnt good enough to reliably stun lets say an Orthon or bearded devil? Maybe a caster would have a better idea but any feedback would be appreciated.

Bear in mind that maxxing out all the enhancements is expensive.

That said, the biggest difference between this and FOD is the cost. A missed Stun is not a big deal, and you'll still be swinging whatever the result. Just a miss and hit in FOD can will cost you 100 SP (heightened), more if you need to soften them up with another spell first.and that will weigh far more in the mage's equation.

Thanks for this post, as it has made me rethink my enhancement specing in the Axe Murderer profile below. I already started it BTW, and have been very pleased with it so far.

[heyytoi]

today i got my guy to 55 Dc on stunning blow!!

[shawnystyle7]

It's the orthons and bearded devils in Bastion of Power.
On the tieflings I have pretty good odds even without Energy Drain.

Oh, I should add that this is with 6 people on normal mode. So maybe it's not really viable on hard or elite.


today i got my guy to 55 Dc on stunning blow!!

holy heck! what +'s wasnt i factoring in there?

[maddmatt70]

A +12 strength for a fighter is pretty low actually when you factor in power surge and the rage spell. Really what you post is closer to a 46 and 47 with rage which is very solid.

[heyytoi]

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt179/nitrous12345/ScreenShot00006.jpg

[SouCarioca]

A +12 strength for a fighter is pretty low actually when you factor in power surge and the rage spell. Really what you post is closer to a 46 and 47 with rage which is very solid.

Would Gloves of Titan's grip overlap? They add +6 psionic bonus to strength .

[Aeneas]

double reincarnate as a fighter for 2 more.

[maddmatt70]

Would Gloves of Titan's grip overlap?

Yes. Gloves of titan overlaps (also titan cookies). There is also TR past fighter lives, +4 str tomes, Madstone, Litany of the dead, multi-class builds as the previous poster illustrated with barbarian levels, etc.

[SouCarioca]

Just curious if anyone has some insight as to what kind of fort saves some of the high end mobs are sporting. I hear a lot of people saying stunning blows are hard to pull of on high end mobs. I assume this factors in fighter enhancements, kensai, racial (dorf/wf), str, etc etc but what about weighted weapons? Not many mellee use blunt and therefore lose potential for weighted.

DC 10+
+12ish str seems fairly modest
+3 dorf tactics
+3 kensai
+4 fighter tactics
+10 weighted

dc of around 42 seems pretty attainable unless im forgetting something.

This isnt good enough to reliably stun lets say an Orthon or bearded devil? Maybe a caster would have a better idea but any feedback would be appreciated.

I took a look at this in the Char planner, wondering whether I had made a mistake in not putting more into this, but now I wonder whether stunning blow will be viable in the later stages. The reason is the sheer cost to get it high enough to be worthwhile.

+3 Dwarf tactics costs a whopping 12 enhancement points (2+4+6), which makes it tough to justify, and Fighter tactics IV would cost a total of 10 (1+2+3+4), in which I had planned to take III.

One option would be to drop Fighter Strength III, and eat a +1 Tome, which would allow me to take an extra 2 Stunning Blow enhancements, but I had planned on keeping the Strength even to eat a +2 tome instead.

Thoughts?

[TheDjinnFor]

I took a look at this in the Char planner, wondering whether I had made a mistake in not putting more into this, but now I wonder whether stunning blow will be viable in the later stages. The reason is the sheer cost to get it high enough to be worthwhile.

+3 Dwarf tactics costs a whopping 12 enhancement points (2+4+6), which makes it tough to justify, and Fighter tactics IV would cost a total of 10 (1+2+3+4), in which I had planned to take III.

One option would be to drop Fighter Strength III, and eat a +1 Tome, which would allow me to take an extra 2 Stunning Blow enhancements, but I had planned on keeping the Strength even to eat a +2 tome instead.

Thoughts?

The only thing I can say is, check out Improved Trip. If your build allows it, like most kensai fighters, you ought to invest in that too (or, heck, just go with regular trip). Take the last six points you throw in dwarf tactics and spend it in improved trip III, and you'll have two extremely potent abilities. Just make sure you've got two feats to spare, because you need Combat Expertise and Int 13 to get Improved Trip.

I'm sure, though, that you're like most fighters I know with a couple of extra toughness feats that you took for the heck of it. When it comes down to it, Improved Trip (or just tripping stuff) is worth more than Stunning Blow at the end game due to the greater number of mobs weak to it and it's ability to remove a mob from the fight for up to a minute. Plus the fact that it's an opposed Str/Dex check to avoid and then a balance check to recover, rather than a fort save, which is generally good for you. If you're taking dwarf tactics, you might as well use it, and when it comes down to enhancement investment you can't go wrong unless your fighter is so twinked out its DPS makes SB and IT irrelevant.

[Sinni]

The only thing I can say is, check out Improved Trip. If your build allows it, like most kensai fighters, you ought to invest in that too (or, heck, just go with regular trip). Take the last six points you throw in dwarf tactics and spend it in improved trip III, and you'll have two extremely potent abilities. Just make sure you've got two feats to spare, because you need Combat Expertise and Int 13 to get Improved Trip.

I'm sure, though, that you're like most fighters I know with a couple of extra toughness feats that you took for the heck of it. When it comes down to it, Improved Trip (or just tripping stuff) is worth more than Stunning Blow at the end game due to the greater number of mobs weak to it and it's ability to remove a mob from the fight for up to a minute. Plus the fact that it's an opposed Str/Dex check to avoid and then a balance check to recover, rather than a fort save, which is generally good for you. If you're taking dwarf tactics, you might as well use it, and when it comes down to enhancement investment you can't go wrong unless your fighter is so twinked out its DPS makes SB and IT irrelevant.

i can only second that. In addition improved trip has a cooldown of 10 seconds where as stunning blow has a 15 sec cooldown. And the DC is also increased by 4.
On my falchion kensai tripping orthons and the like worked in about 90% of the cases, without using a vertigo weapon to enhance the DC and without insane amounts of str like that barbarian screenshot (18 base str, 5 lvl ups, +2 tome, +6 item, power surge, no other buffs needed). the main problem with imp trip is the 13 int you need.
another nice thing about trip is that it works against all undead (except ghosts) and constructs.

[Djeserit]

I ran with a stunning blow specc'd kensai dwarf the other night in Prey and it was...stunning!

I think this feat has always been underrated, finally coming into its own.

My two ideas to add are

* cloak of curses

* fearsome armor

If the mobs hit the curse, they get -4 to save. If they get shaken, that's a further -2. Unlikely high level mobs will get fear and actually run off.

Alternatively, have a friendly monk run around and hit everything with handwraps of greater cursespewing.

This will help overcome even the tough mobs on elite.

And then also if you are dual-wielding 5% weighted, it's sort of like dual wielding vorpal in between cooldowns.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Unlikely high level mobs will get fear and actually run off.


You'd be surprised...

Drop the frearsome idea, it will make you very unpopular in raid groups.

[Anneliese]

You'd be surprised...

Drop the frearsome idea, it will make you very unpopular in raid groups.

True, fearsome goes off even in high level areas. Only take it if you plan to stay out of melee, like a squishy caster.

[gillilandjoshua]

i am currently playing with one of these and he isa lv14 TR wf dual wielding 4% weightedand not much of the teink gear i want, I took 2 lvls of rogue for the regular easons and my dc is 40 currently. i can easily see 50 being a normal running around dc and mid to high 50's end game geared out. The weighted hammers make everyone that swings a wepon happy and ddis pretty good dps in itself(although would really love those khopeshes for damage the stuns really add to whole party dps. my thought if u build and twink it you will love it.

[shawnystyle7]

The only thing I can say is, check out Improved Trip. If your build allows it, like most kensai fighters, you ought to invest in that too (or, heck, just go with regular trip). Take the last six points you throw in dwarf tactics and spend it in improved trip III, and you'll have two extremely potent abilities. Just make sure you've got two feats to spare, because you need Combat Expertise and Int 13 to get Improved Trip.

I'm sure, though, that you're like most fighters I know with a couple of extra toughness feats that you took for the heck of it. When it comes down to it, Improved Trip (or just tripping stuff) is worth more than Stunning Blow at the end game due to the greater number of mobs weak to it and it's ability to remove a mob from the fight for up to a minute. Plus the fact that it's an opposed Str/Dex check to avoid and then a balance check to recover, rather than a fort save, which is generally good for you. If you're taking dwarf tactics, you might as well use it, and when it comes down to enhancement investment you can't go wrong unless your fighter is so twinked out its DPS makes SB and IT irrelevant.

Yes imp trip is good and worth taking we all know this. However a stun will always be more desired if it can land. I would generally prefer to run thru trash with a weighted in offhand and a crafted/high dps in mainhand. Not try to fit in vertigo+weighted or worry about switching sets every few seconds. So if im going to use one or the other and I can make either work, stun will be my first choice.

[Sinni]

Yes imp trip is good and worth taking we all know this. However a stun will always be more desired if it can land. I would generally prefer to run thru trash with a weighted in offhand and a crafted/high dps in mainhand. Not try to fit in vertigo+weighted or worry about switching sets every few seconds. So if im going to use one or the other and I can make either work, stun will be my first choice.

the point is, from my experience you don't need the vertigo weapon to make imp trip work well (with high str and some enhancments).
imo stun and trip (especially imp, as it works longer) have 2 different uses: stun is to kill a mob fast, trip is to take a mob out of battle/prevent it from hitting you.

[SouCarioca]

the point is, from my experience you don't need the vertigo weapon to make imp trip work well (with high str and some enhancments).
imo stun and trip (especially imp, as it works longer) have 2 different uses: stun is to kill a mob fast, trip is to take a mob out of battle/prevent it from hitting you.

My build is around dual-wielded Dwarven Axes, which means no Weighted edge. Vertigo in axes is common on the other hand. That said, I didn't understand the practical difference you delineated. If I stun an opponent, he is unable to fight back for the duration of the stun and I can thus kill him easier. If I trip with Imp. Trip, then the opponent is on the ground for that period, and just as in SB, I can kill him while he is helpless. Why would stunning make them easier to kill than Improved Trip?

[Visty]

My build is around dual-wielded Dwarven Axes, which means no Weighted edge. Vertigo in axes is common on the other hand. That said, I didn't understand the practical difference you delineated. If I stun an opponent, he is unable to fight back for the duration of the stun and I can thus kill him easier. If I trip with Imp. Trip, then the opponent is on the ground for that period, and just as in SB, I can kill him while he is helpless. Why would stunning make them easier to kill than Improved Trip?

cause if you stun a mob, you get auto crits against it

[Emili]

A +12 strength for a fighter is pretty low actually when you factor in power surge and the rage spell. Really what you post is closer to a 46 and 47 with rage which is very solid.
I think he's looking at it as 34 str (+12 mod) is a pure fighter in basic gear at rest, non human, no exceptional str, no boost, non buffed, etc... the typical pure is running around in combat buffed and boosted like you state and under prefect conditions arround 50-56.

[SouCarioca]

cause if you stun a mob, you get auto crits against it

Ah yes, this is a good point. Still, I will try the Imp Trip method instead. The fact that I can use Vertigo in conjunction with the Daxes is a plus, since I will have several enhancements specifically geared toward Dwarven Axes, not Warhammers (for example) so if the Trip/Stun misses, I still have the maximum melee power to continue the fight.

[sephiroth1084]

Bear in mind that maxxing out all the enhancements is expensive.

That said, the biggest difference between this and FOD is the cost. A missed Stun is not a big deal, and you'll still be swinging whatever the result. Just a miss and hit in FOD can will cost you 100 SP (heightened), more if you need to soften them up with another spell first.and that will weigh far more in the mage's equation.

.
Woah! What are you doing to your Finger of Death that is making it cost 100 SP?! 9th level spells only cost 50 SP, so at most, with just Heighten on, FoD can only cost 50 SP.

[SouCarioca]

Woah! What are you doing to your Finger of Death that is making it cost 100 SP?! 9th level spells only cost 50 SP, so at most, with just Heighten on, FoD can only cost 50 SP.

You missed the part where I said a miss and a hit, thus two casts.

[sephiroth1084]

You missed the part where I said a miss and a hit, thus two casts.
True. My bad.

[WeaselKing]

I am able to stun orthons and devils pretty reliable on my ~60 str barb with a 5% maul and maybe 1 tier of WF tactics. So about a 36 DC.

[Sinni]

My build is around dual-wielded Dwarven Axes, which means no Weighted edge. Vertigo in axes is common on the other hand. That said, I didn't understand the practical difference you delineated. If I stun an opponent, he is unable to fight back for the duration of the stun and I can thus kill him easier. If I trip with Imp. Trip, then the opponent is on the ground for that period, and just as in SB, I can kill him while he is helpless. Why would stunning make them easier to kill than Improved Trip?

one thing was already pointed out: stun grants auto crits, thus a mob can be killed faster. on the other hand stun only lasts 6 seconds, where as imp trip can last up to a minute (every few seconds the mob can make a balance check to get up). in the case where you have several mobs, you can stun one and deal a lot of damage in those 6 seconds. or you can use imp trip on one (preferably casters, as they will likely stay put longer) and deal with the others in the meantime.

[shawnystyle7]

I think he's looking at it as 34 str (+12 mod) is a pure fighter in basic gear at rest, non human, no exceptional str, no boost, non buffed, etc... the typical pure is running around in combat buffed and boosted like you state and under prefect conditions arround 50-56.


Yes I was just going off a base unbuffed str mod to DC. Basically from all of the feedback I've heard, so long as you are using a weighted and thus blunt weapon it isnt difficult to stun high end trash. Good to know guys as I was thinking of rolling up a dwarf twf warhammer pure kensai.

[Vengenance]

Strength: 18 Base +5 Level + 3 tome +6 Item +3 Exceptional +3 Ftr Str III=38 (+14 DC)
Enhancements: Dwarven Tactics III=+3 DC
Ftr. Stunning Blow IV: +4 DC
Kensai III: +3 DC
Weighted 5% Item: +10 DC

So adding this all up you can achieve:
Stunning blow = 10 base +10 weighted weapon +3 dwarven tactics +4 fighter stunning blow + 14 str +3 Kensai III=44 w/weighted item

Add in +1 for rage and another 4 for power surge and you end up with a 49 DC Stunning Blow, and if timed correctly when TWF the monster you attack has to make two saves, which means you pretty much have a no-fail stunning blow at end game on all mobs capable of being stunned.

Trip DCs are pretty close to the same or a little higher if you have improved trip. I usually run around with a vertigo 10 khopesh in one hand and a weighted 5% warhammer in the other hand.

These DCs are the same for WF or Dwarfs since they both have racial tactics enhancement line. By re-incarnating you can gain a couple more DC and double madstoned for a couple more.

[SouCarioca]

Strength: 18 Base +5 Level + 3 tome +6 Item +3 Exceptional +3 Ftr Str III=38 (+14 DC)
Enhancements: Dwarven Tactics III=+3 DC
Ftr. Stunning Blow IV: +4 DC
Kensai III: +3 DC
Weighted 5% Item: +10 DC

So adding this all up you can achieve:
Stunning blow = 10 base +10 weighted weapon +3 dwarven tactics +4 fighter stunning blow + 14 str +3 Kensai III=44 w/weighted item

Add in +1 for rage and another 4 for power surge and you end up with a 49 DC Stunning Blow, and if timed correctly when TWF the monster you attack has to make two saves, which means you pretty much have a no-fail stunning blow at end game on all mobs capable of being stunned.

Trip DCs are pretty close to the same or a little higher if you have improved trip. I usually run around with a vertigo 10 khopesh in one hand and a weighted 5% warhammer in the other hand.

These DCs are the same for WF or Dwarfs since they both have racial tactics enhancement line. By re-incarnating you can gain a couple more DC and double madstoned for a couple more.

It isn't that simple, unless you are really willing to put all your eggs in the Stunning Blow basket. Those enhancements you listed cost 22 points total (12 for Dwarf tactics and 10 for Fighter Stunning Blow IV), not including the Kensais. If you want maximum Improved Trip, than add a further 10 for the Fighter enhancements, which equates 32 enhancement points, or 40% of your allotted total. Even Fighter Strength III costs 12.

As to reincarnations, that is a power gamer argument with all due respect. I'm not saying your numbers are off, merely that for newer players, they aren't remotely realistic.

[Vengenance]

It isn't that simple, unless you are really willing to put all your eggs in the Stunning Blow basket. Those enhancements you listed cost 22 points total (12 for Dwarf tactics and 10 for Fighter Stunning Blow IV), not including the Kensais. If you want maximum Improved Trip, than add a further 10 for the Fighter enhancements, which equates 32 enhancement points, or 40% of your allotted total. Even Fighter Strength III costs 12.

As to reincarnations, that is a power gamer argument with all due respect. I'm not saying your numbers are off, merely that for newer players, they aren't remotely realistic.

The stunning blow numbers are very realistic and you do not need the Fighter enhancements for trip since Improved Trip already has a base 15 DC making the enhancement point investment un-necessary. Personally, I don't carry the final fighter enhancement for stunning blow, too much cost for too little gain, but everything else isn't a problem. Besides, I pretty much just posted the numbers to demonstrate what was possible, and to show that it is easy to achieve a 40+ DC to your stunning blow.

[TheDjinnFor]

one thing was already pointed out: stun grants auto crits, thus a mob can be killed faster. on the other hand stun only lasts 6 seconds, where as imp trip can last up to a minute (every few seconds the mob can make a balance check to get up). in the case where you have several mobs, you can stun one and deal a lot of damage in those 6 seconds. or you can use imp trip on one (preferably casters, as they will likely stay put longer) and deal with the others in the meantime.

Or you can trip one and stun the other; my favorite!

[Vengenance]

Or you can trip one and stun the other; my favorite!

Or you can SAP one, trip one, and then Stun the other; my favorite combo.

[metalworker]

Anyone care to share a build including stats/feat/enhancement progression for such a specced stunner?

I'm collecting heavy picks at the moment although I'm not sure what's the best weapon for stunning. I though heavy pick due to the x4 crit but I might be wrong.

[Ulf]

Anyone care to share a build including stats/feat/enhancement progression for such a specced stunner?

I'm collecting heavy picks at the moment although I'm not sure what's the best weapon for stunning. I though heavy pick due to the x4 crit but I might be wrong.

If you're specd for stunning, you'll be using weighted weapons (bludegon), so Hvy Pick is out. Warhammers will be your weapon of choice.

As for stats, you'll max out str fo improved DC
As for feats, standard kensai package and of course stunning blow, improv trip is good to have also since DC will be good
As for enhancements, full kensai, ftr str, ftr and racial tactics

As mentioned by others you should be able to get mid to upper 40s DC easily. That should work on most trash mobs norm-elite. To really have high sucess rate in epic lvl quests, you'll want to shoot for mid 50s.

[zed1]

It is important to note that a weighted warhammer will increase the DC of stunning blow on all swings. So, it is not necessary to carry two warhammers. In fact, if you want to go for a full crowd-control kind of build, you could carry a vertigo weapon in one hand and a weighted in the other.

Also, I would recommend taking the Quick Draw feat, so you can switch to your best DPS weapon set once the mob is stunned. Two picks with bursting effects would work well here. It usually not necessary to switch, but it is a nice option to have if you need to quickly take a mob down.

[Vengenance]

Anyone care to share a build including stats/feat/enhancement progression for such a specced stunner?

I'm collecting heavy picks at the moment although I'm not sure what's the best weapon for stunning. I though heavy pick due to the x4 crit but I might be wrong.

What works nice for me, since I don't use quickdraw, is to use a Weighted Warhammer in one hand (prefer one with bursting effect) and a vertigo heavy pick in the other hand (again prefer one with bursting effect) which generates some nice DPS on stuns (x3 Crit for Warhammer & x4 Crit for the heavy pick). This pretty much makes up your main weapon set against trash mobs.