Help me break it...

[Tallyn]

My current DM thinks both the Bard class and the Sorcerer class are underpowered. So for one of his characters in his game (not me), he's allowed them to be a Bard, with all the Bard skill points and features and class skills and spell list, but allowed them to use the Sorcerer spell progression and spells known and spell list as well. If spells are duplicated on either list, take the lower of the two. The only spells he's made restrictions on so far from the Sorcerer list are: no necromancy spells, no area affect evocation spells. I've cautioned him that I think this could reproduce an OVERLY powerful character, but in his opinion it hasn't so far, so he's not too concerned.

We're setting up a play test and I want to point out what may be imbalanced with this. I personally was thinking something along the lines of a battle bard, but wanted to get some extra thoughts here to see what other abuses of the above mentioned Bardic Sorc that my DM has created that I may be missing.

[Missing_Minds]

You are going to have so much fun with ray and orb spells given your buffed ablity to hit.

If you are allowed core splat books, and you want to melee, there is there feat that will convert an X level spell into additional Xd6 damage (melee, untyped) for the round (not singular attack) as I recall.

[SquelchHU]

Your DM knows what he is doing. There's no way in hell you're making a Bard, or even a Bard based Sorcerer overpowered since most of the good arcane spells are not bard like.

The worst you could do with it is a decent gish build, using spells like Greater Mirror Image so that enemies actually miss from time to time, using Arcane Strike for +x to hit/+xd4 damage where x is the level of the spell sacrificed, and using Snowflake Wardance + a properly optimized Inspire to get relatively high to hit numbers and large damage boosts, then Power Attacking away. I say decent because one allowed to pick any spells they want would be better, and it's still just HP damage.

[timberhick]

Your DM knows what he is doing. There's no way in hell you're making a Bard, or even a Bard based Sorcerer overpowered since most of the good arcane spells are not bard like.

The worst you could do with it is a decent gish build, using spells like Greater Mirror Image so that enemies actually miss from time to time, using Arcane Strike for +x to hit/+xd4 damage where x is the level of the spell sacrificed, and using Snowflake Wardance + a properly optimized Inspire to get relatively high to hit numbers and large damage boosts, then Power Attacking away. I say decent because one allowed to pick any spells they want would be better, and it's still just HP damage.

Funny. You have no real concept on how to actually play the game do ya.

Sure wizzies get the benefit of picking their spells daily, however, bards do not need half the spells a wizzie would need to make himself better, it's already built into their class.

[SquelchHU]

Funny. You have no real concept on how to actually play the game do ya.

Sure wizzies get the benefit of picking their spells daily, however, bards do not need half the spells a wizzie would need to make himself better, it's already built into their class.

Are you just going to follow me around, lie, and troll me now?

[GramercyRiff]

Bards and Sorcerers are indeed underpowered compared to CoDzilla and Wizards, but they are certainly not underpowered relative to other classes.

The caveats the DM uses are laughable. Conjuration and Transmutation are, of course, the powerhouse schools. Area evocations are some of the worst spells in the game. It's pointless to optimize burst casting damage when you can drop a controlling, debuffing, or buffing spell. A well placed Solid Fog, Heightened Sculpted Grease/Glitterdust, or Wall of Stone is far better than any one shot damaging spell. Let the melee deal the damage; or rather enable them to deal the damage with impunity.

Take feats that boost Inspire Courage. Stuff like Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration, etc. You'll probably want Rapid Metamagic so you can use metamagic feats at higher level.

This type of character will be quite powerful. With a high Cha, broken in half spells like the Planar Binding series can get you an army of outsiders. Fascinate and Suggestion can make this laughably easy. Nothing can withstand the Bard's Fascinate, the save is way too high. Since Suggestion doesn't count against the bard's daily song allotment, just keep using suggestion (suggesting that the creature agree to the pact) until the creature fails the save. You can bind Pit Fiends like this with ease. Just remember to fortify the magic circle against evil.:D EDIT: Since you have UMD you can use a wand of enervation to debuff the creature ensuring failed saves and successful spell pen checks.

Now that this Bard/Sorcerer has an army of Pit Fiends it's time to use that beefed up Inspire Courage on them...

Break the game beyond repair when you Planar Bind an Efreeti. Seriously...don't do this lol.

A PrC to look into is the War Weaver. You lose a caster level, but what you get more than makes up for it. It allows mass buffs that are normally single target buffs like Displacement, Stoneskin, Fly etc. As a Sorcerer you can seriously abuse this with Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion, and Celerity to drop around 15 buffs on your ENTIRE party in one round. Inspire Courage on top of this and it starts to become unfair quickly.

The Sorcerer list also has the broken in half Celerity spells. With Moment of Prescience up 24/7, you're never flat footed so can interrupt anything with a Time Stop/I Win. While this is obviously powerful, you're getting Bard skills/skill points, Bard BaB, Bard HP's and saves, no ASF in light armor (assuming this feature is retained), not to mention the other great class features of the Bard. It's hard for me to see how this isn't overpowered.

It should also be noted that Bards can already get Sorcerer spells by going Sublime Chord PrC, but they have to wait 10 levels to get in.

[timberhick]

Are you just going to follow me around, lie, and troll me now?

Prove where I lied.

[SquelchHU]

Prove where I lied.

I could link to every post you ever made in response to me and break down exactly how and why you are a serial liar, but I'd rather you stop following me around like an abused puppy because you lost your precious little argument, derailing other threads in the process.

[timberhick]

I could link to every post you ever made in response to me and break down exactly how and why you are a serial liar, but I'd rather you stop following me around like an abused puppy because you lost your precious little argument, derailing other threads in the process.

Ahh...you're going to be one of those.

You're going to come in here tell everyone they are playing wrong and not back up any of your claims, but we are supposed to take you at your word.