Jack of All Trades and the Master Assassin

[Grintor]

Hello all,

I have been pondering on how to create a rogue that can be competitent in dealing damage, or rather taking out specific targets, while Still being capable of taking care of traps and locks with ease, along with supporting via UMD. The only problem is that damage and trap monkeys don't seem to find level ground with one-another. I'm sure there's a way to do plenty of damage while still retaining the ability to do most, if not all traps. Then again, my understanding of a rogue could be outdated. SO lets get down to business:

***Please note****
I am no expert, though from what I've read and understand, I am trying to resolve issues that most rogues deal with at some point in their career. I expect to be wrong on the methods of achieving my goals, and hope that experienced players will give me their insight so that this build can evolve over time. My only wish is to help design a rogue that can deal with their drawbacks.


_-_________________________________

Goals:

- Above-Average damage
- Great support(Traps, UMD)
- Find loophole to will-save curse

_--________________________________

Method to meet Goals:


-Way of the Assassin
-High Int + Cha
-Force of Personality + Gear

_---________________________________
Race: Drow
Alingnment: undecided


Ability (28)
Key:'t'= Tome, 'i' = item, 'b' = Buff, 'e'= Enhancement, 'L' = level

Str (12]: {+2t, +6i } = 20
Dex(16]: { +5L, +6i, +5e} = 36
Con(12]: { +6i } = 18
Int (16]: { +6i } = 24
Wis ( 8]: { --- } = --
Cha (16]: { +6i } = 24


***


Reasons:
As I am going a more dex-based rogue, I stuck to only 12 str to save more points for other stats, using Bull's Strength will do me just fine until a tome/iteams are available. Dex would have been my choice to max, but instead I though I could use those points elsewhere, seeing as there are plenty of ways to augment abilities anyways. Con is a tough choice to allow it to sit at '12', but I hope to not be a damage soaking meat shield, that and I'm a elf, so -2 con makes it more costly in points; Augment by previous methods. Charisma is the last key to success for this would-be build, as I plan to have force of Personality as my first feat, and augmenting this as high as possible for UMD and will-save.

_----________________________________

Skills:

Max: Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, UMD

Partial: Tumble(15), Jump(10)

preferance: Bluff, Balance, Haggle, Spot



Reason:

The staple skills of a rogue are Disable Device, search, and Open lock, and for most UMD. If nothing else, get those four max points possible. Move Silently and Hide will keep you out of trouble long enough to get yourself in to trouble without nsequences. Diplomacy is probably the best and worst skill to get when dealing with hate/aggro; Dumping hate is tricky deal depending on groups, if the tank doesn't have everything taken care of, it's likely I'll have explaining to the healer or casters why they just died. The partial points into jump allows for max jump via +30 buff, so there isn't much reason to put more points into it. +15 tumble is more preferance then needed, but it's good to have in some situations, and can be buffed be nearly as effective anyways. The rest is just personal preference when there's left over points or when the skills are up to the highest I'm getting them. I believe there are enough points to max one preference skill while leveling, and there should be plenty left at the last few levels if I want another one decent later on.



_-----_______________________________

Feats:

LvL| Feat

1: Force of Personality
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Two Weapon Fighting
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Improved Evasion
12: Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
13: Cripling Strike
15: Greater Two weapon Fighting
16: Slippery Mind
18: Power Attack(OR: Iron will, SF: UMD/DD)
19: Skill Mastery(OR: Defensive Roll)

Reasons:

Seeing as rogues and their to-hit is somewhat low at the beginning, two weapon fighting is less appealing to me than just sword + Board until later; Granted my damage will be less, but I'll be missing far less until six; I am still thinking I might flip FoP & TWF places. Once six I'm getting TWF, and at '9' and '15' get the upgrades to them. '12' will be a happy level for Improved Criticals. Then finally we have the debates on what to get for the last levels. I personally lean towards power attack for more damage, but Iron will would increase the dreaded Will save which could be negligable at higher levels with gear, or Skill Focus to make getting traps easier or helping UMD get a nice healthy boost.



_-----_______________________________

Enhancements:

-will complete later-

_------______________________________

Gear:

-will complete later-
_-------_____________________________




Update: Possibly switching to 19r/1f or 18r/2p. I'll update once I've made a decision and/or have time.

[Rav'n]

12 Rogue 8 Fighter... or if you want Assasin III then go 18/2

My Favorite NON Bard character is Drow 12/8 w/Acrobat II. Plenty of Feats Imune to Knock down, Radience II Blinds them and then you get Max Sneak damage on every hit.

[leviathan]

Can't take weapon finess at level 1 rogue

[Grintor]

thanks for catching that, had the feat in the wrong place >.>;



Also Rav'n, I'd like to stay pure rogue if possible, though I will take into consideration a splash of fighter for extra feats, or paladin for more will save. Though for now I'd like to see if I have the base abilities and other key elements down fine.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'd drop the int by 2 and increase the con by 2. This will help your survivability.


>From my understanding, rogues aren't full-blown damage dealers so I decided to stop at '12'.

Absolutely not true. Except against high fort mobs and undead they do MASSIVE damage. In addition, a L18 AssIII rogue can vorpal with non vorpal weapons (yes, they can vorpal you with a club if they want) and can level drain you using the Ass set out of the Shav raid.

L19 rogue adds to your sneak attack over L18, so my recommendation for you would be L19 rogue, 1 ftr (the 1 ftr giving you a feat and the extra weapons/shield selection)

>Skills: Max: Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, UMD

Yes, good choices

> Partial: Tumble(15), Jump(10)

You only need 1pt in tumble for most uses.

>preferance: Bluff, Balance, Haggle, Spot

Bluff is useless. Spot is must have, balance and haggle are handy.

>Feats:

Good choices

[Therigar]

Lorien's advice is just about spot on.

The bit about INT vs CON is a bit of a wash. INT helps with search and disable and also with Assassin II -- along with giving more skill points at each level. CON gives more HP. A 2 point difference in base stat for 20 additional HP may not be as valuable as +1 to search and disable along with +1 DC for Assassin II and +1 skill point per level.

It really depends on if you absolutely HAVE to get every trap at all game settings. If you can live with not getting one or two of them then you can easily dump a bit of INT. Picking up additional CON makes sense.

Another thing to consider is what you are doing for AC. You have planned a very high DEX and will easily max the DEX bonus for any armor you find. So, do you really need that much DEX? Maybe you do, maybe you don't. You increase damage if you go with STR as your primary attribute rather than DEX. And DEX does not affect search or disable -- although it does impact hide/move silently and unlock.

Ultimately it is a matter of choice. DEX builds have been popular and seem especially so at present.

The 19/1 split is certainly best.

[Grintor]

Thanks Lorien,

On the note of rogues doing massive damage, I have no doubts they can be extremely competent damage dealers, though they are more situational and require some finesse on the player's end to do it just right. I never meant to say that rogue are incapable of doing amazing damage, though I meant it as they are no barbarian. On the note of Tumble, I'd like to play with tumble a bit, as I've never put enough points into it to get the acrobatics, and I'd thought I might as well try it sometime; I'm not sure how high to place it though as I'm unsure what the specific amount would be needed to make it capable to do flips with buffs/items, etc. Also, drow would need 4 points more to get to 14, sadly. So I'll probably hope for a +2 tome after I get the +2 strength tome.


Fighter was probably my second choice for possible splashing, first being Paladin splash of two, because Divine grace stacks with Force of Personality it seems. An extra feat would come in handy, but I think paladin would give me more benefit; but I could be wrong. The fighter splash however lets me keep the 19 rogue for the extra sneak attack; so it's somewhat a toss-up between more survivability or more damage.


Edit: Therigar,

I think you're right on the dex; I'll probably move to strength to help with the damage output and let my enhancements and gear build up my dex. How does a +4 str/+1 con sound if I move to 13 con so that it becomes even later on? I'd detract from int probably then use a tome later when I can.

stats would look like this:

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 13
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 16


Edit 2:

I've been thinking though a splash of two would drop a rogue specific feat and I would lose out on an extra sneak attack bonus, I would gain much higher will save and have some interesting enhancement selections to choose from. Follower of Vulkoor would give a +1 bonus to hits, which can also stack with Drow's melee attack, which gives +2 or +3 total to-hit. Also, having an +1 to charisma enhancement would allow me to use one of my level points into charisma of an even score, and with item could gain up to +24 charisma; granted I'd rather stick to more damage output, but there are a few more possibilities that may make 18r/2p fairly nice build for a rogue looking to have more survivability. Also Lay on Hands is also an nice bonus for a quick heal. Overall, I'm thinking of taking 2 paladin for this build, any thoughts?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just a coment because of something you said about Rogue damage.

If it can be SAed, a Rogue can put out some serious, serious DPS.

And not just from one attack.

You just have to make sure you do not have agro.
And if you get agro, a decent Diplomacy score, or a few other tricks can get rid of it quickly.

So.....Rogues may be weak against creatures that cannot be SAed. But there are very few chars who can out DPS a rogue who can get SA damage often.

Also, if the Rogue is handling the agro like he should (since he depends on NOT having agro), then the Rogue's HP and AC become less important.

And trap skills:
Few dungeons require maximum trap skills currently. (of course that may change)

[Grintor]

I'll clear my statement a bit in the first post, though I'll also explain myself a little more clearly; I understand that rogue are fully capable of amazing damage, but they are not the main DPS of a group. By all means, this doesn't mean somebody can't make a rogue that can do just that, but when it comes to my personal view of a rogue is not the main damage dealer, like say a Barbarian, which has enough hitpoints to allow him to just rush in. I never meant to denounce rogues as weak in the DPS department; Sorry for the confusion.

So other then the fact that my opinion on rogue as a DPS class, I'd like to have anyone's input on their stance on Paladin Rogues and if the bonuses from 18r/2p outweigh the perks from the 19r/1f. From what I've seen, Drow rogue paladin would have much more survivability, and fighter give an extra feat and more weapon choices. I honestly seem to be leaning towards paladin myself. Not sure which to go though.

[Therigar]

I am curious on why you have planned such a high CHA. It isn't necessary for UMD. In fact, unless you are planning on using your rogue as a hagglebot a high CHA isn't necessary at all. IMO it is a complete waste of build points.

With Drow you start at base 10 CHA. You are putting 6 build points here that could be boosting STR or CON. Unless you hang around with incompetents you won't need to worry about generating hate with your attacks. Take the Subtle Backstabbing enhancements to reduce the hate generated by your attacks. Diplomacy will be high enough even with a 10 CHA to shed most monsters when they do aggro on you (assuming you are putting points into Diplomacy).

I would start with STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 10. You gain +5 to DEX via enhancements. You gain +5 to STR via stat increases. Using +1 tomes in both makes them even numbers. A DEX of 26 w enhancements, tome and +6 item is +8 to AC which is more than adequate. A STR of 28 w stat increases, tome and +6 item is a respectable STR.

If I was going to plan on using tomes extensively (and why not as they are available in the DDO store) I might even plan on 17 13 13 13 9 10 as my starting stats. Use +1 tomes at L3 for INT, CON and WIS. Use +2 tomes at L7 for STR and DEX. This gives a DEX of 26 as before and a STR of 30 (17+5+2+6=30). By comparison, a fighter with a starting STR of 18 ends on 34 while a barbarian ends on 31.

Naturally a barbarian will boost STR with rage but you can do pretty much the same with rage potions, Madstone boots or a helpful bard or wizard nearby. So, from a pure STR standpoint you can rival any of the warrior types in the group. If you take 2 levels of fighter you will also get a +1 STR enhancement. If you get a +3 tome along the way you can then get to 32 STR.

If going STR based this is what I would do. Of course, that may not fit into your concept.

Edit: Note that I initially said 19/1 was the right level breakdown. However, in discussing STR based rogues I would balance the +11 damage per hit against the +3.5 damage from the extra d6 backstabbing produces. IMO the 3.5 damage is no longer as significant and justifies going with an 18/2 split IF the splash is in the fighter class. If the splash is in another class then 19/1 with the +10 damage AND the 3.5 backstab bonus would be the way to go. It may still be the better option if virtually every attack qualifies as a backstab.