Why ar e monks treated so poorly by the devs?

[NXPlasmid]

The devout handwraps -low drop rate in a quest that requires running 4 long and tedious quests, to get there. AND requires reflagging EVERY TIME. I've only seen 2 LFMs for this quest since Update 1....

The rings -great stuff! drops in the highest raid which most groups won't take more than one monk into, if they let you in at all.

Devs could you please not make all the essential monk items in these kinds of difficult places.

[Arkat]

/agree on the Devout Handwraps placement issue

/disagree on the Ring placement issue

[Angelus_dead]

The devout handwraps -low drop rate in a quest that requires running 4 long and tedious quests, to get there. AND requires reflagging EVERY TIME
Are you really sure you need to reflag?

Anyway, that's an interesting point. Those handwraps were originally supposed to be in Wrath of the Flame, a level 19 quest which is tremendously easier than Shadow Crypt. (Presumably that version had a higher plus as well). When they were instead placed in a lower-level quest, the devs though that would be helpful for players, as it would mean monks could start using Devout Handwraps before getting into Shroud.

But of course, Wrath of the Flame is easier than some level 11 and 15 quests, so moving items out if it isn't actually a buff...

[Aerendil]

Yeah, agreed on the Devout Handwraps issue. It's not so much a matter of the quest itself that irks me, it's just the mechanics of reflagging. Necropolis III's final tomb is permanently unlocked once you do the pre-flagging, so why aren't I and II's like this as well? Very annoying. And yes, especially as the handwraps only have a *chance* at appearing in the final chest, it's incredibly frustrating to have to repeat the entire thing over, and over, and over again.

All in all, some of the Monk loot seems HORRIBLY done. The drop rates are abysmal (The Captives was run by myself over 40 times, *literally*, on various difficulties, and never once saw those named +2 sonic handwraps), the MLs seem way off on some wraps (I've pulled +1 metalline handwraps that were ML10 - why?? All other +1 metalline weapons in game are ML6!), and so on.

As for the rings, their placement seems key. It's just that Monks aren't viewed as useful at endgame. Or at least, they weren't previously. Things seem to be slowly changing now with metalline of pure good, 2d20 ki strikes, etc.

[Aesop]

Are you really sure you need to reflag?

Anyway, that's an interesting point. Those handwraps were originally supposed to be in Wrath of the Flame, a level 19 quest which is tremendously easier than Shadow Crypt. (Presumably that version had a higher plus as well). When they were instead placed in a lower-level quest, the devs though that would be helpful for players, as it would mean monks could start using Devout Handwraps before getting into Shroud.

But of course, Wrath of the Flame is easier than some level 11 and 15 quests, so moving items out if it isn't actually a buff...

maybe I'm being unkind ... but it seems to me that placing them in Shadow Crypt is more Finanically motivated... I mean no one really likes the Adventure Pack that includes Shadow Crypt so they needed reasons for people to run those quests and buy the Pack I'd suppose

but that's just my cynical side talking

:D

Aesop

[Aerendil]

FYI, my bigger gripes are getting weighted to work properly with stunning fist; ensuring CE doesn't turn off every time we use a finisher; fixing stances to provide more use out of some (i.e. earth and water especially, but fire as well); boosting our finishing moves further; adding weapon ki feat ingame; etc, etc.

[Aerendil]

maybe I'm being unkind ... but it seems to me that placing them in Shadow Crypt is more Finanically motivated... I mean no one really likes the Adventure Pack that includes Shadow Crypt so they needed reasons for people to run those quests and buy the Pack I'd suppose

but that's just my cynical side talking

:D

Aesop

No, I thought that as well ;)

[ahpook]

There are 3 big problems with the Devout Handwraps.

My level 20 Monk is thinking of running low level (level 8) content to get them. Should level 8 gear be the only reliable way to get a needed effect even for level 20's?
He is not going to run to get them because of the quest they are in and the quests you need to do to reflag to get them are too great of PitA. Without reflagging it might be reasonable, but with reflagging it makes no sense when the only benefit is a slim chance at 1 piece of gear.
They are bound to character so I can't even run some level appropriate characters through to try and get some.

[rimble]

I absolutely agree.

No handwrap itemization. ToD rings come 5+ levels later than their somewhat counterparts, GS weapons. Now 100 versions of Dream Edge to search through for a useful one.

It's actually all kinda gotten to me. I'm on a break.

[NXPlasmid]

Are you really sure you need to reflag?


yep. I am perfectly willing to accept the reason for these things is that the devs didn't realize what they were doing when they put the devout handwraps in the shaddow crypt, or that for a monk to be effective in a raid like ToD they would need to have the rings that drop there. It's definitely ironic that essential monk gear drops in a raid that is very difficult for monks to get in without said gear...

As to the minimum level for metaline handwraps, that is somethink I hadn't really considered, why are they different than other metalline weapons?

[Junts]

There are 3 big problems with the Devout Handwraps.

My level 20 Monk is thinking of running low level (level 8) content to get them. Should level 8 gear be the only reliable way to get a needed effect even for level 20's?
He is not going to run to get them because of the quest they are in and the quests you need to do to reflag to get them are too great of PitA. Without reflagging it might be reasonable, but with reflagging it makes no sense when the only benefit is a slim chance at 1 piece of gear.
They are bound to character so I can't even run some level appropriate characters through to try and get some.


Its not; a holy burst tower ring and any metalline handwrap does the job just fine, there is no real reason to farm shadow crypt unless you can't handle tower of despair.

[Philam]

Where do the handwraps drop? And is there a link to them?

Thank you
Ph

[NXPlasmid]

Its not; a holy burst tower ring and any metalline handwrap does the job just fine, there is no real reason to farm shadow crypt unless you can't handle tower of despair.

Handle? Tchopstick can handle it quite easily. Are there a lot of PUGs for that raid?... no. Is it easy to get into a PUG group as a monk?... no. I've run it twice, been declined more times than I can remember... Also, metaline handwraps don't drop much.

Q: has anyone seen metalline of pure good handwraps drop anywhere other than as the devout handwraps in Shaddow Crypt?

[Junts]

Handle? Tchopstick can handle it quite easily. Are there a lot of PUGs for that raid?... no. Is it easy to get into a PUG group as a monk?... no. I've run it twice, been declined more times than I can remember... Also, metaline handwraps don't drop much.

If you have class-based end rewards set, you'll end up with a metalline set in pretty short order.

Its often hard to get pugs, period, for relatively new or challenging content soon after release; why don't you start your own, or run it with some friends? I'm sure you have some friends who are in some kind of guild that can handle the raid, you really can't get a regular spot with them?

The trophies are so common (and bound to account) and there are so many trash rings no one wants (3 of the 4 sorc rings, all the cleric rings, arcane archer, deepwood sniper, hunter of the dead, purple dragon knight, mechanic, at the very least, on top of any ring you might actually want) that its extremely easy to pick up a ring no one has any use for and put holy burst on it until you pull a better ring.


I haven't seen metalline of pure good personally, but it shouldn't be too hard to get; I'd farm sins of attrition for them, as its the fastest, lv 18+ quest that doesnt give short end reward lists (like all the inspired quarter, and wrath/shipment, do)

[Samadhi]

The trophies are so common..

Pfft maybe I'm too lucky with rings, then, but I have mostly ran this raid on hard and don't have remotely enough trophies. Also keep in mind that the only "non-ideal" ring I crafted was for my monk, too, so I didn't waste a bunch either.


The ML thing is getting at the real issue though. Why have I not even SEEN a +5 metalline of PG? That's garbage that the devs would deliberately descriminate to monks like that; which is the way it appears from what I have witnessed.

[NXPlasmid]

If you have class-based end rewards set, you'll end up with a metalline set in pretty short order.

Its often hard to get pugs, period, for relatively new or challenging content soon after release; why don't you start your own, or run it with some friends? I'm sure you have some friends who are in some kind of guild that can handle the raid, you really can't get a regular spot with them?

The trophies are so common (and bound to account) and there are so many trash rings no one wants (3 of the 4 sorc rings, all the cleric rings, arcane archer, deepwood sniper, hunter of the dead, purple dragon knight, mechanic, at the very least, on top of any ring you might actually want) that its extremely easy to pick up a ring no one has any use for and put holy burst on it until you pull a better ring.

I have metalline handwraps. I'm not in any "real"* guilds. I don't ask guildies from other guilds to include me in guild raid runs, let alone a regular spot. You are making a lot of assumptions... sorry none of them really apply to me.



*by real, I mean organized raiding large guilds, such as (on Khyber) Elite Raiders, Free companions, Ransack, Loreseekers, etc...

[Junts]

Pfft maybe I'm too lucky with rings, then, but I have mostly ran this raid on hard and don't have remotely enough trophies. Also keep in mind that the only "non-ideal" ring I crafted was for my monk, too, so I didn't waste a bunch either.


The ML thing is getting at the real issue though. Why have I not even SEEN a +5 metalline of PG? That's garbage that the devs would deliberately descriminate to monks like that; which is the way it appears from what I have witnessed.

How many rings have you made? I've made 4 on my monk, 1 on my sorc, 1 on my new pally, and i have over 30 trophies in my shared bank right now.

I guess I'm surprised, NX, that none of your friendly guilds has a private user channel that you might belong to to learn whats going on.

[Aerendil]

I haven't seen metalline of pure good personally, but it shouldn't be too hard to get; I'd farm sins of attrition for them, as its the fastest, lv 18+ quest that doesnt give short end reward lists (like all the inspired quarter, and wrath/shipment, do)

Call me crazy, but I don't feel we should have to farm lvl 18+ quests just to get a metalline of pure good weapon dropping.
My bard alt has a metalline of pure good rapier and I think it's ML 8ish, if memory serves.

The other argument could be made that only metalline is required, as a ring with holy blast on it should also work on bypassing DR. But again, it's requiring Monks to farm lvl 18+ content just to bypass DR.

The other option is to farm this silly Necropolis II end-quest over and over again until the devout wraps drop.

[Anneliese]

The following should work for flagging issues:

#1 Flag secondary char for the quest

#2 enter quest with a guildie or a second ftp account

#3 log to original char, do quest

#4 repeat #2-#3 until you got the wraps

[ahpook]

Its not; a holy burst tower ring and any metalline handwrap does the job just fine, there is no real reason to farm shadow crypt unless you can't handle tower of despair.

While that is true there is a catch 22 in that pugs are much more willing to take a monk into ToD when that monk can provide good DPS against the bosses. Which requires the Devout Handwraps or the ring from the raid you haven't yet been able to run or a random and rare drop. I'll stand by the "only reliable way" part of my comment.

[NXPlasmid]

How many rings have you made? I've made 4 on my monk, 1 on my sorc, 1 on my new pally, and i have over 30 trophies in my shared bank right now.

I guess I'm surprised, NX, that none of your friendly guilds has a private user channel that you might belong to to learn whats going on.

let me guess, you are in a guild that runs ToD regularly...

[Cyr]

Hold on I run with plenty of monks that do fairly good dps. Then again they don't hit things unless they have the items to make that actually useful. Most of them use GS weapons just like everyone else does. Now is it lame that there are no GS handwraps heck yeah. Is it lame how they have placed named hand wraps, heck yeah (but no more lame then icy was in ghosts). And TOD does get run regularly on Sarlona, it's just that most runs are mostly guild runs with a few spots on an as need basis open. Since those needed spots tend to be healer/arcane/bard/boot toon; melee without boots get's the shaft sometimes. If you have the boots then tell people before joining and they might let you in when they might have not before.

[Junts]

let me guess, you are in a guild that runs ToD regularly...

Actually, not a member, but a member of a user channel related to a guild that runs tower regularly, many of which I start myself and possibly pug a few slots of depending on how many channel users are interested.

At least on Ghallanda, most guilds have a private channel that friends and allies can use to get into groups with them and know whats going on; even if you're not a member of any of the guilds you mentioned, are you really not friendly with any of them enough to get into their private UC? I know Khyber has them, because you can see them in Khyber raider's screenshots. If you refuse to associate with people who do run endgame content regularly (and in my experience, any good and friendly player is usually welcome to run with those kind of players), you get to wait on tower just like a lot of people waited 2-3 months before they had regular access to the Shroud. The onus is on you to start your own pug, involve yousrelf with people who run, or, for that matter, start your own and learn how. If you do none of those, you lose the right to complain, as you're not doing anything to help yourself.

So far I have 18 + 11 + 12 + 6 completions of the raid on my characters, so I suppose I do run it pretty often, but I won't even be within a week of the first to 20 groups. In any case, there are plenty of monks who have jumped in with us for a run or 3, and been transferred trophies people didn't need and picked up some radiant ring or something similar that no one really wanted and got themselves holy burst. I don't think that kind of thing is unrealistic.

[NXPlasmid]

Hold on I run with plenty of monks that do fairly good dps. Then again they don't hit things unless they have the items to make that actually useful. Most of them use GS weapons just like everyone else does. Now is it lame that there are no GS handwraps heck yeah. Is it lame how they have placed named hand wraps, heck yeah (but no more lame then icy was in ghosts). And TOD does get run regularly on Sarlona, it's just that most runs are mostly guild runs with a few spots on an as need basis open. Since those needed spots tend to be healer/arcane/bard/boot toon; melee without boots get's the shaft sometimes. If you have the boots then tell people before joining and they might let you in when they might have not before.

First of all, I am not gonna grind the shroud to make min2 GS kamas, my monk uses handwraps, kamas are terrible. Second, my monks do fine dps and are well equiped. Third, Icey rainments is not a good example. No build is dependant on those extra couple of points of AC to be effective and there are LOTS of ways to skin that cat with other robes and items.


Actually, not a member, but a member of a user channel related to a guild that runs tower regularly, many of which I start myself and possibly pug a few slots of depending on how many channel users are interested.

At least on Ghallanda, most guilds have a private channel that friends and allies can use to get into groups with them and know whats going on; even if you're not a member of any of the guilds you mentioned, are you really not friendly with any of them enough to get into their private UC? I know Khyber has them, because you can see them in Khyber raider's screenshots. If you refuse to associate with people who do run endgame content regularly (and in my experience, any good and friendly player is usually welcome to run with those kind of players), you get to wait on tower just like a lot of people waited 2-3 months before they had regular access to the Shroud. The onus is on you to start your own pug, involve yousrelf with people who run, or, for that matter, start your own and learn how. If you do none of those, you lose the right to complain, as you're not doing anything to help yourself.

So far I have 18 + 11 + 12 + 6 completions of the raid on my characters, so I suppose I do run it pretty often, but I won't even be within a week of the first to 20 groups. In any case, there are plenty of monks who have jumped in with us for a run or 3, and been transferred trophies people didn't need and picked up some radiant ring or something similar that no one really wanted and got themselves holy burst. I don't think that kind of thing is unrealistic.

again, I believe you are assuming that your game experience is applicable as a universal experience, there is an inherent flaw in that type of assumption.

*edit* really up until this last mod, I haven't needed to worry about guild raids, I could easily get whatever raid, be it ToD, hound, shroud, titan, simply via PUGing and to be honest, I still don't run VoD all that much with any of my toons and it sucks to have gear that makes my lvl20 monk competitive with a lvl16 fighter only available in a raid that is mostly available to people in guilds. Noone has offered to put me on any special chat lists and I haven't asked, nor do I intend on doing so.

[oberon131313]

again, I believe you are assuming that your game experience is applicable as a universal experience, there is an inherent flaw in that type of assumption.

the question becomes then, if you currently don't have that experience, why not work towards creating it?

[Latharna]

I'm surprised people aren't yet used to getting the shaft. How many runs through WaterWorks did it take before you got the Black Widow Bracers?

After getting screwed 8 runs in a row, I gave up, hit level 7, and settled for generic +3 Armor bracers for the off chance that I use up all 10 Mage Armor charges on assorted buff-gear before resting.

[NXPlasmid]

the question becomes then, if you currently don't have that experience, why not work towards creating it?

well, my answer is the simple question, why? I have to change how I play, just to get basic monk equipment? I can play any other class and not have to. It's just a lack of balance in the monk design, which is also ironic.

[Junts]

well, my answer is the simple question, why? I have to change how I play, just to get basic monk equipment? I can play any other class and not have to. It's just a lack of balance in the monk design, which is also ironic.

Has it occured to you that having a monk with dps similar to a fighter is a tremendous advantage to the monk, as it gets tons of other benefits (immunities, improved evasion, etc) that the fighter doesn't?

But you can have such a character: however, no one has ever created characters on the cutting edge of DDO effectiveness without grouping with like-minded players, and that's what's required for the next little while in order to do that with a monk.

the difference between min2 kamas and metalline handwraps with a holy burst ring isn't small; its as big as the difference between many sword and board and twf dps builds: the handwraps can be more than 50% ahead.

If you want a monk that can do that (and all you need is power attack, appropriate gear and 18-20 monk levels in order to do it), then you need to play the game that way.


You choose not to, so, guess what .. you're not getting to. That's -your choice-.

[NXPlasmid]

I'm surprised people aren't yet used to getting the shaft. How many runs through WaterWorks did it take before you got the Black Widow Bracers?

After getting screwed 8 runs in a row, I gave up, hit level 7, and settled for generic +3 Armor bracers for the off chance that I use up all 10 Mage Armor charges on assorted buff-gear before resting.

Well, I doesn't really matter all that much, you can get away without most of the "essential gear" for almost EVERYTHING, and run with what drops for you. I've never gotten the Icey's to drop, but I have gotten one bloodstone. Tchopstick got the Enlightened vestments on his first VoD run. For the most part it all balances, but for the shroud, and amarath content there is no way for a monk to get past the silver/good DR of the pit fiends without either the rings of ToD crafted with holy burst and metaline handwraps, or the devout handwraps. So in addition to the large population of uber AC no DPS monks, even more balanced builds are just behind almost any build with appropriate weapons. I think it's insane to make GS Kama's since the crit range is 20 with a x2 multi... I don't know about others but I dont have the feats to take IC bludgeon and IC slashing...

[oberon131313]

well, my answer is the simple question, why?

Are you really asking why you should start server chat channels to help you get TOD runs together? I'll give you a hint: Monks aren't the only ones that want to run TOD.

[Junts]

Well, I doesn't really matter all that much, you can get away without most of the "essential gear" for almost EVERYTHING, and run with what drops for you. I've never gotten the Icey's to drop, but I have gotten one bloodstone. Tchopstick got the Enlightened vestments on his first VoD run. For the most part it all balances, but for the shroud, and amarath content there is no way for a monk to get past the silver/good DR of the pit fiends without either the rings of ToD crafted with holy burst and metaline handwraps, or the devout handwraps. So in addition to the large population of uber AC no DPS monks, even more balanced builds are just behind almost any build with appropriate weapons. I think it's insane to make GS Kama's since the crit range is 20 with a x2 multi... I don't know about others but I dont have the feats to take IC bludgeon and IC slashing...

I no longer use my dual min2 kamas as anything but stoneskin clickies, but did you really forget that mineral2 items are keen and so there's no need to have ic: slash in order to use min2 kamas?

My Min2 kamas sit around pretty much just in case I never need them to beat dr/evil, but they weren't bad weapons when they were my best option, even if their dps is tremendously worse (280ish dps with the kamas, vs 380-400ish with the right handwraps).

its just not that hard to farm shadow crypt by opening with another toon and/or holding the window, but I'm gonna guess you aren't willing to do either of those.

[NXPlasmid]

Has it occured to you that having a monk with dps similar to a fighter is a tremendous advantage to the monk, as it gets tons of other benefits (immunities, improved evasion, etc) that the fighter doesn't?

But you can have such a character: however, no one has ever created characters on the cutting edge of DDO effectiveness without grouping with like-minded players, and that's what's required for the next little while in order to do that with a monk.

the difference between min2 kamas and metalline handwraps with a holy burst ring isn't small; its as big as the difference between many sword and board and twf dps builds: the handwraps can be more than 50% ahead.

If you want a monk that can do that (and all you need is power attack, appropriate gear and 18-20 monk levels in order to do it), then you need to play the game that way.


You choose not to, so, guess what .. you're not getting to. That's -your choice-.

Look, you're not missing my point, you are ignoring it, fine. You've got a way that works for you. Be all the monk you can be.

[Samadhi]

. For the most part it all balances, but for the shroud, and amarath content there is no way for a monk to get past the silver/good DR of the pit fiends without either the rings of ToD crafted with holy burst and metaline handwraps, or the devout handwraps. .

The above is incorrect. It should be possible for metalline of PG wraps to drop as part of normal loot. However, the current rarity suggests that either they are just being hoarded because it is early or, given the high ML someone mentioned earlier, are actually rarer than the equivalent on a rapier/dagger/etc. That is the real issue - these should be pretty common (and possibly will be eventually if it is just a hoarding issue).


And Junts, I really don't think having 47 total completions is anywhere remotely common. Just because there is a 0.01% of the population out there that has double that - does not mean that you still aren't in the top 1% for grinding that much that quick.

[Junts]

The above is incorrect. It should be possible for metalline of PG wraps to drop as part of normal loot. However, the current rarity suggests that either they are just being hoarded because it is early or, given the high ML someone mentioned earlier, are actually rarer than the equivalent on a rapier/dagger/etc. That is the real issue - these should be pretty common (and possibly will be eventually if it is just a hoarding issue).


And Junts, I really don't think having 47 total completions is anywhere remotely common. Just because there is a 0.01% of the population out there that has double that - does not mean that you still aren't in the top 1% for grinding that much that quick.


While I agree with you, I was thinking more along the lines of monks like Riggs, Goki or Brutalyzer who have run with us a handful of times and been able to get themselves a holy burst trash ring pretty easily.

Unless Khyber is just 5 times more isolationist than Ghallanda, it shouldn't be that hard for a solid player who isn't a jackass to get 4-5 completions and pick up some free trophies in 2 months.

[Angelus_dead]

Its not; a holy burst tower ring and any metalline handwrap does the job just fine, there is no real reason to farm shadow crypt unless you can't handle tower of despair.
Haha, what?

The reason you'd want that capability is to beat raids such as Tower of Despair. It's unhelpful to point to TOD loot as the tool you use for Shroud, VOD, and TOD. Once you have that loot, you're therefore past the point of really needing the capability.

[Junts]

Haha, what?

The reason you'd want that capability is to beat raids such as Tower of Despair. It's unhelpful to point to TOD loot as the tool you use for Shroud, VOD, and TOD.


Considering the hardest part of a tower run is pt 1 (at least on hard or elite) and one of the two mobs there takes full damage without silver, its just not that big a deal if you aren't breaking dr for a few runs.

[NXPlasmid]

Considering the hardest part of a tower run is pt 1 (at least on hard or elite) and one of the two mobs there takes full damage without silver, its just not that big a deal if you aren't breaking dr for a few runs.

well, that is interesting. I've run ToD a total of 5 times with 3 groups. 1 completion, 4 failures all in part 2 because the kiter died. Part 1 was quite doable.

[Junts]

well, that is interesting. I've run ToD a total of 5 times with 3 groups. 1 completion, 4 failures all in part 2 because the kiter died. Part 1 was quite doable.


Pt 1 scales much more drastically because of the trap damage; even without the bugged physical trap damage, being thrown into the traps on elite is usually a one shot kill, and they still do 150+ on hard when not bugged out .. much more resource intensive than pt 2, which may wipe, but usually doesn't cost a lot in doing so.

pt 2 wipes are mostly due to players needing to learn (or adjust to changes in) how to kite, the dps requirement isnt particularly high and its not a major pot spam fest.

[NXPlasmid]

Pt 1 scales much more drastically because of the trap damage; even without the bugged physical trap damage, being thrown into the traps on elite is usually a one shot kill, and they still do 150+ on hard when not bugged out .. much more resource intensive than pt 2, which may wipe, but usually doesn't cost a lot in doing so.

pt 2 wipes are mostly due to players needing to learn (or adjust to changes in) how to kite, the dps requirement isnt particularly high and its not a major pot spam fest.

Well that makes sense. while the rest of us pleb monks are just trying to get into any ToD run, you can only bother yourself with elite runs. Oh and by the way, virtually all of your assumptions about my efforts are completely wrong, for example, I have already run the Shaddow Crypt at least 10 times in the last week, in fact I am one of the few people putting up LFMs for it on Khyber, that I have observed.

[ApesAmongUs]

the question becomes then, if you currently don't have that experience, why not work towards creating it?
Maybe because the experience sounds particularly unpleasant?

[RobbinB]

If you have class-based end rewards set, you'll end up with a metalline set in pretty short order.


By short order, you don't mean a couple of weeks, since I run my monk nearly every night, have class rewards checked, and haven't seen metalline yet. Either I'm extremely unlucky or metalline is truly rare compared to other enhancements.

Then again, its been a looonnngggg time since I saw a large devil scale drop in New Invasion chests...