Help Please... new to DDO and need help creating a paladin build

[treblesum81]

Hi all,

Just arrived here after giving up trying to put this thing together on my own. I know too little about the intricacies of character creation (has always been this way with me... in every game...), and I keep either trying to add things I don't need or get the instant response of "gimp... do this..." when I try running my ideas past other players. So here is was I want:

Dwarf
Paladin
Spring Attack (fits my play style)
THF or TWF
Able to solo well and / or self heal / buff
Can't use any DDO Store purchased items (32pts etc)
Now that I've read about it, if THF then I would want KotC for the THF bonus involved...

I don't know if this is even possible, as I keep getting told I won't have enough of this or that, or it won't be really effective, so, if there is a way, please help.

Thanks,
Greg

[arminius]

I would think that spring attack is Very expensive for a paladin, because it takes 3 feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack). It can be very powerful if you play it right, though, because if you stay on the move and force the enemy to chase you, they get a -4 and you don't.

But remember that if you have 7 feat slots, and 3 of them are taken up by Spring Attack, and three or four of them by TWF (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and maybe OTWF) (or THF, ITHF, GTHF), then you don't have room for Power Attack or Toughness or Extend or, most importantly, Improved Critical. Without Improved Critical you are toast. 3 Spring Attack feats + 3 TWF (THF) feats + 1 Improved Critical = 7 = no Power Attack and no Toughness. No Toughness is very bad, especially on a dwarf. Human will get you one bonus feat or Fighter 2 splash gets you 2 extra feats if you really want to play around with this.

I am still of the belief that one should hold off on a paladin build till one has 32 point characters. Paladin points are just spread too thin to waste a single point. I still play my 28 point early paladin character, but will jump at Greater Reincarnation as soon as I get a chance.

_

[treblesum81]

Here is where KotC and THF comes in, as I understand it... instead of giving over 3-4 feats to TWF, you go for the capstone bonus and get the same effect as all of the THF feats (if I'm understanding it correctly?).

I am also not opposed to adding some fighter into the build to get the extra feats, but, as I said before, I know so little about all of the necessities that I wouldn't know how to create such a progression correctly...

Here is an add on question: Aside from the first 4 skill points, is there any special order to the progression in levels when working with a mixed class build? i.e., does it matter if I would do Paladin, Fighter, Paladin instead of Paladin, Paladin, Fighter?

Thanks,
Greg

PS: I know also that mixing the fighter in to get the extra feats would also preclude me from getting the KotC Capstone, so I guess that would mean a minimum of 3 levels extra of fighter to get 3 feats to fill in the holes...

[arminius]

Adding a fighter splash removes your capstone, which is only available to pure 20 paladins.

I'm not sure what you are thinking about re: the capstone + KotC = the 3 TWF or THF feats. You will be competing against other builds that have the capstone + KotC AND the TWF or THF feats.

That said, there is one more benefit to splashing fighter, which is tower shield availability. The nicest shields at end game are tower shields (currently).

The only other advice I'd have about splashing fighter is: 2 levels gets you +1 Strength, which is nice. But don't go over two levels because you would lose your prestige enhancement's last level. Another nice enhancement that splashing fighter gets you is Fighter Haste Boost 1, which is one level of fighter. Take one level at level 8, so that you can get Improved Critical one level before a normal paladin would. If you take another level of fighter, I wouldn't say it matters much when.

Another very popular paladin splash is two levels of rogue, which gives you evasion and unlocks UMD and Intimidate as class skills.

_

[arminius]

For completeness' sake, I should add that there are paladin multiclasses that go over the 18/2 threshold and are very successful, like the 12pal/6ftr/2rog. But definitely more advanced and something I wouldn't recommend to a beginner no matter how gifted.

And if you did choose the 18/2 pal/rog by any chance, then in that case the order of classes definitely matters. You would definitely want one rogue level first for the huge boost in skill points and the unlocking of UMD and Intimidate.

_

[treblesum81]

I'm not sure what you are thinking about re: the capstone + KotC = the 3 TWF or THF feats. You will be competing against other builds that have the capstone + KotC AND the TWF or THF feats.

I've been told that KotC + Capstone is the same as taking all 3 THF feats. Key phrase here is "I've been told". I keep going back to the fact that I know very little about creating builds at this point, which is why I've spent a lot of time trying to find one to fit my needs already, and why I'm here asking for help.

One thing you said that is confusing is the whole competing against other builds thing... I thought DDO was not PvP, so how would I be in competition with them??

[arminius]

I wondered about my choice of words with "compete," but couldn't think of a better way to put it. No, you won't be competing with them directly but I was just thinking in terms of maximizing the character you have. If one thought of the damage of KotC and the capstone as being a substitute for GTWF or GTHF, then one should just be aware that many people have them in addition to GTWF or GTHF, and while the damage of KotC and the capstone alone are pretty sweet, that still leaves you "behind."

I dunno, I can't think of a way to say it without implying competition. I guess I should just say, if you are going KotC and not Defender, then you really want GTWF or GTHF if you can get them. Having those feats is the cake on which your KotC and capstone is the yummy fluffy icing.

I will look for a TWF paladin build and link it. THF is much easier.

Edit: I can find a lot of TWF KotC builds, but they all assume Drow or 32 points. It is just too hard otherwise to get the Dexterity where you need it for a TWF build on a 28 pointer without sacrificing too much. You can do a Defender or a GTHF KotC on 28 points though. I have a GTHF KotC, and have to say that the numbers just fly. Especially with the capstone, all of that damage applies to all glancing blows, plus the regular great damage on glancing blows you get from GTHF combined. I can't imagine if you added Cleave and Great Cleave to that. Add in Divine Sacrifice and evil doers go down fast.

_

[treblesum81]

Lets then forget about TWF for the time being and focus on THF instead. Since it seems much easier to make it work correctly. Is it possible to get GTHF + KotC + Capstone all on a Dwarf? If so, what is the logical progression for this?

Also, I know that the biggest drawback for a Dwarf paladin is the low charisma, so I've found myself wondering just how that would affect me? What do I lose (I mean specifics, not just some nebulous "things will be harder") by having a low chr? Is this a stat that plays primarily into the spell casting side of the paladin, or do some of the primary combat skills suffer from low charisma as well?

EDIT: The reason I'm asking about the charisma thing is because I've seen a few paladin builds in my searching that didn't have a very high charisma, but still got pretty good reviews in the comments, yet I've been told over and over that charisma makes the paladin, and having one without enough will only end badly...

[eonfreon]

Lets then forget about TWF for the time being and focus on THF instead. Since it seems much easier to make it work correctly. Is it possible to get GTHF + KotC + Capstone all on a Dwarf? If so, what is the logical progression for this?

Also, I know that the biggest drawback for a Dwarf paladin is the low charisma, so I've found myself wondering just how that would affect me? What do I lose (I mean specifics, not just some nebulous "things will be harder") by having a low chr? Is this a stat that plays primarily into the spell casting side of the paladin, or do some of the primary combat skills suffer from low charisma as well?

EDIT: The reason I'm asking about the charisma thing is because I've seen a few paladin builds in my searching that didn't have a very high charisma, but still got pretty good reviews in the comments, yet I've been told over and over that charisma makes the paladin, and having one without enough will only end badly...

Most Paladins, especially Pure ones, want to start with a Base 16 Cha.
A 14 used to be fine, heck a 12 used to as well, but since the addition of Divine Might, anything lower then DM 3 really hurts dps wise.
DM 1 - 4 give you a clickie based on Turns that gives you + 2 to dmg per tier up to + 8 for a minute at a cast.
It's prerequs are 14, 16, 18, and 20 Cha.

A Dwarf has a difficult time qualifying for Divine Might 3 or 4, which needs a 18 and 20 (Base Cha + tomes).
Most Humans start with a 16 base Cha and rely on a + 2 Tome for DM 3.
Drow will start with a 17 Cha and rely on +1 and +3 Tomes for DM 3 and 4.

DM 1 - 4 give you a clickie based on Turns that gives you + 2 to dmg per tier up to + 8 for a minute at a cast.
It's prerequs are 14, 16, 18, and 20 Cha.

However, that does benefit TWF more then THF due to effectively adding dmg to both hands equally.
So a Dwarf THF with DM 1 and 2 with PA on constantly may be decent.

I've not heard about KotC and Capstone = 100% Proc on Glancing Blows. Even if it does, I think the THF Feats still add to the chance of procing glancing blows in the first place as well as allowing procs of other weapon and/or innate powers and effects.

Be interesting to hear if KotC and Capstone has any affect on THF Paladin abilities.

[Spiffyspiffy]

Also, I know that the biggest drawback for a Dwarf paladin is the low charisma, so I've found myself wondering just how that would affect me? What do I lose (I mean specifics, not just some nebulous "things will be harder") by having a low chr? Is this a stat that plays primarily into the spell casting side of the paladin, or do some of the primary combat skills suffer from low charisma as well?

Your primary loss would be getting Divine Might 4. DM3 should still be manageable.

It's not a huge loss, but IMO I don't think the pally capstone is worth not splashing two levels of something else and getting evasion and/or extra feats. The capstone -AND- DM4 versus the splash becomes a real decision though.


EDIT: The reason I'm asking about the charisma thing is because I've seen a few paladin builds in my searching that didn't have a very high charisma, but still got pretty good reviews in the comments, yet I've been told over and over that charisma makes the paladin, and having one without enough will only end badly...

Charisma bonus helps you qualify for Divine Might, adds to all your saves and partially determines the amount your Lay on Hands do. The reason to be a paladin, IMO, is for saves that don't suck and simulating a big HP pool by being able to quickly replace it. If you're being born below 14, consider being something else.

I'd consider, for a 28pt THF Dwarf pure Paladin:
STR 16
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 14

This avoids paying 3 points for any stat at creation. It -requires- you put level ups into CHA to get Divine Might 3, which would cause lots of people to grit their teeth, there seems to be some religious/superstitious affectation about putting all 5 of your level ups into a single stat. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it. Your goal is a natural (before items) CHA of 18. You can count on a +2 Tome, either by luck or from the auction house. A +3 will eventually come if you raid. I wouldn't count on a +4. So use one level up at least, two if you're not raiding.

Or you could go all out and use 3 or 4 of your level ups on CHA in order to qualify for DM4. However, going for DM4 will negatively effect your potential normal melee damage.

[treblesum81]

One thing I've noticed here is the departure of the DEX stat. I think that I'm stuck again because I want to have spring attack as well, something that requires a minimum of 13 Dex (due to dodge). I guess I'm starting to see the dilemma of going pure paladin... you only get 7 feats but there are a lot that can be worthwhile and it forces you into hard decisions about what you're going to take and what you're going to do without...

Its looking like I wouldn't be able to take GTHF and Spring Attack without giving the previously mentioned feats like improved crit etc. What exactly is the KotC bonus? Can its loss be offset by adding some fighter skills / abilities into the mix? What about the rogue skills you mentioned?

I guess the ultimate decision is what will the character look like in the end. As I'm gathering more information, I'm finding that I want to keep it as powerful in solo as possible, but I want it to be a valued part of a group still so I don't end up at level 8+ with no real success in groups because I spent too much energy / development points on building it up for solo work...

[treblesum81]

Here's another question... is DM(any number) a must? Are there any ways to get something similar without it?

[Spiffyspiffy]

Spring attack is more monk or rangerish, especially for fat squat dwarfs.

If you insist though, take out 2 from CON from above and put it into DEX. Eating a tome will give you 13 dex.

Your biggest problem then is that you won't have spring attack until 12 unless you do a feat swap. You can't eat a tome until level 3, and it won't help you for feats in that level. So you can't take dodge until 6, mobility at 9, spring attack at 12. With two feat swaps you can get it at 6.

Here's the kicker: You don't need it at higher levels. A -4 at level 20 is nothing. For the same reason OTWF is unnecessary at high levels. Paladins are a +1 BAB per level class, and can get away with cutting corners like spring attack because of it.


Here's another question... is DM(any number) a must? Are there any ways to get something similar without it?

Nothing is a must, but Divine Might comes close. Paladin DPS isn't so hot without it.

[treblesum81]

Spring attack is more monk or rangerish, especially for fat squat dwarfs.

If you insist though, take out 2 from CON from above and put it into DEX. Eating a tome will give you 13 dex.

Your biggest problem then is that you won't have spring attack until 12 unless you do a feat swap. You can't eat a tome until level 3, and it won't help you for feats in that level. So you can't take dodge until 6, mobility at 9, spring attack at 12. With two feat swaps you can get it at 6.

Here's the kicker: You don't need it at higher levels. A -4 at level 20 is nothing. For the same reason OTWF is unnecessary at high levels. Paladins are a +1 BAB per level class, and can get away with cutting corners like spring attack because of it.



Nothing is a must, but Divine Might comes close. Paladin DPS isn't so hot without it.

My thinking is along the lines of damage efficiency rather than DPS, which are not the same thing in my book. Think of the difference between a jet and a train, the jet can travel fast from A to B, but it can't carry all that much and it has to stop every so often. A train on the other hand is slow, but it can carry many times more than a jet over the same distance. My thinking is, rather than look for a way to force DM3-4 maybe find a more consistent way to do the damage (increased to-hit bonuses, etc). I may not know what I'm talking about here, but I can already tell you I'm not a huge fan of any buff that has to be recast every minute. I would much prefer some lesser, but long lasting, buffs which allow me to keep swinging while others are looking to rebuff... Basically, I think it would be worthwhile to pump up the ability to hit to the point where I would never, or almost never, miss and hit crits as often as possible...

As far as the spring attack goes, I really only want it because I tend to dance around while I'm swinging and that would increase my hit percentage at least in the formative levels. If it really doesn't have at later levels, then I probably don't need it. If there is something better / more beneficial (ie TWF instead of THF, or even something else) then I would be happy to take it instead.

[treblesum81]

I'm also curious about how to go about raising skills. I've seen some builds which pour lots of skill points into skills which don't seem like they will do much good (one build put every last skill point for a paladin into balance??). Should a paladin use all of their skill points into something like concentration? or should they spread them out to be more balanced?

[Spiffyspiffy]

I may not know what I'm talking about here, but I can already tell you I'm not a huge fan of any buff that has to be recast every minute. I would much prefer some lesser, but long lasting, buffs which allow me to keep swinging while others are looking to rebuff.

Play something other than paladin. Yes, I'm serious.

Divine Favor (level 1 spell) and Zeal (level 4 spell) are both self buffs that last for 5 minutes - At level 20 and with the Extend feat. Normally its 2.5 minutes. These two are mandatory. Angelskin, Prayer, and Virtue are more situational and mostly useful while leveling with non-twinked equipment.

In addition, you'll be pounding on that "Smite Evil" button as well.

Other melees either don't self-buff or are generating buffs of the nature of 15+ minutes. They are the ones who "keep swinging". If that's the playstyle you want, pick a class that fits.

[treblesum81]

What class would you recommend then? Fighter? Cleric? I'm open to suggestions.

[eonfreon]

What class would you recommend then? Fighter? Cleric? I'm open to suggestions.

Considering you want long buffs and spring attack, I highly recommend Ranger.

[arminius]

Considering you want long buffs and spring attack, I highly recommend Ranger.

That is a really good point, if the OP is more married to Spring Attack than Paladin. I would have suggested it earlier but assumed the "paladin" part was the non-negotiable part.

_

[treblesum81]

I guess I'm also to blame a little for not being clear about the fact that the only thing set in stone is my play style, leaving other variables (mostly) to be changed. The one thing I wand to point out though is that I don't want a light fighter. The reason I had started to gravitate towards a paladin is because, even if I move around a lot (spring attack), I am still a wade-through-the-middle fighter, so if I'm going to be a ranger, it needs to be almost impossible to hit because I won't be able to use heavy armor.

Any suggestions?
Thanks.

[excess]

Honestly, with the AC improvements you get through the Tempest PrE line, I'd argue that rangers are in fact harder to hit than a DPS paladin. TempestIII grants +4AC, dodge (prerequisite to mobility for spring attack) gives you another, fit in CE (which you could do on a ranger, harder on a paladin because of the existing stat balancing and being short feats) for another +5... Frankly, come end game, the AC that heavy armor gives you is often sacrificed in favour of the fast switching flexibility granted by robes in any case.