Perma-Death Haters... Why?

[Babale]

First, I'm not sure if this is the place, but since the case happened in Sarlona, I'll post here. Mods, feel free to move this.

Now then! My story:

My level 3 PermaDeath Ranger/Rogue was about to do Stealthy Repo, but since he was PermaDeath, I wasn't taking any chances. I posted on the advice channel, "Can a toon with maxed sneaking skills solo Stealthy Repo?" Along with answers to my questions, I got a tell saying, "I'd be glad to do it with you." I replied that I was a member of a PD guild, and that I could only party in-guild. As a response, all I got was "lol". So I asked, "what's so funny?" and got: "Are you ********, or is that a serious question?". Now, I have been attacked for being PD before, but never this bad. And then, when I tried to sort it out, I saw a message on the advice channel from the person I was talking too: "How do I stop someone from sending me annoying tells?" The guy went from wanting to group to downright hostile, just because I said I'm PD! And when I brought my story up on the advice chat, almost everyone proceeded to say things like, "I'd laugh too." Two people rushed to my defense, but that's it.

A while later, the advice chat turned to talking about what each person's highest level toon is. I said that mine was a 6, although I tried to minimize the PD aspect. Another person said that their highest toon was 3, due to altism. And everyone was sympathetic! I was amazed. Why are people so anti-PD, but when another play-style cripples toon levels even more, nobody cares? Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to flame the Altist too. But I want to know, why is it that people are so opposed to PD as compared to other strange play-styles?

My guild seems to be used to this, and the last time something like this happened, they told me that that's just how DDO is. But I want to hear those of you who ridicule us who Perma-Death. What is it about removing a toon from a guild at death that's so much worse than never getting past level 3 due to too many alts, or that's so strange compared to Roleplaying?

I'm not looking to start a flame war here, just to see your opinions.

~Respectfully, Babale.

[hydra_ex]

Hopefully its just the annoying newbs in the harbour who haven't the faintest idea was PD even is. PD is a respectable play-style choice, and even if it doesn't fit your fancy, nobody who's been playing this game for longer than a month will insult you. Once all the publicity surrounding DDO dies down a little, hopefully there won't be such annoying newbies.

[Mav145]

I have never seen this but I think that it is stupid. Who cares? There is room for all kinds on the servers - permadeath, zergers, and, quite obviously, absolute retards who get on the advice channel and flame people.

Don't worry about it - there are stupid people to be found in many places but anonymous web-identities seem to be where they are most common.

Play on....may the plat be plentiful and the bodies lie in piles at your feet.

[Babale]

Actually, it seemed that the people who were nicest WERE the new guys. For 5 minutes or so after the argument over PD in the Advice chat, I was getting many tells from new guys asking what PermaDeath is. Most of them were far more polite than the so-called experienced players, who started laughing without asking me to explain the rules.


EDIT: Thanks for the support guys. It's nice to see not everyone hates PD by instinct.

[Lehrman]

So if you get flamed and die, do you have to create a new forum account?

Sorry, could not resist.

Basically, everyone enjoys different aspects of the game. Some enjoy leveling to cap, some running specific quests, some permadeath etc. If I had asked to join you and you told me that I could not because I was not a PD guild member, I would have laughed as well, but not because you were PD. I would have laughed because there is something vaguely funny about being excluded for being willing to use a rez shrine. I am certain there is more to permadeath than that, such as the no-twinking rule, but still, the elitism is kind of funny.

[Angelus_dead]

My level 3 PermaDeath Ranger/Rogue was about to do Stealthy Repo, but since he was PermaDeath, I wasn't taking any chances. I posted on the advice channel, "Can a toon with maxed sneaking skills solo Stealthy Repo?" Along with answers to my questions, I got a tell saying, "I'd be glad to do it with you." I replied that I was a member of a PD guild, and that I could only party in-guild. As a response, all I got was "lol". So I asked, "what's so funny?"
What's funny is how you're trying to circumvent the PD rules.

You're asking non-PD players to help you win a quest. The fact that they'd help you by typing information instead of joining the group doesn't change the fact of what's happening: You are looking for spoiler information gained by non-PD playstyle.

Permadeath is something to make the game harder and more dangerous. So it seems odd for a PD player to ask for advice to make the game easier and safer.

[Babale]

Elitism? There is nothing of the sort.

Would you have laughed if I said, "Sorry, I'm waiting for some Real Life friends?" or, "Sorry, I play with Role Players only?"

@ Angelus Dead: Normally I agree and don't ask for help on the advice chat. But, 1) I was the only member online and 2) I had heard about the whole "Sneaking in Stealthy Repo can win at level 1" and just wanted to verify it.

[Angelus_dead]

@ Angelus Dead: Normally I agree and don't ask for help on the advice chat. But, 1) I was the only member online and 2) I had heard about the whole "Sneaking in Stealthy Repo can win at level 1" and just wanted to verify it.
Yeah, it's an abnormal situation, which makes it funny. It's simply a weird thing to happen, so someone might laugh. Not really strange.

The problem was caused by you when you saw a three-letter "lol" and decided to make a big deal of it.

[Babale]

Asking "Why lol?" isn't making a big deal. Saying, "Are you ********?" is.

[Arnya]

These are the people with crappy cars who will always hate someone who is 'rich' enough to buy a better car.

Because they would never make the extra effort in life to have what the other guy had, he's a rich wanker.

Same thing with PD. These peeps must find the game so hard they have to rip you down because they won't go the extra mile to have what you have.

But then again, asking for advice on a PD character is like pulling up next to the crappy car guy at the lights and asking how to check the oil...

...Or like the new player who comes to the forums and tries to redefine terms that have been used for nearly 4 years, because he feels like it :)

[knightgf]

I don't hate permadeath characters. Heck, its kind of weird to see people hating them.

The only reason I could see people hating them is because they believe permadeath people are 'afraid' to die. Even then, I wouldn't hate them for any reason...however, because of their pact they made with themselves, I would not want to join a party with these people at the same time, because of their fragile status. It just would be too much on me. I would be so ashamed of myself if a permadeath character died in my party. Thus explaining why I would not adventure with 'permadeath' characters.

However, on the other hand, I do praise those who do try permadeath on their characters! It is a long and grueling challenge; once you die, you die. Like in real-life. Unless they make exceptions in the guild, like resurrection spells from a claric and stuff like that, but not many do that stuff.

(And no, i am not permadeath by the way, I wont let 1 silly death in-game ruin all that I worked for.)

[techwench]

I was watching this conversation earlier...Sarlona harbor, right? I only remember one person telling you that they'd laugh, too. I also remember other people telling you to just squelch him and be done with it. And even one person who sympathized with you.

Personally, I'd chuckle - NOT because I don't like you or permadeath, but because it's one of those "oh man, yeah, that's gotta be tough...I'm glad I'm not you" kind of nervous laughter. It's nothing personal, it's just not something I'd want to do (at least not yet) just because it would suck to die and have to re-roll.

BUT, you can't tell tone of voice in text. :(

[Babale]

Yeah, not a lot of people flamed me in the ADVICE chat. Most of those were in the private chat. Along with one of the sympathizers. Sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

There's a lot of dumb stuff going on in the advice channel, and I'm not just talking about bad advice. Don't let it bother you.

So, why do you have a prohibition against grouping with non-PD's? is this your guild's rule? If so, why? I mean, it wouldn't bother me to run with you, if you play decently and aren't a jerk.

[Xgemina]

I was in the harbor on my new lowbie and saw the beginning of it. For the most part it looked like 1 or 2 idiots and a half-dozen or so people who were just curious in gen chat. Just ignore the morons and chalk it up on the positive side; you might have convinced a couple of people to try PD.

BTW, I was the one saying there was plenty of room in DDO for multiple playstyles and PD just happens to be one of them.

[cdemeritt]

What's funny is how you're trying to circumvent the PD rules.

You're asking non-PD players to help you win a quest. The fact that they'd help you by typing information instead of joining the group doesn't change the fact of what's happening: You are looking for spoiler information gained by non-PD playstyle.

Permadeath is something to make the game harder and more dangerous. So it seems odd for a PD player to ask for advice to make the game easier and safer.

First, you are assuming that his PD guild has a no spoiler rule.... Of course I'm assuming you don't know his guild, and well, that's just bad for me...


But the gist is that each PD guild has it's own set of rules... Mortal Voyage is very strict... and after reading their ruleset, I had to pass on their style... Sublime Permadeath is a lot less strict on what is allowed... and I found it to be much more agreeable to my play... So the OP might not be breaking their rules...

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>My level 3 PermaDeath Ranger/Rogue was about to do Stealthy Repo, but since he was PermaDeath, I wasn't taking any chances. I posted on the advice channel, "Can a toon with maxed sneaking skills solo Stealthy Repo?" Along with answers to my questions, I got a tell saying, "I'd be glad to do it with you." I replied that I was a member of a PD guild, and that I could only party in-guild. As a response, all I got was "lol". So I asked, "what's so funny?" and got: "Are you ********, or is that a serious question?". <cut>

He reacted a bit overboard, but he might have been laughing that you picked a playstyle that prevents you from playing a multi-player game with others. I might have laughted too, until I thought about it more.

I have nothing against permadeath. Even took a few stabs at it myself. But for me, I relized that permadeath is fun in PnP. In a video game where socializing is as much a goal as anything, not so much. To each their own though.

You just need to realize that different people are going to think different things are strange or funny. When you called the guy out on that, he over-reacted. But intentional or not, you did call him out and ask him to justify his emotional response to you. Some people don't take that well.

[Lost_Leader]

Actually, it seemed that the people who were nicest WERE the new guys. For 5 minutes or so after the argument over PD in the Advice chat, I was getting many tells from new guys asking what PermaDeath is. Most of them were far more polite than the so-called experienced players, who started laughing without asking me to explain the rules.


EDIT: Thanks for the support guys. It's nice to see not everyone hates PD by instinct.

Something you may not realize is that most of the "so called experienced players" have been so turned off by the idiots in the general/trade/advice chat that they have turned off those channels on all of their characters. After this experience, you too may decide to ignore the masses.

Unfortunately, as more good people turn off these channels, more and more of the responses are like the one you got.

Out of my guild, I am one of less than half that continues to put up with the open channels and will occasionally throw in a bit of advice or answer a question. Of my friends who aren't guildies, there are even fewer who still have general/trade/advice open.

The last review I read on DDO lauded the game, but said the downside was the community. The mature and good natured community which we, as players, have always said was one of the best parts of the game.

I don't really know where I am going with this, whether it is a reality check, or calling out good people to turn those channels back on, or telling you to join in and turn them off, or just saying that you should take everything you hear in General/Trade/Advice with a grain of salt...

[Arnya]

Some people don't take that well.

Some people don't take anything well.

I'm having an argument right now on Orien about whether manyshot is based on BAB or to-hit.

/Sigh.

[Uska]

Sounds like you ran into some jerks me I would love to do some PD but really just dont have the time plus what play times I do have there are very few PD types playing, I think its a cool play style and admire those that try it.

[Uska]

What's funny is how you're trying to circumvent the PD rules.

You're asking non-PD players to help you win a quest. The fact that they'd help you by typing information instead of joining the group doesn't change the fact of what's happening: You are looking for spoiler information gained by non-PD playstyle.

Permadeath is something to make the game harder and more dangerous. So it seems odd for a PD player to ask for advice to make the game easier and safer.

How is he trying to do that he asked if it was possible not how to do it

[Babale]

There's a lot of dumb stuff going on in the advice channel, and I'm not just talking about bad advice. Don't let it bother you.

So, why do you have a prohibition against grouping with non-PD's? is this your guild's rule? If so, why? I mean, it wouldn't bother me to run with you, if you play decently and aren't a jerk.

We can't group with outsiders since they: 1) Use ress shrines and 2) Got to their level by using ress shrines.

@HJH: I do group with other people, but those people are my guildies. We are very tight nit.

@Lost Leader: I disable General Chat to avoid missing guild and party chat in the scrolling, but I keep Advice and Trade on to give advice to new players.

@cdemeritt:
I'm not sure exactly what Sublime was like, as this was before my time (it IS dead, right?), but I'm pretty sure we were similar. Many of my guildies had buddies/characters in Sublime.

As for our rules, we don't have a no spoiler law, but you try not to shout, "OK there's a trap right there." We aren't roleplayers at all, but we try to say, "It seems like there are scorchmarks on the wall here." But if everyone in the group has beat the quest three or four times, we let this rule pass. Also, you can be brought back from the dead by a ress spell if the person who can cast it is in the party at the time of death. Sadly, most of our play is pre-ress, since PermaDeath is pretty harsh, even in a less strict guild. Oh, and we DID use ress cakes. But they ran out pretty quick ;).

If it means anything to any of you, I'm from Extreme Explorers.

[Thelmallen]

I think PD sounds pretty fun. And don't worry, people don't hate PD, dumba**es do. Let it slide.

[HumanJHawkins]

Some people don't take anything well.

I'm having an argument right now on Orien about whether manyshot is based on BAB or to-hit.

/Sigh.

Ha. Dumbasses. Everyone knows it's based on your Will save.

[Zaal]

Perma-Death really does sound like fun and one day, I'll give it a whirl...

I just built a FAVORED SOUL / MONK build and he's I think lvl 2 right now... Kinda on the fence though since I burned a tome on him... late to lose that if he dies... tough world out there eh?

[Angelus_dead]

First, you are assuming that his PD guild has a no spoiler rule.
No, I assumed no such thing. My comment was based only on the principles underlying all PD gameplay, which is the reason no-spoiler rules are often added.

It's a simple fact: If you ask people to tell you how to do something, you are asking them for help.

[AMDarkwolf]

honestly, imo this sounds like one of those thing you should just LET GO.

Nothing against PD, even might try it myself sometime. the guy who asked if your ********, just squelch and be done with it. And the stuff on the chat, really, doesn't seem like anyone really said anything bad to you.

But really, why come to the forums with a long 'wah wah' post?

Just let it go, squelch the ones who downright insult you for how YOU want to play, and be done with it. Seriously didn't need to waste forum space with this and really doesn't need 2 pages of replies.

[cyanpill]

Without trying PD in DDO, I know it is not for me. I've tried hardcore mode in diablo II and found that it was far too easy to die to bugs and/or lag. For example the spike trap bug in DDO, I think that has caught me a few times already. But I am impressed by people who manage to keep going with their rules.


So I asked, "what's so funny?" and got: "Are you ********, or is that a serious question?".

The answer here is "well, I'm not ******** then."

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't hate perma-death. In fact I admire you guys.

But I do think you are misguided. Even PnP D&D is not perma death.
Drag your friend's body to a cleric and pay him to raise you.

Death is costly in PnP not permanent.

And although I like tactical play in DDO, I am impatient, and am glad that I don't have to delete a char everytime I make a mistake.
I also don't last long after the rest of a party (PUG) makes a mistake(s) so again, I don't want to have to delete my char.

[Babale]

Actually, death isn't that easy in Eberron. It's a low level setting, and you'd be hard pressed to find a cleric capable of Raise Dead.

And @ bug deaths: Deaths caused by lag or bugs don't count for us.

[Vua]

No, I assumed no such thing. My comment was based only on the principles underlying all PD gameplay, which is the reason no-spoiler rules are often added.

It's a simple fact: If you ask people to tell you how to do something, you are asking them for help.

He didn't ask how to do it, he asked if it was possible to do it. How hard is that for you to understand?

[Mockduck]

I think none of this would have happened if you would have put up an LFM for the quest, stating that you're a PD player. Your problem was to try to look for group in the advice chat! :)

[~Zornochio]

@cdemeritt:
I'm not sure exactly what Sublime was like, as this was before my time (it IS dead, right?), but I'm pretty sure we were similar. Many of my guildies had buddies/characters in Sublime.


Sublime is far from dead, we've been here since the original headstart :). Extreme Explorers, Mortal Voyage, and Valhalla were all started by Sublime members that wanted to try something a little different, same with the Core forming from Mortal Voyage members. So you will see familiar faces in many of these PD guilds (I'm Sweeney/Bertha in EE but have PD characters on all servers except Orien).

Permadeath has grown so much that I can't keep track of all the groups anymore :D

[SquelchHU]

I don't have any problem with PD even though I wouldn't do it. But I suspect at least part of the hate stems from certain people on the forums who support PD but regularly attack and demean those that don't play it. In effect these people drive others away from their playstyle by making others think worse of it.

I don't know about you, but if I enjoyed playing the game a certain way, and wanted others to join me I would focus on advocating the positive aspects of it. And I'm sure there's some PD people doing that, but right now it's suffering from some rather bad publicity by its main proponents.

[Hokonoso]

don't feel too bad, i still get *****ed out for zerging even at lvl 20 since dungeon alert is here. i frankly just don't see a reason to kill mobs beyond the objective even with that red skull looming over my face. if anything it gives the game more challenge since i risk the chance of getting harried if i'm not swift enough.

just ignore the low lvl noobs, they are mostly going to laugh at you because to them who the goal is to race to max lvl don't understand that you are actually u know, having fun! but after awhile they will get over it and stop ridiculing you, however, you are in dire straights being in a PD guild where there are no quality groups on this server below lvl 12 due to f2p ruining the game at that lvl range. i feel sorry for you but alas i do not see much you can do about this situation.

[Caiburn]

Next time just say you play "hardcore mode" and thusly CANNOT group with them, that sounds more like someone of that mindset may understand. If they ask what it means, call them a noob and tell them to google it. :p

[Vivalavida]

PD is hardcore. I admire you.

[Aranticus]

PD is hardcore. I admire you.

wah viva you are really chatty today lol

[HGM-Chi]

I've only been on DDO for about a week, but I'd love to try a PD char. I can't imagine mocking someone who is trying it, I think it commands a little respect, really.

Any suggestions on a guild that would be happy with a complete noob to DDO and PD? Oh, and that doesn't mind an infrequent player due to work/wife/kids (not necessarily in that order)? Also, can any toon join as long as he's death free, or do you have to build specifically for the guild you join?

[Junts]

I've only been on DDO for about a week, but I'd love to try a PD char. I can't imagine mocking someone who is trying it, I think it commands a little respect, really.

Any suggestions on a guild that would be happy with a complete noob to DDO and PD? Oh, and that doesn't mind an infrequent player due to work/wife/kids (not necessarily in that order)? Also, can any toon join as long as he's death free, or do you have to build specifically for the guild you join?


Much like Aranticus and dating, PD guilds ascribe to the philosophy of 'get em while they're young and ignorant', so I'm sure they'd all be glad to hep you .. just find the PD guild with a ruleset most akin to how you want to play, because they do a lot of haggling and rules-lawyering about what is and isn't permitted and what's too monty haul or perverted.

[kafrielveddicus]

I've only been on DDO for about a week, but I'd love to try a PD char. I can't imagine mocking someone who is trying it, I think it commands a little respect, really.

Any suggestions on a guild that would be happy with a complete noob to DDO and PD? Oh, and that doesn't mind an infrequent player due to work/wife/kids (not necessarily in that order)? Also, can any toon join as long as he's death free, or do you have to build specifically for the guild you join?

Check out the Official Permadeath Guild Listing in the permadeath & Static Groups section!!!

[Dexxaan]

Two things:

Theres no such thing as PermaDeath hate (on Sarlona that I know of).

There is however a marketing Tactic that employs concern to awaken the needed "breaking the Ice" that a new "product" requires. (The exact Marketing term escapes me)


But anyway, In conclusion:

The thread is a joke; good Marketing mechanism, but /fail.


And for the record:

I think Perma Death is interesting enough to try*, but it would have to be with tried & true players....not a Mosaic of players who think an "Oops!" is acceptable to make me reroll. :cool:


* Did it on Argo - The experience was.... meh.


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