The need for more HP and other changes for Epic quests

[ddoer]

before mod 9 update 1, i.e. the introduction of epic quests, I believe 300 HP is good enough for end-game and most cases. And I personally don't even take toughness and spend large ingredients for a tier 3 HP item, as I'm happy with a 300-ish HP. Most mobs in Shavarath deals with 20-30 damage a hit and my self-healing is good enough to handle. There were several discussions about HP/Con vs Reflex Save/Dex in the past, and there is a recent one in the barb forum that some arguments are relevant to us as follows:

Importance of a high reflex save in mod9? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198854)
New Player Nuking 101 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203686)
For anyone who makes a Barbarian (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=212141)


but in epic, melee mobs mostly deals with 50-80 damage, wiz-king disintegrates us for 400 damage, and I saw epic traps killing people in one hit. Most mobs do not do elemental damages. Non-WF self-healing can't keep up with the pace of taking damage, and without a healer, I feel I need to heal myself too frequently that affect my normal casting. And worst of all, the damages are high enough to break my concentration when using scrolls.

i think the HP threshold should raise to 400. More healing amplification is needed.

Edited - for spells, the following spells seem to be much more important:

L3: Halt Undead
L7: delayed blast fireball
L8: Incendiary Cloud
L9: Meteor Swarm


What do you think the epics affect the HP vs Reflex/Dex debate? does anyone with relatively high reflex save find the reflex save useful in Epic? did you/do you plan to change any feat, such as taking quicken, for epic?

[FluffyCalico]

[LIST]


What do you think the epics affect the HP vs Reflex/Dex debate? does anyone with relatively high reflex save find the reflex save useful in Epic? did you/do you plan to change any feat, such as taking quicken, for epic?

Well my ranger with 35 reflex was able to stand in the ADQ epic raids blades all day and not get hurt by them. But I would say if you don't have evasion you will be wanting to dodge them as even half damage from them will add up if you just stand there. However if you have both 35 reflex and evasion you can pretty much pretend they are not there.

[ddoer]

on DQ epic, the saving throw of blade barrier is 31. (fail when rolled 1 or a total of 30) so, getting a +30 is enough. Those Dex-based sorc who get 2-4 more reflex save will benefit from it. And those who totally ignore dex and also don't boost their dex will suffer.

[Junts]

Amazing how much epic rewarded high-hp sorcerors with huge concentration and no-fail umd!

Outside stuff like blade barrier and (super) cometfall, my human does a pretty good job scroll healing himself through massive amounts of aggro, though OOB tends to require some extra heals from others as there's just too many mobs.

Epic also really rewards people who max out on crit chance/multiplier and carry major lore items, since 10 regular firewalls will frequently not kill important mob packs fast enough, or in OOB (with mass cures), at all, but a single 400 point crit fw can be good for 15-25 kills.

I would not want to be a low con drow sorceror in this content; a 450 hp human does pretty well, competitive with and in ways better than wf casters, who rarely actually have fire/cold pushed to the max.

if our capstone worked, it'd be even better.

The idea that you're gonna make your reflex saves on dcs over 35 is pretty laughable, too. I find myself taking my reisstance item off in every quest except for raiyum (feeblemind sucks), since it isnt even vaguely helpful against the reflex saves that have to be made.

good reason to carry single-target PFEelements, too.

i disagree with you re: dq, while the blade save isnt that high, the reflex save dcs on damage spells are substantially higher, and you're not making them.


I have been very glad to play a human sorc with 3 tiers of wand/scorll and 20% healing amp, since I get back nearly 200 hp per scroll .. I'd really hate to be a drow in this content.

[Monkey_Archer]

Amazing how much epic rewarded high-hp sorcerors with huge concentration and no-fail umd!

Outside stuff like blade barrier and (super) cometfall, my human does a pretty good job scroll healing himself through massive amounts of aggro, though OOB tends to require some extra heals from others as there's just too many mobs.

Epic also really rewards people who max out on crit chance/multiplier and carry major lore items, since 10 regular firewalls will frequently not kill important mob packs fast enough, or in OOB (with mass cures), at all, but a single 400 point crit fw can be good for 15-25 kills.

I would not want to be a low con drow sorceror in this content; a 450 hp human does pretty well, competitive with and in ways better than wf casters, who rarely actually have fire/cold pushed to the max.

if our capstone worked, it'd be even better.

The idea that you're gonna make your reflex saves on dcs over 35 is pretty laughable, too. I find myself taking my reisstance item off in every quest except for raiyum (feeblemind sucks), since it isnt even vaguely helpful against the reflex saves that have to be made.

good reason to carry single-target PFEelements, too.

i disagree with you re: dq, while the blade save isnt that high, the reflex save dcs on damage spells are substantially higher, and you're not making them.


I have been very glad to play a human sorc with 3 tiers of wand/scorll and 20% healing amp, since I get back nearly 200 hp per scroll .. I'd really hate to be a drow in this content.

I think its the opposite... all the desert quests have a large number of reflex based spells in them. 30 DC BBs, 35ish DC spells etc... many are all but unavoidable...
getting 25+ reflex save (30+ with a pali near) on a 400 hp caster sounds alot more survivable then a 450 hp caster...

I agree though, dont wanna be a drow here ;)

[Junts]

Pali aura is nowhere near large enough to be a real help against that kind of stuff. Especially considering the nature of dispel spamming, well, ****, I've been running all this with my vile blasphemy on around 22-23 reflex and I almost never see a successful save .. as usual, the key is to not make the saving throw in the first place, or to have it not matter (eg, protection/elements) whether you succeed or not. It doesnt matter what your reflex is when you take a 400 point cometfall to the teeth; the 200 is enough all on its own.

Dance that ****, kill, and move on.

[Monkey_Archer]

Pali aura is nowhere near large enough to be a real help against that kind of stuff. Especially considering the nature of dispel spamming, well, ****, I've been running all this with my vile blasphemy on around 22-23 reflex and I almost never see a successful save .. as usual, the key is to not make the saving throw in the first place, or to have it not matter (eg, protection/elements) whether you succeed or not. It doesnt matter what your reflex is when you take a 400 point cometfall to the teeth; the 200 is enough all on its own.

Dance that ****, kill, and move on.

Again it comes down to 20-40 hp vs 15-20% less failed saves....

Crunching the numbers, 3 higher reflex roughly results in 10% less damage taken on average, while 20 hp is only about 5% more hp....

[Aspenor]

Again it comes down to 20-40 hp vs 15-20% less failed saves....

Crunching the numbers, 3 higher reflex roughly results in 10% less damage taken on average, while 20 hp is only about 5% more hp....

Number crunching of that type does nothing where casters are concerned.

More HP = Better. Period. End of story. I have played both types of arcane casters and it is abundantly clear which is superior.

[Monkey_Archer]

Number crunching of that type does nothing where casters are concerned.

More HP = Better. Period. End of story. I have played both types of arcane casters and it is abundantly clear which is superior.

6 build points for 20 hp is a bad investment, no matter what class you are talking about. There is no threshold target that 20 hp will mean survival vs death...

Whether you can take 1 extra hit (or 1/4 of an 80 pt melee hit in epic :rolleyes:) matters very little. What matters more is how fast you take damage. There is almost no chance yourself, or a healer can keep you alive if you take 400 damage in one hit mid combat. If it takes you to 1 hp or 21hp is not going to matter.

Anyone with a decent amount of hp can stay alive though consistent, predictable damage. High burst damage is and always has been the worst kind of damage in the game. High saves in general reduce the amount of burst damage you receive, hp does not.

[Aspenor]

6 build points for 20 hp is a bad investment, no matter what class you are talking about. There is no threshold target that 20 hp will mean survival vs death...

Whether you can take 1 extra hit (or 1/4 of an 80 pt melee hit in epic :rolleyes:) matters very little. What matters more is how fast you take damage. There is almost no chance yourself, or a healer can keep you alive if you take 400 damage in one hit mid combat. If it takes you to 1 hp or 21hp is not going to matter.

Anyone with a decent amount of hp can stay alive though consistent, predictable damage. High burst damage is and always has been the worst kind of damage in the game. High saves in general reduce the amount of burst damage you receive, hp does not.

More hit points does help you stay alive through high damage spikes. My sorc has ~500 hit points, which is more than just 20 hp above your standard dex-focused sorcerer. Those extra hit points allow you to stay alive to heal yourself, or others to heal you. A higher reflex save doesn't actually help against spike damage, because it only helps 15-20% of the time. The rest of the time the reflex focused sorcerer ends up bloody paste on the floor of the dungeon.

I find it interesting you feel the damage is unavoidable, it most certainly is not.

[Monkey_Archer]

More hit points does help you stay alive through high damage spikes. My sorc has ~500 hit points, which is more than just 20 hp above your standard dex-focused sorcerer. Those extra hit points allow you to stay alive to heal yourself, or others to heal you. A higher reflex save doesn't actually help against spike damage, because it only helps 15-20% of the time. The rest of the time the reflex focused sorcerer ends up bloody paste on the floor of the dungeon.

I find it interesting you feel the damage is unavoidable, it most certainly is not.

Explain to me how 2 con = more then 20 hp?

Why do people insist on saying avoidable this, avoidable that.... if everything was so avoidable a 200 hp drow would be the best caster... rofl...

[Aspenor]

Explain to me how 2 con = more then 20 hp?

Why do people insist on saying avoidable this, avoidable that.... if everything was so avoidable a 200 hp drow would be the best caster... rofl...

Not all damage is avoidable at once, but the vast majority can be avoided. Hit points are a safety net, they increase your margin of error. The less hit points you have, the more likely you are to end up dead when you get unlucky.

I'll pose another question, which is more sensible:

Why spend build points on something that will only help 15-20% of the time that a reflex-based effect hits you (which is hopefully rare, if you're any good it should be) when you could have something that helps you 100% of the time no matter what kind of incoming damage you may face happens to be?

I would think you'd be able to figure out where the hit points come from, so I won't bother to answer your question....

[Monkey_Archer]

Not all damage is avoidable at once, but the vast majority can be avoided. Hit points are a safety net, they increase your margin of error. The less hit points you have, the more likely you are to end up dead when you get unlucky.

I'll pose another question, which is more sensible:

Why spend build points on something that will only help 15-20% of the time that a reflex-based effect hits you (which is hopefully rare, if you're any good it should be) when you could have something that helps you 100% of the time no matter what kind of incoming damage you may face happens to be?

I would think you'd be able to figure out where the hit points come from, so I won't bother to answer your question....

Saves are also a safety net... prevention vs cure?

Technically, 20 hp only helps you if an attack leaves you with less then 20 hp... which i would argue happens just as often, if not less often then you need to make a reflex save. (at least in my experience dropping below 20 hp is rare...)

And no, i have no clue how 2 con nets you more then 20 hp... perhaps you could enlighten me?

[Aspenor]

S

Technically, 20 hp only helps you if an attack leaves you with less then 20 hp... which i would argue happens just as often, if not less often then you need to make a reflex save. (at least in my experience dropping below 20 hp is rare...)


It's arguments like this that confuse people into thinking a 6 con character is a good idea.

[Varis]

I don't see all the fuss.. my drow did great in epic quests. I'm still lacking a bunch of gear so I only have 322 hp's currently (got all the shroud material but the **** raid is down) but the questing was really quite cruise control.

When I'm done with gear I'll have 407 HP's (that is including the rage spell) and a 27 reflex save. Probably overkill but it will leave me more room for error when doing epic solo


As for the resurfaced HP or reflex discussion... pointless.. you need both. You need all saves in fact. Skip on one and your character will be that much weaker.

Also, think beyond the current mod. We are getting more content and with that new challenges. Different areas in our defense will be tested and I can't imagine that only throwing hp's at the problem will be the permanent solution.

[Monkey_Archer]

It's arguments like this that confuse people into thinking a 6 con character is a good idea.

Ok... for the record im talking about a 16 con, 14 dex caster VS an 18 con 8 dex caster...

DO NOT under any circumstance even remotely consider rolling anything with 6 con!!!! :eek:

[Aspenor]

As for the resurfaced HP or reflex discussion... pointless.. you need both. You need all saves in fact. Skip on one and your character will be that much weaker.


Completely false.

[Shade]

I have been very glad to play a human sorc with 3 tiers of wand/scorll and 20% healing amp, since I get back nearly 200 hp per scroll .. I'd really hate to be a drow in this content.

Interestingly my Drow heals for nearly the same amount as your human (190), has a ~55 concentration and 410 hp. Pretty sure 2/3 con doesn't make a huge difference endgame.

Still feels pretty squishy on epic so I tend to run my Barbarian on most things. Not so much due to the hp or healing, thats sufficient.. Just the concentration checks. Human can get +1, maybe +2.. But that wouldn't make me feel any better, I'd still fail them when stuff hits me for 80.

But on a quest where sorcs do well like wiz king, I can certainly self heal thru it without an issue. Even Raiyum has a hard time taking me down, I kited his wraiths pretty well indefinetely for over 10min without issue. Just have to cast the odd protect from elements when he gets happy with chain lightning.

Just the fun stuff like OOB/DQ2 make you wish you were a WF. 99 dmg blade barriers and 80 dmg swipes from scropions make it tough.

Still can perform very well in all of those ofcourse, just WF's quickened reconstruct advantage seems better then ever. Grouping with a WF wiz speced in enchantment allot lately.. And thats a much better setup for epic then my Drow sorc spec'd in necromancy.. He does awesome in amrath.. But immunity to death effects make his necro feats rather useless.

I may swap out to enchantment, or just make a wf sorc.. Dunno yet.

[Zenako]

Back to some of the OP's questions however.

When Wiz took Insightful Reflexes which ended up pushing her reflex into the high 20's now (28 or 29 with GH vs the old mid teens REF) and I notice a LOT of difference in how well she handles things now, with a LOT less healing needed. Huge differences in save vs not on tons of spells or effects. I see having a "Useful" REF save as being hugely important even without evasion. There are many times in quests, where so much is happening that trying to jump out of one effect just lands you in another instead.

[Sorc]

Why spend build points on something that will only help 15-20% of the time that a reflex-based effect hits you (which is hopefully rare, if you're any good it should be) when you could have something that helps you 100% of the time no matter what kind of incoming damage you may face happens to be?
Extra hit points do not help you 100% of the time. They only help when you would take enough damage to kill you if you didn't have them. So, how often does that happen? 15-20% of the time? :)

[Sorc]

I have been very glad to play a human sorc with 3 tiers of wand/scorll and 20% healing amp, since I get back nearly 200 hp per scroll .. I'd really hate to be a drow in this content.
Junts, what were your starting stats for your sorc?

[Junts]

Interestingly my Drow heals for nearly the same amount as your human (190), has a ~55 concentration and 410 hp. Pretty sure 2/3 con doesn't make a huge difference endgame.

Still feels pretty squishy on epic so I tend to run my Barbarian on most things. Not so much due to the hp or healing, thats sufficient.. Just the concentration checks. Human can get +1, maybe +2.. But that wouldn't make me feel any better, I'd still fail them when stuff hits me for 80.

But on a quest where sorcs do well like wiz king, I can certainly self heal thru it without an issue. Even Raiyum has a hard time taking me down, I kited his wraiths pretty well indefinetely for over 10min without issue. Just have to cast the odd protect from elements when he gets happy with chain lightning.

Just the fun stuff like OOB/DQ2 make you wish you were a WF. 99 dmg blade barriers and 80 dmg swipes from scropions make it tough.

Still can perform very well in all of those ofcourse, just WF's quickened reconstruct advantage seems better then ever. Grouping with a WF wiz speced in enchantment allot lately.. And thats a much better setup for epic then my Drow sorc spec'd in necromancy.. He does awesome in amrath.. But immunity to death effects make his necro feats rather useless.

I may swap out to enchantment, or just make a wf sorc.. Dunno yet.

I would concur that the difference between a human sorc with everything and a drow sorc with everything is pretty small; the difference is much larger when you deal with characters that aren't optimally equipped, and are the reasons for threads like this.

There's no real need to debate what goes on with characters who have every concievable piece of raid loot and +3 tome .. they''re all up for the task.

[Varis]

Back to some of the OP's questions however.

When Wiz took Insightful Reflexes which ended up pushing her reflex into the high 20's now (28 or 29 with GH vs the old mid teens REF) and I notice a LOT of difference in how well she handles things now, with a LOT less healing needed. Huge differences in save vs not on tons of spells or effects. I see having a "Useful" REF save as being hugely important even without evasion. There are many times in quests, where so much is happening that trying to jump out of one effect just lands you in another instead.

Yeah, people working with reflex saves notice the difference it makes. New people that look at both ends of the argument find that dex + hit points makes more sense too.

I will agree that at early levels, when resist will still pretty much absorbs all damage, just focusing on hit points is the way to go.
A high reflex save won't be as effective until high levels when spells start to hit in the 100's.

[ddoer]

fortunately, this thread hasn't turned into another general HP vs Dex debate yet.




...
I would not want to be a low con drow sorceror in this content; a 450 hp human does pretty well, competitive with and in ways better than wf casters, who rarely actually have fire/cold pushed to the max.

...

The idea that you're gonna make your reflex saves on dcs over 35 is pretty laughable, too. I find myself taking my reisstance item off in every quest except for raiyum (feeblemind sucks), since it isnt even vaguely helpful against the reflex saves that have to be made.

...

i disagree with you re: dq, while the blade save isnt that high, the reflex save dcs on damage spells are substantially higher, and you're not making them.

I have been very glad to play a human sorc with 3 tiers of wand/scorll and 20% healing amp, since I get back nearly 200 hp per scroll .. I'd really hate to be a drow in this content.


More hit points does help you stay alive through high damage spikes. My sorc has ~500 hit points, which is more than just 20 hp above your standard dex-focused sorcerer. Those extra hit points allow you to stay alive to heal yourself, or others to heal you. A higher reflex save doesn't actually help against spike damage, because it only helps 15-20% of the time. The rest of the time the reflex focused sorcerer ends up bloody paste on the floor of the dungeon.

I find it interesting you feel the damage is unavoidable, it most certainly is not.

I think:
It's not the HP or reflex save but quicken + self-repair that make WF rule the epic content. saying human caster is better than WF is quite an ignorance of the reality. WF are generally weaker in Cha and spell DC but for epic, in many cases we can nuke with firewall (and also scorching ray) and the relative weakness of WF is not exposed.
reflex save is very important for epics. after a party wipe in our first attempt for DQ2, my group worked on everyone to help them boost their reflex save. The DC of blade barrier is 31, if you completely ignore reflex save, you may get 8 or something. but every one is able to push to a more meaningful ~20 with resistance +5, dex +6/reflex +3, and GH +4. (for GH, it means we ensure anyone who got killed and rez'd will get GH immediately). Around 20 reflex save mean you can save half of the times. The more reflex the high chance of saving. And also consider one will get killed and the saving will drop when there is death penalty.
so far, my concern for high HP is mainly for wiz-king end fight. When the wiz disintegrate you at 400 damage, a 500 HP will really help a lot. (consider that you probably will not top your HP in any time) Notice that the disintegrate is, imho, avoidable with player skills. For DQ2, extra HP as buffer is always nice but i believe a higher reflex save is more important. The bb hits you at 100 a hit and your HP can't save you better than reflex save. Every point of reflex save does matter.





As for the resurfaced HP or reflex discussion... pointless.. you need both. You need all saves in fact. Skip on one and your character will be that much weaker.

Also, think beyond the current mod. We are getting more content and with that new challenges. Different areas in our defense will be tested and I can't imagine that only throwing hp's at the problem will be the permanent solution.




When Wiz took Insightful Reflexes which ended up pushing her reflex into the high 20's now (28 or 29 with GH vs the old mid teens REF) and I notice a LOT of difference in how well she handles things now, with a LOT less healing needed. Huge differences in save vs not on tons of spells or effects. I see having a "Useful" REF save as being hugely important even without evasion. There are many times in quests, where so much is happening that trying to jump out of one effect just lands you in another instead.

well said. for every mod/update, it caused some changes to my build. the epic quests require me to make quite a number of changes, including boosting every bit of reflex save *and* HP.


Interestingly my Drow heals for nearly the same amount as your human (190), has a ~55 concentration and 410 hp. Pretty sure 2/3 con doesn't make a huge difference endgame.

Still feels pretty squishy on epic so I tend to run my Barbarian on most things. Not so much due to the hp or healing, thats sufficient.. Just the concentration checks. Human can get +1, maybe +2.. But that wouldn't make me feel any better, I'd still fail them when stuff hits me for 80.

But on a quest where sorcs do well like wiz king, I can certainly self heal thru it without an issue. Even Raiyum has a hard time taking me down, I kited his wraiths pretty well indefinetely for over 10min without issue. Just have to cast the odd protect from elements when he gets happy with chain lightning.

Just the fun stuff like OOB/DQ2 make you wish you were a WF. 99 dmg blade barriers and 80 dmg swipes from scropions make it tough.

Still can perform very well in all of those ofcourse, just WF's quickened reconstruct advantage seems better then ever. Grouping with a WF wiz speced in enchantment allot lately.. And thats a much better setup for epic then my Drow sorc spec'd in necromancy.. He does awesome in amrath.. But immunity to death effects make his necro feats rather useless.

I may swap out to enchantment, or just make a wf sorc.. Dunno yet.

agree very much. My drow has very similar spec. concentration is no longer meaningful. 407 HP is still squishy but sufficient to survive. And in DQ2, WF casters are definitely more survivable than anyone. (evasion cleric is good but they are too busy to keep themselves alive)

I think enchantment is more important than necromancy, too. The fastest way to kill any non-undead/non-named I use is Energy Drain + Mass Hold Monster + Melee DPS.

And thanks for the comment with epic context. It's much more useful than generic HP vs Reflex save argument.




I would concur that the difference between a human sorc with everything and a drow sorc with everything is pretty small; the difference is much larger when you deal with characters that aren't optimally equipped, and are the reasons for threads like this.

There's no real need to debate what goes on with characters who have every concievable piece of raid loot and +3 tome .. they''re all up for the task.

afaik, Human vs Drow in HP:
40 - for Con 18 vs Con 14
10 - Racial Toughness level 3
==
50

I believe the majority of cap'd toons do not have every conceivable piece of raid loot and +3 tome, so if the opposite of your statement works, there is a need for debate.

[bobbryan2]

You guys know there's a protection from energy spell, right? And fireshield, and resist energy?

When you can block the first 120 incoming points, and then reup afterwards... why, exactly, do you need to make the save?

Sure, 15% of the time you'll fail as opposed to the 16 dex drow... but then, you just cast protection from energy, and you're right back in the game. Sorcs have far too many defensive spells to worry about saves from base stats. It's just not an issue.

[ddoer]

You guys know there's a protection from energy spell, right? And fireshield, and resist energy?

When you can block the first 120 incoming points, and then reup afterwards... why, exactly, do you need to make the save?

Sure, 15% of the time you'll fail as opposed to the 16 dex drow... but then, you just cast protection from energy, and you're right back in the game. Sorcs have far too many defensive spells to worry about saves from base stats. It's just not an issue.

so, do you know you can't protect yourself against blade barriers? e.g. in DQ2, OOB bridge etc.

this thread is about epic, not another generic discussion of reflex and hp.

[Aspenor]

so, do you know you can't protect yourself against blade barriers? e.g. in DQ2, OOB bridge etc.

this thread is about epic, not another generic discussion of reflex and hp.

Sure you can, it's called "using your directional movement keys."

[ddoer]

Sure you can, it's called "using your directional movement keys."

nice. it would be great if you provide a video tutorial. after I have learnt your skills, I could drop the toughness feat as HP is not that necessary anymore, and I don't need reflex save either, and perhaps I could fight naked so in case i accidentally fall into the lava, it costs less to repair.

p.s. I just read from another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2544517&postcount=275) about a term from the urbandictionary.

[Aspenor]

No need, you're on my server, right? Look me up, if you really want to. It's hard being right, sometimes, and people resent you for it, trying to prop up their shame with links to the definitions of internet insults....

[bobbryan2]

so, do you know you can't protect yourself against blade barriers? e.g. in DQ2, OOB bridge etc.

this thread is about epic, not another generic discussion of reflex and hp.

If we're truly talking about epic, and not your own attempts to justify questionable build design... then

I only really remember blade barriers in offering of blood, where they can be avoided or dispelled, and in DQ2, where you're generally in a group getting mass healed.

I'm not really seeing the problem here.

[ddoer]

If we're truly talking about epic, and not your own attempts to justify questionable build design... then

I only really remember blade barriers in offering of blood, where they can be avoided or dispelled, and in DQ2, where you're generally in a group getting mass healed.

I'm not really seeing the problem here.

with your logic and strategy, the 500 HP sorcs by Junts and Asp are your questionable build. why you need 500 HP when you are generally in a group getting mass healed?

[bobbryan2]

with your logic and strategy, the 500 HP sorcs by Junts and Asp are your questionable build. why you need 500 HP when you are generally in a group getting mass healed?

Yeah, you're right.

Why would HP matter when you're constantly taking damage?

[Aspenor]

with your logic and strategy, the 500 HP sorcs by Junts and Asp are your questionable build. why you need 500 HP when you are generally in a group getting mass healed?

Simple, because you need to be alive for mass cures to work on you. Corpses don't accept cure spells.

[maddmatt70]

Simple, because you need to be alive for mass cures to work on you. Corpses don't accept cure spells.

I wonder what Mavnimo would say to all this gibberish if he were still playing. I regularly run with drow wiz and sorcs who do not seem to have much trouble keeping themselves alive. I am not sure that you need 500 hp for any of the new content especially if you have skillz. My guess is either you could stand to lose some hit points if you can upgrade other aspects of your sorc and/or maybe skillz?

[Aspenor]

I wonder what Mavnimo would say to all this gibberish if he were still playing. I regularly run with drow wiz and sorcs who do not seem to have much trouble keeping themselves alive. I am not sure that you need 500 hp for any of the new content especially if you have skillz. My guess is either you could stand to lose some hit points if you can upgrade other aspects of your sorc and/or maybe skillz?

This is not a discussion of racial preferences.

Player skill can make up for many build shortcomings. That doesn't make the build itself any better.

PS- who the heck is Mavnimo and who cares what he would say?

[bobbryan2]

Now... if tomorrow ranged touch attacks came out. And all of a sudden, to land any disintigrate, polar ray or scorching ray, you had to actually get a physics hit AND bypass touch AC...

Then you're right, the racial bonus to dex would be interesting indeed. (And ironicaly, divine power clickies would become even more needed on casters).

[maddmatt70]

This is not a discussion of racial preferences.

Player skill can make up for many build shortcomings. That doesn't make the build itself any better.

PS- who the heck is Mavnimo and who cares what he would say?

The best sorc on Khyber that I have ever run with and perhaps the best sorc you will ever come across. Think about what you are saying 500 hp I mean come on that has to be a gimped build to get it that high. My warforge sorc has 450 and that seems kind of gimped if you ask me. My warforge sorc's has 2-3 less dc then a drow caster which plays a role whenever I am ccing a mob or just casting a firewall because the mobs have a greater chance to save on me. A warforge sorc has benefits of that there is no doubt, but it also has negatives.

OP I do not agree with your spell listing. First I would not grab metoer swarm for either a warforge or for a drow/human without the robe from mindsunder. Its the people that have the robe that should grab that spell because they do great dps with the robe. Incendiary cloud? If you are trying to solo the wiz king that might make sense but otherwise? I like delayed blast fireball for the wizking especially if you do not have meteor swarm and it is a nice all purpose spell, but not sure it is a must have. Melee are the group best suited to killing the wiz king whereas the caster should kite the shadows. Halt Undead is the only one of the spells you list that I feel is a must have in Epic content.

[Aspenor]

The best sorc on Khyber that I have ever run with and perhaps the best sorc you will ever come across. Think about what you are saying 500 hp I mean come on that has to be a gimped build to get it that high. My warforge sorc has 450 and that seems kind of gimped if you ask me. My warforge sorc's has 2-3 less dc then a drow caster which plays a role whenever I am ccing a mob or just casting a firewall because the mobs have a greater chance to save on me. A warforge sorc has benefits of that there is no doubt, but it also has negatives.

OP I do not agree with your spell listing. First I would not grab metoer swarm for either a warforge or for a drow without the robe from mindsunder. Its the people that have the robe that should grab that spell because they do great dps with the robe. Incendiary cloud? If you are trying to solo the wiz king that might make sense but otherwise? I like delayed blast fireball for the wizking especially if you do not have meteor swarm and it is a nice all purpose spell, but not sure it is a must have. Melee are the group best suited to killing the wiz king whereas the caster should kite the shadows. Halt Undead is the only one of the spells you list that I feel is a must have in Epic content.

I have that many hit points on a 28 point human that is, at most, 1 DC behind the most geared-up drow out there. When I finally true reincarnate into a 34 point human, tack 20 more hit points onto that total for 517.

Your spell choices leave much to be desired, although it's clear to me that you play almost all melees and have that kind of gameplay in mind. Incendiary Cloud, Delayed Blast Fireball and Meteor Swarm are all incredibly useful. One reason why: Abbot. Second reason why: Epic Wizking. An arcane caster using disintegrate in the Abbot is making a poor choice, since many of his spells are wasted on the Abbot's mantle.

It seems pretty clear that you're not even speaking from experience in the first place.

[maddmatt70]

I have that many hit points on a 28 point human that is, at most, 1 DC behind the most geared-up drow out there. When I finally true reincarnate into a 34 point human, tack 20 more hit points onto that total for 517.

Your spell choices leave much to be desired, although it's clear to me that you play almost all melees and have that kind of gameplay in mind. Incendiary Cloud, Delayed Blast Fireball and Meteor Swarm are all incredibly useful. One reason why: Abbot. Second reason why: Epic Wizking. An arcane caster using disintegrate in the Abbot is making a poor choice, since many of his spells are wasted on the Abbot's mantle.

It seems pretty clear that you're not even speaking from experience in the first place.

The OP said what spells are useful for Epic and said nothing about the abbot. My answer to the OP was unless you are soloing the wiz king these spells are not really useful because melee are better equipped to dps the wiz king whereas, casters are better equipped to kite shadows.

[Aspenor]

The OP said what spells are useful for Epic and said nothing about the abbot. My answer to the OP was unless you are soloing the wiz king these spells are not really useful because melee are better equipped to dps the wiz king whereas, casters are better equipped to kite shadows.

A properly equipped and played caster does both.

[Strakeln]

Your spell choices leave much to be desired, although it's clear to me that you play almost all melees and have that kind of gameplay in mind. Incendiary Cloud, Delayed Blast Fireball and Meteor Swarm are all incredibly useful. One reason why: Abbot. Second reason why: Epic Wizking. An arcane caster using disintegrate in the Abbot is making a poor choice, since many of his spells are wasted on the Abbot's mantle.
I wouldn't make any spell choices based on the Abbot. His mantle bug can apply to DBF as well, even an indirect hit. Incendiary cloud makes no sense for the Abbot, whatever paltry damage it does to him is meaningless when everyone not casting or in melee are tossing boulders @ 200 a pop.

[Monkey_Archer]

I wouldn't make any spell choices based on the Abbot. His mantle bug can apply to DBF as well, even an indirect hit. Incendiary cloud makes no sense for the Abbot, whatever paltry damage it does to him is meaningless when everyone not casting or in melee are tossing boulders @ 200 a pop.

Agreed. Firewall the spawns... use that dex to toss meteors :D

[Aspenor]

I wouldn't make any spell choices based on the Abbot. His mantle bug can apply to DBF as well, even an indirect hit. Incendiary cloud makes no sense for the Abbot, whatever paltry damage it does to him is meaningless when everyone not casting or in melee are tossing boulders @ 200 a pop.

This is completely irrelevant. A sorcerer should never stop casting at the Abbot. Incendiary cloud may do relatively little damage, but it is a damage over time effect that will take off a couple thousand hit points by the time the raid is over. Not a single DBF has ever failed for me. I hit an Incendiary Cloud if he moves out of one, and spam DBF. Your 200 a pop boulder is paltry when a sorcerer his dealing, on average, 600 damage per second.

[Monkey_Archer]

This is completely irrelevant. A sorcerer should never stop casting at the Abbot. Incendiary cloud may do relatively little damage, but it is a damage over time effect that will take off a couple thousand hit points by the time the raid is over. Not a single DBF has ever failed for me. I hit an Incendiary Cloud if he moves out of one, and spam DBF. Your 200 a pop boulder is paltry when a sorcerer his dealing, on average, 600 damage per second.

yeah... 200 damage on a .5 second cooldown is way less damage then < 600 on a 2 second cooldown...

[Aspenor]

yeah... 200 damage on a .5 second cooldown is way less damage then < 600 on a 2 second cooldown...

and spell crits for 1800, and incendiary cloud ticking down.....

throwing boulders cannot remotely touch a well played sorcerer's damage output, and FWIW, it takes longer than half a second to throw another boulder.

[Strakeln]

Meh... I just figure there's more efficient uses of your time. Casting IC means you're not swapping between DBF/MS/Disintegrate. That pretty much goes along with your "600 DPS" point. While I wouldn't recommend a sorc toss boulders, in this case, you'd be better off tossing a boulder or two instead of casting IC.

[Maegin]

*popcorn*

Interesting views.

[Aspenor]

Meh... I just figure there's more efficient uses of your time. Casting IC means you're not swapping between DBF/MS/Disintegrate. That pretty much goes along with your "600 DPS" point. While I wouldn't recommend a sorc toss boulders, in this case, you'd be better off tossing a boulder or two instead of casting IC.

Not true, at all. The added ticks of damage more than make up for your lost time where you could have tossed a boulder (which i am still finding hilarious, boulders.....the only class I can see this being a good idea for is a rogue). You underestimate the compounding damage effect of the IC over time.

It takes all of 2 or so to cast IC, and over time it will put out somewhere around 1000 damage. Throwing boulders will do maybe, and I'm being generous, 500 damage in 2 seconds but has no DOT. The benefits of casting IC are backward-loaded, but they outweigh throwing boulders by a significant margin.

[Juggle]

I read so many of these threads but all I ever really hear is "wah wah wah" Everyone always has something to complain about, whether that be a quest being too easy, or too hard. DDO players never seem to be satisfied. Epic quests are just like anything else that's new to the community. Remember when the Shroud came out and many people thought it was impossible? And two clerics were REQUIRED sometimes three, and if you wanted to get into a VOD. on sarlona at least, you had to be ready with 2 major pot donations to even get in. Turbine releases new content, we find a way to make the quest, which was hard at first, a routine, then complain about no new content. And I can't count on 5 hands the amount of threads I read about people complaining about the difficulty of The Abbot. The Abbot is fun and easy, just people are too impatient to learn it and just complain that it requires some keyboard skills rather than soley clicking a mouse and drinking a pot. These types of things like EPIC quests and Abbot are something for the player-base to work on, something challenging and exciting that will keep us working and keep us busy. Yeah, epic quests requires epic players. Players that can adjust their toon accordingly and figure out efficient ways to accomplish something challenging, whether that means making yourself a shroud HP item for more survivability, or exchanging a feat or two out for toughness. And I don't bother reading long replies so I don't blame you if you don't want to read mine haha.

[Maegin]

I read so many of these threads but all I ever really hear is "wah wah wah" Everyone always has something to complain about, whether that be a quest being too easy, or too hard. DDO players never seem to be satisfied. Epic quests are just like anything else that's new to the community. Remember when the Shroud came out and many people thought it was impossible? And two clerics were REQUIRED sometimes three, and if you wanted to get into a VOD. on sarlona at least, you had to be ready with 2 major pot donations to even get in. Turbine releases new content, we find a way to make the quest, which was hard at first, a routine, then complain about no new content. And I can't count on 5 hands the amount of threads I read about people complaining about the difficulty of The Abbot. The Abbot is fun and easy, just people are too impatient to learn it and just complain that it requires some keyboard skills rather than soley clicking a mouse and drinking a pot. These types of things like EPIC quests and Abbot are something for the player-base to work on, something challenging and exciting that will keep us working and keep us busy. Yeah, epic quests requires epic players. Players that can adjust their toon accordingly and figure out efficient ways to accomplish something challenging, whether that means making yourself a shroud HP item for more survivability, or exchanging a feat or two out for toughness. And I don't bother reading long replies so I don't blame you if you don't want to read mine haha.

Wall of text hits you for 2,605 ponts of damage.

lol

But, if you actually read, they have some interesting points, and its fun to see where its going and opinions :p

[Monkey_Archer]

and spell crits for 1800, and incendiary cloud ticking down.....

throwing boulders cannot remotely touch a well played sorcerer's damage output, and FWIW, it takes longer than half a second to throw another boulder.

The biggest difference being that boulders dont cost sp...

Even assuming the abbot fails every save, spamming DBF only does about 2x the dps of boulders...

You need a pretty high dps group to make going through all your sp in 1 minute be considered "well played"... not that it never happens that way of course...

[Junts]

The biggest difference being that boulders dont cost sp...

Even assuming the abbot fails every save, spamming DBF only does about 2x the dps of boulders...

You need a pretty high dps group to make going through all your sp in 1 minute be considered "well played"... not that it never happens that way of course...


I alternate dbf/disintegrate (some meteors now, but they aren't really more reliable dps yet since I don't yet have one of those silly regalias) on the abbot, and rarely manage to blow through my whole bar before we kill the guy. He doesnt have that much hp, and most groups have the d ps to kill him in less than 2 minutes.

If you're having issues with sp in the abbot at lv 20, its probably because you're short manning or running in a group where people are inadequately equipped, a lot of them are in the water, or with an excessive amount of non-dpsing bards and clerics.

I used to use a pot or two alternating exactly the same dps combination back at 16 before we'd kill him, but dps output is so much higher now that I don't have that opportunity despite having 500 more sp .. I end most abbots with sp remaining, and I do everything I can to get rid of spell points as fast as possible (hence even casting meteor swarm, which isnt yet a better sp/damgae ratio than dbf or disintegrate, without a regalia).

[Monkey_Archer]

its Probably Because You're Short Manning Or Running In A Group Where People Are Inadequately Equipped

Perhaps... ;)

[Strakeln]

Not true, at all. The added ticks of damage more than make up for your lost time where you could have tossed a boulder (which i am still finding hilarious, boulders.....the only class I can see this being a good idea for is a rogue). You underestimate the compounding damage effect of the IC over time.

It takes all of 2 or so to cast IC, and over time it will put out somewhere around 1000 damage. Throwing boulders will do maybe, and I'm being generous, 500 damage in 2 seconds but has no DOT. The benefits of casting IC are backward-loaded, but they outweigh throwing boulders by a significant margin.

Okay, you keep on telling yourself IC is a better choice to cast instead of two other damage spells... eventually it will come true! :rolleyes:

[Junts]

Okay, you keep on telling yourself IC is a better choice to cast instead of two other damage spells... eventually it will come true! :rolleyes:


a single ic cast on him in theory would do more damage, but it would be very limited by teleport frequency; after about 25-30 seconds of sitting in the cloud, it will have done more damage than a single dbf.

The problem is, hes almost never in one place for that long anymore .. prior to mod9, it was definitely a better idea to cast that spell.

[Strakeln]

a single ic cast on him in theory would do more damage, but it would be very limited by teleport frequency; after about 25-30 seconds of sitting in the cloud, it will have done more damage than a single dbf.

The problem is, hes almost never in one place for that long anymore .. prior to mod9, it was definitely a better idea to cast that spell.
Per his numbers and "compounding" :rolleyes: damage, one IC will do 1000 dmg.

In the 2 second cast time, you could cast two spells, due to the 1 second global timer. Pick two out of three (MS/DBF/Disintegrate) and cast them. You know the numbers for each of these three spells, what damage would that result in?

~1400 > 1000, end of story. Without factoring in crits, of course.

And that's not even getting into multiple casts of IC...

[Aspenor]

Per his numbers and "compounding" :rolleyes: damage, one IC will do 1000 dmg.

In the 2 second cast time, you could cast two spells, due to the 1 second global timer. Pick two out of three (MS/DBF/Disintegrate) and cast them. You know the numbers for each of these three spells, what damage would that result in?

~1400 > 1000, end of story. Without factoring in crits, of course.

And that's not even getting into multiple casts of IC...

Well at least you've stopped talking nonsense about throwing boulders. That was classic, I was having some great laughs.

You keep telling yourself that IC is a bad idea, and I'll keep killing the Abbot while you throw asteroids, deal? Considering it's pretty clear you've never even tried using the tactic, I find it a bit questionable that you'd have any clue how useful it is.

[Aspenor]

a single ic cast on him in theory would do more damage, but it would be very limited by teleport frequency; after about 25-30 seconds of sitting in the cloud, it will have done more damage than a single dbf.

The problem is, hes almost never in one place for that long anymore .. prior to mod9, it was definitely a better idea to cast that spell.

I don't see him teleporting more than twice in a fight. Often he teleports right back into the first cloud I cast.

[Junts]

I don't see him teleporting more than twice in a fight. Often he teleports right back into the first cloud I cast.


Ahh my experience is that he teleports about once every 15 seconds or so, and I expect 4-5 per fight in the 90 sec or so it takes to take him down.

[Strakeln]

Well at least you've stopped talking nonsense about throwing boulders. That was classic, I was having some great laughs.

You keep telling yourself that IC is a bad idea, and I'll keep killing the Abbot while you throw asteroids, deal? Considering it's pretty clear you've never even tried using the tactic, I find it a bit questionable that you'd have any clue how useful it is.
I think you need to take a deep breath and read what I wrote regarding boulders a little closer ;)

[Strakeln]

Ahh my experience is that he teleports about once every 15 seconds or so, and I expect 4-5 per fight in the 90 sec or so it takes to take him down.
Same here, and occasionally he's been walking around as of late. Maybe 1 out of every 10 runs, he's walking - not teleporting - all over the place. It's a bit disconcerting to see him walk.

[Zenako]

Same here, and occasionally he's been walking around as of late. Maybe 1 out of every 10 runs, he's walking - not teleporting - all over the place. It's a bit disconcerting to see him walk.

He's just messing with your mind....:D:eek: planting that little seed of doubt about what he might do next....

[Junts]

Same here, and occasionally he's been walking around as of late. Maybe 1 out of every 10 runs, he's walking - not teleporting - all over the place. It's a bit disconcerting to see him walk.

Ive had thatp roblem more as people have started thinking its funny to whack him with rahls might or something

[Talon_Moonshadow]

/sigh

My foundest wish in DDO is that someday players wil come up with an answer for increased challenges that does not involve having more HP. :(

[Ladywolf]

But it's fun to throw boulders at him! Pffft I'll cast my boring spells when I have no sticks and stones to break bones:D