Is DDO 'Free to play' actually just Crippleware?

[kelsjet]

After reading the massive thread in this forum, I was surprised by the amount of people who are unfamiliar with what DDO's F2P option is.
So I decided to find out in a short and simple thread.

Is DDO 'free to play' actually just crippleware?

For the less tech savvy, crippleware is a type of software that has much of its functionality purposely removed and/or prevented with the express goal of getting the user to pay for the removed functionality (quick wiki on crippleware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware)). In a simple example, its like getting a calculator which has had its multiplication, division and subtraction buttons removed (leaving only addition), but giving you the option to use these removed buttons by purchasing them on a per button and per calculation basis.

Such software is usually given away for free and is not the same thing as 'shareware' software or 'trial version' software, since crippleware's express goal is to get the user to pay for regulated functionality (in DDO's terms, things like quests/dungeons/mobs/levels etc) rather than just allowing the user to sample the software (which is the common practice for things like shareware and trial software).
On the whole though, the negative connotations that are attached to crippleware, exist due to the somewhat obvious fact that one of the core ideas that makes crippleware work is that it must "fool" the user into thinking that he has access to the full software, whereas trial software and shareware make it abundantly clear to the user that he is using a limited product.

My answer? F2P is most definitely crippleware.
Now, the fact that you could, given infinite time and patience, still reach max level in DDO, it is not realistic (similar to how it is *possible* to do every multiplication calculation on a calculator using just the addition button, but any sane person would not do so).


So what do you all think? Is DDO's "Unlimited Free!" just another crippleware ploy?

[Impaqt]

Wait....

you mean Turbine wants people to actually Subscribe to the game? They aren't Charity Organization thats producing entertainment out of the goodness of their hearts?

**** them!

All this time...

[Lithic]

Gotta love how "free" is not "Free enough".

OP must be the type that when he finds a quarter on the sidewalk, shakes his fist up at the sky and says "Hey GOD, you bastard! Wheres the other 75cents!"

[Noctus]

Functions are all in in F2P. Only leveling is harder (sigils) and high level dungeons are not unlocked in the beginning, but require manually unlocking with earned turbine points.




If you dont mind the grind, you can experience the whole game without ever paying a dime.

So it is not Crippleware.

I rest my case.

[Vanda]

What looks to be a free lunch is not really 'free' and requires effort and work? Shocking. Call the outraged internet blogging society.

[hydra_ex]

After reading the massive thread in this forum, I was surprised by the amount of people who are unfamiliar with what DDO's F2P option is.
So I decided to find out in a short and simple thread.

Is DDO 'free to play' actually just crippleware?

For the less tech savvy, crippleware is a type of software that has much of its functionality purposely removed and/or prevented with the express goal of getting the user to pay for the removed functionality (quick wiki on crippleware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware)). In a simple example, its like getting a calculator which has had its multiplication, division and subtraction buttons removed (leaving only addition), but giving you the option to use these removed buttons by purchasing them on a per button and per calculation basis.

Such software is usually given away for free and is not the same thing as 'shareware' software or 'trial version' software, since crippleware's express goal is to get the user to pay for regulated functionality (in DDO's terms, things like quests/dungeons/mobs/levels etc) rather than just allowing the user to sample the software (which is the common practice for things like shareware and trial software).
On the whole though, the negative connotations that are attached to crippleware, exist due to the somewhat obvious fact that one of the core ideas that makes crippleware work is that it must "fool" the user into thinking that he has access to the full software, whereas trial software and shareware make it abundantly clear to the user that he is using a limited product.

My answer? F2P is most definitely crippleware.
Now, the fact that you could, given infinite time and patience, still reach max level in DDO, it is not realistic (similar to how it is *possible* to do every multiplication calculation on a calculator using just the addition button, but any sane person would not do so).


So what do you all think? Is DDO's "Unlimited Free!" just another crippleware ploy?

I agree, it is very misleading, but definitely not crippleware. Read more carefully. They advertise unlimited free to play, not unlimited free content.

If, in your calculator example, instead of advertising a calculator, they advertised "unlimited free number computation", it would be a better statement about F2P DDO. It does not advertise itself as a calculator, just a calculator using which it was free to do computations (in this case, addition).

It may be a cheap tactic, but, you still get good, free, fun out of the game, and in the end, isn't that what really matters?

[DeadHealer]

There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

How much can you get for free?

42(%)

Hooray for references.

[Freeman]

Would you mind pointing out exactly what functionality has been disabled for you? Unless they prevent F2P players from setting their clients to the highest graphics settings, or disable shield-blocking and jumping for them, I don't think the term "Crippleware" can be applied here. In the page you linked, all the terms refer to capabilities or functions that are disabled. If you care to reference something that restricts content and is still considered Crippleware, I'll take a look at that. Otherwise, you can make the argument that ITunes is Crippleware, since they give you the software for free with the expectation that you'll use it to purchase music from their store.

[totmacher]

that's a fairly loose definition of crippleware. i smells a troll

[ShrewMage]

that's a fairly loose definition of crippleware. i smells a troll

Indeed, perhaps it's better defined as partial showing nipple ware!

[transtemporal]

I get everything in the game for free and I'm on F2P. In fact, Turbine gives me money for playing. My happiness is paramount to turbine. :rolleyes:

[Trusty]

CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU ARE A WINNER

As the 1,000,000th MMO Forum poster to state that all online games should be completely free and easy to win you will receive lifetime permission to play single player games. Oh, sorry, can't do that. They cost money too.

[kelsjet]

Would you mind pointing out exactly what functionality has been disabled for you?

This would be easy to construe given that we could be at an impasse on what the definition of 'functionality' is. For me (and by looking at a few other posters on this forum) preventing access to a dungeon, to certain quests and/or mobs as well as certain levels is a case of disabled functionality, especially since the product claims to let me "Explore the world of DDO".
Someone else can state that their definition of functionality is "prevents/allows me to play at AxB resolution", but they would most probably be in the minority. After all, we play MMOs to explore worlds, not to check out graphics engines at specific resolutions.


Otherwise, you can make the argument that ITunes is Crippleware, since they give you the software for free with the expectation that you'll use it to purchase music from their store.
This is not an entirely accurate analogy, since iTunes is, and always has, presented itself as a music playing software (i.e. it clearly distinguishes itself as a just a mechanism to access and play content), whereas MMOs (including DDO) present themselves as an online experience. Furthermore, there is no express expectation that you will buy software from iTunes themselves (due to the fact that you can play music in iTunes that you did not buy from the store).
Forcing the analogy, to make iTunes fit in the DDO mold would be true if iTunes stated "Free, Unlimited Music!", then proceeded to give you ~1/3 of its iTunes store music for free, after which point it forces you to pay for the rest as well as preventing you form listening to music that was not bought from the iStore.
The nuance is in the presentation, as well as the intent.

Overall, I am less interested in casting judgement, whether good or bad, on what DDO's F2P is. From the looks of it a lot of people are having knee jerk reactions to my original post (most probably due to the bad connotation attached to the word "crippleware"). I would ask these folks to calm down and approach the discussion as just an exploration.
My only quandary with the F2P option is in its presentation, which, as a few posters have also mentioned, is a bit misleading. After all, if DDO F2P was in fact accurately presented as "just a content player and not the actual content" (as the iTunes model), then there wouldn't be so many people on these forums totally confused as to how the game they thought was free is actually (read: sensibly) not really free.

And lastly, to all the others who are relating my post to "beggar want's a free ride" syndrome, I fear you have missed the point of this topic. I am not here to 'troll' or 'vent' or any such silly thing. Instead I am trying to ascertain why there is so much confusion surrounding something which seems pretty straightforward. And after looking around, I find that the source of the confusion is the way the F2P option is being presented to the users in a somewhat misleading and disingenuous way.
I understand Turbine needs to make money. I also understand that many other MMO companies *do* make money without having to resort to tricking their users with 'crippleware-ish' tactics.

[Ystradmynach]

Did anyone really expect that every bit of content Turbine produced would be freely available to everyone without paying a cent or doing any work? Really? How exactly is Turbine suppose to make money then? Advertisements?

I think the only people 'fooled' by Turbine's advertising are fools who read into it what they want instead of what it says. As it is, free to play is a more accurate description of DDO then what I expected it to be, especially since you can theoretically grind and eventually unlock all the content without paying a cent if you had nothing better to do.

Now if you want deceptive advertisement, you should check out the Evony ads that use sex to sell a rather drab civilization game that has nothing to do with sex.

[Krag]

This thread reminds me of another "100% free" MMORPG where theoretically you could level up to the cap without paying a penny. There were no level sigils to purchase/grind, no adventure packs to buy, no extra races. Technically it was even more "free" than DDO. However there was a monthly fee that DOUBLED loot and exp rates and all mid- and highlevels ended up paying it. Unlike DDO all of them got to pay because without boost there was no realistic way to earn money to cover the most basic expenses like healing. Oh, and I forgot to mention all the unique equipment they sold in the "store".

They can state any nonsense whilst staying technically correct.

[ShrewMage]

Not really sure how it's confusing. You can obtain the game freely, and play it without limitations to the amount of time you are allotted to spend playing the game. Once you reach the point where you have expended the content you can access, you have a choice of whether or not you want to buy the remaining content. By no means is it 100% free, but can be obtained without spending real $$ if you want to spend the time.

[Fenrisulven6]

I find that the source of the confusion is the way the F2P option is being presented to the users in a somewhat misleading and disingenuous way.

No. If there is any fault with Turbine's ads, its in wrongly assuming their audience had values. Something beyond "I want it now and I want it all for nothing".

I've recently downgraded from sub to f2p. The idea that f2p is "crippleware" is ridiculous.

[Aumvaar]

In a simple example, its like getting a calculator which has had its multiplication, division and subtraction buttons removed

If I were to download DDO & discover, after creating my F2P account, that I couldn't actually fight anything, cast any spells, or do any of the quests without paying for the game .... yea, that would be crippleware.

However, none of those things are true, because what you are identifying as "missing functionality" is, in reality, additional content which you can purchase to enhance your DDO experience. Think of the additional content as similar to IPhone apps, if you like -- not having them doesn't cripple your IPhone's ability to function, but having them arguably enhances your IPhone experience.

Thus, your argument fails.

[Pwesiela]

This is not an entirely accurate analogy, since iTunes is, and always has, presented itself as a music playing software (i.e. it clearly distinguishes itself as a just a mechanism to access and play content), whereas MMOs (including DDO) present themselves as an online experience. Furthermore, there is no express expectation that you will buy software from iTunes themselves (due to the fact that you can play music in iTunes that you did not buy from the store).
Forcing the analogy, to make iTunes fit in the DDO mold would be true if iTunes stated "Free, Unlimited Music!", then proceeded to give you ~1/3 of its iTunes store music for free, after which point it forces you to pay for the rest as well as preventing you form listening to music that was not bought from the iStore.
The nuance is in the presentation, as well as the intent.

I'd wager that the total amount of music that you put in your iTunes folders is far less than 1/3 of the music that is available through the iTunes store. In fact, iTunes does offer "free musical experience." You put in what music you want and you can use the player to your hearts content. In fact, Apple will even update your iTunes player to a newer version FOR FREE! Should you wish to expand your horizons, iTunes offers its "Genius" feature, which recommends new songs based on what you've put in yourself. If you want, you can listen to 30 seconds of these songs and decide if you want to actually purchase them through the iTunes store or via your local entertainment market. In fact, iTunes prevents you from listening to the full songs that you haven't purchased from the store or placed in the library yourself.

The nuance is that you're wanting unlimited dungeon content, which is not what Turbine advertises.

The nuance is that you'd want unlimited free music from iTunes, which is not what Apple advertises.

[kelsjet]

They can state any nonsense whilst staying technically correct.
This is a fantastically accurate statement.


If I were to download DDO & discover, after creating my F2P account, that I couldn't actually fight anything, cast any spells, or do any of the quests without paying for the game .... yea, that would be crippleware.

However, none of those things are true, because what you are identifying as "missing functionality" is, in reality, additional content which you can purchase to enhance your DDO experience. Think of the additional content as similar to IPhone apps, if you like -- not having them doesn't cripple your IPhone's ability to function, but having them arguably enhances your IPhone experience.

Thus, your argument fails.
Not really, you could fail to understand my analogy, or my analogy could have failed to express a nuance, but you cannot refute an argument by negating an analogy (especially if you missed the emphasis of the analogy and then proceeded to create a whole new one of your own :D )

Yes, we can create arbritrary analogies and construe them to prove a point (pretty much any point), but arguing solely by analogy is always weak. I use analogies to help express a subtle point. I do not argue solely via analogy, and I suggest you shouldn't either :)

[leadhead]

No...

Now if they let you do the quest in the first place and then when you accomplished the last item to complete the quest a window pops up and says "You may recieve the experience points and quest items due to quest completion with the "Payed" version" "Click this link to purchase now"

That would be an example of crippleware.

Us VIPs are playing the "Professional" version and you are playing the "Basic" version.

[Minor_Threat]

As always, I like to contribute something intelligent.
Wheel of fish. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx_UJxuQGXo)

[burkoJames]

I will repeat the least knee-jerking of the comments. DDO is Free to PLAY

As an example I want to bring up Guild Wars (not an analogy, this is an apples to apples example). Guild Wars is F2P. So are all offline games, but Guild Wars is an MMO. In Guild Wars, you bought content packs and then played that content for free, on the companies servers.

Sound familier? DDO just also happens to offer free content as well. And a significant amount of it. In fact, I have 2 content packs and the monk class, and while I have paid for TP, it did not go to any of the items I just listed.

Free to Play is not free content. I understood that terminology, as I have been hearing it for years. It is slightly misleading, I admit. However it is industry standard terminology (I know plenty of korean F2P MMOs that hide content behind purchases as well).

Turbine did not cripple this game to entice you to play it. In fact they did the opposite. They opened up a significant portion of the content for free, lowered the play cost of that content to free, and kept some of the game back as additional pay-for content that can either be picked up ala-carte (F2P/Premium w/TP) or rent all the content for a monthly fee with the opertunity to buy content (P2P, can buy with monthly points).

Remember, this game was around BEFORE the F2P shift. Quote from wikipedia: "Crippleware programs are usually freeware versions of computer programs that lack the most advanced (or in some cases, even crucial) features of the original program." I believe that by this definition you can see this game two ways. Both are independent of whether the game is free to play (it is).

A)The Extra content is an advanced feature of the game, therefore crippleware.
The problem with this philosophy is that means Blizzard turns WOW into crippleware everytime it releases a new expansion. Because now your game has content that is held off from your access, you cant enter northrend without WOLK. This I believe is wrong

B)The Extra Content is not a feature of the game, mearly an add-on to the expereince, and therefore not Crippleware
This is my stance and the stance of most others. The content you dont have access to is an add-on, and you only have to pay to own the content, not to play it as well.

I am interested to hear your responce.

[Kerplunk]

Nice. Now we have four of these threads on the front page alone.
What I don't get is what these threads are meant to accomplish. You think if you ***** and moan enough, Turbine will take pity on you and say
"Screw these guys that have been paying us for the last 3 years, this guy gets to have everything he wants. We should pay him a steady salary on top of it. Hell, he should have his own country, too. Somewhere nice and sunny, where the chicks outnumber guys 10-1 and only go topless :)"

Look, if you like the game, awesome. Play it enough, make some friends, you'll probably want to throw the devs a few bucks as well.
If you don't like it, noone is keeping you here or forcing you to play.
You can leave.
Please.

[Aumvaar]

Not really, you could fail to understand my analogy

Arguments by analogy are only valid if the analogy is valid. Yours, as I clearly demonstrated, is not -- therefore, the argument itself is invalid.

[Doomcrew]

Forcing the analogy, to make iTunes fit in the DDO mold would be true if iTunes stated "Free, Unlimited Music!", then proceeded to give you ~1/3 of its iTunes store music for free, after which point it forces you to pay for the rest as well as preventing you form listening to music that was not bought from the iStore.


Actually if using this analogy, the slogan would be "iTunes, Free Unlimited Listening", as we can always listen to those
same songs, over and over. Unlimited Free Play, means exactly that, play for free. Some of us have paid significant
amounts for, .... wait for it....zero content. When the mods are a year apart, we VIP's are still paying. Explore the
world of DDO, did it say the entire world? Nit pick if you like, but if you were in game, grinding, there'd be 1 less pack
to purchase.

Cheers

[kelsjet]

The nuance is that you're wanting unlimited dungeon content, which is not what Turbine advertises.


This is a great comment (since it is going to constructively move the conversation forward).

The idea boils down to expectations, and whether the expectations being set by Turbine match the expectations of a new user.

I would hypothesize that the initial expectation that a new player has is, in fact, that a MMO claiming, and I quote, "Free, unlimited play" will not have any monetary requirements attached (for example, many other MMOs claim the exact same thing and are *actually* free, read: Guild Wars). I would support this hypothesis by proposing to the great number of players on this free forum (as well as the many in game) who are surprised (whether pleasantly or disgustingly) that there is a whole mass (2/3rds) of content that they in fact cannot relistically access without some form of financial transaction.
After all, if they were totally clear that they will not have unrestricted dungeon access (from a monetary perspective) then they wouldn't be surprised, would they?

Hence, the table turns onto what Turbine is advertising, which is part of my original point. That for some reason or another, their marketing campaign is not making clear the nature of DDOs payment model. I would be perfectly happy if at the initial website splash screen it is made clear to a new user that this game is not actually "totally free" but in fact has a solid content purchase schema in place. But it does not.

I think it would be unfair to ask a totally new user to automatically not associate the terms "Unlimited" and "free" as being an MMO where dungeon access is unrestricted (monetarily). Especially since there is already an existing precedence in the MMO space (Guild Wars) of MMOs claiming to be "Unlimited and Free" and actually delivering on that by having all content being unrestricted and actually, free.
Thus putting the ball squarely in Turbines court, and questioning why is it so hard for them to clarify, without a shadow of a doubt, that their 'free, unlimited play' does not actually include all the game content? (i.e. something like "Free, unlimited play... for the first 10 levels").

Which is where the core is at this point.

[burkoJames]

I would suggest reading my above post, http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2530558&postcount=23, Which notes costs associated with guild wars content.

Having read the original post again, it comes to mind that DDO was VERY forthright about the VIPs gettinng more content.

According to the original post:
"...one of the core ideas that makes crippleware work is that it must "fool" the user into thinking that he has access to the full software"

On the front page there is a nice button inviting you to become a VIP, and if you click lets you know that F2P players dont get all the content. As well, all the adverts about Content (advertising Premium content obviously) on the site mention FREE TO VIPS! suggesting that some people wont get it free. So by your own definition, not crippleware.

[Aumvaar]

The idea boils down to expectations, and whether the expectations being set by Turbine match the expectations of a new user

They do, for those people who actually bothered to read something about the game before they began playing it.

For those who didn't make that very small modicum of effort ... well, you're probably not surprised that I've no sympathy for them.

[kelsjet]

I would suggest reading my above post, http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2530558&postcount=23, Which notes costs associated with guild wars.


:) indeed, sorry I was responding to the other post before yours. Your point is somewhat valid, however falls into the category I described on the previous page (that being on 'how we define functionality').

With a direct guild wars and DDO comparison, what you are essentially doing is drawing the line of "content restriction" in an inconsistent way. In Guild Wars, there is absolutely nothing preventing you (including intense grind) getting to 'max level'. In fact, you could actually start the game at max level! Hence, you are drawing the line of guild wars at "when I run out of content can I buy more? yes, hence it is the same as DDO".

Infact, DDO is different, since, you are actually majorly hindered even before you get to max level itself. Mind numbing (and somewhat unhealthy) grinding aside, you will be forced to pay if you wish to progress to end game in a reasonable way. Guild wars does not have this.

Similarly, I can draw another line, in WoW this time, and say "since I got to max level and now wont get a new dungeon till the next expansion, means WoW is the same as DDO". But in all 3 examples, the inconsistent thing is where we are drawing these lines.

To have an accurate comparison, we need to draw the lines between games consistently. In WoW, and GuildWars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent. In DDO, you cannot (not if you have a normal life that is).

EDIT: Just a quick edit, I do thank you for contributing constructively though :)

[Beld]

in that DDO:EU allows you do download the client for FREE, whereas you must pay for the original Guild Wars and subsequent expansions/updates while playing on the server for free, ie, free to play after you purchase the box.

DDO:EU did not ask for a credit card to download the client, and did not say Free to Play ALL CONTENT. Regardless of YOUR expectations, if I was not a VIP and came across this and loaded it up and found ALL the content was free forever, I would quit immediately, because there would be no reason to play long because the company would soon fold up.

Just because YOU had an expectation doesn't mean it was realistic or valid. You CAN play DDO for FREE as long as you want and if you want to GRIND for the Turbine Points, you can gain access to ALL of the content for FREE (not counting the time invested since you probably don't have a job since you expect everything for nothing, which is how EVERYTHING in life works right ?)

Argument.........EPIC FAIL!!
Analogy..........EPIC FAIL!!
Another useless whiner thread.........EPIC EPIC FAIL!!!

[leadhead]

This is a great comment (since it is going to constructively move the conversation forward).

The idea boils down to expectations, and whether the expectations being set by Turbine match the expectations of a new user.

I would hypothesize that the initial expectation that a new player has is, in fact, that a MMO claiming, and I quote, "Free, unlimited play" will not have any monetary requirements attached (for example, many other MMOs claim the exact same thing and are *actually* free, read: Guild Wars). I would support this hypothesis by proposing to the great number of players on this free forum (as well as the many in game) who are surprised (whether pleasantly or disgustingly) that there is a whole mass (2/3rds) of content that they in fact cannot relistically access without some form of financial transaction.
After all, if they were totally clear that they will not have unrestricted dungeon access (from a monetary perspective) then they wouldn't be surprised, would they?

Hence, the table turns onto what Turbine is advertising, which is part of my original point. That for some reason or another, their marketing campaign is not making clear the nature of DDOs payment model. I would be perfectly happy if at the initial website splash screen it is made clear to a new user that this game is not actually "totally free" but in fact has a solid content purchase schema in place. But it does not.

I think it would be unfair to ask a totally new user to automatically not associate the terms "Unlimited" and "free" as being an MMO where dungeon access is unrestricted (monetarily). Especially since there is already an existing precedence in the MMO space (Guild Wars) of MMOs claiming to be "Unlimited and Free" and actually delivering on that by having all content being unrestricted and actually, free.
Thus putting the ball squarely in Turbines court, and questioning why is it so hard for them to clarify, without a shadow of a doubt, that their 'free, unlimited play' does not actually include all the game content? (i.e. something like "Free, unlimited play... for the first 10 levels").

Which is where the core is at this point.

That is because it is Guild Wars! I can acquire windows 98...the whole thing for free, but nobody cares....of course what games come after that?

[Aumvaar]

In WoW, and GuildWars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent

You mean, "In WoW, & Guild Wars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent additional."

Obviously you meant that, because you must pay for the initial Guild Wars client, & of course with WoW you have not only the client to buy but also a monthly subscription fee.

Of course, neither client fee nor subscription fee apply to DDO, so I'm kinda lost as to your point.

[Minor_Threat]

Another useless whiner thread.........EPIC EPIC FAIL!!!

</gasp> a double epic fail, the end is near.

[GreyRogue]

In WoW ... you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent.

:confused: Really? Isn't WoW sub-based?

[Pirate-Jake]

DDO is Crippleware. But awesomely done crippleware. I love DDO.

[Tfkixmiller]

This is not all true. This guy might be working for a rival company like wow. DDO is free to play and is a game like runescape were you can pay for extra features. In this case the extra featues are VIP (if a world is full you don't have to wait to get in), and for additanl levels, iteams and quest. The reson that it seams as if you have to pay to have fun is this is a very new online game. As the devlelepers develop new stages more levels wepons and dungens will become avalibe. For example the new update that came out (update 1) has given us a couple new things and further updates will bring hours more of gameplay. So if you still belive this guy reply to me and I will explane in even more dephet.

[Freeman]

The reson that it seams as if you have to pay to have fun is this is a very new online game.

Um, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but DDO has been out for over 3.5 years now. I wouldn't exactly call it "new" anymore.

[Yagi]

How can this be crippleware at all when you can unlock full functionality simply by continuing to use it? Do you not know what the word means or did you simply want to use the word in a post to smear turbine in this section for as long as this post remains in it?

You can "draw" all the lines you want but that only serves to definitively turn your already hollow proclimations into naked opinion. Now your posts have changed from "Its not free" to "accessing everything for free takes too long for me"

So you have yourself refuted your own claims of this being crippleware...

[Memnir]

If it's not free enough for you - then hit the door. We won't miss you, I promise.

[kelsjet]

In WoW ... you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent.
:confused: Really? Isn't WoW sub-based?

Ah yes! The beauty of the selectively edited quote. Good job good sir, you have officially won the war, those surreptitiously placed ellipses have totally slipped past the average human's radar.

By the way, are you a republican?
Haha..

But nah, I am patient enough to let the trolls vent their "LOLCATS PWN FAIL NUBS ZOMG" contributions to this thread. They will eventually leave.
Constructive comments and contributions are welcome :)

[Tfkixmiller]

This is a fantastically accurate statement.


Not really, you could fail to understand my analogy, or my analogy could have failed to express a nuance, but you cannot refute an argument by negating an analogy (especially if you missed the emphasis of the analogy and then proceeded to create a whole new one of your own :D )

Yes, we can create arbritrary analogies and construe them to prove a point (pretty much any point), but arguing solely by analogy is always weak. I use analogies to help express a subtle point. I do not argue solely via analogy, and I suggest you shouldn't either :)



Thank you for agring with me I want to try to acualy eplain to people this is going to a great game talk to ya later.

[GreyRogue]

Ah yes! The beauty of the selectively edited quote. Good job good sir, you have officially won the war, those surreptitiously placed ellipses have totally slipped past the average human's radar.

By the way, are you a republican?
Haha..

But nah, I am patient enough to let the trolls vent their "LOLCATS PWN FAIL NUBS ZOMG" contributions to this thread. They will eventually leave.
Constructive comments and contributions are welcome :)

No, seriously. You posted that you can cap a character in WoW without paying a cent (I don't care about your Guild Wars claim, so I edited out an irrelevant part of the quote, which is what ellipses are for). Is there some way to get a WoW account for free and not pay a sub fee?

(See what I'm doing here? Trying to have a civil discussion without random personal attacks. Maybe you could try responding in kind.)

[BLAKROC]

This is a great comment (since it is going to constructively move the conversation forward).

The idea boils down to expectations, and whether the expectations being set by Turbine match the expectations of a new user.

I would hypothesize that the initial expectation that a new player has is, in fact, that a MMO claiming, and I quote, "Free, unlimited play" will not have any monetary requirements attached (for example, many other MMOs claim the exact same thing and are *actually* free, read: Guild Wars). I would support this hypothesis by proposing to the great number of players on this free forum (as well as the many in game) who are surprised (whether pleasantly or disgustingly) that there is a whole mass (2/3rds) of content that they in fact cannot relistically access without some form of financial transaction.
After all, if they were totally clear that they will not have unrestricted dungeon access (from a monetary perspective) then they wouldn't be surprised, would they?

Hence, the table turns onto what Turbine is advertising, which is part of my original point. That for some reason or another, their marketing campaign is not making clear the nature of DDOs payment model. I would be perfectly happy if at the initial website splash screen it is made clear to a new user that this game is not actually "totally free" but in fact has a solid content purchase schema in place. But it does not.

I think it would be unfair to ask a totally new user to automatically not associate the terms "Unlimited" and "free" as being an MMO where dungeon access is unrestricted (monetarily). Especially since there is already an existing precedence in the MMO space (Guild Wars) of MMOs claiming to be "Unlimited and Free" and actually delivering on that by having all content being unrestricted and actually, free.
Thus putting the ball squarely in Turbines court, and questioning why is it so hard for them to clarify, without a shadow of a doubt, that their 'free, unlimited play' does not actually include all the game content? (i.e. something like "Free, unlimited play... for the first 10 levels").

Which is where the core is at this point.

and the core of your point is WRONG the game is totally free to play. You don't need to pay anything and if you work hard enough you can unlock all the content and all the classes and races for guess what FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no hidden adgenda from turbine and no false or even misleading advertising.

this post and the others on same topic are really just whines of I want it all and i want it NOW> well you can have it all just play the game and earn it.
if you don't want to do that that is your choice.

[kelsjet]

This is not all true. This guy might be working for a rival company like wow.
I can assure you, that while flattering, I can state with certainty that I do NOT work for a rival company.

On a tangential note, DDO does not command a large enough market share in the MMO space for it to even really register as a major competitor to any of the main powerhouses. Hence, even if major MMO companies did in fact deal in underhand tactics of viral misinformation, they would most certainly not need to come to DDO to do it.

[Freeman]

Ah yes! The beauty of the selectively edited quote. Good job good sir, you have officially won the war, those surreptitiously placed ellipses have totally slipped past the average human's radar.

Wow, this is a new one. You didn't even read your own post, apparently. I know some people in the past have demonstrated the ability not to read what others have posted, but to not read your own is reaching new heights. I salute you for breaking new ground!

Albert Einstein: "The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

[Tfkixmiller]

OK guys are points arn't about wow there about this game just came out and there is only about 20 days of game play so it seems that you have to pay to play but as updates come this will get better.

[Beld]

Ah yes! The beauty of the selectively edited quote. Good job good sir, you have officially won the war, those surreptitiously placed ellipses have totally slipped past the average human's radar.

By the way, are you a republican?
Haha..

But nah, I am patient enough to let the trolls vent their "LOLCATS PWN FAIL NUBS ZOMG" contributions to this thread. They will eventually leave.
Constructive comments and contributions are welcome :)

I have seen less contortions at the circus :P

[Tfkixmiller]

I ment it is a new game in usa

[Doomcrew]

OK guys are points arn't about wow there about this game just came out and there is only about 20 days of game play so it seems that you have to pay to play but as updates come this will get better.

?

This game has been out since early 2006, and some of us have played it slightly longer than 20 days....

Cheers

[Mockduck]

Stupid companies and their crazy, goofy profits. After all, the employees work for free, right? So do the managers? And the stores that sell the game (theoretically)? It's not like there's anything that costs Turbine money associated with DDO, right? That's why it's Free to Play, cuz nothing costs nuthin for nobody? Except for the VIPs, but they only pay because they want to, not in order to get some kind of benefit. Otherwise, if any part of this is wrong, then DDO is not free to play!

Oh, and the power company reimburses my electrical use to play DDO, otherwise the game isn't free, either.

[Doomcrew]

No, it's been out here in North America since 2006...

[Freeman]

I ment it is a new game in usa

Nope, still been out 3.5 years here.

[leadhead]

Stupid companies and their crazy, goofy profits. After all, the employees work for free, right? So do the managers? And the stores that sell the game (theoretically)? It's not like there's anything that costs Turbine money associated with DDO, right? That's why it's Free to Play, cuz nothing costs nuthin for nobody? Except for the VIPs, but they only pay because they want to, not in order to get some kind of benefit. Otherwise, if any part of this is wrong, then DDO is not free to play!

Oh, and the power company reimburses my electrical use to play DDO, otherwise the game isn't free, either.

Well yeah, if it says f2p, then DDO should be reimbursing me for wear and tear on my cpu fan for playing their game if they want my non patronage for that matter!

[kelsjet]

Albert Einstein: "The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

William Arthur Ward: "It is wise to direct your anger towards problems -- not people; to focus your energies on answers -- not excuses."

[transtemporal]

I find that the source of the confusion is the way the F2P option is being presented to the users in a somewhat misleading and disingenuous way.

I think its ambiguous but I also think people are basically ignoring common sense and reading what they want to read into it.

If "Free Unlimited Play" was the strapline for ITunes, would you assume that gave you access to all ITunes music? Or would that be "Free Unlimited Content"?

[HamHamJ]

You guys should really stop feeding the trolls. It's obvious kelsjet's argument is not only self-contradictory but borderline incoherent.

[Minor_Threat]

William Arthur Ward: "It is wise to direct your anger towards problems -- not people; to focus your energies on answers -- not excuses."

"Badgers? BADGERS?! WE DON"T NEED NO STINKIN' BADGERS!" Raul, Raul's Wild Kingdom

[kelsjet]

Stupid companies and their crazy, goofy profits. After all, the employees work for free, right? So do the managers? And the stores that sell the game (theoretically)? It's not like there's anything that costs Turbine money associated with DDO, right? That's why it's Free to Play, cuz nothing costs nuthin for nobody? Except for the VIPs, but they only pay because they want to, not in order to get some kind of benefit. Otherwise, if any part of this is wrong, then DDO is not free to play!

Oh, and the power company reimburses my electrical use to play DDO, otherwise the game isn't free, either.

Straw man argument.

I have made it abundantly clear that the focus of this is not "Why do I have to pay for MMOs!?!", but in fact nothing more then an exploration into how marketing ploys shape expectations, only to have those expectations shattered, and whether such marketing tactics (ones which are better left in the infomercial space where they were born) have a place in the MMO industry at large.

Take it, or leave it, but there it is :)

[hydra_ex]

William Arthur Ward: "It is wise to direct your anger towards problems -- not people; to focus your energies on answers -- not excuses."

The problem: DDO is, in your opinion, crippleware. Your excuse, see above.

Take your own advice, and make sure that a statement can't come back to hurt you when using it in an argument.

I, for the record, disagree. People are often the problem.

[Robi3.0]

No, seriously. You posted that you can cap a character in WoW without paying a cent (I don't care about your Guild Wars claim, so I edited out an irrelevant part of the quote, which is what ellipses are for). Is there some way to get a WoW account for free and not pay a sub fee?

(See what I'm doing here? Trying to have a civil discussion without random personal attacks. Maybe you could try responding in kind.)

Actually there is, but it may or may not be entirely legal or blizzard approved.

That being said, I disagree with the OP. I would post a well thought out rebuttal but some how I don't think it will matter.

[GreyRogue]

I have made it abundantly clear that the focus of this is not "Why do I have to pay for MMOs!?!", but in fact nothing more then an exploration into how marketing ploys shape expectations, only to have those expectations shattered, and whether such marketing tactics (ones which are better left in the infomercial space where they were born) have a place in the MMO industry at large.

Just so I can understand where you're coming from, how would you market a game like DDO other than "Free to Play"? Should every banner ad have a wall of text disclaimer about how much is actually free and that there are portions only available with DDO Store purchase? Should the user have to read a pop-up window about it first before being allowed to install the software? Is your problem with the word "unlimited"? I guess I just don't understand what your problem is with the DDO marketing strategy. Perhaps this discussion, such as it is, could be more productive if you clearly stated your position.

ETA: Actually, I just realized that Robi's right. I don't really care what the OP's root problem is as I am unlikely to be persuaded or to persuade. I hope you all have a nice evening.

[melkor1702]

"Screw these guys that have been paying us for the last 3 years, this guy gets to have everything he wants. We should pay him a steady salary on top of it. Hell, he should have his own country, too. Somewhere nice and sunny, where the chicks outnumber guys 10-1 and only go topless :)"

Please.

Sounds good to me, where do I sign up ;)

[Gremmlynn]

No. If there is any fault with Turbine's ads, its in wrongly assuming their audience had values. Something beyond "I want it now and I want it all for nothing".

I've recently downgraded from sub to f2p. The idea that f2p is "crippleware" is ridiculous.Actually, the fact that so many seemed to have read that into how f2p was presented is what is being questioned. Not wether it was falsely advertised (it wasn't) or what common sense should have told people (there are enough other f2p games out to dispel that arguement).

The big question, to my mind, is what effect this perception of deception might have on the game's, and the company's, reputation. Also, I don't understand why people even attemt to bring the topic up in these forums, as most here are already sold on both the game and the company and are unlikely to understand why it anyone else wouldn't be.

[kelsjet]

Just so I can understand where you're coming from, how would you market a game like DDO other than "Free to Play"?

Good question!

For things such as this, I prefer (others could have other preferences) to go with the Okkam approach. Call a stove a stove.
In DDO's case, market it as what it is, just as many, many other MMOs are marketing their counterparts to DDO's free to play option. That being, it is an extended trial.

You can't visit a single website nowadays without being bombarded with banner ads (unless you have ad block pro!) for a free trial of this MMO or that. Many of these MMOs are fare perfectly well too! Some are purely subs based, some are purely micro transaction based. Either way, the user knows exactly what he is in for before he starts.

And finally, when you, the user, does decide to start playing the MMO, you do so happily and with no surprise, since they are now choosing to join that MMO purely based on their experience playing it, and not some cockamamie and newfangled tangle of content restriction mess.

Okkam ftw!

In this view, there is no need for ambiguity, sneakiness and questionable marketing tactics.

After all, its not like this 'free to play' option from Turbine is a new idea, people have been doing it for years! And the people who are successful are the ones whose product truly is worth playing and paying for.

[HamHamJ]

Actually, the fact that so many seemed to have read that into how f2p was presented is what is being questioned. Not wether it was falsely advertised (it wasn't) or what common sense should have told people (there are enough other f2p games out to dispel that arguement).

The big question, to my mind, is what effect this perception of deception might have on the game's, and the company's, reputation. Also, I don't understand why people even attemt to bring the topic up in these forums, as most here are already sold on both the game and the company and are unlikely to understand why it anyone else wouldn't be.

By "so many" do you mean anything other than a dozen crazy people on the internet?

[kelsjet]

Actually, the fact that so many seemed to have read that into how f2p was presented is what is being questioned. Not wether it was falsely advertised (it wasn't) or what common sense should have told people (there are enough other f2p games out to dispel that arguement).
Great points. As Gremmlynn is stating. It is no longer a question of what 'ought' to be or what 'should have been' understood. The issue is that a vast majority of players (as proof look at how many topics exist about how free F2P really is) believed one thing, but got something else.

My questions are why this happened, and whether the driving function for this behavior has some merit or not. If only one or two people were questioning the nature of F2P, it would be one thing, but the fact that so many are means that this is actually an issue.



The big question, to my mind, is what effect this perception of deception might have on the game's, and the company's, reputation.
Exactly! And not only just how this impacts the perception of the game and company, but what repercussions this could have to the industry as a whole. MMOs, as we all know, copy everything from each other. If this infomercial-esque marketing techniques become the norm, imagine how warped the industry would become!

[HamHamJ]

Great points. As Gremmlynn is stating. It is no longer a question of what 'ought' to be or what 'should have been' understood. The issue is that a vast majority of players (as proof look at how many topics exist about how free F2P really is) believed one thing, but got something else.

If by "vast majority" you mean "a couple" and by "players" you mean "people who immediately went to the forums to complain" then maybe your point might be somewhere near reality.

But the reality is that the vast majority of people expected to be able to login to the game and play without spending money and that is exactly what they got and those of them who liked what they saw probably bought some points or subscribed. Other people may have wondered what it would take to keep playing for free and looked up any of the number of excellent guides on how to do so and decided if it was worth it to do this or not. Others still (myself among them) have been playing more or less since EU launched and have not come close to running out of f2p content so it's not even an issue for them.

So stop pretending that you somehow represent some silent majority of players instead of a vocal minority.

[BLAKROC]

Great points. As Gremmlynn is stating. It is no longer a question of what 'ought' to be or what 'should have been' understood. The issue is that a vast majority of players (as proof look at how many topics exist about how free F2P really is) believed one thing, but got something else.

My questions are why this happened, and whether the driving function for this behavior has some merit or not. If only one or two people were questioning the nature of F2P, it would be one thing, but the fact that so many are means that this is actually an issue.



Exactly! And not only just how this impacts the perception of the game and company, but what repercussions this could have to the industry as a whole. MMOs, as we all know, copy everything from each other. If this infomercial-esque marketing techniques become the norm, imagine how warped the industry would become!

so the 20 or so post on this topic constitute the VAST MAJORITY?
you sir are delusional.

[BLAKROC]

Good question!

For things such as this, I prefer (others could have other preferences) to go with the Okkam approach. Call a stove a stove.
In DDO's case, market it as what it is, just as many, many other MMOs are marketing their counterparts to DDO's free to play option. That being, it is an extended trial.

You can't visit a single website nowadays without being bombarded with banner ads (unless you have ad block pro!) for a free trial of this MMO or that. Many of these MMOs are fare perfectly well too! Some are purely subs based, some are purely micro transaction based. Either way, the user knows exactly what he is in for before he starts.

And finally, when you, the user, does decide to start playing the MMO, you do so happily and with no surprise, since they are now choosing to join that MMO purely based on their experience playing it, and not some cockamamie and newfangled tangle of content restriction mess.

Okkam ftw!

In this view, there is no need for ambiguity, sneakiness and questionable marketing tactics.

After all, its not like this 'free to play' option from Turbine is a new idea, people have been doing it for years! And the people who are successful are the ones whose product truly is worth playing and paying for.

they did call a stove a stove. it's hint FREE TO PLAY>>>>>>>>>

[Ystradmynach]

Exactly! And not only just how this impacts the perception of the game and company, but what repercussions this could have to the industry as a whole. MMOs, as we all know, copy everything from each other. If this infomercial-esque marketing techniques become the norm, imagine how warped the industry would become!

A few weeks ago I had the good providence to stumble upon a plan of the city council. A construction plan of epic proportions. We're calling it a freeway.

Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past...

I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.

[Pwesiela]

Good question!

In DDO's case, market it as what it is, just as many, many other MMOs are marketing their counterparts to DDO's free to play option. That being, it is an extended trial.



And yet, a trial would infer that you have some sort of stopping point at which there can be no further continuation. Either you get to a point where you cannot progress in the game anymore (level caps, or locked dungeons) or you reach a time limit that cannot be passed (Sorry, your 10 hours are up!).

Sadly, DDO has neither of those. You can play all content without spending an actual dime, and you can play as long as you want!

Curses Turbine!!! Why can't you just have this be a trial and cut people off from playing!!!!

[DeadHealer]

Great points. As Gremmlynn is stating. It is no longer a question of what 'ought' to be or what 'should have been' understood. The issue is that a vast majority of players (as proof look at how many topics exist about how free F2P really is) believed one thing, but got something else.

Well also there is another side to those players. How many WOULD have subbed w/o it being free to play? If they are complaining *now* they obviously had NO interest in the game and are just looking for a cheap game to play for awhile. This means they:

A: Are kids/adults who can't afford afford a pay to play model. - They would NOT be saying "Where is the content" if they really liked the game they could sub and get it all.


My questions are why this happened, and whether the driving function for this behavior has some merit or not. If only one or two people were questioning the nature of F2P, it would be one thing, but the fact that so many are means that this is actually an issue.

Turbine doesn't really care if they post "Is it full Free to play, because if it isn't I won't play!" In the end they would NOT have paid them before Unlimited went active. They lose Zero money.


Exactly! And not only just how this impacts the perception of the game and company, but what repercussions this could have to the industry as a whole. MMOs, as we all know, copy everything from each other. If this infomercial-esque marketing techniques become the norm, imagine how warped the industry would become!

I guess the informercial-esque marketing techniques would include stuff like Refer a friend/"Free to play"/Trial version etc. We already have all those above anyway. They have been in the MMO world long before DDO: Unlimited even came out.

[Pwesiela]

A few weeks ago I had the good providence to stumble upon a plan of the city council. A construction plan of epic proportions. We're calling it a freeway.

Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past...

I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.

You're crazy.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Crippleware has key features turned off until you pay.

With this game you can turn on all paid features through play of the game for free with the exception of the AH being limited to 1 post at a time.

Now is it easy to unlock with cash, yup. But it simply isn't crippleware.

[KualaBangoDango]

In a simple example, its like getting a calculator which has had its multiplication, division and subtraction buttons removed (leaving only addition), but giving you the option to use these removed buttons by purchasing them on a per button and per calculation basis.

Such software is usually given away for free and is not the same thing as 'shareware' software or 'trial version' software, since crippleware's express goal is to get the user to pay for regulated functionality (in DDO's terms, things like quests/dungeons/mobs/levels etc) rather than just allowing the user to sample the software (which is the common practice for things like shareware and trial software).

My answer? F2P is most definitely crippleware.
Now, the fact that you could, given infinite time and patience, still reach max level in DDO, it is not realistic (similar to how it is *possible* to do every multiplication calculation on a calculator using just the addition button, but any sane person would not do so). Would your calculator example still be considered crippleware if you could unlock the other functions for free simply by doing 100 addition calculations to unlock subtraction, then 100 combined add/subtract calculations to unlock multiply, then 100 more to unlock divide, etc, etc? Your explanation sounds to me like crippleware, in order to make money, must have those features PERMANENTLY locked out UNTIL it is paid for.

In other words, I don't think your example is a fair one. In order to be crippleware, free players would have to be permanently limited to the first ~80 free quests they start off with, and they'd ONLY be able to play those quests until they simply stopped leveling due to lack of xp. This is obviously not the case. There are numerous threads already where free players have specifically mentioned that they gained enough TP through quests (using addition function) to unlock several adventure packs (your subtraction and multiplication calculator functions) and that they plan on using those to unlock more (division, square root, etc) all for free.


In DDO's case, market it as what it is, just as many, many other MMOs are marketing their counterparts to DDO's free to play option. That being, it is an extended trial.So if a free player ends up unlocking EVERYTHING using free TP earned in game, could you really still call it an extended trial? If so, doesn't that mean that VIP subscribers themselves are paying $15/mo for an extended trial, since they are playing now what a totally free player can eventually play?


You can't visit a single website nowadays without being bombarded with banner ads (unless you have ad block pro!) for a free trial of this MMO or that. Many of these MMOs are fare perfectly well too! Some are purely subs based, some are purely micro transaction based. Either way, the user knows exactly what he is in for before he starts.

And finally, when you, the user, does decide to start playing the MMO, you do so happily and with no surprise, since they are now choosing to join that MMO purely based on their experience playing it, and not some cockamamie and newfangled tangle of content restriction mess.I see what you're trying to say here, but I disagree, at least as far as the f2p microtransaction based games that I myself have experienced. I have tried MANY f2p mmos, the most recent being Runes of Magic, and not one single one of them clarified up front (especially in the limited space of a banner ad) exactly how much of the game was free and what content had to be bought. I always had to find out on my own by doing a few minutes of research on their FAQ page or forums, or by simply playing and seeing for myself.

Edit: Dang! I typed too slowly...others above me already brought up these things.

[dredre9987]

i just want to say ddo is "free 2 play". get that right there? free to play. you can play it forever for free. doesnt say all content free to play or full game free to play just simply free to play.

[Thrudh]

A)The Extra content is an advanced feature of the game, therefore crippleware.
The problem with this philosophy is that means Blizzard turns WOW into crippleware everytime it releases a new expansion. Because now your game has content that is held off from your access, you cant enter northrend without WOLK. This I believe is wrong

B)The Extra Content is not a feature of the game, mearly an add-on to the expereince, and therefore not Crippleware
This is my stance and the stance of most others. The content you dont have access to is an add-on, and you only have to pay to own the content, not to play it as well.



Good post... +1 rep

[KillEveryone]

Would you mind pointing out exactly what functionality has been disabled for you? Unless they prevent F2P players from setting their clients to the highest graphics settings, or disable shield-blocking and jumping for them, I don't think the term "Crippleware" can be applied here. In the page you linked, all the terms refer to capabilities or functions that are disabled. If you care to reference something that restricts content and is still considered Crippleware, I'll take a look at that. Otherwise, you can make the argument that ITunes is Crippleware, since they give you the software for free with the expectation that you'll use it to purchase music from their store.

Technically, they don't get to post in all forums so they technically don't have all functionality. That is the forums however.

But, the game is compleatly free and fully functional. Yes, there is an epic grind to get free TP but what do you expect. Nothing is really truly free. Sometimes it costs $, others it costs time. You should and have to work for something worth while in life. Suck it up and deal with it.

Turbine is a business. A business needs to make money to pay expenses. Turbines expenses are programmers that make content for this game that you could earn without paying one red cent.

------------------------------------
A short rant.

/rant on

People that expect things without working for it really **** me off. Every time I go into work there are people that totally mooch of the system. They smoke cigs, dope, have really nice cell phones, nice shoes and clothes and they have no job, are not paying taxes into the system, raise health care because they can't be bothered to get a job.

They are not homeless either. They mooch of someone or the system and expect everyone to cater to them.

I'm not talking about disabled people here.

Yes there are people that are out of work, but those that DO WANT to work will get a job.

I'm talking about the lazy basterds that make my taxes go up. They think they are entilted to everything but contribute NOTHING worth while to society.

I have had to work 64 hours a week between two jobs to survive. I don't quite have to work that much now but if I want something then yes I do because my job still doesn't pay well. I just survive.

My job is a lot of work. It is hard work. My feet and back hurt from all the lifting people, moving people between tests, and a myrid of other responsibilities.

I sweat my butt off to cater to these people that treat staff, visitors, and other patients like ****. The world does not revolve around these types of people.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I have to work for something.

/rant off

------------------------------------
Boy, did that feel good to get out of the system. :)

[Thrudh]

In WoW, and GuildWars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent. In DDO, you cannot (not if you have a normal life that is).

What? You can get to max level in Guild Wars and WOW without paying a cent?

Is that what this troll is claiming?? I think we're done here...

[Pwesiela]

I think we're done here...

NO! Don't go! This is too much fun!

/gets more popcorn.

[kelsjet]

So, now that we are all asking the same question, lets try to address it and reach some sort of closure on it. What is this question?


So if a free player ends up unlocking EVERYTHING using free TP earned in game, could you really still call it an extended trial?

This is at the crux of what is really holding the idea of "yes... DDO really truly is free to play!" together. Let us investigate this and try to discern the truth value of this statement.

To start with, let me use an analogy to try to highlight an idea (nb. I'm not using the analogy to make the argument, but instead just to highlight a point. Try to understand the core point of the analogy and not see the analogy as the be all end all of the argument, agreed? Good!).

You live in San Francisco, you have a friend who lives in Manhattan and you need to send your friend a message.

You could write your message on a piece of paper, put it in a bottle and drop the bottle in the Pacific Ocean. With this it would be *possible* that your friend gets the message.
After all, all the worlds oceans are connected, so it is totally possible that the ebb and flow of the currents takes the bottle around the continent and after hitting a few tributaries it could end up in the main water supply feeding into Manhattan island. After which, by some very random event (with very low probability of occurring), the bottle could get stuck in the water pipes of your friend's apartment, causing a blockage. At which point your friend could call the plumber who, in the effort to fix the blockage, remove the bottle and present it to your friend who, in his curiosity, shatters the bottle and finds your message which reads:

"I really should have just paid for some internet/email access coz i wanted to ask for my dvd back lolcatsbbq"

But say the first message didn't get through, so you decide to send another, then another, then another, and through the basic laws of probability, if you keep sending 'em messages, your friend will get that message, someday (slap a few monkeys in a room full of typewriters and give them enough time and you can get the full works of Shakespeare!).

But your neighbour also has a friend in Manhattan and he also wants to get his DvD back. But, the smart man that he is, he has paid his internet bills and sends his friend an email.

So yea... it is, it most certainly is *possible* that you could indeed play the entire game from 1-20, but then again, no one said it wasn't *possible*. What we said was that it is not *realistic*. In effect, the grind from 1-20 in F2P is totally beyond what can be considered realistically achievable (assuming you have a normal life like normal people).

This concept of what is possible vs what is probable has driven many many things. Take a look at the lottery. The entire institution exists since it exploits, to a massive degree, this feeling people have that since it is possible, no matter how improbable, they will do it.

Now my argument incorporates how this kind of mentality, this idea of holding players to a game in such ethically voracious way, has no place in the MMO industry, or even the game industry as we know it. True, there is nothing wrong with having those few select achievements be driven purely by improbability. But having it be a cornerstone of your marketing campaign is well beyond the line, in my opinion.


So we will obviously ask the next question, that being

"Well why dont you just pay the $15 a month and be done with it, after all, its just fifteen bucks!?"

Quite simple really. If you do not want to pay $15 a month for something, you shouldn't, since you obviously don't think it is worth it. That is the beauty of the concept of "purchase power". I, for example, would be perfectly happy to pay $15 a month for some other MMO, because I actually think that it is an valid expense given the quality of the product. DDO, while a good game, is in no way good enough for me to pay the $15 monthly fee as well as invest in various forms of microtransactions.
In essence, the greater MMO community agrees with me here. How can we tell? Simple, just look at how many people play (and pay for) DDO vs some other more popular MMOs.
Comparatively, DDO's market share does not even register. Which means, like me, many people feel the quality of the product does not equal $15 in value.

What do I value this product to? How much would I be willing to pay? Hmm.. lets see, maybe $1 - $2 a month for full, unlimited access to all. For some, it may be more, for most, it is much less.

These are just the basic facts. Choosing to not accept them is your choice, but ignoring them does not change the facts.

[whysper]

Well that was a pointless analogy.

Toddlers come up with better rationales for gaining early access to cookies than this. If you do not feel that the coo--DDO is tas--good enough value for your grubby little fing---your money, then please depart, posthaste. I assure you, the 'market share' will not miss you.

[Uska]

So, now that we are all asking the same question, lets try to address it and reach some sort of closure on it. What is this question?



This is at the crux of what is really holding the idea of "yes... DDO really truly is free to play!" together. Let us investigate this and try to discern the truth value of this statement.

To start with, let me use an analogy to try to highlight an idea (nb. I'm not using the analogy to make the argument, but instead just to highlight a point. Try to understand the core point of the analogy and not see the analogy as the be all end all of the argument, agreed? Good!).

You live in San Francisco, you have a friend who lives in Manhattan and you need to send your friend a message.

You could write your message on a piece of paper, put it in a bottle and drop the bottle in the Pacific Ocean. With this it would be *possible* that your friend gets the message.
After all, all the worlds oceans are connected, so it is totally possible that the ebb and flow of the currents takes the bottle around the continent and after hitting a few tributaries it could end up in the main water supply feeding into Manhattan island. After which, by some very random event (with very low probability of occurring), the bottle could get stuck in the water pipes of your friend's apartment, causing a blockage. At which point your friend could call the plumber who, in the effort to fix the blockage, remove the bottle and present it to your friend who, in his curiosity, shatters the bottle and finds your message which reads:

"I really should have just paid for some internet/email access coz i wanted to ask for my dvd back lolcatsbbq"

But say the first message didn't get through, so you decide to send another, then another, then another, and through the basic laws of probability, if you keep sending 'em messages, your friend will get that message, someday (slap a few monkeys in a room full of typewriters and give them enough time and you can get the full works of Shakespeare!).

But your neighbour also has a friend in Manhattan and he also wants to get his DvD back. But, the smart man that he is, he has paid his internet bills and sends his friend an email.

So yea... it is, it most certainly is *possible* that you could indeed play the entire game from 1-20, but then again, no one said it wasn't *possible*. What we said was that it is not *realistic*. In effect, the grind from 1-20 in F2P is totally beyond what can be considered realistically achievable (assuming you have a normal life like normal people).

This concept of what is possible vs what is probable has driven many many things. Take a look at the lottery. The entire institution exists since it exploits, to a massive degree, this feeling people have that since it is possible, no matter how improbable, they will do it.

Now my argument incorporates how this kind of mentality, this idea of holding players to a game in such ethically voracious way, has no place in the MMO industry, or even the game industry as we know it. True, there is nothing wrong with having those few select achievements be driven purely by improbability. But having it be a cornerstone of your marketing campaign is well beyond the line, in my opinion.


So we will obviously ask the next question, that being

Well why dont you just pay the $15 a month and be done with it, after all, its just fifteen bucks!?

Quite simple really. If you do not want to pay $15 a month for something, you shouldn't, since you obviously don't think it is worth it. That is the beauty of the concept of "purchase power". I, for example, would be perfectly happy to pay $15 a month for some other MMO, because I actually think that it is an valid expense given the quality of the product. DDO, while a good game, is in no way good enough for me to pay a monthly fee as well as invest in various forms of microtransactions.
In essence, the greater MMO community agrees with me here. How can we tell? Simple, just look at how many people play DDO vs some other more popular MMOs.
Comparatively, DDO's market share does not even register. Which means, like me, many people feel the quality of the product does not equal $15 in value.

What do I value this product to? How much would I be willing to pay? Hmm.. lets see, maybe $1 - $2 a month for full, unlimited access to all. For some, it may be more, for most, it is much less.

These are just the basic facts. Choosing to not accept them is your choice, but ignoring them does not change the facts.



Here's a fact for you another for the list

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1O6nyKnow

[Krag]

I see what you're trying to say here, but I disagree, at least as far as the f2p microtransaction based games that I myself have experienced. I have tried MANY f2p mmos, the most recent being Runes of Magic, and not one single one of them clarified up front (especially in the limited space of a banner ad) exactly how much of the game was free and what content had to be bought. I always had to find out on my own by doing a few minutes of research on their FAQ page or forums, or by simply playing and seeing for myself.

Good point.
EVERY microtransaction based game claims to be free. And of course none of them is. There is no charity in the business world. For free you can only have an access to an illbalanced, mundnumbing grindfest.

[KillEveryone]

Good point.
EVERY microtransaction based game claims to be free. And of course none of them is. There is no charity in the business world. For free you can only have an access to an illbalanced, mundnumbing grindfest.

Regardless...it will still be free to play the game. You don't have to spend 1 penny to level your character to 20. You can get all adventure packs without spending 1 penny. It may be a grind fest but it is still FREE.

Just because people may not want to grind and not pay doesn't mean that it is not free. It is still free.

You can grind. Grind = Free to play. You don't have to invest any money into the game. If you don't feel like contributing to development to new contend then you grind. Suck it up and deal with it. It is not crippleware just because you have to grind. It is still FREE. Free = not paying money.

You can pay. Pay = You don't have to grind. It is easiear to just pay. You would also contribute to development of new material that someone that doesn't wish to help pay for can grind.

Take your pick.

Don't give me that time is investment BS either. You have to work for something that you want. You can pay with cash or invest time. Work at it either way. DEAL WITH IT.

[Crystalizer]

buying from time to time in store some stuff still costs much cheaper to me than a vip account and you do have all the fun
still playing without paying at all may be quite long indeed to get access to all features

[Krag]

You can grind. Grind = Free to play. You don't have to invest any money into the game. If you don't feel like contributing to development to new contend then you grind. Suck it up and deal with it. It is not crippleware just because you have to grind. It is still FREE. Free = not paying money.

You can pay. Pay = You don't have to grind. It is easiear to just pay. You would also contribute to development of new material that someone that doesn't wish to help pay for can grind.


This is exactly my point:
Pay = good game.
Free = bad game.

The choice is yours.

[Irinis]

The free experience available in DDO is not *bad* though. Of course, it depends on whether you're playing with good people or not. If you're in a good static group or a good guild the fun level rises drastically. If you're playing pugs and never with a group that fits your playstyle it can be really horrible.

So far I'm really happy with premium. I bought points just to get one adventure pack that looked good and didn't even realize I'd also get extra character slots so that was a pleasant surprise.

[Renas]

After countless weeks of thinking and many sleepless nights, I came up with a brilliant solution. Stop trolling the forums and quit the game. You'll stop wasting Turbine's server space and do the whole community a huge favor. Besides, what's the point of complaining that a free game is not free enough.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Lets get to the OP's point....

http://www.wdtprs.com/images/crybaby2.jpg

[Zippo]

So, now that we are all asking the same question, lets try to address it and reach some sort of closure on it. What is this question?


<Cut for sanity's sake>


What do I value this product to? How much would I be willing to pay? Hmm.. lets see, maybe $1 - $2 a month for full, unlimited access to all. For some, it may be more, for most, it is much less.

These are just the basic facts. Choosing to not accept them is your choice, but ignoring them does not change the facts.


So tell me why free is not free enough for something that you said yourself "isn't worth paying for" (which sticking around as long as I have I obviously disagree with). Also what you tout as facts is mere conjecture.

And for that matter if you dislike the game and believe the entertainment value is that low, Why are you continuing to stick around? You so far have proven that you can not make a reasonable decision



EDIT: BTW I didn't know it was possible to move yourself 2 bars into the negative rep, that says a lot about ya doesn't it?

[dunklezhan]

I'm new to this thread. I haven't read it all. I just wanted to say, as a F2P/Premium player, that I always thought it was perfectly clear what the business model was - it was, in fact, what attracted me to the game. Not that the game content was all available, but that I could pay as much or as little as I liked depending on what I wanted to do.

Yay! Choice! I thought. Now, I underestimated exactly how much content would be restricted (I kinda hit a wall about L4 which made me choose between repeating quests over and over or buying an adventure pack) but the fact is I came into this game eyes open because - shock horror - I did some research before playing. I checked it out.

Why did I check it out? Well, because there's no such thing as a free lunch and I wanted to see what the catch was. It was very easy to find out by a brief check of the forums and information on the DDO home pages!

No-one is concealing anything. That alone sealed the deal for me. They were saying, quite openly - there's a basic game that's free. There's a load of other stuff only available to paying customers. They then go on to *list* what is not available to free-players.

You may not like the choices they are offering, but you can't honestly say they don't allow you to make those choices in an informed way. If you just blundered into this blindly then frankly more fool you.

'Crippleware' is an emotive word. Its also unjustified in this case. Many games - including a certain globe spanning colossus with over 11 million monthly subscribers who have to buy the expansions on top of their subs for heaven's sake - have expansion packs which require you to buy them. This is no different except there's far more granularity about what you can purchase to 'expand' your free content. On top of that, if you go VIP they give you the LOT for no extra cost, which actually puts them a step ahead of the aforementioned globe spanning colossus as far as I'm concerned.

And even VIPs have to grind favour for turbine points for some content.

I'm sorry, but this is an entirely fair business model. Its very customer friendly (with the exception of the current situation with support calls which is down to them totally failing to predict how popular this would become) in terms of *not* ripping people off.

I would agree with the various posters I've seen who say 'yes, but its not very *likely* someone will get all the way through to L20 without spending a dime', but I ask you - does it matter? It is *possible* if you really want to do it. I don't want to endlessly grind the same quests so i will exercise my choice to buy expansions and at a certain 'break' point may even subscribe.

Its not false advertising (content is NOT functionality, however you dress it up - all the game mechanics are available to all at no charge at all, or are only unlockable via favour or turbine points whether f2p, premium or VIP), its not hiding anything, its not even expensive, comparitively speaking, if you do choose to pay.

I fail, utterly, to see the problem.

Yes. I did just admit openly on teh internets dat I is Fail. Meh.

[Krag]

The free experience available in DDO is not *bad* though. Of course, it depends on whether you're playing with good people or not. If you're in a good static group or a good guild the fun level rises drastically. If you're playing pugs and never with a group that fits your playstyle it can be really horrible.

So far I'm really happy with premium. I bought points just to get one adventure pack that looked good and didn't even realize I'd also get extra character slots so that was a pleasant surprise.

So you do pay, don't you? Why are you paying despite the possibility of staying free and still enjoy all the good stuff?



After countless weeks of thinking and many sleepless nights, I came up with a brilliant solution. Stop trolling the forums and quit the game. You'll stop wasting Turbine's server space and do the whole community a huge favor. Besides, what's the point of complaining that a free game is not free enough.

Try out some FREE games. The ones where you CAN'T influence the gameplay with real world money. Then spend another couple of weeks praying and contemplating. Once you archive the enlightened state of mind it will be possible for you to figure out why the FREE model is reasonable for them and why is it impossible for DDO.

[Renas]

So you do pay, don't you? Why are you paying despite the possibility of staying free and still enjoy all the good stuff?




Try out some FREE games. The ones where you CAN'T influence the gameplay with real world money. Then spend another couple of weeks praying and contemplating. Once you archive the enlightened state of mind it will be possible for you to figure out why the FREE model is reasonable for them and why is it impossible for DDO.


I've played many free mmo games and every one I've tried was a boring grindfest infested by gold-bots. DDO is on higher level of quality.

[Yagi]

I've played many free mmo games and every one I've tried was a boring grindfest infested by gold-bots. DDO is on higher level of quality.

yes the difference between this and any other f2p game I have ever seen is HUGE. This is a fully fleshed out game with dynamic content and many different scenarios to play, where as most f2p games are actually made from same handful of developer kits made by certain companies, and you basically fight the same few monster reskinned from lvl 1 on up. (often they are not even reskinned). In most fp2 games there really isnt alot of pve content, the content comes from the other players who are drawn in by the fp2 aspect and serve as fodder/atmosphere for those who use the store.
DDO has real pve gameplay and real content. You can barely even compare other fp2 games to it.

[strath]

My answer? F2P is most definitely crippleware.
Now, the fact that you could, given infinite time and patience, still reach max level in DDO, it is not realistic (similar to how it is *possible* to do every multiplication calculation on a calculator using just the addition button, but any sane person would not do so).


So what do you all think? Is DDO's "Unlimited Free!" just another crippleware ploy?

Only if I use a very loose version of the term "Crippleware"

I would consider it such if you were limited to only humans - Only Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, (yup pay money to unlock cleric MWAHAHAHAHA!) and level 4 was a firm cap on free to play & there was no way to get free turbines. Only pay to play can use potions. Totally crippleware . . . I would toss my hands up in disgust after playing for one day.

BUT

You will see that there is a massive number of free quests, there are ways to get a significant number of turbines for free, the majority of player races free, the majority of classes free . . .

You are giving the impression that you are looking a gift horse in the mouth, and a free game is totally a gift.

[strath]

yes the difference between this and any other f2p game I have ever seen is HUGE. This is a fully fleshed out game with dynamic content and many different scenarios to play, where as most f2p games are actually made from same handful of developer kits made by certain companies, and you basically fight the same few monster reskinned from lvl 1 on up. (often they are not even reskinned). In most fp2 games there really isnt alot of pve content, the content comes from the other players who are drawn in by the fp2 aspect and serve as fodder/atmosphere for those who use the store.
DDO has real pve gameplay and real content. You can barely even compare other fp2 games to it.

There are other sweet FTP games out there, but it is correct to say that DDO is one of the best, if not the best.

1) DDO
2) Puzzle Pirates
3) Runes of Magic
4) Megaten
5) Sword of the New World
6) Mabinogi
7) Free Realms (the family friendly MMO)
8) Mythwar II
9) Lunia
10) Atlantica

IMHO

. . . note this list is subject to change on my whim ^_^

Honorable mention for most under rated free to play - Bang Howdy.

[jjb008]

I think the main difference between DDO's F2P and other "free" games is that DDO was originally designed as a pay MMO. Revenues are down and they are trying to boost income to keep the game going so now it's a hybrid game. Personally, I like the hybrid because subs give a stable monthly revenue stream and get the benefit of all features and content. F2P players can play the game with most all the content and features right away, while needing to play more to unlock the other stuff. And then there are folks like me who use the micro transactions to purchase only the things they think have a value. Some months they pay more than $15 for things, sometimes they don't but that freedom to choice is what makes it work.

I think the OP makes a point about the limitations of some features for F2P folks but nothing is hidden and nobody is scammed. DDO's slogan is simply to drum up interest and get folks to the site to check out the game. If you don't like what you get as F2P you have 2 other options or you can just choose to move along to another game. No harm, no foul.

[Visty]

this thread reminds me of the following





Me: “Hi there, how can I help you?”

Customer: “Hello dear, I was wondering if I could return this coffee machine? It’s not making any coffee.”

Me: “Oh, right. Well, normally you would send it to the manufacturer and they would repair it.”

Customer: “Who?”

Me: “The manufacturer.”

Customer: “But I bought it here. Have a look at it anyway, son.”

Me: “Okay, I’ll have a quick look.”

(I open the box to find the machine wrapped in plastic and only slightly wet, but otherwise as clean as a brand new one.)

Me: “When you tried it out, did you put coffee in it?”

Customer: “Coffee?”

Me: “Yes, did you put coffee powder or granules in it?”

Customer: “No, of course not! Don’t be silly, it’s a coffee machine. It’s meant to MAKE coffee, is it not? Why buy a coffee machine that needs coffee in it to make coffee?!”

[Renas]

There are other sweet FTP games out there, but it is correct to say that DDO is one of the best, if not the best.

1) DDO
2) Puzzle Pirates
3) Runes of Magic
4) Megaten
5) Sword of the New World
6) Mabinogi
7) Free Realms (the family friendly MMO)
8) Mythwar II
9) Lunia
10) Atlantica

IMHO

. . . note this list is subject to change on my whim ^_^

Honorable mention for most under rated free to play - Bang Howdy.

Speaking of Mabinogi, I downloaded the game, registered and all was well until I got a pop up that says "This game is only available in North America". Talk about a last moment slap to the face.

[leadhead]

I think the main difference between DDO's F2P and other "free" games is that DDO was originally designed as a pay MMO. Revenues are down and they are trying to boost income to keep the game going so now it's a hybrid game. Personally, I like the hybrid because subs give a stable monthly revenue stream and get the benefit of all features and content. F2P players can play the game with most all the content and features right away, while needing to play more to unlock the other stuff. And then there are folks like me who use the micro transactions to purchase only the things they think have a value. Some months they pay more than $15 for things, sometimes they don't but that freedom to choice is what makes it work.

I think the OP makes a point about the limitations of some features for F2P folks but nothing is hidden and nobody is scammed. DDO's slogan is simply to drum up interest and get folks to the site to check out the game. If you don't like what you get as F2P you have 2 other options or you can just choose to move along to another game. No harm, no foul.

Also, I think it gives this game wider exposure to a much larger audience to become VIP. I was really only dimly aware of this game, but I didnt really hear how good it was. Once it became F2P, me and my friends decided to play it. We are all VIPs LOL!

[Jiraos]

There are other sweet FTP games out there, but it is correct to say that DDO is one of the best, if not the best.

1) DDO
2) Puzzle Pirates
3) Runes of Magic
4) Megaten
5) Sword of the New World
6) Mabinogi
7) Free Realms (the family friendly MMO)
8) Mythwar II
9) Lunia
10) Atlantica
.


One I used to play is Shards of Dalaya. (Used to be Winters Roar)
However, you need the Everquest:Platinum Disks (Not Download) ... again a minimum of cost.
But Shards was full content

[Quarks]

I didn't read every response here (I usually do before I post), so forgive if someone said that already:

DDO is definitely NOT crippleware because the game and all of its contents is 100% free for those who want it to be. Yes, you have to put in a little bit of effort, but you don't have to pay a cent in order to gain access to everything. Create characters on different servers, get favour on them, earn TP and buy whatever you want.

In order to pick up the OP's example with the calculator, DDO is like a calculator that has the multiplication, division and subtraction functions disabled and you have the option to either buy them (permanently!) or use the enabled functions a lot.
In the calculator example, the subtraction function would be enabled after, say, 100,000 additions performed.

Crippleware FORCES the customer to pay money in order to experience the entire product. DDO doesn't.

[cyanpill]

Crippleware is a pretty old term for me... I remember during the early 90's, getting an entire floppy devoted to a new game was a sure sign that it had lots of content. Only to find out that you had to pay an additional 10-20 dollars to unlock most of it... which was really just a waste of my time and money getting the floppy to begin with. Freeware games were much more upfront about what you got, and supported themselves wtih donations, comparable to most websites these days.


Speaking of Mabinogi, I downloaded the game, registered and all was well until I got a pop up that says "This game is only available in North America". Talk about a last moment slap to the face.

On a related note, I downloaded Runes of magic, only to find it requires a more powerful graphics card then I used for CoH and WoW. Now that's annoying :P

[westerndragon207]

I think where hes trying and failing to get to is that at a certain point it becomes nearly impossible to continue advancement. BUT this by no means restricts actual play "free to play" not "free to cap out"

I understand that it seems a tad underhanded to sell points that in the long run can be earned.

only the otherside of that coin look at it like this:

I played an MMO for over 4 years that required a $5.95 per month subcription for all content, skills and classes.

now over 4 years i spent around $300.

DDO sells points for you at a start of around $15 if I buy points to unlock content they make WAAAAY more money in the long run then simply charging a nominal fee for everything.

its the age old addage "he who has the deepest pockets gets there the fastest."

I purchased points to get my drow race and a few adventure packs without MONTHS of grinding favor so i can see your frustration if you are grinding....its a slow aggonizing repetitive process.....BUT ITS FREE.

Do some chores and get an allowance and stop b!ching

[Khafar]

I think it's basically irrelevant what it's called. It's an online game you can play for free, with enough content to keep you playing for maybe a few months. You can play after that, but it's pretty much going to be just grinding (or replaying the same limited content on another character).

This seems like perfectly rational design for such a game. They want the initial experience to be free so lots of people will be willing to give it a try, but they really don't want for freeloaders to stick around long-term - that just costs them money. If people enjoy the game in the first month or two, they'll probably fork over a little money to try some of the additional content. If they like that (or want other features, like better inventory management), they'll pay some more. And of course, some players will spend way more money on a game like this than they ever would on a purely subscription-based game...

Khafar

[Aumvaar]

For free you can only have an access to an illbalanced, mundnumbing grindfest.

It's a good thing that people can choose not to play ill-balanced, mind-numbing grind-fests if they decide that gameplay style isn't for them.

[Aumvaar]

Ah yes! The beauty of the selectively edited quote

That "selectively edited quote" aptly demonstrated that your claim -- that you can cap a character in WoW without paying a cent -- was pure nonsense.

Of course, you chose to completely ignore that part.

[incendia]

There are other sweet FTP games out there, but it is correct to say that DDO is one of the best, if not the best.

1) DDO
2) Puzzle Pirates
3) Runes of Magic
4) Megaten
5) Sword of the New World
6) Mabinogi
7) Free Realms (the family friendly MMO)
8) Mythwar II
9) Lunia
10) Atlantica

I'm not sure about the rest, but even Puzzle Pirates isn't entirely free to play. In fact, you're more limited in Puzzle Pirates if you don't pay than you are in DDO. At least DDO gives you the option of grinding if you really don't want to pay. There are lots of things you can't do in Puzzle Pirates (certain puzzles, games, etc. I think) if you don't subscribe, or fork out the cash in some fashion (doubloons and stuff, I think. It's been a while.)

I don't really see why all the fuss about DDO not being free to play is being kicked up. It is free to play. It doesn't cost you anything to start an account. Yeah, you have the sigil problem, but copper sigils are pretty much guaranteed and silver... well, if you get frustrated enough, you probably should have enough TP just from favour to get that annoying silver sigil. And that will carry you to level 12. Sure, it kind of thins out after that, but then it makes no sense for them to give everything to you for free, right? They need to turn a profit!

[SoulDecay]

I've played console games that require hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of play to unlock every aspect. FF7 or Tactics, for example. Getting KotR, or all the optional characters in FF:T takes a VERY long time. Or Devil May Cry, to get all the weapons/skills/upgrades/difficulty levels.

Why is it so bad that in this game, you have the option to grind it, the option to pay a one time fee for specific content, or the option to pay monthly?

I started F2P, I knew there must be a "catch", I looked until I found it (Which took about... 5 seconds.), and I went "gee... That's not much of a catch." I'm VIP as long as funds allow, and if they cease to allow, then I'll have plenty of TP between favor and monthly allotments to buy the content to keep going for awhile.

Grinding doesn't invalidate a game. You didn't "not get" FF7 just because you had to spend 150 hours racing the dumb Chocobos to get KotR, despite paying 50 bucks for the game (or 10 now. Or getting it for free as a gift. Whatever.) You didn't get a bugged copy of DMC because you can't start a game on Nightmare as soon as you unwrap it.

Why the drama?

[Battleworm]

Gotta love how "free" is not "Free enough".

OP must be the type that when he finds a quarter on the sidewalk, shakes his fist up at the sky and says "Hey GOD, you bastard! Wheres the other 75cents!"


Ah man....good stuff!Made me laugh out loud lol

[Cedwin]

No, DDO is not crippleware.

I can login, create a character, kill bad guys, and loot chests with friends at no cost.

I see it as more of an "expansive" type game... where F2P is the base game, and the extra content is simply micro expansion packs.

You don't call The Sims crippleware, even though you don't get everything up front for free, or any XBox game that has downloadable add-ons, or any other game that requires you to purchase expansions or add-ons, so why the hate against this game?

[KoboldKiller]

I want a thread explaining WHY IT MATTERS.

I don't get all this outrage. If you put in the time all content can be gained for FREE. If you don't put in the time it's still FREE if you just stick to the non premium content, either way WHO CARES.

People seriously need to move on and get over this whole Free not free argument.

It's been beaten to DEATH.

[Cedwin]

I want a thread explaining WHY IT MATTERS.

I don't get all this outrage.

From what I get out of all of these posts, people are trying to say Turbine straight up lied to them, that the ads are all false advertising, and that they want something for free now because of their "pain and suffering".

Typical "give me what I want or I'm leaving and never coming back, and telling all my friends not to play either!" type of posts.

[KoboldKiller]

From what I get out of all of these posts, people are trying to say Turbine straight up lied to them, that the ads are all false advertising, and that they want something for free now because of their "pain and suffering".

Typical "give me what I want or I'm leaving and never coming back, and telling all my friends not to play either!" type of posts.

Ah yes I get it now.

[Kralgnax]

Troll much?

[leadhead]

It is not crippleware no matter how much the nay sayers try to twist the definition to make it fit. According to them, Microsoft office is crippleware because you have to pay extra to get the full blown professional or corporate editions which gives you extra features like one note, frontpage etc... Or real/ultra VNC is crippleware since you dont get the active directory authentication and encryption features without paying for the enterprise edition.

Crippleware is when you download a free program that recovers say a lost excel spreadsheet you run the program and it finds it but then says recovering the information is part of the "payed" version click here to buy our software.

As I said before... VIPs have the full blown version with all of the features and modules and characters. The free guys have a basic version that has fully working features...but it does not have "ALL" of the fully working components.

That is even excluding the fact that for those bargain basement types that you have the option to unlock the full blown version through playing which also excludes it from being in the crippleware catagory.

[Kralgnax]

It's a troll. I just realised (Ok, my brain's slow today).

Cheers to the rest.

[dredre9987]

Originally Posted by kelsjet View Post
In WoW, and GuildWars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent. In DDO, you cannot (not if you have a normal life that is).

lmao free WoW huh yeah like thats ever gonna happen OP your one of the most unenlightened trolls ive ever run across

[Visty]

lmao free WoW huh yeah like thats ever gonna happen OP your one of the most unenlightened trolls ive ever run across

well, it is possible to play WoW for free, did so till lvl24 myself (was nothing to do while running reaver, so i ran around there abit^^) but thats in private servers only with alot less population

[Robi3.0]

Originally Posted by kelsjet View Post
In WoW, and GuildWars, you can attain max level in a totally reasonable manner without paying a cent. In DDO, you cannot (not if you have a normal life that is).

lmao free WoW huh yeah like thats ever gonna happen OP your one of the most unenlightened trolls ive ever run across

As I stated earlier in the thread this is possible, but of questionable legality and more then likely not supported by Blizzard.

That still doesn't make the OP right and not a troll. He is most defiantly a troll.

I wish players would just ignore threads like these especial if they are posted in the F2p forum. Chances are the OP has never played DDO and is just stirring the pot.

[Kaldahr]

When I first heard about DDO:U, I decided to d/l the client and do a little reading while sucking back 4GB of online goodness before I committed my time and effort to something I may not have liked.

As such, I fully expected to have to pay money to be able to access adventures that I wouldn't have access at the beginning, but there's still dozens of adventures I can access without paying.

I expected to have to pay to unlock several classes that I might not have access to at the beginning, but I can still play as a fighter, wizard, cleric, or rogue (and their various subclasses) without paying .

I expected to have to pay to unlock several races that I might not have access to at the beginning, but I can still play as human, elf, dwarf, and halfling without paying.

Being aware of previous games that have gone (or started off as) F2P, I didn't expect that I could play the entire game with no cost aside from time invested (admittedly, a large amount of time). As such, this was a welcome surprise.

I told several of my friends about the game and they got into it the same way. They read up on it, asked me a few questions (that I answered to the best of my newbie ability) about how things worked and how the various payment systems functioned. None of them have been surprised, or even dismayed, to find that, if they wanted access to the extra content, they would have to pay or end up playing for a while. Indeed, their only dilemma was whether to grind the system or to pay for the content immediately!

I can only speak for myself and a few other players. We were expecting what we got.

That Turbine has convinced us to spend a small amount of money is a tribute to game design (ah, Monks), the fervor of the DDO community to show what's possible with unlocked content, and impatience in the human psyche.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

Mmm I think this thread has been basted in enough name calling and angst for a proper meal for me. /slurp.