Retroactive Tome Changes, pt 2

[Eladrin]

Originally posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2520925#post2520925) in the "Retroactive Tome Change" thread.

We've done some more investigation, and here's what we're going to do:

Currently on the servers, inherent bonus suppression is applying to all characters. If you ate a no-minimum-level tome two years ago or today and are under the current minimum levels for the bonuses, the inherent bonuses that the tome applied being clamped. (+1 for levels 3-6, +2 for levels 7-10, +3 for levels 11-14, +4 for levels 15-18, and technically +5 for levels 19-20.)

We're going to go implement what was our original plan.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

You have a little bit of time to voraciously consume any no-ML tomes you might possess before they're replaced. They'll temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day. (If you ate a no-ML Intelligence tome, you may want to hold off on leveling until after patch day to get the full bonus.)

When you lesser or greater reincarnate a character, all tomes will be applied using the rules that new tomes follow. (+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)

[Dirac]

Fair enough. I appreciate that clearly some discussion was put into how to change the game for the better without really screwing over people who had planned on different circumstances.

[dasein18]

Originally posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2520925#post2520925) in the "Retroactive Tome Change" thread.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

You have a little bit of time to voraciously consume any no-ML tomes you might possess before they're replaced. They'll temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day. (If you ate a no-ML Intelligence tome, you may want to hold off on leveling until after patch day to get the full bonus.)

When you lesser or greater reincarnate a character, all tomes will be applied using the rules that new tomes follow. (+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)

Bravo! Seems clear to me... eat your no ML tomes NOW. You will get the +2 to show up after the patch (no need to level to 7 for it to happen, you get the Xtra skill points). If you do not eat a ML7 will ...poof.. appear on your tome in the bank.

[Minor_Threat]

Thanks for posting Eladrin!

helpful as always.

[ArkoHighStar]

its time for the going out of business sale for no ml tomes

let the blowout begin

[jakeelala]

its time for the going out of business sale for no ml tomes

let the blowout begin

Yeah, this is going to be interesting.

[ArkoHighStar]

wait did he just list +5 tomes:eek:

(+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)

[Samadhi]

For all the billions of stealth nerfs that we were given no warning about over the years, this one, that was known and discussed on Llamaland from ages, seems so minor as for me to question why they are bothering with a fix at all.

[Tolero]

Bravo! Seems clear to me... eat your no ML tomes NOW. You will get the +2 to show up after the patch (no need to level to 7 for it to happen, you get the Xtra skill points). If you do not eat a ML7 will ...poof.. appear on your tome in the bank.

Yup. Now now now. Go go go. This is why I was supposed to be talking about it before to give you time to eat / sell / trade them *slurp*

[Beherit_Baphomar]

its time for the going out of business sale for no ml tomes

let the blowout begin

I'm just glad they figured out what caused this 'bug' in the first place.

Lol.

[tihocan]

Thanks for the clear explanation :)

Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind retroactively changing old no-ML tomes? Is it for balancing reasons, or because it's the easiest way for you to accomodate the reincarnation code?

[Khurse]

I is confused.

If you can leave the no ML tomes in so they work now (and I don't have to level my toons to 7 to get the benefits) and then work as the new tomes if I reincarnate, why are you changing the no ML tomes at all?

(Again entirely possible I'm missing something) but it seems the change to no ml tomes is being made..so the change can be made? Did a no ml make fun of someone importants mother? Maybe take their lunch money at school? Was one of the Devs frustrated they could never pull one so they're being wiped from the game?

Really not a rant (yes I've got 20 or so in the bank) ,not that important, just curious.

[Jovial]

Originally posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2520925#post2520925) in the "Retroactive Tome Change" thread.

On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

Without regard for our promise of them being grandfathered or any regard for the financial losses that many of our customers suffered from it? Any chance you might acually address the problem?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I is confused.

If you can leave the no ML tomes in so they work now (and I don't have to level my toons to 7 to get the benefits) and then work as the new tomes if I reincarnate, why are you changing the no ML tomes at all?

(Again entirely possible I'm missing something) but it seems the change to no ml tomes is being made..so the change can be made? Did a no ml make fun of someone importants mother? Maybe take their lunch money at school? Was one of the Devs frustrated they could never pull one so they're being wiped from the game?

Really not a rant (yes I've got 20 or so in the bank) ,not that important, just curious.

when people started talking about saving +3/+4 tomes for their second reincarnation things started getting heavy.

[ArkoHighStar]

I is confused.

If you can leave the no ML tomes in so they work now (and I don't have to level my toons to 7 to get the benefits) and then work as the new tomes if I reincarnate, why are you changing the no ML tomes at all?

(Again entirely possible I'm missing something) but it seems the change to no ml tomes is being made..so the change can be made? Did a no ml make fun of someone importants mother? Maybe take their lunch money at school? Was one of the Devs frustrated they could never pull one so they're being wiped from the game?


The intent is to have all tomes behave the same way after reincarnate is brought in on a go forward basis. The tomes behaving as they are now was not intended. It appears as though we were suppsoed to get a warning about it before it was implemented, but we got some unexpected behaviour instead.

[dasein18]

wait did he just list +5 tomes:eek:

Good eye... I want a screen pic of this dropping :)
Maybe in Epic quests?

[Uska]

For all the billions of stealth nerfs that we were given no warning about over the years, this one, that was known and discussed on Llamaland from ages, seems so minor as for me to question why they are bothering with a fix at all.


as a gesture of goodwill to those who feel they were wronged and nothing wrong with them doing that.

[LargeMarge]

When is the "patch day"?

[tihocan]

If you can leave the no ML tomes in so they work now (and I don't have to level my toons to 7 to get the benefits) and then work as the new tomes if I reincarnate, why are you changing the no ML tomes at all?
I don't think they can leave the no ML tomes so they work now. The way I read it, it sounds like it's more something they can do during a patch (unclamp the inherent bonus), and they can only do it now because noone is reincarnated yet. Once people start reincarnating, they won't be able to do it anymore with the current implementation of inherent bonuses.

[ArkoHighStar]

Good eye... I want a screen pic of this dropping :)
Maybe in Epic quests?

possibly


Oh Eladrin please tell us where we may find these nice +5 tomes you have so nicely told us about:D

[dasein18]

When is the "patch day"?

....Sooooon..




Sorry I could not help myself. :)

[seldarin]

Lol, i find it very amusing that for a long time now people have been *****ing and screaming wanting a respec. Now they got one, they dont like what is involved. No pleasing people. I guess what they wanted was a total respec with everything available at level 1 so they could easy street it again :)

[Jovial]

Lol, i find it very amusing that for a long time now people have been *****ing and screaming wanting a respec. Now they got one, they dont like what is involved. No pleasing people. I guess what they wanted was a total respec with everything available at level 1 so they could easy street it again :)

Maybe you will understand it when they gank devil scales or something you thought "or was even told" was safe.

[Impaqt]

Lol, i find it very amusing that for a long time now people have been *****ing and screaming wanting a respec. Now they got one, they dont like what is involved. No pleasing people. I guess what they wanted was a total respec with everything available at level 1 so they could easy street it again :)

This isnt about Respec at all.... This is about items in our inventory that changed.

[Borror0]

Lol, i find it very amusing that for a long time now people have been *****ing and screaming wanting a respec. Now they got one, they dont like what is involved. No pleasing people. I guess what they wanted was a total respec with everything available at level 1 so they could easy street it again :)
That's one of the laws: (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml)
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with.

This isnt about Respec at all.... This is about items in our inventory that changed.
Yeah but it would have never happened was reincarnation not implemented.

[jakeelala]

yeah this change literally effects maybe 10% (at absolute MAX) of the population (ie people with +2 ML1 tomes). I bet it's far lower.

I would MUCH rather have a few new quests. Or some old annoying bugs fixed.

le sigh

[Jovial]

That's one of the laws: (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml)
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with.

Not all of us asked for a respec. some of us built our characters correct in the first place. At least before the AC build nerf or the wop nerf or the transmuting nerf, etc.etc.

[BLAKROC]

[URL="http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml"].

Yeah but it would have never happened was reincarnation not implemented.

This is a blatenly false statemet bor, it is because they decided to put min lvls on tomes and went with it, Has nothing to do with reincarnation, only with the way they CHOSE to implement it. they could have choosen another way to implement tomes vs levels and it woulnd't affect it at all.

[Samadhi]

Not all of us asked for a respec. some of us built our characters correct in the first place. At least before the AC build nerf or the wop nerf or the transmuting nerf, etc.etc.

Or built characters before PrE's? Or even built our characters back when there were only Four enhancements you could take? Remember that? Don't talk about "built our characters correct in the first place" until you have played the game through the literally hundreds of significant changes they have made.

[Jovial]

Or built characters before PrE's? Or even built our characters back when there were only Four enhancements you could take? Remember that? Don't talk about "built our characters correct in the first place" until you have played the game through the literally hundreds of significant changes they have made.

May want to check my start date before making statements like that. If you want a respec thats fine. Doesnt excuse the loss of my treasure.

[Samadhi]

May want to check my start date before making statements like that. Doesnt excuse the loss of my treasure.

So to use a more recent example - how is the change here any different to the changes to w/p's? Wasn't a w/p rapier, prenerf, worth easily a STACK of +2 Int Tomes with no ML?

Granted, if they have decided to be a kinder and gentler nerf-bat of Turbine - more power to them - but this kind of after-the-fact correction is far from the norm. If they have changed their policies and attitudes - great. If not - then why this of all things that has such a minimal impact on the game?

[Borror0]

Not all of us asked for a respec. some of us built our characters correct in the first place. At least before the AC build nerf or the wop nerf or the transmuting nerf, etc.etc.
You know that nerfs were the reason so many people wanted a respec in the first place and not that they can't build a character.

This is a blatenly false statemet bor, it is because they decided to put min lvls on tomes and went with it, Has nothing to do with reincarnation, only with the way they CHOSE to implement it. they could have choosen another way to implement tomes vs levels and it woulnd't affect it at all.
That's exactly my point. We asked for it but are not willing to accept what comes with it.

I'm not disagreeing with you; there is a reason to complain but it just shows how thankless of a job game development really is.

[Harncw]

Originally posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2520925#post2520925) in the "Retroactive Tome Change" thread.

We've done some more investigation, and here's what we're going to do:

Currently on the servers, inherent bonus suppression is applying to all characters. If you ate a no-minimum-level tome two years ago or today and are under the current minimum levels for the bonuses, the inherent bonuses that the tome applied being clamped. (+1 for levels 3-6, +2 for levels 7-10, +3 for levels 11-14, +4 for levels 15-18, and technically +5 for levels 19-20.)

We're going to go implement what was our original plan.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

You have a little bit of time to voraciously consume any no-ML tomes you might possess before they're replaced. They'll temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day. (If you ate a no-ML Intelligence tome, you may want to hold off on leveling until after patch day to get the full bonus.)

When you lesser or greater reincarnate a character, all tomes will be applied using the rules that new tomes follow. (+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)



Wow... epic... you guys done making changes now? or what is next?

Are you sure?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

May want to check my start date before making statements like that. If you want a respec thats fine. Doesnt excuse the loss of my treasure.

Your start date has nothing to do with what he's saying and everything to do with changes outwith our control.

[Phidius]

Without regard for our promise of them being grandfathered or any regard for the financial losses that many of our customers suffered from it? Any chance you might acually address the problem?

Of course, the problem is that they are constantly making changes that undermine any trust we might have placed in them. The only thing is, I don't think they even know about this problem...

Remember the "Something Special" we were promised for hanging in there during the months of absolute silence? A single-use rez cake. Woot.

I could go on, but what's the point.


Lol, i find it very amusing that for a long time now people have been *****ing and screaming wanting a respec. Now they got one, they dont like what is involved. No pleasing people. I guess what they wanted was a total respec with everything available at level 1 so they could easy street it again :)

Nope, never once asked for a respec. I guess you're just saying this because you took advantage of all those newbies who didn't know any better. You know, since we're just making things up and all.

[Barumar]

For all the billions of stealth nerfs that we were given no warning about over the years, this one, that was known and discussed on Llamaland from ages, seems so minor as for me to question why they are bothering with a fix at all.

It is important to remember this is not just that my lvl 2 Wizi/Rogue who ate a +2 INT and +2 CON Tome at lvl 1 would not have shown the 20 base INT and CON until lvl 7 any more - it is the 2 extra Skill Points the +2 INT gave me at lvl 2 and would give me at lvl 3 - 6 for a total of 10 extra skill points!

I truly believe this is why I am many others were upset (to varying degrees :D).
I was a little upset, but considering I have the Flu, had to travel to a conference sick, and am still sick and had some personal issues to deal with at home when I returned = teenager, it really was not that big of a deal - and yes I paid a lot for my Tome too...

Anyway, I am glad Turbine decided to fix this 'bug' and are doing it quickly, and communicating well with the player base (at least those that go on the Forums) VERY well about it.

Tips hat to Turbine.

Barumar

[Jovial]

So to use a more recent example - how is the change here any different to the changes to w/p's? Wasn't a w/p rapier, prenerf, worth easily a STACK of +2 Int Tomes with no ML?

Granted, if they have decided to be a kinder and gentler nerf-bat of Turbine - more power to them - but this kind of after-the-fact correction is far from the norm. If they have changed their policies and attitudes - great. If not - then why this of all things that has such a minimal impact on the game?

Because I worked very hard for my WoP raipers. then they were made all but useless. I worked very hard on several builds. then they were nerfed. I worked very hard to get my +2 int tomes and now my investment is gone. Im trying to find a way to justify continuing to play the game I love but I cannot trust that whatever my next endeavor would be wont just get swept away too. Are scales safe? What about Bloodstones? What if I reincarnate my ranger for the new power and then they nerf that power. There is no trust. And that is why im mad. They need to find a way to make it right so I can go a looting and having fun again.

[Jovial]

Your start date has nothing to do with what he's saying and everything to do with changes outwith our control.

huh?

[Phidius]

Not all of us asked for a respec. some of us built our characters correct in the first place. At least before the AC build nerf or the wop nerf or the transmuting nerf, etc.etc.


Or built characters before PrE's? Or even built our characters back when there were only Four enhancements you could take? Remember that? Don't talk about "built our characters correct in the first place" until you have played the game through the literally hundreds of significant changes they have made.



May want to check my start date before making statements like that. If you want a respec thats fine. Doesnt excuse the loss of my treasure.



Your start date has nothing to do with what he's saying and everything to do with changes outwith our control.







Here, I've colored the section he was refering to. Jovial is constantly re-rolling characters due to changes in the game... he has a great deal of patience, and doesn't mind running the same old thing over and over again if that's what it takes to get everything right.

The only problem is that Turbine has exhausted that patience with the constant nerfing.

Anyone else get the feeling we're all agreeing, just in a totally unique way?

[t3pt6k]

Originally posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2520925#post2520925) in the "Retroactive Tome Change" thread.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).



Just for clarification. Tomorrow's hot-fix is not patch day correct?

I think this is a fair and fine compromise. Thank you.

[Tolero]

Just to clarify tomorrow's hot-fix is not patch day?

I think this is a fair and fine compromise. Thank you.

No tomorrow is not "the" patch that will change the tomes

[t3pt6k]

No tomorrow is not "the" patch that will change the tomes

Thanks for the quick reply Tolero. That means I can actually get some sleep tonight!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

No tomorrow is not "the" patch that will change the tomes

Will tomorrow fix "The" Shroud?

Wrong place to ax I know but...

[Pyromaniac]

Can't say that I find this a beneficial change, as it was well discussed on the forums and in-game that the tome nerf was coming.

You just can't stockpile any sort of item in DDO as everything either loses its value or is nerfed. Waiting for large scales to come into the store next, as that's all that's really left. Maybe they'll drop in 10 stacks in the next update?

Now if you made +2 no min level tomes work until after reincarnation was in, that would be fair.

[KoboldKiller]

I'm going to make this simple. Things change due to unforeseen complications or unbalancing issues that arise farther down the road. Not all changes will make people happy or are asked for. Nothing in this world is perfect including games. Either you adapt to the changes or you don't, that is your choice. So you can adapt and stay or refuse and leave, pretty simple.


This brings me to another subject related to this topic, perception. You perceive the plat you spent or items you traded for those tomes as a loss now. I see it as you gained several +2 tomes that many players do not have and I am sure would love to have. You perceive WoP worthless just because they do not kill now, yet again I am sure there are plenty of people willing to take those off your hands but I'm guessing even though you say they are worthless you aren't going to just give them up.

[Junts]

I'm going to make this simple. Things change due to unforeseen complications or unbalancing issues that arise farther down the road. Not all changes will make people happy or are asked for. Nothing in this world is perfect including games. Either you adapt to the changes or you don't, that is your choice. So you can adapt and stay or refuse and leave, pretty simple.


This brings me to another subject related to this topic, perception. You perceive the plat you spent or items you traded for those tomes as a loss now. I see it as you gained several +2 tomes that many players do not have and I am sure would love to have. You perceive WoP worthless just because they do not kill now, yet again I am sure there are plenty of people willing to take those off your hands but I'm guessing even though you say they are worthless you aren't going to just give them up.

worth less, not worthless.

I may not trade my wop rapier, but if i did, it'd no longer get me the 48 larges I paid for it.

[Jovial]

You perceive WoP worthless just because they do not kill now, yet again I am sure there are plenty of people willing to take those off your hands but I'm guessing even though you say they are worthless you aren't going to just give them up.

Yeah if I had only known before I bound them so they wouldnt take damage I could sell them for a 10th of there original value, and I would too. Again though as simple as you think it is you keep missing the point that its about trust not loot.

[Jovial]

worth less, not worthless.

I may not trade my wop rapier, but if i did, it'd no longer get me the 48 larges I paid for it.

So are larges safe? Will turbine promise that larges are safe? Could we trust them if they said that? Are they next to go to "even the playing field"?

[KoboldKiller]

If it's about trust then quit. I play to have fun, I don't stress over whether or not what I make today is going to be viable next year because I know things can change. I play for now not tomorrow. If it bothers you that much then you should leave. I don't see this as the tragedy people are making it out to be.

[jakeelala]

So are larges safe? Will turbine promise that larges are safe? Could we trust them if they said that? Are they next to go to "even the playing field"?

you bound +2 tomes?

no wonder you're so upset.

[KoboldKiller]

And as for stuff effecting me I made two min2 axes including wasting 2 full sets of larges making the wrong shard only to have transmuting get changed. I didn't throw a fit or demand my larges back.

[Jovial]

If it's about trust then quit. I play to have fun, I don't stress over whether or not what I make today is going to be viable next year because I know things can change. I play for now not tomorrow. If it bothers you that much then you should leave. I don't see this as the tragedy people are making it out to be.

Thats your Advice? I should quit? They have my prepaid money for 5 more months so until then I shall post away. Although I wont tell you to quit for not liking it ( Im nicer than that)


And as for stuff effecting me I made two min2 axes including wasting 2 full sets of larges making the wrong shard only to have transmuting get changed. I didn't throw a fit or demand my larges back.

I too bit it on the min2s (minus the crafting mistake of course)

[KoboldKiller]

Thats your Advice? I should quit? They have my prepaid money for 5 more months so until then I shall post away. Although I wont tell you to quit for not liking it ( Im nicer than that)



I too bit it on the min2s (minus the crafting mistake of course)

Yes that's my advice. If it's too much of an issue for you to get over and takes away from you enjoying the game then quit. I'm not trying to be mean but it's only a game and not worth stressing out about.

[Phidius]

you bound +2 tomes?

no wonder you're so upset.

We're onto the bigger topic of Nerfs - it's not about the tomes alone, you know.

[Jovial]

Yes that's my advice. If it's too much of an issue for you to get over and takes away from you enjoying the game then quit. I'm not trying to be mean but it's only a game and not worth stressing out about.

Well Ive been playing since beta so I was hoping that turbine would find a way to help me to trust them again somehow before just quitting. I really do love the game but cannot find a way to enjoy playing it anymore. The stress comes from my prepaid status and not being able to switch games for 5 more months since im obviously not going to get this issue addressed. It doesnt help that other players seem to not care when there fellow players get the shaft.

[Dark_Helmet]

The only problem is that Turbine has exhausted that patience with the constant nerfing.

Anyone else get the feeling we're all agreeing, just in a totally unique way?

Like my stack of Irian rez cakes that now do searing light instead of raise dead? The stack of Dal Quor cakes that used to give you some mana and just has wondrous power now??? It isn't like items in my inventory gained some power or change to an equivalent level spell - they got totally got nerfed (probably to force you to buy those from the store). It is a consumable that, just like the tome levels, wasn't game breaking.

Did they run out of inventory objects and they have to reuse the same slots? Really, they didn't: It is just assinine behavior by a company who doesn't care about the current players.

Why do we complain about nerfs? Because maybe someone at the company actually has a heart and will, eventually say "hey, do you think this will hurt the current players? Do we really need to make the change in this manner?"

Until then, it is all a big joke at our expense.

I mean, who thinks up these crappy changes?

/rant off

[eonfreon]

Well Ive been playing since beta so I was hoping that turbine would find a way to help me to trust them again somehow before just quitting. I really do love the game but cannot find a way to enjoy playing it anymore. The stress comes from my prepaid status and not being able to switch games for 5 more months since im obviously not going to get this issue addressed. It doesnt help that other players seem to not care when there fellow players get the shaft.

What is the stress exactly?
You had a stockpile of non-ML Tomes that you were planning on using on all of your future characters?
Or
You had a stockpile of non-ML Tomes you were hoping to be able to sell/trade for higher value then they will be able to command under the new rules?

[smatt]

Wow, very stand-up move Eladrin! :)

[Vordax]

Wow, very stand-up move Eladrin! :)

QFT!

Personally I wish the tomes had min levels since day 1, I have a few min lvl 2 int tomes still so I guess I should go use them soon, nice to have a bit of time for this.

Vordax

[eonfreon]

Like my stack of Irian rez cakes that now do searing light instead of raise dead? The stack of Dal Quor cakes that used to give you some mana and just has wondrous power now??? It isn't like items in my inventory gained some power or change to an equivalent level spell - they got totally got nerfed (probably to force you to buy those from the store). It is a consumable that, just like the tome levels, wasn't game breaking.

Did they run out of inventory objects and they have to reuse the same slots? Really, they didn't: It is just assinine behavior by a company who doesn't care about the current players.

Why do we complain about nerfs? Because maybe someone at the company actually has a heart and will, eventually say "hey, do you think this will hurt the current players? Do we really need to make the change in this manner?"

Until then, it is all a big joke at our expense.

I mean, who thinks up these crappy changes?

/rant off

The more I see these angry posts the more I can understand them.
The idea that the respecs couldn't go on without the sudden need for ML is actually quite laughable. If the system couldn't detect when a player ate a Tome it could just as easily been set up to be ML 1 and presto- no more problem- Tome is assumed at level 1 and no "suppression" necessary.

I'm not against the change. But I have to agree I don't see the point. Since the "offending objects" were unbound +1 and +2 Tomes that could be found outside of Raid chests and End Rewards this attempt at "balance" seems very ill-conceived and unnecessary.

Of course, the fact that AH speculators were all up in arms was rather funny, but now Turbine's goodwill gesture has made the trading channels go nuts. It's quite funny. Feels like the NY stock exchange.

"Unbound - No ML- Ge-uan-ran-teed To Survive the Next Patch or Your Money Back- Tomes. +1's, +2's for all Abilitiy Scores Available!!! What you go? Shroud ingredients? Bloodstones? All Serious Offers Considered!!!

LOL.
Let the AH Games begin!!!

[ArkoHighStar]

The more I see these angry posts the more I can understand them.
The idea that the respecs couldn't go on without the sudden need for ML is actually quite laughable. If the system couldn't detect when a player ate a Tome it could just as easily been set up to be ML 1 and presto- no more problem- Tome is assumed at level 1 and no "suppression" necessary.

I'm not against the change. But I have to agree I don't see the point. Since the "offending objects" were unbound +1 and +2 Tomes that could be found outside of Raid chests and End Rewards this attempt at "balance" seems very ill-conceived and unnecessary.

Of course, the fact that AH speculators were all up in arms was rather funny, but now Turbine's goodwill gesture has made the trading channels go nuts. It's quite funny. Feels like the NY stock exchange.

"Unbound - No ML- Ge-uan-ran-teed To Survive the Next Patch or Your Money Back- Tomes. +1's, +2's for all Abilitiy Scores Available!!! What you go? Shroud ingredients? Bloodstones? All Serious Offers Considered!!!

LOL.
Let the AH Games begin!!!

Its not that they can't setup a system where they log whenyou use a tome, its that they didn't. It wasn'tpartof the original game design, because respec wasn't part oft he original design, soit wasn't necessary, so now they have to shoe horn it in, and so they had to make some compromises

[Khurse]

Its not that they can't setup a system where they log whenyou use a tome, its that they didn't. It wasn'tpartof the original game design, because respec wasn't part oft he original design, soit wasn't necessary, so now they have to shoe horn it in, and so they had to make some compromises

But apparently they don't.

If my lvl 1 toon eats a +2 tome before the next patch he will have (for example) 20 Int on the day after the patch (still at level 1). If I reincarnate him, he will not start with 20 Int,rather getting +1 at lvl 3 and +2 at lvl 7.

If my lvl 1 toon eats a +2 tome after the patch.. well he can't.

They obviously have the mechanism in place to say "you can eat the tome, but if you respec then the bonuses the toon gives will default to the level 3/7/11 etc" But they don't want to use it..
Let me admit here I am not a programmer, and have no experience in it, but I'd assume that if you can have it flagged so my level 1 toon keeps the tome bonus pre patch, they can do it post patch as well.

Please note I have no problem with a respec defaulting tomes to lvl 3/7 etc, and again I don't have a huge problem with the tome nerf. I just don't understand why they're doing it.
Other than to "punish" (as it were) players holding onto the tomes.

[eonfreon]

Its not that they can't setup a system where they log whenyou use a tome, its that they didn't. It wasn'tpartof the original game design, because respec wasn't part oft he original design, soit wasn't necessary, so now they have to shoe horn it in, and so they had to make some compromises

Oh I don't care where they set the line, but the fact is that is doesn't have to be set at Ml 3, 7 etc.

They could have just as easily set it to ML 1.

They didn't. Pretty funny that they've basically said " yeah we're going to change it, but we'll give you this reprieve in a quickly closing window- so exploit and exploit often- eat/sell/trade all the Tomes you can".

LOL.
It is too funny.

[Borror0]

They obviously have the mechanism in place to say "you can eat the tome, but if you respec then the bonuses the toon gives will default to the level 3/7/11 etc" But they don't want to use it..
Maybe they do but they don't "obviously" have it.

It seems that what they are doing is to force start the inherent bonus, manually, which is somehow different than having the ability to make the time behave that way all the time. As a matter of fact, that is the most likely theory. Otherwise, Tolero would not have said that it would me we'd get respec in 2013 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2518279#post2518279).

Please note I have no problem with a respec defaulting tomes to lvl 3/7 etc, and again I don't have a huge problem with the tome nerf. I just don't understand why they're doing it.
Other than to "punish" (as it were) players holding onto the tomes.
The reason that those now have a minimum level and only apply at that level but not before is to avoid imbalances when reincarnating. A mere +1 tome is not really unbalancing and that is why it has a ML of 3 but, as you climb up, it becomes more and more unbalancing. Having +5 tomes for all stats at level 1 would be a huge increase of power, for example.

The effect it has on preexisting tomes is such an unfortunate side effect.

[ZexionII]

Since you have this system in place, that would prevent unfair advantages for people with raid loot who true reincarnate, why is it that people do not get to keep their eaten raid-loot tomes (of course under the same system, with +3 being applied only at level 11, +4 at level 15) when they true reincarnate? Seems quite hypocritical of you. Yes, you get to keep your raid loot, but not tomes (though +3 and higher are, in essence, raid loot). And you have implemented this clever system that prevents true reincarnated characters from getting more skill points than they are supposed to be able to get. And yet you disallow the keeping of tomes, making people do farcical stunts, such as saving a tome they would otherwise have used in their bank.

Can you at least discuss your design reasons behind this choice?

[eonfreon]

The effect it has on preexisting tomes is such an unfortunate side effect.

Yes. But for a Limited Time Old Tomes Will Work Like Before!!! Quick, eat/trade/sell those Tomes now, while Supplies Last!!!
The Trade Channels are alive tonight.

[Borror0]

Yes. But for a Limited Time Old Tomes Will Work Like Before!!! Quick, eat/trade/sell those Tomes now, while Supplies Last!!!
The Trade Channels are alive tonight.
Yes. Until you respec.

In other words, it's just a PR move to reduce complaints and to try to make players realize that Turbine do try to listen to them. In reality, the bonus that players will gain is minor, negligible and will last for a short period of time as they'll probably feel the need to respec within a year.

[Dark_Helmet]

Maybe they do but they don't "obviously" have it.

It seems that what they are doing is to force start the inherent bonus, manually, which is somehow different than having the ability to make the time behave that way all the time. As a matter of fact, that is the most likely theory. Otherwise, Tolero would not have said that it would me we'd get respect in 2013 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2518279#post2518279).


Fixed it for ya!

[eonfreon]

Yes. Until you respec.

In other words, it's just a PR move to reduce complaints and to try to make players realize that Turbine do try to listen to them. In reality, the bonus that players will gain is minor, negligible and will last for a short period of time as they'll probably feel the need to respec within a year.

Yes, it is a pretty funny joke.

I don't care either way. But please, don't say that the ML selected was required to allow respecs to work, I'm sure you'll avoid making such an assertion.
The fact of the matter is that the ML for +1 and +2 Tomes could have been set to ML 2 as easily as 3 and 7 respectively.

Obviously, Turbine determined that this was a better approach. I agree, this way Tomes above +2 don't have to be bound to character to prevent a player from giving it to a new starting characterand unbalancing the game beyond Turbine's control.

It's a lame PR move. Mostly it's to appease the "speculating AH price-gouging types" more then anything. Anyone who was holding onto a non-Ml Tome for a future character is SOL with this change.

But it is fun to see the frenzy and rip-off artists at work.

[Junts]

Oh I don't care where they set the line, but the fact is that is doesn't have to be set at Ml 3, 7 etc.

They could have just as easily set it to ML 1.

They didn't. Pretty funny that they've basically said " yeah we're going to change it, but we'll give you this reprieve in a quickly closing window- so exploit and exploit often- eat/sell/trade all the Tomes you can".

LOL.
It is too funny.

You don't see how its a game balance problem for people to look in a chest, see a +3 int tome, loot it, and immediately do a lesser reincarnation for 23 free skill points?

It incredibly de-values the human skill boost, raising intelligence, and classes with more skill points per level, since it makes it far, far easier to pick up -46- extra skill points on a build through acquriing a +3 or +4 int tome .. even over the 23 from a +2! as designed, odd int chars can get 17 extra skill points and even ones can get 13. That's still a ton of extra skill points, but it's dwarfed compared to either being able to lesser reincarnate and get a free, maxed out skill from acquiring a raid tome. That isn't the purpose of reincarnation, and it's a major fairness/balance issue. No int tome would have been up for roll in a raid for the rest of the history of DDO: it'd either be taken to immediately lesser for free skills, or to use after a true for tons of free skills. In fact, if it applied at level 1 as you suggest, -even a double true reincarnated character would want to save his +4 banked int tome, level to 20, use it and then lesser reincarnate to get 8 free skill points at level 1 that are otherwise totally unavailable!!- This would be completely, utterly ********.

The only way for them to control it was to limit +3 and +4 tomes on reincarnation to have the same value that can be acquired by non-raid loot. Lesser and greater reincarnations are for fixing build mistakes .. they are not intended (like true is) to allow a level 20 character to become better than an equivalent, newly rolled character with identical stats/race/class. With tomes working as you propose, lesser reincarnation would be a free path to massive character improvement, and anyone who had lesser'd with a +3 or 4 tome would be untouchably better than a new character of identical build, until that character also looted a tome and reincarnated.

Do you really think that kind of incentive would be good for DDO? It'd be a moderate disaster.

[eonfreon]

You don't see how its a game balance problem for people to look in a chest, see a +3 int tome, loot it, and immediately do a lesser reincarnation for 23 free skill points?

It incredibly de-values the human skill boost, raising intelligence, and classes with more skill points per level, since it makes it far, far easier to pick up -46- extra skill points on a build through acquriing a +3 or +4 int tome .. even over the 23 from a +2! as designed, odd int chars can get 17 extra skill points and even ones can get 13. That's still a ton of extra skill points, but it's dwarfed compared to either being able to lesser reincarnate and get a free, maxed out skill from acquiring a raid tome. That isn't the purpose of reincarnation, and it's a major fairness/balance issue. No int tome would have been up for roll in a raid for the rest of the history of DDO: it'd either be taken to immediately lesser for free skills, or to use after a true for tons of free skills. In fact, if it applied at level 1 as you suggest, -even a double true reincarnated character would want to save his +4 banked int tome, level to 20, use it and then lesser reincarnate to get 8 free skill points at level 1 that are otherwise totally unavailable!!- This would be completely, utterly ********.

The only way for them to control it was to limit +3 and +4 tomes on reincarnation to have the same value that can be acquired by non-raid loot. Lesser and greater reincarnations are for fixing build mistakes .. they are not intended (like true is) to allow a level 20 character to become better than an equivalent, newly rolled character with identical stats/race/class. With tomes working as you propose, lesser reincarnation would be a free path to massive character improvement, and anyone who had lesser'd with a +3 or 4 tome would be untouchably better than a new character of identical build, until that character also looted a tome and reincarnated.

Do you really think that kind of incentive would be good for DDO? It'd be a moderate disaster.

And I was talking about +1 and +2 Tomes, which were the only ones that could be found unbound before. Thus +1 and +2 Tomes were not a problem before.

And again, not the point. The point is: They are going to change it, but as a stupid PR move, here all you folks that have been hoarding it- sell and or use/trade as quick as possible.

+1 and +2 Tomes could have been set to ML 1 and the other Tomes could have been set to whatever else was deemed "appropriate".

Hey, if ML 2 for +1 Tomes and ML 7 for +2 Tomes is deemed balancing, then I'm fine with it, I'm just tired of the malarkey being spouted that those values were required for "respecs" to work.

[Junts]

And I was talking about +1 and +2 Tomes, which were the only ones that could be found unbound before. Thus +1 and +2 Tomes were not a problem before.

And again, not the point. The point is: They are going to change it, but as a stupid PR move, here all you folks that have been hoarding it- sell and or use/trade as quick as possible.

+1 and +2 Tomes could have been set to ML 1 and the other Tomes could have been set to whatever else was deemed "appropriate".

Hey, if ML 2 for +1 Tomes and ML 7 for +2 Tomes is deemed balancing, then I'm fine with it, I'm just tired of the malarkey being spouted that those values were required for "respecs" to work.

You're not accounting for the fact that reincarnating with those tomes and reciving their bonuses at level 1 is still more skill points than was acheivable when you could only use the tome after you left creation!

And the added sp advantage was not entirely desirable; further, this system gives them a framework to use to allow people to recieve retroactive skill points for tome use, which I suspect is something they'd really like to do.

[eonfreon]

You're not accounting for the fact that reincarnating with those tomes and reciving their bonuses at level 1 is still more skill points than was acheivable when you could only use the tome after you left creation!

And the added sp advantage was not entirely desirable; further, this system gives them a framework to use to allow people to recieve retroactive skill points for tome use, which I suspect is something they'd really like to do.

Sigh, if it's ML 1 you can only eat it at Level 1 and get the benefit at level 2- just like before!!!
And guess what, if the ML on +1 and +2 Tomes was set to level 1, the same "framework to allow people to receive retroactive skill points for tome use" would be in effect.
The difference would be that instead of applying at levels 4 and 8, they would apply at level 2.

[Cuth]

If this works how it sounds like it works, this is a good, fair change.

Thank you for listening to our feedback.

[Borror0]

I don't care either way. But please, don't say that the ML selected was required to allow respecs to work, I'm sure you'll avoid making such an assertion.
I am not sure to what you're alluding to here.

Obviously, it was not necessary to do that for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation to mechanically work but, as Junts explained in details, it was one of many components of a good implementation of the the Lesser and Greater Reincarnation mechanism. As a result, Turbine "needed" to implement such a minimum level. The fact that existing tomes are also affected is just collateral damage because of the way the game is programmed.

It's a lame PR move. Mostly it's to appease the "speculating AH price-gouging types" more then anything.
I don't see why you're faulting Turbine for trying to appease the anger of their customers by taking a decision that will have no negative consequence for the game in the medium and long term. To me, it just seems the obvious thing to do...

[eonfreon]

I am not sure to what you're alluding to here.

Obviously, it was not necessary to do that for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation to mechanically work but, as Junts explained in details, it was one of many components of a good implementation of the the Lesser and Greater Reincarnation mechanism. As a result, Turbine "needed" to implement such a minimum level. The fact that existing tomes are also affected is just collateral damage because of the way the game is programmed.

Oh really? It had to have a minimum level of 3 and 7 respectively? The system wouldn't have worked if it had been set to level 1?
Don't throw in +3 and above, those were bound to begin with and even if they wanted to start dropping unbound +3 then they could have set those at whatever ML they wanted. The fact is they didn't have to set the ML to what they did to make the system function, they just chose to.
I don't mind, seems fair to me, but I please back off from the "it had to be set at this ML to work', because it isn't true.



I don't see why you're faulting Turbine for trying to appease the anger of their customers by taking a decision that will have no negative consequence for the game in the medium and long term. To me, it just seems the obvious thing to do...


Not faulting them, but if this move has "no negative consequences for the game in the medium and long term" then why is the ML on +1 and +2 Tomes such a necessity to game balance?

It's okay to eat them now and get the benefits, but not later?
Kinda should get the story straight first.

[Junts]

Oh really? It had to have a minimum level of 3 and 7 respectively? The system wouldn't have worked if it had been set to level 1?
Don't throw in +3 and above, those were bound to begin with and even if they wanted to start dropping unbound +3 then they could have set those at whatever ML they wanted. The fact is they didn't have to set the ML to what they did to make the system function, they just chose to.
I don't mind, seems fair to me, but I please back off from the "it had to be set at this ML to work', because it isn't true.





Not faulting them, but if this move has "no negative consequences for the game in the medium and long term" then why is the ML on +1 and +2 Tomes such a necessity to game balance?

It's okay to eat them now and get the benefits, but not later?
Kinda should get the story straight first.

Because any character using one now, before reincarnation, may in fact get a bonus that can never be gotten again, but that's also ok because that character cannot ever have been true reincarnated, and therefore is 4 build points worse. For a vast majority of characters, in fact, a 2nd true reincarnation could start with 2 more intel, get more benefit than the original +2 no ml tomes, and still get 2 more build points to spend, and then use a normal tome as well .. in other words, characters made with this advantage will not be the 'best characters on DDO', so their strength is not an issue. However, if you were able to do this with fresh true reincarnated characters, then a lot of veterans with multiple no ml +2 ints (like me) would have true reincarnated toons that were better off in an unreachable way than any new player's character could ever be.

Un-replacable advantages for chars that aren't true reincarnated are not a major game balance issue, because those characters will be superceded .. that wouldn't be true if true reincarnators could use 'em.

[Borror0]

It had to have a minimum level of 3 and 7 respectively?
It could have been any other MLs but 3 and 7 were among the most elegant and best choices.

I don't mind, seems fair to me, but I please back off from the "it had to be set at this ML to work', because it isn't true.
I never said that. I said other things that have some similarity to what you say I said but I didn't say that.

Not faulting them, but if this move has "no negative consequences for the game in the medium and long term" then why is the ML on +1 and +2 Tomes such a necessity to game balance?
The reason is not that it will have no effect in the meidum or long term is not because the bonuses are meaningless.

Lesser and Greater Reincarnation reapply the tomes according to their ML even if the tome you ate had no ML. True Reincarnations wipes all tomes. As a result, it will have no effect in the medium or long term as characters respec or become superseded by more powerful characters.

[eonfreon]

Because any character using one now, before reincarnation, may in fact get a bonus that can never be gotten again, but that's also ok because that character cannot ever have been true reincarnated, and therefore is 4 build points worse. For a vast majority of characters, in fact, a 2nd true reincarnation could start with 2 more intel, get more benefit than the original +2 no ml tomes, and still get 2 more build points to spend, and then use a normal tome as well .. in other words, characters made with this advantage will not be the 'best characters on DDO', so their strength is not an issue. However, if you were able to do this with fresh true reincarnated characters, then a lot of veterans with multiple no ml +2 ints (like me) would have true reincarnated toons that were better off in an unreachable way than any new player's character could ever be.

Un-replacable advantages for chars that aren't true reincarnated are not a major game balance issue, because those characters will be superceded .. that wouldn't be true if true reincarnators could use 'em.

Well that makes sense. Thank you.

That's fine. Turbine believes that +1 and +2 Tomes should not be used before levels 3 and 7 respectively. And since they don't want to rock the boat too much they've decided to allow the old effect (but not the old Tomes) for those that have already eaten the Tomes because they have it set up that you'll have to voluntarily give it up to "progress" further in "power".

Nicely done. I like it.

I especially like the feeding frenzy set off by this.

It's very amusing.

[stoc]

Obviously, it was not necessary to do that for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation to mechanically work but, as Junts explained in details, it was one of many components of a good implementation of the the Lesser and Greater Reincarnation mechanism. As a result, Turbine "needed" to implement such a minimum level. The fact that existing tomes are also affected is just collateral damage because of the way the game is programmed.

I don't see why you're faulting Turbine for trying to appease the anger of their customers by taking a decision that will have no negative consequence for the game in the medium and long term. To me, it just seems the obvious thing to do...

http://standupforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/soapbox.jpg

May as well give up now the box has arrived and he is on it yet again!

[smatt]

wait did he just list +5 tomes:eek:


In time in time... Likely update 2 or 3 raid..... Since +4's just came out will likely still be a bit.

[smatt]

That's one of the laws: (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml)
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with.

Yeah but it would have never happened was reincarnation not implemented.


This is why I'm kind of laughing..... A good portion of the ****ed people are also the ones that posted for 674,000,000,000 posts in 1,00,001 threads wanting a Respec... Not all but a good number at least. I think this is a good middle ground on tomes. They've tried o work it out as best they can.

[smatt]

So are larges safe? Will turbine promise that larges are safe? Could we trust them if they said that? Are they next to go to "even the playing field"?


Nope, they won't why? Because the game is full of complicated interacting code as is basically a living thing that will continue to change in expected and unexpected ways. Now it you want a static game perhaps a store bought single player complete game is the way to go. This game has changed fom inception, things have been nerfed, things have been over-powered.... It's just the way it is... Sometimes the "vocal" players can get them to change the changes sometimes they can't. now if you've been playing since Beta as I think you wrote somewhere back there.. You'd know this has always been, and alwasy will be..... Nwo, I'm not saying I always liek the changes they make.. Some realyl suck as far as I'm concerned... BUT I think since the mess of last spring, and how they've handled the Lama discussions, and asked for feedback, and in many cases worked that feedback into the game, as bes they could... They do have more of an ear to the ground than they ever have.... They can only do so much... They're the ones fronting the millions of dollars... We may be paying them to play.... But we aren't gambling millions on the game.....

[transtemporal]

wait did he just list +5 tomes:eek:

He did. :)

[tihocan]

They obviously have the mechanism in place to say "you can eat the tome, but if you respec then the bonuses the toon gives will default to the level 3/7/11 etc" But they don't want to use it..
Most likely they didn't implement such a mechanism (which would have been a good way to do things if they had wanted to keep the no ML tomes around). Instead it loooks like they changed the way inherent bonuses are handled, to cap them depending on your level. The reason why they can change it on next patch could be for instance because they can make the patch override the cap once, but it's only safe to do so before reincarnation is added to the game (otherwise, reincarnated characters would also get the benefits of tomes early).

[Jovial]

Its not even like I waste my time nursing a group through the first 9 levels anyway why does turbine have to "balance the playing field". Now the people who couldnt do it well feel better about themselfs and those of us who worked hard and got it right have to suffer. why dont you just give the gimps an extra +6 on every roll they make and leave my hard earned equipment alone?

[Dark_Helmet]

This is why I'm kind of laughing..... A good portion of the ****ed people are also the ones that posted for 674,000,000,000 posts in 1,00,001 threads wanting a Respec... Not all but a good number at least. I think this is a good middle ground on tomes. They've tried o work it out as best they can.

Uh yeah, some of us didn't want reincarnate and are affected.

So, what is wrong with them expanding the database with a new column that tracks reincarnate (oh yeah, they did that so you can select a Past Life feat), then checks - as you level - if the tome applies at that level (say, level 3, 7, 11, 14, 19 just like it checks if you get a feat at a particular level). If you haven't reincarnated, tomes just apply when you munch them at that time and from then on. So, those of us not reincarnating, can use their tome at 1st level and be happy. This could simply be a "side effect" of the reincarnating process - not a nerf to all players.

Tomes have been around for years and didn't have a minimum level when you could use them.

If we blindly accept these nerf changes, they will get worse. If we at least resist and provide feedback, maybe, just maybe, they might actually start thinking of their audience and what impact it is before they implement the change.

[Ladywolf]

If we have eaten a +2 intelligence tome and want to get the skill points, I understand that we eat it before the nerf, and we don't level until after the next patch. However, WHEN is that next patch as that means I can't level 4 of my characters until then...

[Dark_Helmet]

If we have eaten a +2 intelligence tome and want to get the skill points, I understand that we eat it before the nerf, and we don't level until after the next patch. However, WHEN is that next patch as that means I can't level 4 of my characters until then...

You have to reroll all the time, so it won't affect you for long. :D

PS - don't forget to add your chat channels each time you re-roll! :p

[Khurse]

Maybe they do but they don't "obviously" have it.

It seems that what they are doing is to force start the inherent bonus, manually, which is somehow different than having the ability to make the time behave that way all the time. As a matter of fact, that is the most likely theory. Otherwise, Tolero would not have said that it would me we'd get respec in 2013 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2518279#post2518279).

The reason that those now have a minimum level and only apply at that level but not before is to avoid imbalances when reincarnating. A mere +1 tome is not really unbalancing and that is why it has a ML of 3 but, as you climb up, it becomes more and more unbalancing. Having +5 tomes for all stats at level 1 would be a huge increase of power, for example.

The effect it has on preexisting tomes is such an unfortunate side effect.


Again not how I see it.

And the whole"+5 tomes at level 1" thing is kinda disingenious.
Any tomes that drop now (including the mythical +4 or +5) will be bound to certain levels. Fine.
I have no problems at all with putting minimum levels on tomes.As I've mentioned I have few (minor) issues with
the way this was done.
AgIn (for a lvl 1)
If had eaten a no ML+2 tome right after the update, I'd not gain the benefit. Now if I eat a +2 tome I will, until the update. This tome will continue to add +2 to my score at level 1 (assuming I don't level)even after reincarantion is introduced. This will be kept by the character until I decide to reincarnate them

This say (to me anyway) that despite the bug that makes it a necessity that the no ML tomes are given ML's because the system won't know what's going on, that indeed apparently the system can handle a toon lower than 7th level eating a + 2 tome.

I'm not saying that a toon who eats a no ml tome and reincarnates should get the bonus at level 1, and I completely believe that levels 3 and 7 (or whatver) are fine.

I do not believe them when they essentially say
1) Your toons have lost the tome bonus if you've eaten tomes before the new levels because of how the respec mechanism has to work. It's a bug,nothing we can do, sorry.

2) Remember that bug we couldn't do anything about? Well it's not really a bug,apparently we can have your toons eat a no ml tome at any level before the next patch, they'll get the bonus when they eat it,and they'll keep it until they reincarnate.

3) But after that patch? Well sir that bug will be back and all your tomes will have ML's. Sounds odd I know , but it's a bug and we can't do anything about it..

If Turbine wants to come out and say "Not may people are buying tomes from the store, Plat farmers are selling no ML tomes by the hundreds" or "We felt it was incredibly unfair that newer players/older players who had less time to play might not have built up a collection of tomes" or even "We really hate that Khurse guy, and he's got a bank full of no ml tomes so we want to punish him" I'd be cool with it. (Well I might feel a bit hurt after the last one)

Again I'm glad respec is coming, I think it's better for the game. And given the very few new toons I start, and the fact tha I do have enough plat to pretty much buy anyting I'm going to find (aside from hundreds of scales)on the AH I don't really mind one way or the other. I'm not quitting the game or anything.

But the idea that they can't just leave existing no ml tomes as is, and then engineer them to apply at levels 3 and 7 when/if reincarnated is suspect, because by their own information, they can.

[Borror0]

If had eaten a no ML+2 tome right after the update, I'd not gain the benefit. Now if I eat a +2 tome I will, until the update. This tome will continue to add +2 to my score at level 1 (assuming I don't level)even after reincarantion is introduced. This will be kept by the character until I decide to reincarnate them
If you ate a no-ML tome before the update or eat one now, you won't gain the inherent bonus if you're under the ML for that benefit (ML 3 for +1; ML 7 for +2). At the next patch, Turbine will force the bonus to apply for all characters that had ate a a no-ML tome before that upcoming patch. This bonus will be kept until the character reincarnates.

This say (to me anyway) that despite the bug that makes it a necessity that the no ML tomes are given ML's because the system won't know what's going on, that indeed apparently the system can handle a toon lower than 7th level eating a + 2 tome.
Correct but it does not mean they can fix the bug. It means that they have found a workaround to forcefully apply the bonus with a patch.

That's completely different than a being able to fix the bug.

But the idea that they can't just leave existing no ml tomes as is, and then engineer them to apply at levels 3 and 7 when/if reincarnated is suspect, because by their own information, they can.
No, they own information does not say that.

If you think it does, it also means you think a car's dead battery can be recharged by jump starting the car once.

[Khurse]

It means that toons that eat a no ml tome before the patch can be flagged to have their bonus still apply, and yet be flagged so the game knows they ate a tome after reincarantion. They haven't said "Yes you can eat the tome, but you have to be level 7 when the patch hts or you lose it.

So what do we know about the bug"fix/workaround"?
That there is a mechanism in place that lets a toon be flagged as having eaten a no ML tome (and keep the bonuses) and be flagged so the game knows how to deal with this toon if reincaranted.

After the patch?

There will be a mechanism in place that lets a toon be flagged as having eaten a no ml tome (and keep the bonuses) and be flagged so the game knows how to deal with this toon if reincaranted.

So, in conclusion
There is a mechanism in place that can do what they say they can't do.
It's binary (as I understand it).
Toon flagged to have bonus of no ML +2 tome before level 7? Y/N.

Whether or not they're forcing it/seducing it/making sweet,sweet, love to it, the fact is that there is going to be some sort of flag on toons that says " +2 tome bonus on this character before level 7, apply bonus at levels 3 and 7 if reincarnated"

[Borror0]

It's binary (as I understand it).
You understand incorrectly. It's not binary.

As I said earlier, if you think it's binary, it also means you think a car's dead battery can be recharged by jump starting the car once.

[lostkoss]

I think some of you should give all your plat and worldly possessions to the poor.

Delete all of your characters and start over.

Then the game can be fun again.

You won't have to worry about anything then.


Honestly some of you sound like the bank executives crying that they are only getting 5 million in bonuses this year instead of 10 million.

You already have so much. Why cry?

[Harncw]

Since I got negative rep'd for my sarcasm above... I thought I would return to this fiasco to attempt to clearly state my thoughts...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/2311882522_87c88d4349.jpg

It would have been nicer if you guys had communicated clearly to the community before the horse was out of barn.

[Mylon]

So how does this work? If a person eats a +3 tome and then reincarnates, do they get +1 at level 3, then +2 at level 7, and so on? Or do they only get all of the +3 at once? Do they even retain the tome bonus or must they buy another?

[Sillk]

So is the Monday the "PATCH" that fixes the tomes?

[Sillk]

Woops, nevermind. This isn't the "PATCH"

[Clay]

Thank you Eladrin, that is a very nice change.

/bow

[Nodoze]

Do we have an ETA for the patch?

Sucks to have toons just sitting there waiting...

[moomooprincess]

I did not consume my tomes on Ghallanda because they had been nerfed. So my library of +1 and +2 tomes on Ghallanda I was given a chance to consume a second time.

But since they nerfed them I did not bother.

Now, I had a chance to do it again at low level, but I am nerfed again.

Hmmm, maybe a new character is in order for me.

Nerfed Tomeeater

Oh well. I will be nerfed again, so I am already over it.

[Nodoze]

I am thinking of starting one more level 1 and putting a +2 tome on him. Is this still doable?

Any word as to when the patch is expected to come (I realize that nothing is for sure) so we can start levelign these characters?

[helterskelter]

are tomes gonna be changed tomorrow?

[Nodoze]

I just logged in after the patching and see my +2s.

I think this fix has been applied...

[Barumar]

I just logged in after the patching and see my +2s.

I think this fix has been applied...

Oh good! I really miss my extra 2 in INT for my Wizi-Rogue and Rogue waiting to start taking Ranger levels! I think he has enough XP for lvl 3 as well :).

Has anyone actually leveled a 'stalled' character yet to see if the extra skill points are applying properly? I only ask as if there is an issue with the patch I will wait for the hotfix to the patch for Update 1 before I level up :D.

Barumar

[Nodoze]

...Has anyone actually leveled a 'stalled' character yet to see if the extra skill points are applying properly? I only ask as if there is an issue with the patch I will wait for the hotfix to the patch for Update 1 before I level up :D.Good point. Has anyone leveled since the patch been able to confirm that skill points due to extra intelligence are showing up?

EDIT: Confirmed it worked on my level 1 going to Level 2 after the patch as I was able to see and use the extra skill point.

[Naitcralr]

Can anybody tell me what happend, when I use a (Greater) Druidic Heart of Wood AFTER using a tome?
Does I get the Bonus (up to +2 to all stats from the DDO-store) with level 7, will it aplly at char generation ... or in worst case - does it vanquishd and I have to buy new tomes??????

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can anybody tell me what happend, when I use a (Greater) Druidic Heart of Wood AFTER using a tome?
Does I get the Bonus (up to +2 to all stats from the DDO-store) with level 7, will it aplly at char generation ... or in worst case - does it vanquishd and I have to buy new tomes??????

For True Reincarnation, all tomes are lost.

For Lesser & Greater all used tomes are kept and reapplied automatically as you relevel. So for a +3 tome, you get credit for +1 at L3, +2 at L7, +3 at L11.

[Naitcralr]

For True Reincarnation, all tomes are lost.

For Lesser & Greater all used tomes are kept and reapplied automatically as you relevel. So for a +3 tome, you get credit for +1 at L3, +2 at L7, +3 at L11.

thx a lot - puuuuhhhh, I still saw my ddo-points flow twice away :)