Retroactive Tome Change

[Tarrant]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

For more information about the changes and pre-patch Tomes, please see Eladrin's discussion in the official discussion forums by clicking here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=210782).

[totmacher]

Do Not Want :(

[Mav145]

Eh....minor inconvenience.

[KoboldKiller]

Oh well.

[Grimgore]

Ummm, so why was this not discussed prior to the update going live? I did not see anything for this in the Lama notes, did I miss something or is this going to fall into the conspiracy theory threads?

[Saaluta]

/snip

Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

No need for thanks, we're used to being nerf...inconvenienced by now :mad:

Saal :(

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Thank goodness you told us before....the MOD....hi....nm.

[KoboldKiller]

Actually this was hinted at by several people including threads being started in order to acquire said tomes to be used prior to the update. Makes sense to me as I'm sure it has something to do with the coding.

[totmacher]

i guess it's not like we didn't see this coming. this was known from llama

[Phidius]

Words fail me, but then again, so does Turbine.

[Phidius]

Actually this was hinted at by several people including threads being started in order to acquire said tomes to be used prior to the update. Makes sense to me as I'm sure it has something to do with the coding.

Tomes came with a minimum level before Update 1, and older tomes still worked as expected. This was a deliberate nerf, make no mistake.

[rimble]

I like it. I've never been a fan of having different equipment in the game. All changes should be retroactive, no grandfathering. Barbarians should have had their Enhancements reset.

That's right, I said it. The rules should be as the rules are, not varying degrees of grandfathered in mess.

[Emili]

Yes, we knew this was comming... and as such so many who had the free time took advantage rushed out to get their skill points and right -sized, feat(with stat dependent) builds in... i.e. itwf, gtwf in an earlier feat slot then others may be forced into...

i.e.
1. All who ate a +2 int tome at level one and ran to level 7 quicly prior to change have +6 more skill points.

2. twf fighters

ITWF Summary: Dexterity 17, Base Attack Bonus +6, Two Weapon Fighting

Two different people building one day before yesterday ...
Fighter A.
Str 18
Dex 15 +2 dex tome

and level 6 feat = ITWF

Figther B - rolled today
Str 18
Dex 15 +2 dex tome

and level 6 feat = ITWF? no -> SOL ... wait till later toss a filler feat here now or lower your str to get it early.

So lets say you greater reincarnate... well maybe that fighter you had placed a Dex 14 on and ate a plus +3 dex tome and then spec'd ITWF at Fred into a level six feat slot is now screwed if all you wished to do was move a point or two in some other stats.

[Cortho]

You mean I spent all that plat to accuire no min lvl +2 tomes, even traded 2 for 1 for those +2 int tomes for xtra skill points on new toons and now they are nerfed?,

Thanks ddo

[KoboldKiller]

http://lolcrafts.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/0005.jpg

[dranreb]

It's not April 1st, so I have no explanation for this announcement.

Well, there goes quite a bit of plat out the window.

[Hokiewa]

LMAO! Another sir, another!

[Quikster]

There were several threads discussing this, not sure why anyone is surprised........

[Cortho]

I'm still waiting to pimp my warforge

[Gornn]

They didn't want you to use your +2 tomes before the new mod.

That's why they didn't tell you. Nuff said.

[Club'in]

I'm not following what this has to do with reincarnation. But then again, I'm not involved with the test server. So, did you lose tomes upon reincarnation before? But now, you won't lose the tomes, but you won't regain the benefit until the appropriate level?

[KoboldKiller]

http://blogs.uct.ac.za/gallery/669/You_did_what.jpg

[Cedwin]

I'm not following what this has to do with reincarnation. But then again, I'm not involved with the test server. So, did you lose tomes upon reincarnation before? But now, you won't lose the tomes, but you won't regain the benefit until the appropriate level?

People spent a ton of money buying +2 tomes that had no minimum level, instead of buying normal +2 tomes with a min level 7 on them.. But now that +2 tomes don't take effect until level 7 anyways, they wasted money. It's not like there isn't enough plat in the economy anyways, I don't see what the big deal is. "Oh noes, now I can't spend plat on, er, nevermind, I have nothing to buy."

[sirgog]

I like it. I've never been a fan of having different equipment in the game. All changes should be retroactive, no grandfathering. Barbarians should have had their Enhancements reset.

That's right, I said it. The rules should be as the rules are, not varying degrees of grandfathered in mess.


Agreed. Although Barb crit rage is less of an issue as it is now quite a weak choice.

Brilliant change - this goes someway toward removing some of the advantages long term players had over new players that the new players could never, ever catch up. Now, new players will be able to, though skillful play and/or determination, obtain almost everything that us old timers have.

I lose out on a couple of the tomes I had banked, but I'm happy to suffer a small loss to fix a game imbalance issue.

[Thanimal]

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

I completely support the spirit of this change, as I recognize it as important for game balance and MUCH more importantly as a prerequisite to a deperately needed respec system.

HOWEVER, is the above exactly correct? Why wouldn't it apply the 1st point at level 1, just like a +1 Tome does? Seems really odd to eat a Tome and have NOTHING happen...

Or did +1 Tomes move to min level 3 without me noticing? And if so, why? See "eating Tome and nothing happens" confusion...

[KoboldKiller]

I completely support the spirit of this change, as I recognize it as important for game balance and MUCH more importantly as a prerequisite to a deperately needed respec system.

HOWEVER, is the above exactly correct? Why wouldn't it apply the 1st point at level 1, just like a +1 Tome does? Seems really odd to eat a Tome and have NOTHING happen...

Or did +1 Tomes move to min level 3 without me noticing? And if so, why? See "eating Tome and nothing happens" confusion...

Yes they are level 3.

[doppleganger]

Or did +1 Tomes move to min level 3 without me noticing?

You win!

oh, and I agree with the change, too.

[KoboldKiller]

http://www.butteredwaffles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/128340218662187500khaaan.jpg

[ArkoHighStar]

The only tome this truly affects is int tomes as they had a direct affect on skills. otherwise you were only affected if you were using a tome to gain access to a feat earlier than you normally would if you used the tome at 3 or 7.

That being said, the question is will only the no min lvl tomes apply as you level, or will the new tomes also allow you to use them at lvl 1.

[xman26]

Agreed. Although Barb crit rage is less of an issue as it is now quite a weak choice.

Brilliant change - this goes someway toward removing some of the advantages long term players had over new players that the new players could never, ever catch up. Now, new players will be able to, though skillful play and/or determination, obtain almost everything that us old timers have.

I lose out on a couple of the tomes I had banked, but I'm happy to suffer a small loss to fix a game imbalance issue.

Yeah right, When was the last time you looked at thedrop rate of some of the items in this game. Bloodstones anyone? A few of the Titan named items which almost never fall. I could go on here.

[kruggar]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.

[Memnir]

It's a fair change - but we should have been told.

And by fair, I'm not saying I like it in any way, shape, or form - but I understand why it was done.

[ArkoHighStar]

I'm not following what this has to do with reincarnation. But then again, I'm not involved with the test server. So, did you lose tomes upon reincarnation before? But now, you won't lose the tomes, but you won't regain the benefit until the appropriate level?

the reason they are doing this is to establish a standard behaviour for appling tomes as you level. With lesser and greater reincarnation, turbine had no way of know whether your+3 tome was use at lvl 1 or lvl 18, so they came up with a structure to have the points apply as you retrain at the min lvl assigned


So it works like this

If you had a +3 tome on wis and a base score of 18 and you did a lesser reincarnation, as you talk to trainer and revel up your wis woul look like this

lvl 1 18
lvl 2 18
lvl 3 19
lvl 4 19
lvl 5 19
lvl 6 19
lvl 7 20
lvl 8 20
lvl 9 20
lvl 10 20
lvl 11 20
lvl 12 20
lvl 13 21
lvl 14 21
etc.

[ArkoHighStar]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.

no this is incorrect if you create a new character today and use a no min lvl +1 tome it will only be applied at lvl 3.

You are correct characters already created should not have this issue.

[smatt]

It was reproted from Lama on Oct 25th... After the last update..... By PLAYERS :cool:



Many veterans were screaming for a Respec, well they got one... But with that comes such nerfy type thigns such as this... I guess it's a fair trade off... :cool:

[kruggar]

my mistake.. and yes stealth nerf bat then..

this is diferent from what was discussed in lamania

[ArkoHighStar]

It was reproted from Lama on Oct 25th... After the last update..... By PLAYERS :cool:



Many veterans were screaming for a Respec, well they got one... But with that comes such nerfy type thigns such as this... I guess it's a fair trade off... :cool:

agreed not a fan, as I did stock up on some of these tomes, but if it gets me respec then I can bite the bullet

[smatt]

my mistake.. and yes stealth nerf bat then..

this is diferent from what was discussed in lamania


Nope, this is exactly what was discussed....

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=209675

[smatt]

It's a fair change - but we should have been told.

And by fair, I'm not saying I like it in any way, shape, or form - but I understand why it was done.


I agree, and while I knew about it from the lama post here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=209675

I find it intersting how Turbine decided NOT to actualyl say it.. They let a player figure it out after the last Lama update... It's not int he release notes, only Tarrant came out after the fact and posted this thread... So why did they do this? Hmm,probably to put off the complaining as long as possible... Or maybe to keep as many players as possible from rolling toons up pre-update.. Not sure...

I might add that there were MANY peopel who spent a considerable amount of in game resources on no-min level tomes in thelast couple of months... Only to be screwed over by this change that Turbine KNEW they were implementing.. Yes, some peopel came out a head, and some were loosers...
I stayed aways formthe whole thing luckily for me.. I kept what I had as far as tomes go, I even sold a couple.... But man some peopel spent a lot....

.... Poor form Turbine, poor form....

[Beld]

but as has been the ongoing view on these forums, as there is little difference between 28 pt and 32 pt builds, that it is the player and not the build, et al, what's the big deal.....finding new ways to do old things keeps the game growing and evolving....otherwise, you would have 5 servers full of the same toons, with the same items and using the same tactics.....that would equal a pretty poor game and a very dead game very quickly.

oh and DooooOOOOOooooOOOOoooommmmMMMMmmMMMMM!!

What is said to new players every time they complain about not having things that vets get, it really isn't that big of a deal right, well, it really isn't that big of a deal and has been discussed over the last couple of weeks, so as with the rush to buy/sell WoP before the last patch, same thing, buyer beware and all.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.

Ummm Im not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken.

And this change doesn't matter to me one way or another, but it would be nice to give people advanced notice. There were a lot of people holding tomes for reincarnating.

[Gol]

So much for starting with 14-15 dex on non-Ranger TWF characters (and getting ITWF @ 6, anyway)...

[bobbryan2]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

Good change, grandfathering is rarely good game-design.

[adamkatt]

I'm still waiting to pimp my warforge

Me to! I still want my tripple gold ds for feet!

[Tolero]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug. Unfortunately it's not one that we can fix due to complications with reincarnation. The only bright side to the dark cloud is it allows you to receive the benefits over time rather than just not at all (example: a +4 tome tome with no minimum level will grant the bonus over time the moment you are eligible for each of the stat increases, rather than making you wait for any bonus at all until you were the min level required for +4).

[Junts]

So much for starting with 14-15 dex on non-Ranger TWF characters (and getting ITWF @ 6, anyway)...

I wonder how this impacts swapping in feats at lower levels that the tome would qualify you for; this could really break a lot of characters.

Is it possible, Merlerorrantask, that they could at least ensure that a level 20 character who uses a +3 intelligence tome to get to 13 is able to swap in combat expertise at a level below 11?

That effect on character play is a lot more significant than the loss of a few skill points due to a finite number of +2 tomes; it would do a serious number on player ability to qualify for feats with tomes.

[adm5893]

Tomes came with a minimum level before Update 1, and older tomes still worked as expected. This was a deliberate nerf, make no mistake.

Ever since you pulled MY boots, I have lost faith in you.

;);)

[DasLurch]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

Tarrant, 1st off, I'd like to say I'm sorryyou are the one that drew the sort straw in this. Now that that is done, on with the flames...

This is just really dissappointing. I want to see how this was change was made to benefit us all. I just can't see it. All I see is that it was a short cut for a programmer in making something else he was trying to do easier. I'm suprised that this got past your QA people, and that it was put into the live update. I think it just stinks. One of the nice things about playing for so long was that I had gained a few items that were desirable at this point. While this doesn't really effect the items being less effective, it does change their intrinsic worth. There was only ever going to be a diminishing amount of them in game (ML 1 tomes), and they would have been weeded out eventually over time. I know they are far from worthless now, but there is a bit of diminished returns on these now.

Am I sad because I am still holding a few of the old tomes? Sure, but it's not what really gets me frustrated. What really does this is, once again, your long time players are being treated like little chidren that can't handle the news. It would have been much more mature to let people know this was OFFICIALLY COMING before the update. Yes, BEFORE!!! Again, there also was a very small amount of communication regarding this coming (mostly from the community at that). If there was a post/announcement about this change explaing that it was for implementation of the re-incarnation mechanic, and it was the most effective way to implement it, fine. But instead it was hidden and avoided until the last minute because it would show a bit of disregaurd towards the old playerbase. Maybe it has nothing to do with it, and I'm way off base. It just seems like, once again, the playerbase is being treated as if we are people to keep things hidden from. We play the game because we like it. It's fantastic. It's always great to get more. I've been here since launch because I like to be here. If we would have been informed about this change eventually coming down the line, I wouldn't be too peeved about it. Bummed because something I was planning on making use of was being diminished, yes. Bit I could have planned for it, I could have made use of my well won rewards and made good on them. I get that changes need to happen to keep the game "fresh and challenging". I just wish you would have told us BEFORE it happened. I know I need to grow up because it's only a game, but in this I'm not alone now.

And most importantly, I wouldn't feel like I was being treated like a 5 year old that has to wear velro shoes because I'm such an Idoit that I can't tie my own laces.

I'm excited about the update, but this sort of treatment still leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Thanks for being the official bearer of bad news Tarrant (it is sort of your job I guess), but I hope you could pass on some of the sentiment back to those that need to hear this.

[jmonty]

is anyone really surprised?

[Emili]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.
But can and will yield some very frustrated players who do see the reincarnation features as some sort of tweak fixing...


I.E. a simple 28 point pre-mod tank...
Started stats 16 14 12 14 10 8

Tomed it over time - raided +3 str +3 dex
Added GTWF and is a pretty decent intimitank to boot.

... but the strength a little lacking... and just recieved a +4 int tome in TOD...

This person may think WOW!
The numbers 18 14 14 10 10 8 seem more inviting... and greater reincarnates.

Guess what? they cannot fit in and take their same feat chains while reincarnating... plus they just lost 12 skill points - which they kind of new they would. But the build is entirely ruined feat-wise had they Improved Trip and GTWF before as they must now decide TWF or CE + improved trip but not both... thus where they thought they saw an opportunity for 23 more HP and +1 to-hit/+1 damage screwed them out of their previous feats. Now that it's screwed up with feats he did not want? What is the suggestion? Multiple trips to Fred?

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

Sounds to me like we may get our eaten tomes back after reincarnation now. That would be fantastic.

[chester99]

looks like the dice came up FAIL again down at the turbine. You guys should see if those things are weighted or something.... FAIL comes up waaay too often in your design-by-dice methodology.

[DasLurch]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug. Unfortunately it's not one that we can fix due to complications with reincarnation. The only bright side to the dark cloud is it allows you to receive the benefits over time rather than just not at all (example: a +4 tome tome with no minimum level will grant the bonus over time the moment you are eligible for each of the stat increases, rather than making you wait for any bonus at all until you were the min level required for +4).


No, that is the effect of the BUG!

[cypan41]

utter cr*p. Rumors yes, word from devs no. Waste of a ton of plat. Thanks a friggin lot... :mad::mad::mad:

[Phidius]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug. Unfortunately it's not one that we can fix due to complications with reincarnation. The only bright side to the dark cloud is it allows you to receive the benefits over time rather than just not at all (example: a +4 tome tome with no minimum level will grant the bonus over time the moment you are eligible for each of the stat increases, rather than making you wait for any bonus at all until you were the min level required for +4).

HA HA HA HA HA HA... <choke> <gasp>... HA HA HA HA HA.... heh, heh, heh...


Wait, are you serious?

Considering that

1. Reincarnation (as I understand it) is not in the game currently, and
2. ML1 tomes worked as expected yesterday.

So something that isn't even in the game is causing a bug that cannot be fixed?

Sorry, not buying it. It'll just get nerfed if I do.

[KoboldKiller]

For the record nobody FORCED you to buy whatever tomes your now crying about.

Flame me all you want but it's YOUR fault for putting the cart before the horse considering many people on the Lam server POSTED about this issue.

[DragonKiller]

Wait, I'm a bit confused here. I need to know where I should be steaming mad, or simply accept it's a cost/benefit thing.

If I were today to roll up a level 1 character and use a no ML +2 Int tome on it, would it or would it not give me the instant benefit of that use? Is this change ONLY related to if I have a character that is level 20, and I true reincarnation (or is it any reincarnation?) that the tomes I have used on that character will then be slowly added back to that character?

Thanks!

[dasein18]

lame lame lame.

[cypan41]

Kobold, it's not the cart before the horse. Many of us have been holding onto them for a long time. Now, especially the int tomes are pretty much 1/3rd as effective to our builds.

I have to agree, if it's because of reincarnation which isn't actually even in the game, then fix them back to the way they were until it is implemented.

Then at least we would have some warning.. sheesh

[KoboldKiller]

Wait, I'm a bit confused here. I need to know where I should be steaming mad, or simply accept it's a cost/benefit thing.

If I were today to roll up a level 1 character and use a no ML +2 Int tome on it, would it or would it not give me the instant benefit of that use? Is this change ONLY related to if I have a character that is level 20, and I true reincarnation (or is it any reincarnation?) that the tomes I have used on that character will then be slowly added back to that character?

Thanks!

If you use a +2 tome at level 1 you will get 1 point at level 3 and 1 point at level 7.

[DasLurch]

so as with the rush to buy/sell WoP before the last patch, same thing, buyer beware and all.

The point is that the 1st OFFICIAL post on this is AFTER the update. It stinks that it was changed. The fact that there was no notification on any official part is what is galling. Imigine if you will the outcry about the WoP change if the 1st post was after the update? Now maybe you can see the point. And remember this is a BUG. They are just CHOOSING not to fix it.

[dasein18]

For the record nobody FORCED you to buy whatever tomes your now crying about.

Flame me all you want but it's YOUR fault for putting the cart before the horse considering many people on the Lam server POSTED about this issue.

I did not buy .. but saved my tomes for my next toons that I did not get a chance to roll. So I lost an oppurtunity.. which if we got some clear direction on...I would have rolled up sooner. My issue is that I saw some posts on the Lam server about tome changes but never saw anything concrete about what would be in the module 1 patch. instead.. we get the official announcement AFTER the patch.

So again.. lame lame lame lame..

[shinmade]

You mean I spent all that plat to accuire no min lvl +2 tomes, even traded 2 for 1 for those +2 int tomes for xtra skill points on new toons and now they are nerfed?,

Thanks ddo

Same here... Traded my way into a couple of no min lvl +2 Int tomes that I was going to save for a future character...

[smatt]

For the record nobody FORCED you to buy whatever tomes your now crying about.

Flame me all you want but it's YOUR fault for putting the cart before the horse considering many people on the Lam server POSTED about this issue.


Hmmm well yes and no...... They posted about it only a couple of days ago..... The change ocured on Lama after the final update on the on Oct. 25th...

*hit happens indeed.... BUT this is a perfect example of something that while neccesary in order to move the game forward was handled in such poor form by Turbine, that it causes a lot more problems and ruffled feathers than neccesary.

[KoboldKiller]

Reincarnation may not be in the game but parts of the code may be (specifically those related to tomes) thus this "bug" as it was stated.

[Vorn]

Shoulda seen this one coming....
:(
/shakes head, walks away, muttering....

[DragonKiller]

If you use a +2 tome at level 1 you will get 1 point at level 3 and 1 point at level 7.

Ok... in that case the only words I could use to explain myself would be censored by the forums.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

For the record nobody FORCED you to buy whatever tomes your now crying about.

Flame me all you want but it's YOUR fault for putting the cart before the horse considering many people on the Lam server POSTED about this issue.

Several people posted Druids were coming too.

Kobold, it may not bother you but it has obviously affected some people pretty badly. Since reincarnate was brought about some of them have been looting and looting to get the plat to buy whatever tomes they could afford. Planning builds down to the boots on their characters feet.

Can't you just let people get this out their system without arguments or defending Turbine?

Right or wrong, this change has upset people. Let them air their side without the ridicule.

[t3pt6k]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug. Unfortunately it's not one that we can fix due to complications with reincarnation. The only bright side to the dark cloud is it allows you to receive the benefits over time rather than just not at all (example: a +4 tome tome with no minimum level will grant the bonus over time the moment you are eligible for each of the stat increases, rather than making you wait for any bonus at all until you were the min level required for +4).

Let me get this right - you're unable to fix bugs? Regardless of the complications it's still a bug. Fact that you state that you aren't going to fix it brings into question your entire development methodology. Let alone that it's a bug complicated by code that is sitting inactive in the current codebase. Is it only the easy ones you fix? You have no developers who are capable of coding without introducing unrepairable bugs? Really what you meant to say is it is the result of a design flaw that our current staff is incapable of overcoming.

This is upsetting not because of the tome issue, I have a bunch of affected tomes, oh well, but because of the greater issue it indicates. If this was a bug that affected something to the player's advantage you'd be all over it, but this doesn't so it's acceptable.

Might as well just call it a feature and be done with it.

[KoboldKiller]

Several people posted Druids were coming too.

Kobold, it may not bother you but it has obviously affected some people pretty badly. Since reincarnate was brought about some of them have been looting and looting to get the plat to buy whatever tomes they could afford. Planning builds down to the boots on their characters feet.

Can't you just let people get this out their system without arguments or defending Turbine?

Right or wrong, this change has upset people. Let them air their side without the ridicule.


Conceded.

[dasein18]

Let me get this right - you're unable to fix bugs? Regardless of the complications it's still a bug. Fact that you state that you aren't going to fix it brings into question your entire development methodology. Let alone that it's a bug complicated by code that is sitting inactive in the current codebase. Is it only the easy ones you fix? You have no developers who are capable of coding without introducing unrepairable bugs? Really what you meant to say is it is the result of a design flaw that our current staff is incapable of overcoming.

This is upsetting not because of the tome issue, I have a bunch of affected tomes, oh well, but because of the greater issue it indicates. If this was a bug that affected something to the player's advantage you'd be all over it, but this doesn't so it's acceptable.

Might as well just call it a feature and be done with it.

Good points. I was so mad about the tome change.. I missed that this is actually a bug. That they are basically saying tough.. we are leaving it in since you the player base cannot do anything about...

[Visty]

we knew it would come and now its here

it would be more surprising if it didnt stay that way

so everyone who is surprised, needs to get slapped
(that ofc only applies to ppl reading the forums)

[kingfisher]

question - if we have a lvl 1 character that had eaten +2 tomes before the mod, are they still supposed to show up or no?

[Emili]

Actually I see it more as a deterent to actually using reincarnation - lesser, greater or true - when they are released... you may spend weeks trying to readjust the stats, skills and abilities if you do... Possibly shall Officially rename it on go-live as "Greater Irritation?" :D Bloody poor two+ year old 32 and 28 point builds do not fret, want a better toon, save your agrivation and stay put or reroll.

Personally as I see it has more to due with adding a min level to tomes in the first place... NOT reincarnate or respec as it really is - had they just considered making them all no-min lvl - even those in store bloody far as am concerned, people would have been fine. - who would have cared if someone sport a few extra skill points... the feats are what really character centric. You want it fixed? Remove min level on tomes. Sure people will complain bout that too... Mr. X is respecing and getting too much... big deal least the respec system would work and yield him satisfaction rather then agrivation.

[Tolero]

No, that is the effect of the BUG!

No, it could have been worse. It could have broken in a way that it let you eat the non-min level tome and get NO benefit from it, rather than a spaced out one.

Originally this was supposed to be covered in our reincarnation chatter, but when reincarnation got pushed out, so too did the discussion about this :( that's my bad. When I was going through the KIs from another thread I realized that it didn't make it in >< so I'll go ahead and highlight some of that here:

There is no way for us to predict WHEN you would eat a tome. When you lesser/greater reincarnate, we have to assign your tome to some point in time. There's no way for us to predict that you would want to use your tome at the level that you did. Maybe you looted your tome way late and ate it as a higher level character because that's when you got access to it. There's not a way for the system to go "ah I see that now that you're reincarnating, and had a +2 tome that you used in your last life at level X, you are destined to eat that tome at level Y to get the most skill points when you take that level of [class] at level Z". We had to standardize the tomes so the reincarnation NPCs can predictably apply the stat bonus.

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.

These were things originally meant to be covered in the dev diary but the dev diary got delayed due to the feature push, and I missed adding it to the KI so that is totally my bad.

Also note that even though reincarnation is not available for you to access because we're still working on it, the code for it is still in the game atm. We've just suppressed it so you can't access it because it's not yet in a state where it's ready for mass consumption. Thus the items are being affected by the changes because the changes ARE there, you just can't access them.

[smatt]

question - if we have a lvl 1 character that had eaten +2 tomes before the mod, are they still supposed to show up or no?

It seems in this case that they are being applied at level 3 and level 7, and any others will be in the future. I rolled up 2 toons last night and put tomes on them...... Just checked and there's no bonuses showing now, as they did when I ate them.. Unfortunately it looks like the toons whould've needed to be beyond level 7 to get the benifit of the added skill points.

Not sure about the feat situation though.... But I'm betting that feats, and the stat level required will be a big mess for some.... Now THAT will get ugly..... :cool:

[kingfisher]

It seems in this case that they are being applied at level 3 and level 7, and any others will be in the future. I rolled up 2 toons last night and put tomes on them...... Just checked and there's no bonuses showing now, as they did when I ate them.. Unfortunately it looks like the toons whould've needed to be beyond level 7 to get the benifit of the added skill points.

Not sure about the feat situation though.... But I'm betting that feats, and the stat level required will be a big mess for some.... Now THAT will get ugly..... :cool:

same here checked another toon for an int and dex tome and nada, the skill point loss is annoying, if i would have known (have not really been paying attention the las week or so cause of work so its my own fault if the info was out there) i would have level him to 7 and gotten the points. the feat issue with the dex tome is a bit more of a pain but whatever whatever, its not like i expected it to be right the first time through. i mean WE are the testers for the game lol

[t3pt6k]

But it has been stated as a bug - not by design - so any explanation of what it's doing and why is trying to explain that a bug is actually a design feature.

Fix the bug, don't justify it.

[Eladrin]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug.
Specifically, the suppression of inherent bonuses for low level characters was not intended to go live with Update 1, and was supposed to be tied to when Reincarnation hits the servers. At the same time as that, old no-ML tomes were going to be given minimum levels to match newly dropped tomes - we were planning on covering all of this in a series of reincarnation articles and explaining what's going to happen rather than springing it on you as a surprise.

Currently, you can eat a no-ML tome on a low level character and the effect will be suppressed until you reach level 3, at which point the character will gain a +1 Inherent bonus to the ability score. At level 7, you will upgrade to a +2 (if it was a +2 tome), and so on. This is undesirable because there's no feedback at this time. ("I at a tome and nothing happened!")

[KoboldKiller]

But it has been stated as a bug - not by design - so any explanation of what it's doing and why is trying to explain that a bug is actually a design feature.

Fix the bug, don't justify it.

In keeping with what I told B I will suppress what I planned on saying.

[t3pt6k]

In keeping with what I told B I will suppress what I planned on saying.

LOL and who cares?

[RTN]

I'm sorry, but this sort of change is completely unacceptable when it isn't covered. I'm sorry Tolero, but it is complete BS that it slipped by the side. There were PM's to developers, community staff and questions in at least two different threads in the Lammania forums. You have every right to make this change, but you have to explain it beforehand, not with this weak excuse afterwards. If you're too cowardly to admit to making changes (like some retroactively bound equipment), fine, but then don't feed us the nonsense about how this simply slipped through.

The tomes were grandfathered in. Now they aren't. You yourself admit this is a big change. It needed to be addressed beforehand and you guys ducked your responsibility to announce changes that you think will be unpopular. You do this repeatedly. I guess we just need to accept that you'll always ignore and duck responsibility for things like this. I find this sort of behavior completely infuriating and I don't even have big plans for +2 INT tomes without an ML.

[Uska]

Tomes came with a minimum level before Update 1, and older tomes still worked as expected. This was a deliberate nerf, make no mistake.

they didnt work on lamania so it was known it was coming and is only fair, since new people couldnt get such tomes.

[Solmage]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

No understanding here, so no thanks necessary. But on the other side, the apparent goal of Turbine to **** off as many customers as possible with pointless changes has once again been met.

[rimble]

the apparent goal of Turbine to **** off as many customers as possible with pointless changes has once again been met.

You may disagree with it, but it's not pointless. The point is to enable tomes to be evenly re-applied after Reincarnation.

[RTN]

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.


And the carebear-ification of the game continues. I'm by no means a hardcore player. Most of my characters don't have a +2 INT tome eaten at any level. I still find this sort of nonsense maddening.

[Zaal]

the reason they are doing this is to establish a standard behaviour for appling tomes as you level. With lesser and greater reincarnation, turbine had no way of know whether your+3 tome was use at lvl 1 or lvl 18, so they came up with a structure to have the points apply as you retrain at the min lvl assigned


So it works like this

If you had a +3 tome on wis and a base score of 18 and you did a lesser reincarnation, as you talk to trainer and revel up your wis woul look like this

lvl 1 18
lvl 2 18
lvl 3 19
lvl 4 19
lvl 5 19
lvl 6 19
lvl 7 20
lvl 8 20
lvl 9 20
lvl 10 20
lvl 11 20
lvl 12 20
lvl 13 21
lvl 14 21
etc.

On the flip side, say you are a lvl 20 now and you finally find that +3 int tome.
When you reincarnate, do you get the full +3 @ lvl 13 ?

[rimble]

On the flip side, say you are a lvl 20 now and you finally find that +3 int tome.
When you reincarnate, do you get the full +3 @ lvl 13 ?

His chart was off, you'd get it at 11. They're applied the level before you get a level up point to spend--3, 7, 11, 15...19? So, you're first able to benefit from it DURING a level up, like extra skill points from Int, on your 'spend a point' level ups.

[RTN]

Specifically, the suppression of inherent bonuses for low level characters was not intended to go live with Update 1, and was supposed to be tied to when Reincarnation hits the servers. At the same time as that, old no-ML tomes were going to be given minimum levels to match newly dropped tomes - we were planning on covering all of this in a series of reincarnation articles and explaining what's going to happen rather than springing it on you as a surprise.


If you didn't publicize, then you shouldn't have put in the changes. Otherwise this excuse is devoid of any meaning. You claim to be able to update changes piecemeal now, THEN DO IT. There were multiple threads with questions about this THAT INCLUDED DEV RESPONSES THAT THIS WASN'T INTENDED. There was no way this was off your radar. You knew this was a problem and ignored it. I guess ****ing off the paying customer base isn't a big deal. Why is it that this sort of stuff happens regularly? It shouldn't.

[smatt]

Specifically, the suppression of inherent bonuses for low level characters was not intended to go live with Update 1, and was supposed to be tied to when Reincarnation hits the servers. At the same time as that, old no-ML tomes were going to be given minimum levels to match newly dropped tomes - we were planning on covering all of this in a series of reincarnation articles and explaining what's going to happen rather than springing it on you as a surprise.

Currently, you can eat a no-ML tome on a low level character and the effect will be suppressed until you reach level 3, at which point the character will gain a +1 Inherent bonus to the ability score. At level 7, you will upgrade to a +2 (if it was a +2 tome), and so on. This is undesirable because there's no feedback at this time. ("I at a tome and nothing happened!")

Very understantable Eladrin... BUT... By "supressing " a rather simple discussion such as this. There are a lot of players, loyal players that traded away millions and millions of in game currency, as well as items, gained through many hours of game time, for no min level tomes. Yes, it's only in game items I understand that, and surely there are some very happy people who were on the good side of the deal. But there are an equal amount of people who traded away a lot of game time "work" who now feel totally screwed.

A happy person tell 3 people a ****ed person tells 10....

When the min level went on tomes it should've been stated that ALL existing tome effects would be treated the same way in the near future as it was obviously known at that time this was the case. What's done is done.... But this is the kind of stuff that causes a lot of unneccesary hate and frustration.

[Emili]

Specifically, the suppression of inherent bonuses for low level characters was not intended to go live with Update 1, and was supposed to be tied to when Reincarnation hits the servers. At the same time as that, old no-ML tomes were going to be given minimum levels to match newly dropped tomes - we were planning on covering all of this in a series of reincarnation articles and explaining what's going to happen rather than springing it on you as a surprise.

Currently, you can eat a no-ML tome on a low level character and the effect will be suppressed until you reach level 3, at which point the character will gain a +1 Inherent bonus to the ability score. At level 7, you will upgrade to a +2 (if it was a +2 tome), and so on. This is undesirable because there's no feedback at this time. ("I at a tome and nothing happened!")

Yet think of it this way? Two TWF Paladins... one str 18/cha 14 while the other higher str 16/cha 16... yet both started with 14 dex and ate a +3 dex tome to get their GTWF... they both pull a +4 cha tome in TOD... and as such Pally 18/cha 14 easily adds in Divine might IV ... which pally two already had, but pally two seeing such thinks... hey? (as the lightbulb goes off) ... I'm going to go drop my cha and be a 18 str like Mr. Pally One. - Oh well, no can do. <- He cannot make Pally Two into Pally One at all.

[Riggs]

Ok...so maybe I missed it somewhere along the way, thought I was reading all the dev tracker and release notes.

If I am reading this right, when you reincarnate - any tomes you had already eaten before reinc are going to be applied as you level up? So essentially if you looted a +4 tome say last week, reincarnate, it 'comes back' once you hit the right level?

That is still cool.

Or is it simply that you lose the tomes, and all this applies to new tomes eaten, so even if you eat a +2 tome at level 1 that had no min level, you dont see the bonus show up until you reach the min level? = uncool.

[M.ham]

On the flip side, say you are a lvl 20 now and you finally find that +3 int tome.
When you reincarnate, do you get the full +3 @ lvl 13 ?

As far as I know, yes you do get the benefit. On my Sorc who has a 10 Int and 2 skill points per level, I ate a +2 INT Tome at level 20. When I reincarnate (lesser/greater) I should benefit from an additional skill point starting at level 8 after the ML 7 increase kicks in (might even be at level 7). That means approx 12-13 extra skill points through to level 20.

M.

[Eladrin]

If I am reading this right, when you reincarnate - any tomes you had already eaten before reinc are going to be applied as you level up? So essentially if you looted a +4 tome say last week, reincarnate, it 'comes back' once you hit the right level?
Lesser and Greater Reincarnation will retain your tomes, and re-apply them as you level up, at the minimum levels they would be applied. If you ate a +3 tome at level 18 and then lesser reincarnated, you would end up with +1 at levels 3-6, +2 at level 7-10, and +3 at level 11+.

[smatt]

Lesser and Greater Reincarnation will retain your tomes, and re-apply them as you level up, at the minimum levels they would be applied. If you ate a +3 tome at level 18 and then lesser reincarnated, you would end up with +1 at levels 3-6, +2 at level 7-10, and +3 at level 11+.


But to be clear, True Reincarnation will not EVER reapply any tomes consumed in your past life. So in effect they're forgotten, and the stat benefits fromthem are lsot forever.

[Tolero]

Very understantable Eladrin... BUT... By "supressing " a rather simple discussion such as this.

I reitterate that this was SUPPOSED to be discussed last week (especially to give people a chance to devour the tomes before the change happened) it moved off my radar when the feature got pushed out, which again is my fault. We were supposed to be having this conversation before now (and at the VERY least before release notes/KI went up). I had other things pushing into the radar at the time (i.e. whole features moving around on me), so again, we're having this discussion now because Tolero messed up.

[Hendrik]

For the record nobody FORCED you to buy whatever tomes your now crying about.

Flame me all you want but it's YOUR fault for putting the cart before the horse considering many people on the Lam server POSTED about this issue.

Well the documented changes to ML on Tomes and the reported posting on Reincarnate 'forced' them to buy up price-gouged no-ML tomes in an effort to take advantage of the upcoming system changes.

;)

[TFPAQ]

anyone who was on lammie knew about this well in advance. I also saw posts asking the question in the forum which was answered numerous times by lammanians (spelling on that?) saying not to spend big bucks on non-ml tomes because they implemented just like the new ones.

Whether you like it or not, how can so many of you be indignant about not being informed when it was floating around the forums forever?

They implemented the new material and held back the "not ready for prime time" to bring the update to us in a very timely fashion, which is what many of us requested over the past few months.

So... To Mrs. T, Mr. T, and the Big E...

Thank you for your work and dedication.

[Mercules]

Look people. It is a bug. The "Bug" part of it is not that it isn't supposed to affect tomes that way, but instead that it wasn't supposed to affect tomes that way YET. Technically it was supposed to be there because Reincarnation was supposed to be in this update. Reincarnation has not been released this update but the code is in there.

Now, we as a community have been stated that we don't want an update drug out because they have a feature they want to implement not working correctly and need to spend a bit more time on it. We told them to just not release that feature and not hold up the rest.

Well, they did just that with Reincarnation. So now we jump down their throats because some of the code is in there and caused an effect they didn't intend to be in there until Reincarnation is fully implemented. That is a mixed message.

Also, for those ****ed that they are not going to "fix it". Guess what, the next update brings in Reincarnation. So they would have to patch fix it(after a bunch of work) and then just put the code right back in for the next mod. If you want them to do twice the work you might want to try honey instead of pepper spray.

[smatt]

I reitterate that this was SUPPOSED to be discussed last week (especially to give people a chance to devour the tomes before the change happened) it moved off my radar when the feature got pushed out, which again is my fault. We were supposed to be having this conversation before now (and at the VERY least before release notes/KI went up). I had other things pushing into the radar at the time (i.e. whole features moving around on me), so again, we're having this discussion now because Tolero messed up.

I know Tolero.... I picture your desk/computer as the one people are constantly walking by and dumping piles of stuff on.... Just as you clear a little space at the end of the day.... You walk out the door thinking OK, I'll be good in the morning... Then you come in the next morning and the pile is now over-flowing and falling on the floor :eek:

I thnk what I was tryign to say is that with such a sweeping change to a major compenant of the game, that affects the vast amjority of new toons. This should've been brought up way back during the first discusssions of reincarnation at the latest. Even doing it last week would've been too late fro most people to avoid the consequinces.

I'm just saying... I personally understand the changes needed to happen, and can see why....

[VonBek]

So... To Mrs. T, Mr. T, and the Big E...

Thank you for your work and dedication.

Signed. +1. Yes.

[smatt]

Look people. It is a bug. The "Bug" part of it is not that it isn't supposed to affect tomes that way, but instead that it wasn't supposed to affect tomes that way YET. Technically it was supposed to be there because Reincarnation was supposed to be in this update. Reincarnation has not been released this update but the code is in there.

Now, we as a community have been stated that we don't want an update drug out because they have a feature they want to implement not working correctly and need to spend a bit more time on it. We told them to just not release that feature and not hold up the rest.

Well, they did just that with Reincarnation. So now we jump down their throats because some of the code is in there and caused an effect they didn't intend to be in there until Reincarnation is fully implemented. That is a mixed message.

Also, for those ****ed that they are not going to "fix it". Guess what, the next update brings in Reincarnation. So they would have to patch fix it(after a bunch of work) and then just put the code right back in for the next mod. If you want them to do twice the work you might want to try honey instead of pepper spray.


If you were shooting a target set-up in front of you..... You missed and hit the wall behind you :D

[Mercules]

I know Tolero.... I picture your desk/computer as the one people are constantly walking by and dumping piles of stuff on.... Just as you clear a little space at the end of the day.... You walk out the door thinking OK, I'll be good in the morning... Then you come in the next morning and the pile is now over-flowing and falling on the floor :eek:

I thnk what I was tryign to say is that with such a sweeping change to a major compenant of the game, that affects the vast amjority of new toons. This should've been brought up way back during the first discusssions of reincarnation at the latest. Even doing it last week would've been too late fro most people to avoid the consequinces.

I'm just saying... I personally understand the changes needed to happen, and can see why....

I believe it was brought up concerning Reincarnation multiple times... in the Reincarnation threads for Lamannia.

[smatt]

anyone who was on lammie knew about this well in advance. I also saw posts asking the question in the forum which was answered numerous times by lammanians (spelling on that?) saying not to spend big bucks on non-ml tomes because they implemented just like the new ones.

Whether you like it or not, how can so many of you be indignant about not being informed when it was floating around the forums forever?

They implemented the new material and held back the "not ready for prime time" to bring the update to us in a very timely fashion, which is what many of us requested over the past few months.

So... To Mrs. T, Mr. T, and the Big E...

Thank you for your work and dedication.


No not forever.... It was only noticed after the last update on Lama on the 25th fo Oct..... A few people knew a few days ago.... And some more learned from those people....

[Cendaer]

I might add that there were MANY peopel who spent a considerable amount of in game resources on no-min level tomes in thelast couple of months... Only to be screwed over by this change that Turbine KNEW they were implementing...


The same exact situation occurs every day on the stock market. If you're going to speculate, you risk having the rug yanked out from under you, that's the nature of speculation.

The interesting thing about this, is that a great many players knew the change was coming, and discussed it, yet people still continued to speculate, and hoard the things rather than using them before any changes were made.

Turbine didn't intentionally screw anyone over, they were making the change whether people were going to speculate on Intelligence tomes or not. People screwed themselves over by having knee-jerk reactions and then speculating in the hopes of being able to subvert or avoid the coming changes.

You can't keep your cake and eat it too.

[MrFister]

There is no way for us to predict WHEN you would eat a tome. When you lesser/greater reincarnate, we have to assign your tome to some point in time.

There's no way for us to predict that you would want to use your tome at the level that you did.

By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.


Is there ever a reason to use a tome at a *later* level?

Here is an idea:

Apply all inherent bonus at level 1.
If you apply all inherent bonus at level 1, you give all late-eaten tomes a benefit without hurting early-eaten builds.
You eat a no-min-lvl +2 tome at level 1, you get the full benefit then and when you reincarnate.
You eat a +4 tome at level 20, you get the benefit of +4 at lvl 1 when you reincarnate (yes, a buff, but is it game breaking?).

This hurts no one. For most people it would be a buff. It might drive a lot more reincarnations (reincarnate at level 3, level 7, level 11, etc.) as your character would be buffed slightly by having those tomes applied at level 1 instead of later on. This means more purchases at the DDO store!

I guess I'm not sure why tomes were given level requirements in the first place. Since my idea is essentially a removal of the tome level requirement by way of reincarnation, then if there's a compelling reason for the min-level requirement, this may be a worthless post.

[Phidius]

they didnt work on lamania so it was known it was coming and is only fair, since new people couldnt get such tomes.

When are they removing all the "Founder" titles? It's not fair that I can't get one just because I haven't been playing as long.

[Khurse]

Yeah as one of the players who spent big bucks (well, big plat) on some +2 tomes from way before reincarnations was announced, this kinda sucks.

I don't see why it can't be how I understood it to be, if my toon ate a no ML tome I got the benfit then, if I reincarnate I get the stats at lvl 3,lvl 7 etc etc.
Also don't see how it could be missed/forgotten about considering the sheer amount of threads and debate concerning tomes in general when it was announced that new drop tomes had minimum levels attached to them with DDO:EU.
.This very much sounds like a "well we won't tell them then someone will just apologize for it and call it a day" type of thing.

That being said, overall not a big deal, yeah I have a bank of tomes that have been massively devalued, but that kinda matches my investments so.. meh I'd rather have the investments doing well and the tomes devalued
In conclusion.
1)Turbine you completely fail for doing this.
2) All will be forgiven if you FINALLY GIVE ME MY *&$#&% HALF ORC!!

[Cuth]

The only reason this irks me is that Turbine went out of their way to say that old tomes would be grandfathered when they announced the new min levels for tomes.

Now they went back on their word without notifying anyone.

Games change, I can handle that. It's the blatant lies to the player base I dislike.

[smatt]

The same exact situation occurs every day on the stock market. If you're going to speculate, you risk having the rug yanked out from under you, that's the nature of speculation.

The interesting thing about this, is that a great many players knew the change was coming, and discussed it, yet people still continued to speculate, and hoard the things rather than using them before any changes were made.

Turbine didn't intentionally screw anyone over, they were making the change whether people were going to speculate on Intelligence tomes or not. People screwed themselves over by having knee-jerk reactions and then speculating in the hopes of being able to subvert or avoid the coming changes.

You can't keep your cake and eat it too.


Ummm you're brilliant..... All except the part about simply telling the customers that this change was coming when they knew it was coming. I personally didn't imply that they intentionally screwed anybody over.... I said they made an error in judgement on how to deal with a sweepigng game cahnge and how it was presented to the players.

Again, to another person the target is in front of you're shooting at the wall behind you :D reading comprehension for the win :eek:

I agree that he change had to coem.. I'm just hoping that in the future, these kinds of changes are brought to the forefront of the discussions of sweeping game changes taht the Dev team undertakes with the players here on the forums. This wasn't an unfroseen change this is one they knew was coming at the very least when they put the Min level requirement on the tomes. A lot of ruffled feathers could've been easily avoided..... It sliipe dby Tolero in a very busy week with some big changes going on with the update.. Very understanable..... BUT it should've been put out there in the reincarnation discussion forums......

[Tolero]

An aside - I understand the frustration etc, but please refrain from turing this into an insult hurling session, lest the Cube has to make his rounds. I'm trying to be lenient here because I understand people are upset, but the forum rules are always in play.

[Pyromaniac]

Its not a new mod without some nerfs. I go with the attitude, 'if it can be nerfed, it will'. Poor decision, not surprised.

[Jovial]

I want turbine to buy back the tomes I bought before they changed what they do or even anounced such a change. They owe me 30 million plat. Im not even exaggerating. This should have been anounced 2 months ago.

[KoboldKiller]

I want turbine to buy back the tomes I bought before they changed what they do or even anounced such a change. They owe me 30 million plat. Im not even exaggerating. This should have been anounced 2 months ago.

Ya that's gonna happen.
:rolleyes:

[Jovial]

Ok so then since I cant post "deleted". Let me try this another way. Can I at least sell the tomes I spent my entire fortune from the last three years on to turbine for my 30mill plat back since your changes were not anounced until way after our "need to know"?????

[Zenako]

I want turbine to buy back the tomes I bought before they changed what they do or even anounced such a change. They owe me 30 million plat. Im not even exaggerating. This should have been anounced 2 months ago.

How many dang tomes were you planning on hoarding???? Or was the market on your server completely whacked???

30 Mil Plat = 300 million gold. You could up until yesterday pick up no ML tomes for at most 10 million gold. So you were gathering 150+ +2 tomes???? WHY??? For personal use?? Thats like 25 full sets of +2's. Even the most eager alt-alholic I know is not running thru that many in a few years.

[Tarnoc]

well i dont know about the rest of you but the one toon i wanna use a greater on isa 28 build from the headstart

and well to be honest he never got all +3 tomes in all stats till lvl 16 cap

so wont i be making out like a bandit?

[Jovial]

How many dang tomes were you planning on hoarding???? Or was the market on your server completely whacked???

30 Mil Plat = 300 million gold. You could up until yesterday pick up no ML tomes for at most 10 million gold. So you were gathering 150+ +2 tomes???? WHY??? For personal use?? Thats like 25 full sets of +2's. Even the most eager alt-alholic I know is not running thru that many in a few years.

yeah sorry 3mill plat your right. Im so angry I cant think strait. 5@6mill gold! All Int tomes the rest dont really matter and yes for alts

[dakkon75]

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

All in all at least one good point came out in the discussion up above. Woot +5 tomes can be used at 19th level which means they can possibly be availible on epic content.

[Jovial]

All in all at least one good point came out in the discussion up above. Woot +5 tomes can be used at 19th level which means they can possibly be availible on epic content.

Thats not the problem. The problem is the huge shifts in the game economy that are causing veterans hard work to not matter anymore. And the usual cold shoulder about it.

[Turial]

....
You eat a +4 tome at level 20, you get the benefit of +4 at lvl 1 when you reincarnate (yes, a buff, but is it game breaking?).

This hurts no one. For most people it would be a buff. It might drive a lot more reincarnations (reincarnate at level 3, level 7, level 11, etc.) as your character would be buffed slightly by having those tomes applied at level 1 instead of later on. This means more purchases at the DDO store!....

If you are a caster its a big difference.

[vyvy3369]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.
Just as an FYI, that's not true. After hearing about the changes on Llama, I rerolled a character, used a set of +2 Tomes, and got him up to 5.3 as of yesterday. Today I logged in to find that his stats are all 1 lower, with the other +1 theoretically being applied as soon as he hits level 7.

Edit: and someone else may have answered that already, but I read a few pages and didn't see it.

[RTN]

Just as an FYI, that's not true. After hearing about the changes on Llama, I rerolled a character, used a set of +2 Tomes, and got him up to 5.3 as of yesterday. Today I logged in to find that his stats are all 1 lower, with the other +1 theoretically being applied as soon as he hits level 7.

Edit: and someone else may have answered that already, but I read a few pages and didn't see it.

Yep, we got screwed no matter how you look at it. Even warning last week would have been too late for many because you'd have to level to 7 with a +2 INT tome to not lose skill points. We specifically asked for confirmation of these issues and got no answer.

[Rumbaar]

I'm a new player and have no investment in the Tomes economy and their use, but even I can see how this was very poorly handled.

To see the major investment in time and resources for this major in game economy go down the the drain in just one patch is dis-heartening. Special as a new player, if they treat the vets like this how will the cannon fodder of new players F2P, Premium or VIP fair in the long run.

But that said they've said they are sorry, there isn't more that can be done now. But a good rant/vent is needed, specially loosing so much plat in one days patch. At least the physical benefit is still there to the characters

[Solmage]

I have deleted my message I don't know how many times. I just can't do it justice at how upset I am at this change. I'm trying hard to not possibly overreact, but .. perhaps it's the sum of factors..

So instead I'll say this: You ARE making us loose our tomes with True reincarnation. While there is a very good reason why the min level 1 tomes do not work with the other resurrections, there is no reason why they could not be made to work with True Res if you were willing to make them work.

You don't deem the effort worth it because you can no longer get them - I submit you're underestimating the amount of distress, ill-will and plain anger this is causing and will cause among your player-base.

[Tolero]

I have deleted my message I don't know how many times. I just can't do it justice at how upset I am at this change. I'm trying hard to not possibly overreact, but .. perhaps it's the sum of factors..

So instead I'll say this: You ARE making us loose our tomes with True reincarnation. While there is a very good reason why the min level 1 tomes do not work with the other resurrections, there is no reason why they could not be made to work with True Res if you were willing to make them work.

You don't deem the effort worth it because you can no longer get them - I submit you're underestimating the amount of distress, ill-will and plain anger this is causing and will cause among your player-base.

It's not the true res that is the problem, it's the lesser/greater (true res you lose tomes, lesser/greater you don't). There was another option they explored, but it would have meant you could get your respecs in 2013 :(

[JTsays]

The tome change was not intentional, and is the result of a bug. Unfortunately it's not one that we can fix due to complications with reincarnation. ..........

shenanigans!

[smatt]

It's not the true res that is the problem, it's the lesser/greater (true res you lose tomes, lesser/greater you don't). There was another option they explored, but it would have meant you could get your respects in 2013 :(


Yes Tolero, they all wanted a Respec.... Well many did, I wasn't every realyl onto the idea.. I think it's a bit cheap to be honest, but I can understand some of the arguements for it, as well as the fact that it's more than likely a good addition for the masses of the player base or intended target player base. And I realyl do think that the Dev team came up with a pretty good mechanic, at least as far as I can see.

Now... You have my permission to go and whack over the head with a bag of brocolli (AND NO CHEESE SAUCE :eek: ), whoever it was that made the decsion to hold this tome retro information when the Lama testing began at the beggining of the month :D

[Tolero]

Now... You have my permission to go and whack over the head with a bag of brocolli (AND NO CHEESE SAUCE :eek: ), whoever it was that made the decsion to hold this tome retro information when the Lama testing began at the beggining of the month :D

The only person who needs a broccoli wacking is me =/ I had all this info and a plan around how we were going to discuss it etc (in fact chunks of my earlier post are taken from that diary). I just got caught up with the other problems so when the diary got pushed the other steps got left by the wayside too (i.e. the discussion thread and adding it to my KI draft).

[04pugdog04]

No, it could have been worse. It could have broken in a way that it let you eat the non-min level tome and get NO benefit from it, rather than a spaced out one.

Originally this was supposed to be covered in our reincarnation chatter, but when reincarnation got pushed out, so too did the discussion about this :( that's my bad. When I was going through the KIs from another thread I realized that it didn't make it in >< so I'll go ahead and highlight some of that here:

There is no way for us to predict WHEN you would eat a tome. When you lesser/greater reincarnate, we have to assign your tome to some point in time. There's no way for us to predict that you would want to use your tome at the level that you did. Maybe you looted your tome way late and ate it as a higher level character because that's when you got access to it. There's not a way for the system to go "ah I see that now that you're reincarnating, and had a +2 tome that you used in your last life at level X, you are destined to eat that tome at level Y to get the most skill points when you take that level of [class] at level Z". We had to standardize the tomes so the reincarnation NPCs can predictably apply the stat bonus.

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.

These were things originally meant to be covered in the dev diary but the dev diary got delayed due to the feature push, and I missed adding it to the KI so that is totally my bad.

Also note that even though reincarnation is not available for you to access because we're still working on it, the code for it is still in the game atm. We've just suppressed it so you can't access it because it's not yet in a state where it's ready for mass consumption. Thus the items are being affected by the changes because the changes ARE there, you just can't access them.

So does that mean if we eat a a +2 tome at level 9 the skill points will go all the way back to 7 for ones we missed eating it late.

[smatt]

The only person who needs a broccoli wacking is me =/ I had all this info and a plan around how we were going to discuss it etc (in fact chunks of my earlier post are taken from that diary). I just got caught up with the other problems so when the diary got pushed the other steps got left by the wayside too (i.e. the discussion thread and adding it to my KI draft).


OK, well then you can have cheese sauce with that whacking :D

As I said before I'd hate see your desk T... :eek:

[The10man]

STOP PUTTING IN NERFS TO HURT LONG TIME PLAYERS!!!

Read this however you want it is a nerf plain and simple. Lots of trades of the old "no min lvl" tomes in recent days now the party that got the tome in the trade just got hosed for what they thought at the time was a fair trade. I havent logged in yet but Update one is a full on BUST for me so far: lets see most popular and freshly advertised raid now broken--check, tomes changed to hurt vets--check, respecs not out yet--this one I forgave you for initially but now that you hosed the player base supposedly only for the repecs in an update that doesn't include them forget that. This was not announced I don't care what hints were thrown out there. It needed announced! This is a BIG change.

Why wasn't this in the letter from Paiz?

You say it was done for the respecs WHICH ARE NOT OUT YET so why not tell us in plain words its coming with that update so we could use them up and level the chars before then if we so choose? But that ain't your style is it? Super secret and vast and mysterious are the ways you are going to hurt your vets next.

Or was this done so we'd all spend "real money" on them in the store?

[Tolero]

As I said before I'd hate see your desk T... :eek:

It comes with a colonial tinfoil hat, complete with foil feather. I keep it on my monitor as a luck booster... though didn't help me today :(

[Jovial]

It's not the true res that is the problem, it's the lesser/greater (true res you lose tomes, lesser/greater you don't). There was another option they explored, but it would have meant you could get your respecs in 2013 :(

I could not care less about when tomes take effect. The problem here is the huge financial loss that many of us took through unannounced game changes. The plat we spent was hard earned. This loss is totally unacceptable. I have 5 +2 int tomes that are now worthless. I suggest Turbine trades me devil scales on a 1-1 bases for these now worthless tomes. Come on make it right!!!

[Talcyndl]

I have 5 +2 int tomes that are now worthless.



You can send a few to me. :)

[Jovial]

It comes with a colonial tinfoil hat, complete with foil feather. I keep it on my monitor as a luck booster... though didn't help me today :(

Maybe it got nerfed with the new mod :D

[Riorik]

I reitterate that this was SUPPOSED to be discussed last week (especially to give people a chance to devour the tomes before the change happened)

This is easy to fix. Undo it.

[The10man]

This is easy to fix. Undo it.

Lightbulb because this is ...BRILLIANT!

[KoboldKiller]

So does that mean if we eat a a +2 tome at level 9 the skill points will go all the way back to 7 for ones we missed eating it late.

No

[smatt]

This is easy to fix. Undo it.


Unfortunately, the code for the Respec so many were screaming for is intertwinned through-out the enitre new Update. An attempt to remove it would likely require A LOT of coding work.. Then it would be back to the Beta testing then QA... We're talking a long time, likely months.... Not going to happen.......



Or was this done so we'd all spend "real money" on them in the store?


Hmm, DDO store bought tomes are exactly the same as every other tome in the game, except they bind to character..... This change has absolutely zero benefit for the Turbine store....

[smatt]

It comes with a colonial tinfoil hat, complete with foil feather. I keep it on my monitor as a luck booster... though didn't help me today :(


Hmm, I have one of those fancy Lucky hats from the special event, you know the 3 Musketeers one.... Maybe that'll help....... It must be good for something other than looking really spiffy :p

[KoboldKiller]

I find it hilarious that Turbine explains the problem, apologizes, tells you that it will not be fixed, tells you what would happen if they try to fix it and yet some of you are still telling Turbine that it's any easy fix just do it.

[Jovial]

I find it hilarious that Turbine explains the problem, apologizes, tells you that it will not be fixed, tells you what would happen if they try to fix it and yet some of you are still telling Turbine that it's any easy fix just do it.




I dont see how Turbine has explained the problem at all. All they have talked about is game mechanics when the problem is the financial ruin that a lack of communication on their part has caused.

[KoboldKiller]

I dont see how Turbine has explained the problem at all. All they have talked about is game mechanics when the problem is the financial ruin that a lack of communication on their part has caused.


You are taking this way to seriously. Financial ruin? IT'S A GAME MAN!

They have explained it if you would go back and read what was written. It was part of the reincarnation code which is in the game currently. It explains why it affected the tomes, it explains why they cannot fix it without a major overhaul.


And if you spent every in game dime you have then that was a foolish move on your part.

[Jovial]

You are taking this way to seriously. Financial ruin? IT'S A GAME MAN!

They have explained it if you would go back and read what was written. It was part of the reincarnation code which is in the game currently. It explains why it affected the tomes, it explains why they cannot fix it without a major overhaul.


And if you spent every in game dime you have then that was a foolish move on your part.

Its a game I have been playing for over three years and yes I take it seriously. And I think calling me foolish is a breach of forum rules eh? Also if I cannot count on ANYTHING not being changed or "nerfed" it undermines my desire to prosper in the game. Cant be sure when anything or everything will be stripped away. How would you feel if large devil scales were suddenly removed from all recipes?

For the record I teach my kids not to change the rules in the middle of the game, and they grasp the concept!

[nytewolf]

Ok I guess its time for me to voice my opinion on this. I have read this whole thread and followed the Lamma threads though have not downloaded Lamma myself.

I have spent some time thinking of how this could be implemented for respec and recognize any tomes you might have eaten. The only way in my limited knowledge is that the game reads your inherent bonus for a stat to determine what bonus you should receive per level.

In example the game reads a +3 inherent bonus to strength so it knows to add a +1 bonus at 3rd a +2 at 7th and a +3 at 11th.

Now I could be completely wrong here on how it functions but if thats how its reading it then the game could care less what level you ate the tome at. If this is the case then there is no conceivable way the game could tell whether it was a no min lvl +1 tome or a min lvl 3 +1 tome.

Now if the above is true I can not wrap my mind around how this is a bug but is in fact working as intended. (Tolero I am not trying to call you a liar with this statement please understand this. But think if working as intended you were given incorrect information to give us.)

I feel that alot of this could have been avoided if the Turbine staff would take just a little more time to address the player base's concerns about game changing events. The only comment I found regarding anything from Turbine on this subject was the following.


Preliminary investigation on the tome issue seems to indicate that they will take effect at various levels (you should see +1 tomes take effect at level 3 for example).

The above post was made on 10/16/09 in the following thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2490184#post2490184

I know its only 12 days but the question was asked repeatedly to seemingly deaf ears.

Oh btw this change is retroactive if you have a character that is below level for a tome he already ate. I created a lvl 1 Monk shortly after this was reported on Lamma I ate a +1 Charisma tome and left him at level 1 I checked hes no longer getting a +1 to charisma at this time.

Just my thoughts here.

[transtemporal]

Good change, grandfathering is rarely good game-design.

Yeah, as a design it works better and I'm satisfied that its been changed to support the respec system, not because Turbine wanted to nerf tomes.

However, it still sucks that we only find out officially after the fact, especially for those who were trading 4-5 scales for a no-ml int tome. :(

[transtemporal]

Oh btw this change is retroactive if you have a character that is below level for a tome he already ate. I created a lvl 1 Monk shortly after this was reported on Lamma I ate a +1 Charisma tome and left him at level 1 I checked hes no longer getting a +1 to charisma at this time.

I wonder this too, sorry if this has been already answered and I missed it.

Say I ate a no-ml +2 int tome pre-update at lvl 1 taking my int to 14, then advanced to 4, then the update hits. What happens?

1) my int stays at 14, I retain extra skill points for lvls 2,3,4. Skill points for lvls 5,6 etc are calculated at int 14.
2) my int drops to 13, I retain extra skill points for lvls 2,3,4. Skill points for lvls 5,6 are calculated at int 13. My int automatically increases to 14 when I reach 7.
3) my int drops to 13, extra skilll points for lvls 2,3,4 are automatically removed from skills. Skill points for lvls 5,6 are calculated at int 13. My int automatically advances to 14 when I reach 7.

Same question for feats that we qualified for using no-ml tomes; i.e. power attack, itwf, combat expertise. If we didn't reach lvl 7 prior to the update dropping, do we retain the feats or do we lose them?

[tihocan]

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.
But it does not matter, it doesn't mean it wasn't possible for you devs to keep the old no ML tome behavior (i.e. apply the inherent bonus when the tome is used, and if you reincarnate then too bad for you, you'll get it at the new ML). It's the implementation that's faulty. Some dev probably figured it was the easiest way to code for reincarnation (probably coding it by automatically using the tome at character creation), and decided it was ok to break the no ML tomes in the process.

The good news is you can still change your mind and devote some ressources to fixing it. I'm hoping that's what you're going to do (but I have to say, given the tendancy towards easy fixes that we've seen in the past, my hopes aren't too high).

[Junts]

But it does not matter, it doesn't mean it wasn't possible for you devs to keep the old no ML tome behavior. It's the implementation that's faulty. Some dev probably figured it was the easiest way to code for reincarnation, and decided it was ok to break the no ML tomes in the process.

The good news is you can still change your mind and devote some ressources to fixing it. I'm hoping that's what you're going to do (but I have to say, given the tendancy towards easy fixes that we've seen in the past, my hopes aren't too high).

Implying the belief the game can keep track of when you acquired your inherent bonus (when clearly it has never recorded that data) is straight up faulty: this kind of system is the only one that precludes the creation of situations where anyone who pulls a +3 or +4 int tome and gains a skill point bracket can automatically gain 23 skill points by doing a lesser reincarnation.

There are a finite number of no-ml tomes in DDO and they would have stopped being an issue in 6 months anyway; regardless, people like us have characters who used them and profited in skill terms and for those reasons may wish to not reincarnate those characters. That is enough benefit.

Implying that they can retroactively add a way for the game to know when everyone used their tomes so as to avoid a retroactivity issue with reincarnations is fallacious; the data was not recorded, it cannot suddenly become recorded, and coding that feature exclusively to retain the vale of several thousand items which can never drop again is lunacy: there is no reason for them to waste that much time on an item that will be out of circulation soon either way.

[tihocan]

Implying the belief the game can keep track of when you acquired your inherent bonus (when clearly it has never recorded that data) is straight up faulty.
I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying, when you use a tome you should immediately get your inherent bonus. Period. They broke this simple feature because it made it easier for them to handle tomes in lesser/greater reincarnation, but it does not mean there is no way around.

Basically, they should have left the tomes' code alone, and instead coded something in the leveling process of reincarnation to make you use a +1/+2/+3 etc. when you re-level up (instead, I'm pretty sure they make you use a tome at character creation and let the new tomes' code do its stuff).

And yes, you can tell I don't know anything about the DDO code, which is true, but I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't possible (I agree it's probably some extra work they don't want to put effort into though, because they have higher priorities for development :().

[Kaldaka]

I just can't believe they nerfed the pre-update already eaten tomes I thought were safe in my belly ...




I feel so ... violated :( ...

[Kistilan]

They didn't want you to use your +2 tomes before the new mod.

That's why they didn't tell you. Nuff said.

Similar handling with BtA vs BtC Huge Bags/Quivers... very introspective. Nice transparency, Turbine.

[Thar]

So if you use a tome over the minimum level do you get the benefit?

IE

use +2 int tome at lvl 14 and get the extra +1 skill point per level for 7 through 14 at use? ie 7 extra skill points next level up.

make it fair if your doing it the other way.

[DagazUlf]

It's not the true res that is the problem

Not you too, Tolero! Can no one tell the difference between res and reinc? :(

[tihocan]

So if you use a tome over the minimum level do you get the benefit?
Only if you do a lesser or greater reincarnation.

[04pugdog04]

I could not care less about when tomes take effect. The problem here is the huge financial loss that many of us took through unannounced game changes. The plat we spent was hard earned. This loss is totally unacceptable. I have 5 +2 int tomes that are now worthless. I suggest Turbine trades me devil scales on a 1-1 bases for these now worthless tomes. Come on make it right!!!

I have 10 +2 tomes the only ones that would be worthless if you are loooking at it that way are the INT the rest it doesnt matter and they Int are still selling so to call them worthless is foolish IMHO and dude it is a game how are you taking a huge Financial loss. Remeber all that any off this stuff is are pixels. If you are getting this worked up about it might i suggest you step away from the computer and look outside and read somethings going on in the world and that might put this all in perspective for you.

[sephiroth1084]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

Will this change mean that when we True Reincarnate, our tomes will be retained and applied at their appropriate levels? Or do we get ****ed from the front and the back--tomes are a little less useful now, and we lose them when we TR?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Ummm, so why was this not discussed prior to the update going live? I did not see anything for this in the Lama notes, did I miss something or is this going to fall into the conspiracy theory threads?

It was well discussed in the Lama threads


Tomes came with a minimum level before Update 1, and older tomes still worked as expected. This was a deliberate nerf, make no mistake.

Actually it seems by Madfloyd's reaction to have been an accidental side effect.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Will this change mean that when we True Reincarnate, our tomes will be retained and applied at their appropriate levels? Or do we get ****ed from the front and the back--tomes are a little less useful now, and we lose them when we TR?

The change was made to support LR & GR...TR strips your tomes for good.

[sephiroth1084]

No, it could have been worse. It could have broken in a way that it let you eat the non-min level tome and get NO benefit from it, rather than a spaced out one.

Originally this was supposed to be covered in our reincarnation chatter, but when reincarnation got pushed out, so too did the discussion about this :( that's my bad. When I was going through the KIs from another thread I realized that it didn't make it in >< so I'll go ahead and highlight some of that here:

There is no way for us to predict WHEN you would eat a tome. When you lesser/greater reincarnate, we have to assign your tome to some point in time. There's no way for us to predict that you would want to use your tome at the level that you did. Maybe you looted your tome way late and ate it as a higher level character because that's when you got access to it. There's not a way for the system to go "ah I see that now that you're reincarnating, and had a +2 tome that you used in your last life at level X, you are destined to eat that tome at level Y to get the most skill points when you take that level of [class] at level Z". We had to standardize the tomes so the reincarnation NPCs can predictably apply the stat bonus.

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.

These were things originally meant to be covered in the dev diary but the dev diary got delayed due to the feature push, and I missed adding it to the KI so that is totally my bad.

Also note that even though reincarnation is not available for you to access because we're still working on it, the code for it is still in the game atm. We've just suppressed it so you can't access it because it's not yet in a state where it's ready for mass consumption. Thus the items are being affected by the changes because the changes ARE there, you just can't access them.

2 more questions:

First, do you mean that reading an Int tome that puts you at an even stat will now grant retroactive skill points, or will that only occur if you Reincarnate?

Second, when do tomes kick in? If I read a tome at level 1, does the bonus get applied before or after I select my feat and skills at level 3?

[sephiroth1084]

The change was made to support LR & GR...TR strips your tomes for good.
Which is bogus. I didn't mind tomes being stripped before, as it represented something to shoot for after you TR'ed and retained all your raid loot, but changing the tomes in a way that would support their being kept around and stripping them? Not happy about this.

[Uska]

Agreed. Although Barb crit rage is less of an issue as it is now quite a weak choice.

Brilliant change - this goes someway toward removing some of the advantages long term players had over new players that the new players could never, ever catch up. Now, new players will be able to, though skillful play and/or determination, obtain almost everything that us old timers have.

I lose out on a couple of the tomes I had banked, but I'm happy to suffer a small loss to fix a game imbalance issue.

Well said and a good attitude +1 for you sir

[Uska]

guys.. u know that this will only happend when IF u use the ressurection stuff, if your char is done its done.

if u creating a new one and still have a +2 no min lvl tome it will aplly normally.

only diference is for those that used a +2 tome at early lvls before the mod and now are using the ressurection feature.

if the tome is in your bank it wil still eb ther and work as today, and this was discussed a lot in lamania with the devs saying exactly how it will work.

Wrong you can eat a no min tome at any time now but it will apply at the same lvl as the min lvl tomes

[binnsr]

You can't keep your cake and eat it too.

Lies!! You just have to tell the genie that you want the cake back.

[Uska]

Wait, I'm a bit confused here. I need to know where I should be steaming mad, or simply accept it's a cost/benefit thing.

If I were today to roll up a level 1 character and use a no ML +2 Int tome on it, would it or would it not give me the instant benefit of that use? Is this change ONLY related to if I have a character that is level 20, and I true reincarnation (or is it any reincarnation?) that the tomes I have used on that character will then be slowly added back to that character?

Thanks!

YOu can eat the tome but you will get +1 at lvl 3 and the other plus at lvl 7

[Khurse]

It's basically penalizing players who didn't screw up/are happy with their builds by assuming we would need to/want to respec.

That being said, forgiveness is still possible... half orcs.. forgiveness...half orcs..

You know you want to.

[RTN]

It was well discussed in the Lama threads

Actually it seems by Madfloyd's reaction to have been an accidental side effect.

It was not well discussed. We asked for clarification multiple times about all the stuff people are upset about and got no reply. Players discussing it is largely irrelevant since we can only discuss what we see. We have no idea if it is a bug or it is working as intended...or whether they plan to fix/change something. We need Turbine's feedback. We asked for it. Repeatedly. We didn't get it.

We've been told repeatedly that this Update marks the beginning of the ability to do incremental updates, etc. and that we should expect them in the future. Let's assume the "Gee whiz, I forgot to tell you about this admittedly big change" excuse is real. In that case, they should have leveraged their new tech and not implemented these changes until they gave us the warning and fully explained the changes.

[rest]

seems like this is something that's pretty important. i find it hard to see how you could "forget" to tell us something like this.


i mean... SHlT happens... but wow.

[Kilgore61]

I felt compelled to add my voice to the disappointed and dismayed.

I don't understand why Turbine waisted dev time on a system to apply tomes over time as you level. The notion of making new players equal to reincarnated toon or even a new toon of an experienced player is ridiculous. The intricate knowledge of the game and ability to twink each by themselves and together completely gives the experienced player a huge advantage. I have been playing several low level toons lately and there is no question on this point. This being the case, why not just apply all tomes at level 1 on reincarnation and eliminate all the other code? The current plan does not create balance, so why anger so many just for appearances?

Though some may have known of this in advance, the vast majority had no idea. Congratulations to those who have the time to peruse the forums for such info. The fact is that most players never visit the forums let alone read them in depth. I personally view the dev tracker and read all the dev posts daily in the false hope that I will become aware of all significant game events and plans. Like many, I don't have time for more due to commitments outside of gaming. Personally, I now have several +2 tomes muled and two level 4/5 toons who ate +2 int tomes at level 1 prior to the last mod. I have two accounts and have been focussed else were recently, but could have easily have leveled them had I any idea this was coming. Now they will permanently loose their full rogue skills.

[Dark_Helmet]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.

From the Known Issues:
In order to support reincarnation, all tomes will now have a minimum level associated with them. If you use a tome with no minimum level displayed before you are eligible, the benefits of that tome will be gradually applied as you reach the appropriate levels.

For example: If you use a +2 tome at level 1, you'll receive the first stat point at level 3, and the second stat point at level 7.

Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

It is ironic that you can retroactively nerf things like tomes, but not fix older items that didn't function properly (such as certain hand wraps) without having to loot the new version.

[caution]

Update 1 comes with a retroactive change to existing tomes that we want to make sure you are aware of.
...
Reincarnation is not yet in-game and will be available in the future, but this change was made now in order to lay the foundation. Sorry for any inconvenience, and thanks for your understanding!

***! That's really funked... not frigging impressed that this had to be snuck in to put it bluntly.

Inconvience is an understatement... all to support respec which I still think should be one of the lowest priorities for updates!!

At least the change is fair.. shame it had to be done like that.

[JayDubya]

I'm honestly a bit confused. The only one for which this really matters is INT, and the only scenario(s) I can think of in which it matters are:

a) the loss of 3-6 skill points
b) you have to take CE later and another feat earlier, and that might be difficult in some cases


Is that it???? Or am I missing something?

[Shamurai]

Wheras I do feel bad for those that are upset by this. I've never even pulled a +1 tome yet so obviously I'm not affected...

On a side note.. I'll gladly accept all those "worthless" +2 tomes that y'all seem to think are useless now, I'd find them verrrrry useful!

I hope all the vets affected dont quit in a huff because they won't be a LEET as they thought. I've found so many of you to be helpful, insightful and welcomed the chance to learn more from you guys and gals.

Every MMORPG has nerfs thrown in now and then... and when it happens you can do one of two things.. use the spongy material to mop up after your lamentations... or grab a few good friends and play some football.

The fact that you have 32 -36 (with reincarnate when it comes) annnnd +2 tomes will still make you way more ELITE then the large influx of 28pt free --> VIP's coming in now.

[Harncw]

I understand that the DEVs HAD to change this, I mean it's not like there are toons out there that ate multiple +1 tomes back when they stacked or anything... o wait...
Well anyway they changed it, nerfed us, etc.

What bothered me was that alot of vets had banked multiple +2 tomes and were holding on to them as currency. The DEVs come along and make the change (conveniently forget to make it official) and a lot of people got burned. In fact on our server +2 tomes went up in value temporarily when reincarnation was found, only to then crash and burn with the discovery of the tome level changes.

I managed to dump all my +2 int tomes on the AH, I lost alotta coin over these tome schenanigans. Whoever bought all my tomes on the AH lost even more.

Does Turbine realize that they are playing God here with the economies? Can we at least get a typically meaningless statement that they will try to avoid doing so in the future?

Should I even bother buying large scales fearing they are going to add them to the DDO store, put them next to the smalls they sell there already? What assurance does the consumer have to participate in an economy where turbine can cause such chaos?

+2 tomes
Mana pots
Small Ingredients

What's next?

[narizue]

Meh. Just yet another reason to not bother logging in, and enjoy other games.

[Jovial]

I have 10 +2 tomes the only ones that would be worthless if you are loooking at it that way are the INT the rest it doesnt matter and they Int are still selling so to call them worthless is foolish IMHO and dude it is a game how are you taking a huge Financial loss. Remeber all that any off this stuff is are pixels. If you are getting this worked up about it might i suggest you step away from the computer and look outside and read somethings going on in the world and that might put this all in perspective for you.


I was so mad when the mod was last delayed I almost quit. Then I decided that I would use that extra time to collect pre mod +2 int tomes and continue to wait and wait for new content. Now they have taken that away! Considering the effort I went through to acquire 5 of said tomes then If you have 10 +2 int tomes then you are either exaggerating about the contents of your bank or you are the one that needs to get away from your computer for awile.

[pumagirl418]

I like it. I've never been a fan of having different equipment in the game. All changes should be retroactive, no grandfathering. Barbarians should have had their Enhancements reset.

That's right, I said it. The rules should be as the rules are, not varying degrees of grandfathered in mess.

really?! that would make sense if turbine didn't act like the spoiled kid with the ball, changing the rules to suit them. Or how about an equal playing field npc vs player, what do i mean with that... well dang I can't smack someone with my bow when I'm out of ammo or they close in close(prison of the planes, and wow can the smack you) or run up a pile of rumble and shoot others (well gee, prison of the planes to name one, this quest chosen for size comparison human vs human). or recently brought to my attention, monsters get fractional hit points? huh wha!? etc.


don't like this change, its not like there was an overabundance of tomes from pre-unlimited. yes i see that it was more than likely to happen.

[Cyr]

Hold on... you put in tech to support keeping tomes on lesser/greater reincarnation? Put that tech on True Reincarnation also. Having to relevel a guy with huge amount more xp is painful enough. Losing tomes is just salt in the wounds...particularly since tomes are a type of loot.

[Patris]

Well as my 24 +2 tomes are now useless for my future builds, after saving them up for over 2+ years, i guess i could see if my credit card company will retro-active credit my acct....hey, it's worth a try.....

[Emili]

I'm honestly a bit confused. The only one for which this really matters is INT, and the only scenario(s) I can think of in which it matters are:

a) the loss of 3-6 skill points
b) you have to take CE later and another feat earlier, and that might be difficult in some cases


Is that it???? Or am I missing something?
You mean place them later... i.e. str 16 dex 14 int 10, and you managed to spec thru fred for GTWF and Improved trip over time... and spec'd in lower slots. A 28 point build and get the bright idea of going 32 bumping up str 3 build points and cha 1 build point and respec. It is where you are borderline and you have multiple stat dependant feat chains where problems arise in reincarnation. - This is most common on 28 pointers as stats are thin to begin with.

The feat slots 12 15 18 cannot hold four feats - so multiple trips to fred are required to place them back in the lower feat slots after the respec.

[Shamurai]

Posting my Billboards:

"Accepting all them WORTHLESS tomes.... let Turbines Nerf allow you to pay it forward!"

"Help the GIMPED Newbs by donating all that rubbish. I mean serisouly... what can I possibly need +2 in a stat by lvl 7"

"Adopt a Newb: Donate a tome"

"Help my Dex Sucks: Got Tome?"

"Intelligence is for the symbol minded, where's my TOMB?" (<-- misspell intentional as I r dum)

I really really really (no really not sarcasm I swear.. i mean it) am sorry that many lost money by "speculating" or that othes will lose out by not getting their skill points, or feats waaaaaaaaaaaay earlier then my toons could ever imagine of. Most changes (in game or pretty much everywhere in the world) tend to hurt those that came before to some extent, but often these are made with the "intent" to make the world better for those to come.

This change does help, to a degree, balance out the lvl of power between the vets and the noobs, at least in regards to stats. I mean you still get the stat bumps, I've never even held a +1 tome in my hands let alone a +2-+5... and nooo way can I even afford to buy one on the AH.. so bascially compared to vets even with this change: My stats are lower, my skill points are lower, my twinked gear is lower (well Cujo/ Cangina gifts aside), my ability to play well is less, my knowledge of the game is less, my build is inferior...

I think I only exceed the vets in one area.. Enthusisam.. I LOVE THIS GAME! It's still awesome filled with mystery, challenge and adventure. I think this game is extremely FUN, and that's why I play. I am sorry, truly sorry if the owners of +2 tomes aren't having fun anymore. Please don't leave though. I need you.

[Phidius]

...

This change does help, to a degree, balance out the lvl of power between the vets and the noobs, at least in regards to stats. I mean you still get the stat bumps, I've never even held a +1 tome in my hands let alone a +2-+5... and nooo way can I even afford to buy one on the AH.. so bascially compared to vets even with this change: My stats are lower, my skill points are lower, my twinked gear is lower (well Cujo/ Cangina gifts aside), my ability to play well is less, my knowledge of the game is less, my build is inferior...


This is not about vets wanting to retain power over the new players. This is not about losing extra skill points, or even about losing millions of plat.

This is about Turbine shafting people who trusted them to not take away something they worked hard for.

How about those people who recently acquired their very first WoP?
How about those people who built an AC toon so they wouldn't get hit except on a 20?
How about those people who built 2 Mineral IIs?
How about those people who saw Turbine DELIBERATELY grandfather no minimum level tomes, when Turbine obviously has the ability to globaly replace anything they want?

How about those people who have suddenly lost their motivation to play the game when Turbine repeatedly takes away something we have worked for to make it "fair" for newer players?

And for those people who say "It's a game - play it, don't work it" I have one question for you.





Would you play this game if Turbine deleted 10% of all characters every week?

[Garund]

What's next?

"Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria, the end of the world!!!!"

DOOOMMMM

Sorry, couldn't help myself:D (the above quote may not be exact:rolleyes:)

Personally I find it funny that when Turbine initially announced the ML changes to tomes, people had a knee-jerk reaction and rushed out to try and scoop up as many no ML-restricted +2 INT tomes. I've got a ton of no ML tomes sitting in the bank I guess because I'm more cautious than most and haven't burned them. I was waiting to see what the fallout from TR was going to be like.

You would think that if you've been here awhile you would have learned your lesson(s) in that something new from Turbine comes along and changes an older aspect of the game.

It's also been known for quite some time now and Turbine has explained it very well numerous times that if you True Reincarnate, you loose all tomes used on that toon. Whatever.....

Just my 2 cps

Gar

[Xyfiel]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w215/Xyfiel/tolerobroc.jpg

Sorry Memnir, it had to be done.

[04pugdog04]

I was so mad when the mod was last delayed I almost quit. Then I decided that I would use that extra time to collect pre mod +2 int tomes and continue to wait and wait for new content. Now they have taken that away! Considering the effort I went through to acquire 5 of said tomes then If you have 10 +2 int tomes then you are either exaggerating about the contents of your bank or you are the one that needs to get away from your computer for awile.

Or I have very good loot luck which I do and made some very good trades and hung onto them in hopes to make a kiling when people rerolled with the true Reincarnate but alas I gambled and lost such is life like when i go to the casino or when i tank in the stock market.

[TehSilence]

No, it could have been worse. It could have broken in a way that it let you eat the non-min level tome and get NO benefit from it, rather than a spaced out one.

Originally this was supposed to be covered in our reincarnation chatter, but when reincarnation got pushed out, so too did the discussion about this :( that's my bad. When I was going through the KIs from another thread I realized that it didn't make it in >< so I'll go ahead and highlight some of that here:

There is no way for us to predict WHEN you would eat a tome. When you lesser/greater reincarnate, we have to assign your tome to some point in time. There's no way for us to predict that you would want to use your tome at the level that you did. Maybe you looted your tome way late and ate it as a higher level character because that's when you got access to it. There's not a way for the system to go "ah I see that now that you're reincarnating, and had a +2 tome that you used in your last life at level X, you are destined to eat that tome at level Y to get the most skill points when you take that level of [class] at level Z". We had to standardize the tomes so the reincarnation NPCs can predictably apply the stat bonus.

We also wished to give more equality to the benefits of tomes - by the book, a +2 Intelligence tome eaten at level 5 is significantly more powerful than one that was eaten at level 15 due to the additional skill points. By "phasing tomes in" - +1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 19, we level the playing field and give people a way to retroactively gain skill points for tomes eaten late.

We had planned on not changing the old tomes to be impacted by min level, but they got sucked into mix by virtue of the reincarnation. We can't predict that you are going to eat a no-min-level tome but NOT reincarnate. We can't say "sorry you can't reincarnate because you ate a non-min-level tome" either.

These were things originally meant to be covered in the dev diary but the dev diary got delayed due to the feature push, and I missed adding it to the KI so that is totally my bad.

Also note that even though reincarnation is not available for you to access because we're still working on it, the code for it is still in the game atm. We've just suppressed it so you can't access it because it's not yet in a state where it's ready for mass consumption. Thus the items are being affected by the changes because the changes ARE there, you just can't access them.

Erm... why don't you just say that (true) reincarnation is a reward for the player for their dedication and perseverance in getting to level 20, and give them their tome bonuses right from level 1?

I mean, is it really that bad to offer up a bone like that to players that have staying power? So they are overpowered at low levels; they have the xp penalty to deal with. Is being overpowered in the Waterworks really going to do anything other than stoke the fires of other players to play more and longer (Turbine: chaching!) to achieve the same thing?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It was not well discussed. We asked for clarification multiple times about all the stuff people are upset about and got no reply. Players discussing it is largely irrelevant since we can only discuss what we see. We have no idea if it is a bug or it is working as intended...or whether they plan to fix/change something. We need Turbine's feedback. We asked for it. Repeatedly. We didn't get it.

We've been told repeatedly that this Update marks the beginning of the ability to do incremental updates, etc. and that we should expect them in the future. Let's assume the "Gee whiz, I forgot to tell you about this admittedly big change" excuse is real. In that case, they should have leveraged their new tech and not implemented these changes until they gave us the warning and fully explained the changes.

That's not true, Mad did reply a couple times in one thread on the subject and asked some followup questions and was clearly confused on the subject. The fact that you didn't read that thread and that as usually people started dozens of threads doesn't change the fact that they DID respond. It just wasn't clear what they would when it went live. T's comments in this thread seem to back up what Mad was saying about the imact on non Reincarnation people was an accident.

[TehSilence]

I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying, when you use a tome you should immediately get your inherent bonus. Period. They broke this simple feature because it made it easier for them to handle tomes in lesser/greater reincarnation, but it does not mean there is no way around.

Basically, they should have left the tomes' code alone, and instead coded something in the leveling process of reincarnation to make you use a +1/+2/+3 etc. when you re-level up (instead, I'm pretty sure they make you use a tome at character creation and let the new tomes' code do its stuff).

And yes, you can tell I don't know anything about the DDO code, which is true, but I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't possible (I agree it's probably some extra work they don't want to put effort into though, because they have higher priorities for development :().

Yes, it seems that the fault is with the reincarnation code itself. "Just leaving the tome's code alone" is probably what they did, and the reincarnation code is the culprit that's forcing the skill bonuses from tomes to be handled differently.

Still, there seems like there are some philosophical reasons we just aren't hearing, like "we have to enforce these new minimum level guidelines on tomes NO MATTER WHAT!". I say that because there should be more options on how to handle this than have been discussed (not that many have). If some of these unmentioned restrictions were relaxed, maybe there would be some more solutions available that might salvage some of the player's trust. Most of the other major nerfage hasn't hit me, but this one did, right in the coffers.

I don't know the DDO code, but I am a developer. It sure seems like they tried to make reincarnation more complex than it needed to be.

[tihocan]

Yes, it seems that the fault is with the reincarnation code itself. "Just leaving the tome's code alone" is probably what they did, and the reincarnation code is the culprit that's forcing the skill bonuses from tomes to be handled differently.
Well we can debate forever on which part of the code is tied to tome and which is tied to reincarnation... but the fact is, they changed the part where when you use a tome, you are immediately awarded an inherent bonus to your stat. There are various ways it could have been done. The easiest way I can think of is simply to do something like:
current_inherent_bonus = min(inherent_bonus, inherent_bonus_cap_by_level)
where "inherent_bonus" is given by your tome usage, and "inherent_bonus_cap_by_level" is 0 at L1-2, 1 at L3-6, 2 at L7..., etc.
It's easy to implement, it's easy to make it work with reincarnation (just keep the value of "inherent_bonus" tied to your character), but... it breaks tomes with no ML. Sounds exactly like what's going on ;)

[RTN]

That's not true, Mad did reply a couple times in one thread on the subject and asked some followup questions and was clearly confused on the subject. The fact that you didn't read that thread and that as usually people started dozens of threads doesn't change the fact that they DID respond. It just wasn't clear what they would when it went live.

Funny, your "fact" is incorrect. I read the thread. There was one other thread that I recall that specifically raised the issue, not "dozens". Turbine's job is to monitor that stuff.

I guess we define discussion and well discussed differently. The dev asked questions and did not reply to our questions or requests for clarification. Devs and community relations folks did not provide any clarification. We asked for it repeatedly in the appropriate places. I don't consider that a real discussion.

You're right, it wasn't clear what would happen when it went live and that is why we asked for clarification. That is precisely the information that they should have provided us with, particularly since the no ML tomes were grandfathered in.

[KoboldKiller]

And being as it wasn't clear (to some anyway) it was foolish of some to start hoarding tomes and spending all of their plat without knowing for sure what would happen. Thus is the nature of speculation, you took the risk but did not get the reward.

[admcorbin]

give me a break. this was expected for a long time. its not like if you use it you totally lose the benefits.. atleast you get to have the items. ya know sometimes I think this game has the most amount of whiners in it.

[Battleworm]

Wheras I do feel bad for those that are upset by this. I've never even pulled a +1 tome yet so obviously I'm not affected...

On a side note.. I'll gladly accept all those "worthless" +2 tomes that y'all seem to think are useless now, I'd find them verrrrry useful!

I hope all the vets affected dont quit in a huff because they won't be a LEET as they thought. I've found so many of you to be helpful, insightful and welcomed the chance to learn more from you guys and gals.

Every MMORPG has nerfs thrown in now and then... and when it happens you can do one of two things.. use the spongy material to mop up after your lamentations... or grab a few good friends and play some football.

The fact that you have 32 -36 (with reincarnate when it comes) annnnd +2 tomes will still make you way more ELITE then the large influx of 28pt free --> VIP's coming in now.


If you had any clue,your input would mean something.It has nothing to do with wanting to be Elite or uber or whatever.You can tell who is by questing with em 5 seconds,not by going to myddo.com.It's about sneaky changes that were not really mentioned and if they were,were never expanded on.That's what make me upset,not sure about other people.And mentioning that you never pulled a +1 tome confirms your opinion is not worth much as you haven't played nearly long enough to be affected by anything.Those that have been around for a while have been and that's what they are upset about.Players asked for changes that were ignored for years on broken items / quests /feats /capstone whatever but instead they go and nerf something that wasn't necessary.Just like the haste spell.I'm still angry with that.The only characters that don't feel slow now are favored souls with wings or rangers / barbs with sprint boosts.Now THAT sucks.

[KoboldKiller]

If you had any clue,your input would mean something.It has nothing to do with wanting to be Elite or uber or whatever.You can tell who is by questing with em 5 seconds,not by going to myddo.com.It's about sneaky changes that were not really mentioned and if they were,were never expanded on.That's what make me upset,not sure about other people.And mentioning that you never pulled a +1 tome confirms your opinion is not worth much as you haven't played nearly long enough to be affected by anything.Those that have been around for a while have been and that's what they are upset about.Players asked for changes that were ignored for years on broken items / quests /feats /capstone whatever but instead they go and nerf something that wasn't necessary.Just like the haste spell.I'm still angry with that.The only characters that don't feel slow now are favored souls with wings or rangers / barbs with sprint boosts.Now THAT sucks.


They didn't NERF it. This was an unexpected result of putting in a RESPEC that players were ASKING for. It was not done intentionally which would constitute a NERF. And to tell someone they haven't played enough to have something affect them based on not pulling a tome is a incorrect assumption. That player could have been playing for some time and had terrible luck. They could have been playing since the new MOD came out and update 1 could have changed something that affected them. Just because you may have played longer doesn't mean your opinion is better or invalidates theirs.

[jakeelala]

I MADE 2 THREADS ABOUT THIS 3-4 WEEKS AGO AND POSTED THEM IN GENERAL DISCUSSION AND KHYBER MARKETPLACE.

This was by NO means an unexpected change or a suprise.

I wanred you all. Just simmer down and figure out the next big scam in this game like we know some of you will anyway.

Good grief. And anyone who leaves after this? Good riddance.

Khyber Marketplace: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207943
General Discussion: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207940

[t3pt6k]

They didn't NERF it. This was an unexpected result of putting in a RESPEC that players were ASKING for. It was not done intentionally which would constitute a NERF.

Actually it is a NERF or more correctly was planned to be a NERF at a later date, it just wasn't supposed to be done right now with Update 1 that is the unexpected result. They have talked about knowing about it, knowing it was going to change for the RESPEC update, doing communication planning to deal with it prior to rolling it out.

[dasein18]

I MADE 2 THREADS ABOUT THIS 3-4 WEEKS AGO AND POSTED THEM IN GENERAL DISCUSSION AND KHYBER MARKETPLACE.

This was by NO means an unexpected change or a suprise.

I wanred you all. Just simmer down and figure out the next big scam in this game like we know some of you will anyway.

Good grief. And anyone who leaves after this? Good riddance.

Khyber Marketplace: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207943
General Discussion: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207940

Can I get on your mailing list.. cause I guess with my RL and not spending enough time on the forums to make sure items I have will not be nerfed... I did not see this. So my fault for having a job that requires me to work 50+ hours a week.. and that one I get done I just want to play to unwind. I only check forums during luch break or times when I need to distract myself.

I do thank you for what you did, post to help the forum readers, but keep in mind that does not mean we are ALL going to know about this before hand. Lots of folks do not even go to the forums.

[jakeelala]

Correction:

I posted this 2 weeks ago, not 3-4 for anyone who's panties might bunch up over that miscalcualtion of days.

Also, for the above poster about not checking the forums, I'm sorry. I thought about putting the Marketplace thread in ALL marketplaces, but I just didn't have the time to do it.

I did the best I could. I also am more of a casual player than a hardcore one, so my time is limited. I did tell everyoen in game I could hoping it would start more of a wildfire. I think vets intentionally kept it quiet to get higher prices on the tomes they were moving out at extrodinary prices pre-Update 1 (ie until 2 days ago).

Call me a conspiricst, but that's my take. Now they're ating mad because the chagne is a ltitle different than they were expecting, or they didn't pay attention.

This is a good and needed change. New players have no idea what it means to get an extra +2 int tome with no ML to boost stats. This levels the playing field a bit.

[Shamurai]

Originally Posted by Battleworm http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/green/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2520435#post2520435)
If you had any clue,your input would mean something.It has nothing to do with wanting to be Elite or uber or whatever.You can tell who is by questing with em 5 seconds,not by going to myddo.com.It's about sneaky changes that were not really mentioned and if they were,were never expanded on.That's what make me upset,not sure about other people.And mentioning that you never pulled a +1 tome confirms your opinion is not worth much as you haven't played nearly long enough to be affected by anything.Those that have been around for a while have been and that's what they are upset about.Players asked for changes that were ignored for years on broken items / quests /feats /capstone whatever but instead they go and nerf something that wasn't necessary.Just like the haste spell.I'm still angry with that.The only characters that don't feel slow now are favored souls with wings or rangers / barbs with sprint boosts.Now THAT sucks.



I admit I don't REALLY understand the full implications of this change. From what I've read it means:
~ up to like 6 less skill points (but stil more then someone who has never had a tome)
~ Not getting TWF at lvl 6, but having to wait a smidge longer (like everyone else unless you've GR cuz yer 34 point build will prolly allow for it.)
~ Millions of Plat wasted on Speculation (That's just it. Was a Speculation, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose... those that speculated a nerf would happen prolly made Millions from the hoarders)
~ This isn't about not fixing other things.. I read the list many other things were fixed. This update although a nerf to OLD ways of making perfect builds does help with balancing and creating NEW better builds then existed before..... a 34 or 36 pt build with at +1 at lvl 3 and +1 at level 7 beats the tar ouutty my 28 pt build with no tomes ever (and yes I am unlucky with loot but that's okay)
~ I agree there are other things that need fixing, capstones, feats, quests etc.. but that is off topic for this post which is about the +2 tome (nerf)
~ Inexperience in DDO doesn't mean I am a) stupid, b) ignorant in MMORPG c) oblivious to the affects of change and the rules of NERF when a compnay patches or modifies a game. I think 99% of all MODS/UPDATES are directly based on player demand or request. We want more we want different we want better... and we get it... Some seem to think they Want or Deserve "EVERYTHING" which is impossible to give everything to everyone as we all want different things. What a Permadeath person wants is surely verrry different then a RP'er and the Power Gamer. ie. (my guesse)

Permadeath - Wants a Deathblock Item and Perhaps DeathPact item that prevents them from dying in those "oopsie" moments

Role Player - A House, a new haircut, pretty armor, and familiars (and more Gygax narrations, which sadly can't happen)

Power Gamer - Elixir of Hecka More Xp, and + Loot Chance, and Teleport to Raid tabs.

So BLAMO Turbine gives us everything, right now, instantaneous.. for free, for pay or for favor.. if you have any of the above it's YOURS... YAY everyone is happy...

*cricket cricket* hey where'd everyone go.. what you left because you're bored with nothing to do, nothing to want, nothing to see and all the time in the world to do it?? Sigh.

[dasein18]

[QUOTE=jakeelala;2520657]Correction:

I posted this 2 weeks ago, not 3-4 for anyone who's panties might bunch up over that miscalcualtion of days.

Also, for the above poster about not checking the forums, I'm sorry. I thought about putting the Marketplace thread in ALL marketplaces, but I just didn't have the time to do it.

QUOTE]



No worries, I do thank you for trying. My major issue is I did not see anything official from Turbine.. did not think a bug from a test server would go live (silly me.. should have just thought what would Microsoft do...) and was furious when I read Tolera ADMIT it is a bug that they LET go live.

[Jovial]

This is a good and needed change. New players have no idea what it means to get an extra +2 int tome with no ML to boost stats. This levels the playing field a bit.

Yeah now I see your point. Lets go the rest of the way shall we. All starting stats on all toons should be 13. All classes should have the same powers and drawbacks and all races should have identical abilitys. All loot in all chests should be exactly the same for everyone and no one should be able to level until everyone on the server can at the same time. This way its FAIR for everyone!!!

[Tolero]

it is a bug that they LET go live.

Just to be clear...we don't LET bugs go live. Sometimes they are found when it's too late to help it. Updates are kind of like a freight train that you can't just STOP when you notice there's a person on the tracks. But we were supposed to be triggering that railroad crossing sign. And my train analogy kinda lost some steam towards the end but the point is - I was supposed to be talking with you all about it. That doesn't change that the train is coming or that the person is on the tracks.

[Jovial]

That doesn't change that the train is coming or that the person is on the tracks.

I just wish I would stop being the one on the tracks. Or at the very least told that the train was coming before im acually hit.

[Minor_Threat]

who cares? we got pirate hats! arrrr.

[dasein18]

Just to be clear...we don't LET bugs go live. Sometimes they are found when it's too late to help it. Updates are kind of like a freight train that you can't just STOP when you notice there's a person on the tracks. But we were supposed to be triggering that railroad crossing sign. And my train analogy kinda lost some steam towards the end but the point is - I was supposed to be talking with you all about it. That doesn't change that the train is coming or that the person is on the tracks.

Yet Turbine released the Module?

Yet Turbine pushed back DDOEU months.. then another month to get it right? Remember all those threads earlier this year?

Mixed messages here Turbine.

[Shamurai]

Yeah now I see your point. Lets go the rest of the way shall we. All starting stats on all toons should be 13. All classes should have the same powers and drawbacks and all races should have identical abilitys. All loot in all chests should be exactly the same for everyone and no one should be able to level until everyone on the server can at the same time. This way its FAIR for everyone!!!

A bit... excessive... this in no way "levels" the field by linearly applying your hard earned stat book.. You still get the gains and the benefits, long before my toon will ever chomp down a tome. You weren't "hit by a train", that would most likely kill you... More like you entered the AoE of a Stinking Cloud... it's unpleasant... and takes some getting used to, but when the effect wears off (like at lvl 7) you will find that all is well, and the Chest can still be looted.

[dasein18]

Just to be clear...we don't LET bugs go live. Sometimes they are found when it's too late to help it. Updates are kind of like a freight train that you can't just STOP when you notice there's a person on the tracks. But we were supposed to be triggering that railroad crossing sign. And my train analogy kinda lost some steam towards the end but the point is - I was supposed to be talking with you all about it. That doesn't change that the train is coming or that the person is on the tracks.

Can you answer if this bug will be fixed? I have an actual toon with a +2 tome that is less then level 3.. would you (Tolero) advise me to wait on leveling to it gets fixed OR play the toon as it might not get fixed. Sorry to put you on the spot.. but would like to know.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yet Turbine released the Module?

Yet Turbine pushed back DDOEU months.. then another month to get it right? Remember all those threads earlier this year?

Mixed messages here Turbine.

the month delay fro eu had nothing to do with content and had to do with realizing they didn't have enough hardware to support a launch that was way more successful than they hoped. In the end the delay was the right thing as the influx of players was huge and still is one almost 2 months in.

[Tolero]

Or at the very least told that the train was coming before im acually hit.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. The part in red, that was supposed to be what I was doing.

[Jovial]

Just to be clear...we don't LET bugs go live. Sometimes they are found when it's too late to help it.

Since you admit that its a bug whatever will you do to make it right with the customer base that has suffered from it? If this was a bug that was advantageous to us we all know it would already be fixed!

[dasein18]

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. The part in red, that was supposed to be what I was doing.

Very cool of you to admit.... as you did not have to as none of us would never have known.

[BLAKROC]

Just to be clear...we don't LET bugs go live. Sometimes they are found when it's too late to help it. Updates are kind of like a freight train that you can't just STOP when you notice there's a person on the tracks. But we were supposed to be triggering that railroad crossing sign. And my train analogy kinda lost some steam towards the end but the point is - I was supposed to be talking with you all about it. That doesn't change that the train is coming or that the person is on the tracks.

i do question that you dont' let bugs go live ! the known issues list is full of them and has been for years. If it was only a somtime thing i would grant turbine the benefit of the doubt, but since it appears to be a CONSTANT well you get the idea I am sure.

The changing of the tomes if just plain WRONG. turbine knows it the majority of the player base knows it, now it's time to fix it.

Simplest way is to do away with the min level on all +1 AND +2 tomes. That way there should be no issues, keep them on the +3 and higher but clear up the tome mess please as it is really a slap in the face to the vets that have been supporting this game for years, to the benefit of players that have just recently joined, and that is UNFAIR yet again.
I don't care about the issues of makin coin off them, I do care about the time I have spent aquiring them, thru running quests to EARN them, then same as all the rest can do if they choose.

[jakeelala]

Can you answer if this bug will be fixed? I have an actual toon with a +2 tome that is less then level 3.. would you (Tolero) advise me to wait on leveling to it gets fixed OR play the toon as it might not get fixed. Sorry to put you on the spot.. but would like to know.

I'm not sure there's anything to fix.

The new standard is Tome effects start at certain ML's based on their bonus. Eat it whenever you like, but the bonus and the ML are what they are. Sicne this is intrinsic to Reincarnate being possible in it's myriad forms, I doubt it will change.

But that's just a guess. In the absence of a dev response, I would err on the side of it not changing.

[Minor_Threat]

I'm not sure there's anything to fix.

The new standard is Tome effects start at certain ML's based on their bonus. Eat it whenever you like, but the bonus and the ML are what they are. Sicne this is intrinsic to Reincarnate being possible in it's myriad forms, I doubt it will change.

But that's just a guess. In the absence of a dev response, I would err on the side of it not changing.

and I TOLD YOU SO!



...

[dasein18]

I'm not sure there's anything to fix.

The new standard is Tome effects start at certain ML's based on their bonus. Eat it whenever you like, but the bonus and the ML are what they are. Sicne this is intrinsic to Reincarnate being possible in it's myriad forms, I doubt it will change.

But that's just a guess. In the absence of a dev response, I would err on the side of it not changing.

The fault in your logic is that Turbine admits this is a bug to older no ML tomes. Hence the new standard was not supposed to apply to these. If they said.. this is the way it will be ... deal with it.. then your logic would hold.

[Junts]

The fault in your logic is that Turbine admits this is a bug to older no ML tomes. Hence the new standard was not supposed to apply to these. If they said.. this is the way it will be ... deal with it.. then your logic would hold.

Except Eladrin posted specifically that when this change came in, all no-ml tomes were going to gain a ml overnight.

So you were losing them when reincarnation came in no matter what; get over it already.

[Jovial]

I don't care about the issues of makin coin off them, I do care about the time I have spent aquiring them, thru running quests to EARN them, then same as all the rest can do if they choose.

I mostly agree here. For me its not even the time and effort I spent but more the time and effort I cant spend now on future things knowing this might happen again with something else or at this rate everything else.

[jakeelala]

...

has the definition of trolling changed or am I just old-fashioned?

There was no I told you so in any part of that post. Let it go dude.

[Tolero]

Can you answer if this bug will be fixed? I have an actual toon with a +2 tome that is less then level 3.. would you (Tolero) advise me to wait on leveling to it gets fixed OR play the toon as it might not get fixed. Sorry to put you on the spot.. but would like to know.

If you have no min-level tome currently (especially higher stat tomes), it is the most advantageous to eat it NOW before patch, because you won't be able to get the same staggered application after the patch that you're getting right now. And by before patch, that time is measured in days not weeks or months.

[jakeelala]

The fault in your logic is that Turbine admits this is a bug to older no ML tomes. Hence the new standard was not supposed to apply to these. If they said.. this is the way it will be ... deal with it.. then your logic would hold.

Well maybe you read somethign I didn't, but I never saw anything anywhere that said you could get around this.

As I read it even if you had a ML1 +2 tome, it's effects wouldn't happen until level 7. The tome level became irrelvant, as systemically the bonus has an ML, the tome is just cosmetic.

I found that to be clear 2 weeks ago when this came up, but as I said, maybe I missed a confusing comment somewhere. Thereforethere is no fix, per se. They could allow you to eat that tome at lvl1, but you were never getting the effects as of update 1 until lvl 7 anyway, so it's meaningless when you eat it.

[dasein18]

Except Eladrin posted specifically that when this change came in, all no-ml tomes were going to gain a ml overnight.

So you were losing them when reincarnation came in no matter what; get over it already.

Is it this one, below? If so then Eladrin said how they will act. Not that this is final, the bug will stay, etc. I am just asking if the bug will stay. You do not like that I am asking for clarification? Then read other threads or help me with my question please.

"Lesser and Greater Reincarnation will retain your tomes, and re-apply them as you level up, at the minimum levels they would be applied. If you ate a +3 tome at level 18 and then lesser reincarnated, you would end up with +1 at levels 3-6, +2 at level 7-10, and +3 at level 11+."

[dasein18]

If you have no min-level tome currently (especially higher stat tomes), it is the most advantageous to eat it NOW before patch, because you won't be able to get the same staggered application after the patch that you're getting right now. And by before patch, that time is measured in days not weeks or months.

Thank you very much for the prompt response.

[jakeelala]

If you have no min-level tome currently (especially higher stat tomes), it is the most advantageous to eat it NOW before patch, because you won't be able to get the same staggered application after the patch that you're getting right now. And by before patch, that time is measured in days not weeks or months.

This I don't understand compeltely. Could you give a little more detail?

As I understand it, any tome I eat will give me effects based on the bonus (+1 lvl 3, +2 lvl 7, +3...whatever no one has those layign around unless they raided)

If i have a ML1 +2 and eat it NOW, it still wont give points until lvl 7, right? Whats the rush to eat them pre-patch?

[Jovial]

So is there going to be nothing but a "we are sorry but to bad so sad" or can any of you "Devs" think of any way to make this right with the folks that are getting burned from your "bug" I really need an answer here.

[Cuth]

Jakeelala -- as far as I can tell you're not an official Turbine employee so I have to take your warning w/ the same grain of salt I take everything I see on the forums.

That aside -- nothing in your post indicates if this is a bug or working as intended. Turbine had previously clearly stated that old no-ML tomes would be grandfathered. Having a clear directive from Turbine Leadership vs. a random post on the Forums, I think you can understand why people didn't take the post as gospel.


And being as it wasn't clear (to some anyway) it was foolish of some to start hoarding tomes and spending all of their plat without knowing for sure what would happen. Thus is the nature of speculation, you took the risk but did not get the reward.

There was no speculating ... Turbine had previously clearly stated that no-ML tomes would grandfathered in and only NEW tomes would be impacted by the changes. As players, we had no reason to expect this would be changed. In fact, when they announced the Reincarnation, it made sense that some players would splurge on these 0 ml tomes as Reincarnation strips your tomes and some players would want these benefits as soon as possible. (Something that Turbine should have known.)

Let me be clear --

I don't even have a no ml tome -- this changes impacts me 0% ... and honestly even if I did I don't think it's that big a deal (although 1% of me secretly thinks they're trying to force people to respec their feats more often to drive them to buy the respec stones from the ddo store.)

What irks me is the poor communication ... we need to be able to trust the devs when they say something and if they need to change a previous stance then it needs to be communicated to us as soon as possible so we can adjust accordingly.

The devs are going to make changes; some we'll like and some we won't, but I think most of us are just concerned in this instance with HOW they go about making & communicating those changes.

[dasein18]

This I don't understand compeltely. Could you give a little more detail?

As I understand it, any tome I eat will give me effects based on the bonus (+1 lvl 3, +2 lvl 7, +3...whatever no one has those layign around unless they raided)

If i have a ML1 +2 and eat it NOW, it still wont give points until lvl 7, right? Whats the rush to eat them pre-patch?

What happens is at lvl3 you will get +1 (ML for +1) then at LVL7 you will get another +1 (for a total of +2). In the future you will only be able to take the +2 at LVL2 not benefit at lvl3...

that is how I read the response from T.

[KoboldKiller]

If you eat a pre-patch +2 tome you will get 1 point at level 3 and the other point at level 7.

[jakeelala]

What happens is at lvl3 you will get +1 (ML for +1) then at LVL7 you will get another +1 (for a total of +2). In the future you will only be able to take the +2 at LVL2 not benefit at lvl3...

that is how I read the response from T.

Interesting. I missed that entirely. I hope you're right, it's a small perk for people with old tomes.

And I never meant anyone to take what I had to say as gospel. I was quoting MadFloyd, who is a dev (close to gospel). I never acted like I had inside information, I just culled the Lama forums for something I thought was pretty relevant that people weren't very aware of.

I think it's interesting that people are reacting negatively to me trying to call attention to something that many are now very upset about.

Don't shoot the messenger!

(Disclaimer: I have 1 +2 ML7 Int tome in the bank. I have several toons who ate +2 ML1 Int tomes at creation. I am still in favor of this change).

[KoboldKiller]

Jakeelala -- as far as I can tell you're not an official Turbine employee so I have to take your warning w/ the same grain of salt I take everything I see on the forums.

That aside -- nothing in your post indicates if this is a bug or working as intended. Turbine had previously clearly stated that old no-ML tomes would be grandfathered. Having a clear directive from Turbine Leadership vs. a random post on the Forums, I think you can understand why people didn't take the post as gospel.



There was no speculating ... Turbine had previously clearly stated that no-ML tomes would grandfathered in and only NEW tomes would be impacted by the changes. As players, we had no reason to expect this would be changed. In fact, when they announced the Reincarnation, it made sense that some players would splurge on these 0 ml tomes as Reincarnation strips your tomes and some players would want these benefits as soon as possible. (Something that Turbine should have known.)

Let me be clear --

I don't even have a no ml tome -- this changes impacts me 0% ... and honestly even if I did I don't think it's that big a deal (although 1% of me secretly thinks they're trying to force people to respec their feats more often to drive them to buy the respec stones from the ddo store.)

What irks me is the poor communication ... we need to be able to trust the devs when they say something and if they need to change a previous stance then it needs to be communicated to us as soon as possible so we can adjust accordingly.

The devs are going to make changes; some we'll like and some we won't, but I think most of us are just concerned in this instance with HOW they go about making & communicating those changes.


Except some of us were paying attention to the players who posted threads in regards to this situation thus we waited to see what happened. Others decided to use up their plat, trade scales or whatever else to hoard as many tomes as they could and paid for it. That is their loss and the risk they took.

[Junts]

Specifically, the suppression of inherent bonuses for low level characters was not intended to go live with Update 1, and was supposed to be tied to when Reincarnation hits the servers. At the same time as that, old no-ML tomes were going to be given minimum levels to match newly dropped tomes - we were planning on covering all of this in a series of reincarnation articles and explaining what's going to happen rather than springing it on you as a surprise.

Currently, you can eat a no-ML tome on a low level character and the effect will be suppressed until you reach level 3, at which point the character will gain a +1 Inherent bonus to the ability score. At level 7, you will upgrade to a +2 (if it was a +2 tome), and so on. This is undesirable because there's no feedback at this time. ("I at a tome and nothing happened!")


No, dasein, right here.

No ml tomes are not coming back, and were not under the best circumstances going to continue working for more than a couple weeks.

[jakeelala]

No, dasein, right here.

No ml tomes are not coming back, and were not under the best circumstances going to continue working for more than a couple weeks.


Thank goodness, hopefully they're focused on more content, instead of a smal change in how powergamers eek out a couple extra skill points. Which to the individual is important, but to the game as a whole is pretty much unimportant.

[Jovial]

Except some of us were paying attention to the players who posted threads in regards to this situation thus we waited to see what happened. Others decided to use up their plat, trade scales or whatever else to hoard as many tomes as they could and paid for it. That is their loss and the risk they took.

I see now that to take things Turbine said as truth is definitely a colossal risk. Although I dont understand why you are so upset with those of us who collected tomes as to call us fools and be so callous about our losses.

[dasein18]

No, dasein, right here.

No ml tomes are not coming back, and were not under the best circumstances going to continue working for more than a couple weeks.

Thank you. I did not see that one, that helps put the puzzle together for me.. and I now know that I need to level my toon that eat some no ML tomes.

[Eladrin]

Okay. We've done some more investigation, and here's what we're going to do:

Currently on the servers, inherent bonus suppression is applying to all characters. If you ate a no-minimum-level tome two years ago or today and are under the current minimum levels for the bonuses, the inherent bonuses that the tome applied being clamped. (+1 for levels 3-6, +2 for levels 7-10, +3 for levels 11-14, +4 for levels 15-18, and technically +5 for levels 19-20.)

We're going to go implement what was our original plan.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

You have a little bit of time to voraciously consume any no-ML tomes you might possess before they're replaced. They'll temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day. (If you ate a no-ML Intelligence tome, you may want to hold off on leveling until after patch day to get the full bonus.)

When you lesser or greater reincarnate a character, all tomes will be applied using the rules that new tomes follow. (+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)

[Emili]

Erm... why don't you just say that (true) reincarnation is a reward for the player for their dedication and perseverance in getting to level 20, and give them their tome bonuses right from level 1?
<<snip>>

Actually ... Tomes have no bering on "True Reincarnation" - They insist all tomes are lost in that process.

Where the claim be is on "Greater Reincarnation" and "Lesser Reincarnation"... net result and difference... Which btw, you have all your xp you're not going to run along side other characters who are not about your level (the level you were when you ate the tome)... thus you really appear to them no more powerful then others of your build.

If they applied (+4 int tome) at level one a possible 38 skill points (lvl20) vs the way they are doing it - 22 skill points (lvl20) for greater or lesser reincarnating... So then... they set levels on tomes for reincarnation process to limit top skill point expenditure of 22 vs 38 = 16 skill points is the total difference... on a level 20.

The other difference however in their approach is the player costs may need multiple feat respec's done - via Fred - to retrieve the feat lines they once had... predominately more problemactic on feat starved builds.

So the maximum difference be 16 skill points... between tome counted at level one vs the rules they came up with put forth.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

If you have no min-level tome currently (especially higher stat tomes), it is the most advantageous to eat it NOW before patch, because you won't be able to get the same staggered application after the patch that you're getting right now. And by before patch, that time is measured in days not weeks or months.

Just to be clear, are you saying that right now my +2 no-min-level tomes will become minimum level 7 after the patch that is coming in 'days', and thus I should eat them now then at least I'll get the benefit of +1 between levels 3 and 6.

Garth

[jakeelala]

Okay. We've done some more investigation, and here's what we're going to do:

Currently on the servers, inherent bonus suppression is applying to all characters. If you ate a no-minimum-level tome two years ago or today and are under the current minimum levels for the bonuses, the inherent bonuses that the tome applied being clamped. (+1 for levels 3-6, +2 for levels 7-10, +3 for levels 11-14, +4 for levels 15-18, and technically +5 for levels 19-20.)

We're going to go implement what was our original plan.

If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. On patch day, any leftover old tomes will be replaced with new tomes (that possess standard minimum levels).

You have a little bit of time to voraciously consume any no-ML tomes you might possess before they're replaced. They'll temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day. (If you ate a no-ML Intelligence tome, you may want to hold off on leveling until after patch day to get the full bonus.)

When you lesser or greater reincarnate a character, all tomes will be applied using the rules that new tomes follow. (+1 at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at level 11, +4 at level 14, +5 at level 19.)

Just to clarify, people should roll their new toons now, eat ML1 Tomes, forgo the Vet 4 levels, and wait to level past level 1 until AFTER the next patch, and then the tomes will function for that character like old tomes always did unless/until they reincarnate?

[Tolero]

Just to be clear, are you saying that right now my +2 no-min-level tomes will become minimum level 7 after the patch that is coming in 'days', and thus I should eat them now then at least I'll get the benefit of +1 between levels 3 and 6.

Garth

*points at Eladrin's post* Eladrin explained it more clearly... also going to move this discussion over to Eladrin's new thread, as otherwise it may get lost in the pages here.

[jakeelala]

Just to be clear, are you saying that right now my +2 no-min-level tomes will become minimum level 7 after the patch that is coming in 'days', and thus I should eat them now then at least I'll get the benefit of +1 between levels 3 and 6.

Garth

Eladrin actually wrote:

"If you ate a no-ML tome (or eat one over the next few days), on patch day the entire bonus will express itself fully, regardless of your character's level. "

and

"temporarily be suppressed, but they'll express their full bonuses on patch day."

Which sounds to me it's like an old ML1 tome, fully giving all bonuses at the time of eating. Not the +1 then +2.

But I could be wrong...

[dasein18]

Just to clarify, people should roll their new toons now, eat ML1 Tomes, forgo the Vet 4 levels, and wait to level past level 1 until AFTER the next patch, and then the tomes will function for that character like old tomes always did unless/until they reincarnate?

I read this as.... roll a level 1. Eat a +2 tome NOW. After patch you will get the +2 immdiately (Not at later levels). If you do not eat the tome then it will become a ML7.

Turbine is doing the RIGHT thing here by allowing no ML tomes to act the correct way if you eat before the next patch.

[dasein18]

Eladrin actually wrote:

[B]"

But I could be wrong...

I think you are correct

[Tolero]

Ok onward to Eladrin's thread folks, this way (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=210782)...