Please Add Minimum Party Size To Quest Pages

[jsaving]

When entering a quest, it would be very helpful to know up-front the minimum number of party members needed to complete it. By this I don't mean a subjective gauge of how "tough" a quest will be, but rather, whether the designers of the quest chose to include elements like simultaneously flipped levers that can't be done without a certain number of party members. A fair number of new DDO entrants have complained about not being told in advance that a quest they've spent an hour plowing through actually can't be done with the current party size, and I don't see why a game that's supposedly trying to become more small/solo-friendly can't add this information to the screen you see when entering a quest.

Granted, quests that "need" a certain number of party members can sometimes be done with less if you get lucky with web spells (I'm thinking of the burning heart tomb here) or have the proper speed/jump boosts (say, the Pit). So in this case a "minimum" party size wouldn't necessarily reflect what an experienced DDO gamer can accomplish -- but then again, that kind of gamer isn't going to be reading the quest entry window anyway.

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

[Arianrhod]

I could go for that; just a little note in the quest journal saying "4 bodies needed" or 2X25STR, 2X20WIS +1. Of course, then you might start getting requests to include optionals (Butcher's Path: 18 STR, 18 INT, Find Secret Doors & Open Locks recommended), and a "no spoilers" toggle for people who want to find out for themselves....

However, I'd rather have it on the quest journal than the quest entry screen. Don't want people locked out of soloing/duoing these quests with creative methods, hirelings, etc.

[Zenako]

The only low level quests with mulitple party member requirements have those occur very early on so not much time 'wasted". The Necro one is almost the first thing you need to accomplish. The part in Delara's two can be done with a single hireling easily. Rest for the Restless can be handled with a simple recall and reenter.

The quests with more bodies being routinely needed beyond that are mostly higher level ones or raids, and again in those quests the need occurs pretty early in the quests.

[Borror0]

The part in Delara's two can be done with a single hireling easily.
...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.

Rest for the Restless can be handled with a simple recall and reenter.
...if you want to lose XP for reentry.

The quests with more bodies being routinely needed beyond that are mostly higher level ones
I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

[Pwesiela]

All regular quests are designed for a party of 4.

[Arianrhod]

All regular quests are designed for a party of 4.

....

Which isn't very useful information to the duo who have just done the last 10 quests together with no issues, and suddenly run into one of these "you must have more bodies" quests :P

[Borror0]

All regular quests are designed for a party of 4.
Dungeon Scaling hurts this argument.

[Zenako]

I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

Ok but what is the answer. The OP seeminly was looking for a hard and fast "YOU NEED X TO COMPLETE THIS QUEST" and for almost all quests there simple is no number that is required. There are ways to work around almost all of those limits as has been shown time and time again.

Do you "NEED" 6 players for Von 5? One for each rune and each target? Do you NEED 5 players for Fleshmakers. Or does having that many just make something a little easier?

Where do you draw the line?

How many do you NEED for the PIT? Since it can be soloed, but there are also valves to turn in Furnace 3 that otherwise are a bit challenging? 2 or 3 or 4?

As for the Hireling, you can pick up one in the Store WHENEVER you want for short money (TP) if all you need is a lever flipper. No forethought required.

[Pwesiela]

....

Which isn't very useful information to the duo who have just done the last 10 quests together with no issues, and suddenly run into one of these "you must have more bodies" quests :P

The OP was about the party size for quests. There's no need for that information on a per quest basis since you can assume for every non-raid quest you enter that the quest has been designed for a party of 4.

[Pwesiela]

Dungeon Scaling hurts this argument.

Yeah, but it doesn't change what the dev's view as the baseline for scaling to effect.

[Zenako]

The OP was about the party size for quests. There's no need for that information on a per quest basis since you can assume for every non-raid quest you enter that the quest has been designed for a party of 4.

Correct, a party of 4 should be able to handle any "special" needs with no problems. If you go in with that presumption you will not be wrong on any quest (raids are another thing).

As for the scaling issue Borror0, that is a red herring in this context since the complaint was about quest mechanics that appear to require some minimum number of bodies, not how hard the mobs are to defeat.

[GeneralDiomedes]

...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.


Turbine Store hurts this argument ..

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can't see how this would be a bad thing...

[Lyria]

...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.

Or, you know, you could plan ahead and bring things you might think you'd need. Having a hireling in your pack is like bringing any other tool as a soloist. Healing pots, wands, scrolls, etc. Not the devs' fault if the player refuses to plan for contingencies.


...if you want to lose XP for reentry.

Or you could could just reset and start over, since that particular spot isn't too far into the quest. Or you could use a DD scroll, if you have the UMD for it.


I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

I'm not opposed to quests indicating the "minimum people needed", but going to the point of "minimum <stat> needed", "lockpicker needed", etc is dumbing things down way too much imo. May as well just start telling people where all the secret doors and hidden stuff is at that point.

[Angelus_dead]

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.
Ok, they did add information on the number of players suggested. But it is on the quest log, not the entry window, and more importantly, they did not firmly distinguish between "real" needs for that number of player characters, and the quest simply having some moderately difficult combats.

Xorian Cipher should be a 4, because to get below that requires some unintended tricks. But Dream of Insanity has no real need for more than 1 character.

[Borror0]

Yeah, but it doesn't change what the dev's view as the baseline for scaling to effect.
Of course but the addition of dungeon Scaling suggest that each quest can be completed by a player playing solo.

When that is not the case, warning players of that fact is the least thing to do so they do not waste their time in that quest.

Turbine Store hurts this argument ..
I know but I think that gold hireling make a poor counterargument since it requires RWM to solve the problem. You're welcomed to disagree.

Can't see how this would be a bad thing...
Of course not but that's not going to stop people from arguing against the OP.?

Well, that's if they counterarguments even attempt to address the OP's position which is not always the case...

[jsaving]

Ok, they did add information on the number of players suggested. But it is on the quest log, not the entry window, and more importantly, they did not firmly distinguish between "real" needs for that number of player characters, and the quest simply having some moderately difficult combats.
That's the real point here. If a quest is simply more difficult than usual for its level, it's still possible for a skillful small-man group or solo player to see it through to completion. But if a quest requires you to flip a couple of levers at once, or stand on a couple of pressure plates at once, then it may be preordained from the moment you try to short-man or solo a quest that you cannot complete it, no matter how skilled the player(s) may be. And that's the kind of thing that I think ought to be mentioned prominently, either in the quest log or (preferably) on the entry window above where you choose a difficulty level.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Turbine introduce a mechanism where you're not *allowed* to enter a quest if your party is below the "minimum" number of people. If you're run through the Pit twenty times and watched every conceivable YouTube video on how to solo Furnace 3, maybe you can do it -- but the minimum number of players for the Pit still needs to be set at 2 rather than 1 so the guy doing the Pit for the first time is given fair warning that he cannot succeed if he tries to solo it, even if he's a 20th level character. And if you're running through the Tomb of the Burning Heart with enough cash to buy Gold Seal hirelings as needed to stand on pressure points, maybe you can solo that one too -- but the minimum number of players for Burning Heart still needs to be set at 4 rather than 1 so the guy doing this quest for the first time knows he cannot succeed without more warm bodies in the party, even if he's a 20th level character. Contrast these two examples with Proof is in the Poison, a quest that's obviously much tougher than its level would suggest but is nevertheless possible to solo if you're sufficiently high-level when you enter.

[Khafar]

Where do you draw the line?At the minimum party requirement. Specify it as a minimum number of player characters and a minimum number of others (which can either be players or hirelings). This is all about telling people that you need one, two, three, or four simply to finish the core objectives, doing things like pulling levers once a party member has passed a gate, standing on buttons simultaneously, etc.


How many do you NEED for the PIT? Since it can be soloed, but there are also valves to turn in Furnace 3 that otherwise are a bit challenging? 2 or 3 or 4?If it can be soloed, then the answer is "1 Player" or "Soloable". If it requires another player, it would be "2 Players". If a player and a hireling (or player), then "1 Player + 1 Other".

Khafar

[Arianrhod]

At the minimum party requirement. Specify it as a minimum number of player characters and a minimum number of others (which can either be players or hirelings). This is all about telling people that you need one, two, three, or four simply to finish the core objectives, doing things like pulling levers once a party member has passed a gate, standing on buttons simultaneously, etc.

If it can be soloed, then the answer is "1 Player" or "Soloable". If it requires another player, it would be "2 Players". If a player and a hireling (or player), then "1 Player + 1 Other".

Khafar

Well, the thing is, the Pit can apparently be soloed, but only by someone with the right combination of Jump skill & twitch skills. It is designed to be done with at least 2 - 1 to turn the valve, another to be shot into the air.

Many quests can be creatively run by fewer players than the quest is clearly designed for; it would be nice, however, to get some kind of warning before entering in the case of those few quests that have specific mechanics to them that are intended to be operated by multiple players (and how many players those mechanics would require, if done "as intended").

Still, there is the possibility that if such a thing were included for quests that have such requirements for completion, people would start asking for it to include similar warnings about optionals (already I see people in the Harbor complaining about not being able to get the strength valve in Durk's...). Then there's the other side, where some folks might object that too much information is being given in advance, and it amounts to "spoilers". Still undecided about whether going down this road would be good for the game or not, even though I'd like to see it, myself.

[Zenako]

Well, the thing is, the Pit can apparently be soloed, but only by someone with the right combination of Jump skill & twitch skills. It is designed to be done with at least 2 - 1 to turn the valve, another to be shot into the air.
.

amazingly I almost was able to do it solo. (IF you ask about my gimped mario skills within guild I have set that bar pretty darn low....:eek::D). When I made it to the top of Coal without falling there was great rejoicing in the land...:) But the point is, all I really needed to add was a Jump Potion to make a couple of the jumps. And to figure out where to go, and those demo videos showed the "tricks" or alternate routes to the top. I did break down and spring for a minimum gold hireling (8 TP) since I was getting tired of just missing the timing on the tough jump. Once the hireling flipped the switch, I was able to hit the jump pretty easily. With a bit more timing and practice I know I could have done it on my own.

But that goes back to the uncertainty of trying to list minimum requirements. Having two switches to flip is no more of an obstacle than having to hit an 18 INT run for example. A sufficently dumb character cannot solo VON3, but it has nothing to do with the number of characters in the party. So would you need to also put a RUNE warning on the quests. In many quests, the odds of most players surviving lets say an elite trap is next to nil unless they have specific builds. Do we also need to put party composition needs up too?

Slippery slope. LFM for help solves 99% of the problem. Before Hirelings, I often saw LFM's for Delara's two, in fact posted a few myself (when no guildies were on). I would leave all chests unopened if I knew I would be needing help. LFM would post - Free chests, completion optional, just need a switch puller.

[jsaving]

I think there's a sensible middle ground to be found here.

If a group is too small to complete the main quest, then the consequences are significant: they cannot earn favor and will not receive the end-of-quest reward. Faced with that prospect, most such groups would prefer not to enter in the first place, and they should be given a warning to that effect rather than discovering after an hour or two of gameplay that Turbine deliberately designed the adventure to be inaccessible for a group of their size.

On the other hand, if the group simply lacks the appropriate stats or spells to complete an optional objective, they can still earn favor as well as the requisite end-of-quest reward. Faced with that prospect, most such groups would prefer to enter even knowing they'll miss out on a bit of experience and perhaps a chest or two.

So I'm not sure it's necessary to warn groups that they'll lose out on a 500XP optional objective if they can't activate a strength rune, for example. But we can and should warn 1-man and 2-man groups that certain quests simply aren't designed to be beatable by them, especially at a time when Turbine is trying as hard as it can to make DDO more solo- and small-group friendly.

[HeavenlyCloud]

:confused:
Recommended Group 4 or more players. ;) Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/ScreenShot00727.jpg

[Arianrhod]

:confused:
Recommended Group 4 or more players. ;) Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/ScreenShot00727.jpg

But when ALL the quests say that, it's not really useful information, as some are designed to be uncompletable without a certain number of bodies, and most aren't.

[shores11]

When entering a quest, it would be very helpful to know up-front the minimum number of party members needed to complete it. By this I don't mean a subjective gauge of how "tough" a quest will be, but rather, whether the designers of the quest chose to include elements like simultaneously flipped levers that can't be done without a certain number of party members. A fair number of new DDO entrants have complained about not being told in advance that a quest they've spent an hour plowing through actually can't be done with the current party size, and I don't see why a game that's supposedly trying to become more small/solo-friendly can't add this information to the screen you see when entering a quest.

Granted, quests that "need" a certain number of party members can sometimes be done with less if you get lucky with web spells (I'm thinking of the burning heart tomb here) or have the proper speed/jump boosts (say, the Pit). So in this case a "minimum" party size wouldn't necessarily reflect what an experienced DDO gamer can accomplish -- but then again, that kind of gamer isn't going to be reading the quest entry window anyway.

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly. I agree they are trying to add more solo dungeons to the game but if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'able. Some quests yes without the solo tag are solo'able but it is not intended to be.

I can only see the next request "please add to the entry page what classes we need to have in the quest", maybe a rogue if their are traps, or a ranger if there are enemies on a high ledge or a caster if ther is an area where spell casting is preferred.

Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.

[HeavenlyCloud]

But when ALL the quests say that, it's not really useful information

So you only want certain quests to have that?


as some are designed to be uncompletable without a certain number of bodies, and most aren't.

Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)

Maybe what you are looking for is Xorian Cypher "Recommended Group: Well you definitely need 2 people and be able to cast 1 pet each one to keep advancing but sorry for the spoiler. Firewall works great so if you can get someone with it do it. Get people with 22 intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Oh i forgot bring a rogue cause there is at least 6 traps.

Also i apologize if this sounds well aggressive or taunting, but the information is there just because the reaver says 12 players suggested and i solo it doesn't mean all the information needs to be discarded right away.

[Borror0]

Well, the thing is, the Pit can apparently be soloed, but only by someone with the right combination of Jump skill & twitch skills. It is designed to be done with at least 2 - 1 to turn the valve, another to be shot into the air.
Obviously, such estimates should also assume average players/characters.

If the obstacle can be overcome by a specific kind of build by using an unintended part of the quest's design or by two players, the line should be traced at two because it's unreasonable to assume that most soloers will be built to solo it.

Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)
But, Blah, there is a difference between recommended group size and minimum group size. Obviously, many of those quests can be attempted under the number of players listed. As a result, someone will completely disregard that information when it comes to determining whether he should attempt that quest or not.

[Khafar]

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly. Of course it is. If it weren't, they wouldn't have added Solo options to dungeons, then moved to auto-scaling for all dungeons, added Hirelings, gold contract Hirelings, etc. I'll bet that's not the last of it either -- they're expanding outside the group-required niche they were in since launch in order to attract and retain more players, and those new players will be asking for more of this treatment. It's inevitable.


if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'ableIf (as a lot of the vets here are stating) 90% of the game's quests are actually soloable now, then it seems to be a good idea to spell it out for people on the 10% which aren't. By default, the reasonable assumption will be that it is. Besides, Turbine said that "Solo" designation was essentially getting obsoleted for new content - they're relying on auto-scaling to provide that, and we may not see any new dungeons with a separate "Solo" option.


Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.Depends. I didn't mind finding out that I needed 3 other players or hirelings for "The Burning Heart", because it came early in the adventure and I'd only wasted maybe 5 minutes before getting to the pressure plates that required coordinated action. No biggie - I made the adjustment and ran it fine 10 minutes later. However, if I'd discovered that only at the very end of a 2-hour adventure, it would have been majorly annoying, not "enjoyable". I usually don't have 2 hours all in one block to play, so this discovery could easily mean I have to wait an entire week or more before I could even try it again.

A simple line on the quest description (or even just in the Compendium) would give me the information I need to have a shot at success.

Khafar

[HeavenlyCloud]

But, Blah, there is a difference between recommended group size and minimum group size. Obviously, many of those quests can be attempted under the number of players listed. As a result, someone will completely disregard that information when it comes to determining whether he should attempt that quest or not.

Fair enough, you are right i didn't really consider the wording.

I just think that if something is recommended for 4-12 players i won't go with anything lower than what is said unless i got previous knowledge of the quest, in a static group of 1-3 players or i want to explore something to learn it, especially when it is written in all the quests giving you a more or less idea of what you need.

[Arianrhod]

So you only want certain quests to have that?



Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)

Maybe what you are looking for is Xorian Cypher "Recommended Group: Well you definitely need 2 people and be able to cast 1 pet each one to keep advancing but sorry for the spoiler. Firewall works great so if you can get someone with it do it. Get people with 22 intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Oh i forgot bring a rogue cause there is at least 6 traps.

Also i apologize if this sounds well aggressive or taunting, but the information is there just because the reaver says 12 players suggested and i solo it doesn't mean all the information needs to be discarded right away.

The "information" is nearly identical for every quest. All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete. "Information" that doesn't distinguish between what some people might be comfortable with and what most people will need isn't really information. It's just static.

[HeavenlyCloud]

The "information" is nearly identical for every quest. All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete. "Information" that doesn't distinguish between what some people might be comfortable with and what most people will need isn't really information. It's just static.

Hard to not be identical when parties only allow 1-6 party members. I guess what i'm just arguing is that people just ignores the recommended setting for the quest, and then they complain when they are soloing that they need another one with them to complete.

But like Borror0 pointed out Minimum is not the same as recommended so you are right.

Also i guess that's just the type of gamer i am, getting as much information as i can before/while doing something.

[Angelus_dead]

All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete.
Catacombs has a special encounter where you must pull levers while under attack from an unkillable monster. That is the kind of special mechanic that makes multiple players part of the intended approach.

Yes, you certainly could use Sprint Boost or Summon Monster to get past it, but there are also ways an especially prepared player could get through many areas designed for multiple participants.

[Arianrhod]

Another possibility:

Give quests that require multiple things to be done simultaneously a special label (like some of the harder quests got recently - Extreme Challenge). Nothing that gives too much away, just sets them apart from those that don't have these exacting requirements. Maybe something like "Team Coordination quest - 4" for Burning Heart or Xorian Cipher.

[sirgog]

:confused:
Recommended Group 4 or more players. ;) Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/ScreenShot00727.jpg

Sins of Attrition says that too, and the quest is significantly harder with 3+ than it is with 1.

[Angelus_dead]

Sins of Attrition says that too, and the quest is significantly harder with 3+ than it is with 1.
That's a failure of the dungeon scaling design, which is really a separate topic from scripted multi-participant objectives.