Tired of knockdown non play.

[Gratch]

Either fix air elementals to behave like actual D&D air elementals (much like your current air djinnis - where they go in and out of whirlwind mode) or add a knockdown immunity timer directly following the most recent air elemental knockdown.

It is not "playing" a game to watch your character get flung all over a dungeon.

If only there was a way on the forums how one could show why people want a break from the same repetitive annoyance over and over and over.

[Shade]

Eh there cheap.. But there one of the few mobs that cause serious problems for melee in the game, so I think there fine.

Personally since the latest patch I find there way easier to melee then before tho. I can take down the ones in reaver with no charge in about 5 seconds melee.. Having a 60+ strength helps.

The knockdown is perfectly fair imo. It has a save. So get your stats up and save.

The knockback is whats cheap. No save, can't stand near them.. That should grant a short immunity or a save.

[MDS_Geist]

Except that I keep making the save and bring knocked down. Which doesn't make sense. The dice show "success," and then I am flung across the room on my back.

I agree that they're a very overpowered monster in DDO.

[Mobeius]

Except that I keep making the save and bring knocked down. Which doesn't make sense. The dice show "success," and then I am flung across the room on my back.

I agree that they're a very overpowered monster in DDO.

its been broken over three years, and the devs HAVE to know about it. They have never acknowledged it. In fact, they keep ADDING them. I almost think they like having them around to annoy the other players, excuse me, "challenge" the player base even if its illegal.

You can be a level 20 char and go and play with the CR 9 Air Ele's in the desert and they still toss you around like a rag doll and get you on your back all the time.

[Cedwin]

You can be a level 20 char and go and play with the CR 9 Air Ele's in the desert and they still toss you around like a rag doll and get you on your back all the time.

I know when i run up to one to attack it, I'll have about 7 or 8 "saves" pop up almost immediately, and then I'm on the ground being thrown all over the place. It's like it does a save check 10 times per second on the knockdown, it's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

[Shade]

Except that I keep making the save and bring knocked down. Which doesn't make sense. The dice show "success," and then I am flung across the room on my back.

I agree that they're a very overpowered monster in DDO.

Your not making the saves. The save vs knockdown works fine.

It's just there's 2 saves whenever they get near you.. One is a very low reflex save to avoid damage from whirlwind - you made that one. The other is a fairly high strength or dex save (whichever is higher) to stay on your feet - you failed that one.

You always fail it on a 1 tho, which sucks. Abilities scores saves should ignore that rule imo.

[sigtrent]

They do have a save, two saves in fact...

The air elementals have two effects and all they need to do is be next to you to do them.

< See Shades post>

And of course you can always roll a 1 on either roll and go spinning no matter what.

They are a hazard more than a monster. Resist lightning and some ranged damage or area damage or insti kill is how you cope with them. I've soloed them on a wide range of characters, but certainly with an all meele character it is very hard and quite frustrating. Paralyzing weapons are often your best bet as it holds them still so you can beat on them and stops them from throwing you.

[Shade]

its been broken over three years, and the devs HAVE to know about it. They have never acknowledged it. In fact, they keep ADDING them. I almost think they like having them around to annoy the other players, excuse me, "challenge" the player base even if its illegal.


"illegal" .. lol. Thats a funny word for it.

The issue is players are smart, AI is dumb.. Player will always overcome it.

Thus the only way to make it challenging is to allow it to cheat.

Same reason casters have unlimited spellpoints and no standard concentration checks.

They know about, they probably just don't consider it a big issue.

If anything I think they should be made harder. Sine the latest patch they seem to move much slower and almost never cast lightnign bolt.

Speed up there casting, Increase there damage severely (they do like 5 dmg). Increase the save DC on whirlwind...
But add a short immunity after any save is made.
And add a save to the knockback effect.

[Mobeius]

Hmmm well I have gone through my combat logs and I see saves vs knockdown and save save save save, etc.... SOOOOOOOOO I dont know what else to say. I have looked over my combat logs over and over and there is nothing I see that shows a "trip" aka knockdown save vs dex/str... I do see saves vs knock down using my reflex save and saving and then I see a balance check to get up... THATS IT.

Do I think Air Ele's are game breaking, by all means no, but it is dang annoying as all can get. I'd rather they remove them from game. Its not a challenge, just annoying. Even freaking reaver they are just an annoyance.....

I say illegal due to the fact the PnP Air eles the knockdown is a reflex save, and while this is not PnP, its still heavily based off it.

[Therigar]

The knockdown by air elementals is a well known issue for the players and so has to be a well known "player issue" to Turbine. The elementals are relatively easy to handle with the right combination of arcane spells or with a bard/arcane combo. That may not be true on epic levels but is true thru elite.

The issue is that most groups don't have those combos and combat in DDO heavily favors melee charcters. So no alternate methods exist for dealing with the elementals.

On Ghallanda my main has a greater elemental bane bow and even with manyshot it isn't possible to do enough damage (he is ranger multiclass with >30 STR). So long range attacks are not effective. Melee is not effective.

Only way I know of dealing with them is arcane and/or bard spells.

[Mobeius]

The knockdown by air elementals is a well known issue for the players and so has to be a well known "player issue" to Turbine. The elementals are relatively easy to handle with the right combination of arcane spells or with a bard/arcane combo. That may not be true on epic levels but is true thru elite.

The issue is that most groups don't have those combos and combat in DDO heavily favors melee charcters. So no alternate methods exist for dealing with the elementals.

On Ghallanda my main has a greater elemental bane bow and even with manyshot it isn't possible to do enough damage (he is ranger multiclass with >30 STR). So long range attacks are not effective. Melee is not effective.

Only way I know of dealing with them is arcane and/or bard spells.

Two Words

Ritual Sacrifice

(force walled room anyone?)

flushes your tactics down the toilet, not a killer but massively annoying.

Besides CR 9 air elementals should NOT be able to knock around level 20 characters like that. If so when can OUR casters summon some to toss around Harry and Sally for OUR side? Oh wait, that wouldnt be fair now would it. Harry and Sally constantly on their butt while we beat on him... LOL

[MDS_Geist]

Your not making the saves. The save vs knockdown works fine.

It's just there's 2 saves whenever they get near you.. One is a very low reflex save to avoid damage from whirlwind - you made that one. The other is a fairly high strength or dex save (whichever is higher) to stay on your feet - you failed that one.

You always fail it on a 1 tho, which sucks. Abilities scores saves should ignore that rule imo.

It says "success" for the save versus knockdown. With a dex of 40 and rolling a 20 I should stay on my feet. And then I'm across the room with the die still showing my 20 and the word "success." That is why it seems broken.

I'm okay with the failing on a one rule, everyone slips up sometimes.

[Therigar]

Two Words

Ritual Sacrifice

(force walled room anyone?)

flushes your tactics down the toilet, not a killer but massively annoying.

Besides CR 9 air elementals should NOT be able to knock around level 20 characters like that. If so when can OUR casters summon some to toss around Harry and Sally for OUR side? Oh wait, that wouldnt be fair now would it. Harry and Sally constantly on their butt while we beat on him... LOL

I just ran RS yesterday and the one trap area with the air elementals took us about 20 seconds to complete with 2 clerics casting max/empowered blade barriers. One set up at entrance area & when it was up the other ran to end while casting and spawned the elementals.

Clerics can kill the elementals with BB but it isn't as effective as a disco ball and FoD. Disco stops them moving and FoD gets rid of them. Works in RS as well if you set it up before you run down the hall and activate the trap.

Remaining air elementals are relatively easy to deal with.

[Murgatroyd]

The knockdown is a str/dex check DC20. Regardless of whether you make or fail this one, then you have a balance check (not sure exactly of the DC, but it's not high). You need to make both to stay up but they will still push you back regardless.

Every 3 seconds you need to remake these checks.

It is rather annoying since the push back and getting back to the elemental may take more than 3 seconds, so you can usually only land 1-2 swings before you get pushed back again. :(

[Therigar]

The knockdown is a str/dex check DC20.(

I'm not certain that this is correct.

Knockdown is STR based. Balance is DEX based. If you fail knockdown then you stay down until you pass balance.

Air elementals seem to succeed in knockdown regardless of the knockdown roll. It may be that their modifiers are exceptionally high. However, a low STR character with high DEX will be knocked down but gets up easier than a high STR character with low DEX. The high STR character will be knocked down less often (in theory) -- but again this does not appear to apply to air elementals.

Rogues with the acrobat enhancement are supposed to be immune to knockdown. They still are subject to knockback. Knockback also occurs for characters that make the knockdown save -- which is why they are tossed but end up on their feet rather than on their back.

This is how I've always understood the mechanics of this. If knockdown is STR or DEX depending on which is higher then I'd like someone to post where that information is found. I really don't think it is an or situation. I think it is only STR.

[404error]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

[Gratch]

Well... if you maybe took the abbot's death water which had floating air ellies on it, and we had to specifically use their air throws to get us across the room... that would be fun I'm sure.

I'm mostly okay with 95% of the places the devs have air ellies. Who hasn't enervated and charmed a vale air elemental and used it to rhoomba all the mobs around you? Guess you'd have to dominate it now for full map monster leaf-blowin pleasure.

But New Invasion, especially on elite, especially with the named air elemental (and his saves of 80) sometimes becomes more of a movie then a game if he gets you into a room and has his way with you for a minute of not being able to move. He doesn't even kiss you afterward. Then there's the end fight (on elite) that I assume got some dev "Meanest Dev of the Year Award" for those elite additions.

[assamite]

I thought they were fixed being as I'm getting kills in Reaver now. I don't know about taking them out in 6 seconds <.< alone but meh possibility. I usually wear them down to like 10% and then they get scorched.

[Murgatroyd]

Knockdown is STR based. Balance is DEX based. If you fail knockdown then you stay down until you pass balance.

I have a high DEX ranger and I get +14 (38 dex) to my roll vs knockdown. She doesn't fall often, but if it was based off of my STR I'd only be getting +9 (28 str) and be on the ground quite often. :D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

Bad 404...bad 404.

Air eles and rusty stuns on WF are the two most annoying and stupid attack mechanics in the game. It's even worse than grazing hits :p

[Samadhi]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

.... <not funny>

[Therigar]

I have a high DEX ranger and I get +14 (38 dex) to my roll vs knockdown. She doesn't fall often, but if it was based off of my STR I'd only be getting +9 (28 str) and be on the ground quite often. :D

Not that I don't believe you, just not how I remember this effect working.


Edit: Ignore this next part.


Because people have different ideas (is it STR or DEX) do you think we could get different people with different attributes (someone w high STR and someone w high DEX) to post screenshots of combat logs?

Or, can someone point to the DDO wiki or whatever that addresses this?

Edit: Here is why:

"Balance allows a character to get up after he's been knocked down in combat. Since preventing the knockdown requires either high Strength, high Dexterity, or the divine spell Freedom of Movement, investing in this skill can help you to stand back up sooner after some creature does knock you down." This is in the DDO wiki found after searching "knockdown".

Now, this brings up an interesting question. What happens if I have Freedom of Movement and am hit by an air elemental?

[Tyndaleon]

Now, this brings up an interesting question. What happens if I have Freedom of Movement and am hit by an air elemental?

No difference that I can tell. My duo friend plays a cleric and keeps it up as one of her buffs on us, we've been running around in Sands recently, and we still get knocked down/blown around like rag dolls regardless.

And as much as I enjoy sarcasm and am all for forum humor 99% of the time (because I love to laugh above all else), this is one time I wish 404 would be serious and actually once and for all address the issue and state whether or not the devs consider AE's 'working as intended' or not and give a sound, logical explanation as to why if they are. Even if I don't like the answer, I'd at least have alot of respect that an issue most players downright loathe that's apparently existed for at least 3+ years (judging by several posts by vets) was finally spoken to directly.

[oberon131313]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

that's just evil, I love it.

+1

[shores11]

Either fix air elementals to behave like actual D&D air elementals (much like your current air djinnis - where they go in and out of whirlwind mode) or add a knockdown immunity timer directly following the most recent air elemental knockdown.

It is not "playing" a game to watch your character get flung all over a dungeon.

If only there was a way on the forums how one could show why people want a break from the same repetitive annoyance over and over and over.


Air elementals are not broke and good diversified party can handle air elementals. Get your cleric or caster to take them out or make your saves against the knock down I have a character (melee) that gets knockdowned only about 50% of the time.

Or my caster just PK's them.

[Jay203]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

i promise you if such thing should happen i WILL unsub! (so will about 90% of the playerbase)
and that's not something i'd usually say! :eek::eek::eek:

[Solmage]

I have a high DEX ranger and I get +14 (38 dex) to my roll vs knockdown. She doesn't fall often, but if it was based off of my STR I'd only be getting +9 (28 str) and be on the ground quite often. :D

Please leave the ellies the way they are, they provide a different kind of challenge, one that for a change isn't best solved with mindless swinging of a sword.

Having a good (or great) strength and a great balance work well. So does using a bow. So does using spells. If you don't happen to have any of those, then well, geee, too bad, bring someone in your group who does.

[CrimsonEagle]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

LOL, you evil, evil, evil .......

[Thanimal]

Air eles and rusty stuns on WF are the two most annoying and stupid attack mechanics in the game.

What!? I completely disagree with that. Rust Monsters are awesome! They are the one thing that makes me consider running fleshies. WF have tons of advantages in this game, and can practically laugh off Beholders and some other stuff that kicks fleshie ass. Rust Monsters are there to balance that off.

Every time I run into a Rustie on Vandt or Victorrea (my only fleshies that I really play) I have this breif thrill where I realize I'm going to kick its ass! If Rust Monsters didn't completely hose WF that thrill could never happen.

[smatt]

Just to be arguementive.....

I love air ellies.... I love when I dash around a corner during a New Invasion zerg onmy cleric, and run right into a pair at a hole location and they toss me around repeatedly through the blade barrier the trogs cast, while the orthons beat me to a pulp, and a fire ellie spams me with fireballs, as I'm mashing my hotkey for Heal, and trying to get a BB up.

I don't really care about air ellies.... So what a difficult to deal with mob.... :cool:



Dooooommmmm! :p

[Bloodhaven]

/signed

[bobbryan2]

Air elementals are not broke and good diversified party can handle air elementals. Get your cleric or caster to take them out or make your saves against the knock down I have a character (melee) that gets knockdowned only about 50% of the time.

Or my caster just PK's them.

Impressive. I'd love to see your caster just PK those elementals in shavarath and the reaver's refuge.

All the experiences you seem to be talking about are low level.

[Riggs]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

Evil.

On the plus side however - I believe this is the very first post by anyone at Turbine in any of the 5000 air elemental threads over the last couple years - so yay, things are looking up.

Air elementals = griefing in most players eyes. Think of the love-fest that would occur if all air ellies were either just changed to the djinn mechanic (minus the 'Im invulnerable to damage in whirlwind form thing'), or just replaced with some other monster.

[Slorgs]

If you remember Asheron's Call, you don't have to make every mob in the game an Air elemental, that's just silly. Half of them should be made into Ash Gromnies.

:)

Edit: And throw some Zefir's in there for good measure!

[Chaosprism]

To fix air elementals, you just need to have a variation on the whirlwind thats not as dramatic as it is now.

1) The air elemental should first make you make a pretty easy save or be flown back and knocked down (for only a short time) - (like it does now but much easier reflex save)

2) Then you should make a save or be pushed back (like the swing of a giant does) (more difficult save - but maybe fort save)

3) Attacking the air elemental inside it's vortex should give big negatives to hit with all that wind buffeting your swinging arm. (-6 to hit maybe no save)

The size of the elemental would change these saves, negatives to hit (and duration of knockdown if it happens)


Also both these saves should actually be made easier the HEAVIER you are. So a strong weighed down tank should actually be much harder to fling away.

Theres the balance right there if you want to code it.


People could then use the strategy of encumbering with weight their tank so they wont get flung away as easily.

[Zuldar]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

Absolutely, I recommend rust monsters instead.

[Timjc86]

Air elementals definitely need to be fixed. The whirlwind effect is fine, but it shouldn't be on constantly. That's extremely cheap and very annoying.



If you remember Asheron's Call, you don't have to make every mob in the game an Air elemental, that's just silly. Half of them should be made into Ash Gromnies.

Those are one of the few creatures that were consistently able to maim or even kill my higher level characters well beyond the point that they should have no longer been a challenge.

One very particular instance still sticks out in my mind: my friend and I are running around in some mountains and I spot a gromnie (I think this one was an azure or an ivory) probably 5-10 levels lower than both of us. I prophetically announce "Watch this, this will be easy!" as I charge towards the gromnie. One breath attack and a few bites later (most every one followed by that scream indicating your character just got hit REALLY hard) and I'm at the Lifestone while my buddy's almost rolling on the floor in his fit of laughter.

A decade later and my friend still reminds me of that gromnie whenever I pronounce that anything "will be easy".

[Ranmaru2]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

While I appreciate the humor 404, the fact that for 3 years the developers have done **** about air elementals eliminates all comedic effect from your intent.

Is there a change coming to these mobs or is one lined up for the future?

@Shade - You realize that if we save against the Whirlwind we're not supposed to get:

1) Tossed
AND
2) Knocked down or even have to make this saving throw

I've had a barb get to 38 strength out in the desert area and was still getting tossed around all day by a regular air elemental.

[Robshell]

I thought people love air elementals? So updates 3 plan of changing every monster in game into a air elemental should be really revised?

....=P

No exploding bat love? Pfft.

[Mithran]

This is the issue writers get into. . . It's hard to balance absolutes and it's simpler to press the "Easy" button. How many times in Heroes could we see Sylar and Peter square off where both were fully powered? The characters in The Lord of the Rings adventuring with Gandalf can't always go to him for the answers/solutions.

So. . .

Peter Petrelli loses his powers
Gandalf dies or is preoccupied
Red/Purple names give you "Immune" messages or you get "You cannot do that while you are helpless" messages from fighting mobs. It's not restricted to DDO, though. It's what happens to balance play/stories.

[smatt]

Hmm, it's Friday.... Time for yet another edition of "Smatt loves air ellies" :D

I think Air ellies hsould be like oozes... When you hit them with a slashing weapons they split.... :eek: :p

OR

Perhaps all insta-kill spells cast ont hem should be richotched to a random friendly :)


I kid, I kid.... :D