My challenge... Dwarf (yep, you read right)

[Dylvish]

Heya guys and gals. I've always been a rather huge fan of the DDO Dwarves, but my nephew takes it to an unhealthy level. He was meleeing some oozes the other day with his dorf fighter and it struck him with the idea to make a monk. I threw ideas and explained things to him, so he is very well aware it wont be a 1/2ling monk, but he is adamant he is going to make one.
I worked up the following, partially with the proposed changes coming in the next patch in mind. Could you please give me some critique on it? I know much on the monk basics, but I have not had an endgame one yet, so would love to hear your feedback.




Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

dorfmonkey
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Monk)
Hit Points: 369
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 16
Will: 17

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22 22
Dexterity 15 18 18
Constitution 14 18 20
Intelligence 8 10 10
Wisdom 14 17 20
Charisma 6 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 8
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 30
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 6 41
Diplomacy -2 14
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1
Heal 2 5
Hide 2 4
Intimidate -2 -1
Jump 4 9
Listen 2 5
Move Silently 2 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 2
Spot 2 5
Swim 3 6
Tumble 5 10
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Disciple of Candles
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind
Enhancement: Fists of Light


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Fist
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose II
Enhancement: Restoring the Balance
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Adept of Flame


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose III


Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Soul
Enhancement: Master of Thunder


Level 14 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Quivering Palm


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Adamantine
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 17 (Monk)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Adept of Rain


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Master of Stone


Level 19 (Monk)
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: CON
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Unbalancing Strike
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains








I threw in a couple of levels of Dwarven Tactics to help with specials landing. I also picked up Dwarven spell defense +2. I figured (hopefully correctly) between that and their inherent resistances on top of their monk bonuses and +16 will/ref/fort saves, He should be pretty hard to nail down. Not positive, but 327 HPs naked didnt seem half bad. I know Earth stance DR isnt very hot right now, but I'm guessing it could have its uses here, and I mainly took it for the force damage (I'm lead to believe it is almost never resisted). Having 3 grand master stances to play with should give some versatility.


Anyway, let me know what you think. I would like to have it hammered out and tweaked where needed before throwing it his way, as I know him. He will hit the ground running with it, so I'd like a good roadmap starting off.


P.S.: He has not unlocked 32 pts yet, and (ive tried), he is not interested in anything here but a dwarf. He has a 14 cleric that is his main, this is his 'toy' he wants to experiment with (i did something similar recently with a drow).


Thanks in advance
~Dylvish

[Lehrman]

Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Power Critical
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Power critical is mediocre, you are better off farming a bloodstone if you need the confirmation bonus.
Weapon focus should be unnecessary at higher levels.
Cleave is also mediocre when using weapons with poor reach.

You should definitely look into picking up stunning blow and you can always stack multiple toughness feats for more hps.

[Feynt]

You could pick up Mobility and Spring Attack over Weapon Focus and Power Criticals. This grants you full kung fu awesomeness as you blitz non-stop around the battle field Chuck Norris style. You'll definitely have enough Tumble to make use of it.

[Dylvish]

Wow, great ideas already! Since there is cut-n-pasting involved in re posting the updated build, I'll do it later, but I like both ideas so far. Shame I cant fit both in... I'll have to look at both and play a bit.

Think this guy will perform ok so far?

EDIT: changes made. got mobility, spring attack, and stunning blow. =)

[Feynt]

Well, personal preference, I think your Wis and Dex are a tad low for the end game. Then again I think I'll bow to the experience of others on that respect. Offensively you should be doing well for yourself. I'd work on getting the Earth stances as soon as possible. I'm not sure but I don't think your enhancements count towards your Con for stat requirements for Grandmaster of Mountains. Again, that's a personal preference, but since you're playing a dwarf the high Con makes for a good focal point.

[Dylvish]

Well, personal preference, I think your Wis and Dex are a tad low for the end game. Then again I think I'll bow to the experience of others on that respect. Offensively you should be doing well for yourself. I'd work on getting the Earth stances as soon as possible. I'm not sure but I don't think your enhancements count towards your Con for stat requirements for Grandmaster of Mountains. Again, that's a personal preference, but since you're playing a dwarf the high Con makes for a good focal point.

I had played around with the idea, but between Str and Con, I just felt Str won out in offering me more. There was not a lot I could do with Wis and Dex (he is a dwarf after all), without sacrificing more Str and Con than I was willing to lose just for the extra point or two. Not sure if enhancements open it up either, but it would kind of make sense to me for it to (can anyone confirm?)
As for stance, From what I gather, GMoM stance damage reduction simply is not enough to justify (in its current incarnation at least), I have it primarily for the attack, although I'm sure there may be places it can come in handy. I have Wind and Fire as his primarily used stances (chose out of the 4 to leave out water, as being a dwarf he will already be very strong on saves), and of course, for the damage attacks. With Dwarven tactics thrown in, he should be one hard little runt to resist.

Since he will never have the AC of a halfling, he will be relying on (hopefully) higher saves from racials, etc., and more hps if not massively more.

[Arvess]

I am not a huge fan of mobility or spring attack. This has been debated on before and the arguement against these two seemed better to me. Basically, a monk's strength is his number of attacks. When you move and attack you drastically reduce the number of attacks you make. So you really want to be standing still and attacking. If you are chasing mobs constantly and swinging, you need to reassess your play style. You need to wait until mobs are done running and are switching to attacking /casting to close distance and attack.

As for mobility, you need to be tumbling to get a bonus. You can't tumble AND attack. if you are not attacking, you are not addressing the threat to you or your party. That leaves them free to attack again and again. If you need that AC bonus, you need more help than tumbling about.

These feats aren't bad feats but there are others that would be better.

[Feynt]

Well, fair enough. I like Tumbling because it looks like it should be a defensive option, but it never seems to actually evade an enemy's attack. Mobility does seem to help a lot in that respect (at lower levels admittedly). As for the running and attacking thing, it's more for the enemies that are chasing the squishies that won't stop running so you can catch up and help, however there are times that warrant feeding a few knuckle sandwiches to the enemies on the go. You know how it is, busy busy busy, no one can stop to eat three squares a day. >)

[Dylvish]

I am not a huge fan of mobility or spring attack. This has been debated on before and the arguement against these two seemed better to me. Basically, a monk's strength is his number of attacks. When you move and attack you drastically reduce the number of attacks you make. So you really want to be standing still and attacking. If you are chasing mobs constantly and swinging, you need to reassess your play style. You need to wait until mobs are done running and are switching to attacking /casting to close distance and attack.

As for mobility, you need to be tumbling to get a bonus. You can't tumble AND attack. if you are not attacking, you are not addressing the threat to you or your party. That leaves them free to attack again and again. If you need that AC bonus, you need more help than tumbling about.

These feats aren't bad feats but there are others that would be better.

Strong points. Can you recommend 2 feats that you think would be better spent in the place of mobility / leap attack? I'm open for suggestions. =)

[Arvess]

I had played around with the idea, but between Str and Con, I just felt Str won out in offering me more. There was not a lot I could do with Wis and Dex (he is a dwarf after all), without sacrificing more Str and Con than I was willing to lose just for the extra point or two. Not sure if enhancements open it up either, but it would kind of make sense to me for it to (can anyone confirm?)
As for stance, From what I gather, GMoM stance damage reduction simply is not enough to justify (in its current incarnation at least), I have it primarily for the attack, although I'm sure there may be places it can come in handy. I have Wind and Fire as his primarily used stances (chose out of the 4 to leave out water, as being a dwarf he will already be very strong on saves), and of course, for the damage attacks. With Dwarven tactics thrown in, he should be one hard little runt to resist.

Since he will never have the AC of a halfling, he will be relying on (hopefully) higher saves from racials, etc., and more hps if not massively more.

looks balanced and plays to the strengths of the race. I don't think Dwarf SR stacks.

you got too much tumble and i hope I'm reading it wrong but diplomacy? You should have some jump because that's what monks do. Make bad ass jumps that leave clerics behind. All you need is 1 in tumble. and 0 in diplomace because you shouldn't ever use it.

Jump and spot. and if you want to sneak around...some move silently OR hide.

[Arvess]

Strong points. Can you recommend 2 feats that you think would be better spent in the place of mobility / leap attack? I'm open for suggestions. =)
gotta think on this since i'm used to DM'd halflings with feat envy...

at least 1 toughness....can't go wrong with more HP...especially when you gotta dig for something better.

and stunning fist since its missing.

[Dylos_Moon]

Dwarven Tactics effects Stunning Fist, so you may want to consider taking that, as well as possibly increasing your Wisdom.

10 + Half Monk Level + Wis Mod + 3 Tactics is nothing to laugh at, especially with the cooldown of stunning fist being lower then stunning blow. At level 20 with even your 18 wisdom and a +6 item, that would give you a DC 30 Fort save or stun, switch into Greater Water Stance (which you don't have, but could take with a +2 wis tome) for another +3 wisdom (+4 counting the additional bonus from the previously mentioned tome) and you'd have a DC 32 on your stun, that's with 28 wisdom, if you had 16 base wisdom and level ups in wisdom at each level instead you could have 36 in Ultimate Water Stance, which would give you DC 36 Stunning Fist (and wait until they fix weighted handwraps to work on stunning fist... I'd love to see anything on normal save verses a DC 46 fort)

[Dylvish]

How odd that I didnt have stunning fist in there. Ok, so now its Stunning fist at 6 and another Toughness at i believe 18 (bringing me up to 321 base health).

I guess I could switch out earth or fire grandmaster for water, but do you think I should? Yes I would gain +4 wisdom in that stance, and save bonus (which I believe I'm probably ok in being a dwarf), but it would also downrank the earth attacks (or fire).

As for the Wisdom, I'm aware its a little short, but figured the extra strength would balance things out a bit as well (Id be looking at +6 with basic gear on everything with it for every hit). Was hoping the dwarf Tactics ( I have rank 2 i believe) would help make up for it a bit on DC's.

taking a second look at things... having a +2 on all rolls vs enchantments, and spells, will come in very handy.



Ok anyway, now with the current updates, does he look about as tweaked as he is going to get? Think he will be effective? That kid is bugging the hell out of me for the finished template =P

[Arvess]

A build is only 50% of the end result.

Keep Earth Grandmaster for damage. Enhancements are respeccable so don't worry. I blew my enhancements yesterday and I have to fix them. :P

A monk can do a lot of things but if you try to be good at them all, you'll end up weak. Decide if you want brute force DPS OR special attacks. Looks like DPS. So you'll probably want wind 90% of the time. I have WIS 28 on my 19 monk and I hit unbalancing strike less that 10% of the time in the Devils Battleground. Anywhere else, its money.

Also if you get improved cursespewing handwraps, its like +4 to your DC once that black ball appears.

Most of the stuff looks good though. Figure out a fighting strategy too. In Amrath, I use +5 weakening HW's with halfling guile to get crits once the STR is gone. Not super quick kills but it defangs the badguy and then I start crit-ing for sneak + force + crti damage. For extra DPS I'm hitting the earth and lighting strikes button.

Before that I used paralyzing HW's for crowd control and sometimes the cursespewing HW's to play around with Quivering palm and other stuff. There's a lot of flexibility as to how to play the monk. Yeah so as you figure out how you want to fight, you can tailor some of your details to fit.

[Dylvish]

Ok so going with that frame of thought, if he goes with a 32 point version, do you think he should put the extra points into Wisdom, or Con (or a point in wis and 2 in con)?