Advice needed on when to take rogue levels in a build

[MagsonDare]

I have an idea of an Elven Warchanter Bard, but with a few rogue levels splashed in in order to allow disabling traps and opening locks also. Beyond this, in order to gain some additional bow abilities and "free" TWF, I want to splash 2 levels of ranger in, and take Arcane Archer in order to be able to do some ranged support also, if necessary.

Overall, I'm thinking that Ranger 2 / Rogue 4 / Bard 14 would be very nice -- getting TWF, Bow Strength and Rapid Shot from the ranger, Evasion from the Rogue, and still have up to 5th level spells from the bard, as well as the +2 version of my Inspire Courage song.

I took 1st level as rogue for the "bonus" skill points. I plan on taking levels 2 and 3 as the ranger, then beginning the bard at 4th.

My question is -- where should I take the rogue levels in order to best be able to maintain the "max" skills for Disable Device and Open Locks along the way?

I don't think my stats matter for this question, but in case y'all want to know them:

STR 14
DEX 16 (will use +1 tome at level 3 so thatthe 17 requirement for TWF feats later on is met)
CON 12
INT 14 (skill intensive build, so I put more here that I might "truly" need)
WIS 8 (dump stat)
CHA 12 (plan to use a +1 tome at 3 and put 2 enhancements here to get the 15 needed for 5th level spells)

For the Warchanter, I took Power Attack at level 1. At level 3, ranger grants TWF and I would like to take Oversized TWF to enable dual-wielding scimitars then. At level 6 I plan to take Weapon Focus: Slashing, and then I'll have my Warchanter pre-reqs met, other than Bard level. Level 9 feat will be Improved TWF since I will have the BAB pre-req for it by then.

I can take these feats regardless of what class I'm leveling up -- I'm really more looking to know when I need to take my 2nd rogue level in order to maximize the disabling and opening skills. I'm kinda leaning toward taking my 8th level as the 2nd rogue one, but I'm not sure if I should do it earlier or hold off or what.

Further feat suggestions would be nice also. Any advice appreciated!

[MissErres]

I have an idea of an Elven Warchanter Bard, but with a few rogue levels splashed in in order to allow disabling traps and opening locks also. Beyond this, in order to gain some additional bow abilities and "free" TWF, I want to splash 2 levels of ranger in, and take Arcane Archer in order to be able to do some ranged support also, if necessary.

Overall, I'm thinking that Ranger 2 / Rogue 4 / Bard 14 would be very nice -- getting TWF, Bow Strength and Rapid Shot from the ranger, Evasion from the Rogue, and still have up to 5th level spells from the bard, as well as the +2 version of my Inspire Courage song.

I took 1st level as rogue for the "bonus" skill points. I plan on taking levels 2 and 3 as the ranger, then beginning the bard at 4th.

My question is -- where should I take the rogue levels in order to best be able to maintain the "max" skills for Disable Device and Open Locks along the way?

I don't think my stats matter for this question, but in case y'all want to know them:

STR 14
DEX 16 (will use +1 tome at level 3 so thatthe 17 requirement for TWF feats later on is met)
CON 12
INT 14 (skill intensive build, so I put more here that I might "truly" need)
WIS 8 (dump stat)
CHA 12 (plan to use a +1 tome at 3 and put 2 enhancements here to get the 15 needed for 5th level spells)

For the Warchanter, I took Power Attack at level 1. At level 3, ranger grants TWF and I would like to take Oversized TWF to enable dual-wielding scimitars then. At level 6 I plan to take Weapon Focus: Slashing, and then I'll have my Warchanter pre-reqs met, other than Bard level. Level 9 feat will be Improved TWF since I will have the BAB pre-req for it by then.

I can take these feats regardless of what class I'm leveling up -- I'm really more looking to know when I need to take my 2nd rogue level in order to maximize the disabling and opening skills. I'm kinda leaning toward taking my 8th level as the 2nd rogue one, but I'm not sure if I should do it earlier or hold off or what.

Further feat suggestions would be nice also. Any advice appreciated!

ALWAYS take rogue as your first level if multiclassing it in.

In this case, I would go Rogue, 2 Ranger, Rogue or Rogue, ranger, rogue ranger... and then finish it with bard. IMO you don't need 4 lvls of rogue, only 2. But if you're heart is stuck on 4 levels of rogue, take the last 2 at lvls 11-12ish.

[DragavonBeta]

I would not take less than 15 levels of bard. AC songs are just too good for the group to miss out on.

I would only take 2 levels of rogue to get evasion and maybe scrap the ranger levels altogether. Bow str and rapid shot isnt that good on high levels anyway. You realy need manyshot for bow use to be useful on higher levels. And even then it is only ok (not good) for 20 seconds and **** for 90. If you are short on TWF feats 2 fighter levels will be more effective imo.

You do not need to max out open locks to be effective with rogue skills. You need max disable device and search, and good spot skill is nice to have, but open locks can safely have less than 10 ranks at lvl 20.

Start with rogue at level 1, and take the second rogue level at 8-9 to get the most out of rogue skills.

I think that 16 bard / 2 rogue / 2 fighter and 18 bard / 2 rogue are both better plans than your 14 bard / 4 rogue / 2 ranger.

Oversize TWF is not needed. Divine power clickies will give you BAB 20 and all your other buffs will make you hit often enough even without OTWF.

[testing1234]

for raids the lvl15 +4 AC song would be much more useful then the +3sneak attack enhancement from rog4.
i had a lvl14/2 bard when cap was 16 and ever time i did a raid its
tank"hey i want ac song"
me"sorry dont have im bard14"
and they only ask for it just before a hard fight so its a buff that helps when you need it the most.

[MagsonDare]

Okies, a mere 2 rogue taken somewhere at 8-9 it is ;)

For the lower levels i think I'll still want OTWF, but I can trade it in later.

I'll hit up the bard forums for suggested feats.

Thx for the advice everyone!

[hermespan]

base what levels you take rogue at on your INT and skillpoints per level. If you are developing disable traps and/or UMD, space it out according to what that is.

For example:
Lets say you want to max disable device (which is a good goal) and your intelligence gives you 6 sp per rogue level...
DD is a rogue skill. Other classes take 2 points to add one point of DD.
If you get 6 skillpoints per rogue level, max DD at the beginning and take rogue for first level.
Don't touch DD for 5 levels after level 1 while levelling up your second class, in your case pump UMD.
At 6th level take a level of rogue, put all 6 skillpoints into DD. This way you can spend points from the other class on abilities useful to that class, like maybe UMD or concentration, spending one point each level. That way you don't waste skillpoints and get the max DD you can for a minimum of skillpoints. If you aren't taking rogue past level 2, then you start putting SP in DD every level after the second level of rogue.

Adjust where you take the second level of rogue according to your INT. Try to get a +2 INT tome between the rogue levels to really maximize it. If you don't do this you really aren't getting the most out of the rogue levels in your build. Don't be tempted to jump the gun just to get evasion. It's nice to have earlier, but DD and/or UMD capped at end game is pretty nice too ;)