Share your experiences in partying with battleclerics

[Murricath]

I'm making this thread because I needed a place to vent my frustration of partying with these so-called "battle" clerics.

During my fairly long playing of DDO (2 years, maybe a bit more) I have continuously run into these battlepriests of fail.
I'm sure a lot of people will say that not all of them are bad, and I believe that to be true, but there certainly are massive amounts of bad ones out there.
I currently play a "battle" favored soul, which is a blast, but the difference between me and the clerics are that I can actually buff myself, heal my self and then heal everyone else without having huge sp-issues (unless there's a healing sponge in the party).

I completely understand the attitude that "you should play the game for your own amusement, bla bla bla", but is it really wise to create a character which is a poor group-player?

My issue is mostly that when a battlecleric is in your party they proclaim themselves as awesome and independent from the rest of the party.

This is true to some extent, but what bothers me is the fact that often they start out the dungeon telling the party that "we don't need any buffs or healing from you", then charges into the dungeon and 5 minutes later they will come crawling back, either with a fragment of health, yelling and screaming why there was no support or in ghostform screaming about how "we should move on to pick up his/her soulstone".

I have seen this happening in levels up until 15, and I can't for the life of me figure out what is going on in the heads of these individuals??

Out of all the battleclerics I have encountered EVER, maybe 5% of them has actually been true to the statement that they could take care of themselves, while the rest are self-proclaimed champions of nothing who starts crying when they no longer can support themselves.

I'm just wondering if i'm being too negative towards them, or if there really is a reason for my worries.


Regards

Murricath.

[Enochroot]

Yes!!! Another flamewar!


Yeah, they're generally a waste of space, unless in the hands of a good player/party, in which case, almost anything would be fine to play.

[sirgog]

With a few exceptions, the battleclerics I have run with have all offered far more to the party than the bulk of melee toons.

Melee toons such as fighters seldom throw any buffs on anyone, never seem to fill in for a healer Cleric that gets killed/tripped/stunned/whatever, and seldom even bother raising the dead or topping people off between battles.

Battleclerics do all of that (except the odd terrible one, I think I've grouped with three or four of them - certainly less than the number of terrible rangers I've encountered, a class a significant minority continue to play poorly), and dish out respectable melee DPS at the same time.


And best of all - if you can't find a healer in your level range - the battlecleric can fill in at least reasonably well.


The only times I've noticed troubles have been when incompetent group leaders have had a Clr10/Mnk2/Ftr1 join and thought 'ooh, we have a cleric now, let's do Elite' when the cleric in question is a deeply multiclassed build unsuited to being the sole healer of an Elite run, and the battlecleric has, through inexperience, let themself fall into that trap.

[Enochroot]

Battleclerics do all of that (except the odd terrible one, I think I've grouped with three or four of them - certainly less than the number of terrible rangers I've encountered, a class a significant minority continue to play poorly), and dish out respectable melee DPS at the same time.



If it's the "odd terrible one" - why do they have such a bad rep?

[Murricath]

If it's the "odd terrible one" - why do they have such a bad rep?

In my personal experience the "odd terrible one" isn't as odd as some might think.
As i stated earlier about 5% of ALL the battleclerics i've partied with has had a hero-complex and been unable to keep himself, the party or anyone else alive, often only buffing himself and rushing off.

I have NO problems with good battleclerics who can actually back up what they say and take care of themselves, but I do have a problem with the massive amount of them who seems to fail in their own role as "independent hero-man of divine vengeance" or something like that...

[Jefro]

Level 20 suppose to at least have a way to res someone and carry certain pots, imo

Only get peeved when a class capable of healing/res party does not back off and do so when things start looking grim.


There are occasions where blade barrier is better solution then melee, mostly when melee are very underpowered.

[Arianrhod]

If it's the "odd terrible one" - why do they have such a bad rep?

Because groups don't realize they're running with "battleclerics" if everything goes well. No one notices when someone does everything right and all goes smoothly. It's the disasters that stand out, and the clerics, all too often, who get blamed for them.

[likuei]

Originally Posted by Enochroot
If it's the "odd terrible one" - why do they have such a bad rep?

Because to many people forget that EVERYONE pays to play this game the way they want to. If you need a cleric attached to your hip, then make sure you put that in yout LFM ... Paper Tank NEEDS cleric to join party.

Learn self reliance and you will never need a cleric in your party ...

[Murricath]

Originally Posted by Enochroot
If it's the "odd terrible one" - why do they have such a bad rep?

Because to many people forget that EVERYONE pays to play this game the way they want to. If you need a cleric attached to your hip, then make sure you put that in yout LFM ... Paper Tank NEEDS cleric to join party.

Learn self reliance and you will never need a cleric in your party ...

Then why does the majority of the battleclerics seem to have the attitude "i don't need a party, i don't need healing or buffs" until 5 minutes into the quests where they suddenly switch on the crymachine and start complaining why they're unbuffed or unhealed when they're clearly out of sp?

I have seen this sooooo many times it's not even funny. If you play a character to be a self-reliant pwnagemachine, then you better make sure you can back it up, otherwise don't whine about it when the grapes turn sour.


ANYWAY, this thread is more about sharing some experiences you've had with battleclerics, good or bad, tell some stories, share some awesome moments. I'd really appreciate hearing some positive stories as well.

[sirgog]

In my personal experience the "odd terrible one" isn't as odd as some might think.
As i stated earlier about 5% of ALL the battleclerics i've partied with has had a hero-complex and been unable to keep himself, the party or anyone else alive, often only buffing himself and rushing off.

I have NO problems with good battleclerics who can actually back up what they say and take care of themselves, but I do have a problem with the massive amount of them who seems to fail in their own role as "independent hero-man of divine vengeance" or something like that...

I just don't see them beyond level 7 or 8. I've seen one or two above that range only in two years of play.

The most commonly *terribly* played class IMO is the ranger (archers that aggro everything in sight) and the second most common is the squishy rogue. The main reason battleclerics get a bad rep is because whenever there's a wipe, people often do blame the cleric (even if the cleric was played flawlessly and the aforementioned ranger caused the wipe). That's true of both healbots and offensively minded clerics.

The soloist mentality is common among many newbies, it happens at a higher level for BCs precicely because they are so good at soloing (due to generally being an overpowered build that is self-sufficient) that they are used to stomping everything. You see this 'i used to rule the world now i can't solo' menatility among Fighters and Barbs by level 3, Paladins around 4-5 and battleclerics around 6th level.

[Murricath]

Once more, I must ask that you don't start a flamewar, but share stories and experiences about partying with them. This isn't a discussion about whether they are viable or not, but a sharing or memories, awesome moments and not so awesome moments.

[kalkyrie]

My gf and I are levelling up clerics. gf has a battlecleric, I have a heal/nuke one.
And I have to say I'm very envious of her build.

One thing that stands out in mid-level adventures is that most of the time clerics aren't casting heals.
Two reasons;

We can 'convert' our sp bar into heals very quickly
Most of the time, people aren't taking damage, either due to fighting trash mobs, or good CC.


Thus in 6 man groups, I end up twiddling my thumbs through fights* while the battlecleric is providing free dps.
True my CC is slightly better, but the battlecleric build is only a few DCs behind atm. And my gf has had fighters complain about her 'stealing their kills' with Greater Command. She then had to explain that the monsters weren't actually dead yet...

---
* I exaggerate. I end up sending my cleric into H2H as well. Because, hey, free DPS.

** I also think a lot of complaints on Cannith may come from people new to DDO. On most other MMOs, the relevant resource for 'healers' is Time, since they can regain mana by resting in between fights.
In DDO, the relevant resource is SP, since you can't (and heals cast quick).
Thus the immediate reaction is disbelief that the cleric can melee and still keep the party upright.

As for interesting moments- We've been pretty much duoing up to lvl 11, and it's been easy-going. Only time we had trouble was with the regenerating vampire in the 'Church and the Cult'.
So we swapping spells to Searing Light, and dropped two full mana bars of Direct Damage onto him ^^

[Murricath]

That sounds like an awesome duo. I have had my own theories about making a group consisting of battleclerics, favored souls and just stomping through quests with ease as everyone is self-reliant (more or less).

Keep the stories coming.

[Dragonhyde]

When I was leveling up my Casting evasion cleric, I had the opportunity to run with a "battlecleric" in STK elite. He proclaimed after everyone was in that he only buffs himself and that my cleric was useless being multiclassed with rogue(pre monk). He buffs himself and proceeds to run ahead find mobs and come running back for heals as he needs all his mana for uber self buffs :)....then he proceeds to send me tells griping that it was my fault that he was not doing well because I gave my Divine vitality to the sorc that was actually killing stuff and not dieing in the traps before they were disabled.:rolleyes:

However I have ran with awesome battleclerics, they were able to multitask well between healing/buffs and fighting.

[Maxelcat]

in my guild, our battle clerics:

#1: currently is the highest level character the guild. (we're a young guild of casual players)

#2: has a higher kill count than other similar level scrappy characters and can solo more effectively. (which is part of his build, unfortunately hes currently living in England so with the time difference hes not online with the rest of us often)

both can heal effectively as primary clerics in a group AND actually kill things. both have had fast leveling achievements. its also nice knowing that the cleric can take care of themselves if they pull agro and don't require rescuing.

i don't mind battle clerics if their a good build.

[Murricath]

in my guild, our battle clerics:

#1: currently is the highest level character the guild. (we're a young guild of casual players)

#2: has a higher kill count than other similar level scrappy characters and can solo more effectively. (which is part of his build, unfortunately hes currently living in England so with the time difference hes not online with the rest of us often)

both can heal effectively as primary clerics in a group AND actually kill things. both have had fast leveling achievements. its also nice knowing that the cleric can take care of themselves if they pull agro and don't require rescuing.

i don't mind battle clerics if their a good build.

This is exactly my attitude towards them as well, if they are able to handle themselves, I could care less if they run the quest backwards blindfolded and juggling 4 donkies while singing ABBAs greatest hits.

[Enochroot]

The most commonly *terribly* played class IMO is the ranger (archers that aggro everything in sight) and the second most common is the squishy rogue. The main reason battleclerics get a bad rep is because whenever there's a wipe, people often do blame the cleric (even if the cleric was played flawlessly and the aforementioned ranger caused the wipe). That's true of both healbots and offensively minded clerics.




There's rarely a time when a party can wipe with a well-played cleric, therefore, they often deserve the blame.

[Kalanth]

The only times I've noticed troubles have been when incompetent group leaders have had a Clr10/Mnk2/Ftr1 join and thought 'ooh, we have a cleric now, let's do Elite' when the cleric in question is a deeply multiclassed build unsuited to being the sole healer of an Elite run, and the battlecleric has, through inexperience, let themself fall into that trap.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that a cleric is not in a position to be a main healer with three levels in non-cleric classes, but I can see your point overall. I make it clear when I step into a group with my cleric (Cleric 14 / Paladin 3 at the moment) that I will take up the role most needed. If that means the party is doing well and going along well without many heals then I will hack it up with my greatsword. If the party is struggling with their HP's then I will put away the sword and go full heal bot. My ideal position is in the middle, however. Any group that I can heal while swinging my Ice II Green Steel Greatsword and still heal them with little to no concern makes me one happy Warforged.

That and I admit to a guilty pleasure of hearing the questioning calls when a Warforged Cleric with a Greatsword shows up for the quest. It makes me happy inside. :)

[GeneralDiomedes]

I just don't see them beyond level 7 or 8. I've seen one or two above that range only in two years of play.

That's because they are probably all guild-only. PUGs have far too many of the screaming healmees.

[Stabsy]

Once more, I must ask that you don't start a flamewar, but share stories and experiences about partying with them. This isn't a discussion about whether they are viable or not, but a sharing or memories, awesome moments and not so awesome moments.

Just go re-read your original post. You can't possibly, possibly look at what you wrote and think it's about telling anecdotes rather than flaming.

This is because
1) you didn't tell any anecdotes, you just said they're all terrible and don't heal
2) you spent the entire post berating an entire class of characters because you've played with some idiots
3) inflammatory language.

What I find odd is that you're a battle - favoured soul. The difference between favoured souls and clerics in terms of class design and performance is actually pretty negligible. If you rock and all these battle clerics sucked is that really because you traded some small melee passive bonuses for turn undead? Or gained a slightly larger spell pool at the cost of not being able to pass spell points on to team members? Or is it because you play your character in a more group-focussed way than these solo-artists?

Are you saying you would not, having successfully played a battle-favoured soul be able to roll an effective battle-cleric because you would then be unable to "buff myself, heal my self and then heal everyone else"?

[CrimsonEagle]

Just go re-read your original post. You can't possibly, possibly look at what you wrote and think it's about telling anecdotes rather than flaming.

This is because
1) you didn't tell any anecdotes, you just said they're all terrible and don't heal
2) you spent the entire post berating an entire class of characters because you've played with some idiots
3) inflammatory language.


Pretty much what I saw.

[Murricath]

Maybe read the part where i'm asking for opinions and stories to help change my view of them? Yes I am currently pretty much fed up with "bottleclerics" (baby battleclerics that needs a nanny), but that doesn't mean I don't respect peoples choices.

As stated, people can play whatever class they want, just don't expect others to support you blindly if you don't contribute to the shared experience.

Instead of whining about my OP, how about either posting something constructive or GTFO?

There is nothing wrong with battleclerics, there's is something wrong with "bottleclerics" who claim to be able to support themselves, then come running back with teary eyes because the big bad kobolt hit them in their favorite spot.

This goes for all classes though, but this thread is about battleclerics, so I don't intend on focusing on other classes in the CLERIC forum.

Thank you.

[Feynt]

I played a warforged battle cleric for a time. Then I realized what I wanted to do was more offense and less defense, so I went with paladin. >)

However the few battle clerics I've played with were not so great. They were self sufficient, but to a fault. While the rest of us died, they weren't healing or reviving, citing having the wrong spells prepared or too little SP to make a difference despite having more than half a bar. One was really nice though and took the place of party buff machine. We gladly donated SP pots we came across, and in return we were kept in Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance the whole time. Good stuff and the kind of synergy I like to see in a party.

[Angelus_dead]

There's rarely a time when a party can wipe with a well-played cleric, therefore, they often deserve the blame.
That is completely untrue, unless by "well-played" you mean "infinite use of consumable resources".

And honestly, that is what a lot of players demand of clerics. They get knocked to 15% health and see it healed 20 seconds later, so they decide that it's fine to go ahead taking 255% damage per minute throughout the rest of the quest.

[Enochroot]

That is completely untrue, unless by "well-played" you mean "infinite use of consumable resources".

And honestly, that is what a lot of players demand of clerics. They get knocked to 15% health and see it healed 20 seconds later, so they decide that it's fine to go ahead taking 255% damage per minute throughout the rest of the quest.


It is NOT completely untrue. And you should know I have never, ever recommended or even condoned the use of resources.


Now, if you are only referring to "well-played" as "casting the appropriate spells at the appropriate time" - then sure. But there's a whole lot more to good clericing than just "casting spells". (Generally casting the "right" spells at the "right" time, clearly not referring to healbotting, you won't even need the next hint)


Hint for good clericing: Leadership. The problem in your second sentence wasn't the mana sponge that decided to take 255% damage per minute (whatever that means) - the problem was the cleric that didn't say anything or control the situation with actions.


The few cases where you can't control outcome and especially resource loss? End-game raids, I guess (there are few you can't control outcome - ToD/hound?). Any regular quest (hint: assuming you used previous hint) however should be totally controllable and manageable in almost any pug from 1 through 20.


And I ABHOR consumable use on clerics, for the record. It makes me sick to see people heal-scroll whipping people that aren't even in need of a top-up, especially when they heal scroll my clerics, when I have much sp and am only down a few hp.

[Angelus_dead]

It is NOT completely untrue.
Totally wrong. You apparently are unaware of what you wrote, so here it is again, with emphasis:
"There's rarely a time when a party can wipe with a well-played cleric, therefore, they often deserve the blame."

So you would deny the possibility of a level 4 party in SCE or a level 10 group in Madstone... do you see how false that is?


Hint for good clericing: Leadership. The problem in your second sentence wasn't the mana sponge that decided to take 255% damage per minute (whatever that means) - the problem was the cleric that didn't say anything or control the situation with actions.
You have diluted the term far past the point of being meaningless.

Here's an analogy to demonstrate how wrong you are: "A well-driven automobile can rarely ever skid off a road". That is either completely false, if using a realistic definition of "driven", or completely useless, if you expand "driven" to include all aspects of route selection and weather cancellation.

Or we could say that a good general will rarely lose a war, because he would have avoided going against a tough opponent in the first place. Equally meaningless.

[Enochroot]

Totally wrong. You apparently are unaware of what you wrote, so here it is again, with emphasis:
"There's rarely a time when a party can wipe with a well-played cleric, therefore, they often deserve the blame."

So you would deny the possibility of a level 4 party in SCE or a level 10 group in Madstone... do you see how false that is?

These are BOTH examples of a poorly played cleric - this cleric should never have let such ill-prepared attempts even occur.




You have diluted the term far past the point of being meaningless.

Here's an analogy to demonstrate how wrong you are: "A well-driven automobile can rarely ever skid off a road". That is either completely false, if using a realistic definition of "driven", or completely useless, if you expand "driven" to include all aspects of route selection and weather cancellation.

Or we could say that a good general will rarely lose a war, because he would have avoided going against a tough opponent in the first place. Equally meaningless.


Wait, really? You don't consider safe driving to encompass considering the road conditions and whether or not you should go out in the first place? That's motorcycle 101, at least, when I drive. Of course, I consider myself well-driven.

Second quote - really? You wouldn't avoid a battle that against a tough opponent to fight them another day? You need to learn some battlefield tactics.


Yeah, my point still stands, learn to REALLY cleric.

[BLAKROC]

op that goes both ways, and it all depends on the player.

I got my new comp up and running and logged on to my BC and joined a group doing GH walkups. there was a mellee speced fvs in the group.
that said the fvs had way more sp than i did, he did no party buffs, healed no one else ever and when he died first time was with almost full sp bar? he didnt' even heal himself. I did res him once the other three times he died, ( we did only two quests TBF and the MAZE) it was res shrine time for him. only had one other party member die a sorc and he was out of line of sight so heal didn't go off.
I managed to keep all the rest alive pretty easy, out kill the fvs in both quests and have a good time.

it's operator error when you run into a bad battle cleric just as it was operator error when i encounted a meh fvs.
lighten up it could have been worse, you could have been in a party with all thowin spec haflin fighters trying to take down a red named :D

[Murricath]

op that goes both ways, and it all depends on the player.

I absolutely agree. I have already heard a few good examples of well-played battleclerics, and i actually encountered two, yes TWO well-played battleclerics today. Both were able to take care of themselves, one step down from smashing to heal at times and the other kept everyone in party buffed which was awesome.

This just goes to show how little it actually takes to make the battlecleric feel a part of the party. I'm not asking for them to change their playing-style completely, but adding even just a little to the party's progress without it being "look! I killed the red mob alone!" is a big step in the right direction.

I DID however party with one not-so-well-played battlecleric as well that day, and let's just say he's on my blacklist for what he did.

An eventful day indeed!

[Bloodlance]

Why would you use battleclerics when you can use pure melee dps or pure caster dps instead ?

I personally did my Cleric coz i want to be the backbone of the group and heal people, i can try dps when i am 20 IF i want to.

Cleric(pure) is for healing, imo. It is the healer class so play it as one.

But to be pure healer means you need 2 Battleclerics to fill your shoes, or so i think about it.

[Shade]

Anyone who thinks battleclerics are "good" or "decent" or "ok" melee, either suck horribly at melee or just have never witnessed the true power a real melee class can unleash.

I've played a max str melee cleric up to lvl13...I refuse to call him a battlecleric as I did at least have the basics required for casting.. Lvl1-10, there ok.. Everything has prety weak hitpoints and AC so it's not a big deal if you take 6 seconds to kill something instead of 1.

But once you hit lvl12/13 and start getting into the gianthold or higher content.. The gap widens so immensely that your just really wasting your time. A solid melee build kills at a rate of around 20 times faster then you so its a big waste of time to bother. You can still vorpal stuff sure.. But who cares? Vorpals have always been way too slow for my playstyle.

But I wouldn't call a regular cleric who does the odd vorpal a battlecleric.

Every cleric should have a couple pnts of str to swing the odd weapon here and there, makes allot more sense then standing around doing nothing.. Just those who focus there entire build and playstyke to the point they sacrifice what a cleric is really good at - (spellcasting) on it seem like a waste of a party slot.

[sirgog]

Anyone who thinks battleclerics are "good" or "decent" or "ok" melee, either suck horribly at melee or just have never witnessed the true power a real melee class can unleash.

I've played a max str melee cleric up to lvl13...I refuse to call him a battlecleric as I did at least have the basics required for casting.. Lvl1-10, there ok.. Everything has prety weak hitpoints and AC so it's not a big deal if you take 6 seconds to kill something instead of 1.

But once you hit lvl12/13 and start getting into the gianthold or higher content.. The gap widens so immensely that your just really wasting your time. A solid melee build kills at a rate of around 20 times faster then you so its a big waste of time to bother. You can still vorpal stuff sure.. But who cares? Vorpals have always been way too slow for my playstyle.

But I wouldn't call a regular cleric who does the odd vorpal a battlecleric.

Every cleric should have a couple pnts of str to swing the odd weapon here and there, makes allot more sense then standing around doing nothing.. Just those who focus there entire build and playstyke to the point they sacrifice what a cleric is really good at - (spellcasting) on it seem like a waste of a party slot.

My 20th battlecleric Numot-Khyber (Clr18/Ftr2, 18 Str/16Wis, levelup points in Str) out-DPS'es my level 16-17 melees by a significant margin.

The pure melees will overtake Numot when they hit 20, but they won't be far ahead, and they'll never be able to do the things that Numot can do to save a raid/group that is at risk of wiping. I've had times in PUG shrouds where Numot's been in as a melee role (2 other clerics in party), both Clerics have eaten an early DBF in round 1 (and been 1-shot as weak ungeared players often are), and I've pulled out of melee, solohealed the fight, and prevented a wipe. Because of my build (I have less SP than a Clr20), I need to use an average of one mana potion.

Had I been a Barb, I might have been doing 20% more DPS, but the group would have wiped. Had I been a pure Cleric with no melee ability, they'd probably have looked for an eighth melee instead (Khyber PUGs are obsessed with 2 cleric, 1 arcane, 1 bard, 8 melee Shroud compositions, even though the raid is easier (but slower) with more clerics).

Plus, there's a reason that most of the top soloing achievements in the game have been done by melee builds that can self-heal in large doses.

[Aztek]

Just curious if Battlecleric actually has to mean melee only. In my mind, battlecleric is more about keeping himself alive to fight using offense than being a buff/healbot, which is basically what I'd expect from a pure cleric (my level 17 is pure and has OK str but really is only good for portal beating and lower-level quests in terms of actual melee)

Is there another term for this that is commonly used on the boards/in game?

If not, My guild leader (on Ghallanda) has a 19 multi-class cleric who, I believe, maximizes and quickens blade barriers and he solos a lot of high-end content pretty well from what I've seen. I'm not sure if he's considered a battlecleric, but he's definitely able to heal, that's just not his primary role in a group.

In shroud, he has fewer spell points than the pure clerics but can easily fill in for rez, heals, etc.

I'm not sure if he does much DPS or not - I know he uses BB for a lot of stuff, kites mobs through them and hurts them a lot. the self heal definitely helps - his heals go off for a LOT of hit points per shot.

Anyway he is an awesome example of an aggro cleric (solos Vale stuff all the time, soloed or duoed reaver when he was lower level, etc.) whether or nto you call that battle cleric.

PS there are plenty of badly played classes, including some of my characters :) but as you said this is the *cleric* forum. Some people seem to have a bigger bias against multi-classed clerics than others for some reason. Others don't. To each their own.

[Feynt]

Just curious if Battlecleric actually has to mean melee only. In my mind, battlecleric is more about keeping himself alive to fight using offense than being a buff/healbot, which is basically what I'd expect from a pure cleric (my level 17 is pure and has OK str but really is only good for portal beating and lower-level quests in terms of actual melee)


It all depends on how you keep yourself alive. If you're casting spells, you're an offensive caster/smiter. Typically the term battlecleric is reserved for those in melee, or close to it. I think it's rather ridiculous though, since by default a cleric needed to be in melee to even heal their party in the PnP game.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think people tend to confuse Battlecleric and bad cleric.

They also confuse ranged ranger and bad ranger....and a few others IMO.

People also confuse new cleric who doesn't heal with battle cleric.


But....
The other issue....is people who need a cleric to begin with.

LFM "WW need healer"
Huh?!

Sad thing is, they really do need a healer.

Well...
While I dislike any player who needs a baby sitter.
And I dislike Pals and Rgrs who cannot heal themselves.

There's nothing I dislike more than a cleric who cannot heal himself.

But what is the real issue here?
Do you think Clerics aren't fit to fight? That they are poorly equiped to jump into the thick of things and scrap with the big dogs?

I take my lowbie Wizards trhough quests...run out of SP...and then join in the melee fun just fine. And they're way squishier than clerics.

And I see 600+ HP Barbarians get beat up all the time.

While some classes are better at somethings than others....
While people usually expect certain classes to play certain roles...

It's not the battle cleric char that is flawed IMO.
It's the people playing the battle cleric, and the party members with him that are flawed IMO.

The only reason I need a cleric is because a cleric is cheaper than potions.
And because other players expect me to do something stupid, like stand in a dragon's mouth and make him angry at me....or dare a pit fiend to hit me when I'm kissing his belly.

Other than that, I'll take a whole party of battle clerics with me and not die.
(I'll even heal them, raise them and carry their stones to the shrine if need be.)

This is a team game.
And even without established roles, it's still a team game.
But before you can take care of a team mate, you need to be able to take care of your self.

And "professional adventurers" of any class will not become a problem for their fellow party members.

[sainy_matthew]

I'm playing a battle cleric @ lvl 2 (just built it last week) & already i have a sotry of somebody who thought that clerics are there just for there own sake. I have already found that the people who complain the loudest about Battle-Clerics are usually the ones who do the stupidest things in combat & need the most healing/buffing. One example of this is my most recent trip into the Waterworks.

I was invited to group with some others i had never roleplayed with before & we went into the Waterworks (which i am technically to weak to be in) & we started to kick in heads. I had kit-ed myself out for any common or uncommon low level contingency; Wooden Club & shield for fighting slimes & rusties, repair potions for healing Warforged, water breathing rings for underwater exploration. I was ready & more to the point i was vigilant, because i knew everything here had my number (stat wise).

Thats when i came across, a fighter i shall call "Sir Aggro-Alot". This little whinner would run into a room, aggro everything pull it all back & then complain that he needed healing & buffs, only to go out and do it again. Well there is some space between shrines in the waterworks & soon i was running out of SP (having to heal everyone & buff Sir Aggro-Alot). After awhile Sir Aggro-Alot got on the others nerves & ran into multiple areas, triggering multiple encounters and ran them all back to us.

It was almost a complete wipe. All but myself and a single other player survived (the player unsuprisingly wasn't Sir Aggro-Alot). We pulled back, then ran back in and grabbed all the stones except Sir Aggro-Alot... he couldn't wait & had released to the nearest inn. when he finally got back he started to do the same thing again, at which point the leader dropped him from the group.

We completed much of the run & then recalled back to the entrance, where Sir Aggro-Alot had been sitting for the last 30 minutes waiting to complain. He was annoyed at being kicked from the group and then blamed the near wipe on me the battle-cleric, because i wasn't healing & buffing him enough.

So my point in this story would be, its not always the battle-clerics job to protect you from your own stupidity, nor should it be. Pack your own protection, never rely on somebody else to do it for you. If your mission fails because you all died that is not the fault of the cleric. Yes there are a few horrible players who just happen to be playing battle-clerics but horrible-play is not restricted to any particular build, horrible players come in all shapes, sizes, races & classes.

-M

[Maurader]

As nice as a maximzed Blade barrier is its nothing compared to the damage fire wall puts out, or a raging barbarian. Ive found myseld that when soloing BB is awesome, when in a good 6 man group the extra damage bb puts out is almost all the time insignificant. There has been the odd time when its come in handy but almost all the time I find it to be a better use of my sp to heal, buff and deal with things like blindness, curse and all that. Sure some people might find it different but that has been my experiance.

Oh and i pack a cursespewing weapon, cause nothing says I hate you like making it easier for the dps in your group to hit the mobs.

[samho]

As nice as a maximzed Blade barrier is its nothing compared to the damage fire wall puts out, or a raging barbarian. Ive found myseld that when soloing BB is awesome, when in a good 6 man group the extra damage bb puts out is almost all the time insignificant. There has been the odd time when its come in handy but almost all the time I find it to be a better use of my sp to heal, buff and deal with things like blindness, curse and all that. Sure some people might find it different but that has been my experiance.

Oh and i pack a cursespewing weapon, cause nothing says I hate you like making it easier for the dps in your group to hit the mobs.

While blade barrier does have it's limit, if you are going to against non-undead (since firewall do double damage vs undead), especially those who comes with some fire-resistance ( or better yet, immunity to fire ), then blade barrier will easily out damage/spell point ratio. A max/empower/quicken/extended blade barrier cost about 90sp -- it's been said that if an encounter require more than 3 full heal (or 2 mass cure with metamagic on) to make it done and the environment allow for kiting, then chance are, you might be better off with blade barrier approach if you care about spell point usage.


But again, it really depend on how your group build up -- do you have a good intimidate tank to gather all aggro or have a high DC arcane caster to do the crowd control so everything is either dancing or webbed / stoned, or you have a band of random melee / caster who like to ping-pong the aggro and take every single possible hit they could? Blade Barrier is just a powerful tool, it is there to provide you a method to deal with your enemy -- grouped or not.


Side note: it is better for us not wasting spell point with curse remove and lesser restore (for those who getting fatigue or exhaustion). There's wand and pot available for use. Think about it -- each curse remove cost you 20sp while heal cost you 35sp. They are also avilable on clicky form. I didn't cast those spell for a long while, and swap to "potion curing" some times after Vision of Destruction release. (the curse wound been implement by raid boss). And cursespewing doesn't help to make your meleer hit your target easier -- it's more like make your caster (divine or arcane) land your spell easier, and helps for monster land less hit on your melee if they ever have a respectable AC. Destruction and Improved Destruction weapon helps for reducing AC which help meleer getting their hit.

[sirgog]

As nice as a maximzed Blade barrier is its nothing compared to the damage fire wall puts out, or a raging barbarian. Ive found myseld that when soloing BB is awesome, when in a good 6 man group the extra damage bb puts out is almost all the time insignificant. There has been the odd time when its come in handy but almost all the time I find it to be a better use of my sp to heal, buff and deal with things like blindness, curse and all that. Sure some people might find it different but that has been my experiance.

Oh and i pack a cursespewing weapon, cause nothing says I hate you like making it easier for the dps in your group to hit the mobs.

Where Bladebarrier truly shines is in one of two situations:

1) Against foes that are extremely tough to melee, such as air elementals
2) Against large numbers of foes.

My Clr18/Ftr2 is specced for melee, but loves running through Sins of Attrition on normal or hard (soloing it), getting the aggro of between 15 and 40 various Devils, then dropping one to two bladebarriers in a room, and making minced devil. With BB dealing an average of about 180 damage per tick (280 on a failed save, 140 on a successful one, these mobs save a lot), and often hitting 25 mobs per second (counting mobs that are hit twice in a second as two hits), that's something like 4500 damage per second being dealt - more than ten times what an absolutely top-rate barbarian can do.

Once there's five or six mobs left, it's time to swing the axe to kill those last few.

In fact, that was largely my strategy for that quest on Elite too, except we didn't consider aggroing more than 10-15 devils at once, and had two clerics and a favored soul alternating between spamming Bladebarrier and healing. The melees and the arcane caster in our group did their best to pretend to be useful, but they really weren't important to our success, except for the caster's Displacement, Jump and Haste.



All that said, back on battleclerics. Here's one I'd love to have in a raid.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=210269

Arguably the best soloing achievement yet in DDO as it required almost no resource usage - less than most full 12-person PUG groups use! Next time I run a VoD, I'll have to get Valiance to solo it for us while the healbot builds, traditional melees and casters sit in the corner picking their noses.