AC, how much do you need?

[Wyrmnax]

I know, you either go with 0, or you focus a lot on it.

But how much do you need?

I mean, my wizard's 14 ac could as well be 0 withouth any problem at lv 13. But if i plan on having AC, how much of it will i need?

IE: more directly, is there a way to know the BAB of monsters on diverse levels to know if your AC is making any kind of difference?

[Maxou69]

40-50 is not worthless and 60 should be your goal if you are an AC build. (and please don't tell me that you have 108...lol)

Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normalI think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.

[Zenako]

Well there is no STOCK answer, but as long as the monsters miss you on more than just 1's, AC has value in that it reduces incoming hits. However, that does need to be cautioned by considering what you are giving up in those slots to get the AC. The BEST single AC effect you can get as a Wizard is Displacement. That right there makes your AC effectively good enough that half the attacks miss you.

On a more serious note, by the time you are level 13, the mobs you are facing in places like Gianthold have to hit bonuses on the order of +30 or more. So anything below that is just the same as 0. But it also means that someone in the 50 range is almost untouchable at those levels.

When the mobs were adding +5 to hit in the Harbor or Korthos Isle a 15 AC was very very useful. When the mobs are adding +30 to hit, that same AC is like nothing. When the Raid Bosses are getting things like +65 to hit, lesser AC again becomes ineffective.

With my Wizards, I ignore AC effects and boosts at high levels. Displacement and Stoneskin are the staples of avoiding damage.

[foxx]

40-50 is not worthless and 60 should be your goal if you are an AC build. (and please don't tell me that you have 108...lol)

Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normalI think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.



under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.
as far as a wiz, goes, forget ac.

[Wyrmnax]

Doh.

I dont care about AC for my wiz. Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin and not getting ganged up is all i need.

I meant i am making a fighter, and i want to know what kind of AC i should be aiming for at low, mid and high levels.

[KoboldKiller]

AC? BAH.

DPS is KING!!!!!!

If you kill it fast enough it can't hit you. :D

[Dexxaan]

under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.
as far as a wiz, goes, forget ac.

A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting Hold Person on you.



.

[Cyr]

For most wizards a 0 AC is as good as it is worth getting. Miss chance spells, twitch, and blocking DR (for certain builds) are what you rely on instead. If it is a general question of when AC matters. I would say if you have under 60 AC at end game (with buffs) your AC is going to be largely pointless. AC in the 70 range grants you large miss chances by most mobs in game. AC in the 80's range give you the same deal for the end game raid bosses. AC in the 90's makes you only hit on 20's or grazing blows...at least until epic comes out then who knows. Remember when doing AC calculations that pali aura, barkskin, haste, recitation, clickies, shield wands, and bard AC song are all a real possibility in raid situations so your base AC may go up a heck of a lot in those cases.

[Therigar]

Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normal I think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.

Let's just take this as fact, that on normal Shroud (the quest most players are familiar with) the attack bonus is +52. That means to have enough AC where only 20s hit you need 72 AC. It also means a 53 AC is getting hit every time.

Because Harry's aggro is random you might never be the target of an attack. Or, you might be the target of every attack. So, how much AC do you need?

Figure sustained raid buffs through a full round with Harry as +15 from constant haste, ranger barkskin, paladin full aura and a bard song. If you're shooting for that 72 it means you need a standing AC of 57.

Please note that this will be good through the Shroud -- on normal. Newer content and higher difficulty settings will shift this upward.

[paul1devries]

A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting Hold Person on you.



.

Hmm well i guess i agree and disagree. I think with a 65 ac you are going to be hit a ton on raid bosses and chew up alot of cleric mana - but then again you will not likely die as 500+ hitpoints gives the cleric time to heal you when you get down below 50%.

I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.

I guess that falls in the exception class? But if the exception is the norm for builds trying to get high ac, then are they not viable builds?

Oh yeah, and it is more than worth it to beat down on the 600+ hitpoint guys in PvP while they keep whiffing at you....... :)

Cheers

[Junts]

the bab on shroud normal is 47 not 52; 67 ac is the safe point for shroud normal

63-67 ac is also relative safety from all endgame trash mobs that are not tiefling archers or barbazu; you will need to be in the mid-70s before barbazu stop hitting you.

[redraider]

I run a Mobster (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207280) build - TWF 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Rog that has mid 50's AC in TWF mode but has Defender II and can hit low 80's raid buffed with a shield (Theorectical max of 91 but have never been there). Don't listen to Kobold Killer. DPS is not king and hasn't been for a while. Max DPS is nice but a good AC with good DPS is much better. Being able to switch between TWF DPS mode and AC Mode is priceless. Oh, and have 467 Hps in Intim/AC mode and 507 in DPS mode.

Here is a prospective breakdown in light armor and I'm sure I've missed something.

10 base
10 armor (mith breast of destruction)
7 dex (with ftr armor mast II and ftr tower mast II plus Defender bonus)
9 Mith Tower shield
1 Alchemical Armor Ritual
1 Alchemical Shield Ritual
5 nat(bark)
5 Prot
1 Dodge feat
2 Chaos Guards
2 Favored Enemy
4 Insight (shroud)
3 chattering ring dodge
5 Pali Aura
2 Recitation
5 Combat Expertise
2 Stalwart Defender II AC Bonus
3 Stalwart Defender II +3 Dodge Stance Bonus
4 Blocking Armor Bonus
4 Bard
1 Haste
5 Human Vesatility Armor Clicky
_____
91 AC (take off the clicky and pali aura for a normal blocking 81)

[Wyrmnax]

All right. On the 70s for raid stuff.... means almost 60 standing... sounds good.

What about middle level stuff? If your being hit too much, you need more ac, if not you dont?

Or anyone has a idea of BAB of stuff on gianthold, the desert, etc?

[foxx]

A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting .




i'm not an ac player, fact is, under 72, raid bosses will eat you alie like you don't even have an ac.

btw
your therories need alot of work.

[assamite]

For most wizards a 0 AC is as good as it is worth getting. Miss chance spells, twitch, and blocking DR (for certain builds) are what you rely on instead. If it is a general question of when AC matters. I would say if you have under 60 AC at end game (with buffs) your AC is going to be largely pointless. AC in the 70 range grants you large miss chances by most mobs in game. AC in the 80's range give you the same deal for the end game raid bosses. AC in the 90's makes you only hit on 20's or grazing blows...at least until epic comes out then who knows. Remember when doing AC calculations that pali aura, barkskin, haste, recitation, clickies, shield wands, and bard AC song are all a real possibility in raid situations so your base AC may go up a heck of a lot in those cases.

Word

[ddoer]

I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.


may I ask for more information about your Horoth tanking? how many times you have tanked it successfully? and do you have other dps beat it from the back?

the first doubt in my mind is that 365 HP won't work because it will disintegrate you at 500 a hit, and it will stun and drop your HP very fast. as you said it works, I would want your clarification.

the second doubt is how do you manage to hold Horoth's aggro, say, when a barb is hitting it from the back. Perhaps you have all the hate generation gears, or you don't have any other hitter.

[assamite]

If you can get mid 50 ac by yourself your in good shape for raids. Defender AC is on top now as it should be, no longer monks :D. I only have my ac on for trash so i use less party resources. When we get to the boss i do away with ac and put on guards,

[Atoth]

Need is a subjective term at anything below high level fights
AC depends on what the bonus your opponent has so you need 20 more than the bonus something needs to hit you, so somenone said Gianthold is +32 average you need 52

If you have 1 point less than 20+attack bonus you need 2x as much healing as you get hit 2x as often

at level 1-3 things rarely have more than +5 so 25 is good (it is easy to beat at low levels)

the best way to tell is run an instance and just watch the dice or combat log add 20 to the highest bonus you see and that is how much you need

At low levels like I said if you have less than (20 ac more than the bonus to hit you just need more healing)

I may be totaly wrong but i think this is how it works as I am low level ATM, keep in mind also there are ac debufs, which means you may need more ac depending on the fight

[Aranticus]

Hmm well i guess i agree and disagree. I think with a 65 ac you are going to be hit a ton on raid bosses and chew up alot of cleric mana - but then again you will not likely die as 500+ hitpoints gives the cleric time to heal you when you get down below 50%.

I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.

I guess that falls in the exception class? But if the exception is the norm for builds trying to get high ac, then are they not viable builds?

Oh yeah, and it is more than worth it to beat down on the 600+ hitpoint guys in PvP while they keep whiffing at you....... :)

Cheers

roll a 1 when tanking horoth and you'll wish you have more hp

[Aranticus]

may I ask for more information about your Horoth tanking? how many times you have tanked it successfully? and do you have other dps beat it from the back?

the first doubt in my mind is that 365 HP won't work because it will disintegrate you at 500 a hit, and it will stun and drop your HP very fast. as you said it works, I would want your clarification.

the second doubt is how do you manage to hold Horoth's aggro, say, when a barb is hitting it from the back. Perhaps you have all the hate generation gears, or you don't have any other hitter.

most likely they were using the solo tank method

[Yargore]

I know, you either go with 0, or you focus a lot on it.

You have been misinformed.


But how much do you need?

Around 55+ for current endgame quests.

[Yargore]

under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.

lol. What game are you playing?
Not DDO, that's for sure.

[spyderwolf]

55-60+ self buff for end game trash mobs is more than enough, 65-70+ self buff for end game raid bosses.

ive tanked horoth on elite with a pure fighter with a 78 twf ac,537 hp. with 4 people beating on his back. towards the end of part 3 i even turned CE off and swapped to PA and dropped to 73 and was fine, on elite.

[valorik]

you don't need 80+ unless you're tanking a raid boss on hard or elite.

I was main takning horoth with a 75 ac on my pally (we were short a bard, and he's not fully equipped yet), and he was missing me 1/2 the time, granted he was debuffed as he can get.

[Shade]

AC is balanced for the maximum values.

Why? Because if they didn't, people at the maximum would be invincible and find the game a total joke.

Max AC is 130+

You honestly believe having over 50 points less then that will have a big impact endgame? Really?

[Shade]

I was main takning horoth with a 75 ac on my pally (we were short a bard, and he's not fully equipped yet), and he was missing me 1/2 the time, granted he was debuffed as he can get.

He was missing you 20% because of concealment. maybe another 10% because of AC.
His to-hit values on normal are at least +70.

And aside from that, tanking him on a ac build is a total waste of resources. You'll require way more healing then a Barbarian does as you dps too slow and the DoTs do heavy damage no matter what your ac.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

AC is balanced for the maximum values.

Why? Because if they didn't, people at the maximum would be invincible and find the game a total joke.

Max AC is 130+

You honestly believe having over 50 points less then that will have a big impact endgame? Really?


Failsauce 2000, you know nothing of what you speak. (Obviously, as you only play a barb)




He was missing you 20% because of concealment. maybe another 10% because of AC.
His to-hit values on normal are at least +70.

And aside from that, tanking him on a ac build is a total waste of resources. You'll require way more healing then a Barbarian does as you dps too slow and the DoTs do heavy damage no matter what your ac.

Wrong!
And wrong!

I've kept tanks alive with my free CLW ALONE on my FS, don't tell me that costs more than a barb, because you know nothing of what you speak.

I've ended multiple tod runs with over 2k sp left on my FS, with 2 healers and an AC tank.


OP:
Aim for ~55+ ac and you'll be happy.

[Quikster]

He was missing you 20% because of concealment. maybe another 10% because of AC.
His to-hit values on normal are at least +70.

And aside from that, tanking him on a ac build is a total waste of resources. You'll require way more healing then a Barbarian does as you dps too slow and the DoTs do heavy damage no matter what your ac.

Huh? No this is incorrect. At 75 ac a lot of incoming hits are wiffs. We use an ac tank 95% of the time and its a lot easier. Having someone constantly spam heal is a waste of resources. Barbs take a ton of damage in there. Is it possible to have a barb tank in ToD? Sure. Its not my preferred method though.

[Zenako]

Echoing the mid 50's spot to shoot for. For the vast majority of mobs you will face, that will have value. Fighting an Elite End Game Raid boss you will need more to be effective, but for all encounters short of that, it will matter.

Keep the context of the answers in mind. For some players the only thing that matters to them is being able to beat the Toughest End Game Raid Bosses, everything else is noise along the way. So for them if the build does not fully support that singular goal, it is pointless.

On the other hand, MOST players do not spend all their time fighting those Raid Bosses, so the other 95% of the mobs in the game DO matter, and for those, viable non gimping your build AC's can be acheived.

Also with grazing hits introduced, it is not as clear cut where the line needs to be drawn. Even the grazing damage from some mobs is nothing to be ignored, and since those hit regardless of your AC, the benefits of being hit only on 20's is now replaced with hit on 20's but also grazed on more swings. Vs some combo of hits and grazes down to the minimum graze number of the quest setting. Extensive threads were posted on this whole concept during the beta testing, and the developers kept changing the grazing mechanics right up until release likely based on much of the feedback.

[Shade]

Huh? No this is incorrect. At 75 ac a lot of incoming hits are wiffs. We use an ac tank 95% of the time and its a lot easier. Having someone constantly spam heal is a waste of resources. Barbs take a ton of damage in there. Is it possible to have a barb tank in ToD? Sure. Its not my preferred method though.
"Allot" "allot" of players stay purposely vague when they have no idea what there talking about. I had a guy tank with 85 AC on hard the other day, he got destroyed.

If someone doesn't constantly spam heals/repairs on the tank, regardless of his AC. He's dead. DoTs and Meteor swarm damage you no matter how uber you are. So I guess your prefered way to do it is just let the tanks die.

Also "waste of resouces" is a pretty poor excuse to do use barbarians. They are way more reliable, and the resource cost for a good one tanking is far less then what you make from selling the junk from the raid itself. Generally 0 pots and less then 100 scroll, so less then 13kpp, less then what a single player loots from the raid on the way. I'd argue that every single time your groups used AC tanks, they used MORE resources then mine with Barbarian tanks, because of the big waste of time you had to do to build up agro, or just generally low DPS composition of your group. We kill him in 2-3 minuits on hard on average. You take 10 minuits. Add it up.

Also over 90% of elite completion have been tanked by what class? (take a look at all the screenshots on the forums)
I rest my case.

[FluffyCalico]

Max AC is 130+

You honestly believe having over 50 points less then that will have a big impact endgame? Really?

Hm 130-50=80...am I missing something or is this shade math because 80 ac is great for anything on normal and all but 1-2 bosses on elite and is useful for them even on elite.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Hm 130-50=80...am I missing something or is this shade math because 80 ac is great for anything on normal and all but 1-2 bosses on elite and is useful for them even on elite.

It's Shade Math.

[Diarden1]

A lot of misinformation here, and its quite comical.

First off, Shade needs to stop. He's trolling, and just bad at it. Stop fueling his fire.

If you want a reliable AC for tanking instances, 50-60 will do you fine. Even in the vale, it will get you by without taking too much damage. When you get to Devils Battlefield, you will need 70+ AC to be truly effective (ability to solo with self heals). If you want to survive tanking high end bosses, I would suggest 85+ AC. Is it possible to do and still deal damage? absolutely.

If you wish to play a tank, you need to realize that it is super gear intensive. If you truly want a great tank with high AC and hp, and still be able to dish out some serious damage, be ready for a lot of farming. It is possible to have the best of all three worlds, and the build I use does it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198820&highlight=candy+mountain

I use Candy's build and it works super well. High damage, one of the highest AC's, high hp and the ability to intimidate endgame bosses and heal yourself with reconstruct scrolls. Evasion is also a plus (although I see my reflex is not as high as it should be for endgame) but for the most part, this build will get you through pretty much everything.

To the rest of you spouting a bunch of propaganda, if you don't know what you're doing, don't give advice.

[Wyrmnax]

Heh, im am not planning to make a AC tank. Not yet at least.

I just wanted to know how much AC was needed so i didnt get hit on a 2 by everything on the game. Now i know i should be aiming for the 50s.

[Visty]

under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.

that is so wrong, i dont even know how to correct it

[Zenako]

Heh, im am not planning to make a AC tank. Not yet at least.

I just wanted to know how much AC was needed so i didnt get hit on a 2 by everything on the game. Now i know i should be aiming for the 50s.

The nice thing about shooting for the 50's is that you can get there by a number of different ways. You can be a fighter with a moderate DEX and Mithril Full Plate and Shield and CE and do it without much problem. You can be a Paladin. You can take a High DEX character and Armor Bracers (or the same effect). You can combine classes with synergy and hit those marks. None of those require an overt singlemindedness to achieve, and all have significant value while playing your way up to the highest level quests.

[Mical]

AC Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=205669

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirgog
AC at current endgame:

<50 - near to useless on all difficulties
51-54 - modest reduction in incoming melee damage on normal only
55-58 - modest reduction on hard difficulty, significant reduction on normal
59-62 - Modest reduction on elite, significant on hard, near-invulnerability to all save raid bosses on normal
63-66 - significant reduction in incoming melee damage on elite, near invulnerability to melee damage on all other foes save Hard difficulty raid bosses
67-70 - Excellent damage mitigation on all save Elite Vod, Elite Hound, Elite Shroud
80+ - Near invulnerability to melee damage on all elite content.


i think this is pretty reasonable...
except it needs to be a little bit higher for each tier of raid bosses

[Gunga]

AC Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=205669
i think this is pretty reasonable...
except it needs to be a little bit higher for each tier of raid bosses

Great resource. Thanks.

[Dark-Star]

Sadly, in elite level content, the new end game frontier, high AC is meaningless.