Ultimate dps ! F2p zerg ! Is it Zerg for vets?

[LeeRoy]

So I'm not really familar with melees and after playing my casters. I cant see playing melees, the mindset is so much diffrent. (for me atleast) I have a friend that wishes to duo with me and he want the best dps ever so I will be crunching numbers and doing my own math but if anyone can enlighten me on this "IF" and "IF" situation

If a rouge is stabbing a mob in the back with dual kopeshes, str build, halfing maxed sneak, assasin III, the nine yards min 2 kopeshes obvi. Is it more dps then (full backstab no chance of agro) full buffs !

A Ranger 18 ranger 2 rouge on (first and maxed favored wise) favored enemy with full backstab damage buffs!
halfing also with backstab line taken

OR is there more dps on another build (this build will not ever have agro in the duo party considering im going to make an intimtank)

ALso I wanted to know peoples opinion on the forums of zerging

When I do play melees my general thoughts of zerging is running past stuff
Now if i clear everything break every box do every optional is that zerging or just being to good for that individual party?
Its strictly opinion wise I'm curious

[Varr]

A proper Zerg requires more killing than you think. You must make sure to destroy most any physical threat you come accross to make sure you aren't forced to backtrack and pick up soulstones. A good example is in deleras part 2......a proper Zerg runs up the stair ignoing the archerers, but delays just long enough to slay the arcain skelly adit rises to make sure nohold/lightning party member death soul stone retreval required.

Rookie zergers will just run past that spot and there a many like efficent deaths you need to apply to ease the burden of the flower pickers as they wander from startto end behind you swath of destruction.

[LeeRoy]

A proper Zerg requires more killing than you think. You must make sure to destroy most any physical threat you come accross to make sure you aren't forced to backtrack and pick up soulstones. A good example is in deleras part 2......a proper Zerg runs up the stair ignoing the archerers, but delays just long enough to slay the arcain skelly adit rises to make sure nohold/lightning party member death soul stone retreval required.

Rookie zergers will just run past that spot and there a many like efficent deaths you need to apply to ease the burden of the flower pickers as they wander from startto end behind you swath of destruction.

Kill the archers and wizards.
Personally I play wfs. This makes killing archers easy. High damage low speed, high to hit and a like to kill the stuff
The question was more do people consider killing everything to fast for the party to keep up a zerg because sometimes I do this I'm not god I'm cocky but thats not the point of this. I just want to know wether most the vets think its zerging to do it constantly faster then the party can keep up is it zerg to go fast or to run past?
<<rep for the fast past rhyme>>

[Varr]

No vet is ever going to consider someone killing all the skellies in deleras a zerger. What possibly is the party doing that they can't keep up with a non hasted non firewalling melée killing every archer? Underwater chest? Washing thier car? Eating dinner with the wife? All role play permadeath guilds won't say your zerging killing every archer. Hehe.

[LeeRoy]

No vet is ever going to consider someone killing all the skellies in deleras a zerger. What possibly is the party doing that they can't keep up with a non hasted non firewalling melée killing every archer? Underwater chest? Washing thier car? Eating dinner with the wife? All role play permadeath guilds won't say your zerging killing every archer. Hehe.

But I hardly ever get outdps'ed even by other vets. (At low levels)
My melees do find themselves actually doing this sometimes because the combination of a slow moving party and me being hasted and sprint boost I definatlly have been called zerger several times for the fact that I was ahead of the party not because I wasn't killing or breaking boxes or doing optionals.

[whysper]

The ultimate DPS: the colonel, in the library, backstabbing with a candle.

[ViolentEnd]

lol

edit .. lol to both of the previous two posts (for different reasons)

[Absolute-Omniscience]

A proper Zerg requires more killing than you think. You must make sure to destroy most any physical threat you come accross to make sure you aren't forced to backtrack and pick up soulstones. A good example is in deleras part 2......a proper Zerg runs up the stair ignoing the archerers, but delays just long enough to slay the arcain skelly adit rises to make sure nohold/lightning party member death soul stone retreval required.

Rookie zergers will just run past that spot and there a many like efficent deaths you need to apply to ease the burden of the flower pickers as they wander from startto end behind you swath of destruction.

Wrong!
A proper zerg requires close to no killing.

"newbie" zergers:
Don't kill > die

Average zergers that think they're awesome:
Kill too much > don't die

Great zergers:
Don't kill > don't die.

The example you gave (arcane skeletons in part 2 deleras) are never killed by one of my groups, and those have never been a cause of death for me or anyone in the party, really.

Tumbling through Gwylans at level 5 with red DA aint much of a problem either, for any "great" zerger.

When it comes to DPS, the the really consists of:
13-rogue / 6 ranger / 1 - monk builds at the top with max str, khopesh etc.
Second place is somewhat tied between pure wf barb, pure wf paladin, pure wf fighter
After that you have some multilclass choices which performs far better than the second place in most situations, such as 12-fighter / 6-ranger / 2- monk, or 18/2 splash type of builds.

[LeeRoy]

Wrong!
A proper zerg requires close to no killing.

"newbie" zergers:
Don't kill > die

Average zergers that think they're awesome:
Kill too much > don't die

Great zergers:
Don't kill > don't die.

The example you gave (arcane skeletons in part 2 deleras) are never killed by one of my groups, and those have never been a cause of death for me or anyone in the party, really.

Tumbling through Gwylans at level 5 with red DA aint much of a problem either, for any "great" zerger.

When it comes to DPS, the the really consists of:
13-rogue / 6 ranger / 1 - monk builds at the top with max str, khopesh etc.
Second place is somewhat tied between pure wf barb, pure wf paladin, pure wf fighter
After that you have some multilclass choices which performs far better than the second place in most situations, such as 12-fighter / 6-ranger / 2- monk, or 18/2 splash type of builds.

I want to see math because atm my math shows a rouge(20) being top with a ranger close behind (18ranger 2 rouge)

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Alright, here it is. (Take note that this is without the new attackspeed changes, but the result should be very similar)

Ravager build
13/6/1


Ravager Halfling Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
16 8 Strength
5 5 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
6 6 Favored enemy
2 2 Ram's might
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
53,5 45,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
0 0 Tempest set
0 0 Henshin monk set
52,5 52,5 Sneak attack
0 0 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
66,5 66,5 Effects Total
120 112 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
10 10 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
160,5 136,5 Base critical damage
66,5 66,5 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
30 30 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
279 255 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
120 112 Attack 2
120 112 Attack 3
120 112 Attack 4
120 112 Attack 5
120 112 Attack 6
120 112 Attack 7
120 112 Attack 8
120 112 Attack 9
120 112 Attack 10
120 112 Attack 11
120 112 Attack 12
120 112 Attack 13
120 112 Attack 14
120 112 Attack 15
120 112 Attack 16
279 255 Attack 17
279 255 Attack 18
279 255 Attack 19
293 269 Attack 20
146,5 135,7 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
6 6 Number of haste boosts
10 10 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
30 30 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
Yes Yes Quick draw

Attackspeed
6 6 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/ Other
148,06 148,06 Haste/ Other/ Boost
635,98 635,98 Total Amount of Attacks

93170,61 86302,06 Total Damage
35894,53 Damage/M
310,57 287,67 Damage/S
598,24 Damage Per Second


20 Rogue


Ravager Halfling Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
15 7 Strength
5 5 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
44,5 36,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
0 0 Tempest set
0 0 Henshin monk set
63 63 Sneak attack
0 0 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
77 77 Effects Total
121,5 113,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
12 12 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
133,5 109,5 Base critical damage
77 77 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
36 36 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
268,5 244,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
121,5 113,5 Attack 2
121,5 113,5 Attack 3
121,5 113,5 Attack 4
121,5 113,5 Attack 5
121,5 113,5 Attack 6
121,5 113,5 Attack 7
121,5 113,5 Attack 8
121,5 113,5 Attack 9
121,5 113,5 Attack 10
121,5 113,5 Attack 11
121,5 113,5 Attack 12
121,5 113,5 Attack 13
121,5 113,5 Attack 14
121,5 113,5 Attack 15
121,5 113,5 Attack 16
268,5 244,5 Attack 17
268,5 244,5 Attack 18
268,5 244,5 Attack 19
282,5 258,5 Attack 20
145,53 134,73 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
7 7 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
30 30 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
Yes Yes Quick draw

Attackspeed
7 7 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
138,25 138,25 Haste/ Other/ Boost
600,07 600,07 Total Amount of Attacks

87325,29 80844,53 Total Damage
33633,96 Damage/M
291,08 269,48 Damage/S
560,57 Damage Per Second


Ravager: 598 (Very SA dependent)
Pure rogue: 560 (Even more Sa dependent)

598/560=~7% more dps for the Ravager.

Can't be bothered to post paladin / fb / fighter / ranger at the moment, but the numbers are:
Paladin: 509 (very clicky intense, real dps is a bit lower)
Fighter: 492 (Last for about 5 minutes then it starts dropping slowing)
Barb: 494 (Very crit dependant, loses a lot of dps to Fortification)
Ranger: 481 (Very solid dps, unless non-FE or in this builds case when haste boosts runs out)

[Fenrisulven6]

.. do people consider killing everything too fast for the party to keep up a zerg ... want to know wether most the vets think its zerging to do it constantly faster then the party can keep up... is it zerg

No, thats not zerging. Thats a selfish jerk who needs to show off to impress others.

Real zergers work as a team, killing everything they aggro along the way. Not getting strung out. They work as a team to dispatch everything in the most lethal and efficient manner possible. Then race ahead together to dispatch the next set. Its not about you. Its about the group.

[Noctus]

No, thats not zerging. Thats a selfish jerk who needs to show off to impress others.

Real zergers work as a team, killing everything they aggro along the way. Not getting strung out. They work as a team to dispatch everything in the most lethal and efficient manner possible. Then race ahead together to dispatch the next set. Its not about you. Its about the group.


/truth spoken here.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

No, thats not zerging. Thats a selfish jerk who needs to show off to impress others.

Real zergers work as a team, killing everything they aggro along the way. Not getting strung out. They work as a team to dispatch everything in the most lethal and efficient manner possible. Then race ahead together to dispatch the next set. Its not about you. Its about the group.

Wrong!
That's rushing, not zerging.

[Gleipner]

Wrong!
That's rushing, not zerging.

What he said.

There are times that zerging is a better choise then rushing thou, but imho not many.

[whysper]

Wrong!
A proper zerg requires close to no killing.

I am not sure what that is called, but it sure is not zerg (http://www.starcraft2.com/features/zerg/)ing.

[Varr]

Wrong!
A proper zerg requires close to no killing.

"newbie" zergers:
Don't kill > die

Average zergers that think they're awesome:
Kill too much > don't die

Great zergers:
Don't kill > don't die

builds.

I'll agree with this.....would rephrase the second catagory which as written looks like a second attack on my suggestion with the wrong.

Since the op was asking about running in general pugs from a vets perspective......I'll contend that I'm 100% right and the third catagory you suggest is for experianced guild team zergs or well aquainted short man zergs.....and impractical/death trap style for most pick up groups trailers.

Making you wrong for most circumstances outside of guild zergs.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I'll agree with this.....would rephrase the second catagory which as written looks like a second attack on my suggestion with the wrong.

Since the op was asking about running in general pugs from a vets perspective......I'll contend that I'm 100% right and the third catagory you suggest is for experianced guild team zergs or well aquainted short man zergs.....and impractical/death trap style for most pick up groups trailers.

Making you wrong for most circumstances outside of guild zergs.

Yeh, in a group consisting of 1-2 great zergers and 4-5 "newbie" zergers the best way to do it is kill-zerg. (Well unless you solo-zerg it with the 4-5 slacking behind)

[Varr]

Yeh, in a group consisting of 1-2 great zergers and 4-5 "newbie" zergers the best way to do it is kill-zerg. (Well unless you solo-zerg it with the 4-5 slacking behind)

Totally agree.......now were cooking with fire.

[Valindria]

You should play a Warchanter Bard and He should play a Ranger/Rogue 18/2. Your songs will buff his damage. He can handle traps/locks. You can heal or CC or swing a sword. Best Duo I can think off.