Why Do People Race Through Dungeons ?

[skarwolf]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

[kaelis]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

We've done it before. Alot.... Alot. The first time it's cool, the 2nd time it's fun, by the 50th its a get in get out move on to better things mentality.

[hzx514]

If people are running off and dying, it's because they're bad. There's no way to deal with them except leave and pray the next group is better.

If people are running off and beating the quest for you, it's because they're good. If you're the kind of player who "wants to experience the game" then you probably won't want to party with those people, either.

[Impaqt]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

Doing the quests 500 times started it.

Remeber, this is the oldest "New Game" ever released.

If you want to run dungeons slow, find a guild that meets your needs or at least put up LFM's to that effect.

[Junts]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

Experienced players do it and don't die; aggroing more than 2-3 mobs at once is not a major problem in DDO the way it is in other MMOs. well-made ac chars can easily tank 10 mobs at once, or just ignore htem and drop them in a pit/leave them inaccessible as they zoom by.

Inexperienced players are frequently trying to mimc this ability, and consequently ruin your groups. The best approach to take is that if a player is doing this, you should expect them to be self-sufficient. If they know what they're doing, they will be .. if they don't, they won't be and they aren't your problem.

[Twerpp]

Just wait til next mod drops and we are all on True Re'ed toons. Epic zerg FTW.

[DANTEIL]

This is exactly my frustration, too! Even after I create an LFM that explicitly says "No zerging."


If you're the kind of player who "wants to experience the game" then you probably won't want to party with those people, either.

Haven't really figured out yet how to avoid those people. By the time the dungeon is underway, it's too late.

[shores11]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

This is unfortunate I will agree as I took dislike this play syle. But what you have is a bunch of older players that are rerolling characters or making new ones and they just want to get through the dungeon o get their XP so they can level up as fast as they can. However I disagree in your remark about other games booting folks from party's if they did this as that is not true. Something like that occurs on every MMO and it is up to that group if they want players like that in their party. I played many other MMO's prior to DDO and it was even worse over there. This does not excuse the conduct on DDO it is just the way they want to play.

I would find a group of players like I do that quest in a dungeon as you would or even join a guild with like minded playing style. Believe there are plenty of them out there I run with many of them on Khyber but I am sure all servers have them as well.

I hope that things improve for you because I really believe new players to DDO is a great thing and I certainly welcome you to the game.

[Thriand]

To get to the end

[foxx]

why ask why,
there may be a bud dry at the end,
and maybe not.


BTW
domestic beers make me wanna stay in the tavern for a good micro brew.

[Sirea]

To get to the end

Nice :D

[Aumvaar]

This is the primary, if not the SOLE, reason I don't do PUGs. It's not that I don't like meeting new people to group with, it's that I hate zerging.

I understand the whole "we've done it 500 times" thing, but understanding doesn't mean I approve. I play DDO to have fun & immerse myself into the content, & I can't do that if the rest of the group wants to race to the end.

[hzx514]

Let's be honest, there are players who are not friendly to new players. You can tell who they are when their LFM says "This party is not noob friendly. 'Party players' can go play Candyland." (a favorite of yours truly). The best thing you can do is join a party that says "No zerging" or make one yourself. Then, when you find a PUG you like, friend the people who you feel like you want to play with again. Problem solved.

[SoulDecay]

It's alot of fun if they do it quickly and efficently, but explain it as they go, and don't get mad if you get lost for a second.

It's not alot of fun if they skip stuff, don't say a word the whole time, and get mad when you're not right on their heels as they dash through in record time.

[parvo]

Try permadeath. We can still move through familiar quests pretty fast, but we slow down for noobs. If you really want to go slow, make a scout type character and ask to lead.

[Bunker]

OP: You are playing a cleric? Then you weild the power over many players that are levels 6 and lower.

First - Start your own group stating the pace you wish to go.
Second - Stand your ground on setting that pace.
Third - Anyone that runs ahead and dies is not a reflection on you, but on them and the lack of listening they can do.
Fourth - You are a cleric. Aside from the players that can hold thier own on surviving, you basically call the shot seeing as you are doing the healing.

If you do not take step 1 and make your own group, disregard everything. Nothing wrong with setting a pace, and being group leader will help.

[dkrypt]

This is exactly my frustration, too! Even after I create an LFM that explicitly says "No zerging."



Haven't really figured out yet how to avoid those people. By the time the dungeon is underway, it's too late.

QFT

I've had "no zerging, 1st time" in my LFM and then told people on voice the same thing. They say "np". Then they rush ahead beyond the sneaking, searching rogue, off our screen into their own thing (and occasionally half the group follows them). As a team leader, how would you recommend I handle this? I've never kicked anyone out of a group, but I'm about to try. Can I kick a team member mid-dungeon? I want to actually see and experience encounters etc, rather than arrive there ten minutes after the zerger and find nothing to do except maybe a chest.

[hecate355]

Because doing things 2x faster poses even little bit more of a challenge and can generate more adrenaline, especially when groups gameplay dosent break down even tiny bit. As sad as it is for a lot of people, anything thats left in dungeons is handful of variables, its like info stream, you do not need details, just operating through whole thing on autopilot.

That dosent mean i wont stop for a good reason like getting a buff, heal, songs and so on, whenever they are nessesary.

[DANTEIL]

If you do not take step 1 and make your own group, disregard everything. Nothing wrong with setting a pace, and being group leader will help.

Okay, but I feel like I'm in a catch-22 in this situation:

On the one hand, because I am new, I would like to play (and learn!) within a particular type of group style, which includes exploration/discovery.

On the other hand, because I am new, I don't feel equipped/prepared to be group leader. But whenever I have looked at other groups LFM, I have almost never seen any that match my desires (which is probably just my bad luck).

[Lithic]

Try permadeath. We can still move through familiar quests pretty fast, but we slow down for noobs. If you really want to go slow, make a scout type character and ask to lead.

Just be wary of gates. Or doors.

Or floors. And ceilings.

Or columns with decorative art on them.

Or columns without decorative art on them.

Or an absence of columns.

[Bunker]

Okay, but I feel like I'm in a catch-22 in this situation:

On the one hand, because I am new, I would like to play (and learn!) within a particular type of group style, which includes exploration/discovery.

On the other hand, because I am new, I don't feel equipped/prepared to be group leader. But whenever I have looked at other groups LFM, I have almost never seen any that match my desires (which is probably just my bad luck).

Catch-22 here we are. Yup that is most certainly true. Ask yourself this: I want to explore and discover the quests as if they are new, so why shouldn't I explore being a party leader at the same time.

I think learning to be a party leader can be as interesting as learning the quests. There will be players that will be a pain. And others that will gladly play along to your beat and help out. That is the challenge.

At first it might be a slow process, but use the tools that ddo offers when starting new groups and learning the quest.

Friend List: Use it. If you have a few players that fit your pace and style of playing, let them know you enjoyed it and add them to your friend list.

Guild: Use it. This is a perfect time to not only lead groups, but start up a guild. Nothing special, just like minded ppl that want to roll thru the dungeons the same way you do. In fact, talk with those players you put on your fiends list. See if they are interested in starting a guild with you.

LFM/LFG: This part is trial and error, but the more you participate in grouping, the more you will find what works and what doesn't. You will also interact with more players this way, and in doing so will be able to increase your Friend List and possibly start that guild up.

Remember one thing, guilds and friend lists do not have to be huge to be great. Some of the successful strong guilds of Thelanis (where I play) are small. They are made up of like minded players that have the same common interests in playing, raiding, pace, humor, ect ect. They all don't have to be huge to be great.

[ZeroStatic]

Squad leaders that enter a combat zone aren't always fully prepared either.

Might be a slightly odd comparison but it still holds some merit.

The challenge of being a leader is more about keeping your team together than being new old or knowing everything about a quest.

If you want to be a teamleader, just try to find out what all the classes can do so you know their abilities.
It becomes quite easy to think of a strategy afterwards, the only real problem is getting people to follow the orders.
And for that, you either need to know what kind of people you're playing with, or simply get people you already know how to play with.

eg.: I don't fare well in parties where the leader keeps saying ''HEAL ME", "PUT ALL RESISTS" when his hp is 75% and the only resist he might need is fire or something. I know what I'm doing. (This becomes increasibly annoying when the leader says FOLLOW ME!, COME COME HEAL when he's zerging through a dungeon, skipping half the required and optional objectives)

These slow paced ''play it safe'' dungeons make me think of more stereotypical role setups in the party though.
Rogue scouting & disabling traps all the time, Casters staying behind the rest of the party, Cleric having his heal wand ready in case of an unexpected ambush. So I guess it depends on how slow / safe you want to play it.

Of course the better response ability people have the easier it becomes to let them do other things and return to formation when something new is discovered.

[Thriand]

Okay, but I feel like I'm in a catch-22 in this situation:

On the one hand, because I am new, I would like to play (and learn!) within a particular type of group style, which includes exploration/discovery.

On the other hand, because I am new, I don't feel equipped/prepared to be group leader. But whenever I have looked at other groups LFM, I have almost never seen any that match my desires (which is probably just my bad luck).

I don't understand this, why would you want someone to hold your hand through a dungeon if you want to truly appreciate it. Personally if you want a slow dungeon crawl I would think you would want a group that has absolutely no knowledge of the dungeon before hand, that way you can truly appreciate the traps and ambushes and not have some guide telling you exactly whats going to happen.

Put up an LFM, you don't always need to be prepared, sometimes half the fun is figuring things out for yourself, personally thats my favorite part about when new content is released.

[Aumvaar]

just operating through whole thing on autopilot.

Just my thing, but ... when I get to a point that I feel like this, it's time to move on. I think this is true of both instances, & MMOs in general.

[Nonan]

To get to the end

Because they were stapled to the chicken.

[Thailand_Dan]

OP, listen to what Bunker said. In your LFM, don't put up "no zerging", rather, put up "Dungeon Crawl". This is the lingo for the pace you seem to be looking for. Often, people have different perspectives on what zerging is. Zerging is often leaving everything behind, literally racing to the end. Others might interpret this as simply skipping optionals. But a dungeon crawl means you fight something, heal everyone up, maybe scout out ahead, break every barrel, and squeeze that dungeon for everything its worth.

You cannot boot a team member mid-quest, but you can get on voice chat and tell them to slow down. If they don't, you can recall out, reform the group (w/o the offender), and try again.

Although you may enjoy the dungeon crawl pace, others may not, so make it clear in your LFM what you are looking for. Don't worry. Most zergers won't come near a group asking for a crawl. Also realize there are many new players in the game, and probably a lot of kids. They may be aggroing everything and be quite oblivious to the consequences. Insisting everyone have voice chat (with a microphone) might make it easier to communicate you want the group to stick together.

In the end, you can create whatever kind of group you want. However, the more choosy you are about your groups, the longer they usually take to fill. Keep this in mind if that LFM for Durk's got a secret takes an hour to fill.

[Shamurai]

to the OP all I can say is OMG I totally feel your pain!!

I purchased STK based on the "best packs to buy review" from these forums and my first attempt at it. I was the "pure healbot" lvl 4 cleric. I used VC and told everyone that I've never done this arc, and have no idea where to go. I informed them that alhtough I am only lvl 4 (they wer 5-7) I do have plenty of wands to get us through but move slowly and dont jump for squat so please don't lose me... OMG they left me behind every 5 seconds.. I was frustrated near to tears because my toon can't fight Saughin on normal she purely heals... I try to reserve all my SP for the party and use pots for myself, and wands when the points are gone.. well that attempt ate up all my Korthos lvl pots and 2 CLW wands and we didn't even finish due to a wipe that occured when I was left far behind. I had man (from a shrine) but by the time I found the party they were in bits with many angry mobs that just feasted on me... Attempt 1 at STK ~ Epic Failure!

Attempt 2 ~ I tried to create a PUG with my Pure cleric again with the words (NO ZERG ~ New Group) in the LFM. We didn't get a full group.. we got a barb, a rogue that couldn't disarm not fight all that well, my son a new monk and me with a fighter hireling. I again said I can't fight and really don't know the dungeon well so please no zerging.. 30 seconds later the barb was gone.. (not sure I ever saw him again cept for a far away blue dot in a mostly blackened map) the Rogue and monk.. well sucked my mana dry in like the first 4 - 5 mobs then because they can jump till the ceiling and back left me stranded with just my hireling who failed me miserably and I got killed... Attempt 2 at STK ~ More epic failure then Attempt 1

Attempt 3 ~ I said Bleep this bringing my lvl 8 paladin into the mix with a PUG (of my creation) that included a decent healer (and I brought Healer Faergus) as hireling, had a Rogue that could disarm traps, my son the monk and some others... Was going better.. then when I got to optional "geezik - Shagath Helm" bit I said I wanted to do it, because I'd never done it.. and even though they hadn't zerged much yet.. the others said . "No we're not going to do that and basically just left me and my son (with my hireling)... the three of us did the optional part well enough, but when we got back.. the rest of the party had wiped and I'm not sure they had done much damage, as we were swamped with mobs (on elite) and sucked up a lot of resources as they mobs dropped my hireling really fast and my lay on hands, and judicious use of CSW wands kept us alive long enough to Juuuust about beat the boss and get a reward... My son held the instance and I Released and fought my way back so we could actually beat it.. Took an unbelievable amount of time to do this arc.. Attempt 3 ~marginal success~

SO to make a short story very long.. SKARWOLF if you're on Thelanis .. add Heidiann (Pal8-almost 9), Shamurai (Sor6), or Faithrune (Clr4 - almost 5) and we'd looove to run this with you to "learn it" I'll bring my son too probably. I'm not one that must crush every barrel *but sometimes those pot drops help fund my expensive clerical habits* nor do every optional but I do like to see as much of the dungeon as needs to be seen.

[Junts]

Just my thing, but ... when I get to a point that I feel like this, it's time to move on. I think this is true of both instances, & MMOs in general.

That works until you want to level a new character; besides, this kind of retention happens at vastly different rates for different people. It took me 2 runs of two of the newest quests (genesis point and bastion of power) to learn everything that was going on in them and hit the point I was ready to speedrun them. Should I no longer play the endgame content?

Also, people frequently forget that sometimes people have time constraints. If I'm leveling my lv 7 char and I join your stormcleave outpost LFM, knowing the quest takes 30-35 minutes and I have 40 before I have to leave for class, only to grab my house p buffs and enter and find that you are taking absolutely for-freakin-ever to get into the quest in the first place, chances are pretty high that I'm going to go start on the quest because I have my own time limit to deal with and your lfm didn't say "slow play, learning quest", as I wouldn't have joined it if it did.

I'm not going to apologise for those kind of situations, because there's no advertising of your playstyle, and you're imposing your style on me as much as vice-versa when it's unclear. I came for my 9k exp, and I'm going to go get it whether you choose to spend 15 minutes staring at the questgiver or not, because I'm not missing my class to satisfy your obscure need to have everyone in visual distance of each other at all times.

[Aumvaar]

besides, this kind of retention happens at vastly different rates for different people.

I realize other people have different playing styles, & that's fine for them, & in fact, the beauty of this game is that they & I don't have to try to smash our round pegs into each other's square holes.

I was just pointing out that while there are certainly people who have what they consider valid reasons for zerging -- like you said, leveling a new toon, or having already done it hundreds of times -- there are also those of us who have equally valid reasons for not doing it. I very much agree with those who suggest that people clearly specify things like "dungeon CRAWL" in their LFMs, & I'm probably going to do so myself.

It's all good.

[Bartikus]

QFT

I've had "no zerging, 1st time" in my LFM and then told people on voice the same thing. They say "np". Then they rush ahead beyond the sneaking, searching rogue, off our screen into their own thing (and occasionally half the group follows them). As a team leader, how would you recommend I handle this? I've never kicked anyone out of a group, but I'm about to try. Can I kick a team member mid-dungeon? I want to actually see and experience encounters etc, rather than arrive there ten minutes after the zerger and find nothing to do except maybe a chest.

Leave the dungeon, drop the offending player and reform. That's what I'd do to you if you stopped to smell the roses too much in one of my groups. "That was easy"

[cyanpill]

To get to the other side

fix'd.

Anyways, as a new player, I kind of like seeing the details in quests.. but then again, I also like getting the shiney rewards at the end. Just as long as people don't rush so fast they mess things up. Also, it's pretty hard for me to disable traps on my first run thru.

[MDS_Geist]

When I want to do a quest completely I specify in the lfm "All bonuses including conquest, ransack, ingenious debilitation and perception." It's a bit wordy, but it makes clear from the get-go what is involved. When people click to join or send a tell, I remind them that we're going slowly and taking all the bonuses. If they don't agree, they don't join. Since I began doing that, I've not had any problems with it.

Perhaps I've been lucky, but the extra time to form the group seems to help. Even with some of the more...enthusiastic new players. :)

[MikSchultzy]

I've got a static character that I am playing with a pair of RL friends, where we make it a point to not rush things. I tend to enjoy that character more than I enjoy my other characters. (I have 4, 1 PLD/Ftr, and 3 rangers. The static is a ranger)

That being said, my other characters tend to go about 1.5x the speed of my static ranger. I don't like to rush, but I certainly hate going real slow.

I am typically the leader of the groups as well.

[DANTEIL]

It occurs to me that some of these problems could be avoided if there wasn't such a weird stigma attached to using the LFG functionality of the grouping tab. Yes, the little glowy coin thing is goofy, but people (such as myself) could put it out there that they were looking to join a group *and* could also specify what kind of group experience they were looking for. That way, the matching process between LFM and LFG could be much more mutual rather than being so one-sided.

[GreenGurgler]

As others have pointed out, many of us have been playing for years and have run many of these quests (especially the low level ones) hundreds of times. We just want to get beyond them to higher levels where we feel the game is more fun.

The best way to avoid this is to run your own groups and put "slow-no zerging" in the LFM or only join groups that dont advertise that they plan on zerging. If you join a group that does not state the speed, make sure you ask first otherwise its your fault for assuming they will play like you prefer to play.

A different scenario as someone stated above is when you start your own group and list NO ZERGING in the LFM but you still get a vet who joins and proceeds to zerg it anyway. There is no excuse for this a$$ hat and if you get a chance, politely explain your request. Unfortunately, if they area vet and are zerging, they probably dont care and will treat you with disrespect. The best you can do is recall and reform as their is no longer a way to boot someone while in a quest.

EVERYONE should read and respect the LFM request and the wishes of the party leader. Unfortuanly, some people lack social skills.

Welcome to DDO, we hope you can find a satisfactory way around this. Dont let this ruin the game for you. Start a guild specifically for new players and always advertise in your LFM that you are a slow play - no zerging party. And, then enforce this before you start a quest.

[Junts]

It occurs to me that some of these problems could be avoided if there wasn't such a weird stigma attached to using the LFG functionality of the grouping tab. Yes, the little glowy coin thing is goofy, but people (such as myself) could put it out there that they were looking to join a group *and* could also specify what kind of group experience they were looking for. That way, the matching process between LFM and LFG could be much more mutual rather than being so one-sided.


Its not a stigma; its a pain in the ass.

[Thailand_Dan]

to the OP all I can say is OMG I totally feel your pain!!

I purchased STK based on the "best packs to buy review" from these forums and my first attempt at it. I was the "pure healbot" lvl 4 cleric. I used VC and told everyone that I've never done this arc, and have no idea where to go. I informed them that alhtough I am only lvl 4 (they wer 5-7) I do have plenty of wands to get us through but move slowly and dont jump for squat so please don't lose me... OMG they left me behind every 5 seconds.. I was frustrated near to tears because my toon can't fight Saughin on normal she purely heals... I try to reserve all my SP for the party and use pots for myself, and wands when the points are gone.. well that attempt ate up all my Korthos lvl pots and 2 CLW wands and we didn't even finish due to a wipe that occured when I was left far behind. I had man (from a shrine) but by the time I found the party they were in bits with many angry mobs that just feasted on me... Attempt 1 at STK ~ Epic Failure!........

Attempt 2 ~ I tried to create a PUG with my Pure cleric again with the words (NO ZERG ~ New Group) in the LFM. We didn't get a full group.. we got a barb, a rogue that couldn't disarm not fight all that well, my son a new monk and me with a fighter hireling. I again said I can't fight and really don't know the dungeon well so please no zerging.. 30 seconds later the barb was gone.. (not sure I ever saw him again cept for a far away blue dot in a mostly blackened map) the Rogue and monk.. well sucked my mana dry in like the first 4 - 5 mobs then because they can jump till the ceiling and back left me stranded with just my hireling who failed me miserably and I got killed... Attempt 2 at STK ~ More epic failure then Attempt 1

Attempt 3 ~ I said Bleep this bringing my lvl 8 paladin into the mix with a PUG (of my creation) that included a decent healer (and I brought Healer Faergus) as hireling, had a Rogue that could disarm traps, my son the monk and some others... Was going better.. then when I got to optional "geezik - Shagath Helm" bit I said I wanted to do it, because I'd never done it.. and even though they hadn't zerged much yet.. the others said . "No we're not going to do that and basically just left me and my son (with my hireling)... the three of us did the optional part well enough, but when we got back.. the rest of the party had wiped and I'm not sure they had done much damage, as we were swamped with mobs (on elite) and sucked up a lot of resources as they mobs dropped my hireling really fast and my lay on hands, and judicious use of CSW wands kept us alive long enough to Juuuust about beat the boss and get a reward... My son held the instance and I Released and fought my way back so we could actually beat it.. Took an unbelievable amount of time to do this arc.. Attempt 3 ~marginal success~

SO to make a short story very long.. SKARWOLF if you're on Thelanis .. add Heidiann (Pal8-almost 9), Shamurai (Sor6), or Faithrune (Clr4 - almost 5) and we'd looove to run this with you to "learn it" I'll bring my son too probably. I'm not one that must crush every barrel *but sometimes those pot drops help fund my expensive clerical habits* nor do every optional but I do like to see as much of the dungeon as needs to be seen.

Well, that might be part of the problem. If you are too specific about how you want everyone to play THEIR character, it is often hard to fill the group. If you are asking for new players, no wonder you get a rogue who doesn't know how to do traps. One point you should consider is that STK may not be the right quest for lvl 4-5 new players. There are ambushes, doors which lock you in (until you kill everything), Encounters of 10 - 15 kobolds, all at once. Maybe you should stick to quests below level for a little while, then give STK a try when you get a bit higher.

[irivan]

Well after you have done a quest enough, it is more a matter of time perfection than exploration for the enjoyment, and since you really have no idea the level of experience of the other party members, it is easier to assume and use your invincibility to burn the quest down in 5 minutes than to slink along checking out the sites and snatching up barrels and collectibles.

TIP: New players should say in their LFG, and LFM; Is new player, taking it slow, exploring, still learning, likes to take time.

Folks will respect you, and you will draw like minded players that way, to be truthful the ultra elite quest busters want to group with like minded folks to, but when power leveling their toons they will settle for what ever, so the more info you can put down to describe what you are after, better for everyone!!

Peace holmes!!

[Elsbet]

This is the primary, if not the SOLE, reason I don't do PUGs. It's not that I don't like meeting new people to group with, it's that I hate zerging.

I understand the whole "we've done it 500 times" thing, but understanding doesn't mean I approve. I play DDO to have fun & immerse myself into the content, & I can't do that if the rest of the group wants to race to the end.

It's not really your place to approve or disapprove. It's one thing to immerse yourself in the content, but by the time you have 8 high level toons, you've re-rolled one toon for the 20th time and have run every harbor quest three times minimum on every previous incarnation, you're not immersed. You've drowned and there is no way to resuscitate you.

Durk isn't just a harmless drunk and doesn't have secret. He's the looney on the city street corner we wish we could ignore. Unfortunately, he's between us and our destination, so we have to deal with him.

That said, I think being clear about how you're going to run the quest in your LFM goes a long way to making sure the group is compatible.

[Thorzian]

killed by the elemental.. there lies the difference between you and the players that rush ahead. an experienced, fast group wont even fight an elemental in stk until the end. it is an easy quest chain with a lot of xp and good end rewards. everybody is going to want to play it and most will run it fast. if you want to avoid that style of play, put up lfm's for proof is in the poison, redfang, the depths, the swiped signet, the baudry series, kobold assult.. i guarentee less of the attitude that's bothering you because vets dont touch those quests. your dungeon crawling needs will be met.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon.
Here's your mistake:
When you go to join a group, you join a group of 4-5, instead of a group of ONE.

As long as you have more than one player, it's a group.

[Farens]

@ op

The answer to your problem is quite simple, find a guild, use your mic, insist that all ppl in the group use that mic or follow orders/advices.

This will bring you some quality time. Since "normally" guildies respect themselves, you should be able to form none-zerg groups.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

As many have said already ... you are grouping with many vets who have done these quests a million times and want to level their new toons up fast.

The DDO store has also introduced a problem ... XP pots ... these pots encourage us to get through quests as fast as possible.

There is no real solution ... you have two groups with 2 very different outlooks on the game.

My best advice is:

Setup the group ... make sure you put into the LFM that you are new and want to explore the dungeon. That statement will cause most Vets to role their eyes and move on to the next LFM.

Hope that helps. Good adventuring.

[Angelus_dead]

Its not a stigma; its a pain in the ass.
Right, the reason LFG is unpopular is because it lacks functionality, particularly support for the reality that it is players that look for groups and not characters.

A newb who only has one character so far might not notice that.

[Aumvaar]

It's not really your place to approve or disapprove.

Um, no: what you want to say is that it's not my place to impose my approval or disapproval on anyone else.

However, if I'm not trying to impose my belief on other people -- & I'm not -- then it's absolutely "my place" to state my opinion, which is that I disapprove of zerging, & thus won't group with people who want to zerg.

[Elsbet]

Um, no: what you want to say is that it's not my place to impose my approval or disapproval on anyone else.


Nope. Said what I meant.

[DANTEIL]

Right, the reason LFG is unpopular is because it lacks functionality, particularly support for the reality that it is players that look for groups and not characters.

A newb who only has one character so far might not notice that.

Explain this please. I don't understand this at all.

My impression is that, in principle, one could establish a LFM and then, while it is waiting to fill, look through the 'who' list, sort by those LFG, and invite those who meet the class/level needs, are in the same area, and whose notes indicate they are looking for the same kind of group. A LFG should be a kind of "open to invitations" marker, bypassing the rudeness of unsolicited invites.

[Aumvaar]

Nope. Said what I meant.

O, well, in that case: It's not your place to tell me what my place is.

[SquelchHU]

Say you have even two characters. One is high level, and one is mid level. That means that both say... VON, and the Shroud are relevant to your interests. If you look at the LFM page you can check on both and switch characters if needed. If you're flagging yourself LFG that only covers one of your characters at most.

Now imagine if you have many characters.

[Shamurai]

Well, that might be part of the problem. If you are too specific about how you want everyone to play THEIR character, it is often hard to fill the group. If you are asking for new players, no wonder you get a rogue who doesn't know how to do traps. One point you should consider is that STK may not be the right quest for lvl 4-5 new players. There are ambushes, doors which lock you in (until you kill everything), Encounters of 10 - 15 kobolds, all at once. Maybe you should stick to quests below level for a little while, then give STK a try when you get a bit higher.


I don't really try to get specific about "HOW" I want people to play their character. .GOD knows my son the monk gets killed x2 per quest (me and his Fighter friend keep track now) despite my "tips for survival". Buuut, I do try to state very clearly with the LFG and with my voice chat opening statement that (well for Faithy) that "I am not able to/ Can't fight", and that she is slower then molasses in her +3 platemail, so please just don't leave me in the dust because I can scarcely keep up with Wand/Scroll/ Pot costs let alone added repair when I get owned costs. Like I started I don't care so much about 'ransack, or conquest' bonuses. I want end rewards too. For some reason STK is the only place I've issues like "zergers" that don't respect my "no zerg" request. Faithy has run FINE in every other quests with random PUG people.. but someting about STK.. I just haven't found a group to "learn it" with, but no fears. I will find one eventually.

I've mostly been totally fine with PUG's on all my toons.. and Faithrune never waits long to find a group needing a pure healbot, that cares 0 for kill count but likes a huuge "saved xx party member" from death, count (which is a stat that I think should be listed ~ if only so I can tease my son about why his monk OWNS only because Faith allows him to). I'm just hoping to one day complete that series for Faith, cuz man.. that girls needs a ring of feather falling! HE HE

[Thrudh]

killed by the elemental.. there lies the difference between you and the players that rush ahead. an experienced, fast group wont even fight an elemental in stk until the end.

FYI... killing both elementals in STK takes about 30 extra seconds and gets you 700 bonus xp (in a 2.5k quest).

[Thrudh]

Explain this please. I don't understand this at all.

My impression is that, in principle, one could establish a LFM and then, while it is waiting to fill, look through the 'who' list, sort by those LFG, and invite those who meet the class/level needs, are in the same area, and whose notes indicate they are looking for the same kind of group. A LFG should be a kind of "open to invitations" marker, bypassing the rudeness of unsolicited invites.

Yes, but that's work... Broadcasting a LFM in one-click is very efficient... Then anyone who is interested in doing a quest can just check the LFM panel and ask to join...

Scrolling through the who list, sorted by LFG, and sending tells/invites to each one asking if they want to come is not as efficient...

[Varis]

I zerg ahead because I love nothing more then to have a huge, chaotic fight.
I zerg ahead because a "team players only" LFG gets me hot
I zerg ahead because your tears of frustration soothe my soul.

;)

[Thrudh]

Say you have even two characters. One is high level, and one is mid level. That means that both say... VON, and the Shroud are relevant to your interests. If you look at the LFM page you can check on both and switch characters if needed. If you're flagging yourself LFG that only covers one of your characters at most.

Now imagine if you have many characters.

Good point... LFM is superior because you can see what's available, and switch to another character to match the LFM... Say I have 5 characters, and I'm willing to play any of them... The LFG list can only show one of them... Someone may be looking for a cleric for an 8th level quest, and I may be willing to switch, but there's no way for them to know that by looking through the who panel, and checking the people marked LFG

[Arvess]

This is a game breaker IMO. Everyone has different experiences and goals when they all converge on a single quest. You can't make fast players slow down or slow players speed up. I used to get really discouraged with this game when I first started. What I did was made some semi self sufficient characters and found someone who didn't mind short manning quests and learned a whole lot about the quests...the side passages...the types of monsters that were in each one.

If it was tough, we'd get out a hireling to help. I keep hearing: 'we need a full party for this' but usually if you go back and play it a different way, 80% of the time, you'll get through it. And it'll be a ton of fun too. Find a friend or two and short-man quests.

Right now I'm soloing or shortmanning a New Invasion. I get my ass handed to me all the time but I learn about how the maze works and then i lead parties through there because i've taken the time to learn about it.

[maddmatt70]

Alot of people have glossed over one of the essential reasons for racing through a dungeon and that is they experience more of a rush. A major reason for why people play video games is it provides stimulation. If you speed up your pace through a dungeon your stimulation also increases.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

In my case, I just hate to stand around.

I've done the quests hundreds of times. I don't know every corner of all of them, but I know every corner of most of them.

Looking around is ok. But most dungeons don't even offer intersteing scenery....since they re-used most of the graphics.

I'll be happy to sneak, do all optionals. Break barrels, collect collectibles.... But I gotta do something.

I can't solo all of it. But I can certainly solo quite a few fights. And even though I quite often bite off more than I can chew, I have little fear of anything in the game.
(Elite traps are really my only fear)

I buff myself. Don't ask for any other than those required for survival....Fire Resist in a fire heavy quest for instance.

I like tactics, but all I need is a general idea what the party wants.

"You get agro, every one else block" Ok, let's go!

I'm all for letting the new guys lead and figure things out if they want....that's all fine.

But don't just stand around and debate things....let's go do something!

Sometimes I really don't understand what people are waiting for.

I have an inventory to play with too, but it's boring for me to watch you play with yours.

But if you want to slow down, and explore, that's ok.

Let me know if I'm going too fast.

Just don't expect me to sit back and do nothing.

(don't assume it's safe to follow me either. :) )

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Explain this please. I don't understand this at all.

My impression is that, in principle, one could establish a LFM and then, while it is waiting to fill, look through the 'who' list, sort by those LFG, and invite those who meet the class/level needs, are in the same area, and whose notes indicate they are looking for the same kind of group. A LFG should be a kind of "open to invitations" marker, bypassing the rudeness of unsolicited invites.

I have 10 characters. I'm only on 1 at a time. Seeing my L19 cleric won't help you at all when you are filling a L5 group because you don't know about my L4 Barbarian or my L6 FvS.

If you post an LFM saying the quest name and a comment about "going slow, no spoilers" then if I'm interested I can log on to an appropariate character and join you.

[DANTEIL]

I have 10 characters. I'm only on 1 at a time. Seeing my L19 cleric won't help you at all when you are filling a L5 group because you don't know about my L4 Barbarian or my L6 FvS.


Okay I understand better now, but in the situation you described, nothing is stopping you from continuing to search the LFMs posted like you always do. You are right that I won't know about your L4 barbarian, but that's no different from the way things are now, with people ignoring/not using the LFG option altogether, right? It just seems that if the LFG option were actually utilized (and I do understand about the interface/searching problems), there would be that much more opportunity for mutually-satisfactory matches between groups. Coming in as a completely new player, it just seems like one of those cultural blockages that has grown up within the existing vet community that makes little sense to me.

[BahMee1]

Its much better to retain the players you played with that knew their roles as friends. I know at higher levels and higher difficulties I am not gonna run off into the darkness to be eaten by minotaur shamans' fireballs :D. For some reason I seem to have good luck with players that played their roles and successfully were team players, but it could be because I'm now at high enough levels for teamwork to matter that much more. We learn to coordinate at the big boss fights since they usually take everyones skills to defeat the boss. I play as a fighter so I try to think about how to keep monsters and casters off the other players, and not where I should run to get the most kills.

I understand the OPs frustration because a zerger is not interested in the group obviously but their own agenda, that in itself will alienate the said player from the team. What is funny to me is the zergers I have seen in my experiences are the most squishy characters. I saw one guy die like 4 times in a row running ahead and getting cloud killed by arcanes, we tried to explain to not go into the cloud and stick to the group but he did it again then quit without saying anything and we were all boggled to say the least. I'm not sure why some people do what they do but I think it has to do with soloing and thinking your good enough on your own to not need others as backup. I don't know :D I am a pretty good fighter but bless those clerics for keepin my arse alive long enough to take out the elite mob of skeleton warriors and zombies comin at us UGH! Stick together!

I don't really understand the whole been there done that attitude, I hate soloing and even if I did the quest 10 times, I try to stay with the group. I have said it before but D&D is a team oriented game, sure you can have solo games even on pen and paper, but its like a movie. Is an action movie better with one major character and a bunch of bad guys, or is the movie better with a dynamic cast of heroes against a bunch of bad guys? I personally choose the dynamic cast over the one guy. :D

I have to say, there are alot of great team players in this game don't give up! I love the feeling of a tight group, it makes me come back everyday. SO try as hard as you can to keep the players you enjoy playing with on your friends list, if you have not grouped with them for a while, say hi in a tell now or then. When you get to high enough levels, this should not be an issue anymore.

'Inthanus' :D

[KillEveryone]

I think that the LFM could be made better to accomidate those that want slow play, fast play, etc...

I have found that sometimes there is not enough room to type what I am looking for so I don't really know if I get my point accross.

Instead of having a box to type, do selector boxes similar to the class selector boxes. Have some for fast play, new player, guide needed and such.

[KillEveryone]

...

But don't just stand around and debate things....let's go do something!

...


Just let me heal the group before we get aggro on another mob, otherwise, I won't be able to keep up.

[skarwolf]

In my case, I just hate to stand around.

I've done the quests hundreds of times. I don't know every corner of all of them, but I know every corner of most of them.

Looking around is ok. But most dungeons don't even offer intersteing scenery....since they re-used most of the graphics.

I'll be happy to sneak, do all optionals. Break barrels, collect collectibles.... But I gotta do something.

I can't solo all of it. But I can certainly solo quite a few fights. And even though I quite often bite off more than I can chew, I have little fear of anything in the game.
(Elite traps are really my only fear)

I buff myself. Don't ask for any other than those required for survival....Fire Resist in a fire heavy quest for instance.

I like tactics, but all I need is a general idea what the party wants.

"You get agro, every one else block" Ok, let's go!

I'm all for letting the new guys lead and figure things out if they want....that's all fine.

But don't just stand around and debate things....let's go do something!

Sometimes I really don't understand what people are waiting for.

I have an inventory to play with too, but it's boring for me to watch you play with yours.

But if you want to slow down, and explore, that's ok.

Let me know if I'm going too fast.

Just don't expect me to sit back and do nothing.

(don't assume it's safe to follow me either. :) )

Yeah I agree most of the dungeons I've experienced so far are nothing more then different colored sewers so theres not much to look at. However if I want to learn whats going on its hard to do that while chasing your group down when they take off at light speed using barbarian sprint :P Shan To Kor offered some variation with the neat shroom passage and underground hobgoblin village.

In WOW if I was redoing a dungeon I knew like the back of my hand I still didn't run ahead of everyone. I stuck with the group and explained what happened here and there and what to do. Not take off on everyone and try to solo the place. Why join a group if you plan on doing that ? I was asked to join on my cleric and spent most of the time trying to keep up until i got fed up and said if you take off you're not getting healed.

[whysper]

..., so please just don't leave me in the dust because I can scarcely keep up with Wand/Scroll/ Pot costs let alone added repair when I get owned costs.

Stop using wands, scrolls and potions. I know it sounds like glib advice but it is not. Just stop doing it, and behold the transformation.

[Yurtrus]

Hey I am a vet, been here since day 1. I don't zerg. I enjoy the dungeon, the slayer, the colors, the graphics, the design of everything that went into the game by the devs. I do happen to hate air elementals though ;)

Zerging is part of the game in areas that you know nothing is going to happen, zerging the entire dungeon might be the way people wanna play the game..*(usually the people complaining there is lack of content ) Sometimes I just play the game and don't even think about "what if someone wants to smell the mildew" cause I am just used to doing certain things in a dungeon. However, no one has ever said" Hey can we slow down", not that i mind it. Personally I wish more people would say, " Hey can we go a bit slower? I feel like i am being dragged through this place" cause that is exactly how I felt coming through the ranks a long time ago.

If you feel like smelling the mildew and don't want to ZERG, but feel even the normal game play is too fast, you are either going to have to find a guild that plays that way or form your own groups. I go pretty slow since I am usually alone or with one other person on most quests. But I still find myself moving along at a decent pace.

[Stabsy]

Just an observation:

Almost anyone can keep up if you just pay attention to the others and do nothing else. Don't fight don't heal, don't go off smashing crates.

I realise that isn't a particularly fun way to experience a new dungeon but it sometimes seems to me that people either don't know this or are too stubborn to adapt.

By all means try to select like-minded people but if you're in pugs you don't have to get lost miles behind everyone else if you solely focus on keeping up.

If you're not sure who to follow pick the one who seems most veteran (twinked, guilded, playing a pay-for race/class are good indications).

It does puzzle me that people choose to stay back smashing crates while everyone else rushes off then get unhappy that people didn't wait. You saw them go, you chose to not go with them, then you complain you're lost? Heh.

Another tip is that movement boosts really help. If you feel very stuck try out a Barb. 10% base move bonus, 5 sprints per day enhancement and 2/day Expeditious Retreat from Anger's Set boots will make your life much easier if your main problem is keeping up with people.

Oh and a tip for new clerics: after you've got your set from korthos go do Sacrifices a few more times to get some Anger's Set boots. Being able to Expeditious Retreat 4/rest will help you keep up a lot.

[Gremmlynn]

Just an observation:

Almost anyone can keep up if you just pay attention to the others and do nothing else. Don't fight don't heal, don't go off smashing crates.

I realise that isn't a particularly fun way to experience a new dungeon but it sometimes seems to me that people either don't know this or are too stubborn to adapt.

By all means try to select like-minded people but if you're in pugs you don't have to get lost miles behind everyone else if you solely focus on keeping up.

If you're not sure who to follow pick the one who seems most veteran (twinked, guilded, playing a pay-for race/class are good indications).

It does puzzle me that people choose to stay back smashing crates while everyone else rushes off then get unhappy that people didn't wait. You saw them go, you chose to not go with them, then you complain you're lost? Heh.

Another tip is that movement boosts really help. If you feel very stuck try out a Barb. 10% base move bonus, 5 sprints per day enhancement and 2/day Expeditious Retreat from Anger's Set boots will make your life much easier if your main problem is keeping up with people.

Oh and a tip for new clerics: after you've got your set from korthos go do Sacrifices a few more times to get some Anger's Set boots. Being able to Expeditious Retreat 4/rest will help you keep up a lot.My question here is:
If just trying to keep up with the rest of the party is all that I'm doing in-game, why did I bother logging in at all?

I find recall/leave party to be a better solution in this situation. They obviously don't need me and I get no entertainment out of looking at thier asses speeding off in the distance so it seems this would work out for everyone.

[HamHamJ]

I don't really care about keeping moving in dungeons as long as people aren't running head long into traps and stuff or it's actively threatening a party wipe.

What I do care about is joining a group that doesn't say in progress and by the time you get into the instance most of the group is halfway to the end.

[Junts]

I don't really care about keeping moving in dungeons as long as people aren't running head long into traps and stuff or it's actively threatening a party wipe.

What I do care about is joining a group that doesn't say in progress and by the time you get into the instance most of the group is halfway to the end.


IP warnings are only appriopriate if the instance is 10 minutes old and you will recieve an exp penalty; if its not, you're not entitled to one.

[RangerOne]

This was a major aggravation to be on my first party adventure in, of all things, Heyton's Rest. The guy rushed off and all I saw was sarcophagus pieces flying while I adjusted my gamma settings.

Since then I've developed a simple one question test for this: "The door opens. What do you do?" Anybody who says they rush in, I don't group with. The only exception is if I just want the favor and the loot. Let them take the hit and I'll waltz up to the chest after most of them are dead.

[HamHamJ]

IP warnings are only appriopriate if the instance is 10 minutes old and you will recieve an exp penalty; if its not, you're not entitled to one.

My point is that I think you should at least wait for everyone to get to the entrance and zone in before zerging off into the dungeon.

[Junts]

My point is that I think you should at least wait for everyone to get to the entrance and zone in before zerging off into the dungeon.

Look at the lfm; if people are outside the instance, then they aren't doing anything; if you see names inside, you should assume peopel are already doing something unless they specifically say 'hey,. waiting on you'

[HamHamJ]

Look at the lfm; if people are outside the instance, then they aren't doing anything; if you see names inside, you should assume peopel are already doing something unless they specifically say 'hey,. waiting on you'

Not what I'm talking about. I can think of at least a couple of times where everyone was in harbor and then by the time I ran across the harbor to the entrance, went through the loading screen, and got in half the group was off somewhere in the quest.

[ZeroStatic]

If it was tough, we'd get out a hireling to help. I keep hearing: 'we need a full party for this' but usually if you go back and play it a different way, 80% of the time, you'll get through it. And it'll be a ton of fun too. Find a friend or two and short-man quests.

Right now I'm soloing or shortmanning a New Invasion. I get my ass handed to me all the time but I learn about how the maze works and then i lead parties through there because i've taken the time to learn about it.

General rule of thumb: Shortmanning quests tends to be easier compared to full party questing, due to the average suck of teamplay in a full party PUG as opposed to the epic upscaling of dungeon difficulty. (Of course this is dependent on what kind of groups the player gets into, and some level ranges might host more ''team oriented'' players than other ranges)

Also, people always say ''we need full party for this '' ''we might need another cleric'' (most frequent example for me would be tempest spine xd) But that's most likely due to past experiences in which they had a full group that failed at one point or another.

[Stabsy]

My question here is:
If just trying to keep up with the rest of the party is all that I'm doing in-game, why did I bother logging in at all?

I find recall/leave party to be a better solution in this situation. They obviously don't need me and I get no entertainment out of looking at thier asses speeding off in the distance so it seems this would work out for everyone.

Recalling out and dropping group is fine. Staying in the dungeon near the front and doing nothing then getting annoyed about it isn't fine, either for you or for the people you're getting annoyed with.

I'm just saying you don't have to get left behind. You can, you know, stay with the group. The group you joined to do the instance with. In this group game.

From there you can either identify who is a zerger and who seems like they'd rather go slow and make connections to people who suit your playstyle or you can adapt your playstyle to a faster paced group.

In the long term, depending on just how slow you mean when you say slow, you may find it hard to find compatible people. Most people simply don't want to break every barrel.

However it is a group game and you can identify compatible people if you try. The server forums are great for this. There are guilds that encourage slower more considerate play. You can discuss it in chat and find like-minded people.

It is a solvable problem if you put your ingenuity and social skills to it.

It's not however something that you will change by posting that you don't like it. I am sympthetic but if you were in my group and you told me I was going too fast I'd suggest you drop group and make a new No Zerg group. I can appreciate that people don't like to have a playstyle imposed upon them but I'm just as opposed to you slowbies imposing your playstyle on me :-)

I imagine later in the game the game mechanics themselves will pull us closer together. If mobs and traps one-shot you then people will stop running off after a few learning experience deaths. As levels start to take longer we'll be repeating content more so you Explorer types won't have to take quite so long admiring the scenery once you've seen an instance 50 times.

Anyway good luck and I hope you find a solution that suits you. For some of the slow players out there that solution may be adjusting to play faster. I wasn't suggesting that it's required for everyone.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just let me heal the group before we get aggro on another mob, otherwise, I won't be able to keep up.

LOL.
That's why I hate playing my cleric. :)

And it amazes me that people will run off with single digit HP, with not a care in the world.

Try not to worry about them....they'll either wait for you to heal them, or wait for you to take their stones to the shrine. :D

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yeah I agree most of the dungeons I've experienced so far are nothing more then different colored sewers so theres not much to look at. However if I want to learn whats going on its hard to do that while chasing your group down when they take off at light speed using barbarian sprint :P Shan To Kor offered some variation with the neat shroom passage and underground hobgoblin village.

In WOW if I was redoing a dungeon I knew like the back of my hand I still didn't run ahead of everyone. I stuck with the group and explained what happened here and there and what to do. Not take off on everyone and try to solo the place. Why join a group if you plan on doing that ? I was asked to join on my cleric and spent most of the time trying to keep up until i got fed up and said if you take off you're not getting healed.

A lot of the newer dungeons have better scenery.
But all the Harbor and older Market dungeons look alike. And those are the dungeons I've literally done hundreds of times.

I'm not one to hurry to the end. I'd rather be in a dungeon than waiting outside for the next group to fill.
I enjoy playing through the dungeon, and don't care how long it takes. (usually)

But I hate to stand around.....I get bored.

And I'm just comfortible at a higher speed. In STK for instance, I know exactly where every monster is. I know where every trap is.

I can run right up to the next fight, and then stop right before a monster see me and sneak by him, or charm his friend, or whatever tactics I want to use.

For me, it's not really a race. It's just anxious to get to the action. And no fear of most fights. Not to say I don't die on many occasions. lol. But even my squishiest chars don't die easily.

I'm perfectly willing to slow down though....just not stand still.

[Gremmlynn]

Recalling out and dropping group is fine. Staying in the dungeon near the front and doing nothing then getting annoyed about it isn't fine, either for you or for the people you're getting annoyed with.

I'm just saying you don't have to get left behind. You can, you know, stay with the group. The group you joined to do the instance with. In this group game.

From there you can either identify who is a zerger and who seems like they'd rather go slow and make connections to people who suit your playstyle or you can adapt your playstyle to a faster paced group.

In the long term, depending on just how slow you mean when you say slow, you may find it hard to find compatible people. Most people simply don't want to break every barrel.

However it is a group game and you can identify compatible people if you try. The server forums are great for this. There are guilds that encourage slower more considerate play. You can discuss it in chat and find like-minded people.

It is a solvable problem if you put your ingenuity and social skills to it.

It's not however something that you will change by posting that you don't like it. I am sympthetic but if you were in my group and you told me I was going too fast I'd suggest you drop group and make a new No Zerg group. I can appreciate that people don't like to have a playstyle imposed upon them but I'm just as opposed to you slowbies imposing your playstyle on me :-)

I imagine later in the game the game mechanics themselves will pull us closer together. If mobs and traps one-shot you then people will stop running off after a few learning experience deaths. As levels start to take longer we'll be repeating content more so you Explorer types won't have to take quite so long admiring the scenery once you've seen an instance 50 times.

Anyway good luck and I hope you find a solution that suits you. For some of the slow players out there that solution may be adjusting to play faster. I wasn't suggesting that it's required for everyone.Well thank you for being so consiterate of us explorer types. *** does needing multiple speed buffs just to keep up with the party have to do with someone being an explorer type? Also, I doubt I'll be playing once the game gets so thin on content I have to start repeating it to advance to the next batch of content since the content is all this game really has going for it.

[SquelchHU]

Funny thing? I don't break barrels. Yet in the zerg groups, it's still all I can do just to keep up, even though all I'm doing is watching them. And you know what? Lose sight for one second in a multi level or no map area, and you'll be lost for the rest of the dungeon.

How about no?

[skarwolf]

You know how when you die and someone has your soulstone you can't go too far from the person carrying your soulstone.

It would be comical if they added an option for the group leader to employ some form of control like this to prevent rabig zerg mongers from running off in different directions trying to show off and solo the instance.

I can just imagine them running off the opposite direction because hey, theres some random boss they know of and want to show off by trying to solo it when "You are too far from the party" POP they're back at the party. *** mmrrrrhhhhh must run off by myself urrrrr tries again... POP. Back at the party again.

Hey, one step better when they attempt it more then three times they just explode. Dead. Then get automatically booted from the group and cannot join another group for 24 hours.

There I've solved the problem. No need for thanks.

[magsol]

I actually like this idea!

I enjoy slow dungeon crawl, and I enjoy the team work. I consider players who zerg without permission (explicitly stated in the LFM) as rude. This is improper. If you want to zerg alone, then you don't need a group with you.

I don't enjoy racing a quest, and I am not willing to do so. Unfortunately, sometimes, even after posting: "SLOW Dungeon CRAWL, team oriented players, no ZERG!", I still get racers who ignore the party. In this case I would love to have the option to just remove the player from the group. The leader should have this ability, and in this case the removed player should be kicked from the dungeon.

Still, there are many many players who like to go slow, and I am happy to find a lot of like minded players. And to all the so called vets, being a vet is not an excuse to being an xxx. If you consider yourself a vet, take a second to coordinate your expectations before entering the dungeon, and I don't care at all if you did it 10000 times. It's my first, and I am going to ENJOY it.

BTW, even if I am not questing for the first time, I still enjoy working in a team, rogue first, bard buffs etc etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Magsol, lvl 9 wiz.

[Mercules]

Also, people frequently forget that sometimes people have time constraints. If I'm leveling my lv 7 char and I join your stormcleave outpost LFM, knowing the quest takes 30-35 minutes and I have 40 before I have to leave for class, only to grab my house p buffs and enter and find that you are taking absolutely for-freakin-ever to get into the quest in the first place, chances are pretty high that I'm going to go start on the quest because I have my own time limit to deal with and your lfm didn't say "slow play, learning quest", as I wouldn't have joined it if it did.

I'm not going to apologise for those kind of situations, because there's no advertising of your playstyle, and you're imposing your style on me as much as vice-versa when it's unclear. I came for my 9k exp, and I'm going to go get it whether you choose to spend 15 minutes staring at the questgiver or not, because I'm not missing my class to satisfy your obscure need to have everyone in visual distance of each other at all times.

If you can solo the quest... which you are if you are starting without the party... just solo the quest. It saves you, and them, the headache.


Well, that might be part of the problem. If you are too specific about how you want everyone to play THEIR character, it is often hard to fill the group. That didn't sound like he was being too specific on how others play their characters other than, "Don't die while I am out of range."




IP warnings are only appriopriate if the instance is 10 minutes old and you will recieve an exp penalty; if its not, you're not entitled to one.

IP warnings are appropriate if the quest is, "In Progress" which means you entered and agro'd mobs. You think it isn't because your focus is XP. Not everyone's focus is XP. Some people came to play the game and new players actually like to look around the quest even after a couple times through it. Walking into an empty dungeon and a minute later having it just complete is a real letdown for new players or even old players that wanted to see how that new character performed in the quest.

[KillEveryone]

I just need to say something to the barrel breakers.

If the party says don't break a particualr barrel because it will release a fire elemental and we are not ready yet, DON"T BREAK THAT BARREL AND RELEASE THE FIRE ELEMENTAL!

[MrWizard]

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time and get into a group. It seems like a race to get through the dungeon. People run ahead and rush everything like its a frikkin race. Every single group I join seems to be the same like its a race to finish the dungeon fast.

I tried Shantokor a few times on my cleric using a hireling and could only get so far before dying to the elemental. Join a group and they're constantly running out of range most of the time I'm looking at the map to see where the group blue arrows are.

What started this mind set ? Other games if you did something like this you quickly got booted from whatever group you were in especially running off aggroing and dying.

Have not read the thread, but I am sure it covers everything.
Just remember to start or join a group of new people. As you level you will find more and more new people that are leveling with you. Stay with them and explore.

Most people have done the dungeon you are running in many times, even if they are fairly new. Vets (like myself) just do it to get the favor and fast xp to get to high level. We don't even see the roses much less stop to smell them.

Just post in the forums for people on your server who want to slowly explore and enjoy...and post that in an LFM that you start.

Many veterans, even me, will sometimes just join a new persons group to help out but not spoil it.

[shrades72]

I think running quests for the very first time with a random PUG is generally a bad idea. If you can find even one other like minded player, go short-man it with him/her and two hirelings. 6 people is total overkill for most quests, especially at low levels...

This will also force you to completely learn the quest yourself since you'll have no one to guide you. It may take a couple of tries, but once you finally beat the quest you'll know it cold.

Random pugging works best for blowing through quests you already know as quickly as possible for fast xp and favor...

[DirkSJ]

In WOW if I was redoing a dungeon I knew like the back of my hand I still didn't run ahead of everyone. I stuck with the group and explained what happened here and there and what to do. Not take off on everyone and try to solo the place. Why join a group if you plan on doing that ? I was asked to join on my cleric and spent most of the time trying to keep up until i got fed up and said if you take off you're not getting healed.
WOW punishes you more severely for rushing and for acting alone. Unless you are running way below your level, and unless the tank is the one pulling and the healer is ready...you are probably just going to die.

The tank sets the pace and if they go faster than the healer is ready for...you all die. If the DPS rush ahead alone...they die. End of story.

DDO doesn't punish harshly enough. You shouldn't be able to run ahead or rush or split off. You should die, and quickly, every time. Most MMOs work this way. This is called good MMO design. We can hope DDO will move toward this in non-solo/normal modes. If you want rush/solo play you should be in normal/solo modes.

DnD's new mantra on the PnP site is "Never split the party" and this should be retroactively reinforced.

Addendum: Why is it good MMO design? What keeps people playing an MMO is people. A theme, graphics, content, etc get you in the door and contributes a bit but at the end of the day the reason people stay and keep playing is their friends.

There are two primary methods for making these friends: guilds and groups. Usually (but not always) grouping is what leads you to a guild especially for new players. If the game reinforces little to no interaction between group members, splitting up a lot, and rushing as fast as possible assuming every newbie knows exactly what to do...you lose the group->guild dynamic for most new folks.

This isn't a fault of the players. It is perfectly normal and right that a player that has done a quest 50 times doesn't want to smell the roses any more and will look to optimize for time as much as possible. It's the GAME'S fault that it lets that person just rush off and ignore their party except for 1-2 small areas they need the other people for.

The player should be able to optimize for time in ways that don't break the intent of the entire group system from the MMO developers perspective: to force player interaction in order to increase player retention.

[Junts]

WOW punishes you more severely for rushing and for acting alone. Unless you are running way below your level, and unless the tank is the one pulling and the healer is ready...you are probably just going to die.

The tank sets the pace and if they go faster than the healer is ready for you all die. If the DPS rush ahead alone they die. End of story.

DDO doesn't punish harshly enough. You shouldn't be able to run ahead or rush or split off. You should die, and quickly, every time. Most MMOs work this way. This is called good MMO design. We can hope DDO will move toward this in non-solo/normal modes. If you want rush/solo play you should be in normal/solo modes.

DnD's new mantra on the PnP site is "Never split the party" and this should be retroactively reinforced.

Addendum: Why is it good MMO design? What keeps people playing an MMO is people. A theme, graphics, content, etc get you in the door and contributes a bit but at the end of the day the reason people stay and keep playing is their friends.

There are two primary methods for making these friends: guilds and groups. Usually (but not always) grouping is what leads you to a guild especially for new players. If the game reinforces little to no interaction between group members, splitting up a lot, and rushing as fast as possible assuming every newbie knows exactly what to do...you lose the group->guild dynamic for most new folks.

This isn't a fault of the players. It is perfectly normal and right that a player that has done a quest 50 times doesn't want to smell the roses any more and will look to optimize for time as much as possible. It's the GAME'S fault that it lets that person just rush off and ignore their party except for 1-2 small areas they need the other people for.

The player should be able to optimize for time in ways that doesn't break the intent of the group from the MMO developers perspective: to force player interaction in order to increase player retention.

The self-sufficiency and flexibility of character builds capable of filling multiple roles and doing quests without assigned roles in the party (eg without a dedicated tank or healer, or with only dedicated tanks or only healers, for that matter) are a huge strength of DDO and a big reason most of us play it and not another MMO.

I do not want to have to find a cleric, an ac build and some dps for every instance .. the fact that a monk, a barb and a ranger can 3 man any quest in the game if played and build properly, and that 2 clerics and a bard can do the same thing, is a huge part of what I enjoy about DDO.

The outgrowth of this is the behavior you discuss at low levels, when equipment is more important and can overshadow the variations in character build so completely; the real problem with low level content on DDO is that the best equipment for a given level is found in quests 3-4 levels higher (eg, you want the best lv 2 weapons in ddo, they will drop at level 5-6, not at level 2 or 3), and so twinked characters are factors of 3 and 4 better than untwinked ones.

At higher levels, that run past it/drop it in the pit/ gather it up and aoe it/tank it/etc are all viable tactics to do the same quests is a huge perk, because it cuts down on needing specific party roles and lets well-designed charactesr of any class combination group for almost anything; people have completed the hardest raids in the game in short man groups and in groups completely lacking certain party roles (no clerics or favored souls. or all clerics, or all monks, or all rogues, or no rogues, or no one with any ac, or..you get the point, for example).

[DirkSJ]

The self-sufficiency and flexibility of character builds capable of filling multiple roles and doing quests without assigned roles in the party (eg without a dedicated tank or healer, or with only dedicated tanks or only healers, for that matter) are a huge strength of DDO and a big reason most of us play it and not another MMO.

I do not want to have to find a cleric, an ac build and some dps for every instance .. the fact that a monk, a barb and a ranger can 3 man any quest in the game if played and build properly, and that 2 clerics and a bard can do the same thing, is a huge part of what I enjoy about DDO.
I'm not saying it's not something that many vets don't value. I am saying it's bad design.

DDO's model is a proven failure as a subscription-based MMO. It did not attract and retain enough players. One of the reasons (of which I am sure there are others) is that tight player interaction is not forced.

Will F2P add enough artificial retention to make up for this design flaw? Who knows. But moving towards a more standard model can only help.

[Stabsy]

Ah but Dirk, you're saying MMOs should be about grouping and not enforcing this with punitively powerful design features is bad design.

The most successful MMO ever took the EQ model and added in solo-friendliness. So people could solo, do stuff in small groups, do stuff intended for small groups alone by playing out of their skin and group up for 5 - 15 man instances and 40 man raids that enforced grouping in the way you suggest. That was WoW in 2005. (It's a very different game now).

Its key feature and its most innovative feature was flexibility in team size. You could play alone, you could play in small groups, you could play in big groups.

If you look at WoW as a whole instead of just the dungeons WoW very much supports fast twinked playstyles.

Regarding DDO it seems to me that to a large extent zerging is a low level issue and particularly a twink issue. If you go into a level 3 dungeon in any MMO with twinks they'll probably zerg. But you're judging a game on its low level content which for most people is very transient. You can just level out of this playstyle you abhorr.

It's probably possible to build a character who has significantly improved movement speed and kills so fast that even on same-level Elites he can run ahead, pause to kill, then run off further before slower players can catch up.

I've never seen this and I'm not sure it's even possible.

What I am seeing is people who play very slowly getting left behind. They join a group then spend 5 minutes sorting out their bank. They stop at secret doors that everyone else has run past and Search ten times. They miss a chest then spend 10 minutes looking for it while the rest of the group clears the instance.

These are choices. You choose to not play with your group but do your own thing.

But anyone has several options:
1) pug with people who play your way
2) keep up. Get some Expeditious Retreat boots if you have to but just keep up. I have never met anyone I simply can't keep up with on any character even with zero +run speed.
3) solo/small team stuff

People play fast because we love it. It's exciting and satisfying to play fast. Most people I've met, who some of you would call zergers I find too slow for my tastes.

Imposing your playstyle on everyone else and calling it good design is just not valid. If you think it is valid borrow $200 million and make a WoW-killer then laugh at us from one of your many champagne-filled swimming pools. Personally I think if you enforce conformity in what people choose to play for leisure you will have a dud MMO. And I think the everyone stand around doing nothing while some dude plays around with his inventory for 5 minutes is the pits of online gaming. More selfish play by far than people who rush off and kill stuff they believe they can handle.

[HamHamJ]

I'm not saying it's not something that many vets don't value. I am saying it's bad design.

DDO's model is a proven failure as a subscription-based MMO. It did not attract and retain enough players. One of the reasons (of which I am sure there are others) is that tight player interaction is not forced.

Will F2P add enough artificial retention to make up for this design flaw? Who knows. But moving towards a more standard model can only help.

No. The fact that DDO plays like DnD and not like every other MMO ever is the only thing that makes this game remotely worthwhile. What problems it had were probably caused by lack of content and polish at launch. Things they have mostly fixed since then.

[Suitcase]

If you have "No Zerg" and someone zergs, leave the instance, re-enter the instance a few times. After you rack up a 60% or more xp loss just stay outside. Be sure to point it out in party chat. They'll probably leave group. 99% of zergers will rush do it from the get go. They aren't going to wait until the zone is 85% complete and fool you for the last 15%. Hoodwinking isn't why they zerg. XP is.

I understand this is mean. If you have posted "no zerg" in the LFM then it is the zerg player(s) who broke decorum.

[parvo]

Your first five or so builds are going to be gimpola anyway so you might as well have fun with them. Play permadeath for a while then if it isn't for you, go back to zergoland.

[DirkSJ]

Ah but Dirk, you're saying MMOs should be about grouping and not enforcing this with punitively powerful design features is bad design.

The most successful MMO ever took the EQ model and added in solo-friendliness. So people could solo, do stuff in small groups, do stuff intended for small groups alone by playing out of their skin and group up for 5 - 15 man instances and 40 man raids that enforced grouping in the way you suggest. That was WoW in 2005. (It's a very different game now).

Its key feature and its most innovative feature was flexibility in team size. You could play alone, you could play in small groups, you could play in big groups.

If you look at WoW as a whole instead of just the dungeons WoW very much supports fast twinked playstyles.
You are correct but only in a very specific way. WoW leveling made two huge changes over EQ1:
- Quests were a way to level, not just stand around and kill things in one place for days (or at least obfuscate the fact that you were standing around killing things for days or make you walk around a bit and kill DIFFERENT things for days).
- You could solo to level all the way up to max but you could not get very good gear this way.

WoW does not reinforce a "join a group and then ignore/frustrate them" mechanic as DDO does. You mostly just play solo until you reach max level. All characters, even pure healers, can quickly level this way to max without much difficulty. The "game" starts at max level. The best and fastest way to level is to never go in a single dungeon, just solo all the way.

If you want to smell some roses and get some gear at mid levels you have to basically mimic what happens at max level. Your party is mostly the same and you do mostly the same things. The exception is if you have a big bad max level person just kill everything and you loot and get no exp. But if you go in at equal level to the dungeon...you are going to be mimicking max level play for the most part. Tank, healer, 3dps, no one runs off alone, tank pulls, dps kills, healer heals, rinse, repeat.

In DDO you can make what is a perfectly useful and awesome character for the end game that cannot in any way solo effectively. You can respec many things but not everything. If you are going to make "good" characters not be very solo viable and push people to group then those groups should be true group-like experiences...not rush-fests where everyone runs off by themselves.

Perhaps the real issue is this: The best exp and gear is in these groups. People will thus want to be in these and will be subject to these twink related problems. Simple solution: Leave the best gear in these groups. Move the best exp to solo play. Make sure solo play is playable by all character types.


People play fast because we love it. It's exciting and satisfying to play fast. Most people I've met, who some of you would call zergers I find too slow for my tastes.

Imposing your playstyle on everyone else and calling it good design is just not valid.
I'm not saying playing fast is bad. I love to play fast in MMOs. That playing fast should require that the party stays together and uses teamwork, however. For example, you should have to explain to a new person that doesn't know how to do a certain part what they will need to do. And they should have to do it or the party should fail. You should play fast together, not alone.

MMO's are designed to push people together to make friends so they keep playing. It has nothing to do with playstyle. Mechanics encouraging people to group and then abandon and frustrate other players works directly against that and is therefore bad design.

[HamHamJ]

You are correct but only in a very specific way. WoW leveling made two huge changes over EQ1:
- Quests were a way to level, not just stand around and kill things in one place for days (or at least obfuscate the fact that you were standing around killing things for days or make you walk around a bit and kill DIFFERENT things for days).
- You could solo to level all the way up to max but you could not get very good gear this way.

WoW does not reinforce a "join a group and then ignore/frustrate them" mechanic as DDO does. You mostly just play solo until you reach max level. All characters, even pure healers, can quickly level this way to max without much difficulty. The "game" starts at max level. The best and fastest way to level is to never go in a single dungeon, just solo all the way.

If you want to smell some roses and get some gear at mid levels you have to basically mimic what happens at max level. Your party is mostly the same and you do mostly the same things. The exception is if you have a big bad max level person just kill everything and you loot and get no exp. But if you go in at equal level to the dungeon...you are going to be mimicking max level play for the most part. Tank, healer, 3dps, no one runs off alone, tank pulls, dps kills, healer heals, rinse, repeat.

In DDO you can make what is a perfectly useful and awesome character for the end game that cannot in any way solo effectively. You can respec many things but not everything. If you are going to make "good" characters not be very solo viable and push people to group then those groups should be true group-like experiences...not rush-fests where everyone runs off by themselves.

Perhaps the real issue is this: The best exp and gear is in these groups. People will thus want to be in these and will be subject to these twink related problems. Simple solution: Leave the best gear in these groups. Move the best exp to solo play. Make sure solo play is playable by all character types.

This is a terrible system though. The system we have right now is far better.

[dormetheus]

I sympathize with the OP because STK is the first quest where dungeon/map layers become a REAL issue for a noob, and finding your own way can be very confusing. Hell, I still get lost/turned around in there sometimes.

Something that might help you (helped me a bit) in the early levels--I didn't start to really feel that I "knew" the quest until I rolled a rogue. People won't necessarily wait for you to disarm the traps, etc., but you do get to see a bit more of the dungeon (rather than a left-behind, near immobile cleric) AND people seem more willing to "guide" a rogue.

Just make sure you can do the traps, DPS, and not get killed.


Also, if you specifically want to avoid zergers, don't group with barbs. I LOVE barbs (and I'm not really a zerger), BUT you have to understand that their runspeed and their rage timer just has a built-in zerg mentality.

Everything else has probably been said ad naseum.

There is one thing to be said about wanting a steady, yet manageable pace through a new dungeon, HOWEVER there is another thing to be said about groups that stop and do absolutely nothing for no real reason (usually they're waiting for directions).

[Junts]

You are correct but only in a very specific way. WoW leveling made two huge changes over EQ1:
- Quests were a way to level, not just stand around and kill things in one place for days (or at least obfuscate the fact that you were standing around killing things for days or make you walk around a bit and kill DIFFERENT things for days).
- You could solo to level all the way up to max but you could not get very good gear this way.

WoW does not reinforce a "join a group and then ignore/frustrate them" mechanic as DDO does. You mostly just play solo until you reach max level. All characters, even pure healers, can quickly level this way to max without much difficulty. The "game" starts at max level. The best and fastest way to level is to never go in a single dungeon, just solo all the way.

If you want to smell some roses and get some gear at mid levels you have to basically mimic what happens at max level. Your party is mostly the same and you do mostly the same things. The exception is if you have a big bad max level person just kill everything and you loot and get no exp. But if you go in at equal level to the dungeon...you are going to be mimicking max level play for the most part. Tank, healer, 3dps, no one runs off alone, tank pulls, dps kills, healer heals, rinse, repeat.

In DDO you can make what is a perfectly useful and awesome character for the end game that cannot in any way solo effectively. You can respec many things but not everything. If you are going to make "good" characters not be very solo viable and push people to group then those groups should be true group-like experiences...not rush-fests where everyone runs off by themselves.

Perhaps the real issue is this: The best exp and gear is in these groups. People will thus want to be in these and will be subject to these twink related problems. Simple solution: Leave the best gear in these groups. Move the best exp to solo play. Make sure solo play is playable by all character types.


I'm not saying playing fast is bad. I love to play fast in MMOs. That playing fast should require that the party stays together and uses teamwork, however. For example, you should have to explain to a new person that doesn't know how to do a certain part what they will need to do. And they should have to do it or the party should fail. You should play fast together, not alone.

MMO's are designed to push people together to make friends so they keep playing. It has nothing to do with playstyle. Mechanics encouraging people to group and then abandon and frustrate other players works directly against that and is therefore bad design.

I'm surprised you can't understand how being free from the chains of 'tank healer 3 dps' is not a huge benefit to DDO; while I can see how you would appreciate a more coherent party structure, the reality is that you'll see this more as you level up when equipment is not 90% of a character's effectiveness but more 30-40% of it, and consequently you cannot be so well geared that you just walk through content without a brain. At low levels, distinctions between characters are not yet very strong (a 14 str cleric with good gear can have basically the same ac and damage output as a well geared 16 str fighter, being only 2-3 ac and 1 to hit and damage behind, which is nothing), whereas by even mid levels or endgame these differences are very large. Even more importantly, consumables are a much bigger deal at low levels. The best healing potion in the game is the potion of cure serious wounds, which heals 25-35 hit points. -Twinked characters have these at level 4, and are using them to heal 1/3 of their hp in a second any time they take damage-. However, twinked characters are still using them at level 15 .. when it takes 15 of them to top up. At low levels with those kind of potions in stacks of 500 in your inventory, there is no need to do anything but run as fast as you can. This changes quickly, since its the best healing available for many builds, and it won't improve for the next 16 levels.

What DDO is doing (wisely) is changing the dynamic so that there is simply far less need for established players to spam repeat these quests which bore them and do this to you; in the next update, established players will have the option to earn 'veteran' status, which allows them to begin at level 4 with level-appropriate gear and a lot of favor with the lower level factions. Consequently, you will see way, way less of these spam level grind builds joining your groups., since they will be level 4 without having yet lost any 1st time exp in their favorite/best exp quest chains which they frequently run at lower levels than 4 (eg, they will be able to go hit waterworks hard/elite, stk, tangleroot, etc) and will very quickly accelerate out of the intiial lvel 1-6 range where these complaints originate; while they're still occaisonally complained about in the 7-8 range with very powerful melee builds, they all but evaporate after Gwylan's Stand / Tear of Dhakaan / Stormcleave outpost, because quests are no longer overwhelmed by twink gear so easily.

Whatever complaint you may have about this system is almost sure to evaporate when you are level 13 and realize that you are free to do any quest any time you want with whoever you want or whatever is available, and do not sit there staring at your lfm for 20 minutes lfg cleric, favored soul while your party members get bored and leave, unless, of course, your characters blow, in whichcase you will be one of those lfms that everyone avoids for exactly that reason.

That the standard party roles need not apply does not mean teamwork need not apply; it means that a well created rogue can play party healer with umd if it wants to, that a well geared dps can dispose of dangerous mobs fast enough that a dedicated aggro tank isn't needed, and that the bard can frequently just haste the party and fascinate the trash mobs and completely free the party of the need to waste time or resources on fighting them in the first place.

This diversity of options and ways to successfully complete the quest faciliates grouping and play speed; most importantly, it removes the lfg downtime considerably, because its entirely possible to go run a lv 14 quest on elite with all lv 12 characters and have a ranger and paladin as party healer for the rogue, fighter and barbarian .. and if a caster or cleric never joins, that's not actually a very big deal if they play intelligently and take care of each other.

hell, my monk with 1 rogue level, a straight dps build, played party healer with umd in those levels and ran some quests in 3-4 man groups without the need for any arcane or cleric at all. Not having to sit around and find a specific class for a party role is such a huge advantage, because people don't feel any pressure to play any kind of character but the one they want to; you can do any quest with basically any group if you're smart, and you have no sit-around waiting time.

[DirkSJ]

This is a terrible system though. The system we have right now is far better.
For you: maybe true. For the market in general and for making money as a successful MMO: WoW has proven you wrong.

[dormetheus]

For you: maybe true. For the market in general and for making money as a successful MMO: WoW has proven you wrong.

Lots of terrible things are highly successful. I mean, look at pop music....

[CSFurious]

many of us have run the quests many times & also have other things to do besides this game, i.e., work, exercise, take care of the baby, hug the wife, etc.

[Stabsy]

For you: maybe true. For the market in general and for making money as a successful MMO: WoW has proven you wrong.

Frankly DDO is not competing against WoW. It's competing against WoW-clones like Alganon and Runes of Magic and destroying them.

Turning this game into WoW because WoW is the most popular would not see this game get 11 million players.

Anyway I really think the game will turn into the game you want to see as you level up. What you're seeing is the effect of powerful twink items and people who know the maps well and just want to rush up.

Plus the Barb effect, uncheck the Barb class in your LFMs (with apologies to the small minority of considerate Barbs out there).

[dormetheus]

Frankly DDO is not competing against WoW. It's competing against WoW-clones like Alganon and Runes of Magic and destroying them.

Turning this game into WoW because WoW is the most popular would not see this game get 11 million players.

Anyway I really think the game will turn into the game you want to see as you level up. What you're seeing is the effect of powerful twink items and people who know the maps well and just want to rush up.

Plus the Barb effect, uncheck the Barb class in your LFMs (with apologies to the small minority of considerate Barbs out there).

I've almost always been one of those barbs, BUT I want the noobs to know how much it SUCKS inching/standing around doing nothing when the ~1 minute rage is running down.

There's a time to stop and smell roses, and there's a time to kill. But mostly there's a time to kill. RAAAAAGGEEEE

[HamHamJ]

For you: maybe true. For the market in general and for making money as a successful MMO: WoW has proven you wrong.

Trying to compete with WoW for it's demographic is a losers game. You are far better off trying to pick up all the people who quit WoW by offering something different.

[ddaedelus]

Trying to compete with WoW for it's demographic is a losers game. You are far better off trying to pick up all the people who quit WoW by offering something different.

Agreed.

Why would I play a game with group dynamics and gameplay that were just like WoW? I wouldn't. I would play WoW. No other game is going to beat WoW at its own model.

I play DDO because character development is complicated and holds a lot of variety. I play it because many of the dungeons are interesting and clever. And I play it because my group role is defined by the way I create my character, not by the way the developers created my character. These things are all unique to DDO. Take them away and I would play something else.

[Thorzian]

FYI... killing both elementals in STK takes about 30 extra seconds and gets you 700 bonus xp (in a 2.5k quest).

you must play a different stk than i do. the 2nd elemental is at the end of a long, side passage not needed to complete the mission on my server. and that would take much longer than 30 seconds in a 2.5k mission which is nothing more than a stepping stone to the 3.5 k mission that im playing for. i count stk as one mission.. not 3. 700 xp in 7k. must've been raised like all the other optional xp. the way i see it, it's a 6% xp bonus for a 3-5% extra time taken... so could be worth doing.

dormetheus, i couldnt agree more.. barbarians must rush ahead. we of the angry class dont see it as zerging, we really dont. we see a timer in the upper right side of the screen counting down.. .59... 58... 57...56... "why the hell are we just standing here? these buffs are on a timer you know" but it's just an honest truth. use the haste, bless, aid, prayer, blur, resist while you have it. why run out when you dont have to? or rebuff when just a little more go would have made them last. i know my cleric prefers to use his sp for healing and a little bit of offence... not buffing over and over.

[Stabsy]

I've almost always been one of those barbs, BUT I want the noobs to know how much it SUCKS inching/standing around doing nothing when the ~1 minute rage is running down.

There's a time to stop and smell roses, and there's a time to kill. But mostly there's a time to kill. RAAAAAGGEEEE

I understand completely and personally I love playing with Barbs.