relientKitten
10-17-2009, 09:33 PM
I'm been working on designing my new cleric and have been reading through the forums for builds, advice, ideas, etc. One thing I've noticed is that folks have been quite insistent on Maximize Spell and either Empower Healing for heal-focus and Empower for offense-focus.
I don't have much experience in DDO though I've been around since Alpha, but I find it interesting that there is so much more of a focus on the MetaMagic feats here compared to PnP, where generally the only MM feats a cleric has are either Divine or due to being Radiant Servants.
Some folks seem to think that the best way to go is to combine Empower Healing and Maximize. Of course, I'm an Excel and number-crunching addict, so this is what I've got so far.
This is what I computed on a per-die basis (since the die is all that is affected by Empower Healing and Maximize).
(Empower (Healing) is without the Cleric Enhancement points)
die min max avg emp max both emphsp esp msp emph&msp e&msp
d2 1 2 1.5 2.25 2 3 0.225 0.150 0.080 0.086 0.075
d4 1 4 2.5 3.75 4 6 0.375 0.250 0.160 0.171 0.150
d6 1 6 3.5 5.25 6 9 0.525 0.350 0.240 0.257 0.225
d8 1 8 4.5 6.75 8 12 0.675 0.450 0.320 0.343 0.300
d10 1 10 5.5 8.25 10 15 0.825 0.550 0.400 0.429 0.375
d12 1 12 6.5 9.75 12 18 0.975 0.650 0.480 0.514 0.450
d8s are common, here's a level-by-level comparison of how value/sp relates with the MM feats.
healing d8
base emph max emph&m
value 4.5 6.75 8 12
1 10 0.450 20 0.338 35 0.229 45 0.267
2 15 0.300 25 0.270 40 0.200 50 0.240
3 20 0.225 30 0.225 45 0.178 55 0.218
4 25 0.180 35 0.193 50 0.160 60 0.200
5 30 0.150 40 0.169 55 0.145 65 0.185
6 35 0.129 45 0.150 60 0.133 70 0.171
7 40 0.113 50 0.135 65 0.123 75 0.160
8 45 0.100 55 0.123 70 0.114 80 0.150
9 50 0.090 60 0.113 75 0.107 85 0.141
offense d8
base emp max e&m
value 4.5 6.75 8 12
1 10 0.450 25 0.270 35 0.229 50 0.240
2 15 0.300 30 0.225 40 0.200 55 0.218
3 20 0.225 35 0.193 45 0.178 60 0.200
4 25 0.180 40 0.169 50 0.160 65 0.185
5 30 0.150 45 0.150 55 0.145 70 0.171
6 35 0.129 50 0.135 60 0.133 75 0.160
7 40 0.113 55 0.123 65 0.123 80 0.150
8 45 0.100 60 0.113 70 0.114 85 0.141
9 50 0.090 65 0.104 75 0.107 90 0.133
So, for comparison's sake (x means never more efficient)...
d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12
Maximize >= Base x 8 6 6 6 5
Empower Healing >= Base 3 3 3 3 3 3
Maximize >= Empower Healing x x x x x x
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Base 6 4 4 4 4 3
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Empower Healing x 6 4 4 4 3
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Maximize 1 1 1 1 1 1
Empower >= Base 5 5 5 5 5 5
Maximize >= Empower x x x 7 6 5
Maximize + Empower >= Base 7 5 5 4 4 4
Maximize + Empower >= Empower x 5 3 3 3 2
Maximize + Empower >= Maximize 1 1 1 1 1 1
Since d8s are quite common in cleric spells, and d6s and d10s come into play once in a while, if you're focused solely on maximizing efficiency, these are the levels in which MM feats are actually more efficient:
Healing Offense
1 Base Base
2 Base Base
3 Emp Heal Base
4 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
5 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
6 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
7 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
8 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
9 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
This would imply that, from an efficiency standpoint, if you are Healing focused and want to be prepared for the spell level in which you will be most efficient, take Empowered Healing at 3rd and Maximize at 6th. If you're willing to wait for either/or, take them at 6th and 9th respectfully.
For Offense focused Clerics, by the time Empower becomes more efficient than the Base, Maximize + Empower has become more efficient than Empower; in fact, that combo was more efficient than the Base at spell level before! So take them both, in whichever order you'd prefer, at levels 3rd and 6th. If you don't want to invest in both so early before the combo is actually worthwhile, take Empower at 6th and then Maximize at 9th to, ahem, maximize the efficiency. Or take both at 9th and 12th, you'll just have been a bit more inefficient in the end.
Whew, that was fun.
I've noticed that a lot of folks tend to put these MM feats at about the levels I listed above, and while I don't know that they didn't do all of the number crunching themselves, I now feel that those feats are, in fact, worthy of adding to my repertoire here in DDO, though I'll continue to shy away from them in PnP.
I don't have much experience in DDO though I've been around since Alpha, but I find it interesting that there is so much more of a focus on the MetaMagic feats here compared to PnP, where generally the only MM feats a cleric has are either Divine or due to being Radiant Servants.
Some folks seem to think that the best way to go is to combine Empower Healing and Maximize. Of course, I'm an Excel and number-crunching addict, so this is what I've got so far.
This is what I computed on a per-die basis (since the die is all that is affected by Empower Healing and Maximize).
(Empower (Healing) is without the Cleric Enhancement points)
die min max avg emp max both emphsp esp msp emph&msp e&msp
d2 1 2 1.5 2.25 2 3 0.225 0.150 0.080 0.086 0.075
d4 1 4 2.5 3.75 4 6 0.375 0.250 0.160 0.171 0.150
d6 1 6 3.5 5.25 6 9 0.525 0.350 0.240 0.257 0.225
d8 1 8 4.5 6.75 8 12 0.675 0.450 0.320 0.343 0.300
d10 1 10 5.5 8.25 10 15 0.825 0.550 0.400 0.429 0.375
d12 1 12 6.5 9.75 12 18 0.975 0.650 0.480 0.514 0.450
d8s are common, here's a level-by-level comparison of how value/sp relates with the MM feats.
healing d8
base emph max emph&m
value 4.5 6.75 8 12
1 10 0.450 20 0.338 35 0.229 45 0.267
2 15 0.300 25 0.270 40 0.200 50 0.240
3 20 0.225 30 0.225 45 0.178 55 0.218
4 25 0.180 35 0.193 50 0.160 60 0.200
5 30 0.150 40 0.169 55 0.145 65 0.185
6 35 0.129 45 0.150 60 0.133 70 0.171
7 40 0.113 50 0.135 65 0.123 75 0.160
8 45 0.100 55 0.123 70 0.114 80 0.150
9 50 0.090 60 0.113 75 0.107 85 0.141
offense d8
base emp max e&m
value 4.5 6.75 8 12
1 10 0.450 25 0.270 35 0.229 50 0.240
2 15 0.300 30 0.225 40 0.200 55 0.218
3 20 0.225 35 0.193 45 0.178 60 0.200
4 25 0.180 40 0.169 50 0.160 65 0.185
5 30 0.150 45 0.150 55 0.145 70 0.171
6 35 0.129 50 0.135 60 0.133 75 0.160
7 40 0.113 55 0.123 65 0.123 80 0.150
8 45 0.100 60 0.113 70 0.114 85 0.141
9 50 0.090 65 0.104 75 0.107 90 0.133
So, for comparison's sake (x means never more efficient)...
d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12
Maximize >= Base x 8 6 6 6 5
Empower Healing >= Base 3 3 3 3 3 3
Maximize >= Empower Healing x x x x x x
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Base 6 4 4 4 4 3
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Empower Healing x 6 4 4 4 3
Maximize + Empower Healing >= Maximize 1 1 1 1 1 1
Empower >= Base 5 5 5 5 5 5
Maximize >= Empower x x x 7 6 5
Maximize + Empower >= Base 7 5 5 4 4 4
Maximize + Empower >= Empower x 5 3 3 3 2
Maximize + Empower >= Maximize 1 1 1 1 1 1
Since d8s are quite common in cleric spells, and d6s and d10s come into play once in a while, if you're focused solely on maximizing efficiency, these are the levels in which MM feats are actually more efficient:
Healing Offense
1 Base Base
2 Base Base
3 Emp Heal Base
4 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
5 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
6 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
7 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
8 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
9 Max + Emp Heal Max + Emp
This would imply that, from an efficiency standpoint, if you are Healing focused and want to be prepared for the spell level in which you will be most efficient, take Empowered Healing at 3rd and Maximize at 6th. If you're willing to wait for either/or, take them at 6th and 9th respectfully.
For Offense focused Clerics, by the time Empower becomes more efficient than the Base, Maximize + Empower has become more efficient than Empower; in fact, that combo was more efficient than the Base at spell level before! So take them both, in whichever order you'd prefer, at levels 3rd and 6th. If you don't want to invest in both so early before the combo is actually worthwhile, take Empower at 6th and then Maximize at 9th to, ahem, maximize the efficiency. Or take both at 9th and 12th, you'll just have been a bit more inefficient in the end.
Whew, that was fun.
I've noticed that a lot of folks tend to put these MM feats at about the levels I listed above, and while I don't know that they didn't do all of the number crunching themselves, I now feel that those feats are, in fact, worthy of adding to my repertoire here in DDO, though I'll continue to shy away from them in PnP.