whi lose favor points????

[nochipatzin]

I do not see that the reincarnated lost favor points, points of favor comes to fame and reputation you have earned in the city, rencarnar lost many things, including memories, so I either give you the bonus first time to do a quest, but do not lose the name so your reputation to others should not lose either

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You start with 0 favor on a True reincarnation. The others aren't really reincarnations, just limited respecs.

[nochipatzin]

You start with 0 favor on a True reincarnation. The others aren't really reincarnations, just limited respecs.

yes I already know, the true reincarnation is what I meant

[Lorien_the_First_One]

yes I already know, the true reincarnation is what I meant

Then I have no idea what you are asking lol... It looked like you were arguing for them losing favor points...which they do... are you arguing against it and if so, why?

[Junts]

I think he's trying to say that losing your favor but not getting first-time bonuses again sucks .. but I wasnt aware true reincarnations didn't get first times again.

[nochipatzin]

Then I have no idea what you are asking lol... It looked like you were arguing for them losing favor points...which they do... are you arguing against it and if so, why?

**** language barrier. I will try to explain it again:
I discover to lose points for that I should not miss, that to keep the name preserves your reputation for your name is your reputation, so that people will take away two spaces kundarak your bank yet 3 keeps your stuff your account with your name?
to keep your name rencarnar would also have to keep your reputation in this case is shown in favor points

[Pwesiela]

**** language barrier. I will try to explain it again:
I discover to lose points for that I should not miss, that to keep the name preserves your reputation for your name is your reputation, so that people will take away two spaces kundarak your bank yet 3 keeps your stuff your account with your name?
to keep your name rencarnar would also have to keep your reputation in this case is shown in favor points

OK, let me try. You're saying that since your reputation is directly attached to your name, and since you retain your name upon true reincarnation, that we should keep our total favor and the rewards that come from it?

The only problem I would have is that a true reincarnation brings you to level 1, adds to the total xp that you need to level, and (keeping favor) would eliminate most (if not nearly all) the additional first time xp bonuses that help you level in the first place.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I think the fact that I'm named for my father won't necessarily give me the same favor as him. I think resetting favor to 0 and allowing the char to get first time quest bonus' in every quest makes sense. This is a new char basically...

[Pwesiela]

I think the fact that I'm named for my father won't necessarily give me the same favor as him. I think resetting favor to 0 and allowing the char to get first time quest bonus' in every quest makes sense. This is a new char basically...

Agree on the favor reset.

Though this isn't really a Sr./Jr. sort of thing. It is, after all, a reincarnation of the same person with the same name, so it makes sense and all. It's just not something I'd want to see with the leveling requirements.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Agree on the favor reset.

Though this isn't really a Sr./Jr. sort of thing. It is, after all, a reincarnation of the same person with the same name, so it makes sense and all. It's just not something I'd want to see with the leveling requirements.

Plus reearning favor should get your TPs :D

[Pwesiela]

Plus reearning favor should get your TPs :D

Hmmm...If I reroll the character that unlocked the favor milestones (not the 100 benchmarks), which I plan on doing since Pwes is still a 28 point build and I'd love to take her to 34, would I get to re-earn those benchmarks since they got wiped too?

[Borror0]

I think the fact that I'm named for my father won't necessarily give me the same favor as him. I think resetting favor to 0 and allowing the char to get first time quest bonus' in every quest makes sense. This is a new char basically...
If it is not a problem for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation to not reset your favor, it should not be a problem that True Reincarnation behaves in the same manner.

Now, as to whether or not True Reincarnation should reset favor, I believe it should not (nor should it reset tomes). The same argument that applied to non-upgradeable 28 point buy characters applies here: throwing away your achievements is not fun and doing so is a huge kick in the nuts for about every Achievers/Completionists.

Even if Turbine was to add a way to respec class levels that is separated of True Reincarnation, it would still mean that you have to level the same character three times and accept that all the favor you will acquire the two first times will be in vain. In makes an already unfun and grindy mechanic (favor) even more frustrating and grindy. I, personally, have yet to encounter argument in favor of it of losing all favor (no, "MMOs should have grinds" does not count).

[Pwesiela]

I, personally, have yet to encounter argument in favor of it of losing all favor.

The only argument that really works for loosing favor is that it also resets the first time bonuses (I think. Can't get the TDM to work for me so I can't say for sure, and the things bugged anyway, so...).

The best thing that could be done is to allow us to retain access to the rewards for the favor on our reincarnated characters (i.e. P buffs, silver flame costs/regen, bank slots (do we loose any gear stashed in those extra slots if they vanish?!?), 10 hp, and such) while resetting what the game recognizes as first time entries. This keeps the achievement bonuses (and recognition of our name by the houses) and gives the xp bonus.

[nochipatzin]

OK, let me try. You're saying that since your reputation is directly attached to your name, and since you retain your name upon true reincarnation, that we should keep our total favor and the rewards that come from it?

The only problem I would have is that a true reincarnation brings you to level 1, adds to the total xp that you need to level, and (keeping favor) would eliminate most (if not nearly all) the additional first time xp bonuses that help you level in the first place.


Ok but this is why I say programming problem?
that I am saying is that the first bond would not necessarily lost, because the reincarnated us if we forget things so that when making a level one quest would be like if we did the first time, the favor is what people know about us they do not have to forget what we did for them, now if programming thing, then still have plenty of time to resolve. :P

[Borror0]

The only argument that really works for loosing favor is that it also resets the first time bonuses
I don't follow your logic.

[Pwesiela]

Ok but this is why I say programming problem?
that I am saying is that the first bond would not necessarily lost, because the reincarnated us if we forget things so that when making a level one quest would be like if we did the first time, the favor is what people know about us they do not have to forget what we did for them, now if programming thing, then still have plenty of time to resolve. :P

Translated into conversational english:

Right, but is this complicated by programming issues? What I'm saying is that we loose (most of) our memories of the prior life and so going through a dungeon again should feel like it is new to us. However, because we are still who we were, those around us should know who we are and what we've done for them and should still reward us for it. If it's a programming issue, then there's still time to fix it before the update. :p

How'd I do?

And I can agree with this. (See above post.)

[Pwesiela]

I don't follow your logic.

If we don't reset the favor, then the game thinks we've already completed a dungeon on elite, so that when we do it as a reincarnated self, the first time we step in on elite would check the log, see that we've done it on elite before, and not give us a 50% bonus for first time. As a reincarnated self, we'll need more xp (10%, right?) to get to the next level. Taking away the bonuses for first time completion because we're still favored for that quest will hurt the xp grind to get back up to level more than it should.

[Borror0]

If we don't reset the favor, then the game thinks we've already completed a dungeon on elite, so that when we do it as a reincarnated self, the first time we step in on elite would check the log, see that we've done it on elite before, and not give us a 50% bonus for first time. As a reincarnated self, we'll need more xp (10%, right?) to get to the next level. Taking away the bonuses for first time completion because we're still favored for that quest will hurt the xp grind to get back up to level more than it should.
Simple solution: Don't require us to regain more XP or give us an XP boost after each True Reincarnation.

More complicated but interesting one: Make the penalty for repetition decay over time.

[Pwesiela]

Simple solution: Don't require us to regain more XP.

More complicated but interesting one: Make the penalty for repetition decay over time.

Yeah, but they've already stated they're going to do it, and I doubt it'll change. But with all the bugs in reincarnation it wouldn't be a bad idea to allow us access to favor rewards (especially bank and inventory slots) while simultaneously allowing first time bonuses.

[Borror0]

Yeah, but they've already stated they're going to do it, and I doubt it'll change.
What makes you believe that?

[Healemup]

Now, as to whether or not True Reincarnation should reset favor, I believe it should not (nor should it reset tomes). The same argument that applied to non-upgradeable 28 point buy characters applies here: throwing away your achievements is not fun and doing so is a huge kick in the nuts for about every Achievers/Completionists.


You can't begin to believe the grumbling I am doing over this. I would like to have the option to reset favor (thus removing the penalty for number of times completed and allowing the granting of TP and special things (extra bank, +2 tome, more backpack, 10 hp)) OR retain the favor (thus increasing the difficulty to re-level by not getting first time bonuses, not gaining the specialties, or even earning Turbine Points).

I don't think I can bare to see my 3000+ favor guys go to zero TWICE for the extra build points and access to feats...

My 2cp.

[Pwesiela]

What makes you believe that?

Because I can only think of about 2 or 3 substantial things they've changed as a result of player feedback and about 10,000 that they never changed even with overwhelming player feedback to the contrary. Kick some axe, anyone?

[Pwesiela]

I don't think I can bare to see my 3000+ favor guys go to zero TWICE for the extra build points and access to feats...

My 2cp.

In all fairness, your 3000+ favor guy will only go to zero once. Do you honestly plan on maxing his favor the second time around knowing that you're gonna reincarnate him again? I'd just go for the lvl 20 with minimum quest grinding, personally.

But like I said, Pwes is my main and has my highest favor (2900+) but I'd gladly loose that to take her from 28 points to 34.

[Healemup]

In all fairness, your 3000+ favor guy will only go to zero once. Do you honestly plan on maxing his favor the second time around knowing that you're gonna reincarnate him again? I'd just go for the lvl 20 with minimum quest grinding, personally.

But like I said, Pwes is my main and has my highest favor (2900+) but I'd gladly loose that to take her from 28 points to 34.

One slight correction, its guys not guy. I have 7 of them over 3000. You are correct though that I would not go for favor on the second time, and now not likely on the thrid time either. But, I would be quite remorseful at having no means of showing that I once had all of the quests completed on elite. It would definitely remove one of the things that has provided me incentive in the game and would probably translate into much less time spent playing. It could even lead to my eventually not caring whether I play them or not as I would not have something to show for the times when I am not grinding for some specific loot or helping out guildies or friends. The favor system gives me a reason to do those quests that I would definitely avoid. I would end up running the same 40 quests into the ground and get burned out. All that said, I don't mind doing it for a new guy I just rolled up (such as my favored soul), but I can't see running 250+ quests again on 7 (would be 9 now).

Anyway, just a reason why I would NOT choose the True reincarnation. I am not against it, just wish I had a choice as to take the feature or not as part of the process. I am willing to accept other penalties for making the choice, but a choice would be nice.

[Pwesiela]

One slight correction, its guys not guy. I have 7 of them over 3000.

Yeah, I don't read sigs unless I'm wanting to know alts. Can you tell?

Oh, and get out more! Sheesh.... :p

I was wavering for a while on using True v. Greater on Pwesiela (the one with all elite), but the value of the build points weigh for it. Don't know what I'm going to do with my other high favor characters that are already 32 points.

[Cedwin]

From my other post on this same subject:



For arguments sake, lets say reincarnation is real, yes people die and come back as other people, or animals, but no womens bicycle seats.

Now lets say Elvis was reincarnated as a doctor. Should this doctor get credit for everything that Elvis did? Does he get "rock star" status? Does he get the +4 charisma tome that Elvis obviously ate (when he wasn't eating fried peanut-butter and banana sandwiches)? Does he get to bypass becoming a music star and go straight to playing in front of millions of people (music career raid completion)?

I know, it's a game, not real life, sacrifices need to be made, etc., but to reincarnate as a new person and keep everything just seems silly. I can see having "gear" passed down, but that's about it.

[Pwesiela]

From my other post on this same subject:

Except in this case the reincarnation is accomplished by magical means. In other words, people know who you are and what you've done in past lives. Gear that was attuned to you and you alone is still attuned to you and you alone.

And if we knew Elvis was reincarnated and chose to become a doctor, you'd better believe he'd be a celebrity. Heck, the guy's dead and still walking around. (I saw him for real in a diner in eastern Montana. I swear!)

[rimble]

Simple solution: Don't require us to regain more XP or give us an XP boost after each True Reincarnation.

More complicated but interesting one: Make the penalty for repetition decay over time.

Could always just start a parallel quest/favor tracker too. Of course you'd have to increase the size of the character records and update code all over the place and I don't know what else to do that.

[Borror0]

From my other post on this same subject:
If it is okay for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation not to remove your favor, then it should not be a problem for True Reincarnation to behave in the same manner.

[Cedwin]

If it is okay for Lesser and Greater Reincarnation not to remove your favor, then it should not be a problem for True Reincarnation to behave in the same manner.

I think what they are going for is something like this:

"kind of a" reincarnation (lesser)
think of it as restarting to the last check point in a game

"almost a" reincarnation (greater)
think of it as restarting to the beginning of the level

"a really real" reincarnation (true)
think of it as pressing the reset button

[rimble]

I understand the difficulty that could be involved keeping track of multiple quest/favor routes your character reincarnations have gone through. To at least simplify re-favoring, maybe they could allow Reincarnated people to open things on Elite from the get-go.

[Pwesiela]

I understand the difficulty that could be involved keeping track of multiple quest/favor routes your character reincarnations have gone through. To at least simplify re-favoring, maybe they could allow Reincarnated people to open things on Elite from the get-go.

I could go for that.

[rimble]

I could go for that.

That may negate the whole 'VIP can open things on Hard' incentive, so maybe just knock people up a category.

F2P Reincarnates can open things on Hard, VIP Reincarnates can open things on Elite.

[Healemup]

I understand the difficulty that could be involved keeping track of multiple quest/favor routes your character reincarnations have gone through. To at least simplify re-favoring, maybe they could allow Reincarnated people to open things on Elite from the get-go.

That would help slightly for when you are soloing or doing quest chains. Otherwise, I typically switch to an alt to open for the group rather than run them multiple times.

[Andromansis]

Plus reearning favor should get your TPs :D

I agree with you on that point at least. But the fact of the matter is that its still a HUGE penalty for ADVANCING your character.
Since it is a form of character advancement, then why do they compound...

-The fact that you lose all of your exp
-The difficulty to do it in the first place
-The fact that you won't be able to get the same exp you did when you originally leveled your character
-The fact that it will take you more exp to level up
with the fact that you will lose all of your favor?


So far I've only seen the fact that they gain access to past life feats and 2 additional stat points.
Thats 5 negatives to 2 positives, (3 if you count the TP thing).
Personally I'd like to see a little bit more equity between what is lost and what is gained.

[Cedwin]

So far I've only seen the fact that they gain access to past life feats and 2 additional stat points.
Thats 5 negatives to 2 positives, (3 if you count the TP thing).
Personally I'd like to see a little bit more equity between what is lost and what is gained.

4. Your avatar gets bigger.
5. You get bragging rights. (I'm a lvl20v3)

[Borror0]

I think what they are going for is something like this:
In the context, Reincarnation is probably used to mean "A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment" rather than the more common "Rebirth of the soul in another body" for both Lesser and Greater Reincarnation while "Rebirth of the soul in another body" is used for True Reincarnation.

Thing is, if it's okay for "A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment" to be used for Lesser and Greater, it's acceptable for True Reincarnation to use that definition as well and not cause you to lose your favor if so desired.

[Cedwin]

Thing is, if it's okay for "A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment" to be used for Lesser and Greater, it's acceptable for True Reincarnation to use that definition as well and not cause you to lose your favor if so desired.

Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying since faux crab meat tastes kinda like crab meat, it must use the same meat as true crab meat?

[Borror0]

Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying since faux crab meat tastes kinda like crab meat, it must use the same meat as true crab meat?
No, it's not. If you think it is, please demonstrate.

Reincarnation can mean two things. Either we're talking about the more generic meaning of reappearing in another form or we're talking about the more specific meaning of coming back to life, after death, into another form. The second one entails death while the first one does not. Both are correct usage of the word that can be found in a dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reincarnation) even though one is more common than the other (the second one) due to cultural reasons.

Because of the cultural context, one might believe that the first usage is incorrect while the second one is correct and thus that the expression "True Reincarnation" is used to mean that it's a "real" reincarnation, unlike the other two that were not "real" reincarnation, but he would be wrong. As I said earlier, both usage are correct.

In this context, "true" could rather be used as a quantifier of magnitude (ie a "true" reincarnation will allow more drastic changes to your appearance).

To be clear, the developers can use it to say that True Reincarnation is a "real" reincarnation that implies the previous incarnation's death and the manifestation in an entirely true body. In that sense, Lesser and Greater Reincarnation would be "false" reincarnations in that they still let the character live. However, they are not forced to use that definition.

Another way to explain the logic would be the following:
"The opposite of right is ______."

In this case, there are two possible answers: wrong or left. By answering, you decide what the meaning of "right" was in the context but, until then, it was up to you to decide which of the two possible definitions you wanted "right" to have.

The developers are in the same position: if they make True Reincarnation erase our favor, it means they decided that reincarnation should stand for "Rebirth of the soul in another body" while, if they make True Reincarnation not erase our favor, they decided it should stand for "A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment". Thus, the question solely is about whether it is preferable to erase our favor and not about making a flavor design that follows the name that it was given - that will happen either way.

[Cedwin]

In this context, "true" could rather be used as a quantifier of magnitude (ie a "true" reincarnation will allow more drastic changes to your appearance).


I've never heard of "true" being used as a quantifier of magnitude, but I can see how it could be perceived to be with the various terms floating around.

We've seen lesser, greater, improved, elite, epic, but never "true". Maybe it's just my own perception of the word, but in context it would seem that they are using True as "Real", while the others are not true. It would be like if they used "Solo/Normal/Hard/True", it just doesn't make sense in context.

[Borror0]

I've never heard of "true" being used as a quantifier of magnitude, but I can see how it could be perceived to be with the various terms floating around.
Think of "true" as a synonymous with "complete".

If we want to get in the specifics, it is that it's impossible for the "true" in "True Reincarnation" to mean "real" as that would imply, by necessity, that the other are not real reincarnations which is false because they are called reincarnations (Lesser and Greater). Using "true" to mean "real" does not make sense.

As you've acknowledged yourself, both "lesser and "greater" can be used as quantifier if magnitude. Thus, it would be logical to suspect True Reincarnation to be used in the same manner since the three of them share the same context. When you look at True Reincarnation in that light, the meaning of "true", in the context, arises: it's used to mean that it's a complete reincarnation that leaves nothing untouched.

It would be like if they used "Solo/Normal/Hard/True", it just doesn't make sense in context.
Well, yeah. Likewise, "Solo/Normal/Hard/Greater" does not make sense either even if you agreed "greater" can be used to quantify magnitude. It's all about context.

[Cedwin]

it's used to mean that it's a complete reincarnation that leaves nothing untouched.


Ok, I think the problem here is that we are using an adjective that can have several different meanings, depending on context... and a word that can have multiple meanings, depending on religious background.

From your quote, Complete Reincarnation could mean that you die and your soul comes back in a new person, whereas the others are incomplete, and you only change forms without dying and coming back.

[Borror0]

Ok, I think the problem here is that we are using an adjective that can have several different meanings, depending on context... and a word that can have multiple meanings, depending on religious background.
Obviously and it's because of ambivalence that True Reincarnation does not have to reset favor to be flavorful.

The words chosen allow the mechanics to be changed in that manner without needing to change the lore explanation.

Complete Reincarnation could mean that you die and your soul comes back in a new person, whereas the others are incomplete, and you only change forms without dying and coming back.
Yes, but it would be a queer definition (as "not dying but changing" is somehow superior to "dying and changing" and thus the use of "lesser" and "greater" is bizarre).

[Andromansis]

4. Your avatar gets bigger.
5. You get bragging rights. (I'm a lvl20v3)

Those aren't exactly perks...

My avatar is already above average size, and I'd be driving an 80's muscle car if I wanted something to brag about.

And even if they were, I'm not entirely certain if they even count as such because they are completely useless. They're certainly not in the same vein or league as the 5 drawbacks I listed.

The biggest problem with losing favor is that you lose your ranks, and if you lose your overall rank then you'll no longer be able to create drow, have a veteran status, utilitze a 32 point build, or create a favored soul...

Of course this would be a completely non issue if you could transmigrate into a new character slot instead of over the one you already have. As much as I'd like that manner of transmigration, I'd still want the ability to open all of the quests on the highest difficulty I've unlocked.
And instead of a flat exp penalty, I'd rather them give you an extra rank to work with for every level. Thus making max rank 120
or 140 for v3
And that would make the difference of power between them quite quantifiable and not just for, as you put it, "bragging rights". Heck, even 5 or 10 extra ranks would be more than sufficient to justify the extra exp and the penalties to leveling up again.