Debuff spells nerfed more heavily then intended?

[Shade]

Was just updating the compedium with some missing info (most spell durations) when I noticed this in the module 9 release notes:
The following spells now have durations of 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per caster level:

* Bladesworn Transformation
* Divine Favor
* Flare
* Focusing Chant
* Angelskin
* Divine Power
* Featherfall
* Sleep
* Resistance
* Ray of Enfeeblement
* Doom
* Bane
* Crushing Despair
* Ray of Exhaustion

That would put lvl20 Ray of Enfeeblement at 6 x 20 = 120 seconds + 24, or 2 minuts 24 seconds at level 20.. Yet the duration is 1 minuit 24 seconds. (putting it at 24 seconds +6 seconds per 2 caster levels)

[MrCow]

That would put lvl20 Ray of Enfeeblement at 6 x 20 = 120 seconds + 24, or 2 minuts 24 seconds at level 20.. Yet the duration is 1 minuit 24 seconds.

Ray of Enfeeblement suffers from the same issue as False Life and Stoneskin on duration. The duration is capped when the spell is capped in terms of maximum potency.

[Junts]

Was just updating the compedium with some missing info (most spell durations) when I noticed this in the module 9 release notes:
The following spells now have durations of 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per caster level:

* Bladesworn Transformation
* Divine Favor
* Flare
* Focusing Chant
* Angelskin
* Divine Power
* Featherfall
* Sleep
* Resistance
* Ray of Enfeeblement
* Doom
* Bane
* Crushing Despair
* Ray of Exhaustion

That would put lvl20 Ray of Enfeeblement at 6 x 20 = 120 seconds + 24, or 2 minuts 24 seconds at level 20.. Yet the duration is 1 minuit 24 seconds. (putting it at 24 seconds +6 seconds per 2 caster levels)


its cause ray caps its str penalty increase at lv 10, so so does its duration .. all spells with scaling durations and magnitudes will have identical caps (bb caps at lv 15 durations, fireshield caps at 2d6+15 and lv 15 duration), etc

[Shade]

its cause ray caps its str penalty increase at lv 10, so so does its duration .. all spells with scaling durations and magnitudes will have identical caps (bb caps at lv 15 durations, fireshield caps at 2d6+15 and lv 15 duration), etc

Ah I see..

OT: Whats Blader Barriers duration per lvl? Thinking 10 seconds +1 per caster lvl?

[Junts]

Ah I see..

OT: Whats Blader Barriers duration per lvl? Thinking 10 seconds +1 per caster lvl?


I don't actually know off the top of my head, haven't played my cleric much for ages

Its very noticable with fireshield, which extended has a 3 min duration not 4 as a 20.

[Tyrande]

I usually don't bother casting those lower level ray spells, just use the higher and AoE versions of those spells and they stack:

If red/purple named:

Waves of Exhaustion (permanent until monster dies - Exception on Arraetrikos when he flew out on Shroud part IV, don't know if this is intended or a bug)
Waves of Fatigue (permanent until monster dies - Exception on Arraetrikos when he flew out on Shroud part IV, don't know if this is intended or a bug)
Ray of Enfeeblement (need to recast on this one)

If non-red named:

Don't bother. Just energy drain/enervate and then FtS or FoD/WoB.

[tinyelvis]

I dumped ray of enfeeblement shortly after mod 9 due to its short duration.

[ddoer]

I usually don't bother casting those lower level ray spells, just use the higher and AoE versions of those spells and they stack:

If red/purple named:

Waves of Exhaustion (permanent until monster dies - Exception on Arraetrikos when he flew out on Shroud part IV, don't know if this is intended or a bug)
Waves of Fatigue (permanent until monster dies - Exception on Arraetrikos when he flew out on Shroud part IV, don't know if this is intended or a bug)
Ray of Enfeeblement (need to recast on this one)


as I read from another thread, someone said he has tested that Wave/Ray of Exhaustion doesn't stack with Fatigue. I choose to believe that guy without doing any test so that I can bring one less scroll. :D

I personally has tested that ray of enfeeblement stacks with ray/waves of exhaustion.


I dumped ray of enfeeblement shortly after mod 9 due to its short duration.

me 2.


for those debuff spells, in mod 8, the benefit of Wave of Exhaustion spell over scroll is insignificant. we are cap'd at lv 16 and the scroll is lv 13 so there is a lose of 3 points in spell penetration. But in mod 9, we are cap'd at lv 20, and there is a significant gap of 7 points in spell penetration. For me, i no longer use scroll, and loaded the spell. And then dropped the Ray of Exhaustion spell.

Ray of Enfleeblement is suppose to deal 1d6+5 str damage, but in reality, it is nerfed to -2 str against boss. It is quite useless.

[Junts]

ray of enfeeblement does work on all the tod bosses, so its still worth usingif your spell pen is high enough to land it reliably .. it is cheap as hell, after all.

[SimVerg]

Ray of Enfleeblement is suppose to deal 1d6+5 str damage, but in reality, it is nerfed to -2 str against boss. It is quite useless.

Where did you get this number? At least vs. Red named bosses, it is very much not true.

[Shade]

ray of enfeeblement does work on all the tod bosses, so its still worth usingif your spell pen is high enough to land it reliably .. it is cheap as hell, after all.
Agreed, excellent debuff for ToD.

The best reason to load the spell is because ddoer and tinyelvis recommend not too.. Pretty much just always do the oposite of what they say and you will build one very awesome sorcerer.

Guess they don't seem to understand that you can recast spells, ro that most boss fights end in under 2 minuits 48 seconds with a good group anyways.

Or that it is the easiest debuff to land on high SR targets.. Due to an item called the Robe of Duality.

Tho the real sorcerers these days keep it loaded, the true debuffs specialists know this: Ray of Enfeeblement from the staff of arcane power is more powerful then the regular spell.. 1d6 + 7. It takes much longer to land tho, due to its limited caster level, so having the spell loaded and cast quick, then trying for the higher roll on the staff is the best strategy.

[ddoer]

The best reason to load the spell is because ddoer and tinyelvis recommend not too.. Pretty much just always do the oposite of what they say and you will build one very awesome sorcerer.


i'm curious to know how old you are to make comment like this. Perhaps it explained why you give so many useful information on the forum, but still get zero reputation.

mature person avoid making generalized comment. for example, all people are xxx. all comment from xxx are yyy. these kind of comment are usually wrong because the world has exception.

besides, mature people argue on specific points and give supporting arguments instead of saying sth is wrong because it is said by a particular person. Not only it is a fallacy but also it doesn't help other people to make their own judgment. I am quite disappointed you don't use your knowledge and talent in a better way.

to me, i will only advise people to read the argument and make judgment by themselves. Say, in this thread, i mentioned "Wave/Ray of Exhaustion doesn't stack with Fatigue" and "ray of enfeeblement makes only -2 str". They may be wrong. for the first statement, i even mentioned I didn't verify it at all. When other people commented the point is wrong, readers could verify them themselves.

[Visty]

i'm curious to know how old you are to make comment like this. Perhaps it explained why you give so many useful information on the forum, but still get zero reputation.

how you know he doesnt have 5000 rep? he has just disabled it

[ddoer]

how you know he doesnt have 5000 rep? he has just disabled it

I don't really know the reputation could be disabled. so there is a chance he got -5000, right?

[Visty]

I don't really know the reputation could be disabled. so there is a chance he got -5000, right?

then he would have to really **** off the devs and borror but yes, theoretical its possible

[Shade]

ihow old you are ....
reputation. blah blah, mature.

heh totally unrelated things imo.

Reputation. Popularity.. These are things high school kids care about.

I don't subscirbed to that nonsense, so the moment I heard about the system I disabled it. I have never given anyone any reputation points up or down and never will.

Caring about reputation on the DDO forums and how mature you are do not coralate, if you think they do, you have issues. All the system is a dumb popularity contest. People do not gain reputation for how helpful they are or how much knowledge they impart, they gain it for how popular they are and how often they post in threads there friends read.

I'm not here to win the popularity contest, I decline to enter. Wheater I have 10 million or minus a trillion doesn't concern me. I come to the forums simple to learn more about the game and share what I know with others. Not to make friends, not to gain reputation, and nothing else. Just exactly that.

[ddoer]

heh totally unrelated things imo.

Reputation. Popularity.. These are things high school kids care about.

I don't subscirbed to that nonsense, so the moment I heard about the system I disabled it. I have never given anyone any reputation points up or down and never will.

Caring about reputation on the DDO forums and how mature you are do not coralate, if you think they do, you have issues. All the system is a dumb popularity contest. People do not gain reputation for how helpful they are or how much knowledge they impart, they gain it for how popular they are and how often they post in threads there friends read.

I'm not here to win the popularity contest, I decline to enter. Wheater I have 10 million or minus a trillion doesn't concern me. I come to the forums simple to learn more about the game and share what I know with others. Not to make friends, not to gain reputation, and nothing else. Just exactly that.

what happened is, when you use argument like "xxx is wrong because it is said by yyy", it is unlikely the discussion will be meaningful, and by fact, some of us (incl. you and me) have polluted this thread by discussing sth like whether reputation is important.

My previous post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2472640#post2472640) was saying we should be careful when using generalized statement and should refute with supporting argument. if you make a post that say

"Wave/Ray of Exhaustion doesn't stack with Fatigue" is wrong because ...
"... in mod 9, we are cap'd at lv 20, and there is a significant gap of 7 points in spell penetration. ... loaded the spell (Wave of Exhaustion). And then dropped the Ray of Exhaustion spell." is wrong or stupid because ...
"Ray of Enfleeblement is suppose to deal 1d6+5 str damage, but in reality, it is nerfed to -2 str against boss. It is quite useless." is wrong because...


then we could probably make a good discussion. Now i don't really know which point you are disagree with, and you made no supporting argument. if I made a wrong comment in one post, is it sufficient to say all of my 300+ posts are wrong?

for the first 2 bullets, esp the 2nd, they are quite factual and I doubt if you are really meant to say they are wrong.

I guess you disagree with the 3rd bullet. I got that (probably wrong) impression probably from a test with a friend in pvp field that I keep casting the ray repeatedly and able to make a -2 str only or against the Shroud boss it shows as -2 str. (probably not true, and i have dropped the spell so there is no way for me to verify again. you could easily refute this if it is no true. select Arraetrikos and press Z after you have landed the spell to check)

besides, the ray of enfeeblement spell is described as "A coruscating ray springs towards the target, inflicting a 1d6, +1 per 2 caster levels (max 1d6+5), penalty to strength." and i doubt if you could make it 1d6+7 in anyway, not to say, I doubt any caster will bring that uber item all the time for a single spell.

I dropped ray of enfeeblement is not because it doesn't work, but because:

i want to get a long Master's Touch for me to melee. It's more funny to draw a sword given that I am sometimes bored with casting spells.
there is no way to verify the effectiveness of Ray of Enfeeblement given that we don't know how many points of str it deduct. does it cap to -10 like wounding/puncturing? does it stack? are you able to see in the "Z" window?
even if it can reduce -11 str (if you are very luck every time), I don't think it is a big deal to the melees and healers. In Shroud, ToD, VoD, and other quests, the cleric or WF healer that I run with are able to heal the melee no matter I do debuff or not. And I believe people get killed by blade or DBF (in shroud), or disintegrate (in ToD part 3, that the disintegrate hit at 500 dmg) more often than slash attack damage which will be covered by mass heal anyway.


It is not the first time you make pointless disagreement. another case is when you made a reply to my another post about Shroud (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2450375#post2450375).

[Shade]

there is no way to verify the effectiveness of Ray of Enfeeblement given that we don't know how many points of str it deduct. does it cap to -10 like wounding/puncturing? does it stack? are you able to see in the "Z" window?
even if it can reduce -11 str (if you are very luck every time), I don't think it is a big deal to the melees and healers. In Shroud, ToD, VoD, and other quests, the cleric or WF healer that I run with are able to heal the melee no matter I do debuff or not.

Anyone with some basic knowledge of DDO rules can verify it's effectiveness in pvp. Or you could have the sense to trust good sorcerers like myself, junts or mrcow who have already tested it extensively and have the practical knowledge of it, having had it for years. It is fairly simply tho, almost all debuffs work, stack fine and do have a noticable impact.

I imagine the encounters you refer to would succeed if you were not even present in the party at all. Simply because you choose to a worthless addition on those encounters to the group, does not mean the spell itself would not help.

You can do every quest in the game with no debuffs, and no cc, hell no caster at all. The purpose of them is to reduce the resource cost and speed up the quest.

[Junts]

Ray of enfeeblement is a substantial benefit to ac tanking Horoth on hard or elite, as 85 ac chars are in pretty good shape against him when he's enfeebled and exhausted.

At the min roll (1 +5) its -3 to hit for him, at best its -5. If you could give an ac tank in this situation a +3-5 stacking ac buff, you would, and you wouldnt whine about its uselessness

-3-5 damage per hit is also nothing to sneeze at.

[krud]

Ray of enfeeblement is a substantial benefit to ac tanking Horoth on hard or elite, as 85 ac chars are in pretty good shape against him when he's enfeebled and exhausted.

At the min roll (1 +5) its -3 to hit for him, at best its -5. If you could give an ac tank in this situation a +3-5 stacking ac buff, you would, and you wouldnt whine about its uselessness

-3-5 damage per hit is also nothing to sneeze at.
Suollo has that mantle of invulnerability in VoD. Does he (and the other boss) have it in ToD? I forgot to check last run. I haven't got my caster in there yet.

[Visty]

Suollo has that mantle of invulnerability in VoD. Does he (and the other boss) have it in ToD? I forgot to check last run. I haven't got my caster in there yet.

yes, in tod too

[krud]

yes, in tod too
No ray of enfeeblement then. (save it for the orthons)

[Junts]

yes, in tod too



Horoth does -not- have mantle, only Suulomades.

[MrCow]

No ray of enfeeblement then.

The Staff of Arcane Power's version (being as-if 5th level) will punch through Mantle of Invulnerability on Suulomades though.

[ddoer]

Anyone with some basic knowledge of DDO rules can verify it's effectiveness in pvp. Or you could have the sense to trust good sorcerers like myself, junts or mrcow who have already tested it extensively and have the practical knowledge of it, having had it for years. It is fairly simply tho, almost all debuffs work, stack fine and do have a noticable impact.

I imagine the encounters you refer to would succeed if you were not even present in the party at all. Simply because you choose to a worthless addition on those encounters to the group, does not mean the spell itself would not help.

You can do every quest in the game with no debuffs, and no cc, hell no caster at all. The purpose of them is to reduce the resource cost and speed up the quest.

the problem is the "good sorcerer" does not explicitly state that he has tested and stated the methodology of tests. But to take a "just believe me" and "if you disagree with me, you are wrong, and everything you said are wrong, and I'm not going to justify my words" attitude, and he doesn't state clearly what he disagree with and response to question(s) for discussion.

Another issue is some people like to make comments with subjective wordings, e.g. "I land my spells fine (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2411457#post2411457)", "was very succesful (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2478214#post2478214)", "noticable difference (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2466777#post2466777)". How much we can rely on those comment if poster doesn't have good reputation (not necessarily forum reputation), or with dubious reputation:

Tiny is the Shade of sorcerers. He likes to exaggerate his abilities....


Not to say, I personally won't treat anyone as a good sorcerer until I played with him. And i personally think those who claimed themselves good are just sux. You could demonstrate you have a good build in forum, but you can't demonstrate you are a good sorcerer unless you take a video like this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=205872).


Edited: to those don't know about the people on this forum. Please notice that Shade does have great knowledge about the quests and has contributed a lot in testing and frequently give useful information esp about new quests, such as Tod (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198386)(that I referenced in my post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201224)). My post is a response to two particular irresponsible comments made by him.



Ray of Enfeeblement from the staff of arcane power is more powerful then the regular spell.. 1d6 + 7.
if you told me you did a test in PvP and you can produce a -13 str damage. I'll not doubt in you even if it is against the spell's description of "inflicting a 1d6, +1 per 2 caster levels (max 1d6+5), penalty to strength."

The conventional knowledge we have over the years simply does *not* matter at this point because bugs are fixed and new game mechanism (i.e. max 10 stats dmg on boss) are introduced.

There are still people believe ray of exhaustion (probably refer to the -2 in successful save) and wave of exhaustion could stack. My pvp tests shows:

ray of enfeeblement does stack with wave or ray of exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue does not stack with Ray/Waves of Exhaustion
Ray of Exhaustion saved -2 str damage does not stack with Waves of Exhaustion, in another words, Waves of Exhaustion completely supersede Ray of Exhaustion


In PvP, we could deal a 11+6 Str damage at most.



Where did you get this number? At least vs. Red named bosses, it is very much not true.
my statement about enfeeblement only gives -2 is BS. I probably have mixed up the fatigue/ray test number in my memory. My statement is not verifiable (so, it is not wrong :D ), you can never know how much str dmg enfeeblement deal to the boss.




Ray of enfeeblement is a substantial benefit to ac tanking Horoth on hard or elite, as 85 ac chars are in pretty good shape against him when he's enfeebled and exhausted.

At the min roll (1 +5) its -3 to hit for him, at best its -5. If you could give an ac tank in this situation a +3-5 stacking ac buff, you would, and you wouldnt whine about its uselessness

-3-5 damage per hit is also nothing to sneeze at.


indirectly giving more AC is meaningful, and I want to know how critical it is. Let's make it simple, assume we'll use Wave of Exhaustion anyway, and the question is whether we'll cast one or a few ray of enfeeblement, say we shoot him for 4 times in every 2 min 48 sec, keeping him with 9 str dmg in theory. And assume you do this for 3 rounds (i.e. the fight lasts for at most 8.4 mins) this assumes no spell penetration failure, and the duration assumes you have more dps with boots.
(or you could give your scenario of how you actually do use enfeeblement? do you shoot him once or for many times? it's not a paper talk. )

if you don't do the enfeeblement, you could shoot 3 and a half polar ray to the boss. Assumes you make 333 damage each, it's 1000 damage. Or just compare this with giving stoneskin to the tank.

I have no idea how many times the tank will get slash damage to calculate the actual damage reduced by enfeeblement, nor how the few points of AC will affect the tank. And I would appreciate if you could make some assumptions and shed some lights on it.

afaik, the main threats from Horoth is the banishment stun effect and the disintegrate that deal with 500+ damage a hit. When the tank is not in stun, the slash damage is easily manageable by a cleric, esp when there are other people help with heal scrolls. The most valid argument of the usefulness of enfeeblement is when the tank is stunned, and we desperately want to reduce damage from Horoth in that critical moment. How much damage does the enfeeblement reduce when the tank is stunned? does Horoth deal more "extra dps" than a heal scroll?

Without considering the stun scenario, I think the str damage is not critical. And I choose to help reduce cleric's resource usage by spamming heal scrolls instead. I usually run with a static group that no cleric need to use any pot when run on normal.

Warning: to load Ray of Enfeeblement, you may need to give up Grease!!! You have to make your choice. :D

[TFPAQ]

The capping on Divine Favor is?


Desc says an additional +1 blah blah per 3 levels above 3rd blah, blah...

So in theory from the desc. which doesn't talk about it being capped, a lvl 15 cleric casting it should see +5 (15-3 = 12/3 = 4 so 1+4 = 5) but in reality it caps out at +3? (10-3 = 7/3 = 2.33 = 1 + 2.33 = 3 (round down).

Is that correct?

[Junts]

ray of enfeeblement and waves of exhaustion stack, ddoer, why wouldnt you cast both and stack them for a total of -6 to -8 to hit?


And yes, I assume that you have more dps with boots, since our runs routinely have 3-4 sets of boots per run, and even if that's not true for your raid crew yet, it certainly will be as time goes on.

[Junts]

The capping on Divine Favor is?


Desc says an additional +1 blah blah per 3 levels above 3rd blah, blah...

So in theory from the desc. which doesn't talk about it being capped, a lvl 15 cleric casting it should see +5 (15-3 = 12/3 = 4 so 1+4 = 5) but in reality it caps out at +3? (10-3 = 7/3 = 2.33 = 1 + 2.33 = 3 (round down).

Is that correct?

its capped at caster level 10, +3/+3 total.

[Visty]

its capped at caster level 10, +3/+3 total.

caster lvl9 atcually, +1 for each 3 lvls

[ddoer]

ray of enfeeblement and waves of exhaustion stack, ddoer, why wouldnt you cast both and stack them for a total of -6 to -8 to hit?


because taking the spell has a cost. (unless you use scroll and can land the scroll) I'm not saying the spell is not useful, but if you take it, you have give up another level 1 spell. so the question is, we know it is useful, but how useful? could we compensate the loss of not casting enfeeblement by other means, such as using heal scrolls. I wish someone with experience could shed some lights on the usefulness of a 6-11 str damage by some estimated figures.

[Impaqt]

because taking the spell has a cost. (unless you use scroll and can land the scroll) I'm not saying the spell is not useful, but if you take it, you have give up another level 1 spell. so the question is, we know it is useful, but how useful? could we compensate the loss of not casting enfeeblement by other means, such as using heal scrolls. I wish someone with experience could shed some lights on the usefulness of a 6-11 str damage by some estimated figures.


People go Great lengths to get 3-5 points of AC. 6-11 Points of Str damage increases EVERYONES ac in the party by 3 to 5 points against that mob.


It can be a pretty significant benefit for people who have a solid AC. It also reduces his Damage output by 3-5 points per hit as well.

[MrCow]

I wish someone with experience could shed some lights on the usefulness of a 6-11 str damage by some estimated figures.

My absolute favorite use for this spell is to render red-named critters helpless, such as Groktin the Beholder in the Jungles of Khyber helpless (the Red-Named Beholder with ~35 AC). Sure, at 10 STR you may have to cast it a couple times, but that can be darned useful. Many other named beholders, mindflayers, and humanoid casters (Patrick the Maniacal and Vidian) can be dropped into helplessness with a mix of Ray of Enfeeblement and Exhaustion.

[SimVerg]

because taking the spell has a cost. (unless you use scroll and can land the scroll) I'm not saying the spell is not useful, but if you take it, you have give up another level 1 spell. so the question is, we know it is useful, but how useful? could we compensate the loss of not casting enfeeblement by other means, such as using heal scrolls. I wish someone with experience could shed some lights on the usefulness of a 6-11 str damage by some estimated figures.

6-11 str is a 3-5% melee damage taken drop for a 0 ac character tanking Elite Horoth. For most other mobs it is upwards of double that.

[Junts]

because taking the spell has a cost. (unless you use scroll and can land the scroll) I'm not saying the spell is not useful, but if you take it, you have give up another level 1 spell. so the question is, we know it is useful, but how useful? could we compensate the loss of not casting enfeeblement by other means, such as using heal scrolls. I wish someone with experience could shed some lights on the usefulness of a 6-11 str damage by some estimated figures.


What cost? level 1 spells are not exaclty widely used after jump and nightshield: some people use hypno, some use magic missile, but few use both, and they are the only competitors

[Shade]

What cost? level 1 spells are not exaclty widely used after jump and nightshield: some people use hypno, some use magic missile, but few use both, and they are the only competitors

Yea there's no legit reason to not have it loaded.

Level 1 spells that are useful at end game
Protection From evil (for the +2 saves that stacks, and dominate immunity)
Jump (jump casting is rather important)
Nightshield/Shield (tons of endgame mobs cast force missles)
Ray of Enfeeblement (as the thread explains)

Thats 4 of 4 slots used. The rest I don't get it.
Grease: lol. It's a joke spell. There's no reason to load it as it cannot be effected by stats or heightened or anything, the save is locked at DC15. If you really like it, get some clickies or scrolls.
Magic Missle: No. It's pathetic damage at endgame. Use force missles if you must have some force dmg.
Hypno:This is about the only one I can see someone caring about. It's rather overpowered in PvP givein it's ultra fast cast and no miss targeting, so if thats your thing you may have it. For PvM - tons of endgame monsters are immune to it.. And it can be easily replaced by a number of similar superior spells: Mass hold monster, web, ottos, flesh to stone.

[MrCow]

Magic Missle: No. It's pathetic damage at endgame. Use force missles if you must have some force dmg.

Magic Missile is an inexpensive mob peeling spell that works on a very large amount of things. Basically, it is just there in the higher levels to tag a single thing out of an angry mob.

Master's Touch may be another desired 1st level arcane spell for some arcanes, but that is generally for specific types of sorcerers.

[ddoer]

Merfolk's Blessing and Grease! :D:D:D

[drachine]

hypnotism has to be one of the most powerful spells in the game. i use it everywhere. i like it a lot in sins of attrition where the devils teleport in and before they have a chance to engage the party, bam you hit them with it. usually only stops 1-3 but that's 1-3 guys just standing there not hitting the party. how good is that?

i decided to pop over here as to check out the rap on Ray of Enfeeblement as i am considering picking it up as a spell and am debating about what to cut. just a note also i recently picked up Waves of Exhaustion on my sorcerer which i like a lot. i picked it up for raid bosses but am finding it useful elsewhere.

currently my level 1 spells are:

chill touch
hypnotism
jump
nightshield

for a long time i did not have nightshield but i found in the new content you get pummeled a lot by force spells. also i need the resistance slot.

chill touch is very useful against doomspheres and negative damage by passess all damage reduction. the fact i have a charisma superior void lore item makes it hit for 100 damage and the cause fear aspect in powerful undead is cool as well.

protection from evil is not necessary for me as i have the silver flame talisman on most of the time anything that might dominate me is around.

jump i added a while back and i'm thinking of dropping this but it is useful in coalescence chamber, shoud 1 and rainbow so, not sure. also now, there is that new necklace with a jump clickie on it that people seem to be snatching up. so the question becomes do i really want to carry a spell that so many people have ways around at this level. plus rangers have jump. so if i cut one spell for ray of enfeeblement, it will be jump i think, but i have not made a final decision yet.

ray of enfeeblement being useful on horath is reason enough for me to pick it up. that guy hits **** hard and i need our tank to live so i can get my ring :) a good sorcerer looks after his self interests.

another debuff i am considering is symbol of pain. i hear this works on everything and it stacks right? anyone know much about it. i'm sure i can land it. i have greater necromancy focus.

[ddoer]

since the latest update, we no longer can do ray of enfeeblement on both Horoth and Suulomades and Judge and Jailor. so no need to argue now. The devs probably have read this thread and find it unacceptable to drop Horoth's strength by 17.