Epic Feedback: The Chamber of Raiyum [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Shade

10-10-2009, 04:52 AM

Did did one today.. Was pretty good.

We had me (Barbarian)
2 clerics
spellsinger bard
wizard
sorcerer - tho wasnt around long

Monsters:
Immunities and stat damage resistance seemed fully function per the bio description. Regular weakening never worked, but enfeeblidn on crits would do 1-2 dmg, so I guess 4 points of stat dmg DR, seems good. Functional is good, unlike the stat dmg resistance the giants of Stealer of souls are meant to have. (epic ward (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6516/screenshot02340.jpg) makes them immune to death effects, charm, energy drain and mindfog)

Gnolls - Not too bad.. Tons of hp (think 10,000+ per on the big ones), lots of immunities,, good stuff for epic mobs. We used ottos irresistable dance, worked pretty good.

Skeletons Warriors - mmm.. Epic immunities + undead immunties.. Not much you can do but web them. Crazy hp.. Bout the same as gnolls I guess ,but since you cant crit, they take forever.. Me - max DPS frenzy berserker with fairly ideal weapons - min2 maul and double pos maul.. Takes a good 60+ seconds of constant DPS to take one down.. And constant DPS is tough as they have mega AC and the casters types pretty well ignore me and focus on killing the clerics/casters, making me chase em around. Maybe drop the hp by a good 20% and they should be ok. Maybe a small drop in str too, so there is some chance to trip them on a max str char.
Clay Golem - Very annoying cuz they only hit casters again... and 10,000+ hp, with a pretty well ideal wep (min2 maul, so bypasses there heavy DR) they still take way too long. Drop there hp a little, 20% would be fine.
Mummies - also quite crazy hp, but at least the casters could do wall of fire, doing 4x dmg on them, so they are ok.

Havez - Beat him.. After many many deaths from everyone getting 1 shotted by 500+ pnt cometfalls hehe. Tough fight but managable.

King Raiyum and his Death Hex Wraiths..
Raiyum himself isnt too bad, ~250 dmg chain lightning, ~200 dmg DBF, ~500+ disintegrates, nothing I cant handle.
But his Death Hex Wraiths took us out. There dmg is crazy, ~40-50 + 150+ soul drain damage, and 18 second cant-heal curse. By the time we got to him we only had 3 people left tho - as clearing the trash takes an incredibly long time with only 1 melee heh.... We couldn't beat him with just 3. Full group of strong well geared players could probably take him.

Loots:
We got a few chests. Each one had lots of lvl18+ weapons, lvl19 accessories. Good stuff, but no epic named stuff or epic crafting things. Guess there from the end chests.

Bugs:
Mummy Guardians did not seem to scale.. Same stats as elite, kill em in a few hits. Kinda good since they respawn indefinetely heh.. Tho some scalign would be appropriate, just not 10k+ hp,, maybe 2-3k.

Traps:
Traps dmg seemed the same as elite.. not an issue. Did not have a rogue to see if there harder to disabled.

Monsters CR:
Kinda overboard. CR38 on basic trash mobs, with Raiyum being 42. While they should be rated as really tough.. This has a really bad side effect on crushing my weapons into dust. Even tho I had no deaths until the first boss encounter, I had pretty much destroyed my mineral 2 maul from beating down trash mobs.. And thats a higher then normal hardnesss weapon. Other weapons I used broke incredibly fast.
Adamantine ritual will help here, but only so much.. Maybe drop there CR a tad to help the weapons last longer and not require recalling out ot the tavern to fix them.

Also looking at the epic whirlwind greatsword.. weak hardness, that would break in 5minuits!

Spisey

10-10-2009, 04:56 AM

Excellent breakdown Shade!

Tuney

10-10-2009, 05:04 AM

This brings up the question... I wonder if Music of the dead/maker would work in epic level hehe.

Shade

10-10-2009, 05:08 AM

This brings up the question... I wonder if Music of the dead/maker would work in epic level hehe.

could be a great way to avoid those crazy trash mobs.. our bard never had it.

Mob saves were increased, tho from waht I saw spells were still landing fine, especially reflex save stuff.

sirgog

10-10-2009, 05:26 AM

Sounds good - although I wish that there were *some* charmable foes in there (you make it sound like there's none).

For example, the fact that the Frost Wolves in Prey on the Hunter can be charmed allows for different ways of taking on the fights in there - you can use Heightened Web, you can charm the dogs and use them as portable webs, you can CK or Enervate the giants until you can land Flesh to Stone, or you can just belt them up.

Making the lowest CR gnolls be only resistant to (rather than immune to) Charm effects, and doing likewise for the lowest CR undead, would IMO make these dungeons more fun. Maybe have Charm spells be fully functional, but drop their duration by 80%?

Oh to have a level 20 on Llamania...

Shade

10-10-2009, 05:29 AM

Sounds good - although I wish that there were *some* charmable foes in there (you make it sound like there's none).

Every monster in the quest from the weakest dogs to the most powerful boss has epic ward. It's described as heavy training against adventurers, so there ready for all our tactics.

I think they should keep the ward up on all mobs.. But give some mobs a low caster level version, which can be taken down with a good roll on greater dispell, then u can enervate, charm, stone, FoD, whatever u want. Just add another step to increase difficulty.

Mjesko

10-10-2009, 06:15 AM

Every monster in the quest from the weakest dogs to the most powerful boss has epic ward. It's described as heavy training against adventurers, so there ready for all our tactics.

I think they should keep the ward up on all mobs.. But give some mobs a low caster level version, which can be taken down with a good roll on greater dispell, then u can enervate, charm, stone, FoD, whatever u want. Just add another step to increase difficulty.

I think this is a great idea and should be applied to many monsters with immunities. It would be much more fun if a caster could disable the immunities with dispel magic or disjunction for around 10 seconds.

sirgog

10-10-2009, 06:23 AM

Every monster in the quest from the weakest dogs to the most powerful boss has epic ward. It's described as heavy training against adventurers, so there ready for all our tactics.

I think they should keep the ward up on all mobs.. But give some mobs a low caster level version, which can be taken down with a good roll on greater dispell, then u can enervate, charm, stone, FoD, whatever u want. Just add another step to increase difficulty.

Absolutely brilliant idea.

Give the easiest mobs a caster level 17 ward - dispellable with an average of three tries of Greater Dispel or 1.5-2 tries of Disjunction.
Give some of the midling ones a caster level 22 ward - takes 10 shots of Greater Dispel (average) or three Disjunctions.
And give the hardest mobs (orange-named bosses, etc) a caster level 27 ward. Good luck with that one.

Borror0

10-10-2009, 06:24 AM

(immune to death effects, charm, compulsions, energy drain and a few others iirc)
Eladrin, you remember that discussion we had about immunities being, overall, bad for the game? :(

I don't mind greater resistance against the effects you deem too powerful but simply preventing spellcaster for landing many spells is not fun since is basically means that we are removed a large quantity of options. While immunities can be a good tool to create a greater range of experience ("X does not work here so I'll have to find another solution"), you're abusing them.

Mjesko

10-10-2009, 06:31 AM

sirgog

10-10-2009, 06:36 AM

Yep that is exactly the reason why i think Shades idea of disabling the immunities of monsters should be applied to all monsters, because i think that the combination of immunities and over 10,000 hp monsters will make casters useless.

One is having (daydreaming) nightmares of fighting a mob like this that has a permanent Fire Shield on, one that's strong enough to deal retributive damage through resists.

*shudder*

ariel7

10-10-2009, 06:48 AM

sephiroth1084

10-10-2009, 07:05 AM

Eladrin, you remember that discussion we had about immunities being, overall, bad for the game? :(

I don't mind greater resistance against the effects you deem too powerful but simply preventing spellcaster for landing many spells is not fun since is basically means that we are removed a large quantity of options. While immunities can be a good tool to create a greater range of experience ("X does not work here so I'll have to find another solution"), you're abusing them.

Yup.

Epic should be hard, yes. Fights should take longer, yes.

But giving every monster more HP than the frost giants in Prey, and immunity to nearly everything just isn't fun. It means that every group is going to want a cleric/FvS, bard, and 4 high-dps melees (maybe an intimitank if the monsters hit very hard). Bard improves DPS and can haste and toss GH, which apparently is all that a caster would be doing in there anyway.

I like the dispelling idea--would mean that Disjunction would have a use other than breaking our equipment.

Can the devs please start seriously experimenting with alternate solutions to the abilities they have given us, rather than simply slapping on 10,000 HP and immunity to everything?

Gordo

10-10-2009, 07:16 AM

It seems to me that if "EPIC" essentially just means longer "beat down" times, then that is just making the quest epic instead of making an epic quest...

Final boss beat downs are one thing. Making everything (all stats, DR, AC, HP, etc...) inflated seems less an epic issue of your character's skill and more an issue of the player's epic patience.

sirgog

10-10-2009, 07:21 AM

From what I understand about the epic upgrades none of them are really worth it, IMHO. I mean woopity-do it's almost as good as dt and only applicable to loot in the one area? Still think shroud weapons AND accessories are so much better by a mile (though possibly upgrading torq and greenblade might be ok) and makes doing that grind not even close go worth it. Shade nearly broke greensteels after breaking other weapons (plural) and described the deaths as "many many". The thread talking about upgrade mentions numbers of color correct tokens in the 25 and 30 range some with being specifically raid tokens. All to have greater false life or protection +4 or something on a weapon likely to at least sometimes be unequipped?

Seriously, I'm quite possibly missing somethng here but it sounds like the only thing epicc is the quest difficulty and the time wasted to grind for little or no benefit.
Sorry for spelling iPhone not autocorrecting in all places

I'll still run these quests on Epic even if the loot all blows (I expect some will and some won't). Also we don't yet know how many epic tokens are awarded per run - it may not be just one.

The changes I'd like to see from what Shade says, however, are cutting back on the 'ooze factor' of breaking our weapons; and allowing us to dispel Epic Ward, or at least removing it from a minority of the foes in there.

sirgog

10-10-2009, 07:28 AM

...It means that every group is going to want a cleric/FvS, bard, and 4 high-dps melees (maybe an intimitank if the monsters hit very hard). Bard improves DPS and can haste and toss GH, which apparently is all that a caster would be doing in there anyway.
...

My first run of these, I'll be trying for a quite different group - one warchanter specced for melee DPS, three battleclerics or melee FvSes (optionally replace one with an Exploiter build or similar, if this is done make sure the Warchanter can use Heal scrolls without fail), one nuker/buffer arcane with a mean Web, and one hybrid Intimitank/melee DPS with trapsmithing (like the Hurtlocker build on the Rogue forums).

But that said, that's pretty much what I'd consider an optimal group for *any* 6-player content. Solid but unspectacular DPS, incredible survivability, and lots of utility.

SirShen

10-10-2009, 07:29 AM

sirgog

10-10-2009, 07:48 AM

I played the Wiz in the group i felt useless. All i could do was web then web then web. Buffs thats all i was good for.

Spells that worked - Firewall, Web, Disintegrate and Otto's Irresistible Dance.
All other spells are useless.

I really think Epic is made for fighters only. It was just stand back and watch the fighter kill mobs. I feel this game is starting to head that way now. Why not get rid of all classes and just have fighters and healers because thats all is really needed for epic.

Trash mobs with over 30,000 hp and Disintergrate doing about 80 at most you just burn up your mana.

Bleh, so it's as anti-Arcane as mod 9 content.

Come on Devs, listen to the players on immunities and make them dispellable.

Let Wizards deal with a mob by chaining Disjunction, Energy Drain, Enervate, Dominate Monster; let the Sorc have the same option (if they want to spend that many spell slots on non-damaging spells), or give them some way to deal non-trivial amounts of damage without burning mana.

Junts

10-10-2009, 07:53 AM

Bleh, so it's as anti-Arcane as mod 9 content.

Come on Devs, listen to the players on immunities and make them dispellable.

Let Wizards deal with a mob by chaining Disjunction, Energy Drain, Enervate, Dominate Monster; let the Sorc have the same option (if they want to spend that many spell slots on non-damaging spells), or give them some way to deal non-trivial amounts of damage without burning mana.

Mod9 is only anti-bad or poorly equipped arcanes, mine doesn't have any problems with it, nor do many, many others.

sirgog

10-10-2009, 08:06 AM

Mod9 is only anti-bad or poorly equipped arcanes, mine doesn't have any problems with it, nor do many, many others.

Haven't played my arcane much since Mod 9, so this is going by what others have said, but I've heard this from players I respect.

With the extreme saves mobs have, nuking, Web and Irresistable Dance are the only viable ways to deal with them in the new quests (I'm talking Elite here, on normal arcanes have other options) - but arcane nuking does less DPS than equivalently geared melees do (except in some burst situations like the boss of A New Invasion), and webs/dance are less effective at CC than an intimitank or a threat tank.

So basically Arcanes are quite a bit worse at filling a DPS role than melees, and quite a bit worse at filling a crowd control role than melees - and there are plenty of melee builds that can do both. I've found few situations in Mod 9 content where I was glad to have an arcane in the party, except in Tower of Despair.

Kalten_of_Amber

10-10-2009, 08:21 AM

BGP

10-10-2009, 08:34 AM

I was the cleric that stuck around.... Nothing too unmanageable in the way of dps taken. May be tougher with 2-3 tanks to heal. Displacement kept up would help... or fogs thrown down. Not much of the latter happened.

Not a lot of people on.... and we had a little dead weight for some of the time. Full, capped, well outfitted party can do it... but not an easy run.

SirShen

10-10-2009, 09:09 AM

TheJusticar

10-10-2009, 01:06 PM

Angelus_dead

10-10-2009, 01:16 PM

Come on Devs, listen to the players on immunities and make them dispellable.
And more precisely, give Greater Dispel Magic two or three icons for offensive and defensive uses, so you can dispel the enemy's buffs without also removing any debuffs applied by your own party.

Shade

10-10-2009, 01:32 PM

Updated with picture of immunities to get it straight.

I don't think the immunity list is so bad that it makes arcanes useless. I mean they don't have full mind-block abiliities like many mobs in amrath with crucible.. So things like hold monster, ottos dance, they all work.
There saves are high, but our caster mention he had a 32DC - which for epic lvls is really low considering it maxxes out at about 40-42DC with the top gear.

No reason why flesh to stone, acid fog, curse, symbol of pain and other debuffs and cc shouldnt work. Our wizard had a limited spell selection so we weren't able to try out much. Maybe i'll try my sorc next time, got him to 20 as well on lamannia.

Also they zero energy resistance, so nuking is effective.

In this particular quest, I think taking along an strong arcane would be great. Wall of fire does massive damage to undead (4X to mummies, for over 1000 every 2 seconds on a crit) and is very effective here. In our first encounter against the hex death wraiths i think we took them out with wall of fire quite fast, I certainly couldn't melee them well (60+AC, and my spectral gloves can't be found on this old version of my char)

Shade

10-10-2009, 01:34 PM

Fogs didnt work got immune when they walked into them.

That doesn't mean it never worked. Probably used acid fog on a golem, which are immune to acid.

Should work on all other mobs fine.

Solid fog may not work, find that tends to be ignored by very high lvl mobs , even without mantle for some reason. Doesnt work on horoth for example, who has no mantle.

TheJusticar

10-10-2009, 01:39 PM

Mod9 is only anti-bad or poorly equipped arcanes, mine doesn't have any problems with it, nor do many, many others.

Pffffff. It has nothing to do with gear. Quest design and 10K HP trash mobs is what makes Mod9 not very magic friendly (in a full group). Other than buff and crowd control bots, magi are second class citizens (this is a trend that started in mod6, btw).

Godspeed.

Shade

10-10-2009, 01:39 PM

My first run of these, I'll be trying for a quite different group - one warchanter specced for melee DPS, three battleclerics or melee FvSes (optionally replace one with an Exploiter build or similar, if this is done make sure the Warchanter can use Heal scrolls without fail), one nuker/buffer arcane with a mean Web, and one hybrid Intimitank/melee DPS with trapsmithing (like the Hurtlocker build on the Rogue forums).

But that said, that's pretty much what I'd consider an optimal group for *any* 6-player content. Solid but unspectacular DPS, incredible survivability, and lots of utility.

Melee warchanters, clerics and fvs? lol not on epic mode. Grazing hits aren't gonna cut it for dps Many of the mobs have 60+ AC, I had a hard time hitting them on my 60 str Barbarian with bard buffs and improved destruction going. Non-pure melee's aren't gonna be able to hit the things to contribute much.

They may be able to contribute a little on the caster types, but the melee type mobs in general had about +10 more AC, putting them beyond the reach of non-pure maxxed out melee.

Shade

10-10-2009, 01:42 PM

Pffffff. It has nothing to do with gear. Quest design and 10K HP trash mobs is what makes Mod9 not very magic friendly (in a full group). Other than buff and crowd control bots, magi are second class citizens (this is a trend that started in mod6, btw).

Godspeed.

Mod9?

Mod9 is Shavarath,, which interestingly features MUCH LOWER hitpoints them monsters in mod7 and 8.

Mod7 Devils in Subterrane - 5K HP (but can vorpal so there trivial)
Mod8 Giants in Reavers Elite - 3K HP
Mod9 Devils in Shavarath Elite - 1.5K HP
If anything they are lowering hitpoints. I cant comment on the mod10 quests, havent tried yet..

But epic mode should be another tier beyond anything else we have faced. I'd suggest around 6-8Khp trashmobs.

Nyvn

10-10-2009, 01:50 PM

Shade

10-10-2009, 02:01 PM

And more precisely, give Greater Dispel Magic two or three icons for offensive and defensive uses, so you can dispel the enemy's buffs without also removing any debuffs applied by your own party.

errr. Ok. But why have multiple icons? No one would ever use the dispell everything function if we were given a better one which keeps negative effects on enemies.

Then again that function would have to be given to enemies too, which imo would suck. In teh end fight of this quest, King raiyum casts greater dispell crazy fast like the abbot.. However it also removes the soul drain, so its a mixxed blessing kinda. Would hate to get fully dispelled and keep that soul drain.

Angelus_dead

10-10-2009, 02:21 PM

errr. Ok. But why have multiple icons? No one would ever use the dispell everything function if we were given a better one which keeps negative effects on enemies.
True, there would hardly ever be a need to intentionally choose what kind of dispel to use: you'd mainly just want a "Smart Dispel" which strips buffs from enemies and clears debuffs from allies. That would cover over 99% of needs.

However, there is the occasional possibility of a spell like Rage, Madstone, and Tenser which are both a bonus and penalty at the same time, or a new more powerful effect along those lines. Theoretically a player could desire more control when it comes to deciding if they're removed.

Shade

10-10-2009, 02:29 PM

True, there would hardly ever be a need to intentionally choose what kind of dispel to use: you'd mainly just want a "Smart Dispel" which strips buffs from enemies and clears debuffs from allies. That would cover over 99% of needs.

However, there is the occasional possibility of a spell like Rage, Madstone, and Tenser which are both a bonus and penalty at the same time, or a new more powerful effect along those lines. Theoretically a player could desire more control when it comes to deciding if they're removed.

For party dispells, you should just use break enchantment, which only removes negative effects.

Angelus_dead

10-10-2009, 02:33 PM

For party dispells, you should just use break enchantment, which only removes negative effects.
BE caps at d20+15, while Greater Dispel Magic goes up to d20+20. Presumably the enemies would have high caster levels requiring GDM if you want much of a chance.

Shade

10-10-2009, 03:02 PM

BE caps at d20+15, while Greater Dispel Magic goes up to d20+20. Presumably the enemies would have high caster levels requiring GDM if you want much of a chance.

True. Tho most enemy debufs have some kind of no-roll cure for them anyways. Only one I can think of that doesn't off the top of my head is symbol of pain - which can be hit with break enchantment before it applies, and dispelling persistant AOE effects has no roll, so even scrolls work 100%.

Xaearth

10-11-2009, 02:54 PM

(epic ward (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6516/screenshot02340.jpg) makes them immune to death effects, charm, energy drain and mindfog)

Note to devs: Perhaps making Greater Disruption work against epic undead might actually make it worth having a trip-positive greensteel? :cool:
With the rate that it procs, I seriously doubt it would be overpowered...
Then again, when you're whacking away at that many hp I suppose it is bound to trigger eventually... :rolleyes:

But considering undead are enough of a PITA to begin with, why not?

MrCow

10-11-2009, 11:39 PM

With the persistent dungeon bug I've been attempting to do this as a sole arcane at my leisure (being the dungeon hasn't closed out on me).

The front room for the most part was not too bad, but it was an exercise in tedium because I don't have a full set of tools at my disposal on Lamannia. I took critters one at a time to the entrance (using invisibility to help get them one at a time). Being Solid Fog for whatever reason was not slowing things down I used Waves of Exhaustion to keep things manageable and safe. My tactics were:

Hyena - CR 32ish
After exhaustion I used Sunburst to blind them, rendering them down to 5% movement speed (they have saves in the 22 range). From there, I set down a cloudkill to bestow acid damage and the rarely occurring (5% chance) CON damage. I used Otto's Resistable Dance Extended and Heightened to cause it to dance for a set time of 2 minutes which I used to get Divine Power, Haste, and Rage on and whacked it with a Wounding Dagger. Being the dog was exhausted, blinded, and dancing (-6 AC and no DEX bonus to AC) I was able to hit it decently, as it had ~47 AC in that condition. Once it went helpless I took out two Heavy Picks and cleaned it up.

They also have Fire Resist 150 and Cold Resist 150, so Wall of Fire only works if it is a critical.

Gnoll Melee and Gnoll Archers - CR 38 and CR 40
After Exhausted I just kited it through a mix of 3 Walls of Fire and a cloudkill. About 9500 HP and took about 2-3 minutes a piece. The melees hit in the 70's for damage, so shield blocking didn't work well for them, but the archers did roughly 16's per arrow, so they were low on the threat list. I couldn't reliably land my DC 31 spells, so I just stuck with this method.

Gnoll Arcanes - CR 38
For some reason they didn't cast any spells and acted like Gnoll Archers, so it was just another 3 minute 250 SP monster.

Gnoll Divine - CR 38
I only had to deal with one of these, but it was very dangerous. The character I was using only has a reflex save in the mid 10's and failed almost every reflex save on cometfall (which hit in the low 400's), causing instant death. Just more Wall of Fire and dodging of spells.

Den Mother Yheeroua
Did not scale with epic difficulty and went down in a single Cone of Cold. Granted 88 XP, which considering Epic Difficulty has no EXP for completion is kinda interesting. ;)

With the initial 20 things dead it was time to journey onward into the lands of the undead. I more or less avoided what damage I could from melee things and whatnot while hopping around Walls of Fire to burn the skeletons and ignore the clay golems. The skeletons seemed to have about 12000 HP, so after about 1:40 they died.

Eternal Skeleton
Hits in the range of the low 60's. They were generally only nasty if they clogged a doorway. Otherwise, they were harmless to the standard arcane tactics.

Eternal Archer
Hits in the range of 15's, which is enough damage to mitigate while shield blocking but getting some damage to activate guard effects, like Haste Guard and Concordant Opposition. I generally left them alone if I could as they acted as a SP battery when I didn't want to recall.

Eternal Arcane
Nasty for me. ~DC 32 Feeblemind will take a caster out of commission fairly easily if they completely tanked WIS. All of the spells they throw are the same as before (Force Missiles, Chain Lightning, Wall of Fire, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feeblemind) except they are as-if Maximized and Empowered.

Clay Golem
I just ignored them as best as I could. They hit in the 75's for melee and judging by the lack of damage they take in the whirling blade traps (which do 40's) I suspect they have DR 50/Bludgeoning and Adamantine. After they sit in the blade traps long enough they tend to go berserk and attack other things, making for a fine distraction.

Because I had no fear of the dungeon closing with the persistent dungeon bug I went out to get the seals for the djinni and effreti, so I didn't fight them.

Hami the Jackle - CR 42
The first scaled boss I fought. Namely I just ran around in circles as he burned in Walls of Fire. After about 6 seconds into the fight 2 Eternal Arcanes spawned, which made for mass confusion as they were spamming Wall of Fire as I was, so I ran into quite a few of the ones they put down taking ~30 damage a piece. I think Hami had around 75000 HP.

Hafez the Lion - CR 42
Being he is clerical I was dreading this fight (one-shot death cometfall), but instead, Hafez decided to chase me for 3 seconds, climbed onto his sarcophagus, and stood their as brain-dead as a zombie as he couldn't figure out how to climb down. Just like Hami, 2 Eternal Arcanes came up, which I took into a different room to take down.

Raiyum - CR 42
He is the Black Abbot reincarnated into a 5 foot form, minus the disjunction (casts Disintegration, Horrid Wilting, Chain Lightning, Greater Shout, Greater Dispel Magic, Delayed Blast Fireball, Mantle of Invulnerability, all as-if Maximized and Empowered). I'm still trying to take him down as we speak, little by little. He seems to be immune to disintegration and sunburst for some reason, which right now leaves me with only Meteor Swarm to do pathetic damage to him. He will die, eventually... :D

Dread Hex Wraith - CR 42
When Raiyum's battle starts up he will summon 3 of these nasties. They do 20ish on a melee hit and 150 damage via an ability called Soul Crush, a curse that blocks divine and repair magics. Also, they have Fire Resist 150, but at 7000 HP they go down reasonably for an arcane (as they are undead and still take double damage on Wall of Fire). Raiyum will summon a second set of 3 after the first set dies. I've yet to see anymore after that.

*Notes of Interest*

I found one of these epic item scrolls after a clay golem smashed open a sarcophagus.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00025-2.jpg

Also, at one point I got the semi-bright idea to let the berserk clay golems attack Raiyum, but it appears they can be paralyzed by a lich. ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00027.jpg

How sad, they were doing fine damage until they went all stiff.

One thing I am most worried about for Epic difficulty is that with HP and AC where they stand, the tedium will block the fun out of the difficulty. It currently passes beyond the point of challenge to where it will be a novelty.

Shade

10-12-2009, 12:02 AM

One thing I am most worried about for Epic difficulty is that with HP and AC where they stand, the tedium will block the fun out of the difficulty. It currently passes beyond the point of challenge to where it will be a novelty.

Wow great notes.

Think your underestimating the power of max DPS melee tho. I could take down a 10kHP trash mob in roughly 60 seconds with my rather old lammania version of my barbarian. With my fully geared live version I imagine I could cut that down to 50 seconds or less. Bring 2 other melee with similar dps in there, and your looking at taking down the mobs in 20 seconds each. Still a long time for a dungeon with so many monsters, but there are tactics availaboe to skip most of the encounters here im sure your aware of.

Anyways, invite my barb to your instance and get me some heal scrolls going andi ll take raiyum down for you in about 10 mins if theres no wraiths. Your arcane able to use heal scrolls?

MrCow

10-12-2009, 12:04 AM

Your arcane able to use heal scrolls?

Old character, UMD score around 26, I can't keep ya up. ;)

MrCow

10-12-2009, 12:46 AM

The quest completed, but due to bugs relating to Hafez and Hami, the purple epic chest was not accessible in the room that requires the completion of all 3 wings. :(

FluffyCalico

10-12-2009, 12:48 AM

The quest completed, but due to bugs relating to Hafez and Hami, the purple epic chest was not accessible in the room that requires the completion of all 3 wings. :(

So you are saying if one of them bugs might as well recall and restart as you are boned? :eek:

Shade

10-12-2009, 12:50 AM

Yea thx for the invite. First epic completion heh. Mrcow solo'd the whole quest (wow),, i just came to speed up the boss fight for him a bit. Double stack destruction + frenzy dps, and some silver flame pots to keep myself up made it fairly quick.

Pretty lame we got no epic loot (cept the scroll he found). I thought it was a guarenteed type drop in the end chest.. But that only had garbage (lvl18+ garbage)

End reward doesn't scale either which is dumb. lvl6 items.

MrCow

10-12-2009, 12:52 AM

So you are saying if one of them bugs might as well recall and restart as you are boned?

On both Hami and Hefaz the floor did not break after they were destroyed. The it seems that the floor must be destroyed in those rooms to trigger the unlocking of the optional treasure room.

So, yeah, in the current state if you are after the epic chest you would probably need to restart.

Shade

10-12-2009, 12:53 AM

So you are saying if one of them bugs might as well recall and restart as you are boned? :eek:

Yea after you killl a boss, check the lights on the treasure room.. 1 should darken, if it didnt.. no treasure =/ For his run looked like it was both hami and havez - as the floor never fell out for either. But the top skull did darken after raiyum went down.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2193/screenshot02345.jpg

For our run - Havez took only 2 attempts, and went down quick with no bugs and the floor broke, and skull probably dakrened (tho i never looked).. So the bug doesn't always happen at least.

Tho i imagine the scrolls at least have a chance to drop in any chest (and aparently breakbles too!)

Shade

10-12-2009, 12:54 AM

On both Hami and Hefaz the floor did not break after they were destroyed. The it seems that the floor must be destroyed in those rooms to trigger the unlocking of the optional treasure room.

So, yeah, in the current state if you are after the epic chest you would probably need to restart.

Did you kill them inside there room? (I know you said one just stayed in his coffin, the other?_

MrCow

10-12-2009, 12:56 AM

Did you kill them inside there room?

Yes, both were killed inside their rooms of origin.

Hami was killed as normal, and Hafez decided to walk on top of his sarcophagus and bug out.

Shade

10-12-2009, 01:02 AM

Oh yea someone asked about Favor:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6082/screenshot02348.jpg

.. Yea unfortunately it doesn't give favor. But it does tack on the purply epic tag onto your compedium. Me and Mrcow both had elite already but I imagine it provides the same favor as elite, even if you had never completed it before.

FluffyCalico

10-12-2009, 01:04 AM

Me and Mrcow both had elite already but I imagine it provides the same favor as elite, even if you had never completed it before.

Negative you have done it on elite and be 20 in order to go in on epic. At least that is what t said.

Shade

10-12-2009, 01:20 AM

Negative you have done it on elite and be 20 in order to go in on epic. At least that is what t said.

Nah, the only requirement to enter is level20.

1 person in the party needs to have it on elite to unlock epic, per regular ddo rules. Not all party members.

Angelus_dead

10-12-2009, 01:27 AM

With the persistent dungeon bug I've been attempting to do this as a sole arcane at my leisure
You might want to add a summary as to if this amount of monster durability will be fun for any significant number of players. (Oh, you did add that now)

I'm still trying to take him down as we speak, little by little. He seems to be immune to disintegration and sunburst for some reason, which right now leaves me with only Meteor Swarm to do pathetic damage to him.
Sounds like an Epic Mantle of Invulernability, preventing spells of level 8 and below...

How sad, they were doing fine damage until they went all stiff.
Can you target them with GDM to release it?

FluffyCalico

10-12-2009, 01:29 AM

Nah, the only requirement to enter is level20.

1 person in the party needs to have it on elite to unlock epic, per regular ddo rules. Not all party members.

Ah, Ts post was alittle misleading then, but thats ok... I had not been in those quests in forever so doing them on elite on 5 different toons each this weekend was good practice and a much needed refresher on those quests :D

MrCow

10-12-2009, 01:32 AM

Sounds like an Epic Mantle of Invulernability, preventing spells of level 8 and below...

Nah, just old bugs. Sunburst never worked on things using Mantle of Invulnerability that were undead because either the blindness portion or the insta-death portion are flagged as level 1-4. Staff of Arcane Power's Ray of Enfeeblement (5th level) penetrated the mantle just fine (even if it has no actual effect on Raiyum, it proves it is just a standard Mantle of Invulnerability).

Can you target them with GDM to release it?

I could, but I highly doubt I'm breaking the effect of a CR 42 critter with any form of dispel at level 20. I'll give it a shot though if I ever arrive in that situation and have the tools on hand.

Aussieee

10-12-2009, 04:26 AM

The quest completed, but due to bugs relating to Hafez and Hami, the purple epic chest was not accessible in the room that requires the completion of all 3 wings. :(
Can I come along for next completion? Just let me know 2 min before you done :) Or I can stand back and watch you how you doing it :D

FluffyCalico

10-12-2009, 04:27 AM

Can I come along for next completion? Just let me know 2 min before you done :) Or I can stand back and watch you how you doing it :D

You could at least have Fergie sing him some songs while he kills it all. :D

Aussieee

10-12-2009, 04:39 AM

You could at least have Fergie sing him some songs while he kills it all. :D
:( Only capped one is Aussie and she can be alot more useful than Fergie.

Tyrande

10-12-2009, 10:12 AM

One is having (daydreaming) nightmares of fighting a mob like this that has a permanent Fire Shield on, one that's strong enough to deal retributive damage through resists.

*shudder*

I don't think fire shield: cold/fire deal enough damage and doesn't work with maximize or empower.

1d6 +1 per caster level doesn't cut it for monsters with 10,000 hp.

They need to implement spells where it can be used unlimited times per rest without resource drainage much like a shroud enabled weapon does.

sirgog

10-12-2009, 10:28 AM

I don't think fire shield: cold/fire deal enough damage and doesn't work with maximize or empower.

1d6 +1 per caster level doesn't cut it for monsters with 10,000 hp.

They need to implement spells where it can be used unlimited times per rest without resource drainage much like a shroud enabled weapon does.

I was talking about mobs that cast Cold Shield and deal 50+ damage per tick with it - imagine trying to punch through that... (Like Sor'Jek in SoS hard/elite when one mephit is up - they do far more damage than you can resist)

I'm going to shut up before I give the Devs any ideas.

Tyrande

10-12-2009, 01:43 PM

Mod9?

Mod9 is Shavarath,, which interestingly features MUCH LOWER hitpoints them monsters in mod7 and 8.

Mod7 Devils in Subterrane - 5K HP (but can vorpal so there trivial)
Mod8 Giants in Reavers Elite - 3K HP
Mod9 Devils in Shavarath Elite - 1.5K HP
If anything they are lowering hitpoints. I cant comment on the mod10 quests, havent tried yet..

But epic mode should be another tier beyond anything else we have faced. I'd suggest around 6-8Khp trashmobs.

Shade, I think he is talking about sorcerers and wizards not being able to crowd control and/or kill them with magic with the crazy saves and immunities that cannot be dispelled.

samho

10-12-2009, 05:18 PM

When I go in and test Sap with my sap (on my battle mage) today, I found couple thing interesting:

(1) sap not work, the gnoll simply ignore them (so aye, I don't know which combat feat really work for them, since the non-save sap been ignored and according to shade, even a very high strength barbarian have trouble to trip them down). Effectivelly turn most non-DPS melee thing useless. A bad move imo.

(2) Intimidate watermark on Gnoll in the entrance was 70. My 51 Intimidate battlemage has to roll 19 and higher (confirm as dice roll, no size penalty) to make intimiate works.

(3) After playing around with my limited selection of spell, I do notice one of my prismatic spray instant kill a Hyena -- via Violet beam. Due to my low charisma stat, I couldn't duplicate this effect again ( after try to use the shrine outside 3 times, I've getting tired and decide to try it next time). Can anyone confirm that? I'm pretty sure it's not the negative energy type one, and elemental type beam like fire, acid, cold, and electric works fine.

bobbryan2

10-12-2009, 05:24 PM

(2) Intimidate watermark on Gnoll in the entrance was 70. My 51 Intimidate battlemage has to roll 19 and higher (confirm as dice roll, no size penalty) to make intimiate works.

So... what is that... 8 higher than the hound on elite? Equal with the size bonus included?

That's a heck of a number to achieve.

Angelus_dead

10-12-2009, 05:28 PM

They need to implement spells where it can be used unlimited times per rest without resource drainage much like a shroud enabled weapon does.
I was gonna suggest that Epic Rest Shrines give you 10x the normal number of spellpoints, which can exceed your cap.

That's only half-joking... that's seriously looking like what it would take for casters to start to make a dent.

frederjoe1

10-12-2009, 05:42 PM

MrCow

10-12-2009, 06:08 PM

Intimidate watermark on Gnoll in the entrance was 70. My 51 Intimidate battlemage has to roll 19 and higher (confirm as dice roll, no size penalty) to make intimiate works.

That is a scary thing, especially because the intimidate formula for the DC breakpoint is:

Intimidate DC = Monster HD + WIS Modifier + 10

That puts the gnolls at having somewhere between 38 HD with a WIS 54 to 60 HD with a WIS of 10.

Riggs

10-13-2009, 04:54 AM

Yeah those are some crazy numbers. And no guarenteed drops for epic items?

Epic in pnp = level 21+. Epic DDO = level 20...doubled to 40.

MadFloyd

10-13-2009, 02:54 PM

Gornn

10-13-2009, 02:56 PM

Dylos_Moon

10-13-2009, 03:38 PM

We've made some changes to Epic difficulty that will go up on Lamannia in the next day or so.

Anything else changing in this lamannia update? like say including some PrEs?

Hendrik

10-13-2009, 03:47 PM

Thanks for all the feedback - it's much appreciated.

We've made some changes to Epic difficulty that will go up on Lamannia in the next day or so.

New new version will include a drastic reduction of mob hit points and changes to spell effectiveness.

We're still not 'done' per se, but we think it's a lot more playable now. Look forward to your feedback.

Just don't go to far in the other direction. Still want a decent challenge but not the crazy Epic version out there now.

Shandi

10-13-2009, 04:14 PM

thanks for listening to us and adjusting :D I can say as a primary caster that I am excited to see that spell effectivness and monster Hit points are being adjusted!

Thanks ! :D

Mjesko

10-14-2009, 05:18 AM

FluffyCalico

10-14-2009, 05:20 AM

Thanks for all the feedback - it's much appreciated.

We've made some changes to Epic difficulty that will go up on Lamannia in the next day or so.

New new version will include a drastic reduction of mob hit points and changes to spell effectiveness.

We're still not 'done' per se, but we think it's a lot more playable now. Look forward to your feedback.

This is good as it needed to be done. But for the love of god please don't tell me that its now a cake walk like everything else.

Thank you for taking out the unfun hardness, but please add in some fun hardness. I don't want epic to be easy or not fun. Make it hard yet fun please

Hendrik

10-14-2009, 08:49 AM

This is good as it needed to be done. But for the love of god please don't tell me that its now a cake walk like everything else.

Thank you for taking out the unfun hardness, but please add in some fun hardness. I don't want epic to be easy or not fun. Make it hard yet fun please

I agree 110%

Epic has a TON of possibilities and really enjoy what it has to offer. But there seems to a break point where Epic no longer is Epic Fun but Epic God, Make this End now! Seems to be around the 1.5~2hr mark.

I have hopes that some adjustments are made for Epic to still retain the challenge so many are asking for, yet not make Epic an exercise in tedium.

Please MadFloyd, keep the challenge intact. "We" need it. But be careful not to make things to easy. It is going to be very difficult to find that middle ground to make Epic challenging, fun, enjoyable, and repeatable.

Keep up the great work on Epic MadFloyd - I like what you are doing. Just some tweaks are in order and there is a vast amount of well done feedback here to draw from.

SockMonkey

10-14-2009, 06:26 PM

Well, thought I would try epic today so a guild mate and I ran in there and started.. ya I know full well 2 people was not going happen but wanted to see what was what. We were joined by a bard shortly in quest but because Lam is a waste land thats all we could get.

lvl 20 Barb all kitted out with best goodies
lvl 20 FvS not so well kitted out but decent.
lvl 20 Bard no idea what he had, looked like a GS repeater but who knows.

Gnolls - Well other than the artarded HP's it wasnt too bad especially after the bard started dancing them.

Undead - well we went through like a typical WK run, killing what you need to and running past the rest. And that was working fine, right until we ran into the Uber shade death gang. Yup first wipe, but thats all good its what you get for running in an epic quest. One thing is they all seemed to die on thier own while we were agast in our combat logs going... how much cold damage?!? and they heal curse you?!? So it is intended as a cool little trap for the zerg croud.. kudos I like it. Mob wise again redonkulous hp's and with all the immunities made it for a some what tiresom fight but hey I guess its epic. I found other than the named mobs the golems were the worst by far, and made for a nasty long intense fight. several mana pots later it got done.

Hammi the Sammich - well killed the Djnn it was rough but doable. Didnt have the seals to isnta gib em do they work? if so I know I will be farming some. so we healed up then rushed in, only to be greeted by 2 arcanes AND hammy. well that sucked, im pretty sure we wiped once or twice there. but we got him.

Other named - Well getting to him wasnt to bad, got a secret door chest, inside was a +2 dex tome and a seal or shard or "silken mail" which I happened to be wearing. *first epic item coincidence I was wearing it?* The Efreet guardian was insane with his fire walls. the whole room was FULL with I got a screen but I was running and spam healing. killed him ok fine lets buff before we go in... no buff I know protecs vs 550pt comet fall. WAY over kill on that one Devs, is this your way of telling us evasion or nothing? wipe, 2nd wipe and out of time.

So it took 3 people 3 h ours to get half way though this quest. It was intense, frustrating but kind of fun. Would I do it again? ya we hope the bug is still active and we can continue were we left off. Would I ever PUG this? not a chance.

MrCow

10-14-2009, 08:50 PM

got a secret door chest, inside was a +2 dex tome and a seal or shard or "silken mail"

So now we know that the Seals (or possibly shards) can drop in any chest of the dungeon.

no buff I know protecs vs 550pt comet fall. WAY over kill on that one Devs

I suspect there is something wrong with the cometfalls as the moment because it is the only spell that does x5 damage from the basic version of the spell, as all others do x2.5 more damage. They should be doing closer to the damage of the blade barriers monsters throw in there (175pt damage range).

Shade

10-14-2009, 10:25 PM

Other named - Well getting to him wasnt to bad, got a secret door chest, inside was a +2 dex tome and a seal or shard or "silken mail" which I happened to be wearing. *first epic item coincidence I was wearing it?*

Probably. I was wearing the marilith chain in chains of flame, and a gnoll dropped a scroll of the marilith chain for me.

Got a screenshot around of that item? It was bound to account on aquire corect?

Shade

10-14-2009, 10:31 PM

I suspect there is something wrong with the cometfalls as the moment because it is the only spell that does x5 damage from the basic version of the spell, as all others do x2.5 more damage. They should be doing closer to the damage of the blade barriers monsters throw in there (175pt damage range).

Yea I think it's a global bug or something upping there damage, does seem a bit excessive.. My barbarian did survive a few of those, but eventually hit hits the clerics and thats pretty much game over for them. IIRC the save DC wasn't totally unmanagable tho, I remember something like 2 + 34 save with gh, uncanny dodge going. (but no evasion on my barb so still hurts allot) Soon after they dispell my GH and my uncanny dodge runs out, im in trouble.

I mean the walls of fires are more in line with player type max/emp ones, maybe wihtout enhancements.

The cometfalls? Hmm even a max/emp cometfall only does ~250 for my fvs. About 480 crits with the skiver. Perhaps 500ish crits with the archmage set. I took a few SS, they weren't all 550+,. one was 480 one was 497, so maybe 520 average.

So they seem to be about the same as maxxed gear fvs cometfalls, except they always crit.

And other things that cast cometfall similar do much higher then basic damage most arcane type mobs do. From your basic gnoll on normal in crucible doing 200 dmg.. To your cometall in enter the kobold doing 300.. Still beyond the normal range for the spell.

Burem

10-15-2009, 01:07 AM

And other things that cast cometfall similar do much higher then basic damage most arcane type mobs do. From your basic gnoll on normal in crucible doing 200 dmg.. To your cometall in enter the kobold doing 300.. Still beyond the normal range for the spell.

While I understand why you've added the information about player spell damage it's really a rather useless metric. I can't spam cometfall for three and a half hours (assuming something could survive) but a mob can, and he doesn't need mana for the rest of the quest (even if they did happen to have limited casting).

Shade

10-15-2009, 01:28 AM

While I understand why you've added the information about player spell damage it's really a rather useless metric. I can't spam cometfall for three and a half hours (assuming something could survive) but a mob can, and he doesn't need mana for the rest of the quest (even if they did happen to have limited casting).

It's a perfectly valid metric actually.

Because any numbers beyond what we can do on spells that cap at lvl15 like these - breaks DDO rules for spell damage, which is something almost never done in the history of the game.

A mob doing more damage with polar ray would be understandable, they could be caster level25, while we are limited to 20.. Spells capped at lvl15 are harder to explain without bugs.

bobbryan2

10-15-2009, 03:40 AM

It's a perfectly valid metric actually.

Because any numbers beyond what we can do on spells that cap at lvl15 like these - breaks DDO rules for spell damage, which is something almost never done in the history of the game.

A mob doing more damage with polar ray would be understandable, they could be caster level25, while we are limited to 20.. Spells capped at lvl15 are harder to explain without bugs.

They probably just have double secret maximize.

MrCow

10-15-2009, 03:22 PM

I haven't gotten far in, but it looks like most critters got a CR reduction of 3 and roughly an HP cut of 30% or so. The Den Mother now scales to epic qualities as well. Cometfall is still highly lethal as well.

MrCow

10-15-2009, 03:57 PM

Bah, one of the skull-handle levers was missing and I couldn't get up the Southwest wing.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00060.jpg

Location of r1 lx32 ly96 i2049 cInside ox63.16 oy36.03 oz-355.98 h 355.8

Thrudh

10-15-2009, 04:04 PM

They probably just have double secret maximize.

LOL... I just can't help giving rep to awesome 1-liners.... :)

404error

10-15-2009, 04:59 PM

Try again Mr. Cow. I am looking at the lever on Lamannia right now. Don't scare me like this.

Riggs

10-15-2009, 05:18 PM

MrCow

10-15-2009, 05:43 PM

Try again Mr. Cow. I am looking at the lever on Lamannia right now. Don't scare me like this.

The lever appeared sometime after I decided to meander over to the other two wings (Northwest and Northeast). I have no clue what triggered it to be either visible or appear. All I know is that this was the first wing I went to climb and it was not there. I killed Hami (Northeast/North wing in my setup) and started the Raiyum fight at least once (in the Northwest/West wing in my setup) before I looked again to see it magically appeared sometime between all those events.

I made sure to get a screenshot of the lack of a lever because I thought I was hallucinating at first (or something similar :)).

404error

10-15-2009, 05:55 PM

Get some sleep cow your hallucinations are spreading into your screenshots =P

sirgog

10-15-2009, 06:29 PM

Get some sleep cow your hallucinations are spreading into your screenshots =P

LOL and +1 rep.

MrCow

10-15-2009, 06:34 PM

Finally, some screenshot-age of one of the epic item seals:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00061.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00063-1.jpg

Get some sleep cow your hallucinations are spreading into your screenshots =P

Sound advice, but I'm going to have to decline. Insanity born of sleep deprivation can make things fun at times. :)

MrCow

10-15-2009, 07:52 PM

Ok, now that I've done both a complete run (minus the epic chests again) with the changes it is time for a bit more feedback.

Overall
Things inside have about 5000-8000 HP, which is a fairly drastic but very welcome change from the 10000 HP. Things still take some time to kill and unleash their unchanged lethality, but it doesn't feel like I need to get out a calculator and figure out how long it will take for things to start dying.

Also, it seems that most things had their saves brought down a few points (from ~27 average to ~24 average, rough estimate) and most elemental resistances were cut down too (the hyenas and dread hex wraiths went from fire resist 150 to fire resist 75 for example, and Raiyum lost his immunity to fire). I'm kinda indifferent if this was needed, so I'll abstain from a yay or nay on this.

The actual bosses seemed to have a large hit to HP as well, going from what used to be the 70000+ range down to the 40000+ range. Considering all of the bosses have lackies that aren't found in lesser difficulties (some of which can be nastier than the boss itself) this is fine. A lot of death can still happen in a couple minutes.

The Gnoll Entrance Chamber
The gnolls took about half the time to kill, but being they still hit in the 50's-70's or cometfall in the 350+'s I still took my time with them. The hyenas can be a royal pain if they decided to go into infinite run-away mode and hide and I think it actually took me longer to kill the 3 hyenas because I had to smoke them out to reveal them, slow them, stop them, and take them down than the other 18 gnolls.

The Denmother now scales, and I think had around 15000 HP or so. I didn't pay too much attention. Either way, she is much more epic-like than before. :)

The Undead Halls
Generally low threat as an arcane because everything burns pretty well, but I still had a couple nasty deaths from feeblemind, chain lightning, and the couple of times the mummies dispelled death ward and hit me with slay living.

The Gatekeepers now scale as well, so it forced me to fight them down (while on the last run they failed to scale and just instantly burned to death, allowing me to pass by swiftly).

The clay golems are still probably the most brutal of the basic enemies in the Undead area due to their DR, strong hits, and construct qualities. I also had quite a few tossing Melf's Acid Arrow, Acid Rain, and Acid Fog this time.

Even though the traps aren't all lethal, the elemental lever traps still tend to kill me in as they double or triple hit me in the 170 range. Enough to kill many folks while still being passable by hardy/evasive folks, this gets my seal of approval.

Mummy Bugged Floors
It took me a bit on Hafez and Hami, but I realized that if you do not kill them in their room of origin then the floor does not break in their room and you will not be permitted entry to the epic chest vault. Because the doors no longer slam shut on activating them this bug has been created.

Raiyum
He still has the potent chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, and disintegration. This time, though, if I was close to him he did tend to negative energy touch me a lot. Oddly enough, his paralytic touch will paralyze a Warforged, regardless of our immunity. I have no clue if this is intended or not.

Also, Meteor Swarm was still among the only spell I could get to damage Raiyum as he is still blocking most disintegration and all sunbursts with his mantle of invulnerability. For some reason he is also immune to Acid Fog. I did not have Incendiary Cloud to test with.

This run was much more palatable with both the overall slashing of total HP and the fixing of scaling other monsters up to epic quality.

sirgog

10-15-2009, 08:12 PM

What's the situation with Epic Ward? Did they take on the overwhelming feedback about making it dispellable?

MrCow

10-15-2009, 08:15 PM

What's the situation with Epic Ward? Did they take on the overwhelming feedback about making it dispellable?

I didn't bother checking, but it really didn't hinder me much anyhow. After module 7 and on I've gotten used to culling my desire to charm/death-magic particular things, and I can understand the reason to keep energy drain/mind fog off the list of usable magic so that monster saves still mean a thing.

Angelus_dead

10-15-2009, 08:50 PM

I can understand the reason to keep energy drain/mind fog off the list of usable magic so that monster saves still mean a thing.
But if they're immune to most spells involving a saving throw, then what do their saves mean?

Is Reflex all that matters for them? Is this an attempt to give Dark monk finishers some value?

Riggs

10-15-2009, 09:08 PM

I didn't bother checking, but it really didn't hinder me much anyhow. After module 7 and on I've gotten used to culling my desire to charm/death-magic particular things, and I can understand the reason to keep energy drain/mind fog off the list of usable magic so that monster saves still mean a thing.

Making things immune to level 9 spells is still really punishing.

"Hey look you get a new mod with level 9 spells! Hey look all the hard stuff is immune to them!" yay.

Level 9 spells are supposed to be 1 step below godhood, not "I need to chip away at a 50k boss with the small bludgeoning damage on meteor swarm for 10 minutes"

And great work figuring out all the numbers as usual heh.

Shade

10-15-2009, 09:19 PM

But if they're immune to most spells involving a saving throw, then what do their saves mean?

Is Reflex all that matters for them? Is this an attempt to give Dark monk finishers some value?

If you read mr cows post, you'd see that they aren't. He stated their saves were lowered, and are at about 24. Tons of spells work fine, just not for your average caster, you need to specialize and get your stats up.

A truely maxxed out epic caster can bring his DC's up to over 40, giving all his spells a very high chance to land.

The changes sound inline with what I suggested, so i'm happy with that. I will go test it out this weekend when more ppl are around.

Angelus_dead

10-15-2009, 09:27 PM

If you read mr cows post, you'd see that they aren't.
Oh? Where in the post does he indicate that the immunities have been removed from Epic Ward?

HeavenlyCloud

10-15-2009, 11:10 PM

Just did it with a full party and this quest was just very very very fun! Great work Turbine!

Didn't try it before the changes so no idea how much harder it was before but this one did seem just epic. (Just right on the spot with difficulty)

Got a lot of seals, no scrolls and no shards.

MrCow

10-15-2009, 11:24 PM

But if they're immune to most spells involving a saving throw, then what do their saves mean?

Is Reflex all that matters for them? Is this an attempt to give Dark monk finishers some value?

There are many offensive-based spells that still have an effect in epic (regardless of the situational use of some of them). I gave it a bit of color coding to show the rainbow of saves that still have purpose.

A

* Acid Blast - Reflex
* Acid Fog - No Save
* Acid Rain - No Save
* Acid Spray - Reflex

B

* Ball Lightning - Reflex
* Bane - Will
* Bestow Curse - Will
* Blade Barrier - Reflex
* Blindness - Fort
* Burning Blood - Fort
* Burning Hands - Reflex

C

* Chain Lightning - Reflex
* Chain Missiles - No Save
* Chaos Hammer - Will
* Chill Touch - Fort
* Cloudkill - Fort
* Cometfall - Reflex
* Command - Will
* Cone of Cold - Reflex
* Contagion - Fort
* Crushing Despair - Will
* Cure Critical Wounds - Will
* Cure Critical Wounds, Mass - Will
* Cure Light Wounds - Will
* Cure Light Wounds, Mass - Will
* Cure Moderate Wounds - Will
* Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass - Will
* Cure Serious Wounds - Will
* Cure Serious Wounds, Mass - Will

D

* Deific Vengeance - Will
* Delayed Blast Fireball - Reflex
* Disintegrate - Fort
* Doom - Will

E

* Electric Loop - Reflex/Will

F

* Fear - Will
* Feeblemind - Will
* Fire Shield - No Save
* Fire Storm - Reflex
* Fire Trap - Reflex
* Fireball - Reflex
* Flame Strike - Reflex
* Flaming Sphere - Reflex
* Flesh to Stone - Fort
* Fog Cloud - No Save
* Force Missiles - No Save
* Frost Lance - Fort

G

* Ghoul Touch - Fort
* Glitterdust - Will
* Glyph of Warding - Reflex
* Grease - Reflex
* Greater Command - Will
* Greater Glyph of Warding - Reflex
* Greater Shout - Fort

H

* Harm - Will
* Heal - Will
* Heal, Mass - Will
* Hold Animal - Will
* Hold Monster - Will
* Hold Monster, Mass - Will
* Hold Person - Will
* Hold Person, Mass - Will
* Holy Smite - Will
* Horrid Wilting - Fort
* Hypnotic Pattern - Will
* Hypnotism - Will

I

* Ice Storm - No Save
* Incendiary Cloud - Reflex
* Inflict Critical Wounds - Will
* Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass - Will
* Inflict Light Wounds - Will
* Inflict Light Wounds, Mass - Will
* Inflict Moderate Wounds - Will
* Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass - Will
* Inflict Serious Wounds - Will
* Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass - Will

L

* Lightning Bolt - Reflex

M

* Magic Missile - No Save
* Melf's Acid Arrow - No Save
* Meteor Swarm - Reflex

N

* Niac's Cold Ray - Reflex
* Nimbus of Light - No Save

O

* Obscuring Mist - No Save
* Order's Wrath - Will
* Otiluke's Freezing Sphere - Reflex
* Otto's Irresistible Dance - No Save
* Otto's Resistible Dance - Will
* Otto's Sphere of Dancing - Will

P

* Poison - Fort
* Polar Ray - No Save
* Power Word: Blind - No Save
* Power Word: Kill - No Save
* Power Word: Stun - No Save
* Prayer - No Save
* Prismatic Ray - Fort/Reflex/ - Will
* Prismatic Spray - Fort/Reflex/ - Will

R

* Ray of Enfeeblement - No Save
* Ray of Exhaustion - Fort

S

* Scorching Ray - No Save
* Searing Light - No Save
* Shocking Grasp - No Save
* Shout - Fort
* Sleet Storm - Reflex
* Slow - Will
* Snare - Strength
* Snowball Swarm - Reflex
* Solid Fog - No Save
* Soundburst - Fort
* Spike Growth - Reflex
* Stinking Cloud - Fort
* Sunburst - Reflex
* Symbol of Fear - Will
* Symbol of Flame - Reflex
* Symbol of Pain - Fort
* Symbol of Stunning - Will
* Symbol of Weakness - Fort

T

* Touch of Idiocy - No Save

U

* Unholy Blight - Will

W

* Wall of Fire - No Save
* Waves of Exhaustion - No Save
* Waves of Fatigue - No Save
* Web - Reflex/Strength

So what spells get knocked out due to epic ward?

Charm Monster
Charm Monster, Mass
Charm Person
Circle of Death
Destruction
Dominate Monster
Dominate Person
Energy Drain
Enervation
Finger of Death
Implosion
Mind Fog
Phantasmal Killer
Slay Living
Suggestion
Suggestion, Mass
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Persuasion
Undeath to Death
Wail of the Banshee

Solmage

10-16-2009, 12:42 AM

Indeed.

Considering the unlimited mana and thousands of hp the monsters have anyway - raising spell damage beyond what 'the rules' give as the maximum and letting casters one shot 80% of players is really ....absurd.

CR35 casters have access to Epic Spells. One of the seeds for Epic Spells just so happens to increase the type of die used. Therefore, the cometfall could be using up to 15D20 instead of 15D6 according to the rules, just FYI.

PS: If you are one-shotted by a single 400 dmg cometfall then you may want to reconsider your build's choices, in my humble opinion. I think a better argument should be that such spells shouldn't be spammed.

Solmage

10-16-2009, 12:46 AM

Get some sleep cow your hallucinations are spreading into your screenshots =P

You must spread reputation more before giving it to this user. Best Line Ever.

MrCow

10-16-2009, 12:49 AM

You must spread reputation more before giving it to this user. Best Line Ever.

I agree, I got a good kick out of it, even more so being directed at me. :)

Junts

10-16-2009, 01:02 AM

Oh? Where in the post does he indicate that the immunities have been removed from Epic Ward?

Check the lam dev tracker, the psot that announced a scaling back of epic mob hp included a mention of making them susceptible to more attacks as well

Given that a high spell pen character is entirely capable of killing any non red/purple with 2 energy drains and an instakill, the spells on the immune list are pretty essential .. I love doing it myself, but i just took a lv 12 newbie friend of mine on a tour of the subterrane with my caster, including full clear of the VoD side and the nameds over there .. it doesnt matter how much hp or what immunities the mobs have, as long as negative levels work on them, they will never be hard.

Angelus_dead

10-16-2009, 03:12 AM

it doesnt matter how much hp or what immunities the mobs have, as long as negative levels work on them, they will never be hard.
1. It's possible to be immune to negative levels but not to many other things.
2. It's possible to be resistant to negative levels, instead of simply immune.

For example, I have repeatedly suggested the addition of a "lesser deathward" effect that provided a fort save to prevent taking a negative level. That is provided in D&D by the "Font of Life" feat, which would be a good choice for an epic-like monster who was aware that Energy Drain was one of his weak spots.

bobbryan2

10-16-2009, 03:15 AM

2. It's possible to be resistant to negative levels, instead of simply immune.

I was gonna say that. You can cap it at 4 neg levels... or only have a 10% chance of a particular neg level working.

Doesn't have to be an all or nothing.

sirgog

10-16-2009, 03:19 AM

I was gonna say that. You can cap it at 4 neg levels... or only have a 10% chance of a particular neg level working.

Doesn't have to be an all or nothing.

Personally I like capping it at 4 neg levels; alternately, give them a dispellable Death Ward - anyone that's willing to go to the effort of dispelling that should be allowed to spam Energy Drain and Enervation to their heart's content.

Solmage

10-16-2009, 04:10 AM

Mummy Bugged Floors
It took me a bit on Hafez and Hami, but I realized that if you do not kill them in their room of origin then the floor does not break in their room and you will not be permitted entry to the epic chest vault. Because the doors no longer slam shut on activating them this bug has been created

I still get the audio about the doors closing - except they don't close. I also totally killed the two mummies inside their room and in both cases the durn floor did not break. I did keep getting the message (on screen, and from (Dungeon Master): (Spot) The stone floor cracks and crumbles beneath your feet, as well as audio) when walking around the room, except the floor never crumbled.

The golems are both too tough and too easy, imho (Heh) - Their fort saves seem a bit excessive considering most debuffs won't affect them, but at the same time their acid spells are a bit laughable. They need to be able to penetrate basic resists (if only a little) to be of any concern.

(This could perhaps be a nice opportunity to change the extremely useless acid rain (which they seem fond of) into a firewall-like acid spell that leaves an acid residue on exit? Hey one can hope...)

Also it seems they only cast when they can't easily reach their target, which makes sense.

Fort-saves in general seem through the roof however. I had to drain a gnoll down to 0 con (do you have any idea how long that took with CK considering they'd only take a point of damage every 15 or so ticks?! - to give you an idea, the !#& gnoll reached almost 0 health getting damaged 15 pts at a time before it reached 0 con..) to land any fort save spell.

I can understand not wanting to make them easy to flesh to stone, but shouldn't you guys start developing a buff that grants +X to saves vs certain spells, for example flesh to stone, while still allowing disintegration, symbol of pain, and all the other fun, fort-based spells?

Which also brings me to disintegrate and undead. Undead are supposed to have a 0 con. If there's a creature type that's (supposed) to be vulnerable to disintegrate, that would be undead!!

In general though, I'm a bit disappointed that the only way for an arcane to contribute any meaningful DPS is through firewall, and that only if it's a critical firewall vs the gnolls. This can only be a lot worse when we face fire-brand gnolls in chains of flame.

I just hope the caster PrCs will be able to address the issue, because believe it or not, one does not usually roll a sorcerer and get him all the DPS raid gear and tomes, so that one can cast extended irresistible dances ;)

Lastly, the bug in which solid fog is completely ignored by all creatures still exists. I'm pretty sure it's related to the new mechanic in which creatures sprint towards you, because the moment you hit any creature with exhaustion (no more sprinting) solid fog works again.

On a completely unrelated note, I pulled one of them thingies to improve the marilith chain. Too bad I don't have a set of that armor :)

Shade

10-16-2009, 04:35 AM

Ok, now that I've done both a complete run (minus the epic chests again) with the changes it is time for a bit more feedback.

hmm, So u kill Raiyum this time but all 3 outa there rooms, so only 1 of 3 skulls darkened like b4?

Visty

10-16-2009, 04:49 AM

On a completely unrelated note, I pulled one of them thingies to improve the marilith chain. Too bad I don't have a set of that armor :)

go loot it then....thats one of the best melee armors out there, we wanna know what the epic version is :)

sephiroth1084

10-16-2009, 05:07 AM

Personally I like capping it at 4 neg levels; alternately, give them a dispellable Death Ward - anyone that's willing to go to the effort of dispelling that should be allowed to spam Energy Drain and Enervation to their heart's content.

I think the devs should use this opportunity to try changing all of the immunities that aren't innate to a creature to spells that grant the same, with challenging caster levels. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but will agree/reiterate my point.

If the CL is high enough that a caster using Greater Dispel has to roll fairly high, that'll be another drain on resources, time, etc... And it still won't actually kill the monster. They'd still need to land a spell that has a real impact, which means they may also need to hit with Enervation or Energy Drain, and then whatever spell is applicable.

Auran82

10-16-2009, 06:18 AM

Personally I like capping it at 4 neg levels; alternately, give them a dispellable Death Ward - anyone that's willing to go to the effort of dispelling that should be allowed to spam Energy Drain and Enervation to their heart's content.

I just had a mental image of a bunch of epic gnolls and hyenas farming tangleroot for a couple Visors of the Flesh render guards

Shade

10-16-2009, 08:30 AM

go loot it then....thats one of the best melee armors out there, we wanna know what the epic version is :)

Easier said then done..

My barbarian wears the armor, and found the exact scroll for it off a gnoll.. But getting the other 2 parts which bind to upgrade it is gona be quite a grind giving the drop rates.

Hendrik

10-16-2009, 08:42 AM

MrCow;

You do the Community a great justice with your fantastic reviews and dedication to DDO.

Keep up the great work!

/muchrespect!

Angelus_dead

10-16-2009, 09:24 AM

Which also brings me to disintegrate and undead. Undead are supposed to have a 0 con.
Per the D&D rules, undead actually have - constitution, which is equivalent to 10 for the purposes of Fortitude saves (and hitpoints, and whatever else).

Eladrin

10-16-2009, 10:19 AM

2. It's possible to be resistant to negative levels, instead of simply immune.
This is something we're currently experimenting with.

Currently, negative levels regenerate at a rate of one every two minutes. We're trying out removing the negative level ward from epic "trash" and replacing it with a fast level-regen effect, so you would still be able to cripple something's saves for the next few spells with an Energy Drain, but not permanently.

We're also considering permitting charms on Epic, but capping their durations.

Auran82

10-16-2009, 10:56 AM

Easier said then done..

My barbarian wears the armor, and found the exact scroll for it off a gnoll.. But getting the other 2 parts which bind to upgrade it is gona be quite a grind giving the drop rates.

Aren't the other 2 parts bind to account?

moorewr

10-16-2009, 11:06 AM

This is something we're currently experimenting with.

Currently, negative levels regenerate at a rate of one every two minutes. We're trying out removing the negative level ward from epic "trash" and replacing it with a fast level-regen effect, so you would still be able to cripple something's saves for the next few spells with an Energy Drain, but not permanently.

We're also considering permitting charms on Epic, but capping their durations.

Good changes. It would be nice to see this thinking applied to blanket immunities in existing non-Epic content. Specifically the frost giants and their Sorjek pact thing in the Reaver's Refuge content.. not to mention that this is a great place for players to use disjunction on monsters.

Regarding charm durations, can't you achieve much the same effect by tuning up their Will Saves?

Junts

10-16-2009, 11:09 AM

Good changes. It would be nice to see this thinking applied to blanket immunities in existing non-Epic content. Specifically the frost giants and their Sorjek pact thing in the Reaver's Refuge content.. not to mention that this is a great place for players to use disjunction on monsters.

Regarding charm durations, can't you achieve much the same effect by tuning up their Will Saves?

No, the charm spells people actually use have long durations with only one save (mass suggestion, symbol of persuasion). No one intelligent uses dominate/charm effects that bear the extra save every 6 seconds problem

moorewr

10-16-2009, 11:13 AM

No, the charm spells people actually use have long durations with only one save (mass suggestion, symbol of persuasion). No one intelligent uses dominate/charm effects that bear the extra save every 6 seconds problem

I agree with that; I was thinking more along the lines that charm could land, but only on a very poor roll by the trash mob, so that mass suggestion or symbol of persuasion would be a decent opener to grab maybe one mob out of a crowd for the normal charm duration.

Junts

10-16-2009, 11:15 AM

I agree with that; I was thinking more along the lines that charm could land, but only on a very poor roll by the trash mob, so that mass suggestion or symbol of persuasion would be a decent opener to grab maybe one mob out of a crowd for the normal charm duration.

if the landing rate is that poor people simply wont use it, see tieflings/devil battlefield.

Shade

10-16-2009, 11:15 AM

Aren't the other 2 parts bind to account?

I believe so.

But that won't get around the fact there gona be hard to find the correct one, giving the deserts large number of items and low drop rate.

Might allow for more intense farming if you have multiple capped characters to go beyond ransack tho.

Shade

10-16-2009, 11:22 AM

This is something we're currently experimenting with.

Currently, negative levels regenerate at a rate of one every two minutes. We're trying out removing the negative level ward from epic "trash" and replacing it with a fast level-regen effect, so you would still be able to cripple something's saves for the next few spells with an Energy Drain, but not permanently.

We're also considering permitting charms on Epic, but capping their durations.

Think the limited amount, or highly resistant to, neg lvls approach works better.

As this one just allows casters with enough mana pots to just neg level enemies to death given enough casts in quick succession. They'd have to cast fast, but unless you go really insane on the hitdice, 5-10 energy drains should kill most everything, no save.. much much faster then traditional dps could ever hope to.

Unless you mean VERY fast - full - regen. Like 20 seconds = full regen would probably work fine.. So they function as a temporary debuff for 2-3 followup spells, but won't allow enough to stack to kill the enemy outright unless you have like 5 casters spamming them at the same time.

moorewr

10-16-2009, 11:22 AM

if the landing rate is that poor people simply wont use it, see tieflings/devil battlefield.

See, we keep agreeing with each other. :cool:

I think thatwould be acceptable; you'd be able to use it if you wanted as there would be no blanket immunity, but it would not provide an easy button for the epic content. Actually, I'd say that it could be somewhat more likely to succeed than on Shavarath with your run of the mill epic trash, since the effects of that plane are supposed to particularly interfere with enchantments.

sirgog

10-16-2009, 12:48 PM

MrCow

10-16-2009, 01:28 PM

This is something we're currently experimenting with.

Currently, negative levels regenerate at a rate of one every two minutes. We're trying out removing the negative level ward from epic "trash" and replacing it with a fast level-regen effect, so you would still be able to cripple something's saves for the next few spells with an Energy Drain, but not permanently.

An interesting application of negative levels if this happens, Energy Drain will become an opening nuke type spell as it will drain 2d4 levels and reduce their maximum HP by 19% to 57% (or 0.9^2d4 maximum HP remaining). This means on average if it is the opening action on a monster then it is going to effectively take down 40% of somethings max HP (or effectively 2400 HP on most of the new trash monsters), which is pretty darned powerful compared to any nuke spell an arcane or divine carries.

MrCow

10-16-2009, 01:29 PM

hmm, So u kill Raiyum this time but all 3 outa there rooms, so only 1 of 3 skulls darkened like b4?

Killing Raiyum and having the floor drop out for one of the mummies caused 2 darkened skulls, which means the floors have to drop out for the epic chest to be obtained.

sephiroth1084

10-16-2009, 02:49 PM

Per the D&D rules, undead actually have - constitution, which is equivalent to 10 for the purposes of Fortitude saves (and hitpoints, and whatever else).

Pretty sure that that is not the case, but rather that undead use their Cha score in place of their Con for the few effects that would affect them, such as disintegrate.

Solmage

10-16-2009, 03:05 PM

No, the charm spells people actually use have long durations with only one save (mass suggestion, symbol of persuasion). No one intelligent uses dominate/charm effects that bear the extra save every 6 seconds problem

Before they borked dominate, back when it was giving a penalty to save instead of being changed to charm and charm being changed to gimp'd waste of a slot, dominates were rather useful.

But yes, we're back again to the only charm spells of any use being extended mass suggestions/symbols of.

MrCow

10-16-2009, 03:07 PM

Pretty sure that that is not the case, but rather that undead use their Cha score in place of their Con for the few effects that would affect them, such as disintegrate.

Undead have a CON score of "-", which is equivalent to a N/A (not applicable) and thus can't be modified or play any effect (such as on saves of stat checks). By the book, this is a Nonability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#strength).

Nonabilities

Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

Strength

Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength. A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. The creature automatically fails Strength checks. If the creature can attack, it applies its Dexterity modifier to its base attack bonus instead of a Strength modifier.

Dexterity

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Intelligence

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

Wisdom

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Here are some highlights from the SRD on undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

Solmage

10-16-2009, 03:11 PM

Per the D&D rules, undead actually have - constitution, which is equivalent to 10 for the purposes of Fortitude saves (and hitpoints, and whatever else).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm

Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

•No Constitution score.

•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). (like, for example, disintegrate)

•Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

Hey I'm just going by RAW.

Edit:

(Sample Skeletal troll warrior stats from the SRD) Str 23, Dex 16, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 1

Edit2: Gah someone else posted stuff too

Jonny_D

10-16-2009, 03:40 PM

Did epic wizking (Oct 15), all bosses (3 bonus endchests). Had full group of good players, with nice balance (Rogue, Cleric, Evasion Paladin, WF Wizard, and 2 Barbarians. It was a blast for me on my pally. We did it in about an hour, but the cleric had an unlimited supply of mana pots (he used like 100), so no recalls for mana (we didnt even use either of the shrines at the entrance). None of our gear deteriorated to the point of breaking. We could have reduced mana use several ways, but we were lazy.

Everyone should have pots of remove fear, curse, poison, disease, also if possible have people wear disease immunity items. Also we never stopped to self replenish health after fights, the cleric just used his mana, so with 3 people using heal scrolls, or mass cmw we could have topped everyone up more efficiently at the cost of time, as well as recalling out for mana. Basically self sufficiency will be back instyle again. On that note, taking 2 barbarians is very nice for the DPS, but when fully raged out they tend to need a ton of support. Every 10 seconds or so in combat one of the barbs was mummy cursed and unable to deal with it themselves.

The traps hit really hard, which is good, 2 hits killed a raged barb, so they were worth disabling if you wanted to save mana from heals. The DC's were pretty standard endgame. Rogue skills required to be invested in but no feats or major swapping out of gear was required (mid 50ish DC reported by the rogue) basically a rogue is not required, but it is helpful to have one in group.

We killed the majority of trash mobs, leaving a few of the archers alive while moving on.

The end fight with the wizard king was very fun. At one point 4 party members were dead at the same time including the cleric, so having multiple rezzers is a must. It was a challenge, but not impossible, though Im not sure how many mana pots were used in the final fight.

The only recommendation I have is that a rest shrine (but no rez shrine) should be placed in the chamber before the jackal, lion and wizard king rooms which appears after the guardians are defeated, simply to save time from having to recall out for mana and having to run back in. People will do this anyways unless they want to drink mana pots so it would just be a convenience rather than necessity.

MrCow

10-16-2009, 03:49 PM

we didnt even use either of the shrines at the entrance
...
We could have reduced mana use several ways, but we were lazy.
...
The only recommendation I have is that a rest shrine (but no rez shrine) should be placed in the chamber before the jackal, lion and wizard king rooms which appears after the guardians are defeated, simply to save time from having to recall out for mana and having to run back in. People will do this anyways unless they want to drink mana pots so it would just be a convenience rather than necessity.

I'm having a hard time seeing the recommendation for the rest shrine when you had shrines still to use, admit SP was being used more heavily and frivolously than a normal run might have used, and asking for Epic difficulty to have convenience. :)

Jonny_D

10-16-2009, 03:57 PM

I'm having a hard time seeing the recommendation for the rest shrine when you had shrines still to use, admit SP was being used more heavily and frivolously than a normal run might have used, and asking for Epic difficulty to have convenience. :)

lol yeah I hear you:). I know that after the fight with the chamber guardians our mana was depleted. If we did not use pots we most definatley would have d doored or recalled for mana for the boss fights, especially the ones that lock you into the rooms. Thats why I say it is a convenience to have a rest shrine rather than a necessity.

HeavenlyCloud

10-16-2009, 04:04 PM

The traps hit really hard, which is good, 2 hits killed a raged barb

4 hits not 2.

Jonny_D

10-16-2009, 04:06 PM

4 hits not 2.
lies;)
you agree with the rest of my assessment though right dam dog?

Shade

10-16-2009, 09:20 PM

4 hits not 2.

Yea the traps aren't balanced for epic, there the same as elite, not scaled. There zero threat to anyone. Same damage as elite, 100-200. My 800 hp barbarian can thus take 4-8 hits.

imo, all the ones that can be easily dodge (acid, spikes, blades) should deal 1000+ damage (500 on a save). The undodgable one ontop of the lever should deal 500+.

Shade

10-16-2009, 09:21 PM

Did epic wizking (Oct 15), all bosses (3 bonus endchests).

Well only 1 of the bonus endchest is the epic one correct..

So did you loot any shards?
Many seals?
Everyone got a quest token?

SableShadow

10-16-2009, 09:34 PM

imo, all the ones that can be easily dodge (acid, spikes, blades) should deal 1000+ damage (500 on a save). The undodgable one ontop of the lever should deal 500+.

And if you build them to threaten an 800 hp barb, they'll simply vaporize anything else, save or no. We lost people to the traps, as is, in chains, rayray, and dq1 today.

Shade

10-16-2009, 09:53 PM

And if you build them to threaten an 800 hp barb, they'll simply vaporize anything else, save or no. We lost people to the traps, as is, in chains, rayray, and dq1 today.

Then they were being lazy or just bad players that deserved the death. They would die exactly the same if the quest was on elite, a lvl11 quest.

And no those numbers I put aren't balanced just for my barbarian. All of my characters could survive that damage, including my Drow sorc and favored soul.

And yea it makes perfect sense for traps that VERY easily dodge/jumped over to kill you if you mess up and run thru them AND fail the save. It's epic mode, not hold my hand mode.

MrCow

10-16-2009, 09:55 PM

Be warned, you raise static traps to that high of a damage and you give the players a huge combat advantage as they can use the Chamber of Raiyum traps against enemies.

SableShadow

10-16-2009, 09:59 PM

just bad players that deserved the death

Rather unlikely. Keep in mind, we knocked out an OOB and a Ray the other day, a Chains and a DQ1 tonight. Same guys.

And yea it makes perfect sense for traps that VERY easily dodge/jumped over to kill you if you mess up and run thru them AND fail the save. It's epic mode, not hold my hand mode.

You want 'em to hit harder? Fine, let 'em hit harder. They've made a lot of the traps rather more...interesting already. I'd rather they continue in that theme (kudos to the dev who thought those up) than just crank up the damage.

Korvek

10-16-2009, 10:04 PM

All of my characters could survive that damage, including my Drow sorc

Your Drow sorcerer can break 500 hit points?

Now I'm intrigued.

Shade

10-16-2009, 10:50 PM

Be warned, you raise static traps to that high of a damage and you give the players a huge combat advantage as they can use the Chamber of Raiyum traps against enemies.

Generally whenever traps are significantly dangerous to the mobs in the quest.. The mobs are simply made immune to the traps. This is true for dozens of quests already on live.

Shade

10-16-2009, 10:51 PM

Rather unlikely. Keep in mind, we knocked out an OOB and a Ray the other day, a Chains and a DQ1 tonight. Same guys.

Being very good players can solo epic mode.. Dragging along a few bad players in a full group certainly won't be an issue. Just because you beat the quests doesn't mean you didn't have some players lacking any decent twitch skill to avoid the traps, obviously you did.

Shade

10-16-2009, 10:55 PM

Your Drow sorcerer can break 500 hit points?

Now I'm intrigued.

He wouldn't have to.

1000 damage.. Save = 500 damage. Protection = 380 damage, resist = 350 damage. He has 405 hitpoints, 12 base con.
Could go further with an acid absorption ToD ring too.

I the dozen times ive solo'd the quest on elite tho, i've never been hit by the easily avoidable traps. The the big lever one, which already does 300-400 damage on a failed save, I toss on a protection and pull away.

Infact most of the traps in wizard king are so delayed, I generally run right thru them. If you run fast enough, even tho you pass straight thru the spinning blades, you take no hits. You have to really mess up to get hit by them.

Chain of flame Traps are more difficult to avoid, but 100% of them can be dodged. The new air jet ones are fun, but when I ran thru them, never dealt any damage.. Tho they did shoot me off into the lava until i figured out how to bypass them correctly.

I imagine thats what there going for anyways.. New/Funny traps, to make existing ones more diffficult to bypass, rather then make them deal enough damage to be any threat to a lvl20 party.

Angelus_dead

10-16-2009, 11:32 PM

We're also considering permitting charms on Epic, but capping their durations.
You might want to also debuff an epic mob who switches sides, such as by turning off his epic ward.

That would make it easier for the other epic mobs to kill him, which would prevent the charms from being more helpful to players than you want. In particular, it would prevent an ultra-hp epic trash mob from tanking an epic boss for an extended period.

SableShadow

10-17-2009, 03:14 AM

Could go further with an acid absorption ToD ring too.

Where are you taking acid damage? Everyone just jumped up the middle.

Mechanicals got people who forgot where to stand, that's all. And a mechanical saving for 500 is kinda pointless unless you're evasion or high HP.

My point is, once you reach a potential 1-shot for a majority of the party, there's not a real reason to go further. The trap does what it's suppose to do: make you figure out how to deal with it. The elemental traps maybe could use a buff, but I don't know that I'd go 1000...the fire bridge and electrical climbs in oob are going to be ugly, as is the fire chamber in chains.

Infact most of the traps in wizard king are so delayed, I generally run right thru them. If you run fast enough, even tho you pass straight thru the spinning blades, you take no hits. You have to really mess up to get hit by them.

Fixing that aspect would make the quest more challenging than upping the damage, sounds like. Again, the twists the devs have put into the traps is the way I'd like to see them go. Disjunction, blowdowns, grease...all good stuff.

sephiroth1084

10-17-2009, 04:06 AM

Where are you taking acid damage? Everyone just jumped up the middle.

Mechanicals got people who forgot where to stand, that's all. And a mechanical saving for 500 is kinda pointless unless you're evasion or high HP.

My point is, once you reach a potential 1-shot for a majority of the party, there's not a real reason to go further. The trap does what it's suppose to do: make you figure out how to deal with it. The elemental traps maybe could use a buff, but I don't know that I'd go 1000...the fire bridge and electrical climbs in oob are going to be ugly, as is the fire chamber in chains.

Fixing that aspect would make the quest more challenging than upping the damage, sounds like. Again, the twists the devs have put into the traps is the way I'd like to see them go. Disjunction, blowdowns, grease...all good stuff.

I'm liking the sound of these traps!

Was just running Cursed Crypt and had forgotten about the greased ramp with the spinning blade traps and skeleton archers. As annoying as that trap is, I love it!

Meanest trap I came up with as a DM in PnP...

In a kobold dungeon, narrow (medium creatures must squeeze) corridor, leading to a 10x10x10 room, which leads into another squeeze corridor. The room has a Enlarge Person trap, which essentially traps a medium creature in the room while kobolds shoot his shins from the protection of the narrow corridor ahead.

Further up that corridor, there is a dual trap: Reduce Person and Gust of Wind, which in conjunction, shoot a player back through the Enlarge room, and reset that trap. Let's get some of that kind of evil, instead of these easy solutions of adding insane damage. >)

Shade

10-17-2009, 04:22 AM

The trap does what it's suppose to do: make you figure out how to deal with it.

Like i've said a few times now, no they don't.

I don't need to use my brain at all for the traps in wiz king. I could be a braindead moron and run thru them all repeatedly 6 times and im fine. There's no risk, thers no reward for bringing a rogue, theres no purpose to the traps.

Not very epic.

The devs designed the traps to be a challenge to lvl12 players. As that's what the lvl cap was when the quest was released, and the traps are not scaling up for lvl20s. What challenges a lvl12 is completely trivial to a lvl20.

Most others things in the quest scaled, some mobs didn't and that was fixed as it was a bug. The weak trap damage soudns like a bug to me too.

I'd perfer they just 1 shot everyone, no save. But I give instead some damage values that will challenge the strongest of characters as that would prove to be an unpopular idea.

SableShadow

10-17-2009, 04:28 AM

I'd perfer they just 1 shot everyone, no save.

Yet simply making them insta-gibbs, yet keeping the present design, wouldn't change anything for you, yes? Sounds like wizking needs a trap makeover like the ones Chains and Oob got? I'm specifically talking about the mechanicals here.

Shade

10-17-2009, 04:35 AM

Yet simply making them 1-shots as designed wouldn't change anything for you, yes? Sounds like wizking needs a trap makeover like the ones Chains and Oob got?

Um yea it would.

It would encourage me to take a rogue because I know that even tho I might jump all the traps fine, my teammates may not. So if nothing else, they would slow us down with rez and rebuffs.

As some of the wiz king traps do have offer some difficulty in navigating. The acid ones are easy as you said, jump in the middle ,grab the ledge. The spinning blade ones are tougher.. You can either wait them out and jump them, or zerg to the lever, while inside of the trap, hit it fast and jump at the last moment, tough to perform fast enough - as soon as they move you take a hit.

Now some air jets blowing you into the acid traps where you'd normally jump up could be cool.

Now the ideal traps would go beyond killing you ofcourse as we can rez so easily at this lvl.. I'd like to see some that in addition to killing you, teleport your stone off into a penalty box like some raids do... Forcing a tough fight which respawns to re-trieve the stone.

SableShadow

10-17-2009, 04:51 AM

Um yea it would.

Infact most of the traps in wizard king are so delayed, I generally run right thru them. If you run fast enough, even tho you pass straight thru the spinning blades, you take no hits. You have to really mess up to get hit by them.

As some of the wiz king traps do have offer some difficulty in navigating. The acid ones are easy as you said, jump in the middle ,grab the ledge. The spinning blade ones are tougher.. You can either wait them out and jump them, or zerg to the lever, while inside of the trap, hit it fast and jump at the last moment, tough to perform fast enough - as soon as they move you take a hit.

Make up your mind. :)

It would encourage me to take a rogue because I know that even tho I might jump all the traps fine, my teammates may not. So if nothing else, they would slow us down with rez and rebuffs.

Bingo! People in Chains were waiting for the disarm in the spinner room, the spike room, and the swinging floor blades. The cleric got careless watching our barb run after me in the spike room and got insta-gibbed when a spike cycled. Raising the damage wouldn't have made him any more (or less) dead.

All three of these are trivial to avoid, if you only take a moment to watch the trap cycle.

Now some air jets blowing you into the acid traps where you'd normally jump up could be cool.

Now the ideal traps would go beyond killing you ofcourse as we can rez so easily at this lvl.. I'd like to see some that in addition to killing you, teleport your stone off into a penalty box like some raids do... Forcing a tough fight which respawns to re-trieve the stone.

How about an air jet in the falling floor rooms? Toss dimensional anchors in all five quests, so ddoor and teleport don't function, so a fall means a fight? Mummy rot on all spinners? Feeblemind and Slow poisons on all spinners?

I just don't think adding raw damage is the answer.

Jonny_D

10-17-2009, 04:53 AM

He wouldn't have to.

1000 damage.. Save = 500 damage. Protection = 380 damage, resist = 350 damage. He has 405 hitpoints, 12 base con.
Could go further with an acid absorption ToD ring too.

I the dozen times ive solo'd the quest on elite tho, i've never been hit by the easily avoidable traps. The the big lever one, which already does 300-400 damage on a failed save, I toss on a protection and pull away.

Infact most of the traps in wizard king are so delayed, I generally run right thru them. If you run fast enough, even tho you pass straight thru the spinning blades, you take no hits. You have to really mess up to get hit by them.

Chain of flame Traps are more difficult to avoid, but 100% of them can be dodged. The new air jet ones are fun, but when I ran thru them, never dealt any damage.. Tho they did shoot me off into the lava until i figured out how to bypass them correctly.

I imagine thats what there going for anyways.. New/Funny traps, to make existing ones more diffficult to bypass, rather then make them deal enough damage to be any threat to a lvl20 party.

so far what I've noticed is you like to mix your examples... using mech traps damage but then using acid traps to talk about your sorc to falsely prove your point while at the same time using an uberer than thou tone in your presentation lol, it makes it tough to take your ideas serious as the smell of false bravado and a need to proclaim your worth masks the merit of your posts. Its actually easier to solo and time the traps. When you have 5 other people using the ramp with mobs agroing its much more difficult to time jumps because of collision mechanics caused by other members being in the way of monsters or having the party too seperated to kep healed.

Assuming that Shades is the best DDO player evah, it does not make sense to balance quests for his personal 70+ AC barb with 2 pocket healers and make traps have 1000 damage. Heck if they have 1000 damage why not make it 10 000 damage so there is no chance of anyone ever surviving... maybe make the acid do Abbot inferno-like acid damage too, but have it spray the entire stair way:rolleyes:.

I like Sable's idea's of tweaking the traps out a bit, maybe upping the damage a bit sure to guarantee 1 shotting squishier type toons 400 pts damage is adequate to do this. As it stands the traps do enough damage that you will die if you screw up unless you are a Barbarian or Shade of course on his sorc;)

Jonny_D

10-17-2009, 04:58 AM

Step outside the 'traps need more damage' for a second. How about an air jet in the falling floor rooms? Toss dimensional anchors in all five quests, so ddoor and teleport don't function, so a fall means a fight?

Damage isn't the answer. Trap construction is.
thats evil, I like it.
Although if you fall into the scorp room and get hit by a cursed wound dot, you will die, being quick enough to get your d door up is a challenge unless you are running quickened as a wiz, or a sorc...the dot from the cursed wounds drom the scrops is about 80 a tick, plus the damage from actually getting hit, and the interuption cause by it.

SableShadow

10-17-2009, 05:01 AM

thats evil, I like it.
Although if you fall into the scorp room and get hit by a cursed wound dot, you will die, being quick enough to get your d door up is a challenge unless you are running quickened as a wiz, or a sorc...the dot from the cursed wounds drom the scrops is about 80 a tick, plus the damage from actually getting hit, and the interuption cause by it.

True enough! Hey, most of my ideas could use a little more time in the oven. ;)

Anyways, I'm out for the night (day? o.O).

Crank the trap damage up or don't, I don't think it'll really matter that much either way inside of one or two runs and people adjust to their current design...just means barbs would have to dodge hits along with all us lesser mortals. ;)

Spisey

10-17-2009, 05:23 AM

True enough! Hey, most of my ideas could use a little more time in the oven. ;)

Anyways, I'm out for the night (day? o.O).

Crank the trap damage up or don't, I don't think it'll really matter that much either way inside of one or two runs and people adjust to their current design...just means barbs would have to dodge hits along with all us lesser mortals. ;)

HA! Spisey FINALLY finds something he can do better that a pure barb! That and scroll raise the poor cleric with a sucky reflex save.... :p

Shade

10-17-2009, 08:19 AM

As it stands the traps do enough damage that you will die if you screw up unless you are a Barbarian or Shade of course on his sorc;)

Meh you guys really don't get it. Every class gets allot more hitpoints for 8 levels. The traps will 1 shot a lvl12, thats what there balanced for.

Any decent HP cleric won't be 1 shot. The spike one deal 200 damage, 100 on a save.

My 12 starting con sorc, with no toughness feat.. Has 400+ hp. My barbs have double that, and again have no toughness feat. I don't spec my characters out for hitpoints. There actually rather low considering most of the builds I see these days.

The cleric in the example was not "insta-gibbed" theres no way lvl20 cleric has only 200 hp in ddo. He probably stood in the trap and took 2 hits at least.

My suggestions aren't tailored to make the mode survivably for only me. There the opposite. The traps are no challenge to me, so I'd rather they deal enough damage to kill my barbarians outright... To make them deadly enough to warrant taking a rogue along.

Adding things to make them more difficult to bypass is cool, but ultimate they have to offer some way to be bypassed without a rogue.. Thus the only other way to scale them is the traditional way - damage.

Hell the traps in lvl19 quests like Sins of Attrition on normal deal roughly equal damage to what you see in wiz king epic. Sins of attrition elite traps deal upwards of 500 damage... Getting thru the last room on the rights chest (where you use the lute, is a epic challenge on elite sins.. This is what epic should be balanced for, and im sure will be once the scaling bugs are addressed.. End of discussion on damage.

SableShadow

10-17-2009, 01:09 PM

Meh you guys really don't get it. Every class gets allot more hitpoints for 8 levels. The traps will 1 shot a lvl12, thats what there balanced for.

Then crank the damage of mechanical traps up to the 600 range, at least on the spinners. Now you can take one (1) hit on save, a barb can fail one (1) save, and that next one is surely going to put you down.

The objection I have isn't to more damage, but to 'death on save'. That just takes us to yet more 'you built for reflex saves? n000b!' ****. It's a poor design.

If anything, I'd rather they add a death effect 'save or die' to some of the traps rather than '1000 points, save for half *and* die'.

Edit: Other options than just cranking raw damage to the max:

1) Add base damage in the 600 range, but allow traps to crit on a failed save (5% chance? 10% chance?) for 1000+ points. Now most of the time, you can take a hit on a high HP character but every once in a while when you fail a save....
2) Add more effects, perhaps on a 10% proc with additional saves on the secondary effect. Dispell procs, Mass Hold procs, Soundburst procs, Cursed Healing procs...all things that make traps much riskier w/o vaporizing one class to challenge another...
3) Add restricting or disorienting effects. Locking folks in, air jets, reverse gravity, grease, earthquake...
4) Add more debuffing traps. The disjunct traps in DQ1 and Chains are pretty cool, add some AoE bursting Mummy Rot/Mummy Curse traps to Ray in place of the acid traps, trigger on the top ledge.