Aryenne the Justifier, a twist on Knight of the Chalice DPS

[Junts]

Updated 5/2011

Aryenne the Justifier is a KOTC3-based evasion-self healing build. Unwilling to trade the paladin capstone for only one of the two features, I found an acceptable method of exchanging it for both benefits. This obviously hurts the build's maximum available DPS a bit. However, with considerable strength, paladin buffs and double strike, as well as maxed smiting and divine sacrifices, it still outputs competitive damage, especially against non-evil outsiders (where it's only 1d6 behind a capstone'd paladin).

This build is one of the better self-healers out there because it's able to fit more devotion enhancements and more healing amplification into its equipment than is typical. Running at 189% incoming healing most of the time, and full paladin devotion, the CSW with maximize alone routinely break 250. With the airship 10% amp buff, I have broken 300.


Aryenne the Justifier
Human Paladin 18 / Monk 2, 36 pt

Str: 38 (18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 2 rage + 2 yugo)
Dex: 23 (14 base + 3 tome + 6 item)
Con: 22 (14 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int: 8, 10 if you wish it
Wis: 16 (8 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Cha: 26 (15 base + 3 tome + 1 enhancement + 1 exceptional + 6 item = 26)

(ship buffs not included)
Feat selection varies based on when you take monk levels. This is what I did. A faster path to good TWFing is to take both monk levels late. I wanted toughness early and monk SP at level 1.

1 monk, 9 monk.

1: two-weapon fighting
M: toughness
H: sf: umd or oversized two weapon fighting (otwf for me right now)
3: Khopesh
6: Maximize spell
9: Improved TWF
M: Power Attack
12: Greater TWF
15: Improved critical: slash
18: Quicken Spell

Skill points: 1 pt umd, 1 point concentration. If you use a tome, balance with those points.


Equipment:

Eyes: Shroud Concordant Opposition: wizardry 6, 35 hp, 6 wisdom
Head: Epic Spiked Turban (resist 5, greater falselife, +1 excep str)
Neck: Torc of Prince Raiyum de-II (no need to epic this, unless you want a colorless slot)
Cloak: Shroud Lightning 2: 10 hp, 150 sp, 5 umd, lightning strike guard
Belt: Lorinthor's Belt (con 6), Colethenis' Belt (con6)
Hands: Epic Gloves of the Claw (30% healing amp, 6 str, set)
feet: Epic Kundarak Delving Boots, Epic Golden Greaves
Wrist: Epic Bracers of the Claw (2 excep con, heavy fort, claw set bonus)
Ring1: Epic Ring of Venom (6 dex, sneak attack 4
Ring2: Lorinthor's Ring: 6 strength, 1 charisma, 2 strength, Ring of the Ravager (6 str, 1 str, 2 str)
Trinket: Epic Bloodstone
Armor: Epic Red dragonscale: toughness, 6 cha

The two tower sets swap depending what you fight, of course.
Weaponry:

+4 holy burst silver/cold iron khopeshes of greater lawful/chaotic outsiderbane for DR purposes.

Dual Lightning strike 2 Khopeshes: Most everything

I could make epic chaosblades, they'd only be for the same stuff the lightning strikes are, as I have no capstone, making it a pretty low priority. Its a lot of work for a tiny upgrade that isn't always an upgrade.

Enhancements:

You can take no or nearly no stat enhancements! That's how cool this build is! With a +3 str tome, I'll spend one in human str 1. Right now, I have that enhancement to get the benefit from my airship shrine, so I'll list it. Without the +3 cha tome, you'd need 1 enhancement in cha.

Paladin Cha 1 [2 AP]
Human Healing Amp 1-2 [6 AP]
Paladin Devotion 1-4 [10 AP]
Extra Smiting 1-4 [10 AP]
Exalted Smiting 1-4 [10 AP]
Energy of the Zealot 1-2 [3 AP: re-req for KOTC]
Follower of the Sovereign Host [2 AP]
Unyielding Sovereignty [4 AP]
Divine Sacrifice 1-2 [3 AP]
Courage of Good 1-2 [3 AP: pre-req for KOTC]
Knight of the Chalice 1-3 [8 AP]
Divine Might 1-3 [6 AP]
Extra Lay on Hands 1-3 [6 AP]
Paladin Toughness 1-2 [3 AP]
Racial Toughness 1-2 [3 AP]
1 AP left over: resistance of good 1 right now.

UMD breakdown:

8 cha
11 ranks
6 shroud
4 gh
--
27
+3 comptence (hat, vile blasphemy)
+3 enhancement (epic big top, spyglass)
+1 luck (prayer)
--
34 max umd

[SteeleTrueheart]

Where is your +6 Cha item in the item list?

[Junts]

Where is your +6 Cha item in the item list?

The toon is level 5, so the equipment was a little sketchy; I'd say it goes where str +1 is on the dt, since I left it out entirely :)

[valorik]

considered putting greater potency 7 on your armor? you'll lose 10% on your heals, but game a slot, which imo, is better than you're heals hitting for 140 over 130

[Junts]

considered putting greater potency 7 on your armor? you'll lose 10% on your heals, but game a slot, which imo, is better than you're heals hitting for 140 over 130

Thats not really a bad idea, i havfent given the high level eq that much thought .. I figured id need sov for something, buit its probably the best idea, actually

[maddmatt70]

I have a 14 paladin 2 monk character myself. I am not satisified with her and want to respec her to pure. The little that you get for the loss of dps of not being pure is a big hurdle. Fitting in the Khopesh is not too trying for a pure paladin even if the paladin is not human. The other build which is getting rave reviews is the 14 paladin 6 ranger build. Two of my guildies just capped this build and are really enjoying it.

Edit: if you want to use heal scrolls go with 18 paladin 2 rogue. There is less loss of dps by doing that and you can umd heal scrolls easily.

[Junts]

I have a 14 paladin 2 monk character myself. I am not satisified with her and want to respec her to pure. The little that you get for the loss of dps of not being pure is a big hurdle. Fitting in the Khopesh is not too trying for a pure paladin even if the paladin is not human. The other build which is getting rave reviews is the 14 paladin 6 ranger build. Two of my guildies just capped this build and are really enjoying it.

Edit: if you want to use heal scrolls go with 18 paladin 2 rogue. There is less loss of dps by doing that and you can umd heal scrolls easily.

The dps loss isn't as big as it looks at first blush; making a pure twf paladin that qualifies for divine might 4 is actually fairly difficult and requires some pretty significant sacrifices in other areas. The diference between a 430 dps output and a 460 dps output is not a really significant difference when compared to the added survivability. 2 rogue is certainly a nice choice as well, though 1d6+3 sneak itself isn't a huge benefit. If you're going for a sa based dps, you're better off halfling.

But using anything but drow to attain a twf with divine might 4 and acceptable strength is quite difficult; as good as the capstone is, the net result is playing something with fb damage output vs only one kind of mob and 5 lay on hands and similar reliance on other people to keep it alive .. the dps drop for not having the capstone is certainly present, but its not as big as you make it out to be.

[NXPlasmid]

I have a 14 paladin 2 monk character myself. I am not satisified with her and want to respec her to pure. The little that you get for the loss of dps of not being pure is a big hurdle. Fitting in the Khopesh is not too trying for a pure paladin even if the paladin is not human. The other build which is getting rave reviews is the 14 paladin 6 ranger build. Two of my guildies just capped this build and are really enjoying it.

Edit: if you want to use heal scrolls go with 18 paladin 2 rogue. There is less loss of dps by doing that and you can umd heal scrolls easily.

hmmm... I am thinking of going drow and use scimitars rather than Khopeshes, which are close or equal when the scimmy enhancements are considered. I think it's just a matter of action points, I guess it's either a feat squeeze or an action point squeeze...

[jakeelala]

hmmm... I am thinking of going drow and use scimitars rather than Khopeshes, which are close or equal when the scimmy enhancements are considered. I think it's just a matter of action points, I guess it's either a feat squeeze or an action point squeeze...

scimitars are within like, 2% of khopeshes with enhancements. as are rapiers for drow.

[sephiroth1084]

hmmm... I am thinking of going drow and use scimitars rather than Khopeshes, which are close or equal when the scimmy enhancements are considered. I think it's just a matter of action points, I guess it's either a feat squeeze or an action point squeeze...
AP is probably a lot tighter than feats for this kind of character.

It's got me thinking about seeing if I can squeeze Empower Healing and/or the Torq in on my intimitank. That could be interesting.Looks like I'll need to flag Ferrumrym again and start running him through there in addition to my wizard.

Junts, I like the build.

[Junts]

I need to update Jaerlach's build, my 18/2 pally intimitank now uses maximize and quicken + torc, and it works excellently; grazing hits proc it (hes got a con opp too) and the heals are more than enough to keep him going .. 20% paladin devotion, 32% healing amp.

Maximize is better than empower healing, you want bigger heals, mana efficiency is not an issue with the torc.

[Junts]

hmmm... I am thinking of going drow and use scimitars rather than Khopeshes, which are close or equal when the scimmy enhancements are considered. I think it's just a matter of action points, I guess it's either a feat squeeze or an action point squeeze...

Paladins have really bad time with action points; going human and using the bonus feat for Khopesh produces better dps and more free action points, which this character needs for paladin devotion.


If you are not trying for divine might 4 (eg, for 20 cha with a tome), drow is inferior to human for dps paladin purposes.

If you are going for a pure 20 capstone build, drow is the way to go because it gets you to dm4 without a +4 tome, doing it with human is almost impossible.


Character is 8 going on 9, but so far its just like every other paladin .. wearing fp and shield is a much better choice to this point. I'll take monk2 at 9 or 10 (probably at 10) when I swap over to twfing. At the moment I'd have been better off with all paladin levels, but I took monk at 1 for the better skill point distribution.

[sephiroth1084]

I need to update Jaerlach's build, my 18/2 pally intimitank now uses maximize and quicken + torc, and it works excellently; grazing hits proc it (hes got a con opp too) and the heals are more than enough to keep him going .. 20% paladin devotion, 32% healing amp.

Maximize is better than empower healing, you want bigger heals, mana efficiency is not an issue with the torc.

Wonder if I'll be able to squeeze this in on my intimitank and/or defender of syberis. Do you manage to have enough SP to keep Zeal and Divine Favor up through a quest, as well as throwing Divine Sacrifice constantly?

[Junts]

Wonder if I'll be able to squeeze this in on my intimitank and/or defender of syberis. Do you manage to have enough SP to keep Zeal and Divine Favor up through a quest, as well as throwing Divine Sacrifice constantly?

Easily; the character's soloed sins of attrition elite and bastion of power on hard, among other things, and is rarely even below half sp.

He also has vile blasphemy, which helps, but I don't even always need every charge. I'll update his build thread, it hasnt been touched in a while, I'm pretty happy with his functionality.


Its worth noting I don't carry any intim based feats anymore and don't even use an intim item except as an occaisional swap; I use threat tanking for everything, and my passive intim is high enough for trash mobs.

[maddmatt70]

But using anything but drow to attain a twf with divine might 4 and acceptable strength is quite difficult; as good as the capstone is, the net result is playing something with fb damage output vs only one kind of mob and 5 lay on hands and similar reliance on other people to keep it alive .. the dps drop for not having the capstone is certainly present, but its not as big as you make it out to be.

+3 and +4 tomes. I was a little disappointed that we did not see some unbound +3 tomes this mod. I just feel for a twf pally, if you are a fairly serious powergamer type to really shoot for the +3 and +4 tomes. I do not know what the 20th end reward for the tower raid will be, but I would start with a 15 cha and put a level up point into cha or start with a 16 cha and either way look for a +4 cha tome for divine might 4. Depending on race I would start with a 14 dex and try to get a +3 dex tome. If you need to start as a thf pally and respec for twf later so be it.

[Junts]

+3 and +4 tomes. I was a little disappointed that we did not see some unbound +3 tomes this mod. I just feel for a twf pally, if you are a fairly serious powergamer type to really shoot for the +3 and +4 tomes. I do not know what the 20th end reward for the tower raid will be, but I would start with a 15 cha and put a level up point into cha or start with a 16 cha and either way look for a +4 cha tome for divine might 4. Depending on race I would start with a 14 dex and try to get a +3 dex tome. If you need to start as a thf pally and respec for twf later so be it.


Khopesh beats rapier even with rapier enhancements, by a great deal, too. Working Khopesh into the drow build is probably the hardest part. Human 32 point loses 1 dex and 1 cha compared to the identical drow, and I didn't want to count on the +4 tome; staying at dm3 and picking up evasion and survivability is a worthwhile tradeoff as far as I'm concerned

This is still an endgame 34 str dual twf khopesh dps build in the end, and its dps will be comparable with frenzied berserkers once the knight of the chalice set works right. Going up another 32 dps (thats what the capstone is worth) is great, but its not that big a jump from 440 to 470 .. its cool, but evasion + self healing + superior human enahncements (since this build neither needs rapier enhancements or drow dex, the human stat enhancements are a major point in favor of the human build), as well as human healing amp, are all a great payoff in return for the 2 monk levels.

This isn't like your halfling build, since it's not making the smallest effort towards armor class .. it might be able to attain something in the mid-50s for running around trash mobs, but if so that will be purely coincidental. The tradeoff is similar to that made by the 18 barb/2 rog fb, which makes the character not totally dependent on being played with a dedicated healer for effectiveness.

I appreciate you abide by the Axer philosophy of max dps on all the tanks and max healing from everyone else, but I much prefer the options of flexible characters who can join a group regardless of makeup and run quests on hard and elite without someone having to switch to a cleric, bard or fvs.

[sephiroth1084]

+3 and +4 tomes. I was a little disappointed that we did not see some unbound +3 tomes this mod.

Put up a thread about this a while back, but had no screenies, so it never got much notice--guildy pulled an unbound +3 Cha tome as an end reward to Genesis Point (had a +1 loot potion up).

[Junts]

Whoops, I left out the stats

A pure dm4 build should go 16 15 12 8 8 17 drow, no other race can get 16 str, twf with a +2 tome, and make dm4 without it

[maddmatt70]

Put up a thread about this a while back, but had no screenies, so it never got much notice--guildy pulled an unbound +3 Cha tome as an end reward to Genesis Point (had a +1 loot potion up).

That would imply they drop in the tower raid on elite without a +1 loot potion.. hmmm...

[shinmade]

I have only one question. What are the pros and the cons of using an evil item on a good aligned character ?

Evidently for you, the benefits outweigh the detriments of the negative level bestowed upon your build by the litany of the dead trinket.

[shinmade]

Put up a thread about this a while back, but had no screenies, so it never got much notice--guildy pulled an unbound +3 Cha tome as an end reward to Genesis Point (had a +1 loot potion up).

would be nice to get a confirmed screenie of that

[maddmatt70]

Khopesh beats rapier even with rapier enhancements, by a great deal, too. Working Khopesh into the drow build is probably the hardest part. Human 32 point loses 1 dex and 1 cha compared to the identical drow, and I didn't want to count on the +4 tome; staying at dm3 and picking up evasion and survivability is a worthwhile tradeoff as far as I'm concerned

evasion is nice never said it was not I just hate that the extra feats do not add much and the ac is not very good so the monk wis to ac is wasted.



This is still an endgame 34 str dual twf khopesh dps build in the end, and its dps will be comparable with frenzied berserkers once the knight of the chalice set works right. Going up another 32 dps (thats what the capstone is worth) is great, but its not that big a jump from 440 to 470 .. its cool, but evasion + self healing + superior human enahncements (since this build neither needs rapier enhancements or drow dex, the human stat enhancements are a major point in favor of the human build), as well as human healing amp, are all a great payoff in return for the 2 monk levels.


I do not know how you get 440 at all. The capstone and divine might 4 are worth more then the 7% dps you put forth.



This isn't like your halfling build, since it's not making the smallest effort towards armor class .. it might be able to attain something in the mid-50s for running around trash mobs, but if so that will be purely coincidental. The tradeoff is similar to that made by the 18 barb/2 rog fb, which makes the character not totally dependent on being played with a dedicated healer for effectiveness.


Not at all true. That builds tradeoff is less in terms of dps and it is better at self healing because it can scroll heal well. It has more flexiblity if it does not have a very optimum group it can go into healing mode vs. if it does have a more optimum group it rages and melees. One of my guildies has an 18 barbarian 2 rogue character that he soloes everything with, but he can also do a heck of alot of dps with.



I appreciate you abide by the Axer philosophy of max dps on all the tanks and max healing from everyone else, but I much prefer the options of flexible characters who can join a group regardless of makeup and run quests on hard and elite without someone having to switch to a cleric, bard or fvs.

The what philosophy? Healing is pretty easy in any number of ways. I like dps especially if they start putting out new mods frequently. This is less stress for healers because you kill stuff quicker which makes quests easier for healers. I like umding heal scrolls for sure and have that feature in many of my builds. What about other alternatives to mitigate damage other then sacrificing dps such as shroud clickies?

[sephiroth1084]

would be nice to get a confirmed screenie of that
Yeah, went over that already.

Guildie got it, joygasmed and we broke group for the night. The next day I thought to ask him for a SS, but he had already mailed it to his sorc or bard and read it. Alas, we, as a community, will have to do without.

I think someone else in the thread I started mentioned that they, or one of their guildmates, also pulled one, but no SS there either.

So, on the whole, we're just working off of conjecture, but I know that every time I finish one of those quests, I make sure to have a +1 loot potion active, and am hoping for a +3 tome. :cool:

[shinmade]

I have only one question. What are the pros and the cons of using an evil item on a good aligned character ?

Evidently for you, the benefits outweigh the detriments of the negative level bestowed upon your build by the litany of the dead trinket.

Anyone have the answer for this ? Bueller ?

[SimVerg]

-5 hp, -1 skills, I think -1 to attack. Will log on and check in a bit.

edit: -1 to saves too.

[shinmade]

-5 hp, -1 skills, I think -1 to attack. Will log on and check in a bit.

I just dont see the point in using an item that gives u effectively a negative level. Say for example the +1 profane bonus evens out all stats, the +1 gained on different skills and to-hit would be negated by the negative level.

[SimVerg]

I just dont see the point in using an item that gives u effectively a negative level. Say for example the +1 profane bonus evens out all stats, the +1 gained on different skills and to-hit would be negated by the negative level.

Three cases call for it. When you care about dps(it can even a str bracket and gives +1 dmg too, so +2 dmg), when you care about ac(it can even dex and wisdom and grant +2 ac) and when you're a caster(can even a bracket and grant +1 to spell dc). That covers pretty much every build that is at all useful, so yeah.

[shinmade]

Three cases call for it. When you care about dps(it can even a str bracket and gives +1 dmg too, so +2 dmg), when you care about ac(it can even dex and wisdom and grant +2 ac) and when you're a caster(can even a bracket and grant +1 to spell dc). That covers pretty much every build that is at all useful, so yeah.

I am still intrigued by the fact that arguably one of the most evil items in the game actually might benefit a good build despite the full negative level. Reason I am wondering is because I have a 20 CG ranger whose only even stat is a 40 dex, everything else is uneven because when he was rolled up I had no idea that +3 tomes were going to be routine after 20th runs in raids.

[poonce]

I have only one question. What are the pros and the cons of using an evil item on a good aligned character ?

Evidently for you, the benefits outweigh the detriments of the negative level bestowed upon your build by the litany of the dead trinket.

I thought they got rid of the actual Negative level, and now you just get -Hp's but it still says Neg lvl at the top left?

[SimVerg]

I am still intrigued by the fact that arguably one of the most evil items in the game actually might benefit a good build despite the full negative level. Reason I am wondering is because I have a 20 CG ranger whose only even stat is a 40 dex, everything else is uneven because when he was rolled up I had no idea that +3 tomes were going to be routine after 20th runs in raids.

Your ranger will benefit from getting Litany. You will gain +2/1 dmg/swing. You will gain 15 hp. If you aren't finesse, you will gain 1 to hit. The only downside is, you will lose 1 reflex and 1 to dex skills(balance, tumble, etc).

[Junts]

I just dont see the point in using an item that gives u effectively a negative level. Say for example the +1 profane bonus evens out all stats, the +1 gained on different skills and to-hit would be negated by the negative level.


Taking -1 to saves, skills and hit in return for +1 to hit, +1 to damage and +1 to every stat (which can work ou to another +1 to hit and damage), for a net gain of 1 hit, 2 damage and probably a wash on saves(as long as I get a cha bracket, all I've lost is 5 hp and 1 to all skills).

That's worth it.

The dps numbers will now be lower across the board, Matt, due to the loss of the 5th offhand attack reducing all twf dps significantly, but once we've got new attacks/min benchmarks etc I'll run it all for you and let you know. However, a 34 str khopesh wielder with all the perks mentioned and 8d6 added damage every swing does some pretty fantastic dps. Keep in mind those numbers are with everything; a functioning kotc set, the shintao monk set, litany, mentau's goggles, etc etc, while getting sneak attacks .. its optimal dps, or in other words what you get when flanking Horoth (he has 0% fort).

The capstone is worth about 31 dps and divine might 4 over dm 3 is worth about 4-6 dps.

The feats are worth it imo, since I want the healing ability that comes with it; if you wanted rogue, you could easily do that instead .. both builds are more flexible and effective than the pure build, imo. I'll settle for a 35-36 umd + the self-healing + loh, but some might prefer to just have perfect scrolls and count that good enough. Personally, scrolls are too slow and annoying for me and I try to build all my characters to have a superior method of healing in addition to heal scrolls.

[Junts]

Just taking the chance to update, this char's now level 12 and with some pretty good (but not perfect) twinking it has been incredibly fun since I put away the fp and shield when I hit level 9. Playing a twf that gets hit a lot is taking some getting used to, but 3 lay hands and unyielding sovereignty help. She has all the damage output of a properly created twf paladin, so she's been heads above most characters shes run with as a dps. Just finally got flagged for the demon queen so she's about to start working on that important part of the build, but even without it it I am quite pleased.

[Junts]

I have updated the original post significantly to reflect actual endgame equipment and build; I am very, very happy with this character and the dps guards + self healing.

[78mackson]

...not that there is anything wrong with this build.. but from a powergamer point of view your sacrificing alot of DPS for evasion n pointless feats.

* A pure human paladin can fit in all the needed feats for quicken + empowerheal by the cunning use of mintu-crafting.

* To me Evasion is less needed/missed on anything that carries +500hp, great saves, UMD and can self heal with quicken + n1 heal amp... Dont take me wrong evasion is nice n all, but certain builds just dont need it as much as others...

* lightning strike guard < concordant, especially for this build. Getting a radience on DA is nice thou, good proc rate, blinded mobs doesnt synergies well for this build thou(?) . the other DA-guards really fails to impress, especially on a burst-dps build.

* bramble guards seems kinda meh!

[Favis]

...
Aryenne, Lawful good human
2 monk / 18 paladin
...
dexterity: 15 + 2 + 6 item = 23 (17 with bramble casters)
...

6 : Improved two weapon fighting (if you lack a no-ml tome, take any feat and swap it in at lv 7 after you eat a newstyle tome)
...


Whith no +2 tome availabe at lvl 6 (after update 1) how would you just the build?

[Junts]

Whith no +2 tome availabe at lvl 6 (after update 1) how would you just the build?

You just re-arrange the feat order; take a meta at 6 and move itwf back .. in fact, you have to do that anyway; you have a bab of 5 at that level if you take your first level as a monk (something I forgot about), so I took extend there, itwf at 9, ic at 12 and gtwf at 15, and the last meta at 18. It doesnt change the character very much re: feat order, the changable feat is still a lv 1 feat that can't be a metamagic (because you dont have a sp bar yet) and there's no way to move feats forward to open up more options (which is too bad). However, sf umd actually works out pretty well; with her charsima and full +6 from shroud and a +3 item, you're nofail at raise dead scrolls. You wont quite be nofail at heals without titan gloves/hogf, but you dont need to be with her bar healing ability, unless you're healing others,. in whichcase you probably are going to be swapping because you're trying to prevent some kind of disaster.

She just got the KOTC set ring out of tower tonight to go with her bramblecasters and 3 dps guards; the dps output is really sick, though the survivability's not quite there yet (no torc, no con opp, and not nearly enough sp yet). getting a total of 7d6 on top of your weapon damage is pretty insane.

[Junts]

...not that there is anything wrong with this build.. but from a powergamer point of view your sacrificing alot of DPS for evasion n pointless feats.

* A pure human paladin can fit in all the needed feats for quicken + empowerheal by the cunning use of mintu-crafting.

* To me Evasion is less needed/missed on anything that carries +500hp, great saves, UMD and can self heal with quicken + n1 heal amp... Dont take me wrong evasion is nice n all, but certain builds just dont need it as much as others...

* lightning strike guard < concordant, especially for this build. Getting a radience on DA is nice thou, good proc rate, blinded mobs doesnt synergies well for this build thou(?) . the other DA-guards really fails to impress, especially on a burst-dps build.

* bramble guards seems kinda meh!

Empower healing is a badly chosen feat if your intention is to use the torc and concordant opposition; sp per cast is no longer an issue, and you want larger heals, not smaller ones.

A pure human paladin could in fact do this if it used min2s and min2s only (though the dps gain from them is almost non-existent, and it closes off the option of using superior weapons in all the situations there are superior weapons, ie, lightning2 on everything that's not a raid boss, which are about 20% better dps), and also reduces your options for stat damage and smiting and banishing via enduring convictions; while possible, it'd be almost exclusively a raid build done that way.

There's no need for two concordant opposition items; one and the torc will generate enough spell points, and the reality is that this character does tremendous dps on reflected damage. Bramble-casters are tremendous for turning archers into effective mana-batteries (getting tagged for 1-5 damage per arrow is ideal for torc use, since torc does not activate if you take 0 damage from an attack), and the 1d8 guard affects every monster and does considerable damage if you are the main target of aggro. This character pulls a lot of aggro, and she gets hit pretty much every single time; if you simply assume that nythiros attacks once every 2 seconds, for example, during a 3 minute beatdown thorn guard would do an additional 90d8 damage to him. Its only a few extra dps, but when it comes for free on top of an item that's already very helpful for the one of the build's main purposes, it frankly becomes a pretty sweet edge (to say nothing of what epic brambles might be like)

as for the dps guards, I have never been a fan; I did not build the character planning on them, though I had intended to do my first ls guard because I was tired of -every- character having a min2 and an existential/con opp item: my paladin, bard, and monk all use both for their shroud items, and I was really bored with making the exact same thing. I got the corrosive salt and disintegration together on my first DT and put it on because I was wearing a deathblock robe, and I will say I have been pretty **** happy with the proc rate; both go off quite often, and any time I'm killing a group of mobs by myself or as the only melee, its pretty common for 1-2 of those mobs to drop dead while I'm working my way through the pack. This is anecdotal, clearly, but the best example I can think of came today doing some monestary loot runs, when any time I'd engage a group of scorpions or monks solo, roughly half of them would end up dying to guard procs by the time I dpsed the first half. On normal and short-man hard quests, a 500 point lightning bolt is most of a mob's hp, and a 600 point lightning strike is a kill much of the time, even in Shavarath. Corrosive salt takes a little longer, but it ticks 6 times for 62-84 damage, with an average in the 70s, which means its total damage output is around 430-450 depending on random luck. Last time I had that guard I was very much not a fan, but they have doubled its number of hits per occurance, and it now adds up to considerable damage.

Each of these effects only has a 2-3% proc rate (disint seems the highest, but its hard to test them without just letting mobs hit you because it can be so hard to follow all the feedback numbers), but when you add them all together they go off a great deal. When I'm taking main aggro on a mob like Nythiros or the Jailor/Judge, or the one being faced by Nythiros or tanking Suulomades in VOD, I get considerable free damage out of these effects. This character is now usually the person to have aggro, especially since she got her tower ring tonight, but even when she was still workign her way up and her dps wasn't full (before kotc3, etc), whether or not I had aggro would often be determined by where I stood relative to the next highest dps; If I stood 180 degrees opposite the fb barb, they would hold the aggro. If I stood next to them so attacks on them hit me, I would eventually steal and keep the aggro due to the additional dps of the guard damage. I'll add that there's a great synergy between bramble-casters hitting 1d8 every hit and the relatively rare procs of shroud guards; many mobs have 650-750 hit points, and so a single proc won't kill them; but if they've hit her 10 times while getting the rare proc, they've taken enough damage from thorn guard to be dead .. or it will kill them in just a couple more hits. I think my guards would be a lot less useful if i had to tab through the mob pack I was tanking to find the one that's now at 5% due to the guard proc; the bramble-casters mean I can continue with what I'm doing knowing they'll finish that mob off without me paying it any attention.

Now I pretty much always have the aggro, so it's working even more fully in my favor. I know people are pretty big fans of barbs that do this with shroud guards, and it seems to me that people might initially underestimate the benefit of being a character with that much damage reflection that can also heal itself. When she has her con opp and her torc, Aryenne will not only be a character who heals herself when she has aggro, or who does reflected damage when she has it, she'll often function as a nearly infinite source of dps and healing mana at the same time. I have another healing specced paladin, and he has a lot more armor class, but also cannot afford to max his devotion enhancements or get past 32% healing amp due to the tightness of aps and gear slots; Aryenne will probably be able to run 44% amp and 40% deovtion enhanecments, so her self-heals shoudl be quite large. Frankly, I'll take that over a wf guard barb that someone else has to spam heal all the time; only in elite quests or other situations with very large incoming damage per hit should Aryenne need more than the occaisinoal healing help, and will be able to grab, tank, and dps a large group of mobs at the same time. When she's running shorter man or needs more survivability, the rad guard (adding miss chance)/healing amp (boosting her healing strength) robe set will be very useful, but I'll always prefer the corrosive/disintegrate set for raid bosses, because those mobs easily hit me over 100 times during the course of a fight, and if you assume that amounts to 3 procs of each guard, it would be 100d8 (about 450) + 550-650 * 3 from lightning + 18 * 75 from salt and 450-500 * 3 from disintegration. All told that's several thousand extra damage, and while that isn't a huge amount, assuming that many hits takes around 3 minutes (meaning roughly 1 attack per 1.8 seconds, which would be slower than it really is), that'd all add up to around 5000 extra damage, or roughly an additional 28 dps. 3 procs of each is probably being a little generous to the proc rate, but equally 100 attacks in 3 minutes is being un-generous to the raid boss mobs, who're a bit faster than that. Its worth giving up a second concordant opposition effect I won't need, having a second dragontouched robe who I've already got both the effects of, and using a great piece of raid loot I already have that makes healign myself way way easier, to add 30 free dps. Even dropping one proc of light, disint and salt would still make it 21 dps added, and honestly the boss attack rate brings that back up pretty quickly. 21 dps is roughly the dps gain a paladin build like this gets from spamming divine sacrifice every time it's cooldown ends; that's not an in-significant addition!

As an aside re: evasion, capstone and feats, I nearly made a 20 pure paladin, but for me the decision was between a 20 drow paladin and an 18/2 human. Until we're dealing with 36 point builds, humans make too many sacrifices to access divine might 4, whereas it's possible for drow. If you're not getting dm4, you're balancing only the capstone dps vs the benefit of evasion. This character takes a -lot- of damage, and I do not want to play constantly with dedicated healers. I feel very much that characters should have one of 3 methods of reducing incoming mob damage to allow incoming damage rate to be managable: armor class, the ability to displace themselves, or the ability to evade. I am not a member of the temple of evasion splash, but I feel very much that a 12 con base character with an ac below 30 that wants to have a tremendous amount of aggro benefits substantially from having to only worry about the melee damage (which for her is good damage: it generates the torc and sustainabile healing) and is free from spell damage, which is bad damage for her, as her sp pool is extremely limited when it's also sustaining rebuffing and she doesn't have extend spell. Going human evasion bought 3 feats and evasion at the cost of the capstone, and I feel very much that when taken as a package, the overall benefit for play comfort is with the /2 monk. This character is already irritating enough to run in small groups and 6 man instances where she can't yet heal herself reliably enough and has to play and be treated like a barbarian build. I do not really want to think about playing one that's even more raid-centric.

Epic dq etc also certainly made me glad to have evasion. A pure 20 dps paladin, even with some self-healing ability (and especially with empower heal as you suggest) is simply a drastically different character from this one, who all but wishes rogues got feats so she could have intimidate and get herself more aggro .. once there's a shiny torc in her possession, Aryenne will pretty much want the aggro of every melee mob she can get her hands on as long as it's not an elite sins or bastion or the like; as long as the incoming damage is around 35 per hit or lower, she should be able to keep herself going with pretty limited outside assistance. She looks at Orthons as slow, beautiful gifts from Heaven, since they have that lovely tendancy to stay jsut a bit outside of melee range and spam the crossbow volley, which every single use of is generally worth 20-40 spell points.. and with the bramble-casters, each time an orthon does one, it does a grand total of under 10 damage. Getting 2-3 orthons on you is enough to make you want to not even bother dpsing them, but rather to simply leave them alone and let them shoot as you move and kill other mobs, since most of the time only one at a time will be in melee range attacking, and the others will be refilling your sp bar. I'd be just as glad to let the guards kill those mobs as ever attack them myself; they are my friends!

Radiance guard, as handy as it will be for slowing down the incoming damage rate (which is very important, as it re: evasion, because while it's cool to be able to sustainably self-heal, you also want to be able to do something between healing spells .. though all the dps guards do provide the option of 'just stay the hell alive and the mobs will start to die;) does work a bit cross-purposes with the torc by decreasing the opportunity for sp regen. On the other hand, radiance works only in melee, so it won't affect those lovely, wovely, Orthon volleys of love which serve to let the paladin play with more sp than most clerics do. Back to empower healing, when you're gonna use 3000-5000 sp per shrine, you really don't give a **** if you're doing so in a cost-effective way... you want to be able to throw maximized quickened heals for 170 points and beat on ****, not have to throw two for 90 points each and better sp effectiveness. The size of the heal is very important if you want to be able to do stuff before you have to heal again, especially since you have no armor class .. the 5 mobs on you all attacking my do 150 damage; being able to throw one quickened heal, then hit 4-5 times before they all do their next attack is a good thing, since if you're in exasctly that same situation with empower healing, you can't stay ahead of the damage.



edit: re: sacrificing lots of dps.

1: the paladin capstone is worth roughly 17.4 dps per hand, for a total of around 35.
2: The shroud guards are worth a certain number of dps that is difficult to determine accurately but ranges between 20 and 30. It may be as high as 35, but it is probably not reliably so.
3: the character in question has a dps output of around 430-475 depending on the vagaries of smite luck. While it's true that a pure 20 paladin build with all the guards at dm4 (worth 4.5 dps per hand) would do more dps than this character would, it would do so at the significant cost of being incredibly dependent on others for healing and much more limited in against what kind of mobs it was able to use it's full range of abilities. This may be what some people are looking for. I never advertised this build as the maximum available DPS paladin. What it is is an extremely good dps paladin that ends up with better self-healing than scrolls (its faster, its uninterruptible and it doesnt require gear switching and heals for more) with the ability to also use said scrolls if it wants, and evasion. It is way, way more survivable than a level 20 build at a relatively minimal net loss of dps; it is much more able to use it's full dps against mob packs than a pure 20 build could, and it's also able to retain improved critical and make lightning2 weapons (moving it up near or even past 500 dps vs applicable mobs). This is a question of a very large gain in effectiveness in more common but somewhat less improtant fights vs a small increase in effectiveness in less common and more important fights. I understand anyone who chooses to focus even further on raiding, but most who know me would tell you that I'm already too focused on endgame raiding and character performance there, and I think nearly all of them would tell you they'd rather run with a completed version of this one (and mine's not yet complete) than a paladin masquerading as a non-evasion barbarian.

[dnton]

Hi Junts. New to the forums and DDO and quite interested in playing a pally. I like your build but i'd like to know how having min. lvl +2 tomes would affect this build and what enhancements would you would select. I'm gonna be rolling a 32 point Kopesh weilder, human, pally-splash-monk. Hope for you input Junts. Really respect your work and experience concerning paladins. Also a paladin who splashed one monk lvl at the lvl 1 doesnt have enuff bab to take imp. TWP at lvl 6. Just wanted to know how you will address this and how your build would then be modified. Thank you

[Junts]

Well, I'd say just that: the one monk level moves back your feat requirements a bit so you have more room to get tomes, but doing this with just +1 mostly involves swapping 1 point of str for one point of dexterity (15/16 instead of 16/15). That one point isn't that crippling a loss overall, and if you decide you want it back, you can always lesser reincarnate someday and adjust the statistics. Since you'll probably eventually also pick up an intelligence tome, you might just want to do that, though this build is incredibly non-skill intensive (1 conc, 1 umd every level as a paladin, mokn levels get some balance and jump) that I didn't even bother using a +2 int tome and I owned several. An extra lot of balance never hurt anyone, though, that's for sure.

Doing this with a 28 pt build would be incredibly hard on a human, I'd probably use a drow template instead of a 28 pt human build if you don't have 32 pointers, and do rapier instead of Khopesh. Personally, though, I think human has huge advantages for this kind of build, since the human healing amplification enhancements are so helpful once you do eventually get your self-healing in order (I don't have that part done yet, it takes a while).

The DPS side of this character grows up really quickly since it's very non-reliant on high end loot .. just being 20 and casting holy sword gets you most of it, and there's only 3 or so items you really have to seek out in order to increase your dps (Lorinthor's Ring, Madstone Boots for the clicky, and Tharne's goggles ... bloodstone, too, in your case).

The healing and other parts will take longer to mature, since they are more dependent on raid loot. This character's less than 2 months old and is already down to hunting 3 items: Warchanter's Band(or Kyrian's Band), The Torc, and 12 more shrouds to be able to make the 2nd shroud item with a cleansing essence. That's much, much faster than any of my other characters have ever grown up.

[hydra_ex]

How's your UMD on her? There's no rogue lvls, so I'm wondering how effective it is.

(I trust that it works, but I'd just like to know how)

[dnton]

Erm but if you have 8 int, you should have -1 class points a lvl right? so you only get one 1 class point. Since UMD is cross-class skill dont you need 2 points to up it by one right. So you need one more skill point right? So basically u need 12 int to pump 1 conc, 1 UMD a lvl right, as in you need 2 (natural paladin skill points per lvl + 1 bonus int score)? Sorry correct me if i'm wrong cos i;m new to DDO. But i'm just clarifying

[SimVerg]

Erm but if you have 8 int, you should have -1 class points a lvl right? so you only get one 1 class point. Since UMD is cross-class skill dont you need 2 points to up it by one right. So you need one more skill point right? So basically u need 12 int to pump 1 conc, 1 UMD a lvl right, as in you need 2 (natural paladin skill points per lvl + 1 bonus int score)? Sorry correct me if i'm wrong cos i;m new to DDO. But i'm just clarifying

Humans get +1 skill point.

[dnton]

Sorry if i can't see this but 8 int give you a penalty of -1 skill points right? so a Paladin has a natural 2 + a human's +1 bonus. So you get 3 skill points. But if you lose one skill point due to int penalty, you end up with a total of 2 skill points (correct me if i'm wrong). UMD is a cross class skill. So you end up being able to either pump 1 point of UMD a lvl or two points of concentration. So do you mean that i'll end up with one conc, half UMD a lvl. (as 1 conc, .5 umd added every lvl) instead of one conc and one UMD

[Junts]

Sorry if i can't see this but 8 int give you a penalty of -1 skill points right? so a Paladin has a natural 2 + a human's +1 bonus. So you get 3 skill points. But if you lose one skill point due to int penalty, you end up with a total of 2 skill points (correct me if i'm wrong). UMD is a cross class skill. So you end up being able to either pump 1 point of UMD a lvl or two points of concentration. So do you mean that i'll end up with one conc, half UMD a lvl. (as 1 conc, .5 umd added every lvl) instead of one conc and one UMD

UMD is a cross-class skill and neither class gives full ranks, so you can only take .5 rank in umd every level, hence 1 umd, 1 concentration. Full ranks in umd aren't available without at least one rogue or bard level.

[KolbyLMD]

strength: 16 + 2 tome + 5 levels + 1 human + 6 item +3 exceptional = 32 (34 with +3 tome)

How does +3 tome give you 2 extra STR? Am I missing something?

[Junts]

Because with the +1 human the total actually adds up to 33 strength. :)

[KolbyLMD]

Ahhh. :P Gotchya.

[maddmatt70]

You change your mind yet on the capstone and pure level 20 paladin? Between the Epic Chaosblade in the hands of a pure level 20 pally and true reincarnate with 34-36 pt builds get to it.

[Junts]

You change your mind yet on the capstone and pure level 20 paladin? Between the Epic Chaosblade in the hands of a pure level 20 pally and true reincarnate with 34-36 pt builds get to it.

Nah I'm still very happy with evasion and self-healing. A pure 20 paladin like that is like a barbarian with some lay on hands.. just not at all the playstyle I'm interested in. It'd be great dps, but there's more to making a character entertaining than great dps. This character takes quite a bit of damage, but it does avoid some and it can reliably heal itself (backing out to throw scrolls, even at 39, with no ac and no concentration is not reliably healing yourself in the midle of a fight). I don't enjoy characters who are dependent on bringing a dedicated healer into the instance in order to be effective. /2 paladins and even /2 barbarians are quite capable of running 2-3 man quests with whatever other players are available. Pure versions pretty much require one of those people to be a bard, cleric or fvs, or that you go find one. I'm not a fan of that kind of need. Even this character and my monk (who have way more self-sufficiency than the pure build) aren't fun for me to play in most quests because they're so reliant on other players to be effective. I've sure got no plans to get any more reliant on other people. My idea of good quest teamwork is 2-4 characters who can take care of themselves and run through to the goal together, not someone who has to sit and be spammed heals at while they dispatch the mobs. I hate playing that kind of healer, and I won't ask another player to do it for me, either.

I did do some calculating though, and even with TRs, drow remain superior for building lv 20 paladins ... the extra +4 bp on a drow go even further than they do on a human. A 32 pt drow paladin is equivalent to like a 40 pt human build in terms of stat allocation .. it gets really crazy out of whack.

[wiglin]

Junts,

I recently re-activated my account, and like always I wipe everything before I leave. On coming back I have been browsing the forums, to see what new build ideas people have been rolling with. I like this build, it looks like a lot of fun to play. Would you mine, listing your level 20 enhancements layout.

thanks

[Junts]

Junts,

I recently re-activated my account, and like always I wipe everything before I leave. On coming back I have been browsing the forums, to see what new build ideas people have been rolling with. I like this build, it looks like a lot of fun to play. Would you mine, listing your level 20 enhancements layout.

thanks

Right now I've got:

Racial Toughness II
Paladin toughness III
Human Healing Amp I-II
Courage of Good I-II (pre-req)
Energy of the Templar I-II (pre-req)
Sovereign Host / Unyielding Sovereignty
Extra LOH I-III
Human Adapt: Str
Paladin Cha I-II
Divine Might I-III
Divine Sacrifice I-II
Extra Smiting I-IV 10
Exalted Smite I-IV 10
Knight of the Chalice I-III
Bulwark of Good I (place-holder)
Resistance of Good I (place-holder)

When I get my torc and concordant opp, I'm going to drop a bunch of enhancements to get the devotion stuff. Without maximize or mana regen, I see no reason to carry them right now.

Resistance of Good 1
Bulwark of Good 1
Paladin Toughness III 3
Paladin Charisma I-II 6

11 action points = Paladin Devotion I-IV with one to spare. Full devotion + 20% amp will provide considerable incoming healing .. my other healing paladin has 32% amp, but only 20% in enhancements and is 120-140ish with maximized csw. Hers should be slightly higher with full devotion.

Going back one cha bracket isn't a particularly large loss. I've also got the option of dropping human adapt: str when I get my other tower ring, so that would give me 3 action points instead of 1: at that point I'd probably take a toughness back if I don't need it to even out a +3 tome somewhere. If its just 1 AP left over, it'd go back to resistance of good 1, as I don't always wear a static resistance item (I swap between golden greaves and boots of the innocent depending whether I want the dr or the saves more).

edit: yes, I really am planning a paladin build with no charisma enhancements. 16 base + 3 tome + 1 tod ring + 6 item is 26, which is more than enough. Without the +3 tome, you take pal cha 1 with the AP being spent on human adaptability ( I dont have my 6 cha, 1 str ring yet).

[sephiroth1084]

( I dont have my 6 cha, 1 str ring yet).
Which are you going for, warchanter?

[Junts]

Which are you going for, warchanter?


Or Kyrian's, either does the same thing so it couldn't matter less to me which one I get.

[wiglin]

Doesn't an 18 Paladin get 2 level 4 spells? Are you getting your 140-170 heals from cmw, or are you swapping out holy sword at the first shrine?

[rimble]

edit: yes, I really am planning a paladin build with no charisma enhancements.

Yeah, sadly, they're by far the easiest ones to chop off the AP-starved Paladins. Maybe Rank I to round off your Cha, but that's probably it.

I like fitting in more Bulwark (or at least am planning on it, almost level 15 so far), it makes for a good 'tank team'. Stalwart Defender is up front, holding that aggro. You're by his side granting several points of AC, and tearing things to smithereens.

[Junts]

Doesn't an 18 Paladin get 2 level 4 spells? Are you getting your 140-170 heals from cmw, or are you swapping out holy sword at the first shrine?


You need to have holy sword loaded for about 2 min per login; hop into an instance, make em, drop it at a tavern.


As far as bulwark goes, it's nice, but I don't really feel people should expect a dps pally to provide it, and I'd have an easier time justifying it if my own ac wasn't under 30; if it was at least helping when I ran adq on normal or something, I'd have an easier time justifying dropping other stuff for it, but when its purely for lending a couple ac to the person tanking tod, I can't see burning APs on it. Generally, if they should be tanking it, they should have enough ac without +2 extra from me.

[KolbyLMD]

To Junts,

What would be the ideal stat allocation for a TR'd Drow or a TR'd Human? With +2 tome's for every stat aside from charisma, which I have a +3 banked. Trying to decide which race to go... my drow right now seems to have "meh" damage (20-35 a hit not including my additional damages.), as it's a 14PAL/6RNG split aka the poor man's pally. I do 550-575 Smite Crits though.

I'm looking to go Pure 20. Thanks in advance if you get around to seeing this Q_Q!

[Junts]

To Junts,

What would be the ideal stat allocation for a TR'd Drow or a TR'd Human? With +2 tome's for every stat aside from charisma, which I have a +3 banked. Trying to decide which race to go... my drow right now seems to have "meh" damage (20-35 a hit not including my additional damages.), as it's a 14PAL/6RNG split aka the poor man's pally. I do 550-575 Smite Crits though.

I'm looking to go Pure 20. Thanks in advance if you get around to seeing this Q_Q!

Drow is generally better for pure 20 as qualifying for DM4 is so much cheaper (start at 17 cha), human's better if you only have to qualify for dm3.

[houchin]

I was wondering if I could get help with a build mirroring this one for a very new player. I started a dwarf paladin and got him to level 3, but realized I had really gimped him and decided to start over. After searching the forum a few hours I really like this build. I know next to nothing about DDO, so any help would be appreciated.

In some of your posts Junts, you mention if you did it over you would have done the leveling a bit different taking the first monk level around 8 or 9 instead of 1, is that still true? You also mentioned changes to tome availability, what does that change in your build? I'm ready to go to level 2, and I haven't spent any action points or leveled yet, because I'm not sure what I want to do this early, and don't want to screw it up. Would you be able to post a complete build of what you would do differently, including action points/enhancements?

I don't have much in the way of money to twink my character, but I do have some guildies that could help some. Any suggestions on what to do levels 1-10 without twinking?

Here is how my character stands
32 point build
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

Level 1 Paladin Feat - TWF
Level 1 Human Feat - Skill Focus UMD

during character build I brought my Concentration to Rank 4, Diplomacy to rank 1 and UMD to rank 1.5

I'm ready to level and have 4 action points to spend. I really appreciate any help the forum could give me on suggestions for the next several levels, or a complete build on Aryenne with the current state of the game and the experience of raising her to level 20.

Thanks

[Junts]

I was wondering if I could get help with a build mirroring this one for a very new player. I started a dwarf paladin and got him to level 3, but realized I had really gimped him and decided to start over. After searching the forum a few hours I really like this build. I know next to nothing about DDO, so any help would be appreciated.

In some of your posts Junts, you mention if you did it over you would have done the leveling a bit different taking the first monk level around 8 or 9 instead of 1, is that still true? You also mentioned changes to tome availability, what does that change in your build? I'm ready to go to level 2, and I haven't spent any action points or leveled yet, because I'm not sure what I want to do this early, and don't want to screw it up. Would you be able to post a complete build of what you would do differently, including action points/enhancements?

I don't have much in the way of money to twink my character, but I do have some guildies that could help some. Any suggestions on what to do levels 1-10 without twinking?

Here is how my character stands
32 point build
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

Level 1 Paladin Feat - TWF
Level 1 Human Feat - Skill Focus UMD

during character build I brought my Concentration to Rank 4, Diplomacy to rank 1 and UMD to rank 1.5

I'm ready to level and have 4 action points to spend. I really appreciate any help the forum could give me on suggestions for the next several levels, or a complete build on Aryenne with the current state of the game and the experience of raising her to level 20.

Thanks

This build isn't very old; the upside to taking evasion later is that monk 1 does pretty much nothing for you 'til you get monk 2. On the other hand, you would have to use a feat swap to take itwf at level 6 anyway. Its pretty much a wash (you have to eat the +2 tome at 7)

with your stats, you're committed to that +2 tome at 7. Other than that, though, I don't see anything different. As long as you can swing the expense for the +2 dex tome (which are really goign down in price these days, at least on my server), you shouldn't really have any issues.

I'd make sure you take extend instead of one of quicken/maximize until you start raiding and get mana regen gear, but I noted that in the OP.

Remember enhancements don't matter; you can reset them at will for an incredibly nominal fee. Take whatever helps you most at a given level, and reset them every so often if you wish you could re-arrange stat enhancements. Don't worry about mirroring exactly what you'll take at 20. There's no need. For example. I wore fp+shield and used bulwark of good enhancements up to level 8, since ac-based paladins are so easy to level and she had the dexterity to fill out my MFPs anyway. Once twfing and evasion was more helpful, I respecced my enhancements and dropped 15 ac for evasion+damage in about 10 minutes.

Make sure you take the feats in the right order, since they have BAB requirements and getting all the metas+bab requiring feats in the right order is tricky.

[Gnorbert]

I know it doesn't add anything to the thread but all I could think of when I saw the build name "... the Justifier" was...

"Aryenne the Excuse Maker"

I'm not sure why that made me giggle so much... but it did.

[Junts]

i Know It Doesn't Add Anything To The Thread But All I Could Think Of When I Saw The Build Name "... The Justifier" Was...

"aryenne The Excuse Maker"

I'm Not Sure Why That Made Me Giggle So Much... But It Did.

+1

[houchin]

So I'm going to treat this like a normal Paladin build, choosing feats properly until level 7, when I eat the +2 dex tome and swap feat picked at level 6 for ITWF. Then I suppose after Paladin level 9 I will take Monk 1,2.

Thanks for the info on enhancements. What about skill points though. Should I spend everything up till level 9 in concentration and UMD? I spent 1 in Diplomacy, does that hurt me?

Thanks again!

[Junts]

So I'm going to treat this like a normal Paladin build, choosing feats properly until level 7, when I eat the +2 dex tome and swap feat picked at level 6 for ITWF. Then I suppose after Paladin level 9 I will take Monk 1,2.

Thanks for the info on enhancements. What about skill points though. Should I spend everything up till level 9 in concentration and UMD? I spent 1 in Diplomacy, does that hurt me?

Thanks again!

Not really but it doesn't much do anything either.

The main reason I did monk at level 1 was for the extra skill points. 1 conc, 1 umd every paladin level works fine. I had a +2 int tome and didn't even bother to use it on this build, she's still got 8 intel at 20. It just barely matters (6.5 balanceranks?)

getting 4x monk skill points makes for a better end build, but since monk1 does nothing until you get monk2, you're basically running around with 1 level less abilities in the low ranges

you're still overpowered, though, so it doesnt matter

the other thing that sucks about waiting is getting toughness so late; toughness and PA have to be your monk feats, as no other feat you are taking qualifies as a monk bonus

[houchin]

Thinking about it now I would probably rather take Monk at Level 1. Since Levels 1-8 should go fairly quick I would rather have the extra skill points, but I've already spent money on a 32 point build, so I should wait. I already have some favor left over, so maybe if I have enough by level 3 I will take Monk then and still be able to utilize those skill points.

[Junts]

Thinking about it now I would probably rather take Monk at Level 1. Since Levels 1-8 should go fairly quick I would rather have the extra skill points, but I've already spent money on a 32 point build, so I should wait. I already have some favor left over, so maybe if I have enough by level 3 I will take Monk then and still be able to utilize those skill points.

Once you buy 32s, you have them forever . . you don't lose anything for rerolling. Every char you make (non-drow) for the rest of forever will be a 32 point character.

Your big hurdle will be the cost of a +2 dexterity tome, though their price has reduced enough that a group of gianthold-quality characters could farm that platinum relatively fast.

[Shamurai]

Junts I'm totally liking this build... can I ask for a "screenshot" of the Char Planner lvl by lvl for this. When I TR my current Pally I want to make this one the other 2 points will probably just make me Dex 16 at start instead of 15 so yeah.. can you either post the build here or PM it to me.. As such I've been stashing away every kopesh my longsword Pally finds for twinking to the new one (no good ones yet but hopefully by the time all my greensteel stuff is done I will)

I have some of that end gear stuff already ~No Torc ~ Lorinthor's belt, what is that from? Seems familiar. Thanks Junts

[Junts]

Junts I'm totally liking this build... can I ask for a "screenshot" of the Char Planner lvl by lvl for this. When I TR my current Pally I want to make this one the other 2 points will probably just make me Dex 16 at start instead of 15 so yeah.. can you either post the build here or PM it to me.. As such I've been stashing away every kopesh my longsword Pally finds for twinking to the new one (no good ones yet but hopefully by the time all my greensteel stuff is done I will)

I have some of that end gear stuff already ~No Torc ~ Lorinthor's belt, what is that from? Seems familiar. Thanks Junts

Lorinthor's is the kotc set belt, it drops from .. uhh.. I think it's Sins of Attrition, as well as the pt 2 tod chest.

The first post of this thread is all I have for you char plannerwise; I don't use the planner to design my characters. Everything important should be in there.

I admit if I were you doing a 34 pt version I would farm up 200k plat and buy a dex tome on the AH (they're 150-200k on my server) and instead begin at 14 con.

[houchin]

Junts, did you put every skill point into concentration, umd, balance and jump? What did your UMD end up at? Once you got your Monk levels did you focus more on the balance and jump? I'm ready to advance to Paladin level 4, but I think I will do Monk level 1 at this point instead of waiting for 8-9.

Also When did you make the switch and stop using plate?

One last question, since I'm new to this game and multi-classing, if I'm level 4 paladin and level 1 monk, is that considered level 5, or do I have to hit level 5 in one class to use equipment with a level 5 requirement?

[Junts]

Junts, did you put every skill point into concentration, umd, balance and jump? What did your UMD end up at? Once you got your Monk levels did you focus more on the balance and jump? I'm ready to advance to Paladin level 4, but I think I will do Monk level 1 at this point instead of waiting for 8-9.

Also When did you make the switch and stop using plate?

One last question, since I'm new to this game and multi-classing, if I'm level 4 paladin and level 1 monk, is that considered level 5, or do I have to hit level 5 in one class to use equipment with a level 5 requirement?

I swapped to plate at 10, which was also when I took the 2nd monk level

My concentration and umd are max ranked (23 and 11)..I dont remember whta balance/jump are, they just catch the extra points, which there's not that many of. UMD and concentration are the important ones.

[Seelowe]

this build looks intruiging. mainly because it is different than most classical builds out there.
I am considering TRing my capped pure thf pally into something along these lines and I was wondering how/where you would adjust things in your build for a TR?

the way I understand it, your inventory gets stored in a TR-cache in the bank, so I could grind the equipment he would need now and use it as soon as I hit the lvl requirement on the TR instead of grinding it from scratch, which also makes me want to TR instead of rolling a new pally.

[Junts]

this build looks intruiging. mainly because it is different than most classical builds out there.
I am considering TRing my capped pure thf pally into something along these lines and I was wondering how/where you would adjust things in your build for a TR?

the way I understand it, your inventory gets stored in a TR-cache in the bank, so I could grind the equipment he would need now and use it as soon as I hit the lvl requirement on the TR instead of grinding it from scratch, which also makes me want to TR instead of rolling a new pally.

If I was a 34 pt tr i would take 14 starting con; otherwise, not really anything different.

[sephiroth1084]

One last question, since I'm new to this game and multi-classing, if I'm level 4 paladin and level 1 monk, is that considered level 5, or do I have to hit level 5 in one class to use equipment with a level 5 requirement?

Multiclassing just tacks levels of another class onto whatever you have already--the levels are additive, and so count for anything level-dependent, such as minimum levels for items.

The real important thing to take heed of when multiclassing is that many feats have a Base Attack Bonus (BAB) requirement, which you may have to wait on if you multiclass anything that doesn't have a full BAB.

[Seelowe]

If I was a 34 pt tr i would take 14 starting con; otherwise, not really anything different.

ok, I was wondering if you would be sacrificing any of the feats for the reincarnation-related one. doesn't seem like it and didn't think it would make much sense myself. thanks for the quick response :)

[Junts]

ok, I was wondering if you would be sacrificing any of the feats for the reincarnation-related one. doesn't seem like it and didn't think it would make much sense myself. thanks for the quick response :)


Uhm, that depends what past life you have. If you were going completionist, you'd take it instead of SF: umd.

I don't see any chosen feat associated with any specific class that would be worth taking instead, to be honest. None of them are really very good for most melee characters.

Several passive stacks of monks and paladin would be great, of course.

[lord_of_rage]

Uhm, that depends what past life you have. If you were going completionist, you'd take it instead of SF: umd.

I don't see any chosen feat associated with any specific class that would be worth taking instead, to be honest. None of them are really very good for most melee characters.

Several passive stacks of monks and paladin would be great, of course.

If the ranger feat works out so that you do wind up getting a +5 barkskin 3 times per rest Id actually take that feat.

[Junts]

If the ranger feat works out so that you do wind up getting a +5 barkskin 3 times per rest Id actually take that feat.


I would too on an ac build, but Aryenne doesnt break 40 with raid buffs, so it's a pretty big waste for her. She's a barb with healing spells and lay on handses. :)

I think most ac builds that would use barkskin would get more use out of the fighter feat (+1 max dex to armor) however, as it works even when you have a ranger bark, and ac builds that use robes and can't cast their own barkskins are basically limited to monks and some varieties of rogue.

[DartanTR]

Hey Junts, I was wondering, how would you match up your build vs Asseo's TWF rapier drow paladin?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2370814&postcount=5

The difference in builds looks like Aryenne wants to get hit to do guard dps while Asseo goes for high AC and not to get hit.

Is there any benefit and getting hit that often? From my current experience, getting hit by more than 3 things doing higher level quests means you're probably going to die because you can't outheal it.

Thanks for your input. I'm currently a 28 pt Jaerlach build and rethinking about what I should Greater Reinc/True Reinc when the chance comes :)

[Junts]

Hey Junts, I was wondering, how would you match up your build vs Asseo's TWF rapier drow paladin?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2370814&postcount=5

The difference in builds looks like Aryenne wants to get hit to do guard dps while Asseo goes for high AC and not to get hit.

Is there any benefit and getting hit that often? From my current experience, getting hit by more than 3 things doing higher level quests means you're probably going to die because you can't outheal it.

Thanks for your input. I'm currently a 28 pt Jaerlach build and rethinking about what I should Greater Reinc/True Reinc when the chance comes :)

Aryenne does way, way more damage than Asseo's build, which is a finesse rapier build. Even without the guards (which are just a perk), Aryenne is a focused strength khopesh twf build: her damage is competitive with pretty much everything and only about a step behind the highest damage dealers. The guard dps was an afterthought, since she's built to get hit to regenerate mana (torc) to heal herself as she doesn't have the statistics to also have a high armor class. Asseo has 22 strength. Aryenne has 34. Aryenne's focus is to be as high a dps paladin as is achievable while also having evasion and self-healing. Asseo's an ac build. The damage gap between them is considerable. The guard damage is a lot more along the lines of 'well, i have to get hit all the time to regenerate sp anyway .. so ...might as well'.

[Assio]

Yeah, Junts' build will definitely put out more DPS than my builds. I have both iterations of my build posted: the original 30 Str DPS/mild AC version and the 22 Str finesse/higher AC version.

One of the best aspects of this game is the variance on preference. My build and Junts build are meant for different purposes on different occasions. His build focuses more on DPS and mine more on survivability.

It's more of a question of how individuals prefer to play the game rather than a "which build is better." With the advent of Lesser, Greater, and True Reincarnation, you can actually experiment with both builds to see which one suits your fancy while progressing your understanding/experience within the game.

I recognize the question wasn't directed at me. I just wanted to add my perspective.

I hope you enjoy your Palidan!

[Choopak]

question for you Junts

You said you switch from plate to cloth armor at around level 10... What was your resulting AC? I realize this ain't an AC build but still, AC is AC :)

[sephiroth1084]

question for you Junts

You said you switch from plate to cloth armor at around level 10... What was your resulting AC? I realize this ain't an AC build but still, AC is AC :)
The thing is, AC isn't AC. If you're running around with 20 AC in Gianthold, you might as well be wearing nothing. And those numbers go up and up and up. By end, end game if you aren't rocking a 60+ AC before outside buffs, you can ditch the full plate, the shield and the protection item.

[MrSvinlesha]

Couple of quick questions about this build:

1) I notice that you haven't taken any monk enhancements in your enhancement list. Are enhancements like monk jump or monk concentration not worth taking for this build?

2) You write:


...3 : EWP: Khopesh
6 : Improved two weapon fighting (if you lack a no-ml tome, take any feat and swap it in at lv 7 after you eat a newstyle tome)
9 : Improved critical: slashing weapons...

What on earth is a "no-ml tome", and what is a "newstyle tome"? If I don't have any tomes, how can I compensate so as to get ITWF? Should I put a couple of bonus points (that you get for leveling) into dexterity instead of strength?

[sephiroth1084]

Couple of quick questions about this build:

1) I notice that you haven't taken any monk enhancements in your enhancement list. Are enhancements like monk jump or monk concentration not worth taking for this build?
No. Most of the skill-improving enhancements on any class tend to be a waste. Concentration isn't needed so much on this character since he won't be able to use any of the monk strikes due to be uncentered; the monk levels are strictly for Evasion, feats and possibly Wis to AC.
2) You write:



What on earth is a "no-ml tome", and what is a "newstyle tome"? If I don't have any tomes, how can I compensate so as to get ITWF? Should I put a couple of bonus points (that you get for leveling) into dexterity instead of strength?
Until recently, tomes had no minimum level, so you could read a +2 tome at level 1. A few months back Turbine changed all future tomes to have a minimum level (ML), and then about a week later retroactively changed all tomes to have a ML. Junts probably wrote this sometime before all tomes were given MLs.

Junts' suggestion is to take another feat and then replace it later with ITWF whenever you acquire and read that +2 tome. Another possibility would be holding off on the monk level until after you've acquired a +2 tome. If you're unlikely to pick up one any time soon, I'd be inclined to say that it would be reasonable to spend one level-up point on Dex in order to qualify.

[MrSvinlesha]

Thanks seph.

Looks like I'll have to redo all my enhancements (again).

:)

Oh well. Live and learn.

I will say one thing; my monk/paladin is only lvl 3 so far, but he's tough as nails.

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks seph.

Looks like I'll have to redo all my enhancements (again).

:)

Oh well. Live and learn.

I will say one thing; my monk/paladin is only lvl 3 so far, but he's tough as nails.
No prob.

Hell, I respec my enhancements just about every level (and occasionally in between), mostly because I hate having that AP icon on the screen for very long.

As for your durability, you will probably (though not definitely) find that you will be alternating between being very, very tough, and kind of squishy as you level and as you fall behind and then catch-up on equipment and stats and such. At least that's the experience I had been having with my monk. If you do find that to be the case, push through to the next point at which you will be totally badass. :)

[MrSvinlesha]

Hmmm... to take ITWF you need a BAB of 6. A lvl 1 monk/lvl 5 paladin has a BAB of 5. So how does that work?

Also, this build doesn't seem to include OTWF at all, which you can take at lvl 6 regardless of your BAB. Can you use two khopeshi without OTWF?


And another question: Paladin devotion 1+2 increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 50% and costs a total of 3 skill points.
Human Improved Recovery 1+2 (I'm assuming that's Junts means with "Human healing amp") increases the benefit you receive from healing spells by 20% and costs a total of 6 skill points. Which is to be preferred in a cost/benefit analysis? Junts doesn't have paladin devotion at all, as far as I can see.

[sephiroth1084]

Hmmm... to take ITWF you need a BAB of 6. A lvl 1 monk/lvl 5 paladin has a BAB of 5. So how does that work?

Also, this build doesn't seem to include OTWF at all, which you can take at lvl 6 regardless of your BAB. Can you use two khopeshi without OTWF?


And another question: Paladin devotion 1+2 increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 50% and costs a total of 3 skill points.
Human Improved Recovery 1+2 (I'm assuming that's Junts means with "Human healing amp") increases the benefit you receive from healing spells by 20% and costs a total of 6 skill points. Which is to be preferred in a cost/benefit analysis? Junts doesn't have paladin devotion at all, as far as I can see.
I'm too lazy to look at the build right now, so my answers are going to be a little generic.

Not sure when he was planning on taking ITWF, or when the monk levels come in. If he has monk before level 6, then the ITWF comments for 6 may just be a typo/mistake.

OTWF simply reduces the penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in your off-hand from -2 to 0, essentially granting you +2 attack bonus. You can get through nearly the entire game with that penalty with no problem. In epic it may be an issue, so carrying 1 or 2 good light off-handers may be a good call (Kukris are an excellent choice).

Devotion increases your healing by 10% per rank, so that would be +20% for 3 AP, not +50%. The real thing to consider is this: are you gaining most of your healing from healing yourself with mana, or from LoH, consumables and outside healing (someone else healing you)? If it's the former, then Devotion is better, but if it's the latter, and it's almost guaranteed to be, then Healing Amp is better. The Devotion enhancements only affect your healing spells, not LoH.

[MrSvinlesha]

Thanks again seph. That 50% above was a typo.

I'm just a bit surprised, surely I'm not the only one who's tried this build, but I'm the first to notice you can't ITWF at lvl 6?

Also, to clarify, you take a -2 penalty to hit with TWF (othewise -4, isn't it?), so wielding two khopeshi without OTWF would result in a net -4 (as opposed to khopesh + shield) -- or is my math wrong?

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks again seph. That 50% above was a typo.

I'm just a bit surprised, surely I'm not the only one who's tried this build, but I'm the first to notice you can't ITWF at lvl 6?

Also, to clarify, you take a -2 penalty to hit with TWF (othewise -4, isn't it?), so wielding two khopeshi without OTWF would result in a net -4 (as opposed to khopesh + shield) -- or is my math wrong?
No problem. Someone has to keep up with this thread while Junts is on hiatus. :cool:

And I thought the 50% was a typo, but figured I'd include the comments anyway, for the audience following along at home. :) With the healing built into this character later on, I'd probably try to fit in 2 or 3 ranks of Devotion--if Junts laid out the enhancements, I don't see where they are.

As for the TWF stuff, yeah, normally you have a -2 penalty for TWF, and then you'd suffer a further -2 for wielding a 1-hander in your off-hand, for a total penalty of -4. While not true early in the game, or in epic, a -9 penalty on your attacks is fairly insignificant for a large portion of your questing.

And I looking at it, I think Junts just forgot that monk gives a 0 BAB. I'd switch PA and ITWF.

[MrSvinlesha]

But why not go OTWF at lvl 6, and switch out PA for ITWF when it comes up instead? Would that be a viable alternative as well? And then maybe insert PA instead of one of the later spell feats?

[MrSvinlesha]

I'm trying to use the Character Planer to generate a template for this build. I've modified it somewhat based on the fact that I don't think you can get ITWF at level 6.

The feat at level 6 is problematic, because neither ITWF nor Improved crit can be taken, so I've placed Skill focus UMD there for the time being. Seems like it might be useful to have that boost around lvl 6, but in addition, you can't take both ITWF and Improved crit at lvl 9, because one of the feats taken then must be a monk feat (hence PA). Then you have to chose between ITWF or Improved crit (this version uses ITWF), or maybe you can go to Fred at some point when you've got the prerequisites (prior to lvl 9) and replace SF UMD? (I think this character would benefit more from having both those feats by lvl 9, anyway, if it's doable).

This is still just a rough draft, so critical commentary is welcome.

I've been playing a version of this build and while he is tough, he is also one of the least effective fighters in most of the groups i've been in, at least judging by final kill score. (I know you can't go entirely by that score, but I just finished running the catacombs with a dwarven fighter companion, and he consistently killed 3 to 5 times the number of mobs I did. He was lvl 5 with THF and I was lvl 4). I don't know if this is because of my play style or the character's low dps, but I suspect the latter. For that reason I've moved OTWF into a lvl 1 feat slot, so that somewhere around lvl 3 - 4 the character can start using dual khopeshi with a hopefully higher kill rate.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Essau the Hunter
Level 9 Lawful Good Human Male
(7 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 176
Spell Points: 24
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 12
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 9)
Strength 15 17
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 17

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 9) (Level 9)
Balance 7 8 8
Bluff 3 3 3
Concentration 5 8 8
Diplomacy 3 3 3
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 3 3 3
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 3 3 3
Intimidate 3 3 3
Jump 6 10 10
Listen -1 -1 -1
Move Silently 3 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1 -1
Search -1 -1 -1
Spot -1 -1 -1
Swim 2 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 5 10.5 13.5

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

[sephiroth1084]

But why not go OTWF at lvl 6, and switch out PA for ITWF when it comes up instead? Would that be a viable alternative as well? And then maybe insert PA instead of one of the later spell feats?
Well, then you're not making the same character. A big part of this guy is the self-healing ability. Without Maximize, your CSW just doesn't do enough to be worth using very often, and without Quicken you can't reliably get your spells off while in combat. Besides, the penalty just doesn't mean all that much for 90% of the game or more.

[KolbyLMD]

Since this thread gets quite a bit attention from some intelligent folks I figured I'd post my 2 TR builds in hopes of a response. Will be using Khopesh because I have Lightning 2's.

First off my Drow 30 Pointer: -1 Feat due to Khopesh which means no PA or Extend. Kind of meh enhancements. 9 Starting WIS to use my +3 WIS tome.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Lat Drow TR
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 304
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 15
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(30 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 9 12
Charisma 17 21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3.5 14
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 1 16
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 6
Listen -1 3
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 3
Spot -1 3
Swim 3 6
Tumble 2.5 3.5
Use Magic Device 5 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV





Now my Human 34 Pointer: Can get PA and Extend. Better enhancement choices such as Human Recovery and Adaptability. I will be starting with 11 CON(Bleh, I know) but that's off set with +1 CON from Human adaptability which means the same CON bracket as the Drow. I've gotten quite a bit of flack for a 11 starting CON idea... but what does it really change if I spend the AP on the enhancement.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 275
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 11 14
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 17 21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 14
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 0 2
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 0
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 12
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 6
Tumble 3 4
Use Magic Device 5 16.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

[Gercho]

I like the human better, but you may want to consider starting with cha 16 and con 14, and spending one ability point raise in cha, you are trading that way 1 point on final str for 3 point in con, the good about humans is that they can use their human adaptability to even whichever stat is odd, this way you have more freedom on what to do with your human adaptability points. If you ever get a +4 cha tome, you can then lr and get the str point back.
In general i think 3 points in con are better than 1 point in str.
The drow starts with con 12 cause over that would require too much investment, but in a 34 point human, i dont see any reason to start below 14.
In the end, the human gets over the drow +2 con +1 feat, 2 human adaptability vs +1 str +1 wis for the drow (that you could compensate with the human adap points). I didnt checked your enhancements, but you may be a little ap starved with the human. (not the drow cause drow enhancements suck, and you are not using rapiers)

[Hauteclaire]

Hey this sounds fun, but would it work with a drow and what would that build look like because I am awful at making builds. If it works with a drow, I'd like to play this. Oh and if anyone does actually want to post a build keep in mind i'd use the supreme tome since I mostly solo and would never get a shot at getting +3 or 4.

[Gercho]

Well, the problem with drow is that you have one less feat, and you dont have the human amplification enhancements, it can be done but keep in mind that this build requires high level equipment so i wouldnt recomend it for a new player....

[joecro]

hey Junts excellent work on all the pali information. Can you post Aryenne's enhancements like you did for Jaerlach?

Thanks

[lord_of_rage]

hey Junts excellent work on all the pali information. Can you post Aryenne's enhancements like you did for Jaerlach?

Thanks

Im not sure Junts has been active on the forums as of late. You might wait a bit for a reply.

[LawstCawz]

I run a similar build and I'm currently using,

Unyielding Sovereignty
Follower of the Sovereign Host
Human Adaptability Str
Human Improved Recovery 3
Way of the tortoise 1
Paladin Courage of Good 2
Paladin Divine Sacrifice 2
Paladin Exalted Smite 3
Paladin Extra LOH 3
Paladin Extra Smite 4
KoTC 3
Racial Toughness 1
Paladin Devotion 4
Paladin Energy of the Templar 2
Paladin Toughness 2
Paladin DM 3




I couldn't justify Paladin Exalted Smite 4. Exceptional stats and tomes will alter enhancement setup.
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/mizztah/

[Stillwaters]

IM LOVING THIS BUILD!!

Seriously rocks in low to mid levels - i just wish the OP would give me a hand figuring what order to take feats and enhancements in, im having difficulty following it :p

Smite for 90 at lvl 4 (im started as a veteran) with a keen puregood khopesh i got cheap at the AH OMG WOW!!

[valorik]

the enhancements order is largely irrelavent, spec for max dps

1 : Two Weapon Fighting
1M: Toughness
1H: Your choice: I took sf: umd temporarily
3 : EWP: Khopesh
6 : Improved two weapon fighting (if you lack a no-ml tome, take any feat and swap it in at lv 7 after you eat a newstyle tome)
9 : Improved critical: slashing weapons
9M: Power attack
12: Greater two weapon fighting
15: Extend spelll -> swapped for quicken spell later
18: Maximize spell (can make this empower healing spell when your sp are poor)

is the feat order as posted in the op.

[sephiroth1084]

the enhancements order is largely irrelavent, spec for max dps

1 : Two Weapon Fighting
1M: Toughness
1H: Your choice: I took sf: umd temporarily
3 : EWP: Khopesh
6 : Improved two weapon fighting (if you lack a no-ml tome, take any feat and swap it in at lv 7 after you eat a newstyle tome) Can't tke at 6 because the monk level drops your BAB by 1.
9 : Improved critical: slashing weapons
9M: Power attack
12: Greater two weapon fighting
15: Extend spelll -> swapped for quicken spell later
18: Maximize spell (can make this empower healing spell when your sp are poor)

is the feat order as posted in the op.
I'd move something else to level 6, probably Power Attack or Extend, and take ITWF with your 2nd monk level, probably at level 9.

[Calebro]

This is the first time I've seen this thread.
I have a similar build with a Drow using rapiers. It is just as much fun as the poster at the top of this page claims.
But I took Stunning Blow at level 3 to help mitigate some damage while leveling, and ITWF & GTWF at 12 and 15 respectively.

[nfdnfd]

What kind of DT do you use? Meaning... do you use Heavy or Medium ?
thanks for the tips.

[Anthios888]

What kind of DT do you use? Meaning... do you use Heavy or Medium ?
thanks for the tips.

Heavy or medium armor would not let you evade. This character should always use robes, or if you are really throwing your AC to the wind, you can use light armor (it's just hard to swap between).

[nfdnfd]

Heavy or medium armor would not let you evade. This character should always use robes, or if you are really throwing your AC to the wind, you can use light armor (it's just hard to swap between).

Yeah, i just asked cause on OP says : "This charcter lives to get hit, can heal itself forever, and does a ton of damage back when it's struck."

So i was just wondering...
Thanks for the quick answer.

[Junts]

Yeah, i just asked cause on OP says : "This charcter lives to get hit, can heal itself forever, and does a ton of damage back when it's struck."

So i was just wondering...
Thanks for the quick answer.

A robe. :) You could use dragontouched leather, but its hideous.

[sephiroth1084]

A robe. :) You could use dragontouched leather, but its hideous.
Holy ****! Are you just popping in, or are you back, Junts?!

[Arkia]

I have been reading this thread and I guess I will do Monk the 1st and 9th levels with the rest Paladin to 20 but what exactly do I spend my action points on and in what order? Can someone give me some advice on this. I started with exactly what Junts specified as far as stats, race and feats but now that I have action points to spend I just do not know what to select. I am using a 32 pt champion build.


Thanks for the help for all that reply.

[Junts]

I have been reading this thread and I guess I will do Monk the 1st and 9th levels with the rest Paladin to 20 but what exactly do I spend my action points on and in what order? Can someone give me some advice on this. I started with exactly what Junts specified as far as stats, race and feats but now that I have action points to spend I just do not know what to select. I am using a 32 pt champion build.


Thanks for the help for all that reply.

When leveling its usually best to respec every so often and take whats best for what gear you have and the monsters you are fighting.

[Arkia]

I appreciate the reply. From what you said in an earlier post it seems fairly cheap to reset enhancements so I will try a few things out. Thanks for the post and the guidance I know it will make the game more fun for me.

[ragingfungus]

For those needing help with the feat order due to the front page being in error because of the monk levels. I am currently leveling this build and going with this.

1-two weapon fighting
1h-otwf (preferred this over the sf umd you can do either)
1m-toughness
3-khopesh
6-extend(switching with quicken later or take it now)
9-itwf
9m-power attack
12-improved crit slashing
15-gtwf
18-maximize

Awesome build btw loving it currently lvl 9

[Junts]

For those needing help with the feat order due to the front page being in error because of the monk levels. I am currently leveling this build and going with this.

1-two weapon fighting
1h-otwf (preferred this over the sf umd you can do either)
1m-toughness
3-khopesh
6-extend
9-itwf
9m-power attack
12-improved crit slashing
15-gtwf
18-maximize

Awesome build btw loving it currently lvl 9

I've been considering the same feat swap.

[sephiroth1084]

For those needing help with the feat order due to the front page being in error because of the monk levels. I am currently leveling this build and going with this.

1-two weapon fighting
1h-otwf (preferred this over the sf umd you can do either)
1m-toughness
3-khopesh
6-extend
9-itwf
9m-power attack
12-improved crit slashing
15-gtwf
18-maximize

Awesome build btw loving it currently lvl 9
This loses Quicken. OTWF probably makes sense for Epic, but Quicken is still probably better than Extend for tough content.

[Junts]

Yeah if the healing is working in this build, quicken is a must and extend is irrelevant, since you'll have the sp income to maintain.

I missed that tweak, its a bad one. sf umd > otwf is totally viable though.

[ragingfungus]

Yeah if the healing is working in this build, quicken is a must and extend is irrelevant, since you'll have the sp income to maintain.

I missed that tweak, its a bad one. sf umd > otwf is totally viable though.

Yea i simply took extend because quicken wouldnt do much until later on I will probably switch it out later

[Junts]

Yea i simply took extend because quicken wouldnt do much until later on I will probably switch it out later

Thats what I did as well, i only recently actually got the torc, I'd say it took around 5mos play considering my hiatus from the game.

[easterwhale]

I have CO cloak and Torc(40th run , ouch).
The SP regen with Torc is really powerful and dramatic

this is the video i made of soloing sins normal :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z6yf67StEU

hope it helps.

[Junts]

The megaman music is win.

[maddmatt70]

The megaman music is win.

Well seeing as how you are back Junts what do you think of the 14 paladin 6 monk build compared to this build. That build would likely be a race elf and use whirling strike feat with longswords. The dps is probably only slightly less then this build (5% doublestrike increase with monk 6 stance vs. khopesh, divine might 3 and paladin 3rd tier pre enhancement), but has more utility such as the healing ki and some other basic monk finishers - it also has a higher to hit which is nice for epics.

That 14 paladin 6 monk would seem to fit what I percieve of your playstyle better then this 18 paladin 2 monk build. I currently have a 14 paladin 3 monk elf that I am playing around with and a level 12 (going to be level 20 paladin) human twf khopesh paladin that I am leveling. Both are very interesting the 14 paladin 3 monk character might be the most intense character I have ever played because so much crazy clicking.

[Junts]

Well seeing as how you are back Junts what do you think of the 14 paladin 6 monk build compared to this build. That build would likely be a race elf and use whirling strike feat with longswords. The dps is probably only slightly less then this build (5% doublestrike increase with monk 6 stance vs. khopesh, divine might 3 and paladin 3rd tier pre enhancement), but has more utility such as the healing ki and some other basic monk finishers - it also has a higher to hit which is nice for epics.

That 14 paladin 6 monk would seem to fit what I percieve of your playstyle better then this 18 paladin 2 monk build. I currently have a 14 paladin 3 monk elf that I am playing around with and a level 12 (going to be level 20 paladin) human twf khopesh paladin that I am leveling. Both are very interesting the 14 paladin 3 monk character might be the most intense character I have ever played because so much crazy clicking.

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

[Junts]

Again I can't describe how happy I am about the megaman music.

[Gercho]

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

2 things, one is that the build that matt describes uses longswords not handwraps with the new feat that allows monks to be centered while using them... not sure it changes your point of view about the build, just pointing that out.
The second thing, about the thf build you mention, what would you use the feats you save from thf into? i think you can get the feats and self healing with:

Going human:
3 thf feats, power attack, thoughness, ic: slashing, maximize and quicken, thats the build that i plan to tr into, but if you have a better use for the feats i will like to know it.

[Junts]

2 things, one is that the build that matt describes uses longswords not handwraps with the new feat that allows monks to be centered while using them... not sure it changes your point of view about the build, just pointing that out.
The second thing, about the thf build you mention, what would you use the feats you save from thf into? i think you can get the feats and self healing with:

Going human:
3 thf feats, power attack, thoughness, ic: slashing, maximize and quicken, thats the build that i plan to tr into, but if you have a better use for the feats i will like to know it.

I actually think handwraps might still be better; they are still fairly faster than other attack styles in a baseline

That's a lot of wasted feats to be worse against evil outsiders and get some minor benefits. There's no 2 feat slots in this build with the healing for those, and you only get one back from monk6.

Most of this build's feats, and the required feats, have BAB requirements that make squeezing them into higher level slots very difficult.

Your feat suggestion, for example, will work, but only barely, because you must take both metamagics + imp crit + ithf and gthf all level 6 and later (so those are your 6 9 12 15 18 feats).

Adding more feats with pre-requisites, or BAB requirements (when you want to go lv 1 monk for the sp if possible) really makes it a nightmare with the whirling steel strike. I am not impressed by WSS as a feat unlses you are a 12 kensai build.

[Gercho]

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.
My second part was about this, was asking about what will you do with the thf feats in the pure pala build with capstone+healing? ... since it seems you can fit all the thf and self healing anyway, if i would drop the thf line what should i get instead?

[maddmatt70]

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

[Junts]

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

However, since the sidestep change you can make a thf paladin with no feats, make a silver epic sos, and have plenty of feats to -also- heal yourself at pure 20.

Why not do that exactly?

Aryenne hits herself for around 180-230 per csw casting now, at 42% healing amp.

[Khellendros13]

Junts, I was thinking of a pally build based around self healing and healing amp, the evasion and free feats to cover the meta's made sense to me. Just read the whole thread, and it is very much what I was thinking.

I plan to TR my 18/2 Fighter/Rogue to 18/2 Pally /Monk.
I crafted 2x lit2 khopeshes, to tier2 already. I added 30% heal amp to my off hand khopesh, and combined with leviks bracers I scroll heal myself for 171 now. I plan to use Holy Sword/heal amp khopesh for most trash.
Add in the devotion enhancements,heal amp enhancements and ardor pots and it should be very high heal amp.

I saw you had greater devotion 8 on a ring. I plan on using the vendor 3min pots instead, and putting 20% heal amp on the ring instead. Conc op bracers with 45hp, SP goggles with cha skills (swap to tharnes when on the back of raid bosses). If this ends up being troublesome, I might move it to cloak instead and eventually put rad2 or another guard there as a swappable without losing SP.

Ideally guards on DT too along with with GFL.

Very much looking forward to the TR, about 5~ raid completions to go for a cleanser and hopefully Torc, and tomes.

I will probably take Extend early on then swap it for OTWF when I get back to Epics.

Thanks again, and that video was awesome easterwhale :)

[Junts]

Junts, I was thinking of a pally build based around self healing and healing amp, the evasion and free feats to cover the meta's made sense to me. Just read the whole thread, and it is very much what I was thinking.

I plan to TR my 18/2 Fighter/Rogue to 18/2 Pally /Monk.
I crafted 2x lit2 khopeshes, to tier2 already. I added 30% heal amp to my off hand khopesh, and combined with leviks bracers I scroll heal myself for 171 now. I plan to use Holy Sword/heal amp khopesh for most trash.
Add in the devotion enhancements,heal amp enhancements and ardor pots and it should be very high heal amp.

I saw you had greater devotion 8 on a ring. I plan on using the vendor 3min pots instead, and putting 20% heal amp on the ring instead. Conc op bracers with 45hp, SP goggles with cha skills (swap to tharnes when on the back of raid bosses). If this ends up being troublesome, I might move it to cloak instead and eventually put rad2 or another guard there as a swappable without losing SP.

Ideally guards on DT too along with with GFL.

Very much looking forward to the TR, about 5~ raid completions to go for a cleanser and hopefully Torc, and tomes.

I will probably take Extend early on then swap it for OTWF when I get back to Epics.

Thanks again, and that video was awesome easterwhale :)

Don't put healing amp on your khopesh: finish your strike (you cant get amp on a strike).

You can get amp on many other slots, and 42% from human 20 and 20 item is more than enough.

I now use the ring + vendor pots, as this post hasn't been updated. I'm too busy playing to do all that work!

I went and did the same run easter did last night for giggles; its interesting how different the two perform due to the guard differences (hes using air + radiance, I have light strike + salt + disintegrate). My healing was much more frenzied, and my completion time was lower, but that is mostly that my gear is otherwise a lot more complete (kotc set bonus, etc). I don't have titans grip though, still .. IQ isn't any fun to farm.

[Dim_Mak]

I took Weapon Focus at LVL6 instead of ITW because i lacked the old school +2 DEX tome. Then i took ITWF adn PA at lvl 9...went to FRED to replace focus with ICS and ...i can't do it..because focus is lower level feat than ICS..am i doomed? what am i supposed to do now?
LR?

update:
i foudn a workaround lol...one nice fella helped me.
i sawpped focus with extend and ill take ICS at 15 instead extedn omg i was like doomed :D

[Anthios888]

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

Jaer likes to be able to heal himself (even if he always make me heal him), but DPS is far too important to drop to using longswords. Not only that, but he'd lose more high level spells, mana, etc. I can see the 14/6 build being OK, but that Knight of the Chalice III gives a lot of DPS against evil outsiders. And since it also has the advantage against anything autocrit, I'd much rather take it into my party than the 14/6.

It's basically just taking the 20 paladin version and adding very reliable self-healing from spells (instead of scrolls). The 3d6 weapons of good capstone is unreal uber, but I can see how a lot of players would prefer evasion. This toons hows how to maximize your DPS while still being what a lot of feel paladins should be: self-healers.

P.S. I had this build, I hated it, it was the most horrible thing I have ever played. Not that it couldn't kill things, but I just, I just hated it irrationally. But Jaer likes it. And, it's probably one of his least-gimped toons. So, not every build is going to fit with every player.

http://jaynenelson.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-kitten-is-bored-from-walking-in-your-shoes.jpg

[Junts]

I wasn't willing to trade the capstone for etiher evasion or healing, so i basically traded it for both.

I don't think it'd be worth swapping for just one or the other.

If Matt is interested in seeing what happens when you combine THF and healing, he should probably look at Jaerlach instead: at this point that's pretty much a character trading the last smite tier and the kotc enhancements for the ability to buff to 90 ac. THF gives so much more flexibility that making a thf character who doesn't do other things seems really wasteful to me .. the feats end up pretty poorly spent.

[Anthios888]

THF gives so much more flexibility that making a thf character who doesn't do other things seems really wasteful to me .. the feats end up pretty poorly spent.

QFT - at least until they makes greater two handed fighting feats more of an asset for two handed characters, or change current endgame encounters to encourage more pack-o-mobs glancing blow madness. Twitch is just better right now.

[Junts]

Just to make everyone more confused, I've updated the OP to contemporary equipment etc.

I'll add that while I had a hard time getting the healing items together (torc didn't come til I returned from my break, etc), I got extremely lucky with my dps gear and it probably went a long way to my enjoyment. Anthios had the healing gear and none of the DPS gear and was frequently frustrated by the damage output, which I suspect I would have been too if I wasn't pulling my kotc set ring on my 3rd tower and my goggles on my 4th vod and suchlike.

[CaptainFatpants]

P.S. I had this build, I hated it, it was the most horrible thing I have ever played. Not that it couldn't kill things, but I just, I just hated it irrationally.

Generally, I love what you do with your builds. I don't have the time to farm like crazy for Epic stuff or even non-epic stuff so I feel I cannot claim to know what the real end-game feels like right now.

That being said, I love this build. I LR'ed my pure pally into this. She wasn't capped yet, so I didn't have WoG. Right now, she is 17/2. I self-heal very well. I out-DPS most of the random people with whom I group. I am also, apparently, a poor enough player that I appreciate evasion very much.

So, is the problem that good players are not willing to trade 3d6 situational damage for something they don't need (evasion) and two feats for a feat-starved class?

[CaptainFatpants]

This build is one of the better self-healers out there because it's able to fit more devotion enhancements and more healing amplification into its equipment than is typical. Running at 44% incoming healing most of the time, and full paladin devotion, the CSW with maximize alone routinely break 200. With the airship 10% amp buff, I have broken 250. In comparison, my other paladin healer can only afford two tiers of devotion and 1 of human healing amp, and heals for 130-190ish.

I have Paladin Devotion IV, Maximize and Human healing amp 2 with Healing amp 20% on my DT and I cannot hit 200 without quaffing a Greater Ardor pot. Is that how you hit 200 on Aryenne? Or, am I missing something?

[Junts]

I have Paladin Devotion IV, Maximize and Human healing amp 2 with Healing amp 20% on my DT and I cannot hit 200 without quaffing a Greater Ardor pot. Is that how you hit 200 on Aryenne? Or, am I missing something?

superior ardor pot

and if you aren't using them all the time, you're doing something wrong. It goes without saying!

[CaptainFatpants]

superior ardor pot

and if you aren't using them all the time, you're doing something wrong. It goes without saying!

Just checkin'. That's what I thought. Danke.

[Junts]

Generally, I love what you do with your builds. I don't have the time to farm like crazy for Epic stuff or even non-epic stuff so I feel I cannot claim to know what the real end-game feels like right now.

That being said, I love this build. I LR'ed my pure pally into this. She wasn't capped yet, so I didn't have WoG. Right now, she is 17/2. I self-heal very well. I out-DPS most of the random people with whom I group. I am also, apparently, a poor enough player that I appreciate evasion very much.

So, is the problem that good players are not willing to trade 3d6 situational damage for something they don't need (evasion) and two feats for a feat-starved class?

I think Rock's problem had more to do with how limited the healing ability felt (healing other people more than occaisionally isn't really viable) and how narrowly focused the dps ability is without considerable endgame gear (lightning strikes, ravager set, etc). At 17/2, when you're fighting giants in prey or humans in the inspired quarter, you're a pretty bad damage dealer compared to most other melees, since you have next to none of your damage bonuses. It takes a long time for that to catch up to what a ranger or barb or fighter can output on a wider range of monsters.

[CaptainFatpants]

I think Rock's problem had more to do with how limited the healing ability felt (healing other people more than occaisionally isn't really viable) and how narrowly focused the dps ability is without considerable endgame gear (lightning strikes, ravager set, etc). At 17/2, when you're fighting giants in prey or humans in the inspired quarter, you're a pretty bad damage dealer compared to most other melees, since you have next to none of your damage bonuses. It takes a long time for that to catch up to what a ranger or barb or fighter can output on a wider range of monsters.

From this I can only assume that the "catch up" the Pally/Monk has to do is the same catch up that any character can do; guards, LitII, set bonuses, etc. The difference is that the other characters start at a higher DPS and will remain so given the same equipment.

Given your experience, how true is my statement?

Also, I find it hard to believe that Rock balked at any engame gear layout necessities. I've MyDDO'd some of her toons. Yikes. :)

[Junts]

From this I can only assume that the "catch up" the Pally/Monk has to do is the same catch up that any character can do; guards, LitII, set bonuses, etc. The difference is that the other characters start at a higher DPS and will remain so given the same equipment.

Given your experience, how true is my statement?

Also, I find it hard to believe that Rock balked at any engame gear layout necessities. I've MyDDO'd some of her toons. Yikes. :)

It has more to do with how focused paladin damage dealing ability is: the benefits in comparison to a hybrid melee (say, a favored soul built to melee) aren't all that much higher against stuff the bonus damage doesn't apply to. If it isn't an evil outsider or (thanks to kotc's odd behavior) undead, there's only zeal + some divine might standing between a paladin and a melee-specced fvs .. and I think its safe to say that their healing, cc, bb, etc, are a lot better.

For contrast, look at Rock's hybrid self-healing melee (Rockelle, a ranger): more consistent damage, but lower vs the stuff the paladin build specializes in, but with a lot more versitility (manyshot, fom, high dc stunning blow).

Aryenne basically does three things: hit undead and evil outsiders -really- hard, hit other stuff fairly hard, and keep itself alive in emergencies. That can be quite effective, and I'm happy with her performance, but especially after dropping sf: umd for otwf, it's a pretty narrow character design. Kill things and stay alive are basically the limits of what the build does well. It doesn't have a lot of the other perks that paladins can bring (for example, she can never deathward people, since zeal+csw consume those two spell slots), nor does it get the ultimate advantages of a pure build (the ability to use stuff like epic sos or epic chaosblades against any foe). It isn't a set of decisions without drawbacks, but if you're enjoying it (like I do), it can be quite effective, and its a really, really effective melee in nonepic questing. In epic, it has to work a bit harder, because a lot of the fundamental concepts of the build (guard dps, sp regen vs torc, lots of damage boosts without necessarily to-hit boosts) aren't things that work particularly well on epic. I overcome it basically by throwing equipment at the problem, but I still can't stun things to save my life, and without a bauble, I still use more mana pots on this character than any of my others, including my raid-healing capable bard.

Aryenne is an independence build; Rock builds incredibly team-oriented characters. Aryenne can't heal other people and can't stun for other people. She's self-contained, and that is certainly a build flaw in some situations, because she doesn't synergize as well with party members as builds that are designed for that purpose.

[CaptainFatpants]

Aryenne is an independence build; Rock builds incredibly team-oriented characters. Aryenne can't heal other people and can't stun for other people. She's self-contained, and that is certainly a build flaw in some situations, because she doesn't synergize as well with party members as builds that are designed for that purpose.

Yessir. I think I am starting to see that in my game play. I gravitate to self-sufficient builds right now and I am starting to realize that if I want to start running effectively in Epic content that I may have to rethink that strategy just a little.

Thanks for the replies, Jaer (or Junts, as you prefer). It is very much appreciated!

[Junts]

Yessir. I think I am starting to see that in my game play. I gravitate to self-sufficient builds right now and I am starting to realize that if I want to start running effectively in Epic content that I may have to rethink that strategy just a little.

Thanks for the replies, Jaer (or Junts, as you prefer). It is very much appreciated!


I run Aryenne in epic and she does pretty well because she is a good dealer of damage, but she isn't a good choice for a group that lacks a stunner or a mass holder or something, since she can't incapacitate a mob by herself.

[Tobril]

Somebody mentioned something about 14/6 longsword users, presumably with WSS taking advantage of FoL so I thought to chime in a sec:

Longsword DPS really sucks.

The only nice thing about those types of builds is the solo survivability.

If you primarily group with people having the tier 3 (or capstone, for that matter) and useful non-longsword weapons is a night-and-day difference in DPS.

[ColinQ]

I’m currently in the process of leveling my 30pt drow Pal18/2Mk (almost capped)
I initially build the toon based on the lightbringer aiming for a finesse AC build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=242153)


Not particular happy with the damage while leveling up and been in the drawing board for another Pal18/2Monk builds
(the thought of 2nd TR just to up a bracket on STR/CON with a +3 tome is not particularly inspiring and I can always even those numbers with guild buff)
This is what I currently have in mind

Pt Stats Lv Tome Item Enh Excpt Total
Str 6 14 5 2 6 3 30
Dex 6 16 2 7 2 3 30
Con 6 12 2 6 2 22
Int 0 10 3 13
Wis 6 14 2 6 1 1 24
Cha 6 16 2 6 1 1 26

Feat:
TWFx3
IC
CE
Toughness
PA
Extend
OTWF (currently Finess, but that will change after I LR into strength build)
last 2 feat open for debate, potential for Max/Qkn/Dodge/Ranger pastlife or any other suggestions

The idea behind this toon is that I can spec for DoS and reach decent 600ish HP, 70ish self buff AC, with raid buff of mid 80s, 90s if star aligned with tomes, loots and bug fixes (still working on DOS ring/spectral seal/scrolls) *
But also re-spec enhancement for damage/self healing when AC is not needed

So my question to the residential Pally expert(s)
Am I being greedy by trying to achieve too much?
Is there any glaring holes in the build I’m missing?
How much DPS am I missing on by from 1 less strength bracket, Rapiers vs KPS, (potentially) lack of OTWF?
How much utility am I missing from lack of consistent self heal (needing to grind for torc if going that route)
I don’t plan to ever tank Horoth on hard/elite (80 AC, 600HP, Evasion should be sufficient on normal) or run epic extensively as I have other toons more suitable in those situations (this toon should be capable of draw agro from archers in EDQ and fire elemental in 3rd base of EVON)


*HP/AC breakdown
HP
Heroic Durability 20
Paladin 180
Monk 16
Toughness 22
Racial Toughness 20
Paladin Toughness 40
Constitution bonus 120
Greater False Life item 30
Shroud HP item 45
Draconic favor 10
Minos Legos 20
Base 523

Stance 40
Yog pots 40
Tanking Horth 603

Rage 20
Madstone 40
Madstone 40
Other 703



AC
Base 10
Bracer 8
ICY 4
Alcmy 1
Insight 4
Dex 10
Wis 7
Aura 6
Monk 1
TOD set 2
Base (PA) 53

Bark 3
Faith 5
Haste 1
Stance 4
CE 5
shield 4
Yog 1
Yog 1
Self buff 75

Guild 3
Ranger Bark 2
Bard 4
Recite 2
Situational 86

Chattering 3
+4 dex tome 1
+4 Wis tome 1
Excessive Grind 91

[Junts]

remember yugo pots are -5% attack speed; i wouldnt use them for tanking anything unless you're using intimidate.

[ColinQ]

remember yugo pots are -5% attack speed; i wouldnt use them for tanking anything unless you're using intimidate.

Pal/Mk mean I don’t have anywhere close to enough Intimidate to pull Horoth, and I had a few bad memories of intim tanking in TOD (more due to lag than player/character issue, but that is part of the equation when playing from outside US)

Without Yogo Pots, my HP would be 563 (without madstone), I suppose it increase the risk of rolling 1s on disintegrate

Q: In DoS will I be able to generate enough hate to maintain aggro from a decent group (not epically geared, but standard TOD ring, +3 tome, Min2/Lit2, bloodstone etc etc) with normal swing speed/with -5% swing speed? (it would be a judgment call on if I want to play is save or facing lousy DPS)

Q2: Is my build concept valid? Or would there be some holes I need to address

Q3: Would I pull my weight in epic quest/raids? Or will I be lacking in DPS/AB to meaningfully contribute?

[Junts]

Pal/Mk mean I don’t have anywhere close to enough Intimidate to pull Horoth, and I had a few bad memories of intim tanking in TOD (more due to lag than player/character issue, but that is part of the equation when playing from outside US)

Without Yogo Pots, my HP would be 563 (without madstone), I suppose it increase the risk of rolling 1s on disintegrate

Q: In DoS will I be able to generate enough hate to maintain aggro from a decent group (not epically geared, but standard TOD ring, +3 tome, Min2/Lit2, bloodstone etc etc) with normal swing speed/with -5% swing speed? (it would be a judgment call on if I want to play is save or facing lousy DPS)

Q2: Is my build concept valid? Or would there be some holes I need to address

Q3: Would I pull my weight in epic quest/raids? Or will I be lacking in DPS/AB to meaningfully contribute?

If you use divine righteousness, you could threat tank pretty well.

I hvaent had time to read over everything in close detail: i'll do that later.

[Irinis]

if u put 1000 smurves in front of 1000 computers, eventually one of them will make a pally that isnt a complete abomination.

Hmmm. Junts, are you blue IRL?

[stoolcannon]

Question now that I'm getting geared up a bit and getting ready to really dig into this build.

1. What level/quests can I expect to solo? Yes yes I know, Sunny Side. Seriously though I'm considering a GR back to my capstone based on the results of this inquiry. I'm hoping the self healing is enough to sustain myself through a lot of the higher level quests and don't in any way expect to solo raids.

2. What's the method for playing this toon when solo? Does it require you to wear your DPS gear to be viable and kill of bosses and then run behind a corner, UMD gear swap, heal and go back in or can you get away with wearing your UMD gear during solo quests 100% of the time while soloing. I ask this because I know there are builds out there that require swapping gear to heal then going back into DPS mode

3. How well will this work with just a conc-opp item and no Torc? Needless to say that bastard torc does not want to drop for me

4. Is 35 enough to no-fail heal scrolls? I had a link somewhere for the UMD requirement for scrolls and can't find it at the moment

5. If I manage to pull an eSoS I'm assuming it would be worth it to go back to capstone? I assume many of the same principles would still apply regarding self healing, I'd just sacrifice the evasion correct?

6. Partially question #1 and Question #5. I really want my capstone back and I'm wondering if evasion is a 100% requirement for this type of solo toon to stay on its feet or if I can go the other route, get decent AC +UMD and trade off less spell damage for less melee damage?

My indecisiveness is starting to annoy me. I started off making a lit II and got it to tier 2 and then decided to go with MinII's instead since I run a lot of high level raids etc and wanted the convenience of not having to take the holy sword with me at all times and at the same time have extra damage against those other mobs out there that need the DR+metalline. So now I have a completed min II and a tier II lit II. Now if I switch back to pali my litII's will have the good DR Bypass but will they still need metalline or silver to bypass devil DR or am I mistaken? I think they do but I want to be sure. Am I just being completely dumb and Holy/Good do the same thing for DR bypass/good?

[Anthios888]

1. What level/quests can I expect to solo? Yes yes I know, Sunny Side. Seriously though I'm considering a GR back to my capstone based on the results of this inquiry. I'm hoping the self healing is enough to sustain myself through a lot of the higher level quests


This build does not heal well enough to solo much more than any other paladin that can use wands and cast cure spells. Your SP will be blown extremely quickly -- moreso if you do not have greensteel mana items and torc. The whole idea of the torc and quicken is generally and endgame concept that brings the build to the next level. Being able to accomplish specific feats will generally come later in life. I should temper this by adding that any evasion paladin with some healing, buffs, and good DPS is already going to be able to solo most things in ddo with the patience.




2. What's the method for playing this toon when solo? Does it require you to wear your DPS gear to be viable and kill of bosses and then run behind a corner, UMD gear swap, heal and go back in or can you get away with wearing your UMD gear during solo quests 100% of the time while soloing. I ask this because I know there are builds out there that require swapping gear to heal then going back into DPS mode


It's a lot of gear swapping. The idea behind quickened heals is that everything is static and you do not need to worry about a umd check to stay up. The great thing about paladins, though, is that you can save lays on hands for the super tough fights and never have to back out. Wands/scrolls/cures should get you through the rest.



3. How well will this work with just a conc-opp item and no Torc?
I don't want to be cynical, but the healing will hardly ever work unless you are chugging pots like mad. You'll be golden for about five or six casts, and then you're oom. That said, it's nice to have effectively another few lays on hands, right? Uninterruptable healing is good even if you can't sustain it for a long period of time.



4. Is 35 enough to no-fail heal scrolls?
39 UMD is nofail.



5. If I manage to pull an eSoS I'm assuming it would be worth it to go back to capstone? I assume many of the same principles would still apply regarding self healing, I'd just sacrifice the evasion correct?

Highly personal and depends on your style. Epic sword of shadows is a lot of DPS. Fan has a pure SoS healing paladin here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227645). Khopeshes are also a very nice choice in general. Two-handed certainly makes it easier to be pure while fitting in healing feats.



6. Partially question #1 and Question #5. I really want my capstone back and I'm wondering if evasion is a 100% requirement for this type of solo toon to stay on its feet or if I can go the other route, get decent AC +UMD and trade off less spell damage for less melee damage?

A lot of paladins can solo. Evasion is something that only helps, it's not an absolute. You could just have good DPS and umd and be able to solo certain things, too. Where endurance counts, scrolls are better. Where you're going to get interrupted (high damage situations), quickened heals are better for soloing. But both are better than most toons bring to the party!



So now I have a completed min II and a tier II lit II. Now if I switch back to pali my litII's will have the good DR Bypass but will they still need metalline or silver to bypass devil DR or am I mistaken? I think they do but I want to be sure. Am I just being completely dumb and Holy/Good do the same thing for DR bypass/good?

Any holy weapons will bypass the DR on devils that are not the raid bosses. Raid bosses also require silver, meaning that lightnings will not be ideal on arraetrekos, suulomedes, nytherios, judge, or horoth. Orthons such as the jailer will still be fine. That's why most paladins make lightning IIs and use holy swords for those specific fights. Lazy paladins make both so that they don't have to use holy swords.

[stoolcannon]

Awesome, thanks for the post and for being so detailed.

PS - I was the unfortunate barbarian soulstone that "completed" edq with you yesterday. Horrible, horrible run for me.

[Anthios888]

Awesome, thanks for the post and for being so detailed.

PS - I was the unfortunate barbarian soulstone that "completed" edq with you yesterday. Horrible, horrible run for me.

You took it too hard, it's not your fault we went in with one healer (me) who got TKed off the side like a huge newb ;)

[stoolcannon]

You took it too hard, it's not your fault we went in with one healer (me) who got TKed off the side like a huge newb ;)

Would have helped if I could have had sound on. I missed all the lols when someone realized we didnt even have ONE healer the first run.

I had just said "Not shrining" and was fighting along thinking "**** if I don't get some heals I'm going down fast and hard. I started looking at the group list to see which healer to hate ;) when I noticed hmmmm there IS NO HEALER.

I then had to double check to see if I was indeed on an epic run and yes, I sure was lol.

Good times.

[NaturalHazard]

hmmm any chance you could take the greater twf later on and take improved crit slashing earlier and just use 2 handed weapons up till that point?

[Junts]

updated

[MrAakmr]

Just a quick question about your updated gear set, but how do you find the to-hit in the epics with that setup?
It seems like you've lost a lot of to-hit (2(or 4 w/o a bard) from epic Spec Gloves, 1 from +5 SA -> +4 SA, 4 from destruction) and gained 1 from the Str bracket.
And going by how my own Evasion Paladin goes in epics (where I have to turn PA off way too much for my liking) that would be significant.

For me, I'm probably going to move to a 3 piece Abashai set up (boots-gloves-helm) and maybe work in the Shintao set situationally (some of my monk playing friends are going to kill me when I loot the kyoshos for "situational" use ;)), and use the Vulkroom Fighting leathers for the +4 to-hit.

[Junts]

My 34pt life was fighter, so my base tohit is the same. I am not worried about the 1 sneak attack hit as I have few issues hitting when I don't have aggro. Redscale is too much dps to give up. Similarly, claw is wayy better dps than abishai and works everywhere as well as giving important healing amp for csw and the 2 con. I'd not mind abishai also but there just isn't space for the cloak without losing the torc.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm thinking of GRing my 28pt THF pally into a 32pt version of this. As I have alread a +3 Cha tome, my initial stat spread shall look like this:

16 Str (all level ups here)
15 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
15 Cha, getting DM III with a +3 Cha tome.

Is this sensible?

[Junts]

I'm thinking of GRing my 28pt THF pally into a 32pt version of this. As I have alread a +3 Cha tome, my initial stat spread shall look like this:

16 Str (all level ups here)
15 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
15 Cha, getting DM III with a +3 Cha tome.

Is this sensible?

That's pretty much what my 32 looked like. Being able to heal is largely equipment based. If you have thf weapons already you could do the same on a pure palu thf. Drop otwf and kjopesh and you're set.

[karl_k0ch]

That's pretty much what my 32 looked like. Being able to heal is largely equipment based. If you have thf weapons already you could do the same on a pure palu thf. Drop otwf and kjopesh and you're set.

I am actually interested in going from THF to TWF. while I do have a SoS and I am enjoying it, it is not an epic one. And the fact that you can get Holy Sword Khopeshes, but no Falchions is making things worse.

I don't quite get that last advice. For, a pure human you are suggesting to drop Khopesh, but keep TWF? Or are you saying that if I wanted to stay pure THF, but with the same amount of self-healing options as in your build, this would be perfectly doable?

[unbongwah]

For, a pure human you are suggesting to drop Khopesh, but keep TWF? Or are you saying that if I wanted to stay pure THF, but with the same amount of self-healing options as in your build, this would be perfectly doable?
I'm no Junts, but I'd guess he meant to say that a THF pure pally version would take Toughness, THF x3, PA, IC Slash, Maximize, & Quicken. Also as a THFer w/out Evasion, you could dump-stat DEX, making it easier on a 32-pt build. [EDIT: in fact you could start 17 / 8 / 14 / 8 / 8 / 17; w/+3 CHA tome you can also add DM IV if you can squeeze in 4 APs somewhere.] Presuming Quicken & Maximize are essential, a TWF pure pally would probably have to choose between khopesh or IC:S, either of which sacrifices DPS; hence the monk splash to get extra feats and add Evasion while you're at it.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm no Junts, but I'd guess he meant to say that a THF pure pally version would take Toughness, THF x3, PA, IC Slash, Maximize, & Quicken. Also as a THFer w/out Evasion, you could dump-stat DEX, making it easier on a 32-pt build. [EDIT: in fact you could start 17 / 8 / 14 / 8 / 8 / 17; w/+3 CHA tome you can also add DM IV if you can squeeze in 4 APs somewhere.] Presuming Quicken & Maximize are essential, a TWF pure pally would probably have to choose between khopesh or IC:S, either of which sacrifices DPS; hence the monk splash to get extra feats and add Evasion while you're at it.
Well, the current version of Flodur was following the 28pt THF build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=240780) by Goldeneye, starting with 16/8/13/8/8/17; 4 level ups in Str, 1 in Cha.
To me, this minor change does not justfy a Greater Reincarnation. The plan is actually to go TWF once I GR.

[Junts]

I am actually interested in going from THF to TWF. while I do have a SoS and I am enjoying it, it is not an epic one. And the fact that you can get Holy Sword Khopeshes, but no Falchions is making things worse.

I don't quite get that last advice. For, a pure human you are suggesting to drop Khopesh, but keep TWF? Or are you saying that if I wanted to stay pure THF, but with the same amount of self-healing options as in your build, this would be perfectly doable?

Sorry I typed that on my Torch.

If you have weapons for thf, you can just drop khopesh and turn the twf feats into thf feats and be pure (gaining capstone, potential esos use etc) at the cost of evasion.

For twf, your layout is correct. If you have no weapons at all, gtwf is inded better.

Please keep in mind that without a shroud sp item and some sources of sp regen (a talisman or a bauble, a torc, con opp etc), and/or some healing amp (on a tod ring, for example, plus human enh), your self healing probably wont be very impressive or enduring. Its a good goal to work towards, but don't expect it to save you a ton in epic past what your LOH can do until you're equipped for it. I have no idea what you've got on your toon, though.

This is a youtube vid from someone who made the build with a bit different gear arrangement from about a year ago. His healing output is pretty anemic by the standard I'm capable of (he isnt using ardor with the 75% bonus and has less amp etc), but equally you take so much more damage in epic that you could never heal yourself this infinitely without outside sp sources beyodn the torc. With a bauble, you'll get through most epics mostly healing yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z6yf67StEU

This build was recently made way more efficient due to the sp reductions to cure serious wounds, as it now costs 47 sp maximized+quickened, it used to cost 60. When you are using about 1400 sp per quest (base 600ish + bauble + torc regen or whatnot), that adds up to a lot more casts.

[karl_k0ch]

Please keep in mind that without a shroud sp item and some sources of sp regen (a talisman or a bauble, a torc, con opp etc), and/or some healing amp (on a tod ring, for example, plus human enh), your self healing probably wont be very impressive or enduring. Its a good goal to work towards, but don't expect it to save you a ton in epic past what your LOH can do until you're equipped for it. I have no idea what you've got on your toon, though.

I'm pretty light on actual Epic stuff, and no ToD rings yet. But I've got Amara's Belt and I'm one large scale away from ConcOpp goggles (150 SP, +5 Cha skills), so I'm already making steps in the right direction.

[Junts]

I'm pretty light on actual Epic stuff, and no ToD rings yet. But I've got Amara's Belt and I'm one large scale away from ConcOpp goggles (150 SP, +5 Cha skills), so I'm already making steps in the right direction.

its worth pointing out that since you're only casting a level 4 spell, all you need are superior ardor 4 pots from house p or crafted ardor clickies.

For nonepic, as you can see in the video, the main fuel are sp-return effects (mostly the torc). For epic, you'll want static sp-restoration clickies because you can't sustainably get back more sp than you use healing yourself from epic mob damage.

[karl_k0ch]

Flo is about to be GR'd (once I get that cleanser in 5ish shroud runs), but he's going to be a bit naked after that. Atm, he is wearing an Epic Cavalry Plate, which provides some nice collection of bonuses (+5 Resist, SFL, DR). Obviously, I'm not going to wear that anymore with monk levels.

So which kind of armor should I take instead?
Rainments don't seem to be that great, considering the fact that this build is not built for AC.
For DT, I can't decide if Healing Amp/Healing Amp/Earth Guard is really better than one with Resistance and/or any other guard.
Duelist Leathers would defy the monk's Wis bonus and the use of stances, so they are out of question, too.
Red Robe is a long way to go.

Some input is much appreciated. :)

[Khellendros13]

Flo is about to be GR'd (once I get that cleanser in 5ish shroud runs), but he's going to be a bit naked after that. Atm, he is wearing an Epic Cavalry Plate, which provides some nice collection of bonuses (+5 Resist, SFL, DR). Obviously, I'm not going to wear that anymore with monk levels.

So which kind of armor should I take instead?
Rainments don't seem to be that great, considering the fact that this build is not built for AC.
For DT, I can't decide if Healing Amp/Healing Amp/Earth Guard is really better than one with Resistance and/or any other guard.
Duelist Leathers would defy the monk's Wis bonus and the use of stances, so they are out of question, too.
Red Robe is a long way to go.

Some input is much appreciated. :)

If you are running epic quests, Destruction on the 3rd Tier is awesome. My current DT is Hvy Fort/20% heal amp/Destruction.

Also as slots became tight, I now use goggles for SP item and HP item. I put 150sp on Epic Helm of Frost so I only need to buff 150sp~ then swap in Triple Earth HP item.

[Junts]

Flo is about to be GR'd (once I get that cleanser in 5ish shroud runs), but he's going to be a bit naked after that. Atm, he is wearing an Epic Cavalry Plate, which provides some nice collection of bonuses (+5 Resist, SFL, DR). Obviously, I'm not going to wear that anymore with monk levels.

So which kind of armor should I take instead?
Rainments don't seem to be that great, considering the fact that this build is not built for AC.
For DT, I can't decide if Healing Amp/Healing Amp/Earth Guard is really better than one with Resistance and/or any other guard.
Duelist Leathers would defy the monk's Wis bonus and the use of stances, so they are out of question, too.
Red Robe is a long way to go.

Some input is much appreciated. :)

I wear red dragonhide, but uintil then you want a dragontouched of some kind. Thing you need/guard/destruction, or thing you need/amp/dest, or thing you need/guard/guard, depending whether you're using 2 tod rings to get your amp and whether you need destruction etc.

[karl_k0ch]

How much mileage will I acutally get out of a +2 Int tome read at level 7?
It will generate essentially 6 extra ranks (10*0.5 on pally levels, 1 on the second monk level) in Balance, with a standing Balance score of 15ish, or 21ish respectively. Is it worth it?

Edit. Oh, and on a related note: I pulled a torc last night. Gonna GR soon. :)

[dfgdsdfv]

For 95% of the game (everything beside titans) a modified balance of 10 is enough to always get back up. Considering you'll be wearing robe, and have some dex bonus (minium for twf) you shouldn't worry about you balance check. Using a int tome at level 7 can't be a bad choice, but i'm not sure how much advantage you are going to gain from it. Unless you need the points to max umd or concentration, or you want to invest in intimidate

[karl_k0ch]

Just after I GR'd, I noticed an interesting issue. A level 18 paladin will only have 2 slots for level 4 spells, but this particular build is interested in CMW, Holy Sword, and Zeal.

What do you do? Slot in HS, conjure Swords, switch back to Zeal, or don't you use Zeal at all?

Also, it should be noted that, if you plan to use sun stance (for the healing amp with CSW), you are going to need a standing Wis of 16 This is easily achievable, but should be kept in mind.

[Balkas]

What do you do? Slot in HS, conjure Swords, switch back to Zeal

This.

Just hop into any ol' quest when you log in and make what you need, then switch back.

[Bardicus]

How are you hitting in epics without epic gear? Walked into Epic WizKing today with:

2x Lit II Khopesh
2x Triple Pos Warhammer
Warchanter (16 levels)
Divine Favor
Spectral Gloves
Wearing Destruction armor

And saw a steady stream of misses even without PA on. Am I overlooking something obvious that makes the to-hit issue go away?

[Flintsen]

How does this toon play from 1-19, without all the Epic gear. What I mean is can it play main tank, main healer (ok that's a stretch), currently TRing into this. Have you tried or played a Pally 20 if so how does it compare to this. Thanks in advance.

[killerzee25]

Hey I'm currently working out how i would tackle this build on a current tr of mine. What would be the loss of swapping monk for rogue? I took a look through and diddn't really find anything monk specific would i be able take the rogue for the full 23 points of umd and achieve reliable heal scrolls.

I also was wondering about swapping half elf for human, losing the oversized twf for the monk dilettante and more heal amp.

Thanks
~Sky

[grodon9999]

Hey I'm currently working out how i would tackle this build on a current tr of mine. What would be the loss of swapping monk for rogue? I took a look through and diddn't really find anything monk specific would i be able take the rogue for the full 23 points of umd and achieve reliable heal scrolls.

I also was wondering about swapping half elf for human, losing the oversized twf for the monk dilettante and more heal amp.

Thanks
~Sky

Feat, he went monk for two feats.

[killerzee25]

Feat, he went monk for two feats.

Doh of course i guess it would be pretty hard to take 2 feats away from the build for heal scrolls. What about helf fvs dilliente with the removed otwf/sf: UMD, no extra hamp but keeps the heal scrolls

[grodon9999]

Doh of course i guess it would be pretty hard to take 2 feats away from the build for heal scrolls. What about helf fvs dilliente with the removed otwf/sf: UMD, no extra hamp but keeps the heal scrolls

if going helf I'd go rogue dilly for sneak attack.

[unbongwah]

if going helf I'd go rogue dilly for sneak attack.
It's a tank; how often will it not have aggro (and thus get SAs)? Besides, it sounds like killerzee25 really wants no-fail Heal scrolls and FvS dilly would certainly provide that, at least until UMD was high enough to render it unnecessary.

[Anthios888]

It's a tank; how often will it not have aggro (and thus get SAs)? Besides, it sounds like killerzee25 really wants no-fail Heal scrolls and FvS dilly would certainly provide that, at least until UMD was high enough to render it unnecessary.

A lot. Rogue 3d6 is awesome.

[karl_k0ch]

So, DoS gets a bump in u11.

Since this build has an extra feat to play with, namely the human bonus feat, which is used in the OP for OTWF or SF:UMD, how viable would it be to take DoS instead of KotC?

For the feat required, I'm undecided between the Tower Shield Prof and Shield Mastery. The latter would actually some measurable benefit, if used together with a Madstone Shield. The former would require more sophisticated gear arrangements to make it working if needed. (I'm thinking about Levik's here, but it doesn't seem to justify the investment.)

The main pull would be, of course, the defensive stance which could act as some kind of Madstone clickie which allows you still to cast. The extra turns and LoHs would be icing on the cake.

Any thoughts?

[grodon9999]

So, DoS gets a bump in u11.

Since this build has an extra feat to play with, namely the human bonus feat, which is used in the OP for OTWF or SF:UMD, how viable would it be to take DoS instead of KotC?

For the feat required, I'm undecided between the Tower Shield Prof and Shield Mastery. The latter would actually some measurable benefit, if used together with a Madstone Shield. The former would require more sophisticated gear arrangements to make it working if needed. (I'm thinking about Levik's here, but it doesn't seem to justify the investment.)

The main pull would be, of course, the defensive stance which could act as some kind of Madstone clickie which allows you still to cast. The extra turns and LoHs would be icing on the cake.

Any thoughts?

If you're gonna go DoS on a Pally18/Monk 2 are you really gonna use a shield?

[karl_k0ch]

If you're gonna go DoS on a Pally18/Monk 2 are you really gonna use a shield?

Only situational. The AC on that build is, at least in the current state of my character, negligible, so the only thing which would be lost is the centeredness for the sake of stances. This way, I'd trade Jidz's Healing amp and +2 Str for 20% incoming damage reduction, a bunch of HP and +6 Str, if I am not mistaken.

Does the DoS ability require to acutally wield a shield?
I am working under the hypothesis that it also can be used when dual-wielding Khopeshes. If not: My idea is bad. :)

[grodon9999]

Only situational. The AC on that build is, at least in the current state of my character, negligible, so the only thing which would be lost is the centeredness for the sake of stances.

Does the DoS ability require to acutally wield a shield?


No, a shield is NOT needed but you now get a whole bunch more threat if you have a shield equipped.

If you have no AC and don't have the Shield mastery feat the Shield really serves no purpose though.

[Doop]

How do you get two-weapon fighting at lvl 1 with a starting dex of 14? Isn't the prereq 15 dex?

[maddmatt70]

It is a fair question what paladin dps players are doing this mod. The group I run with has a general shortage of Shield Bearing tanks and since my pally's dps anyway is not that great this mod I took the final plunge to 18 pally 2 fighter Human Defender. I have a huge healing amp human not unlike this build and as a defender my hit points is eventually going to 890ish (currently 840ish) with a slight gear change with intimidate score of mid 70s. I of course dropped some of my offensive enhancement for more healing amp, more hp, picked up shield mastery and some intimidate feats and the defender prerequistes. Are people with this build doing similiar things? I was thinking if I didn't respec my pally to a tank build that I would have shelved him this mod.

[karl_k0ch]

Are people with this build doing similiar things? I was thinking if I didn't respec my pally to a tank build that I would have shelved him this mod.


So, DoS gets a bump in u11.

Since this build has an extra feat to play with, namely the human bonus feat, which is used in the OP for OTWF or SF:UMD, how viable would it be to take DoS instead of KotC?

For the feat required, I'm undecided between the Tower Shield Prof and Shield Mastery. The latter would actually some measurable benefit, if used together with a Madstone Shield. The former would require more sophisticated gear arrangements to make it working if needed. (I'm thinking about Levik's here, but it doesn't seem to justify the investment.)

The main pull would be, of course, the defensive stance which could act as some kind of Madstone clickie which allows you still to cast. The extra turns and LoHs would be icing on the cake.

Any thoughts?

Considering, yes. Deciding, no.

[maddmatt70]

Considering, yes. Deciding, no.

Shield mastery>tower shield prof fyi by a wide margin. Eventually you will change your pally its inevitable of course when another mod comes things of course could be different which I am factoring in for changing my pally back to dps again. It just makes alot more sense for my pally vs. my fighter right now, but I might eventually make my fighter and fvs (dot) tanks too..

[Arborinex]

So i just typed up a long post that disapeared into nothingness when i submitted.

CBF doing it again so hears the short version.

I just got directed to this build page by a guy i partied with and its almost exactly my build. Pretty sure i must have been here and got inspiration at some point :)

Mine is the poor mans build, using hand wraps and maxing out healing amp with Maximise and Quicken, and replacing the khopesh feat with one to qualify me for DOS.

I love the build, its easy and fun to lvl with very minimal gear. At lvl 20 in its second life I decided the healing amp was overkill as i was self healing epics. I swapped out some of the enhancements and took the smiting line with scimitars and its great.

[karl_k0ch]

So i just typed up a long post that disapeared into nothingness when i submitted.

CBF doing it again so hears the short version.

I just got directed to this build page by a guy i partied with and its almost exactly my build. Pretty sure i must have been here and got inspiration at some point :)

Mine is the poor mans build, using hand wraps and maxing out healing amp with Maximise and Quicken, and replacing the khopesh feat with one to qualify me for DOS.

I love the build, its easy and fun to lvl with very minimal gear. At lvl 20 in its second life I decided the healing amp was overkill as i was self healing epics. I swapped out some of the enhancements and took the smiting line with scimitars and its great.

Would you mind telling me your current stats, ie. Str and HP, or maybe even link the myddo of that character? As you can see above, I am still undecided what to do with Flodur (http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/flodur/).

I like the general play feeling, but I wouldn't mind some more DPS, and less tight APs. :D

[Arborinex]

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/tiarva/

i cant get it to update to the wraps of endless light for the life of me. But at least is showing stats how i like to run it when i want to be self sufficiant.
Str stat shown is in both DOS stance and lesser sun stance. So thats 8 str just from those 2. With jitz bracers and sun stance i get extra healing amp so thats how i run when im on my own or want self suficiency.
Im specced for slashing weapons so when in a party i run with scimitars so i have the highest chance of getting a crit when i hit a smite. Great for jumping over the mob and taking out the caster/healer.
I havnt crunched any numbers as to weather im better off sticking to scimitars or switching back to hand wraps when I run out of smites.

I tried out Knight of the Chalice and didnt like it. I spend such little time in amrath its not worth it. I find the extra strength and HP from DOS is fantastic for epics and well.. everything else. Not just evil outsiders.

I pretty muched maxxed out healing amp while lvling and respecced for smiting once I capped. If i TR again it will go 1 of 2 ways.
If i have a torc, i will do it exactly the same, i dont even know where id put the extra points.
If i dont have a torc, I will drop charisma down alot and take a ton of wisdom for extra spell points and AC while lvling and I will take stunning fist instead of stunning blow and use just hand wraps again. This will lose me demine might but i think having a high stun DC will more than make up for it.

EDIT..And yes the AP's are really tight, took a bit of plying around to make DOS and Smiting line work.
I wanted to explain why Id drop charisma.... While lvling i didnt use smites at all, its barely worth it whit the low crit chance of wraps. And self healing was so good i almost never used my LOH for anything other than resurecting party members. I figure i might as well have more wisdom and have more sp. Then save the LOH clickies for raising the healer and barbarian, so i dont have to carry their stones so much.

And can someone please tell me why this forum loggs me out if i take more than a minute to type something....yes I am a huge forum noob :P

[Quetzacoala]

Until recently, I have never played a paladin in any shape or form; however, I lately have become entranced with the idea of playing one. What I wanted from one was the ability to deal respectable damage but possess incredible survivability, and this build has lived up to this and more. I true reincarnated my favored soul into a half elf version of this build that would use scimitars, simply because I enjoy dual wielding scimitars and I already had a pair of Greensteel scimitars on my favored soul. Reading the advice of others, I have decided to go with HotD instead of KotC for additional survivability.

Now to my question... how would the enhancements for this build change for a HotD half elf?

[Purkilius]

Until recently, I have never played a paladin in any shape or form; however, I lately have become entranced with the idea of playing one. What I wanted from one was the ability to deal respectable damage but possess incredible survivability, and this build has lived up to this and more. I true reincarnated my favored soul into a half elf version of this build that would use scimitars, simply because I enjoy dual wielding scimitars and I already had a pair of Greensteel scimitars on my favored soul. Reading the advice of others, I have decided to go with HotD instead of KotC for additional survivability.

Now to my question... how would the enhancements for this build change for a HotD half elf?

What I did and I think Junts did also is reset your enhancements every other levels or so. Paladins AP are very tight and you get the feel for what suits your play-style by doing that. Essentials are Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smiting, Divine Might and a pre-req for HotD. I would fit in some devotion and more healing amp also!

[Quetzacoala]

What I did and I think Junts did also is reset your enhancements every other levels or so. Paladins AP are very tight and you get the feel for what suits your play-style by doing that. Essentials are Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smiting, Divine Might and a pre-req for HotD. I would fit in some devotion and more healing amp also!

Yeah, this is basically what I am doing. However, what I cannot decide on is whether to improve my aura or to take the Extra Smiting line...

[Purkilius]

Exalted Smiting for the win :)

With Zeal and some double-strike gear, you will be seeing some nice numbers when you crit a smite and the double-strike procs!

Edit: remember to take Maximize and Quicken, I skipped Quicken on my pally but was often missing it in harder content.

[Quetzacoala]

Exalted Smiting for the win :)

With Zeal and some double-strike gear, you will be seeing some nice numbers when you crit a smite and the double-strike procs!

Edit: remember to take Maximize and Quicken, I skipped Quicken on my pally but was often missing it in harder content.

I am not sure whether I want to take Quicken on my character or not...

He does not have a Torc or a Con-Opp item yet, so it might be a bit overkill seeing as I would not be able to regenerate spell points. Well... technically he does have a Con-Opp item in progress, some goggles that are on Tier II but I do not think I will be finishing them anytime soon.

[Quetzacoala]

Armor class has become vastly more important with Update 14; because of this, would you recommend wearing heavy armor in place of light armor when playing this character, or do you feel that evasion is too important to sacrifice?

[Purkilius]

As this is a pure dps build I would recommend wearing light armor for the evasion as you can get really good reflex save with Paladin divine grace.

But for leveling you can get decent armor class and some cc with the frozen tunic from the challenges and the bracers of wind are good also as you get dodge and constant blur!

But for the right situations for example a Cavalry Plate and a decent shield would not hurt to have in your inventory.

I tr´ed my pally to a 12fighter 6paladin 2monk helf for a fighter life and on lvl 16 now and took a tour in Vale last night to check out the changes and though he is only wearing a DT robe, he was getting a lot of misses and the dmg he got was very minimal. I want to change those 2 monk lvls to rouge now though it would be nice to have hamstring when the guild needs a tank in normal ToD or something!

[ThugaNug]

Hello, I am about to TR and like your Aryenne build... I am just curious being that i will be 34pt. how should I alter my Stats? Also, you show 14 in Dex... How will I be able to take TWF at lvl 1 without 15 Dex? I know the tome will kick in at lvl 3 so should i just take Khopesh at lvl 1 and wait until 3 for TWF? My first ever TR... So if I seem ignorrant in this I apologize lol. Thank you for any help :)

[Anthios888]

Hello, I am about to TR and like your Aryenne build... I am just curious being that i will be 34pt. how should I alter my Stats? Also, you show 14 in Dex... How will I be able to take TWF at lvl 1 without 15 Dex? I know the tome will kick in at lvl 3 so should i just take Khopesh at lvl 1 and wait until 3 for TWF? My first ever TR... So if I seem ignorrant in this I apologize lol. Thank you for any help :)

Don't worry about not having any particular tome or 36 point builds, because this build can work just fine without it.

Drop your strength down to 17 or 16 and you should have plenty of points. Just make sure you have 17 DEX total after whatever tome you have, whether it's +1 or +3. You may have to take improved two weapon fighting (17 dex) later on if you are relying on a tome to get it. At low levels, you can level up with a two-handed weapon and switch to khopeshes at higher levels when your attack bonus is higher and your feats support it more.

[ThugaNug]

So what do you think about these stats? 16 str (+4) tome, 15 Dex (+2) tome, 14 Con (+4) tome, 8 int (+2) tome, 8 wis (+2) tome, 16 Cha (+2) tome... Dex will be good to take ITWF at lvl 9, Wis will be good enough to cast highest lvl Paladin spells, Im just wondering about Con and CHA now... should i go 16 con with a +2 tome and 14 cha with a +4 or roll with my original thought?

[ThugaNug]

let me edit that lol... i had been seeing others posts about +4 tomes... figured i could buy em in the ddo store... well I found out that I cant lol
So with what I have now this is what Im looking at:
Str 16 with +3 tome +5 through lvls
Dex 15 w/ +2 tome
Con 14 w/ +2 tome
Int 8 w/ +2 tome
Wis8 w/ +2 tome
Cha16 w/+2 tome

Can anyone point out any flaws or have any recommendations before I make this TR final?

[Anthios888]

let me edit that lol... i had been seeing others posts about +4 tomes... figured i could buy em in the ddo store... well I found out that I cant lol
So with what I have now this is what Im looking at:
Str 16 with +3 tome +5 through lvls
Dex 15 w/ +2 tome
Con 14 w/ +2 tome
Int 8 w/ +2 tome
Wis8 w/ +2 tome
Cha16 w/+2 tome

Can anyone point out any flaws or have any recommendations before I make this TR final?

imo looks good. Individual stat points are not nearly as game-breaking as they used to be, because we have so much more gear, epic destinies, past lives, and more to pump them up. You've got a balanced character that meets the requirements for two weapon fighting, spell casting, and divine might III.