Stealth in DDO

[Tatsuno]

I'm only level 5 So there's allot I have not seen, but how is stealth useful in a Team based static instance game? I mean why have one or two guys sneak in and slowly pick off mobs one at a time when it's allot more effective to send in the entire team swards a'flailing, or what's the use of a scout when the dungeons are static? just ask the guy who's done it before. Also in my experience, the only way to get a team to stand still long enough for a stealthy character to do any scouting is if not doing so will lead to almost certain doom, and since stealth mode makes you move slower, it also makes it harder to keep up with a party that won't stop for you. Also I heard someone say that bluff takes too long to use effectively in combat.

So my question is, Am I gimping myself by putting points in hide and move silently? and if not, where can I use these skills?

[tihocan]

Stealth is very rarely used in group play (at least with random pugging), because (1) usually there's no need for it, and (2) even if it could help, often it requires the whole party to understand the stealth mechanics and be able to use them properly, and good luck on that...

So stealth is mostly used soloing.

If you have the skill points for it, don't hesitate to put points in hide/move silently, since they can still be fun and useful sometimes :)

[Angelus_dead]

I'm only level 5 So there's allot I have not seen, but how is stealth useful in a Team based static instance game?
There are a lot of methods that can be used to allow stealth to have a balanced effective role within a group, but DDO does not really use them.

You are correct in your assessment that when a member of a party, stealth techniques are usually either a waste of time or actively harmful. For example, take the idea of "scouting": what may actually happen is that the lead scout sneaks ahead, crosses some invisible line, a gate slams down behind him, and monsters jump out all around. The rest of the party can then listen to him die.

However, do points in Hide and MS "gimp" you? No, they'd only do that if you had been tricked into taking points away from some important skill.

[Mercules]

The times when these actually come in handy are for very short rare moments when new quests come out. Then there is a reason for a Rogue to be "scouting" ahead if he has enough Spot to notice the traps before they blow up the party.

The other main use of stealth that happens on an occasional basis is the near party wipe where on character escapes and kills off pursuit and then comes back into an area still full of mobs to gather stones and take them to a shrine. This tends to go away as well as people gain means of Rezzing other party members.

[Borror0]

There are a lot of methods that can be used to allow stealth to have a balanced effective role within a group, but DDO does not really use them.
Do you have example of how that could be done? I'm particularly curious about that.

[Mercules]

Do you have example of how that could be done? I'm particularly curious about that.

Ask Parvo and the PD crew, they know how to leverage Stealth. The issue is with our unlimited resources from farming, the twinking, and the lack of real consequence for dying zerging is just easier and faster.

[KingOfCheese]

A few places I find stealth useful in a group setting:

1) when the group splits up to clear a zone more quickly or to hit side optionals (depending on the enemies, I may stealth past some or stealth in to position to assassinate others (rogue) or to isolate the fights (non-rogue)). A classic situation is stealthing around to disable all traps for xp bonus while the rest of the group takes care of other tasks.

2) while waiting for a group to form/assemble/get back from afk; I may stealth ahead and take out nasty bad guys (beholders, mind flayers, etc.).

3) certain tasks, if stealthed well, are quicker than a fight (pulling certain levels, etc.).

4) if I join a group late, and need to run through respawns to catch up, I may stealth past some of them.

5) in a near party wipe situation, stealth can be used to collect soul stones without risking self-death

[-Tetsuo-]

I use my stealth all the time. Then again, I only play with my friends and we are all completely new to the game. Playing with someone who knows whats around the corner already is absolutely out of the question for us. So usually they hang back when i tell em to stop so I can spot priority targets and look for traps or whatever. Then I call in the boys :)

[Arianrhod]

Stealth is great - it slows you down so the monsters wipe out the rest of the party before you get there, then they don't see you sneaking around to pick up everyone's soulstones and carry them off to dump at the rez shrine ;)

[Borror0]

Ask Parvo and the PD crew, they know how to leverage Stealth.
I don't see how that is relevant to my question.

PS: Even in permadeath, using Stealth is a mistake and is impossible if your party members don't have enough Hide/MS. It's far more effective to just play the dungeon normally.

The issue is with our unlimited resources from farming, the twinking, and the lack of real consequence for dying zerging is just easier and faster.
That is only one half of the problem. Even if it was useful to sneak as it allowed you to bypass certain fights, you still run into the problem that many of your party members won't have enough Hide or MS to follow you most of the time so you'd run into the issue of "sneak is not worth it" in most groups.

[Mercules]

I don't see how that is relevant to my question.

PS: Even in permadeath, using Stealth is a mistake and is impossible if your party members don't have enough Hide/MS. It's far more effective to just play the dungeon normally.

That is only one half of the problem. Even if it was useful to sneak as it allowed you to bypass certain fights, you still run into the problem that many of your party members won't have enough Hide or MS to follow you most of the time so you'd run into the issue of "sneak is not worth it" in most groups.

You are thinking from the, "Everyone must sneak past this group of mobs." mindset, which is not true at all.

Stealth can allow team members to get into a good position to fight from and control the combat. Often only those with enough Stealth will also need to do so(Rogue with Assassin build, Arcane Archer lining up a Many Shot).

For a very good example of how stealth can help think about WWs Rescuing Arlos there is the totally optional room straight ahead on the side with the shrines. This room is an occasional party wipe. The stealthy member sneaks a bit into the room and then the rest of the party comes forward. When the mobs agro on the group the stealther sneaks to the lever in the back and pulls it giving the group a way out of the closed in room should they need to pull back and regroup.

When we are twinked and don't care if we are dropped because someone will grab our stones and rez us at the nearby shrine we don't need to bother with *gasp* tactics for these areas. Instead "Hitting Rage and... RWAAAGH!!!" Whackity-whack-whack-clank! "HEAJLS!!!!!1!!!" works just fine and is faster. :) We all know time is the main currency for most MMO players, so no one stealths.

[Turial]

Do you have example of how that could be done? I'm particularly curious about that.

You could have areas where sneaking past the mobs to pull a switch, which locks if the mobs are aggroed, would reduce the difficulty of the fight.

Imagine being able to fall into the pit in new invasion and pulling a switch to prevent the curse blasts from the floor. It would give an alternative method to completing what can been a very difficult quest for relatively unexperienced players (in that quest).

[Borror0]

When we are twinked and don't care if we are dropped because someone will grab our stones and rez us at the nearby shrine we don't need to bother with *gasp* tactics for these areas. Instead "Hitting Rage and... RWAAAGH!!!" Whackity-whack-whack-clank! "HEAJLS!!!!!1!!!" works just fine and is faster. :) We all know time is the main currency for most MMO players, so no one stealths.
You're equating "not using stealth" to "playing mindlessly" which is blatantly false.

From my experience with an untwinked static group of skilled gamers, low manning any quest in the game is incredibly easy for as long as you know what you're doing (and that was pre-scaling) and stealth only slows you down, and often increases the chances of dying by quite a lot.

Anyways. To go back to what I first said, having players waiting while another is having fun is not very good gameplay. That's the motive behind my question to Angelus_dead: I can see ways to make it happen but not ways to make it fun for all members of the group. Sure, I can think of many ways to make the stealthed character have fun but I cannot find ways to allow stealth that will not harm the experience of the other party members.

[Sephiroth177]

I play as a fighter and my brother a rouge and the only way he survives is in stealth , we take the damage a he kills the all cuz when hes in stealth he fast and get's ex damage from back attacks,just play the stealth game rite.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

People lack imagination.

Scouting is useless.
In static dungeons with verteran players who have run the same quests over and over again, there is absolutely no reason to scout ahead.

But not all dungeons are run over and over again.
And a few dungeons have patroling monsters, and respawns. Or players get seperated and assume someone cleared a certain area already....etc.

And like everyone says, sneaking is slow (except for Rogues with faster sneaking IV and 30% Striders on)
And no one waits or supports sneaky tactics....etc.

But that does not mean stealth is useless.

I use stealth all the time.

It helps to actually be a zerger when using stealth, as you can get ahead of the group, drop to stealth mode, and pull off a few tricks before the group ruins it for you.

But in all honesty, my tricks do not actually require high stealth skills to pull off.

Invisibility alone works great. And just being in sneak mode reduces the distance that monsters can see you.
Add Enlarge spell feat...and really you don't need high stealth to use stealthy tricks.

I like to zerge ahead, sneak close enough to charm one guy in a mob.
His friends turn on him, and when the party arrives the party does not get immediate agro, and gets a couple free rounds of attacks, generally unopposed.

I like to zerge ahead, sneak into a mob and fascinate them before the party catches up to me.

Open doors to shrines before or during a big fight.
Get traps while avoiding the fight that would set them off on us.

Drop to sneak mode just before a fight, just long enough for the monsters to agro on someone else, then pop up and get in sneak attacks.

Really it is only limited by your imagination.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=187340

[Grushvak]

I play as a fighter and my brother a rouge and the only way he survives is in stealth , we take the damage a he kills the all cuz when hes in stealth he fast and get's ex damage from back attacks,just play the stealth game rite.

This post is misleading. You do not need to be in stealth mode to sneak attack. You can sneak attack just as well whenever you are flanking a monster, or even when the monster is simply running after or making ranged attacks at another party member. Basically, any situation in which you don't have aggro.

I have found, however, that being in stealth mode as I start to attack an enemy, I am far more likely to land 4 or even 6 sneak attacks before they notice my presence. Maybe this is only due to lag, or maybe it's a fluke: I don't know the exact mechanics at work here.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I agree with borror0 about mystery of the PD crowd using stealth - whenever I see a PD video they're always stealthing around.

now I can understand if you roleplay then maybe you might want to stealth - but PD is not RP. All Stealth does is it means you move slower and when you have to attack your rate of swing is well down.

By all means send the rogue ahead to scout out, there are even in fact some quests specifically designed like this - even at end game (Bastion of Power), but there's no reason to just stealth for the sake of it.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

For a very good example of how stealth can help think about WWs Rescuing Arlos there is the totally optional room straight ahead on the side with the shrines. This room is an occasional party wipe. The stealthy member sneaks a bit into the room and then the rest of the party comes forward. When the mobs agro on the group the stealther sneaks to the lever in the back and pulls it giving the group a way out of the closed in room should they need to pull back and regroup.
Ineffective example.

With no stealth, we can just go in normally and whichever player was last can go over and get the lever, since nothing aggroed him.
With no stealth, we can just stand outside the gate and shoot an arrow in, which has the useful additional effect of separating out the melee kobolds into a first wave and leaving the casters/throwers for later.

[Hafeal]

My rogue stealths to assassinate. :D

[Angelus_dead]

I agree with borror0 about mystery of the PD crowd using stealth - whenever I see a PD video they're always stealthing around.
Is it "sneak pulling"? That involves using the stealth features of the game, but isn't exactly "stealth" because the objective is for the monsters to hear you (and too high of a Move Silently rank can actually make you less effective).

You know, sneak up towards some mobs until only the nearest one hears you, then lead him back following your footsteps until he's alone and outnumbered by the group. That was a handy technique for affordably beating the original release of Relic of a Sovereign Past (if you didn't use FW perching, which involved scrolls at the time). However, you could instead assign one player to kite the other mobs, and be only slightly less effective.

I recently used sneak pulling to individually kill the group around Erown the Recoverer in the white dragon valley. But I also just ran in and jumped around getting as many as possible with Improved Precise Shot, which is faster and hardly more dangerous.

PS. You can also shoot arrows at the wall for a similar effect to sneak pulling.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyways. To go back to what I first said, having players waiting while another is having fun is not very good gameplay. That's the motive behind my question to Angelus_dead: I can see ways to make it happen but not ways to make it fun for all members of the group.
Ok, sure I'll list some. But your expectations now are higher than what I had mentioned earlier: I said there are many methods a game designer could use, but I didn't promise they'd all work for every game. I also said that they could achieve "balance" and "effectiveness", but didn't go into whether they also kept the rest of the group entertained at the same time. That's a more ambitious goal.

It's a broad and open question, so I'll just mention a few of the things that can be done:

1. SINO. Stealth in name only. Real stealth means that the monsters are unaware that you're even there, but that can be hard to balance. Instead the game can include character features named and animated like stealth, but with a gameplay function providing things like avoidance, combat advantage, or deaggro features. For examples, go to a WOW site and search for "fix vanish" (although WOW also includes some features for real stealth).

2. Good job, here's a cookie. Provide a special attack or combat advantage that can only be used if you first approached the monster in stealth. For example, Spies could have the "Yoink" icon which steals the gun from an enemy's holster, but it can't be used once he's already fighting and has it in his hand. Note that DDO's Assassin 2 attack doesn't count, because you can still use it against a monster who's actively fighting your teammates.

3.Follow the leader. Stealthy characters can learn to help their teammates sneak along with them. Maybe a sneaking Spy provides a buff to bring nearby allies to close to his level of stealth, so long as they keep within range. LOTRO added a Burglar feature along those ideas, but I didn't hear about it becoming popular or effective.

So if it were up to me, how would I improve stealth in DDO?
1. Add a Spot warning about special map features which are really bad to go past without your allies.

2. Some more emphasis on randomized positioning of dungeon features. (Note: There's a difference between "random" and "randomized") (Note 2: Ironically, Necropolis 1 focused on this, but was unpopular for other reasons)

3. Treat sneak attacks differently for "flank attacks" and "stealth attacks". In D&D they have the same effect (except against Uncanny Dodge), but to bring them into DDO like that is inaccurate. Stealth attacks are frontloaded, but flank attacks can keep happening throughout the length of the combat. Therefore, inflating enemy hp makes stealth attacks less important compared to other forms of damage.

So, what I might do is add +100% sneak attack damage if the monster is not merely flanked or immobilized, but actually unaware of the attack. And although it's more complicated, I'd follow it up with a debuff: after an unaware enemy is stealth attacked, it and any other unaware monsters nearby get a "Surprised!" debuff for ~5 seconds, which entitles any attacker to 50% of his sneak attack bonuses (not stacking with regular sneak attack if it applies)

[Borror0]

1. SINO. Stealth in name only. Real stealth means that the monsters are unaware that you're even there, but that can be hard to balance. Instead the game can include character features named and animated like stealth, but with a gameplay function providing things like avoidance, combat advantage, or deaggro features. For examples, go to a WOW site and search for "fix vanish" (although WOW also includes some features for real stealth).
Burglar in LOTRO have such a feature, too, if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the answer, by the way.

[Grushvak]

For examples, go to a WOW site and search for "fix vanish" (although WOW also includes some features for real stealth).

Oh wow. They're still going on about this? I swear, people whined so much about this it drove me crazy. I suffered from Vanish's problems as well being a rogue, but after a while I sided with Blizzard: the rogue community with its entitled crybaby attitude didn't deserve a goddamn fix.