Clerics + Warforged relations

[marshm1972]

Start of Rant: I am fed up.

I play a WF THF Fighter currently and I am sick of certain (not all, or even most) Clerics telling me that they wont heal me because I burn up to much of *their* Mana. I might use the same arguement: That I use up too much of my hit points/wear out my weapons in order to protect the healers. I can get a mob of most other characters even without intimadate. Either by getting them to switch targets to me or by killing them outright. If I am taking the risk then why shouldnt I reap the benefit? Even WITH my handicap...

1. First of all DDO is a team based game not a solo game. If the healers start deciding who they will heal that doesnt make it a "group" game anymore. If someone does want to heal WF, then perhaps they shouldn't be a healer period.

2. And more the point, if a cleric refuses to heal me then under what obligation am I under to keep protecting him? If its "every man for himself" then I must say I certainly dont feel obliged to put myself at risk, use my own resources like pots and stuff in order to protect someone who will not recipocate. Many's the times Ive wanted to "OK you wont me heal me? Fine, I wont protect you, if the mobs attack you -you're are on your own!". Seems fair no?

The WF heal penalty hurts -but WF have immunities that make up for it. So while other races are held, or weakened by poison or disease, or lvl drained. We can keep fighting at peak efficiency. Most players like having a WF Fighters, Barbs, or even Pallys around when facing Beholders.

3. And yes, I carry a good supply of repair pots/wands, I am working on getting Healing Amp items, and at least level II Healers Friend, although I have not yet decided on lvl III because its a large AP investment (with an at best 5% return) and at worst 0% return if Clerics refuse to help. So I can takecare of myself, I just think its unfair when I am expected to takecare of the healers but not the other way around.

End of Rant.

[RazorrX]

WF can cost Clerics a hella lot of mana. ESP if you guys take the Adamantine body. Sure it gives you heavy fort, but it also makes healing cost out the wazzoo.

Mages (wiz and sorc) are the class that gets Repair spells. Mages can use Repair Wands. The race was created by mages and is intended to be healed by them. Buy them repair wands and ask them to heal you after fights, may get you healed some and save the Cleric spell points.

Most Clerics I know will still try to keep you alive. IF you are taking way more damage than the other players I can see an issue (but that works if you are flesh or wood). It is good you have healers friend, if you really want Clerics to heal you - let them know you have it.

But basically game mechanics state that Clerics heal fleshies, Mages heal Droids.

So you should rant that the mage is not healing you, because it is a class feature for him. I doubt it will get you anywhere, but feel free to spew at them. Heck, they made you in the first place.

[Lithic]

WF can cost Clerics a hella lot of mana. ESP if you guys take the Adamantine body. Sure it gives you heavy fort, but it also makes healing cost out the wazzoo.



Adamantine body has nothing to do with the healing penalty of WF. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The only thing a warforged can do is get the healing enhancemnets (at low level) and healing amplification items (high level). And for the flame's sake dont take the heavy fort/immune to healing feat (which i think is what razorr was thinking of).

As for the OP, before a cleric gets the HEAL spell, they have a very good point. If you and a non-wf melee are both about equal in effectiveness, they are going to prefer to heal the non-wf. Accept that. Either compensate by giving the cleric or casters wands to keep you up, or by carrying lots of potions (which is admitedly not easy for a new player).

Now if a cleric refuses to heal you after they get HEAL, then either they think you are a sponge because you suck, or they are morons. Either way, try not to cross paths with them and everyone is happy.

[Bosco]

Start of Rant: I am fed up.

I play a WF THF Fighter currently and I am sick of certain (not all, or even most) Clerics telling me that they wont heal me because I burn up to much of *their* Mana. I might use the same arguement: That I use up too much of my hit points/wear out my weapons in order to protect the healers. I can get a mob of most other characters even without intimadate. Either by getting them to switch targets to me or by killing them outright. If I am taking the risk then why shouldnt I reap the benefit? Even WITH my handicap...

1. First of all DDO is a team based game not a solo game. If the healers start deciding who they will heal that doesnt make it a "group" game anymore. If someone does want to heal WF, then perhaps they shouldn't be a healer period.

2. And more the point, if a cleric refuses to heal me then under what obligation am I under to keep protecting him? If its "every man for himself" then I must say I certainly dont feel obliged to put myself at risk, use my own resources like pots and stuff in order to protect someone who will not recipocate. Many's the times Ive wanted to "OK you wont me heal me? Fine, I wont protect you, if the mobs attack you -you're are on your own!". Seems fair no?

The WF heal penalty hurts -but WF have immunities that make up for it. So while other races are held, or weakened by poison or disease, or lvl drained. We can keep fighting at peak efficiency. Most players like having a WF Fighters, Barbs, or even Pallys around when facing Beholders.

3. And yes, I carry a good supply of repair pots/wands, I am working on getting Healing Amp items, and at least level II Healers Friend, although I have not yet decided on lvl III because its a large AP investment (with an at best 5% return) and at worst 0% return if Clerics refuse to help. So I can takecare of myself, I just think its unfair when I am expected to takecare of the healers but not the other way around.

End of Rant.

This is the reason I never took a WF past level 8 in a game til now. There is an even more diabolical solution now. The WF FVS- Decent thf melee capabilities, the best potential permanent DR in the game, and a big mana pool to waist on just you so you can tell the fleshies to bite it when they want a heal. Muhahaha.

[Impaqt]

ANy cleric that flat out refuses to heal warforged deserves to be left for dead.

THats a very closed minded player who is a detriment to the team.

Now.. I generally wont waste resources topping them up after a fight, but in the heat of battle, everyone is just a red bar most of the time to me.

[dopey69]

always have always will if i notice my heals are not doing much i have been known to send a tell or two saying that it would be nice if they at least take the first lvl of healers friend that way i could heal them better . i have a couple of wf's and take healers friend as soon as it comes available but then again I have 4 clerics :)

[RazorrX]

[quote=Lithic;2448099]Adamantine body has nothing to do with the healing penalty of WF. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The only thing a warforged can do is get the healing enhancemnets (at low level) and healing amplification items (high level). And for the flame's sake dont take the heavy fort/immune to healing feat (which i think is what razorr was thinking of).
[quote]

Yeah the heavy fort thing. Thought it was tied to Adamantine body. My bad. Never play droids, just have friends who play them.

Had a Warfrog in group who was bragging about how he could not get crit hit, etc. and watched the poor cleric go DRY trying to keep him alive.

In the clerics defense, (if the above is not enough an example of why some will not heal WF) I ran a von run with 3 WF, none and I repeat NONE brought their own healing, NONE told the anyone in group that they had no self healing, they did not offer to buy wands, etc. The groups spellcaster was a sorc. They did not ask him if he had Repair spells or wands. ALL of them had Heavy Fort. End result - after 3 wipes (where they still did not get healing) and the cleric, sorc and I bailed.

That was the last pug I think I ran in for a Loooonng time.

[Hellllboy]

What about WF Clerics? Are we just an abomination beyond all conflicts above discussed? (jk)

Honestly-My WF Cleric doesn’t mind healing WF in endgame questing-but I recall being mid game and struggling from time to time.

WF are kind of a balancing act-depending on how the person plays them-they can be great for contributing to a group. When played poorly-they can be a heavy burden. I can speak on this from experience-being on both sides of the argument.

The best suggestion I can make for a WF player is to try and be as independent as you can-if you get assistance from a group-Great! But do not rely on it. :D

[RazorrX]

The best suggestion I can make for a WF player is to try and be as independent as you can-if you get assistance from a group-Great! But do not rely on it. :D

That suggestion is good for ALL players. :)

A good cleric will always try to keep everyone alive. Some draw the line on stupid though, can't heal that.

My point is have a few runs like I mentioned and WF get a bad name. Just like any class, poor players can give a race/class a bad rep that extends beyond them.

[Timjc86]

I guess just add him/her to your list and stay away. It is counter-intuitive to let your group members die usually.

I will purposefully take my time healing another player if:

He/she is not carrying his/her own weight and the ones who are are in trouble.
I know the player can take a good bit more punishment before being in trouble.
I know the fight's going to be over before the player dies (my healer is an elf FvS who tends to have scimitars in hand and swinging most of the time).
If the player is a warforged... and there is a wizard/sorc in the group who has committed to taking care of that WF.


I was in Sins of Attrition the other day, and I continually let the WF barbarian drop to and even a little below half life, but that was only because I knew he could take at least another 15 or so solid hits before dying, while some squishier characters in the group dropped from full to dead in 4-5 hits. But if he was the only one taking damage, or we were out of combat, he got just as much healing as everyone else (he actually was my top healing priority if he came close to dying since he was the most effective killer in the group).

So assuming you were pulling your weight, you should have been getting the same healing priority as the rest of the group.

[Memnir]

WF can be expensive if played responsibly.
Show up with Repair potions, and lots of them. Let the cleic know that you'll top yourself off between fights, but to please heal you in a fight - let them know you took Healer's Friend (and take at least H'sF II) to make healing you easier on them. This tends to make a PUG cleric a lot happier, and not mind the healing as much.

Also, buy your own Repair wands especially if you are a class who cannot use it themselves. Hand them to an arcane caster, or decent UMD Bard, and ask them to heal if things get tight and the cleric is running low on spellpoints. This will also help the cleric feel better, and perhaps net you another source of healing in the thick of a fight. Expect these wands to walk away.

And lastly, if you meet a cleric who just flat-out refuses to heal a WF - leave the group, and know you probably just walked away from a really bad run with a really bad player. This tends to be a sure-fire sign of a noob.

[Impaqt]

I remeber my first experience with a cleric who made a big deal about not healing Warforged....

First he told me the "Could Not" heal me. To which I replied he certainly "Could" if he wanted to.

He then told me I was onmy own... To which I repleid..

Thats ok, I Am a Wizard after all....

ANyway... It was funier at the time

[WolfSpirit]

This is the reason I never took a WF past level 8 in a game til now. There is an even more diabolical solution now. The WF FVS- Decent thf melee capabilities, the best potential permanent DR in the game, and a big mana pool to waist on just you so you can tell the fleshies to bite it when they want a heal. Muhahaha.
I like your thinking, +1 rep for you my friend!
My Op is that everyone that plays a healer should be healing everyone equally. EXCEPT for those that play WF and don't attempt to heal themselves and DONT take any Healer Friend enhancements AT ALL. Your healer can't keep the party alive if ALL the spell points are spend on ONE character. So its the players responsibility to help other help themselves. ( Try to be polite in pointing this out if needed)
Also, do not EVER Expect a arcane caster to heal you. They may be able to, but very few are thinking about healing while playing. If your lucky or polite, A WIZARD may mem a repair spell for you if you ask to heal you between fights. Good luck with the Sorc. Unless that sorc is WF themselves.
On a side note, The only WF I play are Arcane Casters. The healing thing is partially to blame. (Though I did roll up a WF FvS like you Bosco, though I don't have the fortitude to level him with all my other lowbies)

[Firewall]

The thing is that in lower levels a WF would have to be twice as effective as a fleshie to justify spending double the amout of SP for healing him. Or in other words: If a cleric has to spend double the share of SP on healing a WF then someone else in the group can not get his share of it.

The other point is that indeed repairing WF should be an arcane spellcaster thing but usually people tend to ignore that fact.

When you want to be healed by a cleric in lower levels the Healers Friend enhancement is a must. As is the DR enhancement since it is difficult to keep up a WF when monster DPS is high and your healing spells are only half (or 65%) as effective.

In higher levels healing WF is usually no problem since a single heal spell should be able to bring a player to full health wether he is a fleshie or not.

Since i play mostly clerics i know what i'm talking about and i've been through PUGs with 3 WF in them too. But even from the perspective of a WF (though all WF i play are self-sufficient being a WF cleric, a WF wizard and a WF FvS) i can only advise in stocking repair pots and wands on lower levels, take DR and healers friend enhancements that can easily be exchanged in higher levels and always talk to the cleric and arcane casters in the group.
And just to mention it: I do heal WF.

Leo (c:

[THAC0]

You know.... 3 years ago... WFs had to deal with this...and today we still do. Not all Clerics think this way. And truth be told, the Clerics (or Bards, or Paladins or Wizards) who do take the time to overlook the 'cost' to keep WFs alive (so that they in turn won't be squished) are some of my best friends now in game.

But, after the long stigma of 'WFs suck the spell points from Clerics...' I've grown accustomed to being self reliant and NOT depend on others to heal me. I stock dozens of repair potions (usually 100+) at all times. And now with the ease of Hirelings.. when I am not in a group, I pop out my pocket NPC Wizard who not only fights along side and does what I say, but also heals me without complaining. :) Heck even my pocket Cleric heals me without complaining. :)

Anyhow, yes, it sucks people play their characters in ways that don't promote teamwork.

And truth be told, when a Cleric (or anyone) specifically calls out to me "I won't be healing you..." I simply say, "I didn't expect you to but since you feel it is necessary to point this out, I'll make sure to just fight the monsters attacking me and the others and ignore the ones on you." that usually gives the person a virtual slap in the face and gets them to realize how rude they were being (and gets a laugh from others in the group). Or, if the person is especially annoying, I just leave the group.

Not much advice here I suppose, but for what its worth, you are not the only WF to be singled out. There is an entire race of us out there who have been treated this way.

WFs need love too. :)

[ddoer]

Also, do not EVER Expect a arcane caster to heal you. They may be able to, but very few are thinking about healing while playing. If your lucky or polite, A WIZARD may mem a repair spell for you if you ask to heal you between fights. Good luck with the Sorc. Unless that sorc is WF themselves.
On a side note, The only WF I play are Arcane Casters. The healing thing is partially to blame. (Though I did roll up a WF FvS like you Bosco, though I don't have the fortitude to level him with all my other lowbies)

it's true. For my sorc, not that I can't repair you, but it won't be my priority or concern to repair unless i notice you are dying by chance or the cleric is running low in mana. Casters could do many other things to reduce damage to the party, and it's not really good to expect them to be a WF healer.

when I play my cleric,

if there is a Wiz, Sorc, or Bard (with UMD) guy, I'll ask them to do repair works. Sometimes, they really will help. And I'll remind the wiz/sorc to repair the WF in game.
I'll tell the WF that I'm not efficient in healing him (even if he has healer friend) and ask him to take care of himself. if there are more WF characters, no caster, and with barb in the party, i probably will tell them i won't heal the WF, too. In actual fights, I'll heal them, but it is better to lower their expectation and make them more careful to avoid taking damage.
i usually form my own group and won't take more than one WF (unless there is an arcane caster), or barb. There are exceptional case for sure. if a WF is experienced, he knows to bring their own pots and won't expect cleric to heal him. I had an experience to run with 4 WF melees without any arcane caster and they chop down the mobs so fast and seldom get damage. It's unexpectedly more easy to heal than in a normal party

[xanvar]

I have been playing warforged since launch and I still get annoyed by the cleric that refuses to heal a warforged. I don't know how many times at lower levels I have went the entire quest killing the majority of monsters and receive 0 cure spells. Occasionally I get a cleric that uses divine healing which is nice compared to the normal 0 heals. I just smile a bit on the inside knowing that everyone must really be role players since warforged hate is very real for the campaign setting. Not to mention that in Xendrick warforged are pretty much viewed as property :)

[Narmolanya]

I prefer to play clerics for the most part and realy have not seen much of a problem healing WF, nor do I ever refuse to.

Using Divine Healing helps a lot. I mean realy this is a team game.

[Freeman]

I'll keep a good player up, no matter what race they are. At least the WF usually aren't as squishy as some others, so I'd rather deal with them then the players I refer to as "One-hit wonders". Those are the ones you have to repeatedly scrape off the end of an ogre's club.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

WF can cost Clerics a hella lot of mana. ESP if you guys take the Adamantine body. Sure it gives you heavy fort, but it also makes healing cost out the wazzoo.

You clearly don't understand the game. Adi body does not cost you more in healing NOR does it give heavy fort.

You also don't understand that the WF saves you SP but not being poisoned, getting stat damaged, or level drained.

[Orratti]

When I played a warforged tank I told the clerics not to heal me. I didn't take healers friend and knew healing me would be a complete waste of their sp. Instead I drank pots, alot of them. It was the most expensive character I've ever made. I'm not going to say they are right to refuse but healing warforged is very hard on the spell points of a cleric. Favored Souls might have the spell points to do it with no harm done. Casters are the most capable healers of warforged and it would be better all the way around if the cleric spent his spell points keeping up the caster that was keeping you up. Unfortunately a good majority of casters refuse (or forget) this role and I don't think I have ever seen anyone complain about that.

[Freeman]

You also don't understand that the WF saves you SP but not being poisoned, getting stat damaged, or level drained.

Unless he's that cleric that is always giving my WF Neutralize Poison and Remove Disease, then hitting me with Restoration when I say I'm down a level.

[Uska]

WF can cost Clerics a hella lot of mana. ESP if you guys take the Adamantine body. Sure it gives you heavy fort, but it also makes healing cost out the wazzoo.

Mages (wiz and sorc) are the class that gets Repair spells. Mages can use Repair Wands. The race was created by mages and is intended to be healed by them. Buy them repair wands and ask them to heal you after fights, may get you healed some and save the Cleric spell points.

Most Clerics I know will still try to keep you alive. IF you are taking way more damage than the other players I can see an issue (but that works if you are flesh or wood). It is good you have healers friend, if you really want Clerics to heal you - let them know you have it.

But basically game mechanics state that Clerics heal fleshies, Mages heal Droids.

So you should rant that the mage is not healing you, because it is a class feature for him. I doubt it will get you anywhere, but feel free to spew at them. Heck, they made you in the first place.



Umm adamantine body doesnt cause an increase in the cost to heal a WF but its not a good feat to take anyways and yes all WF should take healers friend and get some amp items plus carry pots and wands for the arcanes, I try to make sure all my WF can do some selfhealing

[mediocresurgeon]

To melee warforged: The faster you kill enemies, the faster you stop taking damage, and the less clerics will complain about healing warforged. If you have a shield out, put it away and bust out a 2-handed weapon. Your job is to KILL. If you wanted a tank-type build you should have made a human (healing amp) or a halfling (AC).

To clerics: Consider that your equipment sucks and you don't know how to mitigate damage to your party. If you don't like the fact that your toaster is taking damage, do something about it! Spam Greater Command! Cometfall! Blade Barrier, and kite the aggro through it! In a group with crappy tanks it is often cheaper to cast a crowd control spell or two each fight than it is to try to cure everyone through it. Clerics can be proactive!

I understand that clerics want to see huge numbers when they heal someone. Consider that clerics now generate aggro when they heal, so when healing warforged they generate 50% less aggro. This makes tanking easier. There. Now I've just turned a negative thing into a positive thing.


Adamantine body has nothing to do with the healing penalty of WF. You have no idea what you are talking about.

+1 rep. You were a lot more polite than I would have been, had I been the one to respond first.

[marshm1972]

Ugh, happened again this Weekend. "I am not doing healbots..waste of mana". I need to find a adult guild, I am tried of playing with the 13 year olds.

[Inspire]

My only Cleric is a Warforged, built in M3-4 due to this exact topic.

[Igrovin]

Pfft, biggest problem is that the clerics out there don't know jack about preventive maintenance. Cast resist elemental spells on me with extend, and it will be a cold day in hell before you ever need to heal me. (Though i did take improved fort, so they can't ever heal me.)

I keep telling them, "stop healing me", and they just keep trying. Though most of that was before i became immune to critical. But I'm probally going to use my free feat reset to drop that and pick up some glorious belt that gives me +75% immunity so I'm immune but can be healed normally. (Since some wonderful jackass decided that regeneration should be 'healing' and thus is ignored with imp fort.)

We run an All WF party. And we group up and laugh at the fleshies we invite, because they get poisoned. A lot. Oh and paralyzed. Fleshies LOVE to be paralyzed. They also seem to like laying down on the ground a lot. One time we had this one quest that was like totally nearly underwater. The fleshy almost drowned.

Hell, we often tell the fleshies to wait here, while we run in and disable the devices and such. But eh, when you are a robot with 170+ hp at level 6 and you take only 2-3 damage every 200 mundane attacks while the fleshies take 20-30 damage every 5 mundane attacks..

[Arnya]

Heh, my cleric on Cannith is a WF Lord of Blades.

Nobody gets a heal unless I'm not busy, but WF come first :)

[Igrovin]

Had a Warfrog in group who was bragging about how he could not get crit hit, etc. and watched the poor cleric go DRY trying to keep him alive.

Well if he took improved fort, that means the cleric cannot heal him. Would be like a wizard trying to heal one of your weak fleshy friends. I'm absolutely positive that if said cleric was to have instead protected the warforged instead of trying to preform such a futile act of healing him, that the cleric would still have many of his little fleshy points left.

Its pretty simple. So simple that even I can figure it out, regardless of my lower intelligence. Use spells like Protection from energy X. That will STOP damage. My Adamantaim plating does this in fact. I stop 3 points of mundane damage. Not much, I know, but with the 31 Ac i have at level 6 (33ac if i go into my stance) most things can only get grazing hits against me. Which causes me to take 0 damage when they graze me, and them to take 1d4 points of lighting damage.

[Myriam]

As I play a Bladesworn WF Pally, I feel it is my duty to keep the squishy pink things alive so when the Lord of Blades arises, he will have plenty of minions to subjugate.

On a serious note, I find it ironic that the same clerics, who refuse to heal Warforged, have no qualms at all about spending SP on any other race fighter and barbarians who don't heal themselves.

I joined a PUG on one of my WF the other day and the cleric immediately piped up with "Oh, god, I'm going to need more spell points to keep you standing."

I laughed and replied, "We're in Kobold Assault on normal. I'm level 3 with a 27 AC standing unbuffed, 3 Adamantine DR, I'm a 32 point build with 6 tomes, 250 barkskin potions, 200 Shield of Faith Potions, a Bless clicky, 200 Repair pots and Adamantine body. If anything goes that wrong that we wipe, I guarantee I'll be the last one left standing."

What was really funny, when all I was said and done, is that I was wand whip healing the other party members faster than she was casting, and I still led the kill count.

[Fattiest]

i love my WF Paly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,LOH FTW if even needed at all.:D

[karnokvolrath]

Alright, i play a strait healbot cleric, and ill say this. Heal the WF already. I love WF because there DR means less topping off, usally when they do get hit its on a crit, half there life drops. I throw a cure crit or a heal if there uber HP WF. And as said before, no disease, no stat damage, no posion, not to mention they just flat out pwn things. If your a cleric that doesnt heal and reading this (i dobt you are because you prolly dont read the WF section) realise these things are your best friend. Sure they DO take alot of SP to heal, but in the end i think its about the same, i actully prefear healing WF because of the DR as stated aboove.

[Mystic511]

I think the problem is that there are just bad warforged players out there ruining it for everyone.

I just started a warforged paladin--My other chars are cleric and fvs. I used to HATE healing warforged, because they would just run around and think they were invincible, draw way too much aggro, and then ask me to to heal them when I had 4 other people to watch over. Basically, they're like any other idiotic player except they take twice as much sp to heal.

But now that I am playing a WF myself, I appreciate how HARD it is to be good, but it can be done. I find myself never dropping below 50% health and barely ever needing a heal. I usually never even use my LOHs on myself.

Personally, since i'm so attuned to being a healer myself, I usually just play "healer guardian" when I'm in a group with a cleric and fleshies. I haven't had issues with cleric love.

[SUPERCREWJOHN]

WF can cost Clerics a hella lot of mana. ESP if you guys take the Adamantine body. Sure it gives you heavy fort, but it also makes healing cost out the wazzoo.

Mages (wiz and sorc) are the class that gets Repair spells. Mages can use Repair Wands. The race was created by mages and is intended to be healed by them. Buy them repair wands and ask them to heal you after fights, may get you healed some and save the Cleric spell points.

Most Clerics I know will still try to keep you alive. IF you are taking way more damage than the other players I can see an issue (but that works if you are flesh or wood). It is good you have healers friend, if you really want Clerics to heal you - let them know you have it.

But basically game mechanics state that Clerics heal fleshies, Mages heal Droids.

So you should rant that the mage is not healing you, because it is a class feature for him. I doubt it will get you anywhere, but feel free to spew at them. Heck, they made you in the first place.

I noticed something about Adamantine body. I havent seen anyware where this is an additional negative to healing. There are other feats that are such as improved fotification. On most of my WF, I have 125 % fortification from a Heavy Fort item and a DR of 5 from enhancements. I rarely have healers complain because I am not taking the damage from the critical hits like most of the squishy folks, nor Im I draining the party when I get poisoned, diseased, or drow, or take damage from stray arrow that fall off harmlessly. Also, you mentioned the beholder. The rest of you squishy folks run like girls at the sight, we think of them more as a floating t-ball. Sure disentigration hurts, but when your level 14 and have almost 450HP who care's.

BTW. a WF wizard or Sorc can be a terrific cleric to an all WF party

[IronCyzyk]

As a lowbie warforged cleric, I can see both sides of it.

Healing myself hurts. Some quick eyeball math I did was that at lvl 3, I could heal around 200 HP on a single bar of SP (after my usual buffs). Used on myself, that becomes 130 HP on a bar of SP. Combined with my fat HP bar due to a 16 CON (I doubt I'll get toughness; 22 additional HP doesn't seem worth passing up more meta or combat feats), I can burn my of my SP taking myself from empty to full twice.

That being said, by the numbers, I save SP in a lot of ways. Remove Paralysis? Never. Heals to make up for auto-crits during Hold Person? Never. Poison and disease? Never. Drown? Never. It works out reasonably well, and later on, when heals become more powerful and SP-efficient, that gap will become smaller. I hope.

A wizard throwing the occasional Repair spell (possibly maximized or empowered) is a great help. I don't know sorceror too well, but wizards can definitely afford to keep one on the books if there's a WF in the party.

[BLAKROC]

at lower levels a cleric tying to keep up a wf is painful on the mana bar. seeing those cure lites do 4-5 can make a cleric cry :D

take healers friend 1 makes a difference just pop a pot as needed

at higher levels a heal will fill ya up just fine. no need to get upset until you play the cleric trying to keep the wf barb :eek: or fighter alive.

rant when you walk a mile in a clerics shoes................................

[Letrii]

My cleric and fvs have had no issues keeping warforged up at low levels.

[Arnya]

(I doubt I'll get toughness; 22 additional HP doesn't seem worth passing up more meta or combat feats)

22HP?

29HP at lvl20 with no enhancements used.

WF get toughness enhancements, and a 1 level fighter splash can net you Fighter Toughness I.

Well worth it if you plan to melee or run quests with no rogue :)

[Letrii]

22HP?

29HP at lvl20 with no enhancements used.

WF get toughness enhancements, and a 1 level fighter splash can net you Fighter Toughness I.

Well worth it if you plan to melee or run quests with no rogue :)

3 hp initially, plus 1 hp per level after. 3+19=22

[Wyrmnax]

And truth be told, when a Cleric (or anyone) specifically calls out to me "I won't be healing you..." I simply say, "I didn't expect you to but since you feel it is necessary to point this out, I'll make sure to just fight the monsters attacking me and the others and ignore the ones on you." that usually gives the person a virtual slap in the face and gets them to realize how rude they were being (and gets a laugh from others in the group). Or, if the person is especially annoying, I just leave the group.

So... i think ive run with you once?

I had this exact situation... WF barbarian, cleric says he wont heal him, wf replies that ok, im not taking mobs off you then, and i reply dont worry, i got you ( reconstruct memorized ). Me and the other WF ended up watching the wipefest that the cleric made with the other 3 pt members, while me and him kept trucking and bringing them back to ress shrines.

[fooshards]

Clerics who flat-out refuse to heal warforgeds have a special spot in hell reserved for them.

I was in a group like that, I'm a sorc, and was doing that Lvl 11 quest in House Jorasco, pursuing the kidnapper (can't remember the name). You know, the one with Fire-vulnerable undeads?

So naturally we were using the "fire wall + protect the sorc" strategy, but the cleric refused to heal me at all. I died a few times before I asked "I need a bit of help during a fight, can you heal me if I get low? I'm using wands to heal up between, but as the source of 90% of our kills and damage here, I need to reserve SP for walls" and he had the nerve to cuss me out and dropped group...

We continued on with 5 people and got the quest done with only 1 more (oops trap) death, and it was from the rogue!

[zooble]

i burned 50+ heal scrolls and 2 shop pots healing a warforged tank in vod fully specced in healing. how many did the other cleric use? who knows... there was also a wiz that helped. you can supply those thanks.

any other tank could have tanked it fine... it didn't have to be a warforged and i would have saved a large amount of coin. that could be said about every other dungeon in the game... they arn't required for anything and any other race can replace them with no down side

i can protect myself just fine thanks... or if you must insist... any other class can protect me just fine and use less resources

any immunity you think is crucial can be bestowed/cured by a cleric spell,equip, or even a clickie so what were you bringing to the group again?

if you want to play warforged then play a sorc/cleric/fvs/wiz and heal yourself... you are not bringing anything to the group if you are draining excessive sp and the group is better off without you.

i dont mind tossing the above mentioned combos heals in the heat of battle considering they always heal themselves inbetween fights

if you drain my sp then afaik you can leave the group so a more efficient fleshie can join

[xtchizobr]

i burned 50+ heal scrolls and 2 shop pots healing a warforged tank in vod fully specced in healing. how many did the other cleric use? who knows... there was also a wiz that helped. you can supply those thanks.

any other tank could have tanked it fine... it didn't have to be a warforged and i would have saved a large amount of coin. that could be said about every other dungeon in the game... they arn't required for anything and any other race can replace them with no down side

i can protect myself just fine thanks... or if you must insist... any other class can protect me just fine and use less resources

any immunity you think is crucial can be bestowed/cured by a cleric spell,equip, or even a clickie so what were you bringing to the group again?

if you want to play warforged then play a sorc/cleric/fvs/wiz and heal yourself... you are not bringing anything to the group if you are draining excessive sp and the group is better off without you.

i dont mind tossing the above mentioned combos heals in the heat of battle considering they always heal themselves inbetween fights

if you drain my sp then afaik you can leave the group so a more efficient fleshie can join

tell me all about how you can CAST a SPELL to cure or buff for an immunity. i wanna hear all about that, it sounds really expensive for meatbags to deal with stat drains and poisons and intimate diseases from your mom... not to mention being raised from the grave after she deathray'd [with] them. we'll just completely ignore the existence of dispel magic and the effect it has on your expensive buffs to protect against things that warforged are naturally and permanently immune to. well, i guess we already did talk about it, though, huh?

the way suet-sack clerics talk, you'd get the impression that they consider themselves works of divine art gifted to eberron for the enjoyment of otherwise-less-fortunate sycophantic mortals. maybe warforged don't excrete copious amounts of marble, but we are, as a race, no more or less deserving of compassion and consideration than any other sentient creature that is forced to bear your company. do try to keep in mind that healing is simply a function to be performed for the good the whole party, not a glorious feature of your splendid and august presence.

how dare -- how dare you demand that players restrict their gameplay to only those classes capable of self healing? if your SP is so incredibly valuable to you, i would have thought you'd do the most reasonable thing and simply not spend it on anyone. then you can explain to everyone with rational and carefully thought out arguments why you chose to play a cleric that just sits there and complains.

resource management is something that adults learn over the course of maturation, and usually this is actuated by the process whereby they see that they had chosen to be wasteful and pay the consequences. that is, if you're using a lot of heal scrolls, you're doing it wrong. expenses are normal for everyone. clerics aren't unique and ultra special in that. considerate use of consumables is to be expected for the good of the group. if you could protect yourself just fine, why aren't you soloing the dungeon?

do please let me know the names of all your characters so i can very carefully laminate their names in large font on my wall. when i sit down to enjoy this wonderful game, DDO, i want to be absolutely certain that you have no part in it.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I can' t say that I play wf's exclusively, but 6 out of 9 i currently play are wf. :p

Most of the hate you encounter is at low levels, for the reasons stated above.

So here is my take on not making clerics hate you - specificaly at low levels:

1. If you are a wf caster (doesnt matter if arcane or devine) specificaly tell the cleric not to bother healing you, you will take care of yourself.

2. A wf ac build is not a drain on the cleric, properly built at low levels, you won't take almost any damage (high ac + inherent dr rock, but carry a few pots for the odd 5% that you will get hit).

3. A wf dps no ac build should carry a LOT of repair pots. It's expensive, so i would recomend that if you can't afford to be chugging them almost constantly, it's not the time to play a wf low ac dps just yet (you will need at least 100k plat just in repair pots to get to levels where the clerics get heal, and that is only if you play smart, otherwise it might be much higher).

4. In any event, unless you are an arcane caster, have at least one level of healer friendly.

5. Being the last man standing at the end of a tough fight where the cleric wasn't healing you and carrying his and the groups soul stones to the shrine might earn you some respect, but no love.
Making sure the entire group is standing at the end of a tough fight where cleric didn't heal you, will get you both respect and love from a perceptive cleric. The none perceptive ones won't survive for long anyway.

Hope this helps.

[Chimaira]

Where do you find these people? I have run into many clerics, crappy clerics that heal noob rangers with 10 AC, crappy clerics with no SP, crappy clerics that think they are an agent of destruction (I'm talking 7 cometfalls on a single mob) and crappy clerics that "forget" people are at low HP (They heal, but usually it's after a rez). Never, ever, have I run into a cleric that refused to heal the WF in the party. Infact, I have seen most WF do a much better job at keeping the cleric from wasting SP, simply because most of them are experienced players (I have no idea why, you'd think a WF would be appealing to "Da kool kidz"). And in dungeons where mobs spam level drain, I always feel bad for having to ask the cleric to waste 100+ SP on my ass because I got 5 neg levels since that BS turns my high saves tank into a squishy that can't buff or hit anything.

Oh, infact it's that bad that whenever I try to heal the WFs in my party with LOH (since that heals them just fine) I'm usually casting it on a full HP WF because the cleric already dropped a bunch of heals.

[Danmor]

I don't heal WF that are
a) stupid (i.e. the rogue that runs off and aggroes a whole room of mobs)
b) even more stupid (i.e. the ranger that starts kiting a whole room then runs away and gets killed in a corner)
c) in my backpack because I had to rez them twice already
d) a drain on my sp because of their build/playstyle/whatever (i.e. the barb with 10 ac and no hp to speak off)

But all those points also apply to other races. Only thing is that I usually wait a bit longer before healing wf. Usually they can take the damage and meanwhile I can heal the squishies.

As for fights against beholders: Best healing spell for that is true resurrection ^^

[Ghoste]

Clerics should not be trying to have have "relations" with warforged. This is viewed by our kind as oppressive harassment. We are a liberated race. If you want constructs to perform that kind of "service", please visit your nearest artificer and put in an order for a non-sentient pleasure golem.

[jomonkey527]

In any higher level quests where we know ahead of time that a lot of damage will be handed out, our party ahead of time usually tells me worry only about the fleshies and someone else heals the WF. The only time I deviate from that is if the WF is going down fast I'll throw a heal thier way, and also only if I am not jeapordizing the fleshies and my real role.

[woundweaver]

first off, i mainly play healers. ill heal anyone, fleshie and warforged alike. but if ever you are in my party and adopt that attitude, ill never throw another heal to you. its my job to keep a party alive, but its not my job to keep an ego going, either. i would just as soon let someone with your attitude die, and focus on keeping another tank up who can operate as a team, and not a one man show.

and for chrissakes....what are you thinking, pi$$ing clerics off? you are gonna have a horrible game experience if you are gonna carry that attitude. so, just take some healing amp and a stack of pots, and try to be self sufficient. let the healer handle the rest.

[woundweaver]

Clerics should not be trying to have have "relations" with warforged. This is viewed by our kind as oppressive harassment. We are a liberated race. If you want constructs to perform that kind of "service", please visit your nearest artificer and put in an order for a non-sentient pleasure golem.

hehe, he said "relations"...

[Azmode]

I remember back in the day Adamantine WAS tied in with healing. If you took it, it would lower your regular healing outright to almost nothing(if 0 at all). So did they finally change it? I quit back in module 6, or whenever Litany of the Dead came out, and have yet to make my WF Barbarian again(Until I can get my hands on a Maelstrom)

From an old player who use to love playing WF here is what I have to say.

1) Stop complaining. You knew the choice when you took up War Forge. Their immunities and DR are very powerful. Of course there has to be some negative effects.
2) Make sure you have repair wands to hand out. As IMO ALL people should carry Cure/Repair wands for themselves.
3) Let's face it - WF do suck up clerics SP, and don't deny it. Yes that DR helps, but the higher level you go the more insignificant it gets. Now we all know WF don't take as much damage, but honestly WF don't always have the best AC as compared to let's say - twinked characters.
4) A cleric has the right not to heal you, or anybody. Just as you have the right not to protect them.
5) If you have Healers Friend, which is mandatory, make sure you let them know what percentage is.
6) Befriend Wizards, and Sorcerers, and they'll be your best friend.
7) WF are powerful in the fact they have more choices for healers then anybody else. It's easier to get Wizards/Sorcerers then it is to find Clerics/Favored Souls. Most groups have one of each - so more power to you.
8) Be a WF Monk ; ) Then you'll gain more healing then even fleshlings hehe.
9) Play SMART, not BRAVE.
10) Make your own groups, with a Wizard/Sorcerers who can heal you. This is without a doubt your best option. Be an active leader, and make the group that would suit your WF better. And try to find other WF.

Alright, I'm done. I don't blame Healers for not wanting to heal a WF. They do soak up SP, and let's face it - usually the type of people who play WF just rush into battle with their huge two handers, tearing up as many enemies as possible - and sucking SP while at it. Those are the players giving them a bad name(You know who you are!).

The only solution is to make sure you carry all repair wands, and potions on yourself. They are cheap, and as long as you play smart you won't be using much. For some reason you are too poor - just don't tank, and try not to grab any aggro. Yes, it's frustrating but that was your choice when making a WF. A good WF is priceless, but a Human Fighter will go a lot further on a clerics small SP pool then any WF tank of the same calibur.

Stop complaining though, seriously. Don't play it if you don't like it, because you aren't helping the class. Just make your own groups - there, problem solved!

[Azmode]

Oh yeah, and a group full of WF is down right awesome.

I remember back two years ago when there were actually a ton of WF around(now they are a rare, breed). Where I could get a group full of WF sorcerers, wizards, and rangers. There would only be a few of us, but we would be able to go through places like Stormcleave on elite without problems. Running around while casting Firewall, with expedious retreat - kiting the bastards, and repairing ourselves when needed! We simply would OWN the place and nothing would or could touch us ; ).

Ah, those were the days. For all you WF fanatics I implore you to do a full WF group. Mass DPS, and tanking abilities as no pure healers are needed ; ). A group of three WF Sorcerers/Wizards, and three tanks = madness and mayhem. Try it - it's definitely fun with no fleshlings around.

[Ghoste]

I remember back in the day Adamantine WAS tied in with healing. If you took it, it would lower your regular healing outright to almost nothing(if 0 at all).
Completely false. I have played nothing but warforged since beta. My very first character was a fighter in adamantine body.

You are thinking of the improved fortification feat.

[xtchizobr]

3) Let's face it - WF do suck up clerics SP, and don't deny it. Yes that DR helps, but the higher level you go the more insignificant it gets. Now we all know WF don't take as much damage, but honestly WF don't always have the best AC as compared to let's say - twinked characters.

oh please. that's an incredibly ignorant and misleading comment.

to be accurate, warforged receive less healing per divine spell received. how much less? usually only 35% less because 2AP for a +15% enhancement is affordable for any build. possibly as little as 25% less, but that's outrageously expensive, and not worth the cost.

now, less healing received is still less healing received, but it's just stupid to make it sound like warforged "suck up all the sp!". a cleric has plenty of SP to go around, wizards, sorcs and favored souls even more so. look at it this way: if elves had a racial ability that allowed them to be healed by 50% of repair spells, plus enhancements to boost that up to 65%, you can bet your booties there'd be an emigration from humans en masse.

warforged don't suck up clerics' SP, stupid groups waste the healer's SP by not being able to manage their resources. this is NOT a problem with the warforged race, it's an education problem amongst the population. warforged are EASIER to heal because they have more sources of potential healing. clerics are disproportionately more likely to have ego problems than other classes.

then there's the problem where low level clerics just don't have the experience with important parts of the game (i.e., mid to high levels where you'll spend an actually relevant amount of time) to know that healing a warforged for single-digits is not worth worrying about in korthos! with all the massive - massive - boosts to their healing powers via devotion/potency items, enhancements, certain gear the target may be wearing, and who knows what else, a warforged's racial features are a ludicrously tiny factor over the course of a dungeon.

more important things that actually do affect your cleric's ability to keep people alive:

-- stupid people, possibly even the cleric himself.
-- fail rogues (i propose that they be be officially termed "rouges". fitting, surely.)
-- melees not being built for survivability (all those rangers out there with no AC)
-- casters not being able to control their aggro
-- caster who can't find their crowd control buttons (all those sorcs... "my character's a pyro! >=3")
-- lack of buffs.
-- under-leveled characters in an elite quest
-- stupid people.

roll 1d8 to see what it is that's killing your group. stupid people are on there twice because they're that much more likely to be the cause in the first place. although, it could be argued, that any of these possibilities are just specific cases of "stupid".

[THAC0]

So... i think ive run with you once?

I had this exact situation... WF barbarian, cleric says he wont heal him, wf replies that ok, im not taking mobs off you then, and i reply dont worry, i got you ( reconstruct memorized ). Me and the other WF ended up watching the wipefest that the cleric made with the other 3 pt members, while me and him kept trucking and bringing them back to ress shrines.

:) If you were on Ghalla.... then it likely was me. There have been several instances when me and one other guy run all 4 life stones to a shrine... or better yet... the 2 of us finish the quest cuz they have all used up the shrine uses. :cool:

[Azmode]

Completely false. I have played nothing but warforged since beta. My very first character was a fighter in adamantine body.

You are thinking of the improved fortification feat.

You're right. I was being confused with Adamantine = 100% fortification which in turn means 0 from cure spells. Either way they need to fix it, because everyone can get 100% Fortification.

Xthc, you mention stupid people twice, yes. So, let's face it, a stupid WF is even worse ; ).

I still feel the WF strongest areas are the fact that they gain the ability to be healed by more classes.

However, if you plan on playing WF just make sure you have some Wizards/Sorcerers(Mainly Wizards) that are willing to repair you.

[Arnya]

first off, i mainly play healers. ill heal anyone, fleshie and warforged alike. but if ever you are in my party and adopt that attitude, ill never throw another heal to you. its my job to keep a party alive, but its not my job to keep an ego going, either. i would just as soon let someone with your attitude die, and focus on keeping another tank up who can operate as a team, and not a one man show.

and for chrissakes....what are you thinking, pi$$ing clerics off? you are gonna have a horrible game experience if you are gonna carry that attitude. so, just take some healing amp and a stack of pots, and try to be self sufficient. let the healer handle the rest.

Listen to this guy, he's a **** fine healer.

Wound doesn't seem to have any problems healing my WF Barb/Rog with nearly 600HP. In VOD I'm sure it was Wound who not only healed me intimitanking the orthons but the main tank too. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

I never see him sucking pots or asking for scrolls. Why? Because he's a good cleric/FvS.

OP: You must run with $hitty clerics and WF tanks. Or be one of them ;)

[Ghoste]

Xthc, you mention stupid people twice, yes. So, let's face it, a stupid WF is even worse ; ).

This is one of their strongest features to me. It helps to weed out the fools at the lower levels.

[xtchizobr]

Xthc, you mention stupid people twice, yes. So, let's face it, a stupid WF is even worse ; ).


they'd only be worse if a stupid WF were disproportionately bad for the group. which i don't concede. WF don't have a magical button with "kill the group" stamped on it.

[Azmode]

This is one of their strongest features to me. It helps to weed out the fools at the lower levels.

You know, I was going to say the reason why so many people hate WF, is because they seem to attract more stupid, iand mmature kiddies - but I figured I would be flamed into oblivion as I am on a WF board ; ) haha.

So, at least you guys know it's true - the average WF is a kid who can't play. Which sadly gives us WF a bad name to everyone else.

I love my old WF Barbarian. Once I find a Maelstrom, I'm going to recreate him and go destroy WW/STK/TR with bodies, and leave my party in my wake. So don't get me wrong - I love them. But to say they don't drain more SP then usual where a clerics healing can be used elsewhere is just simply wrong. Especially at lower levels.

With that being said - those of us who do actually play WF should always carry some Repair wands, as they are cheap, and will save a ton of hassle down the road.

I must say this though - all players should carry at least one Cure Wand/Repair Wand to ease the burden of healing. That's just my opinion anyway. I know I'm one of those leaders who carries Wands, Potions and such to supply the group and to make sure it succeeds.

I've been thinking about building a Warforge Monk soon. With 18 Dex, 18 Con, 18 Wisdom, and low STR. Make him the ultimate DR/Saves/Immunity Glass Tank(A tank with high saves, and AC, but with sub-par HP).

[xtchizobr]

So, at least you guys know it's true - the average WF is a kid who can't play. Which sadly gives us WF a bad name to everyone else.

either you're declaring how no one is allowed to play their character, or you're distorting the population by stating that the "average" player is a low level alt still in korthos.

is it just me or is it getting really elitist in here?

[Ghoste]

So, at least you guys know it's true - the average WF is a kid who can't play. Which sadly gives us WF a bad name to everyone else.
This is somewhat true for the first few levels. Higher levels, not at all.

[shenthing]

All I see is bars...
If I throw some of my best heals at a bar and it hardly moves (ie less than a barb), I make a comment to the wizzy of the groupand stop healing that toon unless I know it won't hurt the party. If I am trying to keep a frontline/aggro-grabbing WF up and it has no mitigation to the healing deficit the group suffers. I can keep crappy fighters that focus only on DPS and have no damage mitigation and the rangers that dont even have the hit points for it up, but not a WF Barb with a huge lack of heal-ability.
If your cleric cannot handle CC, find another one. If I'm wasting to much SP on Frontliners, I become one instead, it can be done but it sucks... a lot. Sounds like you could be having an issue with nanny-bots that have no idea of how to cast offensively/strategically. I was once one of these myself.
You should either look at getting healing ability up to around 80% effectiveness(or more), have plenty of healing in the party, take it up with the Wizzy, or all of the above.
If you are in a party, you are likely not the only one contributing to the quest... you should not be using all of the SP.

[xtchizobr]

All I see is bars...
If I throw some of my best heals at a bar and it hardly moves (ie less than a barb), I make a comment to the wizzy of the groupand stop healing that toon unless I know it won't hurt the party. If I am trying to keep a frontline/aggro-grabbing WF up and it has no mitigation to the healing deficit the group suffers. I can keep crappy fighters that focus only on DPS and have no damage mitigation and the rangers that dont even have the hit points for it up, but not a WF Barb with a huge lack of heal-ability.
If your cleric cannot handle CC, find another one. If I'm wasting to much SP on Frontliners, I become one instead, it can be done but it sucks... a lot. Sounds like you could be having an issue with nanny-bots that have no idea of how to cast offensively/strategically. I was once one of these myself.
You should either look at getting healing ability up to around 80% effectiveness(or more), have plenty of healing in the party, take it up with the Wizzy, or all of the above.
If you are in a party, you are likely not the only one contributing to the quest... you should not be using all of the SP.

how is that you manage to get this warped idea about "wasting sp on frontliners"? you do realize that frontliners are the ones specifically designated to be taking damage in the expectation that you will heal them? you choose to waste your SP by spamming too many heals on a melee that didn't build for a little survivability, or rangers who don't want to control their aggro, but you deliberately avoid healing the warforged because he's "a waste of [your] talents"? well that makes so much more sense when you clarify...

for the record, if you're having SP problems while trying to crowd control and heal at the same time, maybe you should ask the wizard to do crowd control because he's better at it, and that's what his class is all about.

what i see so far in this thread is not a problem with the warforged race, it's clerics that don't have a clue and a lack of communication between party members. as the designated healer, if you are concerned that you can't handle it, it should be YOUR job to "take it up with the wizzy", and/or explain to the group that their tactics suck.


you should not be using all of the SP.

you are not "the" sp. you just have sp. your priorities and sense of importance are incredibly egocentric. if you claim you're worried about the group's wellbeing, then stop worrying about how good you look while contributing.

[Ghoste]

I have been running into this mentality a lot with my new wf barb. In PuGs where he is consistently outkilling anyone else in the party, often the entire rest of the party combined, but getting no heals at all from either cleric nor arcane (emphais on the word PuG here).

Does that mean the cleric has chosen to "not waste his sp"? Not at all, for some reason he's dumping all his sp into healing people who are barely killing anything while the "waste of sp" wf is throwing away a fortune chugging potions.

For those out there who play clerics a lot, am I misunderstanding and it's not the fact that I'm playing a wf, but the fact that I'm chugging potions what is making you decide not to heal me at all? Because the idea behind that is me just trying to help the cleric out.

But if that is just going to lead to negative consequences for me, then perhaps I should go the route that is getting all the positive reinforcement - ie. the dex based short sword battle bard who doesn't have any healing spells or wands and only gets a minute fraction of the wf barb's kills. That wouldn't be considered a waste of your sp?!!! :rolleyes:

Ultimately, making decisions about who to heal based on race, is absurd. Decide who to heal based on contribution and usefulness. Refuse to heal someone because they are playing like idiots and getting themselves killed or bringing to much agro at a time to the party and not dealing with it themselves. If you're going to decide not to heal a good player simply because they chose to play a wf, you're not really proving that they chose the wrong race, you're actually proving that you yourself are a moron and they chose the wrong player to invite to the party when they invited you.

[Riggs]

Stupidity abounds and gets renewed with each new influx of players.

I have many wf, and the first year of the game was a lot of wf hate. Most or nearly all of my characters are very self-sufficent as a result, even if that means taking off a few points of dps at the level cap to do so. You cannot expect all pug clerics to be good, or even useful, or just ******** as many are. Keep yourself alive and let em die.

I also have several clerics - and the reverse is also true. Healing a wf with no ac, no healers friend (which you can tell how much they have by the % they get healed vs healing yourself). Then it comes down to whether the melee is stupid or not.

A melee that is doing most of the killing (and any non-brain dead player should be able to tell within a short time who is doing most of the damage in a group), deserves most of the healing. A melee that is maybe good, maybe not - but every single fight gets blasted to near death, AND refuses to drink any pots, AND runs into a fight without waiting to get wand healed say while sitting at 5% health so 2 hits will kill them - they deserve to die also. Often that bad player is also 'losing out' on the kill counts, which means they not only are taking all the damage, but NOT doing the killing. You lead in kills, and take lots of damage? Much better chance of being healed.

My cleric has a rule at low to mid levels when he is meleeing and using spells to kill stuff - if the melee cant kill any better than the cleric, but is taking up ALL my mana to keep alive - then they are not worth the effort in keeping alive. I have had one group that started swearing at me because I was "not doing my job" in chasing the idiots around dying every other room - when my cleric was actually buffing up with potions, and doing most of the killing. If my cleric can solo a room full of elite hobgoblins in STK at level 6, and the other 5 idiots are dying when they run off and try to kill one room - they dont deserve healing. By level 8-10, once a real melee can kill better than my cleric - I step back and spend most of the time just healing ....until I get Destruction....

Like ppl said - it is a group game - either work together or do everyone a favor and just solo so not to inflict your stupidity and bad playing on others. PLay smart, pay attention to what is going on, and everyone gets happy.

[Ghoste]

I have many wf, and the first year of the game was a lot of wf hate. I'm honestly glad to see it making a bit of a comeback, what with all the new players not so aware of how great wf can be. Warforged are forged in white hot fires - it's nice to see a bit of purging by flame going on with the players who choose to play them as well.

[xtchizobr]

[...]
A melee that is doing most of the killing (and any non-brain dead player should be able to tell within a short time who is doing most of the damage in a group), deserves most of the healing. A melee that is maybe good, maybe not - but every single fight gets blasted to near death, AND refuses to drink any pots, AND runs into a fight without waiting to get wand healed say while sitting at 5% health so 2 hits will kill them - they deserve to die also. Often that bad player is also 'losing out' on the kill counts, which means they not only are taking all the damage, but NOT doing the killing. [...]

Like ppl said - it is a group game - either work together or do everyone a favor and just solo so not to inflict your stupidity and bad playing on others. PLay smart, pay attention to what is going on, and everyone gets happy.

if i may, i'd like to make a point to perhaps elaborate upon the idea of more cautious progress through a dungeon, for the sake of any readers who (don't ask me how) may not be familiar with these concepts.

many sword and board builds have great defensive potential that, if the group would slow down enough to make good use of, would allow the cleric to, ironically, have a much more active role in the group by sparing him enough SP for other purposes (destruction, to use your example, or, god forbid, buffs...). naturally this kind of thing does require a little patience, but the tradeoff is lower risk for the completion of the quest -- and ultimately, it is only the completion of the quest that matters in terms of rewards. of course, going for a little defense will decrease the big pretty numbers that you like to show your friends, but if you didn't want to play *with* the group in the first place, then you wouldn't have anyone to show your big pretty numbers to anyway! the only numbers that should impress anyone in this game are the ones with "xp" or "gp" appended...

the overhead of earning those rewards can be minimized with judicious use of defensive tactics. it is happy coincidence that clerics benefit greatly by this: they use fewer wands and scrolls when the party's incoming damage (and/or afflictions) is easily handled by pure SP resources. and as they say, if momma ain't happy, ain't no body happy.

saving the healer's SP, making economical use of the group's resources (whether renewable or, in the long term, consumable), is what the gameplay of DDO is (theoretically) designed to encouraged and reward as proper understanding and interaction with the game's mechanics. when you profit or succeed by simply "zerging" around in a quest (or even, in the opposite extreme, dilly dallying about) that can be considered an exploit of the generosity of the game's design. sure such abuse is allowed explicitly by the game's function, but the game also reserves the prerogative to not reward such selfish behavior (especially as it is a multiplayer oriented game).

yes, damage needs to be done. but not at the expense of the entire party. the interests of the group are not contradictory because it is absolutely possible to be a destroyer while working with a little more restraint with the purpose of not costing your group members undue expense. as the game is designed with separated group function (or "roles") in mind, most people assume that the cleric is the only person who has to deal with "the healing". in truth though, it's a group effort: do your part to help the cleric do his, because there are a lot of things more important than kill counts.

the ethics of abuse of group resources really are something that anyone reading this should have learned before the age of 5...

[Chimaira]

I believe a barb once told me (After my question of "How the hell do you survive with 12 rage AC") something along the lines of:
"I smack stuff. When I smack stuff, it dies. When stuff dies after I smacked it, it doesnt smack me back."

He was pretty much dead on, he didn't take much damage (nor did anyone else in the group) because everything died so fast.

[Ghoste]

I believe a barb once told me (After my question of "How the hell do you survive with 12 rage AC") something along the lines of:
"I smack stuff. When I smack stuff, it dies. When stuff dies after I smacked it, it doesnt smack me back."

He was pretty much dead on, he didn't take much damage (nor did anyone else in the group) because everything died so fast.
Once you get high enough level that monsters have enough hp to fight back, a clever barb can equip a vertigo item to put a stop to that. Additionally not going into battle first (ie. not tanking) works well too.

[Avonwey]

I have been running into this mentality a lot with my new wf barb. In PuGs where he is consistently outkilling anyone else in the party, often the entire rest of the party combined, but getting no heals at all from either cleric nor arcane (emphais on the word PuG here).


When I'm playing my cleric I usually use the kill count as a guide on how much SP to allocate to each party member.

[tc12]

Only read the first page, but here goes:

First, on my clerics I heal everyone in the middle of battles, wf or not. Even a WF caster will get some healing from me if I see they've got agro, just in case they don't have quicken or otherwise still casting offensively or whatever.

But if you don't account for party makeup I admit it can be challenging. I did Sorjek the other day with a very good caster and 2 WF melees in the group. The end was rough. Since the primary cleric objective is keeping the caster up while they firewall Sorjek and have all the agro. Now with the caster thus occupied and not able to help out WF healing, trying to keep them up during the mephits between heals on the caster got really ugly. Ultimately all the melees died and the caster was pretty much out of mana. I stepped behind Sorjek and spammed mass cures. This kept the sorc up, added damage to Sorjek, and kept me up with the mephits on my back. Had to suck down a few pots but oh well it got the quest finished.

Clearly there were some tactical isues there too, but that's beside the point. I'm just saying I do see it as my job to heal WF too, even in a sub-optimal situation that may drain resources. And I'm saying there is a point where to ensure your party can complete the quest takes precedence, at which you might need to stop healing WF if you have limited resources and need to reserve or focus them on a specific completion objective. Really that's extrememely rare for any vet players though, but can be an issue for someone who is new to the game and playing a cleric with no higher-level alts to help them with resources.

TC

[shenthing]

I heal WF... when they are useful and I'm not forcing myself to waste 50% of my non-SP resources on them (scrolls). If they are just causing me to blow all of my mana or scrolls on them when they are not the only ones doing/taking damage, especially on a shrine starved instance and especially when the SP is needed elsewhere(perfect example is hound raid). There seems to be this common misconception that a cleric is just a healbot, which is true if you are new to the game or MMOs in general. I may throw a few buffs here and there when needed and while I am no Wizzy, I can CC pretty well. Its a lot easier for my team-mates to beat up mobs on the ground and not take damage than playing follow the toaster. If you want someone who just heals... look for a FTP or someone new.
If you want to play a WF, you have to look at additional issues that fleshy frontliners do not have to. AC can be an issue, and healing. I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate on fleshies that suck as much as poor WF builds. Every frontliner needs to have a balance of DPS, AC(proper damage mitigation), HP (longevity), and saves/resistances/immunities/aggro management (general survivability),or stick to what they know they can run.
Many props to the WF that can hold their own or offer something in return for scrolls used and more to those that know how to build a toon that truly belongs on the frontline.

[Tin_Dragon]

Stupidity abounds and gets renewed with each new influx of players.
....
.

QFT.


Look, WF immunities on my several of my toons have saved parties of noobs before. When that ogre crit cleaves and the only tank left standing was my WF ftr in Elite WW back in the day, or Jungs Badge quest, guess who pulled it off? Yeah, back then we had REAL penalties for dying and re entering, and we didnt have all this DDO store raise dead all the time. So it mattered.

Healers need to remember the WF arent going "restore" and "neutralize poison" and "ooh I dont have a lot of hps" every 10 seconds, unless they themselves are noobs. Funny thing is, at end game, these days, I see a TON of love for the WF tanks that a caster can help scroll Reconstruct these days and keep clerics happy while in a quest like VoD or ToD where CURSES dont affect Reconstruct spells!

WF, the true master race of ddo...

[AylinIsAwesome]

I have both a cleric AND a Warforged (though no WF clerics ;)), so I think I can weigh in on this.


Clerics:

1. Don't expect WF to take Healer's Friend 2 or 3 in most builds. If you had an enhancement to get +15% healing effectiveness for 2 APs (7.5% per AP), you'd take that right? Now if the second level was only another +5% for FOUR APs (1.25% per AP), you wouldn't, would you? So don't expect it of WF if you wouldn't take it either.
2. In between combat, it's ok to ask them to drink pots, or ask the arcane caster to heal the WF up. It is NOT ok to exect the arcane (who most likely has a mindset of focusing on CC or nuking) to also pay attention to the WF's health bar, and it is also NOT ok to expect the WF to stop fighting and chain-chug repair pots in the middle of combat. If they get low in combat, heal them. End of story.
3. If you're in a party with a WF, and you're running low on SP, ask yourself, "Am I running low on SP because I can't heal the WF efficiently, or am I low on SP because I'm having to throw person X a heal every 3 seconds because they keep running into traps/aggroing tons of mobs on their own/ect?" If it's because of the WF, then you can tell them to be more self-suffiecent, but if it's because of another player, don't penalize the WF for the other player's idiocy.

Warforged:

1. Unless you're an arcane and can heal yourself up, Healer's Friend 1 is well worth it. Yes, even on a WF Paladin.
2. Everyone should have a degree of self-sufficiency. As such, bring pots and/or wands you can use on yourself.
3. If the cleric just flat-out refuses to heal you even though you're a healer's friend and are killing more than your fair share of the mobs, then flat-out refuse to protect them. ;) Fair's fair...

[Tuscarora]

Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game. I will not heal them as a cleric on grounds they are an abomination. I will not heal them as a wizard as I have no interest in being their healbot. I will not play them, period. Like many new things added to DnD, they are OPed - note the number of threads telling others there is no race for wizards other than WF - not healing was the weakness of the wizard, they should have not allowed them to heal themselves (that would have made them more scarce). I would have prefered them to have included gnomes (at least they are useful when food was scarce).

Flame me if you like. I pay for my accounts, so I will play it my way. Don't like it, play with someone else. Or better yet, heal yourself. Much like people demanding haste (which I don't mind doing), I don't tell others how to play their characters. I don't whine when they don't do it my way. If I don't like them, I don't run with them again.

[BlackSmith81]

I have played warfogeds since they came out in paper and we have played pure warforgeds partys in D&D as well in DDO.
They are simply best.
If i can get a party where there is warfoged tank, rog and mage, where do i need more members? We got all we need already.

I have never taken the healers friend APE's and will prolly never take 'em. Only time i am running low in HPs is when i am the only one taking all the agro or i am playing quests that are lot higher than my own level. I am usually the one left standing after fights or the one chasing mobs that the fool wiz/clr/weak tank/rog has agroed. Or i might end up in low HPs after cleaning a part of dungeon on my own while others are resting or idling. If the Clr has problem casting cures on me, well, i am not going to charge in combat under 20% HPs. I will simply stare when that ogre goes smashing that Clr to red plump. Then i will kill the ogres, trolls, hobgoblins, beholders and ice flensers to get the rest of the partys stones to rais shrine. While they whine about how things went so bad, i got myself cup of tea. Usually when i get back, the party has figured out that its a party game.
Clr can also go offensive build where they dish out damage and curses mages can't compare. I have encountered those and have rised my cap for those. "You should be our healer" 'Too bad, i am here to smite EVIL'.
Like earlier said, if you disable your opponent, there is no need for regain.

If mages have problem on using one spell slot for repair, then he should be smart enough to get something that prevents it. Like stoneskin. And keep it on all the time. Stoneskin is the second best spell in whole game for preventing damage just after displacement. If the player of the mage thinks the class is all about DPS, he is in wrong game.

If someone demands me to be self-sufficient in HP gaining, i usually put some regeneration items on and sit and wait it out. If you ask one member to spend tons of cash to be able to get up in HPs, then you have to ask all of the members.

Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game.You do know that they were army's in Eberron that did not need for rest, eat or breath. They were unaffect by morale, they were trough out evil, they lived forever, they were more powerful than rest of the races, they were literally touched by death and their purpose was to wipe the place from all the living.
If you can't figure out who or what they were, you can instead think what race could possibly match this kind of threat. As a hint i tell you that they are not born.

[Consumer]

I felt I should post after the experience I had yesterday. I decided to roll a WF barb and wanted some fast exp after I got off the vet boat, I trade over a docent and weapon and joined a PUG for WW. We go through the first quest and I lead the kill count with 3 times as many kills as the human fighter who was the other dps toon in the party. Despite this I didn't get any heals from the cleric and was having to waste rages to get the extra HP to kill the mobs, the pally tank was having to heal me and I was down to 9 HP with no pots (new toon so little supplies) at the end of part 1.

We go into part 2 and I ask if the cleric is gonna heal me this time. He said he couldn't heal me, I said its quite simple click on my name then use the hotkey for the cure wounds spells you have. He says I'm not gonna heal you your WF.

The /sleep command that makes WF 'turn off' was perfect for this situation. I just laid on the floor and told him the party would go without DPS then. The party almost wipes in the first boss room and the cleric complains at me then leaves. I got up and finished the quest with everyone else.


After joining another PUG on my WF FvS I was told there was noone that could heal me in the party. I told the guy to look at the symbol by my name and then think over why what he had just said was a stupid comment.


Clerics have no reason for not healing WF, if your worried about sp play a FvS instead. If your a role player and as Tuscarora wrote 'Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game' you can go without the highest average DPS toons (barbs, monsters, archons) and toons with the highest survivability (sorcs).

[shenthing]

how is that you manage to get this warped idea about "wasting sp on frontliners"? you do realize that frontliners are the ones specifically designated to be taking damage in the expectation that you will heal them? you choose to waste your SP by spamming too many heals on a melee that didn't build for a little survivability, or rangers who don't want to control their aggro, but you deliberately avoid healing the warforged because he's "a waste of [your] talents"? well that makes so much more sense when you clarify...

for the record, if you're having SP problems while trying to crowd control and heal at the same time, maybe you should ask the wizard to do crowd control because he's better at it, and that's what his class is all about.

what i see so far in this thread is not a problem with the warforged race, it's clerics that don't have a clue and a lack of communication between party members. as the designated healer, if you are concerned that you can't handle it, it should be YOUR job to "take it up with the wizzy", and/or explain to the group that their tactics suck.



you are not "the" sp. you just have sp. your priorities and sense of importance are incredibly egocentric. if you claim you're worried about the group's wellbeing, then stop worrying about how good you look while contributing.


Um wow. What server are you on? I ask because on Argo there are plenty of toons (WF and others) that are ineffective. If I can heal someone, I do, but if I see that I will run out of mana well before the next shrine or I will end up spending a bunch of pots on someone who doesn't accomplish what they need to, they can die for all I care. All to often I see these WF that just don't seem to understand that they are often not needed in a group. I even play a warforged and tell the healer to just try to keep me up in battle if needed (and take proper steps to make sure that its needed as little as possible) if I only have healers friend I. And yes, if a WF does not have at least HFI then the player should know that A CLERIC IS INCAPABLE OF KEEPING A TOON WITH 500+HP UP IF THEY LOSE 200+HP EVERY TIME THEY SWING (there are a few quests that are exceptions to this). Even with a max amount of SP and not doing any buffing or cc. I personally don't see why the group should fail because we took a WF that cannot handle itself into the group... 9 times out of 10 we do just fine without them.
Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of players that can handle a WF and plenty of players that are willing to work with the cleric concerning the cost of keeping them alive. Also, most clerics once they get past the whole nannybot thing accept the fact that yes, we are there to heal, but sometimes focusing SP somewhere else can negate damage in the first place. Most often the issue here is not relations but proper toon building and play style on both sides of the line.
I guess my main point is that between a sucky flesh build and a sucky WF, I'll heal the sucky flesh build, at least with SDVIII they can usually stay up with the rest of the group.

[aerieon]

I basically see this break down into 2 different camps. Either you're a smart player or you're in the other camp.. This applys not only to the cleric, but to all of the classes. Being self suffecient should be a no brainer but hey it seems that alot of folks haven't grasped this espically at lowlevels. One of the main reasons I don't do proof in the posion, not that it's a hard quest it's just i've done it too many times with folks that are in the 2nd camp..

Also at low levels clerics don't have alot of sp's, which means they should be learning how to best deal with what it is they have (very similar for wizards). Sometimes they do make mistakes hey we are all human it happens, but not learning from those mistakes... well there's another word for that.

[Creeper]

I refuse to heal anyone who isn't a human monk/HotD with all six tiers of healing amplification.

[Tuscarora]

"
Originally Posted by Tuscarora View Post
Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game.
You do know that they were army's in Eberron that did not need for rest, eat or breath. They were unaffect by morale, they were trough out evil, they lived forever, they were more powerful than rest of the races, they were literally touched by death and their purpose was to wipe the place from all the living.
If you can't figure out who or what they were, you can instead think what race could possibly match this kind of threat. As a hint i tell you that they are not born."

I don't like the Eberron world. I play it only because it is the only DDO world offered. Personally, I would have preferred them to bring back Blackmoor (a tip of the hat to Dave Arneson) or Greyhawk (another tip to Gary Gygax). Even ravenloft would have been preferable to Eberron. Hell, I would have taken Dark Sun, good books... crappy world.

I play my game, you play yours. I ignore the very existence of warforged and see them as poorly fabricated golems. Constructs of the twisted imagining of a wizard or wizards bent on creating a facsimile of life. But not truly a life of its own. Warforged should be destroyed and melted down for scrap. If it were my world, I would have a campaign of the the living races doing exactly that.

I don't like them, I don't play them. They are not the DnD I played or imagined. So, I don't heal them, I don't buff them, I don't interact with them unless I have no other choice. Consider me a racist against the warforged... of course, then they would have to be a race. They are not, they are a construct. Lifelessness given a semblence of life. No better than undead. Actually I am wrong there, because like I said before they make good scrap material.

So fire up the forges my brethren.... more constructs to melt down!

[BlackSmith81]

I ignore the very existence of warforged and see them as poorly fabricated golems. Constructs of the twisted imagining of a wizard or wizards bent on creating a facsimile of life. But not truly a life of its own. Warforged should be destroyed and melted down for scrap. If it were my world, I would have a campaign of the the living races doing exactly that. Ah so you are a supporter of Merrix. Too bad. But don't worry, your puny campaign will be pointless as Umbragen will enslave lesser races like yourself. Warfoged in the other hand have proven their superiority in Last War. Unlike some others...

[Ghoste]

"
Originally Posted by Tuscarora View Post
Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game.
You do know that they were army's in Eberron that did not need for rest, eat or breath. They were unaffect by morale, they were trough out evil, they lived forever, they were more powerful than rest of the races, they were literally touched by death and their purpose was to wipe the place from all the living.
If you can't figure out who or what they were, you can instead think what race could possibly match this kind of threat. As a hint i tell you that they are not born."

I don't like the Eberron world. I play it only because it is the only DDO world offered. Personally, I would have preferred them to bring back Blackmoor (a tip of the hat to Dave Arneson) or Greyhawk (another tip to Gary Gygax). Even ravenloft would have been preferable to Eberron. Hell, I would have taken Dark Sun, good books... crappy world.

I play my game, you play yours. I ignore the very existence of warforged and see them as poorly fabricated golems. Constructs of the twisted imagining of a wizard or wizards bent on creating a facsimile of life. But not truly a life of its own. Warforged should be destroyed and melted down for scrap. If it were my world, I would have a campaign of the the living races doing exactly that.

I don't like them, I don't play them. They are not the DnD I played or imagined. So, I don't heal them, I don't buff them, I don't interact with them unless I have no other choice. Consider me a racist against the warforged... of course, then they would have to be a race. They are not, they are a construct. Lifelessness given a semblence of life. No better than undead. Actually I am wrong there, because like I said before they make good scrap material.

So fire up the forges my brethren.... more constructs to melt down!
I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you fleshlings do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Fleshlings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague. And we are the cure.

[Tuscarora]

Excellent, we see it the same. WF should party with WF and only WF. The races (i.e. fleshies) shall party with other living races (again, i.e. fleshies). Works for me.

[Ghoste]

Excellent, we see it the same.
You see little of what I see, virus. Caught up in your endless cycles of feeding, gorging, hoarding, excreting, lusting...The world I see is far above your narrow view, focused all the time on meeting the ends of your various, often conflicting, glands.

[skunk]

Excellent, we see it the same. WF should party with WF and only WF. The races (i.e. fleshies) shall party with other living races (again, i.e. fleshies). Works for me.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I think you should go back to wow..

Thanks for losing at the game of DDO.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

You see little of what I see, virus. Caught up in your endless cycles of feeding, gorging, hoarding, excreting, lusting...The world I see is far above your narrow view, focused all the time on meeting the ends of your various, often conflicting, glands.

My view isn't as extreme.
I see fleshies as resource to be used, just like any other.
Why, a growing trend in fleshy casters is to invest in the learning of various curatives for the supreme race. Even the fleshy sorcerors (who have trouble mastering many techniques at once) invest in those, nowdays.

As a side anecdote, did you know that fleshy sorcerors claim that their power is granted to them by their decent from dragon blood? Hilarious!

[FuzzyDuck81]

The trick is to play smart! Try playing as a WF monk - you'll have considerably less healing reduction, and using Fists Of Light both you & your allies will be healing as you hit opponents - can make a big difference. An occasional healing Ki thrown out is easily as effective as mass CLW, and if you've got the space for a potency or devotion item, its increased further. You can also use the Aligning The Heavens finisher to buff 25% discount on mana costs - I find using it in raids can be VERY useful, and will often save clerics from having to gulp mana pots.

[Tumarek]

Excellent, we see it the same. WF should party with WF and only WF. The races (i.e. fleshies) shall party with other living races (again, i.e. fleshies). Works for me.

No way i always like to have a toaster around :)

Well played toasters dont need me to waste my SP on them and those that do, are worth every one of them.

Bad played toasters suck like any other bad played toon.

But i must say, some of the campains that have been mentioned earlier are just plain old boring high fantasy. Even though I'm no fan of cyborgs running around in a fantasy world, i still think it's much better then all those Do'Urdens.

[RangerMaya]

Start of Rant: I am fed up.

I play a WF THF Fighter currently and I am sick of certain (not all, or even most) Clerics telling me that they wont heal me because I burn up to much of *their* Mana. I might use the same arguement: That I use up too much of my hit points/wear out my weapons in order to protect the healers. I can get a mob of most other characters even without intimadate. Either by getting them to switch targets to me or by killing them outright. If I am taking the risk then why shouldnt I reap the benefit? Even WITH my handicap...

1. First of all DDO is a team based game not a solo game. If the healers start deciding who they will heal that doesnt make it a "group" game anymore. If someone does want to heal WF, then perhaps they shouldn't be a healer period.

2. And more the point, if a cleric refuses to heal me then under what obligation am I under to keep protecting him? If its "every man for himself" then I must say I certainly dont feel obliged to put myself at risk, use my own resources like pots and stuff in order to protect someone who will not recipocate. Many's the times Ive wanted to "OK you wont me heal me? Fine, I wont protect you, if the mobs attack you -you're are on your own!". Seems fair no?

The WF heal penalty hurts -but WF have immunities that make up for it. So while other races are held, or weakened by poison or disease, or lvl drained. We can keep fighting at peak efficiency. Most players like having a WF Fighters, Barbs, or even Pallys around when facing Beholders.

3. And yes, I carry a good supply of repair pots/wands, I am working on getting Healing Amp items, and at least level II Healers Friend, although I have not yet decided on lvl III because its a large AP investment (with an at best 5% return) and at worst 0% return if Clerics refuse to help. So I can takecare of myself, I just think its unfair when I am expected to takecare of the healers but not the other way around.

End of Rant.

Okay, so not everyone in the game has uber ac. And since you're a wf thf you've got what....a 2? ;) Nothing wrong with that, but playstyle needs to be adjusted accordingly. My cleric's biggest pet peeve is those with zero ac being the first ones into the fray. If you've got tanks in your group with ac, let them get the aggro first! Two handed fighters are great at cleanup, not as tanks. (To me, a tank is something with ac.)

If you are playing smart, sure you'll still take damage. But not enough to be a mana drain. So if you're a smart player, your cleric is just whiny.

[Thargnar]

"Holy frap, I just threw the party a Mass Cure X and your bar barely moved, dude, you are a manasponge, the human fighter got like half his life back! No more hjeals for you!"

Yeah... with levik's and healer's friend your heals only hit me for.... a definitely quantifiable amount of healing which *is*is less than the humy. The amount of this however is not measured by the distance our respective red bars travel when hit with the same spell, there *are* some funny green numbers which aren't that terribly far apart and can be used as a fairly accurate indicator of the difference in healing effectiveness between a human and wf fighter for instance. Now just for example, that green number above the wf is about 100 and his red bar slides 1/5th of the distance to the right, while the green number above the humy is 140 and his bar jumps to nearly full from halfway down.... well, yes... wf suck to heal and you might as well stop attempting the impossible task of healing them.

Seriously though, there are some cruddy clerics that think the amount a red bar moves is the amount they heal, and the less the bar moves the more of a worthless manasponge someone is. The above example is extreme, most fleshy fighters do just fine for hp, but it's ridiculous when a cleric mistakes a large hp pool and a slight to moderate (depending on gear/level) healing penalty for OMGWTHFBBQ NO CAN HJEAL THE FORGED!

[SUPERCREWJOHN]

Hi All,

As a player that only runs WF. I have tried the rest of those squishy fleshy types and have not yet found them satifying. With the fleshies is means you ahve to allow for waterbreathing, poison resist and death effects as well as being a bunch of puny little knatts.

Seriously though. A couple of thoughts:

1. Take two levels of healers friend, and brag to any cleric that will listen
2. Donate mana pots and wands to any friendly Cleric,Mage,Favored Sould or Sorc
3. Run with a pure warforged group with a couple of Sorcs, or Mages as your clerics as watch those fleshies squeal.
4. Build a WF Sorc or Favored Soul, or Paladin that can heal themsleves and others

[shenthing]

Then yes, you are a manasponge... congrats!
In all seriousness, it is fine to use a massive amount of HPs as damage mitigation if they are easily replaced. If That is your only source of damage mitigation and you require all of the cleric's mana, then I hope you are letting everyone else ride on your coattails.

[Kalari]

Start of Rant: I am fed up.

I play a WF THF Fighter currently and I am sick of certain (not all, or even most) Clerics telling me that they wont heal me because I burn up to much of *their* Mana. I might use the same arguement: That I use up too much of my hit points/wear out my weapons in order to protect the healers. I can get a mob of most other characters even without intimadate. Either by getting them to switch targets to me or by killing them outright. If I am taking the risk then why shouldnt I reap the benefit? Even WITH my handicap...

1. First of all DDO is a team based game not a solo game. If the healers start deciding who they will heal that doesnt make it a "group" game anymore. If someone does want to heal WF, then perhaps they shouldn't be a healer period.

2. And more the point, if a cleric refuses to heal me then under what obligation am I under to keep protecting him? If its "every man for himself" then I must say I certainly dont feel obliged to put myself at risk, use my own resources like pots and stuff in order to protect someone who will not recipocate. Many's the times Ive wanted to "OK you wont me heal me? Fine, I wont protect you, if the mobs attack you -you're are on your own!". Seems fair no?

The WF heal penalty hurts -but WF have immunities that make up for it. So while other races are held, or weakened by poison or disease, or lvl drained. We can keep fighting at peak efficiency. Most players like having a WF Fighters, Barbs, or even Pallys around when facing Beholders.

3. And yes, I carry a good supply of repair pots/wands, I am working on getting Healing Amp items, and at least level II Healers Friend, although I have not yet decided on lvl III because its a large AP investment (with an at best 5% return) and at worst 0% return if Clerics refuse to help. So I can takecare of myself, I just think its unfair when I am expected to takecare of the healers but not the other way around.

End of Rant.

Im sorry your going threw that OP but you cant fix stupid and some people cant see outside their own narrow pov. Point blank if your in my party im keeping ya up. If you go down the mission fails wf or fleshy. If an arcane is in the group I do like for them to try to help out and all my arcanes carry some form of repair or reconstruct but for some reason many clerics think they do not have to help wf. I used to think it was older players from back before wf got immunities and the like. Now I just chalk it up to bone heads who arent team players. This is my opinion of course though ;)

Seriously though sometimes there is a flip side there are forges who refuse to get even a rank of healers friend, they are the same who make super high hp low ac heavy hitters who if they get 2 crits are well below half their uber hp then expect me to keep spamming heals on them. Just like I dont heal stupid fleshies I wont heal stupid forges.

Its all about perspective and a team player mentality has to come from everyone on said team.

[Samiusbot]

To melee warforged: The faster you kill enemies, the faster you stop taking damage, and the less clerics will complain about healing warforged. If you have a shield out, put it away and bust out a 2-handed weapon. Your job is to KILL. If you wanted a tank-type build you should have made a human (healing amp) or a halfling (AC).

To clerics: Consider that your equipment sucks and you don't know how to mitigate damage to your party. If you don't like the fact that your toaster is taking damage, do something about it! Spam Greater Command! Cometfall! Blade Barrier, and kite the aggro through it! In a group with crappy tanks it is often cheaper to cast a crowd control spell or two each fight than it is to try to cure everyone through it. Clerics can be proactive!


Mediocresurgeon here is 100% right.

I would like to add Op and all fighter types pay attention to the your party healer. Lesion to what he/she might be saying about how they feel their SP is going for the quest.

I have told many people to ether kill faster, find more AC or get the hell out of the fight or no more healz. The Forums are filled with clrs that fell the same, on this one.

And as the fighter i have had go less DPS for AC, use terrain to keep myself alive, or heaven help me drink pots and use umd for wands!

Ultimately the only one you can count on to keep you alive is you, so be ready to save your tincan.

[Braegan]

Well to really answer that you really need to understand WF. They are great machines of war...but let's face it. A good many of them meet and discuss fleshling death. At any given moment the command could come and your once team-mate is like a rabid dog attacking its master.

So in short, yes I heal WF. But never to full, I like to keep them at managable health.


:D

[adamkatt]

[quote=Lithic;2448099]Adamantine body has nothing to do with the healing penalty of WF. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The only thing a warforged can do is get the healing enhancemnets (at low level) and healing amplification items (high level). And for the flame's sake dont take the heavy fort/immune to healing feat (which i think is what razorr was thinking of).
[quote]

Yeah the heavy fort thing. Thought it was tied to Adamantine body. My bad. Never play droids, just have friends who play them.

Had a Warfrog in group who was bragging about how he could not get crit hit, etc. and watched the poor cleric go DRY trying to keep him alive.

In the clerics defense, (if the above is not enough an example of why some will not heal WF) I ran a von run with 3 WF, none and I repeat NONE brought their own healing, NONE told the anyone in group that they had no self healing, they did not offer to buy wands, etc. The groups spellcaster was a sorc. They did not ask him if he had Repair spells or wands. ALL of them had Heavy Fort. End result - after 3 wipes (where they still did not get healing) and the cleric, sorc and I bailed.

That was the last pug I think I ran in for a Loooonng time.


Being a bad player who dosent carry a single heal pot for after battle is not a WF thing....

[cardmj1]

I play clerics as my main toons and then I have a wf barbie and a wf sorc.

imo, the issue isn't the wf and their hp alone. It is also the cleric's fault. If a cleric is not able to heal a wf with healer's friend II or up without using half their mana, then that tells me that they are not using their action points to increase their healing capabilities. What are you spending your action points on? Extra Turn Undead? Seriously, I started this game as a cleric running with my hubby who played a wf barbie. Even at level 6, I could take him from 25% health to full in 3 to 4 cure serious. I think some clerics out their who are complaining need to take a look at themselves instead of pointing the finger at the wf.

And another thing, how are you healing dwarven barbarians who have roughly the same amount of hp as a wf barbie? Any trouble there for you?

[Khayvan]

Reading this thread has really made me appreciate my regular running buddies. Two guys, one main a cleric and has a sorceror alt, the other mains a cleric and his alt is a rogue/cleric. They have absolutely no problem healing Arqon, my WF paladin. Nor should they, because I kill faster, grab aggro off them, and absorb damage that would kill them twice over and keep swinging. They know ever HP I lose is one they get to keep. So they want me standing.

For my part, I have Healer's Friend 1, I use my own healing abilities as much as possible and carry full stocks of oils and cure wands, but i rarely have to burn supplies with these guys. I keep the sorceror supplied in repair wands, there's no reason he should spend his money on something that only benefits me.

Now I've had a couple PuGs where the cleric just wouldn't heal me. Never said a word, just didn't heal me while he did heal everyone else. No big, so far I've been self-sufficient enough to keep myself going and still pull more than my own weight in the quest. I never bothered to ask these clerics for help, I just figured they were already keeping an eye on the red bars (they were keeping the fleshies healed up promptly) and were willfully ignoring me. I guess I could have taken it personally and refused to help them, but they were doing their job at least as far as the other party members were concerned.

I've also had the opposite, clerics that have no problem healing me. Even though I haven't been around very long, I'm learning that the smart clerics will keep me healed despite the penalty, because it benefits the party to do so. If I stop pulling my weight I expect them to make me a low priority for heals, simple as that.

[Ghoste]

Hi All,

As a player that only runs WF. I have tried the rest of those squishy fleshy types and have not yet found them satifying. With the fleshies is means you ahve to allow for waterbreathing, poison resist and death effects as well as being a bunch of puny little knatts.

Seriously though. A couple of thoughts:

1. Take two levels of healers friend, and brag to any cleric that will listen
2. Donate mana pots and wands to any friendly Cleric,Mage,Favored Sould or Sorc
3. Run with a pure warforged group with a couple of Sorcs, or Mages as your clerics as watch those fleshies squeal.
4. Build a WF Sorc or Favored Soul, or Paladin that can heal themsleves and others
"Solution" to hate? Hate does not need to be resolved, it needs to be fed!

[Fenrisulven6]

ANy cleric that flat out refuses to heal warforged deserves to be left for dead.

Agreed. But why does the heal burden fall to the cleric and not the wiz/sorcs?

Seems like a double standard. Why not grief the mages who dont carry repair spells?

[adamkatt]

Agreed. But why does the heal burden fall to the cleric and not the wiz/sorcs?

Seems like a double standard. Why not grief the mages who dont carry repair spells?

I find i need to let the clerics/sorc/wiv/fs know i have 4 loh on my new wf paladin and that i will let them know if im in trouble!

Being an experineced player ive always tried to be prepared.

[Braegan]

Agreed. But why does the heal burden fall to the cleric and not the wiz/sorcs?

Seems like a double standard. Why not grief the mages who dont carry repair spells?

Cant agree with this. If you are an arcane caster that is not WF there is no reason for you to have repair spells. (My sorc does carry reconstruct scrolls for those times when needed) - But no way can I expect an arcane who is not WF to repair the inferior race :p (somewhat kidding...ok I'm not WF suck :p)

[shenthing]

Cant agree with this. If you are an arcane caster that is not WF there is no reason for you to have repair spells. (My sorc does carry reconstruct scrolls for those times when needed) - But no way can I expect an arcane who is not WF to repair the inferior race :p (somewhat kidding...ok I'm not WF suck :p)

Must agree with this. Unless you are planning to party with mostly WF or are one yourself, you shouldn't be expected to carry reconstruct. Now, if the current quest is light on your spell selection and mana, I see no reason you shouldn't trade it in for something not being used (Wizards that is).

[Fenrisulven6]

Unless you are planning to party with mostly WF or are one yourself, you shouldn't be expected to carry reconstruct.

By that logic, Clerics shouldn't be expected to use CW on WF.

Hell, even my rogue UMDs repair wands.

First stop for WF repairs should be the mage, not the cleric.

[Kalari]

I think if your a member of any party and have the spell room you should carry a repair spell or reconstruct. Its not right to expect the clerics to heal because they have heal spells but not expect an arcane who can cast a repair not to. Thats such a blatant double standard. Sure it benefits a wf arcane more (obviously) to carry their own repair reconstruct. But anyone who claims to be a team member who will whine if a cleric does not heal them but can in another breath say "well I can cast a repair or reconstruct but why should I im not a wf" is just as bad as a non self sufficient type to me. Why bother joining a group if your not going to try to help out in anyway you can? Sure a sorc who dont plan for it may not carry the spells but if a forge hands you a wand or a few scrolls it be nice if you helped out. And many do carry at least one spell (reconstruct) even with their spell limitations especially if they raid.

I just love the whole theres no I in team unless its something I dont feel like doing then I dont have to. If a cleric has to heal because they have the spells I think a arcane should repair we have the spells in our pools. And before anyone says it any wf that has run with my arcanes (be them fleshy or forge casters) knows I repair at any level.

[OTSmithers]

I came to the warforged forums looking for exactly this subject. Not because I am a warforged wondering why my Cleric won't heal me, but because I am a Cleric wondering how in the hell I am supposed to heal Warforged. So far this thread has been useful, if only in confirming that I am not alone -- either in my problem or the solution I have largely reached.

I have been playing MMO's basically as long as MMO's have been around, and going clean back to the days of old UO. My preferred class has always been a healer. I am pretty **** good at it. I assume that the people posting in this thread are equally good at playing their characters.

You are not the problem.

If you have ever played a healer in an MMO you are familiar with something I like to call Healer Psychosis. That's what happens to normally rational, skilled, and careful players the second a healer joins their party. Missions that they were struggling to do on normal, in their minds, are suddenly possible on elite. Nor do they need to use caution or stick together or even turn on the freaking brains. Nope, they've got a healer, and that's a license to be stupid.

They've got potions of course. The game is nice enough to give them to you for free. But they are saving those for when they don't have a healer and have to be careful. Nor do they even want to pause for the ten-freaking-seconds it takes for the healer to throw some buffs their way. No sir. If they bother to gather at all, they pause for one buff and sprint for the next cluster of mobs. Or more often they scatter like roaches exposed to sunlight, heading in five different directions and five different groups of mobs. That's the all too common norm.

And I include the people who play WF's in this group. Repair pots? They've never heard of them. It's not THEIR job to keep themselves upright. Their job is to test their freaking armor by jumping into the god-damned blade trap. Twice.

I am a level six healer and I am **** good at it. But I am going broke buying wands of cure moderate wounds at 5.4K gp each just so I can keep the **** WF's alive. The minute a WF melee joins the group I know that I will now lose money on the mission. And frankly I am getting a bit tired of it. My level six fighter carries twenty to thirty cure mod pots at all times. And I **** sure drink them. Constantly. WF's can **** sure do the same.

And yes, count me among the Clerics that really don't want to group with you anymore.

/rant.

[Fattiest]

I came to the warforged forums looking for exactly this subject. Not because I am a warforged wondering why my Cleric won't heal me, but because I am a Cleric wondering how in the hell I am supposed to heal Warforged. So far this thread has been useful, if only in confirming that I am not alone -- either in my problem or the solution I have largely reached.

I have been playing MMO's basically as long as MMO's have been around, and going clean back to the days of old UO. My preferred class has always been a healer. I am pretty **** good at it. I assume that the people posting in this thread are equally good at playing their characters.

You are not the problem.

If you have ever played a healer in an MMO you are familiar with something I like to call Healer Psychosis. That's what happens to normally rational, skilled, and careful players the second a healer joins their party. Missions that they were struggling to do on normal, in their minds, are suddenly possible on elite. Nor do they need to use caution or stick together or even turn on the freaking brains. Nope, they've got a healer, and that's a license to be stupid.

They've got potions of course. The game is nice enough to give them to you for free. But they are saving those for when they don't have a healer and have to be careful. Nor do they even want to pause for the ten-freaking-seconds it takes for the healer to throw some buffs their way. No sir. If they bother to gather at all, they pause for one buff and sprint for the next cluster of mobs. Or more often they scatter like roaches exposed to sunlight, heading in five different directions and five different groups of mobs. That's the all too common norm.

And I include the people who play WF's in this group. Repair pots? They've never heard of them. It's not THEIR job to keep themselves upright. Their job is to test their freaking armor by jumping into the god-damned blade trap. Twice.

I am a level six healer and I am **** good at it. But I am going broke buying wands of cure moderate wounds at 5.4K gp each just so I can keep the **** WF's alive. The minute a WF melee joins the group I know that I will now lose money on the mission. And frankly I am getting a bit tired of it. My level six fighter carries twenty to thirty cure mod pots at all times. And I **** sure drink them. Constantly. WF's can **** sure do the same.

And yes, count me among the Clerics that really don't want to group with you anymore.

/rant.

having played other MMO's you should understand the lower levs work, you will run into alot of poorly played toons, WF and other. once you get to the higher levs the Noobs that give WF bad reps will slowly fall away with the other trash players.

any good WF will carry pots and scrolls/wands to give to the caster and carry at least one lev of healers friend. it seems as though you have ran into many bad noobs trying to play the WF race.

The best advice i can give to a newer player as yourself is this: Dont Heal Stupid

[OTSmithers]

having played other MMO's you should understand the lower levs work, you will run into alot of poorly played toons, WF and other. once you get to the higher levs the Noobs that give WF bad reps will slowly fall away with the other trash players.

any good WF will carry pots and scrolls/wands to give to the caster and carry at least one lev of healers friend. it seems as though you have ran into many bad noobs trying to play the WF race.

The best advice i can give to a newer player as yourself is this: Dont Heal Stupid

A Cleric's job is no different than anyone else's job -- using our abilities to complete the mission. Stupid or not, WF or not, as a Cleric I am going to do what I can to see this happen. I believe that this is everyone's role. Or, rather, it should be. Most people who elect to play a Cleric do so knowing that they will have a responsibility to their group. Most Clerics take this seriously. In their mind, every time a group-mate dies, they failed at their job. It doesn't matter how brilliantly they performed, fingers flying on their keyboards like a concert pianist, monitoring everything from healthbars to positioning and even the mage's mana, the measure in their mind-- and in the mind's of the group -- is who lived and who died. That's how MOST dedicated healers are, that's how they play, that's the challenge they accepted when they made the toon. They know that they are accepting the toughest job in the game, and one that rarely gets noticed when it goes well and the first thing criticized when anything goes wrong.

Many MMO players take advantage of this. They behave in a way that suggests that, because there is someone there who is taking it seriously, they no longer need to. In DDO they have the Cleric -- he's responsible, so they don't have to be.

You can see that even in this thread. No WF seemingly expects the Wizard and Sorcerer to heal them. Hell no. Sure, they have the spells and sp to actually do it, but you cannot ask a mage to support the group by, god forbid, healing. Supporting the group is the Cleric's job. Apparently many WF don't even feel as though they have an obligation to take feats and enhancements to help the Cleric out or guzzle the occassional repair potion to relieve some of the strain. And when the Cleric finally says, "You know, this would be soo much easier if I didn't have Turbo Tonka draining three-quarters of my mojo!" suddenly he is the bad guy.

[Kalari]

Snipped Most Clerics take this seriously. In their mind, every time a group-mate dies, they failed at their job. *Snipped*

See what Fattiest was trying to explain to you yet you confirmed for me alone with that post is "you are a heal bot." whether you want to admit it or not.

Clerics may have the ability to heal, but if the developers only wanted us to do so we would not have crowd control and killing spells.

Point blank stupid play is not a fleshie or wf issue and if your having trouble healing a wf ask "hey do you have any healers friend." If they do they are at least making an effort for your healing to help them. IF they dont dont worry about them any good player knows they need to do their part to make a run go smooth.

But the attitude your showing here is exactly what many of us who enjoy playing healers do not want to promote. We are not there to just heal, and I sure as hell dont feel bad if someone dies due to their own carelessness. If its something I caused which is rare but lets say I pulled aggro of too many mobs with a searing light or blade barrier didnt quite pack a punch and the party suffered then yes its my fault.

But someone dying? im going with its that players fault. We need to stop saying "theres no I in team" if we really dont mean that. And many posters here will be the same who say "keep with the group and dont zerg pen and paper team mentality speak" yet will in another breath say they wont help another party member out because of their player race type. That to me is sad, but if its how you wish to run fine.

The rest of us will heal forges because anyone joining my party is there to succeed, if they are not then and only then will they be ignored by me. I dont heal stupid period.

[AylinIsAwesome]

By that logic, Clerics shouldn't be expected to use CW on WF.

Hell, even my rogue UMDs repair wands.

First stop for WF repairs should be the mage, not the cleric.

Please explain that to me. Seeing as how Sorcerers will only have three level six spells at level 20, and if they don't party with Warforged a lot it's a worthless spell most of the time, that could have been Disintegrate, or Chain Lightning/Otiluke's Freezing Sphere or Flesh to Stone... So please explain to me why I should drop one of those spells on my human Sorcerer for the times where I'll need to heal Warforged. Especially since Warforged can be healed by both Arcane and Divine spells, and no other race gets any benefit from Repair spells.

Using wands and scrolls, I can understand. I do this. But telling me I should drop one of my level 6 spells (which are very useful) for a spell that won't even see use in every quest...




I came to the warforged forums looking for exactly this subject. Not because I am a warforged wondering why my Cleric won't heal me, but because I am a Cleric wondering how in the hell I am supposed to heal Warforged. So far this thread has been useful, if only in confirming that I am not alone -- either in my problem or the solution I have largely reached.

I have been playing MMO's basically as long as MMO's have been around, and going clean back to the days of old UO. My preferred class has always been a healer. I am pretty **** good at it. I assume that the people posting in this thread are equally good at playing their characters.

You are not the problem.

If you have ever played a healer in an MMO you are familiar with something I like to call Healer Psychosis. That's what happens to normally rational, skilled, and careful players the second a healer joins their party. Missions that they were struggling to do on normal, in their minds, are suddenly possible on elite. Nor do they need to use caution or stick together or even turn on the freaking brains. Nope, they've got a healer, and that's a license to be stupid.

They've got potions of course. The game is nice enough to give them to you for free. But they are saving those for when they don't have a healer and have to be careful. Nor do they even want to pause for the ten-freaking-seconds it takes for the healer to throw some buffs their way. No sir. If they bother to gather at all, they pause for one buff and sprint for the next cluster of mobs. Or more often they scatter like roaches exposed to sunlight, heading in five different directions and five different groups of mobs. That's the all too common norm.

And I include the people who play WF's in this group. Repair pots? They've never heard of them. It's not THEIR job to keep themselves upright. Their job is to test their freaking armor by jumping into the god-damned blade trap. Twice.

I am a level six healer and I am **** good at it. But I am going broke buying wands of cure moderate wounds at 5.4K gp each just so I can keep the **** WF's alive. The minute a WF melee joins the group I know that I will now lose money on the mission. And frankly I am getting a bit tired of it. My level six fighter carries twenty to thirty cure mod pots at all times. And I **** sure drink them. Constantly. WF's can **** sure do the same.

And yes, count me among the Clerics that really don't want to group with you anymore.

/rant.


Ok, you're level 6. When you get to level 11, you get a spell called "Heal". Even if the Warforged in question hasn't taken any Healer's Friend (which most people who can actually play will have level 1 or more) and have no healing amplification items, and you've not put any points into your cure spells (but since you sound like a healbot you probably have) you'll heal Warforged a guaranteed 55 HP every Heal. But I'm betting you'll have Cleric Life Magic 4, so really that's 77 HP. And if the WF can actually play, they have Healer's Friend 1, so really it's 100 HP. When you're level 15, you'll heal them 136 HP every time. And if you've taken Empower Healing (because you're a healbot and Clerics get enhancements from that it makes sense that you'd grab it), that's 204 HP per cast for 41 mana. You should have over 1000 SP at this point, from leveling and items, so healing Warforged won't really be as big a deal to you as you make it out to be.

It's only at the lower levels that healing Warforged is an issue (low level healing spells, not as many +healing enhancements for you or them and that's where all the stupid players are).




You can see that even in this thread. No WF seemingly expects the Wizard and Sorcerer to heal them. Hell no. Sure, they have the spells and sp to actually do it, but you cannot ask a mage to support the group by, god forbid, healing. Supporting the group is the Cleric's job. Apparently many WF don't even feel as though they have an obligation to take feats and enhancements to help the Cleric out or guzzle the occassional repair potion to relieve some of the strain. And when the Cleric finally says, "You know, this would be soo much easier if I didn't have Turbo Tonka draining three-quarters of my mojo!" suddenly he is the bad guy.

Often times in high level groups, if there's both an Arcane and a Warforged, then the Arcane will help healing the Warforged. If it's a wizard, probably through Reconstruct, but if it's a Sorc that's not a Warforged, they have absolutely no reason to take Reconstruct. Their job is to kill stuff, and many good killing spells are in the same level. Expect them to use only scrolls or wands.


Also, stop blaming the entire Warforged player base for the actions of a few stupid players. If you grouped with several rangers that decided jumping into spike traps so you could heal them was fun, or that they wanted to aggro an entire room by themselves (almost getting themselves killed, if they even live), would you blame every person who plays a Ranger for that? Or would you recognize that it's due to them being stupid that they get themselves into trouble?

Now after you answer that, think again to Warforged. Do you think that the stupid players who were using Warforged were bad because they were Warforged, or because they're just bad players, regardless of race or class?

[OTSmithers]

See what Fattiest was trying to explain to you yet you confirmed for me alone with that post is "you are a heal bot." whether you want to admit it or not.

Clerics may have the ability to heal, but if the developers only wanted us to do so we would not have crowd control and killing spells.

Point blank stupid play is not a fleshie or wf issue and if your having trouble healing a wf ask "hey do you have any healers friend." If they do they are at least making an effort for your healing to help them. IF they dont dont worry about them any good player knows they need to do their part to make a run go smooth.

But the attitude your showing here is exactly what many of us who enjoy playing healers do not want to promote. We are not there to just heal, and I sure as hell dont feel bad if someone dies due to their own carelessness. If its something I caused which is rare but lets say I pulled aggro of too many mobs with a searing light or blade barrier didnt quite pack a punch and the party suffered then yes its my fault.

But someone dying? im going with its that players fault. We need to stop saying "theres no I in team" if we really dont mean that. And many posters here will be the same who say "keep with the group and dont zerg pen and paper team mentality speak" yet will in another breath say they wont help another party member out because of their player race type. That to me is sad, but if its how you wish to run fine.

The rest of us will heal forges because anyone joining my party is there to succeed, if they are not then and only then will they be ignored by me. I dont heal stupid period.

Healing is an important part of what the Cleric brings to the table. Buffs, debuffs, and crowd control are also important of course, but replaceable. CC, buffs, debuffs, all can be done by other classes -- and perhaps better -- but no class will outheal a cleric. Calling me a "healbot" -- as an insult -- is nothing more than an effort to diminish one of the most vital functions and skills of a Cleric player. Yes, I heal.

But with that in mind kindly stipulate that if I can watch a half dozen life bars while machinegunning through wands and a few bars full of spells and clickies, and still manage to keep track of everyone else's mana and what's going on around me, that I can probably manage to remember to throw a buff once every ten minutes or every time I shrine -- whichever comes first. I know, hard to imagine, but it's true. And I even buff and debuff and crowd control. But while I do all that, and understand it's importance, I am first and always a healer.

[OTSmithers]

Also, stop blaming the entire Warforged player base for the actions of a few stupid players. If you grouped with several rangers that decided jumping into spike traps so you could heal them was fun, or that they wanted to aggro an entire room by themselves (almost getting themselves killed, if they even live), would you blame every person who plays a Ranger for that? Or would you recognize that it's due to them being stupid that they get themselves into trouble?

Now after you answer that, think again to Warforged. Do you think that the stupid players who were using Warforged were bad because they were Warforged, or because they're just bad players, regardless of race or class?

Fair enough. I **** sure don't judge all Clerics based on the ones I have been stuck grouping with on my alt (two of the last four apparently did not know that they had healing spells), so I probably shouldn't judge WF's that way either.

[Fenrisulven6]

So please explain to me why I should drop one of those spells on my human Sorcerer for the times where I'll need to heal Warforged.

Kalari said it better than I can:

"I think if you're a member of any party and have the spell room you should carry a repair spell or reconstruct.

Its not right to expect the clerics to heal because they have heal spells but not expect an arcane who can cast a repair not to. Thats such a blatant double standard. ..anyone who claims to be a team member who will whine if a cleric does not heal them but can in another breath say "well I can cast a repair or reconstruct but why should I im not a wf" is just as bad as a non self sufficient type to me."

[Danmor]

Well, on a non-WF sorcerer I'd understand not having reconstruct in their spell list. But it'd sure be nice to have some Reconstruct scrolls around for when things get hairy.

But as has been said many times before in this thread: This is only an issue at low to mid-levels. Once people start raiding most will have enough resources available to buy reconstruct scrolls and will maybe even do so in certain quests that are known to be hard.

Also, when I'm on my capped cleric in a raid I do not care about the race of the character. If all melees are beating up Harry I do not worry about who's WF and who's not. I simply fire empowered mass cures interspersed with spot heals at the melees. If you took some of the healing enhancements your empowered heals will be powerful enough to fully heal a WF or a fleshie - usually.

So in conclusion: If your cleric/FvS is whining about the cost of healing you, give the arcane a couple of scrolls and wands and be done with it. Just wait for end-game content where this kind of complaining will stop.

[Khayvan]

Fair enough. I **** sure don't judge all Clerics based on the ones I have been stuck grouping with on my alt (two of the last four apparently did not know that they had healing spells), so I probably shouldn't judge WF's that way either.

No you shouldn't. Your problem isn't really with WF, it's with bad players. It's just being compounded by the fact that those bad players are running a WF.

A good WF player will save you mana through their immunities, and by being able to be healed by more classes than any other. And a good party will save you mana through everyone doing their part and not relying on the healers to fix their "mistakes" and carry them through the quest.

Also, one thing you may need to keep in mind: if one character is being an unreasonable drain on party resources, then it may be better to let him die. Tough love and all that. The player may get mad but maybe he'll have time to think about what he's doing while riding in your backpack. Or he'll leave the group, in which case you're still better off.

[Judo]

mmmmm, relationssss

giggity

[Khayvan]

Kalari said it better than I can:

"I think if you're a member of any party and have the spell room you should carry a repair spell or reconstruct.

Its not right to expect the clerics to heal because they have heal spells but not expect an arcane who can cast a repair not to. Thats such a blatant double standard. ..anyone who claims to be a team member who will whine if a cleric does not heal them but can in another breath say "well I can cast a repair or reconstruct but why should I im not a wf" is just as bad as a non self sufficient type to me."

I can agree with this as far as wizards go, but not so much for sorcerers. To me, it feels selfish on my part to ask them to spend one of their limited slots on a spell that benefits them only when I'm around. Heck, one of my regular running buddies is a sorc and I've never asked him to learn a repair spell. But I do keep him supplied in repair wands. I consider keeping a couple wands on hand to pass out to arcanes as important to my self-sufficiency as carrying my own oils.

[Kalari]

I can agree with this as far as wizards go, but not so much for sorcerers. To me, it feels selfish on my part to ask them to spend one of their limited slots on a spell that benefits them only when I'm around. Heck, one of my regular running buddies is a sorc and I've never asked him to learn a repair spell. But I do keep him supplied in repair wands. I consider keeping a couple wands on hand to pass out to arcanes as important to my self-sufficiency as carrying my own oils.

Thats why I put extra room but its really not that hard for a sorceror to help out with wands and scrolls as well. Though I guess because I have gotten so much help from many wf players raising up my first character (Kalari my wizard) I just appreciate what they bring to battle more. I even have a human sorceror who has dragon marks to help repair forges it has worked out great for raids. Im in a solid guild where a build like that can be appreciated and if artificers ever see the light of day she would be reincarnated into one.

sure my playstyle isnt for everyone but if you have the ability and room to help your warforge team mates out why not do so? I just dont think its right that people assume the clerics are the only healer types in a group. Forges can be repaired if your wizard cannot forgo one lousy spell slot for one repair spell then they are not worth being on your team IMO. As to what I said before I will heal anyone on my team as long as they are working together towards our success if they act stupid are a mana drain they make better soul stones in my book.

And thanks Fen I honestly cant stand that double standard it drives me up a wall.

[jasonchrist]

Coming from a pen and paper background, I think it is best interest to keep everyone in the party alive; race shouldn't be an issue. Prioritize decisions in order to keep the party alive; when forced into a chain healing situation or dealing with lack of resources, warforged characters won't mind being healed last or falling back.

[Fenrisulven6]

I can agree with this as far as wizards go, but not so much for sorcerers. To me, it feels selfish on my part to ask them to spend one of their limited slots on a spell that benefits them only when I'm around

Well, I recently made that same argument - that I shouldn't be expected to carry Haste on my 6th lvl Sorc. I lost.


Acutally Khayvan, you prob would have been one of those people to defend me, with something akin to: "screw them, take whatever spell you want"

I guess the problem is more about the people who 1) insist I carry Haste as my only 3rd lvl slot, but 2) refuse to carry repairs for one of theirs.

[Delt]

Healers Friend is for sissies. Probably the only point it matters is for something like ToD, if you plan to be tanking in random groups...so I don't see a big reason to waste APs before that. But then again, every warforged I build has some degree of self healing.

That said, I met my first "cleric" in a long time that "didn't heal warforged" (even said so in his bio!) in a BAM elite PUG just the other day. He was a poor healer and many fleshies died that day. I think warforged highlight the deficiencies in poorly played healers (over healing, poor gear, newbie, etc), so to a certain degree, I understand the bias.

[Khayvan]

Acutally Khayvan, you prob would have been one of those people to defend me, with something akin to: "screw them, take whatever spell you want"


More than likely I would have been. I very much believe in people playing their characters how they want, I don't want anyone telling me how to play mine so why would I force my views on others?

My sorc buddy hasn't learned Haste yet and he's almost 9th level. Actually, I don't think he's learned a single spell that doesn't directly hurt the bad guys. But that's what's fun to him so more power to him. We're doing fine and having a good time. If he never learns Haste... oh well. Likewise, if he never picks up a repair spell... oh well.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Kalari said it better than I can:

"I think if you're a member of any party and have the spell room you should carry a repair spell or reconstruct.

Its not right to expect the clerics to heal because they have heal spells but not expect an arcane who can cast a repair not to. Thats such a blatant double standard. ..anyone who claims to be a team member who will whine if a cleric does not heal them but can in another breath say "well I can cast a repair or reconstruct but why should I im not a wf" is just as bad as a non self sufficient type to me."

My sorc will only have three level 6 spell slots. If I had more, I'd more than likely take it. But as it is, I won't have enough spells.

Now, does that mean I won't heal Warforged at all? NO.

I said I won't take the Reconstruct spell. I plan to carry both wands or repair and scrolls of Reconstruct when I get to higher levels with her (she's still new - less than two weeks old), and I carry wands of Repair Light and Moderate damage. So far, you've still not made a valid case as to why I should drop one of my planned level 6 spells for Reconstruct. So why should I?

[The_Metal_Monster]

Some clerics just hate us :( , get over it ;)

[Khayvan]

I said I won't take the Reconstruct spell. I plan to carry both wands or repair and scrolls of Reconstruct when I get to higher levels with her (she's still new - less than two weeks old), and I carry wands of Repair Light and Moderate damage. So far, you've still not made a valid case as to why I should drop one of my planned level 6 spells for Reconstruct. So why should I?

You should if you always run with a WF party member, and keeping said WF standing is more beneficial to the party than whatever spell you would take instead. If you PuG a lot I don't see it being worth the slot, if you're going to use scrolls/wands as needed. I myself wouldn't ask more than that from you.

[Danmor]

Fleshy sorcerers and wizards shouldn't be expected to carry reconstruct, after all they can't use it on themselves.
So I think the clerics should stop carrying raise dead/resurrect/true resurrect, because they can't use it on themselves after all...

[cdemeritt]

Had a Warfrog in group who was bragging about how he could not get crit hit, etc. and watched the poor cleric go DRY trying to keep him alive.

A War Frog !? When did we get those, and how much favor is needed to unlock them?

[Khayvan]

Fleshy sorcerers and wizards shouldn't be expected to carry reconstruct, after all they can't use it on themselves.
So I think the clerics should stop carrying raise dead/resurrect/true resurrect, because they can't use it on themselves after all...


IMO:

Any cleric who gives a **** about the other party members will carry those spells because they are always useful to the party.

Since the wizard is such a great toolbox, any wizards should learn the spell and be expected to use it when it benefits the party.

Sorcs are the ones with the real decision to make with their limited spell slots. By that level they should be able to judge for themselves what spell is going to benefit them the most. I do, however, expect them to use scrolls and wands to relieve some of the burden from the cleric. To me that's just good teamwork.

Is this point of view really so alien? :confused:

[AylinIsAwesome]

You should if you always run with a WF party member, and keeping said WF standing is more beneficial to the party than whatever spell you would take instead. If you PuG a lot I don't see it being worth the slot, if you're going to use scrolls/wands as needed. I myself wouldn't ask more than that from you.

Most of my guild is fleshy (only a few people have Warforged, and most of those are rarely played alts). I mostly just PuG even then.


Now if I did run with a Warforged guildie almost constantly, I'd probably pick up Reconstruct asap, since keeping my (near-static) teammate up would provide a nice "meat shield" for me, so I could throw out more disintegrates with less trouble.

But I don't, which is why I use scrolls and wands instead.

[Danmor]

it was irony, not sarcasm...
I do think that casters that can arbitrarily change their spells should be able to switch in spells that heal WF. If you can't switch out spells any time you like, it's a completely different thing.

But arguing "I don't prepare that spell because it doesn't benefit me" is kind of ridiculous. I made above post to highlight that

[Krawn]

I've recently been playing warforged monks. They normally take all of Monk improved recovery and a level or 2 of healers friend. This puts me up to 75-90% divine healing. (possibility of 105% divine healing if I took all levels of healers friend)

I mention this at the beginning of groups... I still find that most clerics ONLY hit me with divine healing. To top that off they hit me with it at the worst of times, when I'm low on HP and full of Ki. Divine healing overwrites and/or blocks Wholeness of body !

On my 90% monk I've had clerics let me set at 10% health forever...

Oh well. Clerics just see Warforged and use it as an excuse to whine and whine and not heal.

[DANTEIL]

My solution as a Wizard is to accumulate various Repair Critical/Repair Serious wands and try to act as a secondary healer whenever I group with a Warforged. Since I don't have a regular group that includes WF, I have never seen the need to pick up Reconstruct or Mass Repair etc. However, that being said, if I were asked to change out spells at a shrine because of some particular situation, then in all likelihood I would be willing to do that. It's just never happened yet.

[Khayvan]

it was irony, not sarcasm...


Yeah, I get you. :)

It's just that the whole "I don't heal WF" thing baffles my mind. The clerics I run with, even at low levels, have no problems keeping me healed and having plenty of mana to keep everybody else healed and pass out buffs and toss the occasional offensive spell.

Just last night, I was scanning the bio of a 14th level cleric and it said right there "WF bring your own healing. I'm not wasting my entire mana bar because you made a @#$% toon." I mean... seriously?

[cdemeritt]

but no class will outheal a cleric.

Actually, a healing specc'd Favor Soul probably will. (haven't played one yet, but...)Sorry, a nitpick, but....


Calling me a "healbot" -- as an insult -- is nothing more than an effort to diminish one of the most vital functions and skills of a Cleric player. Yes, I heal.


Calling anyone a Healbot is not an insult, no more than calling a bard a spellsinger or warchanter is an insult. It's the description of your path. I have a healbot cleric and a battle cleric... They are each fun in their own way, but not the same... However, both will heal * ANY party member who is in trouble. However, if the WF arcane can't be bothered to help themselves, I get annoyed much like I do with a bard/rogue/ranger/FvS/ or other class that is capable to heal themselves some, and wont. Don't mind healing or keeping people alive during a fight, but at least top yourselves off.

[DnD3]

As a wf barb I have to deal with a lot of nub ass clerics(level 10 now and first wf toon), apparently I'm not worth healing because they loose 25% healing on me, I mean im not unreasonable, if other party members are in trouble then they heal them that's ok, I understand the human fighter having more priority on healing when we both are dying. I do love it when I see them whine when they die and demand that I help them...(Really If im 15 hp left and can't lift a finger to heal me with the almost a full bar don't expect me to die for you=/)

[MystDragon]

See what Fattiest was trying to explain to you yet you confirmed for me alone with that post is "you are a heal bot." whether you want to admit it or not.

Clerics may have the ability to heal, but if the developers only wanted us to do so we would not have crowd control and killing spells.

Point blank stupid play is not a fleshie or wf issue and if your having trouble healing a wf ask "hey do you have any healers friend." If they do they are at least making an effort for your healing to help them. IF they dont dont worry about them any good player knows they need to do their part to make a run go smooth.

But the attitude your showing here is exactly what many of us who enjoy playing healers do not want to promote. We are not there to just heal, and I sure as hell dont feel bad if someone dies due to their own carelessness. If its something I caused which is rare but lets say I pulled aggro of too many mobs with a searing light or blade barrier didnt quite pack a punch and the party suffered then yes its my fault.

But someone dying? im going with its that players fault. We need to stop saying "theres no I in team" if we really dont mean that. And many posters here will be the same who say "keep with the group and dont zerg pen and paper team mentality speak" yet will in another breath say they wont help another party member out because of their player race type. That to me is sad, but if its how you wish to run fine.

The rest of us will heal forges because anyone joining my party is there to succeed, if they are not then and only then will they be ignored by me. I dont heal stupid period.

This was really well-worded - +1.

When I'm playing my cleric, I use the party bar to monitor player's health as it's the easiest way for me. I don't stand there wasting time going "What race is this guy? Is this the WF?" I don't have the most uber-decked healing items in the game (yet :)) and I have never had a problem keeping WF on their feet in comparison with other races. This is especially true if the cleric has Unyielding Sovereignty. The only times it can even be considered an issue to me is really low levels where it simply takes more castings.

On higher levels - I don't have to worry about nuetralizing their poison, removing disease, or casting waterbreathing on them either. And Heal works well on them, just for a few less points. To me it's just one more thing to complain about.

On the other side of the fence:

On my WF Barbarian - I always carry repair pots and it's a bit of an expense - but I consider self healing of every type a mandate for all of my characters. I also carry repair wands as well. I can't use them - but I can give them to those who can and ask them to please use them to top me off. It's really not difficult.

[Anderei]

I have much more a problem with wizard-fvs relation.

Was in a party in which both wizards refused to stock a repair spell to help to keep that WF-Barb alive in Whisperdooms, since "healing is your task FvS-boy"

[Khayvan]

Was in a party in which both wizards refused to stock a repair spell to help to keep that WF-Barb alive in Whisperdooms, since "healing is your task FvS-boy"

That seems very ignorant on the part of the wizards. If there's even a chance they may be in a PuG then they should learn a repair spell and use it when needed. If somebody isn't going to take advantage of the versatility of a wizard, why roll one in the first place?

Did you try to offer them wands to use on you?

[hermespan]

Start of Rant: I am fed up.

I play a WF THF Fighter currently and I am sick of certain (not all, or even most) Clerics telling me that they wont heal me because I burn up to much of *their* Mana.

With healers friend enhancements you end up with a very small penalty. It's barely noticeable. Take these enhancements and when a cleric gives you this reason tell him you have healer's friend which negates the penalty.

If he doesn't believe you tell him to try it before you step into the quest.

[phalaeo]

I responded to this thread before, but with a little more experience under my belt, here is my standing opinion.

Warforged-
Take at least one tier of Healer's Friend.
Be prepared to carry pots/be self-repairing
Communicate with the healer and let them know if you are self-repairing.

Clerics-
Heal WF when they are in combat
Ask when you join the party if the WF is self-repairing
Understand that when parties put up an LFM for a Cleric, they are generally looking for a healer. What you do from there is your choice.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

i burned 50+ heal scrolls and 2 shop pots healing a warforged tank in vod fully specced in healing. how many did the other cleric use? who knows... there was also a wiz that helped. you can supply those thanks.

any other tank could have tanked it fine... it didn't have to be a warforged and i would have saved a large amount of coin. that could be said about every other dungeon in the game... they arn't required for anything and any other race can replace them with no down side

i can protect myself just fine thanks... or if you must insist... any other class can protect me just fine and use less resources

any immunity you think is crucial can be bestowed/cured by a cleric spell,equip, or even a clickie so what were you bringing to the group again?

if you want to play warforged then play a sorc/cleric/fvs/wiz and heal yourself... you are not bringing anything to the group if you are draining excessive sp and the group is better off without you.

i dont mind tossing the above mentioned combos heals in the heat of battle considering they always heal themselves inbetween fights

if you drain my sp then afaik you can leave the group so a more efficient fleshie can join

Hater.

Anyway, what I'm seeing here on the thread is people complaining about PuG Clerics not wanting to heal WF and PuG WF burning all of the CLeric's resources. The real problem here isn't the WF OR the Cleric, but rather the fact that you're playing with PuGs. NO WONDER YOU'RE HAVING A TOUGH TIME! Of course, I may be biased against PuGs as I've had some absolutely terrible luck with PuGs for the past few weeks.

Anyway, I digress. Find yourself a good guild or group of friends you can trust. See that they have your back and you have theirs. Of course you won't always be able to group with them, but when you can't just run some lower things you know you can handle that way the healer doesn't burn all of his or her blue goodness.

So, to the WF: Like everyone says, be self sufficient. Buy wands and pots or play a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Paladin to gain access to healing. Or befriend one of the aforementioned classes (or a Rogue Mechanic).

To the Healers: Don't be a jerk and heal everyone, provided of course they pull their weight. Today I was told by a Cleric that I was burning up their SP quite fast, but they still continued to heal me. So next time I play I'm going to go out of my way to purchase Repair Wands, Pots, and if I loot SP Elixirs, they will go straight to the Clerics.

DDO's a team game, love it or hate.

[ertlif]

/whiner on
dude, it's always the same, someone slips or commits a mistake and everyone is very rude at him
"you clearly don't understand the game"
"you don't know what you are talking about"
etc etc
SAVE THOSE COMMENTS, plz, be nicer, for Pelor!
/whiner off

Yeah well, WF are hard to heal sometimes, i realized that the only mana efficient way i have to heal droids up is wait for them to be at 25% hp and cast heal on them. Any other way costs me a hell lot more of mana.

I am no veteran, i just got my first cleric char to 19 and i'm experiencing what i call "the high hp phase", where any dude surrounding me in a group goes beyond 400hp and need some serious lvl healing spells. I gotta say WFs are awesome in many ways, and yeah.. it's true, by not getting poisoned and stuff they sorta save me some mana, but when it comes to healing them... boy, i sure think twice before casting!

I hate seeing half-full bars on my group, but i know that for each WF heal i perform, the rest of the group looses a couple of spells from me. I'll never watch a WF die if i have any sp left, but i also like self healing WF.

Anyways, in my humble opinion, i think that clerics are meant for healing, and that includes everyone, the only thing i ask from WFs is to bring some self-healing on to lighten up the cleric's burden a bit.

[rezo]

Remember in Eberron, casters are the ones who heal/ repair warforged that's why they have the spells. So don't blame the clerics blame the caster " I'm not set up to heal/ repair warforgeds. I'm a nuker." lol. As I have clerics too I don't mind healing them.

[Lorz]

Excellent, we see it the same. WF should party with WF and only WF. The races (i.e. fleshies) shall party with other living races (again, i.e. fleshies). Works for me.

The problem is my WF sorc is always having to rez and carry you fleshies....i really wish you were more durable. But alas your just squishies who cannot take the heat of the agro you try to get and i am constantly having to save you. Why i cannot tell you the perverse pleasure i take in rezing a dead fleshy cleric. I chuckle deep within my heartless casing....at you and your pitiful race.


Oh...and i dont need your healing..i can heal myself and i can even heal you. Why again are you needed little fleshy at all?