Melee + BB + Heal = Done

[Draccus]

I'm looking for general feedback on what I think is a fairly common FvS build. I'm looking to do three basic things:

1. Good Melee damage (not great, just good). TWF and high Str should be enough.
2. Good Blade Barrier damage, duration, and frequency
3. Good self healing

That's it! I'm not looking for no-fail Greater Teleport UMD or Horoth-tanking AC. Just melee, BB, and heal.

I don't need detailed builds. I have some friends who can help me with the details, I'm just looking for a general direction. Pure FvS? FvS/Monk? FvS/Fighter?

My first thought was Pure FvS, Elf, Longsword user for the capstone. Would a monk or fighter splash be more beneficial?

What stats to focus on? Strength+Wis? Strength+Cha? Str+balanced Wis/Cha?

[Visty]

stay pure for the dr10 and take the sov host as faith for unlimited heals

[Dylos_Moon]

for healing, all you're going to need is the spells.

for blade barrier, you're going to need some wisdom, and possibly heighten or spell focus feats, depending on what your end game wisdom will be.

for melee, specifically twf melee, you're going to actually need some dexterity to get the twf feats, as without them, you may be better off sword and board.

I would also recommend staying pure, both for the DR, and the capstone of cure light wounds for no sp cost every 6 seconds.

I'll note however, it is much easier for a cleric to be a decent melee, a healer, and an offensive caster all at once then it is for a favored soul. FvS is really better off picking one or two of these roles to excel in, rather then trying to be decent in all three. It's not impossible, and you should play however you want, but that's just my two cents.

[Varr]

Playing devils advocate.....a 20 pure vs a 18/2 fs/monk blade barrier and heal exactly the same minus the capstone cure light.

So for melée it is a decision between 10 dr vs better ac, evasion, and two more monk feats (I took toughness and power attack.)

Not sure the capstone is a big deal.....the dr vs is a discussion though to me. I had similar wants andchose 18/2.....at 12/2 now and I'm sure my break down is biased pro multi class......

As I've it listed though, looks to me like the better all around melée/bb/healer by a few freeing feats.....I have evasion and 10 dr about wash.....both excellent.

[Delt]

The "insert stupid forum name for generic builds people have thought of before you" build!!!

18/2 Human FVS/Monk

STR - 32 = 16(base)+5(level)+6(item)+4(tome)+1(Human)
DEX - 26 = 15(base)+6(item)+4(tome)+1(Human)
CON - 24 = 14(base)+6(item)+4(tome)
INT - 08 = 8(base)+2(tome)
WIS - 28 = 14(base)+6(item)+4(tome)+2(APs)+2(exc)
CHA - 20 = 10(base)+6(item)+2(tome)+2(APs)

Feats:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC - Slash (optional, add Kopeshes if you plan on min II's. Or sub in something else if sticking with longswords)
Extend
Empower
Maximize
Quicken
Toughness
Power Attack

HP: 500ish
SP: 2000ish

AC: plenty, depending on gear

Move your human stat APs around, depending on tome status or inclusion of ToD rings. The only thing thats a pain to deal with is stuff with SR, in which case you are plenty capable to beat it down.

That's my 2 cents at least.

[Varr]

Delts example nails it.....I'm drow and level ups in wis instead of str but all variations of flavor.......I can tell you at level ten bb feels lifetimes away thane to the two monk splash and ac is late to the game as far as rewarding bonus.....but the melée is good enough to engage as constructed. My drow is going to have to sacrifice greater two weapon, ic pierce (ss/rap), or quicken.....

Was going to be quicken but the bb take so long to caste greater two weapon might get the axe. I was disappinted when I rediscvered I could not take improved two weapon as a monk bonus and forced to settle on the power attack I had not initialy planned on.

[Draccus]

What about FvS/Fighter? I rarely see that combination and it's got the same feat advantage as a monk. Of course, it loses evasion and the AC bonus but it gains hit points and some good enhancements.

[Varr]

Let's see......I would say about +4 str +60 hp would maybe tempt some one to trade evasion and ac boost from wisdom. Weapon pro is of little use since fs is keyed to an auto weapon of choice anyway.

I would deff take evasion and ac boost over +4 str and +60 hps personally.....and the fighter perks are far less than that made up teaser bonus that might entice some.

[Impaqt]

Let's see......I would say about +4 str +60 hp would maybe tempt some one to trade evasion and ac boost from wisdom. Weapon pro is of little use since fs is keyed to an auto weapon of choice anyway.

I would deff take evasion and ac boost over +4 str and +60 hps personally.....and the fighter perks are far less than that made up teaser bonus that might entice some.

Actually, SInce FvS's have a TOughnes enhancment line I'm not seeing where the Hit points would come into play at all.. 4 more cause FIghters ger d10 instead of FvS D8 is all I see....

One of the big advantages to the FvS is martial Proficiency AND melee related enhancemtns to those specifdic weapons. Thats why you generally see Drow using Shortswords, Elfs using Scimmys and Humans using Longswords. THe exra feats from the fghter levels arent realy important unless your running a Melee focused build.

when ya think about it, what does the high STR and level up points in str REALLY get a Favored SOul? +3 to hit and damage? not very exciting for a class that can do 10 times more damage with a Blade barrier than they can dual weiling....

Even with a 10-14 base STR you can stil easlily get your to hit up into the +40 range with common buffs. thats more than enough to debuff a mob doewn so your blade barrier hits em even more effectively.

[Varr]

Those were my thoughts atcreation and my experiance so far as well my friend. Started 14 str level ups in wis and see where it goes. Pretty happy so far.

[Delt]

when ya think about it, what does the high STR and level up points in str REALLY get a Favored SOul? +3 to hit and damage? not very exciting for a class that can do 10 times more damage with a Blade barrier than they can dual weiling....

Even with a 10-14 base STR you can stil easlily get your to hit up into the +40 range with common buffs. thats more than enough to debuff a mob doewn so your blade barrier hits em even more effectively.

10x more damage? You haven't done melee DPS correctly if you think that - the GTWF line and the right weapons will probably out perform dancing in a BB with a coopertive single enemy, unless you are just comparing per hit damage numbers.

BB is great though, if I take my FVS in Sins or Genesis. If you go solo Invasion which will throw casters and evasion in the mix, it's less effective (hell, I don't even bother until level 3 or air eles).

Statwise, +3 DC to blade barrier is no more a game breaker than +3 tohit/dmg. The differences between FVS's comes down to feat selection and gear. Personally, I think both caster and melee FVS's have a place...in fact, I believe focus on casting is the optimal way to build and take advantage of FVS....but I already have a 450+ HP casting/healing cleric. I don't need another with a new icon and wings.

[Impaqt]

10x more damage? You haven't done melee DPS correctly if you think that - the GTWF line and the right weapons will probably out perform dancing in a BB with a coopertive single enemy, unless you are just comparing per hit damage numbers.

BB is great though, if I take my FVS in Sins or Genesis. If you go solo Invasion which will throw casters and evasion in the mix, it's less effective (hell, I don't even bother until level 3 or air eles).

Statwise, +3 DC to blade barrier is no more a game breaker than +3 tohit/dmg. The differences between FVS's comes down to feat selection and gear. Personally, I think both caster and melee FVS's have a place...in fact, I believe focus on casting is the optimal way to build and take advantage of FVS....but I already have a 450+ HP casting/healing cleric. I don't need another with a new icon and wings.



Yes, 10x More damage. and why limit yourself to Single enemies? How often do we fact single enemies in this game?

ANd yes, I have done Melee DPS Corectly.... We're talking about FvS's here though. Yes, they can Melee. But they simply cannot put out the damage a Solid Blade barrier does. If your building your a FvS to be "COrrectly done Melee DPS" your the one doing DPS Wrong. COrect Melee DPS in this game comes down to Frenzied Beserkers, Kensai Fighters, and many FotM Tempest/ROgue/Monk type combonations.

+3 DC is a LOT more than +3 to it and damage in this game. Especialy since TO hit Scales and has tons of buffs that make a huge difference. Increasing your SPell DC's is a LOT harder than increasing your To hit. Plus Mob Saves are a lot lower than their AC normally. 15% better change for a spell to land is more efficient than +5% change to hit them. (Especially whenyou are already hitting them 95% of the time anyway)

[Delt]

Yes, 10x More damage. and why limit yourself to Single enemies? How often do we fact single enemies in this game?

ANd yes, I have done Melee DPS Corectly.... We're talking about FvS's here though. Yes, they can Melee. But they simply cannot put out the damage a Solid Blade barrier does. If your building your a FvS to be "COrrectly done Melee DPS" your the one doing DPS Wrong. COrect Melee DPS in this game comes down to Frenzied Beserkers, Kensai Fighters, and many FotM Tempest/ROgue/Monk type combonations.

+3 DC is a LOT more than +3 to it and damage in this game. Especialy since TO hit Scales and has tons of buffs that make a huge difference. Increasing your SPell DC's is a LOT harder than increasing your To hit. Plus Mob Saves are a lot lower than their AC normally. 15% better change for a spell to land is more efficient than +5% change to hit them. (Especially whenyou are already hitting them 95% of the time anyway)

When do we limit ourselves to single enemies? Bosses and situational. -/+ 3 dc on a BB is all about the same when it comes down to evasion enemies, or casters that won't play the follow game. You are better off insta killing them or meleeing them, end of story. Which is what my examples of the new quests should have highlighted.

If a DPS melee class is only dependant on Frenzy, FE, 10% alatricty or sneak in your mind, then I'd argue your measuring stick is pretty **** poor and unfair. GTWF+PA+30ish STR+APs = equals pretty good DPS.

If you think a caster specced FVS is gonna equal the melee DPS of a melee-specced one (even balanced like mine), you are fooling yourself. And while I'd agree +DC holds more value than +dmg/tohit, point for point - the problem becomes that on the Divine spell list, it doesn't matter much UNLESS you are bothering with spell pen (1+ feats and 12 APs) and that requires sacrifice. The DC on a BB is largely irrelevant - where it matters is Implosion (broken last I looked) or Destruct or maybe a few CC choices. Nothing some good weapons can't emulate.

Argue the merits of a casting FVS all you want, I'll probably agree with you. Start saying classes aren't DPS without a few select perks and I'll simply reject your opinion as defensive and silly - but you are entitled to your opinion.

[Impaqt]

When do we limit ourselves to single enemies? Bosses and situational. -/+ 3 dc on a BB is all about the same when it comes down to evasion enemies, or casters that won't play the follow game. You are better off insta killing them or meleeing them, end of story. Which is what my examples of the new quests should have highlighted.

If a DPS melee class is only dependant on Frenzy, FE, 10% alatricty or sneak in your mind, then I'd argue your measuring stick is pretty **** poor and unfair. GTWF+PA+30ish STR+APs = equals pretty good DPS.

If you think a caster specced FVS is gonna equal the melee DPS of a melee-specced one (even balanced like mine), you are fooling yourself. And while I'd agree +DC holds more value than +dmg/tohit, point for point - the problem becomes that on the Divine spell list, it doesn't matter much UNLESS you are bothering with spell pen (1+ feats and 12 APs) and that requires sacrifice. The DC on a BB is largely irrelevant - where it matters is Implosion (broken last I looked) or Destruct or maybe a few CC choices. Nothing some good weapons can't emulate.

Argue the merits of a casting FVS all you want, I'll probably agree with you. Start saying classes aren't DPS without a few select perks and I'll simply reject your opinion as defensive and silly - but you are entitled to your opinion.

THe advantage a Melee FvS has over other Melee toons is Self Buffs and tremendous self healing along with the ability to heal others as you see fit. THeres a Huge trade off for that flexibility. It costs DPS.

DC on blade barier is totaly relevant against Evasive mobs. moreso even. I can still wack em with a Cursepewer, Wack em a few more times with a Maladriot weapon if need be and get solid damage numbers. Most evasive mobs have significantly lower hit points than non evasives. It doesnt take much to kill them with a blade barrier.

Destruct/Slay works just fine on Casters. ANd I can still use a Vorpal if need be.

I have no issues with melee focused FvS's at all. but your kidding yourself if you think a group is expecting nothing but DPS if they add you instead of a Kensai.

[Delt]

I have no issues with melee focused FvS's at all. but your kidding yourself if you think a group is expecting nothing but DPS if they add you instead of a Kensai.

Hyperbole much? Feel free to point out where I said anything even resembling that comment. This isn't some dumped WIS warforged beast build. Exaggeration makes for a boring debate.

In my example, self spell buffed, you are talking the GTWF line with a screen +28/23 to base dmg, pre-boosts. It's bringing 2000+ SP points, all masses, metamagics, evasion, high AC and 500ish HP to boot. If you want to tunnel vision to the dmg numbers and ignore the rest and say it can't do DPS in a group because it ain't a Kensai/Tempest/Barb/rog whatever, go nuts...I'm not concerned about changing your opinion, I'll just content myself with poking holes in it :cool:

There is trade off in anything. I simply have yet to encounter an actual in-game situation where a little DC on blade barrier matters -- and I've played ALL game content on this FVS build and a casting pure cleric. The main trade off is spell pen and I've contented myself with that for the extra punch in melee. I pointed that out in my inital post. If you want to pretend a casting FVS can match my damage in melee and there is no trade off the other way, have fun...

/shrug

PS - Just noticed you had a build posted, I'd imagine your arguing stems from comparisons to that (you really should reference your comparisons, not all of us read the forums -- especially builds). You have +5 less dmg/hit, and I have -4 DC (giving the stance cause I'm honestly too lazy to bother, but negating the pot). I have Empower (my BBs hit harder) you have Spell Pen. The basic trade offs are pretty clear, I'm not gonna list em in detail. Both have merits and both probably suit individual playstyle.

[Draccus]

For all the arguing, there's some great info in this thread. :) Thanks!

I'm leaning towards pure FvS now; mainly for the Sovereign Host capstone. Without plugging the entire build into the planner, how's this look:

Elf Favored Soul 20
Sovereign Host (longswords)

Str: 16 (all level-ups here)
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Feats:
1: Toughness
3: TWF
6: Extend
9: ITWF
12: Maximize
15: Quicken
18: GTWF

I thought about going human for the extra feat. That would allow me to have both maximize and quicken at the time I get Blade Barrier but I'd lose the extra longswords AB and Damage that elves get. I'd pick up Power Attack at 18. The feats work out nicely:

1. Toughness, Extend
3. TWF
6. Maximize
9. ITWF
12. Quicken
15. GTWF
18. Power Attack

Thoughts?

[Matuse]

Given how Empower works on heals and BB, and FvS have a specific enhancement line to lower the spellpoint bump, it seems like it would be a sensible one to take. I'm not just sure what you could feasibly drop in its place. GTWF? PA? Quicken?

[Enochroot]

The "insert stupid forum name for generic builds people have thought of before you" build!!!

18/2 Human FVS/Monk

STR - 32 = 16(base)+5(level)+6(item)+4(tome)+1(Human)
DEX - 26 = 15(base)+6(item)+4(tome)+1(Human)
CON - 24 = 14(base)+6(item)+4(tome)
INT - 08 = 8(base)+2(tome)
WIS - 28 = 14(base)+6(item)+4(tome)+2(APs)+2(exc)
CHA - 20 = 10(base)+6(item)+2(tome)+2(APs)

Feats:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC - Slash (optional, add Kopeshes if you plan on min II's. Or sub in something else if sticking with longswords)
Extend
Empower
Maximize
Quicken
Toughness
Power Attack

HP: 500ish
SP: 2000ish

AC: plenty, depending on gear

Move your human stat APs around, depending on tome status or inclusion of ToD rings. The only thing thats a pain to deal with is stuff with SR, in which case you are plenty capable to beat it down.

That's my 2 cents at least.


Just curious - what's your reasoning for putting stat points into wis at all if DC's don't matter, or is 28 wis somehow a good breakpoint for DC for you? (Ie, you wouldn't make it 3 DC less)


I'm not necessarily criticizing, more curiousity on something I don't understand.

[Timjc86]

Given how Empower works on heals and BB, and FvS have a specific enhancement line to lower the spellpoint bump, it seems like it would be a sensible one to take. I'm not just sure what you could feasibly drop in its place. GTWF? PA? Quicken?

I'm struggling with this question on my elf 18 Fvs / 2 Monk.... I've got:

Toughness
TWF
Extend
Empower
ITWF
IC: Slash
PA
Maximize
GTWF

I'd really like to squeeze in Quicken somewhere, but there's nothing I feel like I can give up for it. I may try extend, but I really enjoy the double time on Divine Favor/Power, Recitation, Prayer, and especially Blade Barrier.

I'd definitely recommend taking Empower - with the FvS enhancements and one of the efficient empower items, it's CHEAP.

[Varr]

En, I think I can answer that even though I'm putting level ups into wis.

The short answer is that a 14 base wis (1-1 at build) with +2 pts of enhancement....wearing a +6 item and eating the best wis tome to can grab.....allows for the highest "free" wisdom you can obtain

Just like my toon starting with a 14 con +6 item +2 tome.....22 con is the best "free" con I can have.

"Free" being an almost no brainer no sacrifice ....free selection.

[Twerpp]

This is what I would do (sort of what I'm doing)

Dwarf 20 FvS
14 Str (not important to max, the few points of dps will not be worth sacrificing spell DC)
17 Wis with level up points in Wisdom for better spell DC.
Low Cha, like 10 or so. Just make sure you have enough to cast without needing CHA III enhancement which is expensive at 6 AP, much better stuff to spend that on
Decent stats everywhere else

1 Toughness feat to unlock the 80 HP via enhancements
Dwarven or Greataxe proficiency
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
And whatever else you want, Heighten, or Heavy Armor Proficiency if you think you can reach meaningful AC (and you can with a dwarf). Some people are die-hard about empower heals but its worthless, only applies to heal spell, only good for 3 things. Killing Cholthuzz, healing WF too stupid to get healers friend, and setting the world record for heals and posting it on your bio to show everyone how uber you are.

The healing will come without any feats, just choose the right spells. At level 15 Ive got 2 AoE cures (those with maximize and empower are plenty to cover raids), Heal, Blade Barrier, Destruction and Slay Living so I'm not really missing out on anything. You'll find yourself missing stuff as you level up, FoM, Deathward, True Seeing, Prot From Elements, much like a sorc but it will come in time.

Picking up scrolls of heal (obvious one), raise dead (another obvious one but you may go without the spell for a while), res, prot from elements (very useful), true seeing (competes with some other good spells). Very helpful. Also mass spell resist (caster level makes it 25 which actually works a lot)

[Delt]

Just curious - what's your reasoning for putting stat points into wis at all if DC's don't matter, or is 28 wis somehow a good breakpoint for DC for you? (Ie, you wouldn't make it 3 DC less)


I'm not necessarily criticizing, more curiousity on something I don't understand.

You can criticize, I don't mind. But to answer your question, its basically what Varr said. I looked at FVS and asked myself "can I do all 3 [healing, casting, melee]?". And that's the approach I used for the stats. Definitely nothing min/max here. Getting WIS to that point didn't require much, and the points elsewhere didn't provide the same benefit.

Further, WIS gives more than just adequate DC on a few spells for an 18/2 build, so the trade off was worthwhile on paper.

The only real question on stats is where to chuck the level points. If you want to cast more, dump them in WIS for an easy standing of 34-36 (38 with pot). Swap out a feat for Spell Pen and you are good to go. Personally, I'd rather melee mostly on my FVS.

[Shade]

1. Roll a Paladin.
FvS is not a melee class. They are one of the very worst classes to melee on in the game. You will only do poor damage at best. Been grouping with allot of TWF FvS lately.. They are horrible at melee. Especially at low lvl. At high lvl you can't even hope to dps any mob down, so get out a vorpal. Vorpals aren't worth spending a bunch of feats on. Hell you don't even need much strength, mob AC is rather poor endgame.

I understand the thought behind it tho. "Ok I get free weapon proficiecy in this 1 handed weapon, might as well use 2 right?" So very wrong. If you must attempt to DPS on a FvS, there is only 1 logical way to attempt it - Warforged, Lord of the Blades, Greatsword, Power attack... And even that is not going to be much of a melee character.

What ends up happening, is you might melee some stuff down at low lvl, then when finally get to endgame you have a character with 3-6 wasted feat, gimped spell DC for spending it on str.. And just end up vorpaling mobs just as badly as a caster spec FvS - only he can also impload and blade barrier the **** out of them while you can't.

2. Easy enough. 18 wis + lvl up pnts, maximum, empower, heighten, extend. Get a sup pot VI item, and work on a greater arcane lore and/or the new archamage set.
3. Pretty much an automatic feature of the class. Just make sure you get the spells, and enhancements (life magic, scroll mastery) and your set.

It's hard to mess up a FvS build really. The only real way to do it is waste allot of feats on melee stuff. All your doing by doing that is making a very gimped paladin.

If you really want to melee allot and self heal. Make a Paladin. Or hell even a Warforged Sorcerer.

[Twerpp]

I do it just for fun. Sometimes as a healer/nuker you're just standing around. Whip out the weapons and beat something down, join the fun, or whip them out first and beat down their saves/spell pen so you only have to toss that instakill once. This is nice to have when you solo cause the orange names aren't always easy to nuke. As a healer theres no ultimate feat you are missing out on if you take something to melee with, a few metamagics and you're good. You're not really gimping anything, you just won't be min/maxed.
EDIT: and pallies dont have BB you can kite 90 mobs through at a time, no amount of self heal is gonna help them there, no AoE heals, and they have to be do-gooders most importantly. But yeah their melee is way better.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with Shade the FVS is not even as good at melee as a cleric and quite frankly is the worst class in ddo at melee. A quality favored soul is limited in terms of build just by the nature of the class.

[Delt]

1. Roll a Paladin.
FvS is not a melee class. They are one of the very worst classes to melee on in the game.

And just end up vorpaling mobs just as badly as a caster spec FvS - only he can also impload and blade barrier the **** out of them while you can't.

If you really want to melee allot and self heal. Make a Paladin. Or hell even a Warforged Sorcerer.

I'd ask you to back up your claims with some actual numbers/proof/logic, but since the last 3+ years have proven you won't, I'll just bite the bullet and do it for you.

Shade is probably correct on that. Specific builds aside, Rog's have sneak, Rangers have speed+FE, Barbs have rage, Fighters have crit+speed, Pali's have a few specifc tricks. That puts the FVS around bards and clerics for inherant melee ability. The racial and/or class weapon +'s can only amount to so much.

There is nothing preventing Blade Barriers with non maxxed WIS, feel free to point out where it stops working and I'll either prove you wrong or concede you have a point.

As for your last comment, it's idiotic. Show me a WF sorc that passes Fvs melee numbers or show me a Pali that can bring equal group healing.


I agree with Shade the FVS is not even as good at melee as a cleric and quite frankly is the worst class in ddo at melee. A quality favored soul is limited in terms of build just by the nature of the class.

Shade's sideki-- I mean, Matt, back up that statement with anything even remotely resembling logic :rolleyes:

[Twerpp]

Dont see what Matts talkin about for sure. Seems the FvS and Cleric are on pretty equal ground, or FvS is actually slightly better. Both get Divine Favor and Power, both have some deity weapon options (FvS better), and neither get any extra feats to blow. A lot of people have assumptions about FvS because they are new. Incapable healers, battlecleric style only, etc.

[maddmatt70]

Dont see what Matts talkin about for sure. Seems the FvS and Cleric are on pretty equal ground, or FvS is actually slightly better. Both get Divine Favor and Power, both have some deity weapon options (FvS better), and neither get any extra feats to blow. A lot of people have assumptions about FvS because they are new. Incapable healers, battlecleric style only, etc.

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage. Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc.. Bards are better, but are not that good at melee either. Sorcs well are not as good technically but at least people do not expect a sorc to heal. It really is about rangers, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues, and even monks in terms of dps. A favored soul might as well dump strength and when you feel like you want to melee break out the vorpal, cast divine power and favor and then swing for 20s.

[Delt]

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage.

Even if I pretended to ignore that your example require 20 base CHA and all the sacrifices it would potentially require, I find it harder to ignore the FVS boost list that isn't stat dependant and the class/racial bonuses. It's pretty clear you don't have a clue here.


Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc..

I'll confess you actually made me laugh here...the "more feats", "rage spell" and all encompassing "etc" got a chuckle, lol.


Bunch of other nonsense I'm too lazy to refute.

You probably should have simply admitted you made an exaggerated statement rather than make everyone on the forums dumber after reading the nonsense you posted above. Heh.

[maddmatt70]

Even if I pretended to ignore that your example require 20 base CHA and all the sacrifices it would potentially require, I find it harder to ignore the FVS boost list that isn't stat dependant and the class/racial bonuses. It's pretty clear you don't have a clue here.



I'll confess you actually made me laugh here...the "more feats", "rage spell" and all encompassing "etc" got a chuckle, lol.



You probably should have simply admitted you made an exaggerated statement rather than make everyone on the forums dumber after reading the nonsense you posted above. Heh.

Lets see you type out an actual dps comparison of fvs to other builds and in particular the real melee builds. Who is living in the dream world now?

[Twerpp]

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage. Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc.. Bards are better, but are not that good at melee either. Sorcs well are not as good technically but at least people do not expect a sorc to heal. It really is about rangers, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues, and even monks in terms of dps. A favored soul might as well dump strength and when you feel like you want to melee break out the vorpal, cast divine power and favor and then swing for 20s.

Oh yeah I forgot about Divine Might. Still pretty comparable to the FvS Child of So-and-So bonuses though. And of course its weak compared to straight melee classes. You have every good spell in the game except haste.

[Delt]

Lets see you type out an actual dps comparison of fvs to other builds and in particular the real melee builds. Who is living in the dream world now?

While we are on the subject of asking me to justify things I didn't claim, perhaps next you can ask me to prove why peanut butter is awesome...

:rolleyes:

[Enochroot]

There is nothing preventing Blade Barriers with non maxxed WIS, feel free to point out where it stops working and I'll either prove you wrong or concede you have a point.



I'm not going to get into the melee argument - I just don't care. I have GTWF cleric/monks as well, I'll reserve that argument for shade.


However, regarding BB, and especially destruction/implosion, a melee FvS build (like you posted) is 7-8 DC down on a caster build, plus 2-6 spell pen down. Even with BB, have you really not seen mobs only take half damage on a successful save? (Or zero, with reflex save?)


I see it all the time - and while I don't have a breakpoint DC for that (sort of my question with the 28 wis) - in MY min/max mind, I have to min or max whatever it is my toon is doing.


And I think the whole argument around "what do you do when you're not casting" (Previously, intimidate and recharge sp) - has been replaced by "continuously cast whichever FvS capstone you happen to be, unless you took the nightshield one"


Obviously, building for "fun" is still wholly relevant and valid.

[EinarMal]

+1 on the FVS melee focused build is a waste of time without prestige enhancements

You are far better off maxing wisdom and starting with 14 strength.

It really has to do with the power curve, the best caster FVS is very close to the best caster in the game, more spell points but behind a couple DC to a Wizard. similar if slightly slower casting to a sorc.

The best FVS melee build you can make regardless of what you do is horribly behind the real DPS classes that is just a fact (about 40%).

I like to melee, it comes in handy when soloing, not all mobs are blade barrier appropriate. It might take a bit longer, but you can still do it with the proper buffs and 14 strength.

I have a Warforged 18/2 and I am still starting with 15 wisdom and putting all level ups there.

Here are two examples of builds I am doing that do all three, with melee being a secondary attack.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=193562

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=196607

[Delt]

However, regarding BB, and especially destruction/implosion, a melee FvS build (like you posted) is 7-8 DC down on a caster build, plus 2-6 spell pen down. Even with BB, have you really not seen mobs only take half damage on a successful save? (Or zero, with reflex save?)

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).



The best FVS melee build you can make regardless of what you do is horribly behind the real DPS classes that is just a fact (about 40%).

I'd take your word for that, sounds about right. I'd estimate FVS melee DPS somewhere between 250-300 for non fort, probably passing 300 with a WF build or including sneak, set bonuses, etc. Feel free to calc the numbers out to nail it down, I won't.

[Enochroot]

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).



I'd take your word for that, sounds about right. I'd estimate FVS melee DPS somewhere between 250-300 for non fort, probably passing 300 with a WF build or including sneak, set bonuses, etc. Feel free to calc the numbers out to nail it down, I won't.


Yeah, I can't conclusively say myself. I'm a bit biased because my pure cleric is MUCH better geared than either my mostly max-dc monk splash and also my 14-wis build monk splash, so I know my caster cleric is clearly more effective, survivable and has higher dps, higher sp's, higher hp's (for instance, sins elite) - but I have no idea exactly how much of that is gear. (Clearly he shouldn't have more hp than my monk-splash dwarf build ...)


So, anyway - that's why I wasn't really necessarily criticizing the 14-wis thing, just that I had been tending towards, well, if you're going to be melee-ing or only doing direct damage (searing light/BB, we'll call BB non-dc-check, for now) - why not put the 6 points into either con or str.


Anyway - I don't have clear numbers myself so ... probably done with this discussion =P

[Shade]

That puts the FVS around bards and clerics for inherant melee ability. The racial and/or class weapon +'s can only amount to so much.


Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.

Bards are obvious with there haste, rage, songs. Which may only make them a better solo melee vs a FvS.. But in any group scenario, the FvS is expected to heal and not melee much anyways. If they instead want to play as a melee, they will get declined as anyone with any knowledge of the game mechanics would recruit a real melee class instead. The bards main attraction is always his songs, what he does beyond that is generally looked upon as a bonus, not an expectation.

Wiz/Sorcs are pretty bad melee's too, but they have the tools to do so in certain situations with great effect if they desire to do so. Namely flesh to stone.. Used against a mob immune to insta kills or regular CC (pretty common in the mod8/9 content), followed up by a high burst or dreamspitter weapon can result in some very fast and effective melee kills in the hardest of quests, something a melee FvS will never be contributing much on.

They are hands down the absolute worst melee class. If your idea of fun is to really focus your build on something the class is entirely bad at, by all means have a ball. If your looking to make a very strong all around character that can melee a bit - focus the stats/feats on the caster side instead, with a bit of strength and maybe 1-2 feats on the melee side and you'll do great.

[Impaqt]

Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.


This is just a bizaar statement.....

Divine might requires a significant investment in Charisma. Most clerics, Especially battle Clerics do not invest heavily in Charisma. and Lacking spell slots to melee adequetly? Huh?

Divine Favor. Divine Power.

End of list.....
I cant even think of another melee buff a cleric has... recitation? Nice, but the To Hit portiond oesnt stack with Divine Favor, nor does it have a Damage portion. Prayer? Again, Doesnt stack with Divine Favor...

Divine Favor is Level 1. its the first spell most FvS's take....

DP is level 4. While level 4 has a lot of good spells, if your going to melee, its not hard to justify having it.

[EinarMal]

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).



I disagree with 2, all I am saying is that the extra focus on melee is bad, because whether you hit 40% less DPS of a top tier build or 45% less means very little.

I think it is good personally to start with 14 strength and take power attack on a FVS or Cleric, because in some situations melee DPS (even if not spectacular) can help move the quest along for the group and is handy when soloing.

You are better off with melee as your third option (via power attack, 14 str, etc...) and putting level ups into wisdom. Basically because you can still be a very good to great caster, with some melee ability when it is needed.

The other option of trying to be "great" at melee is a false hope because you simply can't be.

[Delt]

Apparently, laughing at Matt wasn't enough to for you to hold back your own brand of dumb comments, so here we go:


Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.

Even if you give a cleric Divine Might (which is unlikely), it's evened out against the FVS inherant bonuses/boosts. Your spell slots arguement is stupid...I realize you are only aware of a select few spells clerics carry "HJEAL!!!", so I'll forgive your ignorance.


Bards are obvious with there haste, rage, songs. Which may only make them a better solo melee vs a FvS.. But in any group scenario, the FvS is expected to heal and not melee much anyways. If they instead want to play as a melee, they will get declined as anyone with any knowledge of the game mechanics would recruit a real melee class instead. The bards main attraction is always his songs, what he does beyond that is generally looked upon as a bonus, not an expectation.

Well, you say a couple dumb things here, so let's get started. Haste and rage are irrelevant -- everyone that melees has pots or clickies of both. The only relevant portion is songs. I'd suggest you add up the divine spell and FVS bonuses and see where the numbers end up - then come back and post. Give the bard a DP clickie if you really want too.

As for being declined, I'm not sure what you think here...anything a bard does beyond songs is a bonus but the same doesn't hold true for FVS? Is it that you think a few points in STR prevents healing? Maybe you should elaborate so I can make fun of you easier.


Some really stupid babbling about hitting stoned mobs with a woo-woo stick

Too idiotic to even respond...

The only thing you've proven Shade is that you are ignorant and clueless as to the inner workings of the classes you referenced. I'd suggest you stick to the barb forums and look 'less' foolish.


I disagree with 2, all I am saying is that the extra focus on melee is bad, because whether you hit 40% less DPS of a top tier build or 45% less means very little.

Again, I'm taking your 40% at face value and blindly accepting it as true -- though I'd much prefer if someone actually calc'd out the numbers for FVS, instead of guessing.

That said, let's pretend not grabbing spell pen and putting in STR adds 5-10%. If you are spending significant time meleeing, it's worthwhile. End of story.

I really don't know why some of you are putting forth the hyperbole that if you want melee, you expect your FVS to be on par with a Zerker. It's ********. You give up zero healing ability, all you lose is the ability to deal with spell pen and some spell DC (offensive Direct casting). If you care about direct offensive casting, that's a stupid idea. If you don't care, great...now go wack it with weapons. lol

[Timjc86]

FvS bonuses with deity weapons are equivalent to fighters with the weapon focus and specialization feat sets (pre-prestige enhancements). For a class that can stack Divine Favor on top of that and still throw heals, and blade barriers, that's not too shabby. I expect a melee focused prestige line will help close the gap further.

I essentially see melee Favored Souls playing similarly to monks, just much more effectively: more DPS, better buffing, much better healing.

[Impaqt]

FvS bonuses with deity weapons are equivalent to fighters with the weapon focus and specialization feat sets (pre-prestige enhancements). For a class that can stack Divine Favor on top of that and still throw heals, and blade barriers, that's not too shabby. I expect a melee focused prestige line will help close the gap further.

I essentially see melee Favored Souls playing similarly to monks, just much more effectively: more DPS, better buffing, much better healing.

Pure fighters were not really considered an optimal DPS Build until after Kensai and additional PrE Enhancments were introduced.

[Timjc86]

Pure fighters were not really considered an optimal DPS Build until after Kensai and additional PrE Enhancments were introduced.

And I'm not trying to argue that melee Favored Souls ARE optimal DPS builds. I'm just trying to put things into perspective. Favored Soul melee DPS isn't bad. And that's without any prestige enhancements.

[Impaqt]

And I'm not trying to argue that melee Favored Souls ARE optimal DPS builds. I'm just trying to put things into perspective. Favored Soul melee DPS isn't bad. And that's without any prestige enhancements.


I guess it all depends on ones personal opinion on "bad DPS" vs. "Good DPS"

[maddmatt70]

Pure fighters were not really considered an optimal DPS Build until after Kensai and additional PrE Enhancments were introduced.

The difference between a fighter last mod and a FVS this mod is night and day. Fighters were only about 15% off the dps of a barbarian or ranger last mod whereas an FVS is 50%+ off of the dps of a top flight melee this mod.

[RavenStormclaw]

Just thougth I would way in on this. Its not really done that often for a variety of reason already stated; however, it can be done. I have 3 FvS builds currently. My latest one is a dwarf favored soul. He will be 18/2 FvS/ffighter. I chose this route for a specific reason. I have a collection of great axes and nothing to do with them since I have no desire to play a striclty melee class. So I created this guy. Basic stats:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Intel 8
Wis 16
Chr 12

All level ups will be into wisdom for the Dc's on spells. final wisdom should be decent at 30, and str should be ok at 24 (not great I know) considering swing the axe won't be the only way I can do damage.

He won't be superman but I think he will be effective.. focus on buffs, heals, bladebarreis and implosion...the axe will just help drag aggor into my traps (ie blade barrier and implosion)

[ddoer]

Given how Empower works on heals and BB, and FvS have a specific enhancement line to lower the spellpoint bump, it seems like it would be a sensible one to take. I'm not just sure what you could feasibly drop in its place. GTWF? PA? Quicken?

useful info about the Empower metamagic enhancement. thx

[Shade]

Divine might requires a significant investment in Charisma. Most clerics, Especially battle Clerics do not invest heavily in Charisma.

That is just a very poor arguement. That's no differnet then me saying most FvS don't put allot of points into strength.

A player willing to sacrifice much of his characters caster ability to focus on melee willl do everything he can to melee well. And that includes high charsima. If he doesn't - that doesn't make the class itself bad, it makes the player and build bad.

And on the buffs side, wading into melee on a caster class with purely offensive buffs and no thought to defensive ones is just a great way to get killed. Allot more buffs are required to do anything at all effectively on either class then just DP/DF. And yea both classes COULD get every relevant buff, but the sacrifice a FvS has to do to manage that is far far greater then what a cleric does.

I've felt this very much first hand ingame experience on my new FvS.. Who's not a melee bild, but melees at the low lvls anyways cuz I run outa SP nuking too fast. Lvl4 - Divine Power right.. Well you only get 1 spell slot when a cleric gets 3.. The cleric can have cure crit, divine power AND freedom of movement.. FvS's not getting freedom.. He's getting his ass killed by earth elementals. One of my very first non-trap deaths on my FvS.. Earthgrabbed.

I'd also argue that allot of FvS going TWF purely because of the free weapon prof in a 1 handed weapon is dumb. A low damage boost, low feat, low attack speed class has no almost no benefits from TWF, and allot of penalties (like needing double the shroud ingredients)

I'd argue a Dwarven Cleric who uses Greataxe would be vastly superior melee DPS, and an all around better party member then a FvS who focus on any 1handed weapon with TWF. Not gona add up the numbers as I've already seen them in aother threads, but it's by far the best way to go if you want a healer class that melee's.

Now ofcourse either class can go THF.. But FvS going Greataxe loses all his melee bonuses, less he's warforged.. (IMO the best melee capable fvs - and once lvl20, very competitive with melee clrs as he's much tougher with 12+ DR)

So lvl1-19.. Clerics are superior.. Lvl20, your both vorpalling stuff anyways, so WF FvS gets the edge with the DR. (Tho clerics capstone is also awesome, just has less application to solo melee ability)

[Delt]

I should probably stop...but it's just too tempting to get my obvious "lol's" in...



I've felt this very much first hand ingame experience on my new FvS.. Who's not a melee bild, but melees at the low lvls anyways cuz I run outa SP nuking too fast. Lvl4 - Divine Power right.. Well you only get 1 spell slot when a cleric gets 3.. The cleric can have cure crit, divine power AND freedom of movement.. FvS's not getting freedom.. He's getting his ass killed by earth elementals. One of my very first non-trap deaths on my FvS.. Earthgrabbed.

So that's your justification for the whole "more buffs to melee well" earlier...your lowbie FVS had 1 slot at the time and you couldn't take FoM? That's the best you could come up with to back track and justify that stupid comment? Hahaha. For your info, you do end up with more than 1 spell slot for level 4 spells...you end up with 4 in fact.


I'd argue a Dwarven Cleric who uses Greataxe would be vastly superior melee DPS, and an all around better party member then a FvS who focus on any 1handed weapon with TWF. Not gona add up the numbers as I've already seen them in aother threads, but it's by far the best way to go if you want a healer class that melee's.

Now ofcourse either class can go THF.. But FvS going Greataxe loses all his melee bonuses, less he's warforged.. (IMO the best melee capable fvs - and once lvl20, very competitive with melee clrs as he's much tougher with 12+ DR)

I'm pretty sure you mean greatSWORD for WF, but since you lack any applicable cleric or FVS build, we all understand your simple mistake.

D. Cleric w/ THF GA (and 20 base CHA and no sacrifices elsewhere :rolleyes: ) = +2 hit/+10 Dmg (racial+DM)
E. FVS w/ TWF Scimi's = +3/+11 (racial+patron+boost)


So lvl1-19.. Clerics are superior..

That's a fantasic and amusing leap, given how full of fail all your earlier comments were. I'll say it again, stick to the barb forums where your ignorance can be less readily apparent.

[jakeelala]

I'm curious, besides spell slots, which apparently is remedied by level 20, what melee bonuses do clerics vs. FvS get that are worth paying attention to?

I know Divine Might is cleric/pali only, but assuming 20 natural charisma (ESPECIALLY ON A DWARVEN CLERIC SHADE) is totally unreasonable. At best you can assume DMII, not DMIII.

So I believe that's what, +4 to damage? That's pretty good for sure, but not putting them much further ahead of a FvS. They're also going to have a lot less SP, if I'm not mistaken, as a cleric.

Also, as you mentioned, DR10 at lvl 20 is pretty freaking sick, if you're melee'ing.

I think it's pretty clear a WF FvS is the way to go for Melee, with all the THF and DR feats you can get. TWF is hard to manage since you need high str to hit and damage, high wis for any sort of DC's, and high Dex for the TWF feats. Plus con for HP of course. That's 4 of your stats right there. You could dump cha, but not that much as you need it to cast spells of a certain level, so it's not advisable to make it like, 6.

I understand the arguments that TWF FvS with any offensive casting abilities is next to impossible to make.

I do not understand the argument that clerics are better melee, nor that a THF WF FvS couldn't dish out some pretty terrific damage. And don't compare it to a barb...the FvS dps is probably 10x the barbs over say 10 rounds, where the barb would have been dead on it's own on round 5, and the FvS is still fighting and healing itself.

Your point of view tends to be a bit tunneled Shade, and does not generally reflect reality, and instead some sort of subjective, not quite accurate hypothetical, instantaneous sort of place.

You're right, in any given 5 swings, barbarians do a lot more damage than most classes. However, a lot of barbarians will be dead in 10 swings without significant and frequent healing. If you can last longer, that makes your dps OVER TIME a great deal higher than that spastic, supernova, but all too DEAD, barbarian.

Most of the time you're right about a lot in this game Shade, and on these forums. But I think you're seriously discounting the FvS class, because you died in an Earthgrab once at low level. So what?

I think it's time for someone to do the numbers on this one. But even then, it needs to be understood that somethings that are advantages in one way (crazy huge burst DPS of a barb) are not as good as other things in other situations (healers are out of mana or dead, and you still need to kill some stuff. Cue melee FvS FTW)

It's just not cut and dry.

[Djeserit]

Quite a few clerics (and paladins) reach 20 base CHA, it's not that hard to do and it pays off more than points into STR. Essentially you are trading +1 to hit for +1 damage, and many people choose that path. I am on Ghallanda, perhaps that makes a difference? Now I played on Thelanis one month and I see the servers have very different styles, at least in lowbie PUGs.

When you compare a cleric with
khopesh
PA
IC
GTWF
divine favor, power, might
bloodstone, etc.
points distributed into STR, DEX, CON, WIS, CHA

To a FvS with
PA
IC
GTWF
divine favor, power
bloodstone, etc.
points distributed into STR, DEX, CON, WIS, CHA

using any of their weapons, but I think valenar elf would be best from a pure DPS point of view.

I think both are a little weak in terms of melee, but the Clr is a little ahead...

unless the FvS has both WIS and CHA as a dump stat. (And I have seen this.)

If they would settle on a melee system, perhaps we could make some solid comparisons.


Still.. we must wait for the PrE's to make a solid judgement.