DPS Warchanter?

[Lothemos]

Hey all. I'm currently toying with the idea of a Warchanter that would incorporate some Rogue levels for Sneak Attack. Obviously it wouldn't get the maximum, but I'm thinking either 5 or 7 levels into Rogue, plus being a Halfling, should still give me some decent sneak attack damage.

Basically, starting stats would look something like this:

Str - 13
Dex - 15
Con - 10
Int - 16
Wis - 8
Cha - 11

The thought process behind stat allocation is that the extra skill points from the INT bonus will help with the rogueish skills that I want to try and retain (disable device, search, and open lock more than anything), the Halfling and Rogue enhancement passives can handle boosting me from 15 to 17 dex for ITWF, and the Str is the prereq for Power Attack for the Warchanter.

Any ideas/suggestions/criticism? It's just an idea at the moment, I haven't even tried to plan it out with the character planner yet (mainly because I'm still new to the game as a whole)

EDIT: Or maybe I should look into being a Rogue with a few Bard levels, instead of vice versa?

[Quikster]

I prolly wouldn't play a build like this. Looks pretty squishy.

One rog lvl will be enough to do traps, drop int some and pump up con.

Two rog levels gets you evasion.

If you wanna dps I'd do more str and not worry to much about SA, but that's me.

[whysper]

Warchanter works best with at most two levels splashed in...RP/character concept is another thing, but strictly mechanically it is not really worth it to do a 15/5 or 13/7 split just for the Sneak Attack bonus (granted you also get Evasion), you lose some Bardic abilities, plus it could be a bit challenging leveling up.

The other way around makes a bit more sense, but raises the question of what you are after? Why do you want to combine the two?

[poonce]

Enhancments wont qualify you for the 17 Dex you need for the TWF Line, you need Natural Points (Forget what the correct term is), i.e Tomes, or Stat points.

[Lothemos]

Alright. I'll try 18/2 then. Bump up dex a bit if the racial won't cover it. May switch to Human instead of Halfling due to the Halfling strength penalty.

The issue I've run into is the DC on harder dungeons with Disable Device. Even on a pure rogue with 14 int (+2 modifier) and capped out Disable Device at level 5, I couldn't disable some traps in some of the Sharn Syndicate quests.

What I'm going for is DPS utility with some buffage so I'm even more wanted in groups. If that makes sense.

[whysper]

The issue I've run into is the DC on harder dungeons with Disable Device. Even on a pure rogue with 14 int (+2 modifier) and capped out Disable Device at level 5, I couldn't disable some traps in some of the Sharn Syndicate quests.

Read the Warchanter/Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202431) thread a bit below if you are interested in doing Rogue stuff too - I mistook you for meaning you just wanted the combat bonuses from multiclassing. Girevik's build idea in there is pretty good, and as you have noticed yourself, the 14 (or lower!) Int in some of the other suggestions may not work out so great in practice.

Good catch on the racial bonuses, poonce, I skimmed right over that.

[Lothemos]

Hmm. Okay, going to try and figure out (though it'll be slightly gimped) how to make this work as a non-drow. Thanks for the advice, all.

[Thanimal]

Two builds worth a look (either for ideas or to copy) are Axesinger (linked below) and Falsetto (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173993). These present two nice options for DPS-focused Warchanters.

P.S. Drow is not the best choice for a Warchanter. If peak DPS is your interest, then Halfling and Dwarf are best (in that order -- though I believe the Dwarf offers other advantages that make it overall better). If you want be a little more "Bard-like" then Human is ideal because you need the extra feat if you don't splash Fighter levels. Indeed, I'd prefer Warforged to Drow -- WF have some "issues" as Bards, but they also get the +3 Power Attack enhancement.

Drow is only the best choice for a crowd-control focused Bard. So you definitely shouldn't worry about gimping by NOT using Drow!

[maddmatt70]

Two builds worth a look (either for ideas or to copy) are Axesinger (linked below) and Falsetto (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173993). These present two nice options for DPS-focused Warchanters.



Both good builds although on the axesinger I would have a little higher con score. The Falsetto is a very nice build. OP please do not have a low con score because you will not do dps if you are dead.

[Lothemos]

Alright. I'm home from work, and have spent the past hour and change trying to figure this out in the character builder.

Since I don't have 32 point characters, and I don't have Drow unlocked, and I don't have twink gear, the build I'm going for is very likely going to be difficult. Here's what I came up with. It's mainly Girevik's build, but with a Human instead. Since it has an obscenely low Constitution score to start out with, I'm planning on saving up for a +1 tome to every stat so that I can get them close to where they need to be so the tome pushes them over the edge. All level up points will go straight into Con.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Gendori Bladedancer
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Human Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard)
Hit Points: 232
Spell Points: 616
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 14
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 8 15
Intelligence 16 17
Wisdom 8 9
Charisma 11 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 9
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 9
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 9
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 9
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 9
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 24
Bluff 0 3
Concentration -1 25
Diplomacy 4 7
Disable Device 7 26
Haggle 4 7
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 8
Intimidate 0 3
Jump 5 6
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 7 8
Open Lock 7 27
Perform n/a 26
Repair 3 3
Search 7 25
Spot 3 6
Swim 1 2
Tumble 7 8
Use Magic Device 4 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV


Level 16 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 17 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV




Now keep in mind, I didn't exactly try to plan out every level for the enhancements to be taken at. I did plan out exactly which enhancements I thought were key for the build, and planned accordingly, but it's still a tad confusing to work with the character builder (I work better when I look at things that are nice and spread out as opposed to cramped like the builder is).

So my apologies if it's messy. I know that I could (and I probably will in the future) rearrange the enhancements based upon which ones would be more useful at certain levels, but this is the best I could come up with for my first time. Any questions, comments, or concerns are most definitely welcome, so long as they are constructive!

Edit: Forgot to mention, I don't have a clue about the top-end gear in this game, so I can't exactly include that stuff yet.

Edit 2: oh, and unlike Girevik's Drow, humans get an extra point every level. I used this to raise Balance to help recover from knockdowns faster. This build should be able to disarm traps, spot heal, do some dps, and hopefully avoid taking too much damage while doing so. So being knocked down is not something I think would be beneficial =p

[Junts]

Try this out.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=177657

[Lothemos]

Try this out.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=177657

Well... I've kinda changed my goal since the first post. I should probably edit it to say so, but in case anyone else has the initial idea I had, the rest of the thread may be helpful.

I'm now building for a "Swiss Army Knife". Rogue trap skills, every bard heal, some utility spells, and the ability to do damage and buff with Inspire Courage.

[Thanimal]

Both good builds although on the axesinger I would have a little higher con score. The Falsetto is a very nice build. OP please do not have a low con score because you will not do dps if you are dead.

Minor note (almost off-topic, sorry): For the 32-point version I recommended 16 CON (and thus more HP than Falsetto unless I'm missing something), but with 28-points you have to give up SOMETHING. Dwarf CON enh means you can have sorta passable HP (for a Bard that is) anyhow.

[Thanimal]

Well... I've kinda changed my goal since the first post. I should probably edit it to say so, but in case anyone else has the initial idea I had, the rest of the thread may be helpful.

I'm now building for a "Swiss Army Knife". Rogue trap skills, every bard heal, some utility spells, and the ability to do damage and buff with Inspire Courage.

Personally, I lack the skill to play such a build without getting insanely frustrated. You're going to have some pretty awful HP, AC, and Fort save. I know from experience that that level of vulnerability would send me straight to rerollville. But if you can somehow avoid damage, the build can certainly do a lot of different things.

[Thelmallen]

Alright. I'm home from work, and have spent the past hour and change trying to figure this out in the character builder.

[snipped]

Gendori Bladedancer
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Human Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard)
Hit Points: 232
Spell Points: 616
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 14
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 8 15
Intelligence 16 17
Wisdom 8 9
Charisma 11 16



While human is an ok choice for this build (halfling might be slightly better), I'd still recommend dropping your int and adding to con. If you go with 12s in each, with the +1 extra skill point per level, you still should have enough for search, OL and DD, which is really all you need anyhow. I don't devote skill points to spot in any of my rogue-splashes. For end-game content, if you have under 350-400 hp with less than a 60-70ish AC and try to melee you're gonna get torn up. It seems that you're trying to sort of split the middle with this build (roguish with some strength and melee capabilities) which is exactly how I play my PnP characters. Unfortunately, in this incarnation of DnD, maxed out is the way to go. You can get by splashing to add depth to a character but trying to do too much is pretty tough. You just can't keep up at the top end content. I'm not saying that's right, it just seems to be the nature of the beast right now.

Personally, I don't think you're going to find it that hard to hit the end-game traps with this build. My ranger/rogue has a 12 int, 18 with item, max leveled skill ranks and has no trouble searching and disabling traps.

[maddmatt70]

While human is an ok choice for this build (halfling might be slightly better), I'd still recommend dropping your int and adding to con. If you go with 12s in each, with the +1 extra skill point per level, you still should have enough for search, OL and DD, which is really all you need anyhow. I don't devote skill points to spot in any of my rogue-splashes. For end-game content, if you have under 350-400 hp with less than a 60-70ish AC and try to melee you're gonna get torn up. It seems that you're trying to sort of split the middle with this build (roguish with some strength and melee capabilities) which is exactly how I play my PnP characters. Unfortunately, in this incarnation of DnD, maxed out is the way to go. You can get by splashing to add depth to a character but trying to do too much is pretty tough. You just can't keep up at the top end content. I'm not saying that's right, it just seems to be the nature of the beast right now.

Personally, I don't think you're going to find it that hard to hit the end-game traps with this build. My ranger/rogue has a 12 int, 18 with item, max leveled skill ranks and has no trouble searching and disabling traps.

This has been coming up alot lately bard/rogues. A bard/rogue is a tough character to play well and requires some gear to be really successful at. I am becoming more of the opinion as I read each new thread/post by a new player looking to roll one up to advice that player to roll something else. Barbarians, fighters, clerics, and wizards are all better characters for a new player. Roll one of those characters up get your feet wet and gather some resources unlock at least drow, but better yet unlock 32 point builds and get to end game and then roll one of these characters up.

[Thelmallen]

This has been coming up alot lately bard/rogues. A bard/rogue is a tough character to play well and requires some gear to be really successful at. I am becoming more of the opinion as I read each new thread/post by a new player looking to roll one up to advice that player to roll something else. Barbarians, fighters, clerics, and wizards are all better characters for a new player. Roll one of those characters up get your feet wet and gather some resources unlock at least drow, but better yet unlock 32 point builds and get to end game and then roll one of these characters up.

Interesting to hear that opinion as a year or so ago I tried to roll a bard/rogue and just couldn't make it work. Too many stats needed to be high, too many skill points to spread around, etc. The DPS warchanter is a much easier build to play, I think, than the rogue splash trapmonkey.

[maddmatt70]

Interesting to hear that opinion as a year or so ago I tried to roll a bard/rogue and just couldn't make it work. Too many stats needed to be high, too many skill points to spread around, etc. The DPS warchanter is a much easier build to play, I think, than the rogue splash trapmonkey.

Yeah it requires alot of attention and gear to make it really successful. I prefer something more like 16 bard 2 fighter 2 rogue over an 18 bard 2 rogue because those fighter levels add feats and hp which make things easier.

[moorewr]

Here's my crack at a strength-based evasion warchanter:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2177573#post2177573

Since there isn't room the feats for Oversized TWF, you want to maximize what you can do with a light off-hand weapon. I think drow rapier/short sword with the drow melee enhancement lines are a good match there. Even so you'll be relying on weapon effects (and your great crit range with rapiers) to keep up damage-wise.

Mine is currently level 11 and is one of my favorite characters to play... I agree with all who have said this is an advanced build.

[Thanimal]

Yeah it requires alot of attention and gear to make it really successful. I prefer something more like 16 bard 2 fighter 2 rogue over an 18 bard 2 rogue because those fighter levels add feats and hp which make things easier.

Hey, aren't you the one who pointed out to me that Bard 16 wasn't that great so you might as well do 15 Bard/3 Rogue/2 Fighter? Did you change your mind? (I may update Axesinger accordingly -- level 20 is really up in the air.)

But anyhow, I completely agree that several threads this week have shown that making a really good Bard/trap monkey is quite difficult. Perhaps not worth attempting without 32 points, and maybe not even then. (With the usual caveat that if you want to build something for fun, then just do it!)

[Lothemos]

A lot of people are saying that 350-400 hp is the goal to shoot for. Are you telling me that you can't get ~150-170 hp from a mix of extra Con on gear, and straight hp, on endgame gear? The build gets up to around 230, and I swear I've seen a lot of gear listed that adds decent amounts of hp... but I might be mistaken.

[moorewr]

Hey, aren't you the one who pointed out to me that Bard 16 wasn't that great so you might as well do 15 Bard/3 Rogue/2 Fighter? Did you change your mind? (I may update Axesinger accordingly -- level 20 is really up in the air.)

But anyhow, I completely agree that several threads this week have shown that making a really good Bard/trap monkey is quite difficult. Perhaps not worth attempting without 32 points, and maybe not even then. (With the usual caveat that if you want to build something for fun, then just do it!)

No point in holding off waiting to see if Warchanter III is earth-shaking; just be aware you are giving it (whatever it turns out to be) up when you plan your build. I took the same gamble with my thief-acrobat.

I have to say jamming rogue skills in with everything else is really tough, My evasion warchanter has Open Locks, but no other rogue skills.. Diplo and Haggle are the most obvious things to give up to make room for Search and DD, but I sure like having diplo on a low HP melee.

[maddmatt70]

Hey, aren't you the one who pointed out to me that Bard 16 wasn't that great so you might as well do 15 Bard/3 Rogue/2 Fighter? Did you change your mind? (I may update Axesinger accordingly -- level 20 is really up in the air.)

But anyhow, I completely agree that several threads this week have shown that making a really good Bard/trap monkey is quite difficult. Perhaps not worth attempting without 32 points, and maybe not even then. (With the usual caveat that if you want to build something for fun, then just do it!)

It is complicated. Bards can heal exceptionally well. If a bard has resources i.e. mana pots and heal scrolls then stopping at level 16 bard and picking up empower healing or maximize is a good idea because then you can get cure mod wounds mass at level 16. If the player has less resources or does not plan to heal much then go with a deeper multi-class such as 15 bard 3 rogue 2 fighter.

[maddmatt70]

A lot of people are saying that 350-400 hp is the goal to shoot for. Are you telling me that you can't get ~150-170 hp from a mix of extra Con on gear, and straight hp, on endgame gear? The build gets up to around 230, and I swear I've seen a lot of gear listed that adds decent amounts of hp... but I might be mistaken.

120 hp = Base hp for 18 bard 2 rogue is 120
20 hp = 12 con: at level 20
10 hp = Gianthold favor.
20 hp = herioc hp.
Total:
170 hp.

You can get the following gear:
60 hp = Con +6 item: Fairly easy to get.
30 hp = Greater False Life: Fairly easy to get.
20 hp = minos helm: Relatively easy to get.
20 hp = +2 con tome: Fairly difficult/ expensive to get.
45 hp = Shroud HP item: Difficult to get requires alot of grinding.
20 hp = TOD ring: +2 exceptional con. Very difficult to get at the moment requires completion of TOD raid 9 times on normal which casual players are not completing for the most part yet.
20 hp = A combination of any two of either litany of the dead, + 3 con tome, or exception con +1. All very difficult to get.

So that is 215 potential hit points from gear but only 110 of that hit point gear is relatively easy to get.

Total hp with all gear in DDO is 385 hp which is light in hit points even for a melee with evasion. If you fit in the toughness feat you can add another 40 hp for 425 hp which will work.
The more realistic hit point total for an 18 bard 2 rogue with 12 starting con for a casual/new player is 280 hit points which will get spanked at end game. You add the toughness feat you hit 320 hp which again will get spanked if you plan to melee alot. If you start with an 8 con subtract 40 hp from all of those totals.

[Thelmallen]

A lot of people are saying that 350-400 hp is the goal to shoot for. Are you telling me that you can't get ~150-170 hp from a mix of extra Con on gear, and straight hp, on endgame gear? The build gets up to around 230, and I swear I've seen a lot of gear listed that adds decent amounts of hp... but I might be mistaken.

Matt's breakdown on HP is a good one. I'm not sure that 350hp without an excellent AC is ideal for some of these new quests. My cleric has 425 hp, 50 AC and he routinely gets mugged by the devils in bastion when they port in, getting killed more than once before I can pull off a heal. I'm not saying that 350 is too low but it might be a little lower than you want.

[moorewr]

Matt's breakdown on HP is a good one. I'm not sure that 350hp without an excellent AC is ideal for some of these new quests. My cleric has 425 hp, 50 AC and he routinely gets mugged by the devils in bastion when they port in, getting killed more than once before I can pull off a heal. I'm not saying that 350 is too low but it might be a little lower than you want.

Indeed - for example, my 300 hp evasion cleric gets chewed up if I don't sneak in Sins of Attrition. I'd figure for most bards there's not much alternative to Diplomacy, Displacement, evasion, self-healing, and fervent prayer.

Another issue from the raid is the Symbol of Stunning's magic 450 HP.

[Thanimal]

It is complicated. Bards can heal exceptionally well. If a bard has resources i.e. mana pots and heal scrolls then stopping at level 16 bard and picking up empower healing or maximize is a good idea because then you can get cure mod wounds mass at level 16. If the player has less resources or does not plan to heal much then go with a deeper multi-class such as 15 bard 3 rogue 2 fighter.

Interesting! Thanks!

(I think Axesinger is probably such a craptastic caster that trying to be a decent healer doesn't quite make sense for that particular build. Falseto is even a little worse of a caster, so probably same story there. 15/3/2 still feels right for those -- yes?)

[maddmatt70]

Interesting! Thanks!

(I think Axesinger is probably such a craptastic caster that trying to be a decent healer doesn't quite make sense for that particular build. Falseto is even a little worse of a caster, so probably same story there. 15/3/2 still feels right for those -- yes?)

Yes, 15 bard for the IH; however, if you wanted to go without IH somebody could do level 14 bard. Level 16 bard makes little sense if you do not plan to cast mass cure spells.