Roast my build:

[Zorminster]

I'm working on a character that is slightly more persuasive to the shopkeeps than my dwarf. This is basically a fresh start on a new server- i've got a level 7 dwarven cleric on the server so i have a small bit of coin and can readily get a hold of +1/2/3 items with relative ease. I've got drow unlocked. No 32 pt, no tomes.

Here's what I want from the build in order of importance:
1) Group contribution through handling traps
2) Group contribution through DPS and self-survivability
3) Strong haggle score. I don't expect this to hit the 70s, 80s, or 90s that some can boast- I'm really just looking for something that's more effective for shop-running than my cleric. His wands are expensive and he barely gets any return on his vendor trash.

The reason i'd like this to be a rogue is i've already got a healer and a wizard (different server)--the most effective way to haggle bard seems to be through spellsinger (already requires a high CHA) and i'm just not interested in another caster right now.

So without further adieu, heres the build i've thrown together- i expect it's got MASSIVE shortcomings- i'm inexperienced and i built this late last night. Don't take it easy on me. I know the HP and saves are quite low (although i'm not sure how the stack up against most rogues). I'm concerned about whether I will remain helpful to the group in combat in late levels if i pigeon-hole myself into rapiers and shortswords or if its worth a feat somewhere to pickup something (Thinking scimitar or khopesh-- leaning away from khopesh just based on prices since they're the cookiecutter choice).



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 222
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 20
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 12
Dexterity 16 26
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 14 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 34
Bluff 2 6
Concentration 2 6
Diplomacy 6 31
Disable Device 5 35
Haggle 6 31
Heal 0 4
Hide 3 12
Intimidate 2 6
Jump 5 28
Listen 0 6
Move Silently 3 12
Open Lock 7 35
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 5
Search 5 35
Spot 4 33
Swim 1 5
Tumble 4 13
Use Magic Device 6 29

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
*******This skill pattern is repeated throughout the entirity of the build*******
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Perception II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Search II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Disable Device


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 17 (Rogue)

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Negotiator


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Cheat Death
Enhancement: Elven Perception III
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III





thanks for all your help!

[Therigar]

I have a drow rogue on Cannith that is to be my haggle character.

I took a level of bard for the cheap L1 chant spell and a level of fighter for extra feats. There is absolutely no reason to be pure-class rogue given the poor capstone.

UMD and a planar gird take care of all the other skill boost needs during haggle meaning you'll get really good value when you sell to the vendors.

You could go bard 1/rogue 19 and get the final d6 backstab damage. Or, you could go bard 1/ranger 2/rogue 17 for free access to first level twf, bow strength and favored enemy. I'm going bard 1/fighter 2/rogue 17 and will pick up twf and itwf with the fighter feats.

[Zorminster]

Okay, that was certainly one of my questions related to this build- how bad is the capstone really? I was thinking of getting it just as buffer zone for when I screw up. If it's really totally worthless then I would agree that this should be a multiclassed build, likely including at least 1 bard for the focusing chant and the fighter or ranger levels would certainly help with BAB and feats.

1) Fighter would provide me with with 2 class feats. Presumably i could use this for Finesse and TWF. This would mean taking toughness as a level 1 rogue. I'd also get slightly higher HP from fighter (4).

2) Ranger would net me TWF, favored enemy, and a sprint boost. Picks up some more reflex save the fighter wouldnt have

That's a pretty hard choice. favored enemy wouldn't be a huge selling point to me and the sprint boost is icing. The fighter has more in the feat area to draw me to it- the toughness would help early on and my reflex should already be good from all the rogue levels i'm taking.

The skills will require a slight bit of balancing either way I go, but shouldn't be of great impact on the final character. How bad is it to lose the last d6 of sneak attack damage in terms of end-game utility?

Also a question i've never seen much discussion on and i feel it's likely of importance: What alignments are generally considered the most useful? I know certain items are alignment restricted but i don't know enough to know which of those items i'm really going to want to use. I've been trending towards Chaotic Good for most of my characters. I figure i need to be able to use good aligned weapons and most enemies aren't actually chaotic so i should pickup some damage there as well. Although I suspect this build will end up using lots of status effect weapons and not so much digging around for weapons with pure damage modifiers.


Also- thoughts on the starting stat allocation?

another edit: does perform still require 3 ranks to inspire courage as per the DDOwiki entry? or when i take my level of bard can i leave perform at 0 ranks?

Also also- I read somewhere that diplomacy doesnt have an animation to use it and therefore doesnt interrupt the attack chain. is this accurate? It seems that everytime i use diplo i stop attacking for at least 1 second, probably 2 while the animation goes up over their head and fades.


bah, also also also : I'd read that quickdraw may also speed the pulling out of wands and scrolls. It seems logical since they fit the weapon slot but I wanted to verify. Also- does this seem like a viable choice as a means to improve my own surviveability (faster wand whipping/ healscrolls on the go) or would i be better suited taking something else in its stead? The question arises at level 6 of the multiclass build i'm working up. Rog/Ftr/Rog/Brd/Rog/Rog Tough/Finesse/TWF/?

[Therigar]

Here are the starting stats on my drow:

STR 13
DEX 15
CON 11
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 17

Realize that my primary focus is the haggle so CHA is a bit high.

Why odd numbers? I figure I'll get racial enhancements, class enhancements, tomes and items to boost things. Then I'll get stat increases every 4 levels.

I calculate out where I want my ending stats and then work backwards to a starting number. So, STR 13 with +3 tome, +1 class enhancement, +5 level stat increases and +6 item = STR 28. DEX 15 with +3 tome, +2 racial enhancements, +3 class enhancements, +1 exceptiona bonus from shroud weapon and +6 item = DEX 30. CON 11 with +3 tome and +6 item = CON 20. Well, you get the idea.

I always plan on the +3 tome knowing a +1 will do until I can get one. I also always plan on at least a +1 exceptional bonus from shroud weapons even though I know I can get up to +3.

Hope that helps.

Edit: You need to put points into perform to use inspire courage. I did not do that and left it at 0.

[neesletweed]

i have only one suggestion. starting with that much charisma i would take 2 levels of pali. it's a major increase to saves and you'll get all martial weapon proficiencies. level 18 rogue enhancements will still be available to your build. don't forget you'll also have an emergency lay on hands as well wich should hit for about 80hp.

[Zorminster]

How do you figure on your end goals for stats? I'm still new so i don't have the experience to know what i'm shooting for.

I figure Dex as high as possible since it effects my open locks (so i can slack on skill for jump and balance if need be), a moderately decent str (to prevent encumbrance issues, allow for some extra damage, and help boost jump). I figure on leaving the charisma lower since i'm not shooting for exceptional haggle values.

Are there some breakpoints for my main and secondary stats i should be aiming towards?

With your lower dex and con than my build- have you found yourself really hurting for the extra 40 HP you could have @ 20 or the additional +1 to hit you could have early game?

[GlassCannon]

I still prefer the STR based Khopesh/Pick using Assassin III...

[Zorminster]

I still prefer the STR based Khopesh/Pick using Assassin III...

thats nice and all but not at all related to what i'm trying to accomplish with this character.

Do you feel the bonus +1 to hit/damage would justify the 3 points in perform at the cost of a slightly lower balance/jump?

edit: you also are putting levels into str- are you not a finesse build?

[Zorminster]

Okay, heres another take on it. This time as a Rogue 17/ Ftr 2 / Bard 1

a slightly higher fort save but that's immediately countered by realizing i've not hit the BAB 15 to grant a 5 attack. Seems like it's a better character in most respects. i've got 31 floating AP because i only wanted to key in the most key enhancements so i get them as soon as they're available. I figure with the floating AP i can pickup disable/search/spot enhancements as needed or if i'm okay without i can pickup haggle or other stuff.

edit: checked prices and it looks like i can grab a +1 int tome to eat at 3. should allow me to slide some points around and get 3 ranks into perform for inspire courage to help out my combat profile. Also means i'll need to flip-flop the bard and 2nd level of rogue.

Tear it apart guys :)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Chaotic Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 17 Rogue \ 1 Bard)
Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 60
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 20
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 14
Dexterity 17 27
Constitution 13 13
Intelligence 13 13
Wisdom 9 9
Charisma 13 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 7 17 19
Bluff 1 1 3
Concentration 1 1 3
Diplomacy 5 24 26
Disable Device 5 24 33
Haggle 5 24 26
Heal -1 -1 1
Hide 3 8 10
Intimidate 1 1 3
Jump 4 23 25
Listen -1 -1 3
Move Silently 3 8 10
Open Lock 7 31 35
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 3
Search 5 24 34
Spot 3 22 29
Swim 1 2 4
Tumble 4 9 11
Use Magic Device 5 24 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Disable Device


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Search


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX

[Therigar]

How do you figure on your end goals for stats?

<snip>

With your lower dex and con than my build- have you found yourself really hurting for the extra 40 HP you could have @ 20 or the additional +1 to hit you could have early game?

I've been playing since '06 on 2 different accounts so the lower DEX and CON are less of an issue for me than they might be for others simply because of my experience with the game. However, you are right that the numbers could be a bit higher which is why I made a point of saying that I put a lot more into CHA than you probably want to put there.

Now, to the question of end stats.

I always figure that I can have a +6 item on any stat I want or need. This is the current max stat boost available in the game. On top of that I know that +3 tomes drop and by the time I'm L16+ I should be getting some -- even if it is just random drops. Because +3 tomes are the current max (I know +4 is supposed to exist but I'm not brave enough to count on them) and because stats give bonuses on even numbers I know 2 things.

First, if I have to make do with a +1 tome then I'm only +1 off from what I'd have with the +3 tome. Second, +1 tomes are available in the DDO store -- so if I really need them I can get them.

The rest of it is knowing what character races and classes provide as stat enhancements. Drow get DEX enhancements. Rangers get DEX enhancements. Fighters get STR enhancements.

This gives me 90% of what I need to know about a build. There are 2 other factors.

1. It is possible to get exceptional stat bonuses on shroud crafted weapons (and now on some of the new rings that drop late in the game). If I really need a point or two or three more on a stat I can make a weapon that will give me that exceptional bonus. From experience I know that the practical limit is that I can affect 1, maybe under the right situations 2, stats. So I pick the one that seems most needful.

2. I'm going to get 5 stat increases as I level up.

When I make a character I decide where I want those 5 stat increases to go. One option is to put them into DEX as you are planning to do. That is great when combined with the weapon finesse feat and also if planning a build that will forgo armor. The down side is that if STR is too low there will be times when you won't contribute much to the damage due to monsters having fortification in some quests.

STR lets you do enough raw damage to register and that triggers some of the additional damage. So, in my case I decided to put the level increases into STR. I certainly don't do that in every build but it is what I decided to do in this case.

Now I have all my best case modifiers to every stat.

STR +6 item + 3 tome + 1 fighter enhancement + 5 level increases = +15
DEX +6 item + 3 tome + 3 rogue enhancements + 2 drow enhancements = +14
CON +6 item + 3 tome = +9
INT +6 item + 3 tome = +9
WIS +6 item + 3 tome = +9
CHA +6 item + 3 tome = +9

Note that I'm only taking 1 bard level. If I took 2 bard levels I could get a bard enhancement for +1 CHA.

Now I adjust my stats so that the final numbers will all be even.

If I have +15 STR then I set my STR at 11 or 13 or 15. I keep an eye out on how many build points these are eating up. I may settle for 13 instead of 15 or even 17 in order to save build points. I accept that I'll be -1 or -2 on my to hit and damage numbers as a result.

Once I'm done I see what build points I have left over and try to figure out where best to put them. This is when I start looking at exceptional bonuses. Or, at using a +2 tome instead of a +1/+3 tome.

As I worked thru this it just balanced out that I had enough build points left to push DEX to an odd number. So, I plan for an exceptional bonus to bring it back to an even number (odd start + 14 = odd number) knowing I can get a +2 tome to tide me over in that stat if I really need to.

Hope that makes sense.

[William_the_Bat]

One thing to consider, they aren't done adding capstones yet. If they come out with an uber skill boost capstone you might end up smacking yourself for splashing. Of course, that's speculation. The sure thing based on what we know now is to splash (I like the pally splash for the uber saves, monk splash might be interesting for the AC and feat)

[Zorminster]

Well, so far so good. Level 5, just finished delaras.

Been having trouble with spotting/finding/disabling traps a bit but that's mainly because i was in STK @ 2, hard STK@ 3, ad nauseum. Gunna pickup some new +5/7 gear for the various tasks and that should help out significantly.

Attack speeds are still painfully slow and my concern relating to being 1 BAB short of my final attack hook is growing. Considering an additional level of fighter to get the 15 BAB i need to get a 5th hook. Would probably squeeze it in sooner rather than later for the BAB and HP.

Survivability so far seems good @ ~85hp @ 5th level and i'm wearing some +2 studded so i'm right on about 20 AC. Careful use of diplomacy has kept me alive fairly often- though I did learn the terrible reality of 'I diplo, You diplo, I die.'

Edit: Dropped 30 Kpp and ate a +1 int @ 3. This gives me enough extra skills that I felt okay putting 3 into perform for the +1 hit/dmg 1/rest

edit2: @6 switching weapon focus piercing for skill focus disable which I would have taken at 12- was blowing traps in elite STK last night.