Any plans on fixing the inequity of intelligence tomes?

[zarlokk]

Any plans to make the skill bonus retroactive? Probably the easiest would be an option to use them during a level up and gain the bonus skills you otherwise would have missed. If not, what is the point in selling tomes but level capping when you can buy the tomes? The +2 and higher tomes aren't level capped, are they? So what's the reason for that?

[Lerincho]

skill points should NOT be retroactive in the first place. you ate the tome after you had already leveled, therefore were not eligible for them in the first place. you are eligible for all upcoming skill points, as is proper.

[zarlokk]

skill points should NOT be retroactive in the first place. you ate the tome after you had already leveled, therefore were not eligible for them in the first place. you are eligible for all upcoming skill points, as is proper.

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

[tihocan]

The main reason why they are not retroactive is because it's the D&D rules. You can argue with the rules all you want, but I doubt there's a plan to change them.

[Borror0]

Whichever respec option they add later on will probably fix the problem (at least partially).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

The reason it is done this was is this is consistent with D&D 3.5 rules. Given that this is a game based on 3.5, that makes it a valid reason. You don't like the rules fine, but there is a basis for what is being done. It also makes sense from a game standpoint if you understand what these items do and how D&D levelling works.

You "learn" skills while levelling based on your int at the time. You can't go back and learn more in grade 2 when you are 20 just because you became smarter, you are no longer in grade 2.

A con tome on the other hand teaches you how to improve your body. If I begin working out today and achieve level X of fitness then I have endurance (which is translated in HP in D&D) based on that level I have no. What I had when I was a teenager doesn't matter at all.

It makes perfect sense.

[Lerincho]

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

Constitution does not give you as much benefit during advancement as intellegence does. It has LONG been stated that intellegence items will not EVER add to your skill points. Skill points are based on your BASE INT SKILL AT THE TIME OF ADVANCEMENT. Always has been, always will be.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

No, the argument is not completely bogus, as it is the single issue causing the greatest amount of coding difficulty for character respeccing. Hence, now tomes have minimum levels, so that now, they can code it to account for the skill points for those that ate Tomes.

[NinetyNineTails]

Response fail. 'The rules say that it doesn't work that way' is not a legitimate response to 'the rules are messed-up and should be changed as to be more fair and interesting'.

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

[zarlokk]

The reason it is done this was is this is consistent with D&D 3.5 rules. Given that this is a game based on 3.5, that makes it a valid reason. You don't like the rules fine, but there is a basis for what is being done.

I haven't played 3.5 and it's been awhile since I played at all actually, but from what I recall:
Hitpoints are supposed to be somewhat random, like a caster getting "1d4 +con bonus) That doesn't happen currently. Also, and also int and con fom items would increase skills/hit points alloted on level up too.

The way it works currently just doesn't make any sense is virtually guaranteed to **** off new players. Also doesn't make sense that you can't even buy a tome from the store unless you are a certain level already. "****er offer" part two.

[zarlokk]

No, the argument is not completely bogus, as it is the single issue causing the greatest amount of coding difficulty for character respeccing. Hence, now tomes have minimum levels, so that now, they can code it to account for the skill points for those that ate Tomes.

What are the min levels and do they coincide with the levels the store offers them?

[Lerincho]

What are the min levels and do they coincide with the levels the store offers them?

+1 ml 2
+2 ml 7

[eonfreon]

Response fail. 'The rules say that it doesn't work that way' is not a legitimate response to 'the rules are messed-up and should be changed as to be more fair and interesting'.

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

I've always been pretty much in favor of making things easier for new players to many extents. I would like to see 32 point just be the norm, just because of this perception problem. But worrying about advantages that veterans have is a waste of time. That advantage came from playing the game. And people have made it out to be more then it truly is.

Of course it sucks to be a "noob" in any new game. But if you prove that you're not a "noob" but rather just new and inexperienced, a "newb", then you'll learn quick enough and eventually will enjoy the advantages of having played the game.

The suggestion about Int Tomes has been brought up many times, don't let people fool you that long-time players didn't complain about it too. Turbine has always maintained it had to do with the coding. The introduction of minimum levels and supposed up-coming respec implementation may be an answer to this.

[zarlokk]

+1 ml 2
+2 ml 7

Answer is no, they do not currently offer them in the store on the min lvl. None of this makes any sense.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I haven't played 3.5 and it's been awhile since I played at all actually, but from what I recall:
Hitpoints are supposed to be somewhat random, like a caster getting "1d4 +con bonus) That doesn't happen currently. Also, and also int and con fom items would increase skills/hit points alloted on level up too.

The way it works currently just doesn't make any sense is virtually guaranteed to **** off new players. Also doesn't make sense that you can't even buy a tome from the store unless you are a certain level already. "****er offer" part two.

You are correct that the base HP is a random roll, we get full credit for the die here and don't have to roll, one reason HP stats are so inflated.

The D&D rules however do change you HP whenever your con changes, up or down and so we are being consistant.

If you get 1 pt of int damage you don't have to give up a skill point, but you do give up HP, the same is true in reverse.

[eonfreon]

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

Oh come on, who gave Zarlokk negative rep? That's stupid, he hasn't brought up things that haven't been questioned before. Just because he didn't accept the "it's the way things are" argument?

Come on, we all know this has been an issue for a long time. That it is probably some of the reasoning about making Tomes have Min levels now.

Zarlokk, the real answer to your question is: it's been difficult to code and hadn't been a priority before.

[zarlokk]

You are correct that the base HP is a random roll, we get full credit for the die here and don't have to roll, one reason HP stats are so inflated.

The D&D rules however do change you HP whenever your con changes, up or down and so we are being consistant.

If you get 1 pt of int damage you don't have to give up a skill point, but you do give up HP, the same is true in reverse.

The only thing consistent is the inconsistency.

[nytewolf]

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

Your post implys that the vets have some advantage over the new players. While it is true we vets have 32 point builds and have some twinking capability its because we gound out our 1750 favor and ran countless quests getting where we are today. Give it 6 months to a year or possibly even less and you might see this is not some Us "New players" versus Them "Veteran players". We all play the same game its just some of us have been playing longer.

Not to mention Int tomes really only benefit alts where skills are important.

[eonfreon]

The only thing consistent is the inconsistency.

LOL. yep.

[Hendrik]

The only thing consistent is the inconsistency.

Unless you have a basic understand of DDO/D&D.

[zarlokk]

Unless you have a basic understand of DDO/D&D.

You forget that a lot of the people here actually do, and they are all laughing at you right now.

[Visty]

Answer is no, they do not currently offer them in the store on the min lvl. None of this makes any sense.

considering his numbers were wrong, and +1s are minlvl3 and you can buy them at lvl3, its wai

[zarlokk]

Your post implys that the vets have some advantage over the new players. While it is true we vets have 32 point builds and have some twinking capability its because we gound out our 1750 favor and ran countless quests getting where we are today. Give it 6 months to a year or possibly even less and you might see this is not some Us "New players" versus Them "Veteran players". We all play the same game its just some of us have been playing longer.

Not to mention Int tomes really only benefit alts where skills are important.

I'm sure there are plenty of multis out there that would be virtually made or broken by that additional int boost. Further, every pure class I've played has 2 virutally required skills, and often a highly desirable third one that would be ideal to raise every level. And you are wrong btw about the veteran thing. If they now have a level req and did not before, that throws a colossal imbalancing monkey wrench into the works that could never be rectified by any amount of play time.

[eonfreon]

I'm sure there are plenty of multis out there that would be virtually made or broken by that additional int boost. Further, every pure class I've played has 2 virutally required skills, and often a highly desirable third one that would be ideal to raise every level. And you are wrong btw about the veteran thing. If they now have a level req and did not before, that throws a colossal imbalancing monkey wrench into the works that could never be rectified by any amount of play time.

The min level sucks but it is a way to allow them to perhaps respec things like skill points in the future.
But yes, it does give a little advantage to the Vets, but not much, and if a Vet ever wants to Respec in the future, he may actually lose Skill points if he ate a +2 Tome at creation that will now be seen as Min Lvl 7, and the skill points from levels 2-7 will be lost.

I suppose a Vet who ate a Pre-Min lvl Tome can have as much as 6 more skill points. It can be a big deal, but I doubt it will be gamebreaking.

But for my 18th Level Pally who still hasn't eaten a Int Tome, a possible Respec might give me the Skill Points I "lost".

[zarlokk]

considering his numbers were wrong, and +1s are minlvl3 and you can buy them at lvl3, its wai

LAst time I checked (like a day or two ago) you could not buy them at min lvl. As I was level 8 and could not buy any +2, only +1.

[Aumvaar]

I've never heard of an increase to INT giving a retroactive increase to skill points. That's not to say it can't happen ever, because a PnP DM can certainly decide to do so, but I've never, ever seen a DM make that decision.

Turbine, however, chose not to do it that way. Will they change their minds in the future? Perhaps, perhaps not. If I were betting on it tho, I'd bet "not."

[Hendrik]

You forget that a lot of the people here actually do, and they are all laughing at you right now.

"When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

Now who is laughing?

May want to get familiar with the basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm) of DDO/D&D.

[NinetyNineTails]

Oh come on, who gave Zarlokk negative rep? That's stupid, he hasn't brought up things that haven't been questioned before. Just because he didn't accept the "it's the way things are" argument?

Come on, we all know this has been an issue for a long time. That it is probably some of the reasoning about making Tomes have Min levels now.

Zarlokk, the real answer to your question is: it's been difficult to code and hadn't been a priority before.

+1 rep for something in desperately short supply on teh intartubes; perspective.

[Visty]

LAst time I checked (like a day or two ago) you could not buy them at min lvl. As I was level 8 and could not buy any +2, only +1.

well, there are no +2 in the store afaik, which would explain it

[NinetyNineTails]

"When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

Now who is laughing?

May want to get familiar with the basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm) of DDO/D&D.

If DDO were D&D 3.5, I wouldn't be looking into scimitars for my next melee char. Seriously, scimitars?

[Xaxx]

Response fail. 'The rules say that it doesn't work that way' is not a legitimate response to 'the rules are messed-up and should be changed as to be more fair and interesting'.

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

we were all newbs once, because your a newb now instead of 3 years ago, you expect special treatment... LOL

[zarlokk]

"When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

Now who is laughing?

May want to get familiar with the basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm) of DDO/D&D.

Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist. Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist.

[Visty]

Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist. Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist.

you get extra hp for con items and you never, not even in pnp, get skills for wearing an int item
also the random hp isnt here cause our dm houseruled it for max hp

[zarlokk]

we were all newbs once, because your a newb now instead of 3 years ago, you expect special treatment... LOL

Umm, it was the "newbs" three years ago who got to use non level restricted int tomes.

[Aumvaar]

Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist.

How many of each are you wearing? In general, you only get credit for one of each, & only the highest will count, so, for example, if you have 2 items that each give you +1 Con, you're only going to see +1.

If you're not even seeing the bonuses from one +1 item, then you're bugged & should report it.


Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist

While I can't quote it directly, IIRC there are provisions in the D&D guidelines for players to get the full HP score every level, rather than dicing for random hit points. NWN, on easy mode, does that as well.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The only thing consistent is the inconsistency.


It's completely consistant with the logic of what the tomes are doing to you when you read them according to lore. This isn't just a video game powerup cube, its supposed to have its roots in a game that attaches meaning and lore to things.

[eonfreon]

Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist. Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist.

It's not worth turning it into a DDO/D&D Basics arguments. DDO is not 3,5 PnP, it is based on it. But really matters is the D&D "feel" and "look".
As someone who hadn't played D&D since 1990, I didn't even know there were 3.5 Rules. Last I saw were 3.0 rules. And it didn't matter. I came for the look.
The plain fact is DDO was based on the D&D game that was CURRENT when it was programmed and released.
I can see some new kid playing DDO after having played only D&D 4.0 and going "where's my healing surge?" or something.
This game is very loosely based on 3.5 and getting even more loose. Which to an old AD&Der like me is far less of a big deal then some of these whipper snappers and their fancy 3.5 Rules.
The game is less and less like 3.5. Even 4.0 is sneaking in.

[moonprophet]

...for 'fixing' this because this problem does not exist. If you were cocerned over the fact that there is a level cap on new tomes, I would say, yes, this stinks because folks that were able to twink their level 1 with a +2 int tome are at an advantage. However, saying in general that I should gain retroactive benefit from eating a tome is rediculous, has never been the case, and SHOULD never be the case. And, as the same rules apply for all stat tomes, there is no 'inequity". Inequity==unequal. This is not the case in this situation.

[NinetyNineTails]

we were all newbs once, because your a newb now instead of 3 years ago, you expect special treatment... LOL

Frankly, I worry about people who spend a lot of time thinking things like 'I suffered through x bad design decision, therefore everybody else playing the game should suffer likewise'. Not exactly a forward looking perspective, neh? I fully support the idea that Turbine should have avoided the whole int-tome-twinking and 28/32 build design SNAFU in the first place and spared their playerbase the annoyance of dealing with it since 2006. But lacking a time machine, I can't really help you back then. I can advocate for positive change now.

Also, why do you hate the English language and like to see it in pain? Did a verb touch you in a bad place as a child?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist. Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist.

Well actually con/int items are part of the game, you will find those items in the treasure list in the standard DMG. There are other things that are made up in this game, but that isn't one of them.

Changing random hitpoints to either "average" or "max" rolls are standard varient options for DMs as well.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's not worth turning it into a DDO/D&D Basics arguments. DDO is not 3,5 PnP, it is based on it. But really matters is the D&D "feel" and "look".
As someone who hadn't played D&D since 1990, I didn't even know there were 3.5 Rules. Last I saw were 3.0 rules. And it didn't matter. I came for the look.
The plain fact is DDO was based on the D&D game that was CURRENT when it was programmed and released.
I can see some new kid playing DDO after having played only D&D 4.0 and going "where's my healing surge?" or something.
This game is very loosely based on 3.5 and getting even more loose. Which to an old AD&Der like me is far less of a big deal then some of these whipper snappers and their fancy 3.5 Rules.
The game is less and less like 3.5. Even 4.0 is sneaking in.

Almost every time there is a balance issue it is because they ignored the 3.x ruleset.

[enochiancub]

OP, just curious but why are you always so snotty and aggressive?

As for the why on the point rollback. The answer the devs have consistently given has been "It's very difficult to code" get used to that response. It's right up there with "It's coming" and "Soon"

For things like Int and Con, I can't fathom why one should get retroactive benefits.

[eonfreon]

...for 'fixing' this because this problem does not exist. If you were cocerned over the fact that there is a level cap on new tomes, I would say, yes, this stinks because folks that were able to twink their level 1 with a +2 int tome are at an advantage. However, saying in general that I should gain retroactive benefit from eating a tome is rediculous, has never been the case, and SHOULD never be the case. And, as the same rules apply for all stat tomes, there is no 'inequity". Inequity==unequal. This is not the case in this situation.

I'm sorry but the tomes are not equal. By the reasoning behind Int Tomes then Con Tomes should only add 1 HP per level AFTER you eat the Tome and not grant you retroactive HP for the levels before you ate the tome.

In other words, if you eat a +2 Tome and raise your Con from 14 to 16 at level 7, then from levels 8-20 you get an extra hp per level, but you would not gain the 7 hp from Level 1-7.

[zarlokk]

you get extra hp for con items and you never, not even in pnp, get skills for wearing an int item
also the random hp isnt here cause our dm houseruled it for max hp

Did you house rule out character rebuilding, too? Does anyone care if you did?

[Timjc86]

As Borror stated, they will probably address this if/when the add respecs. The devs said before that an issue with skill respecs was that they didn't track what levels characters ate tomes. And then minimum levels appeared on tomes.

I expect that if/when they add respecs, they will apply any tomes at the minimum level. So if a level 20 character with an 8 base intelligence eats a +4 tome and then respecs, int would be:
Level 0: 8
Level 1: 9
Level 7: 10
Level ??: 11 ?? = min level for eating +3 tomes
Level ???: 12 ??? = min level for eating +4 tomes

That seems to make good sense and to be consistent with recent changes. However, "making sense" means it will probably get done another way....

Edit: Clarity.

[seldarin]

Response fail. 'The rules say that it doesn't work that way' is not a legitimate response to 'the rules are messed-up and should be changed as to be more fair and interesting'.

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

Us veteran players that you talk about were noobs 3 + years ago. Back then +2 tomes were only available as part of an end raid Vault of Night, or if you managed to do so, after hitting 1750 favour and back then that was pretty tight at cap of lvl 10. Do you think that veteran players signed up for DDO and BAM we had all the twinking gear etc. NO. That has come from accumlated play over 3 + years. Should a player heading into a game now be on the same footing as a player with 3 + years behind them, NO. A new player heading into the game now, should experience exactly what everyone else did 3 + years ago. Only difference is they dont, they have things a lot easier.

[eonfreon]

Almost every time there is a balance issue it is because they ignored the 3.x ruleset.

So you say and I must believe you, but with a grain of salt. Don't care to learn 3.5. I played AD&D and now I play DDO.

And if I ever play PnP again it will be by the AD&D House Rules that me and my friends played with, that was perfectly balanced ;).

And we all know the + to skill points has been brought up before and it's been said to be mostly a matter of code.
Which we speculate has something to do with why they've put in min levels and are have mentioned that they work on repecs.

I'm sorry. This isn't 3.5 D&D, it's a Video Game that was once based on what was once the current implementation of a Role-Playing game. If the appeal of this game was solely that it was based on 3.5 D&D it would not been very attractive to me.
Things like Skill Points are fine in a video game. But for a role-playing game, really? The Halfling can jump higher because he put more points into Jump? Skills just added something that wasn't necessary in my AD&D games. I was perfectly capable of judging a situation and assigning a difficulty for the Halfling to succeed. I didn't need to look at a Jump Score.

[Visty]

Did you house rule out character rebuilding, too? Does anyone care if you did?

well as our dm is turbine and we are playing turbines game, yes i guess alot of ppl care

and character rebuilding is coming in the future

[Mercules]

Umm, it was the "newbs" three years ago who got to use non level restricted int tomes.

Yes, they got non-level restricted Tomes. Do you know how they got them? Running end game quests over and over and over and over and over again and praying to some deity that they managed to pull an unbound Tome that was for the correct stat or that they could trade with some other lucky person who had the correct stat and wanted theirs.

This last year was about the only time you could find a +1 Tome fairly easy but mostly because we were running around with level 16 characters repeating quests strictly for items and had nothing else to do. Most of our characters did not benefit from an Int Tome at level 1, very few players did.

You can buy one in a store paying for it with points you can earn wandering around playing or just dropping cash on it. I think you can live with the level restricted Tomes.



Where is additional points for con/int items I'm wearing? doesn't exist. Where are my random dX hitpoints? Doesn't exist.

Hey look, Con and Int items. Shall I find you some more examples?

Ioun Stones
Deep red Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity 8,000 gp
Incandescent blue Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom 8,000 gp
Pale blue Rhomboid +2 enhancement bonus to Strength 8,000 gp
Pink Rhomboid +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution 8,000 gp
Pink and green Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma 8,000 gp
Scarlet and blue Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence


We also don't use the "Random Stats" option for character building here, instead we use the point buy system. There are rules in the DMs guide for 3.5 that states you simply allow all characters to have the max HPs for their HD when they level instead of rolling. Why do that? Because people got tired of having their level 8 Wizard die from one arrow hit because they rolled 1s on their HPs every level.

zarrlok,

It is really looking like you are simply going out and looking for things to complain about. If so I don't think DDO is the game for you. In fact I don't think there is a game for you since there will be rules in every game you won't like or that "Don't make sense."

[Shaamis]

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

The philisophical reason why the stat increase of inherant Int bonuses arent retroactive, is because the way D&D interprets how a character learns as they gain experience, and increase in level.

A characters total sum of Intellect at the time he is performing skills is what is being used when he is in that adventure, therefore he uses a different method of solution, than one who has a lower, or higher intelligence. No other stat in the d20 system is logically and philisophically postured that way.

Constitution is a different matter, because Con represents the total sum "health" and sturdiness of a character, and a retroactive hp boost for a higher con (gained by an inherant bonus ONLY) would be a logical conclusion.

You are asking for Intelligence, and what is GAINED by Intelligence to be magically rewound/fastforwarded, to provide a benefit that makes no logical sense, even though in the Metagaming world we play in, it does.

Items that grant an "artificial" or temporary bonuses to statistics(i.e. when the item is taken off, teh bonuses go away), is not equal to actually HAVING that intelligence, it's more of a crutch than a benefit, such as having a calculator for a test.

Sorry, /not signed. leave it as it is in core rules.

[Mercules]

But for a role-playing game, really? The Halfling can jump higher because he put more points into Jump? Skills just added something that wasn't necessary in my AD&D games. I was perfectly capable of judging a situation and assigning a difficulty for the Halfling to succeed.

You are why I play GURPS for a role-playing game. GM arbitrarily assigns a difficulty... and I roll my eyes. I like the level of detail and knowing that my success of failure isn't based on how a GM decides things might be but instead based off of how I built my character, usually based off a well built background explaining their abilities.

Yes, the Halfling can jump higher because he practiced Jumping, has trained his reflexes and muscles to do so, and has learned how best to move to get more height. It isn't a stupid concept since it happens to be true in real life, a trained Gymnast can jump higher than someone of equal physique with no training.

[DoctorWhofan]

Your post implys that the vets have some advantage over the new players. While it is true we vets have 32 point builds and have some twinking capability its because we gound out our 1750 favor and ran countless quests getting where we are today. Give it 6 months to a year or possibly even less and you might see this is not some Us "New players" versus Them "Veteran players". We all play the same game its just some of us have been playing longer.

Not to mention Int tomes really only benefit alts where skills are important.

Agreed. The new players now are starting out better off than we did. Tomes??? Bah.

[RACRGUY]

The easiest way for me to explain it, is to just look at how each rule is written.


CONSTITUTION (CON)
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.
You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
• Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
• Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
• Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.




INTELLIGENCE (INT)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It's also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
• The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.
• The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.)
• Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.

The difference in the two are how they are worded. The con modifier increases the hitpoints a character HAS, while the Int modifier increases the skills the character GAINS(will get at subsequent levels.)

[Rheebus]

Making INT tome bonuses to skills retroactive at the next leveling event would pretty much solve Turbine's skill respecing problem. If INT skill bonuses were retroactive, it woudn't matter when the toon ate that tome. You get the total points anyway. It makes sense to me. I wouldn't mind the change. If more skills were useful, this might make more of a difference. It almost diesn't matter how many skill points I have, as long as I have 2 to raise my UMD, I'm happy.

Rheebus

[Vormaerin]

This argument is innately flawed. +1 skill point is far more valuable than +1 hp. Claiming "ooh, I get this minor advantage means I should get this much bigger advantage, too" is not a valid argument.

+2 to Con from a tome adds +1 hp per level and +1 to Fort saves. +2 Int adds +1 to all Int based skill checks, and +1 future skill points. Int also gives Wizards a bunch of advantages that are fully retroactive. Int is definitely not inferior to Con currently. Its doesn't need to be improved for balance or consistency reasons.

[Steiner-Davion]

I haven't played 3.5 and it's been awhile since I played at all actually, but from what I recall:
Hitpoints are supposed to be somewhat random, like a caster getting "1d4 +con bonus) That doesn't happen currently. Also, and also int and con fom items would increase skills/hit points alloted on level up too.

The way it works currently just doesn't make any sense is virtually guaranteed to **** off new players. Also doesn't make sense that you can't even buy a tome from the store unless you are a certain level already. "****er offer" part two.

The reason why you do not get bonus skill points for a TEMPORARY increase to your intelligence stat from equipped items and Enhancements, is quite simple. What happens to your skills when that piece of equipment is removed or that enhancement is removed? It would require a lot of time and effort to efficiently code the game to account for all of the possibilities and variations. And do you seriously want to spend time and energy adjusting your skill points when you swap out an enhancement or a piece of equipment? And how would the game keep track of which skills you increased with your normal allotment of skill points and which ones you incrased with your temporary skill points? Are you beginning to see why this might be complicated?

And as was already pointed out, but maybe not quite so eligantly is the simple fact, that when they game was first launched, thee character database did not record what level you used Intelligence tomes at, so there was no way to determine how many additional skill points you SHOULD get. You cannot go back in time and learn new things, but you can learn new things in the future. So withthe introduction of DDO:U Turbine decided to draw a line in the sand, so that they could begin to tackle the respec question. That line was the introduction of Minimum levels for Tomes of all kinds. I and I think most people would infer from this that if you had a level 16 character prior to the launch of DDO:U who had used any tomes, regardless of the level they were actually used at, whether you werelucky enough to have them available when the character was first created, or you used them the day before DDO:U went live, the GAME will assume you had used them at their new minimum level, lvl 3 for +1 and lvl 7 for +2, I do not know the level for +3 tomes though. I would also think that the database will now record at what level you use each and every tome from this point forward.

But this does raise one really VALID question, what happens if over the course of your character life, you used a +1 tome then later a +2 tome, then later a +3 prior to DDO:U/Mod 9 going live? Did the game track that your character used a +1 tome, as well as a +2, and a +3 tome when they did not have minimum levels?

For example, I create a Fighter character with a 12 INT for a +0 modifier or no extra skill points, and he gets 3 skill points/level as a base. I then used a +1 INT tome immediately after creation, bringing my INT to 13 for a +1 modifier, so that I would get more skill points at level 2 and beyond. I then used a +3 INT tome at level 9 bringing my INT to 15 for a +2 Modifer.

Level / Skill points w/o Tome / Skill Points with Tome
1/3/-
2/3/4
3/3/4
4/3/4
5/3/4
6/3/4
7/3/4
8/3/4
9/3/4 Total "Bonus" skill points to this point: 8
10/3/5
11/3/5
12/3/5
13/3/5
14/3/5
15/3/5
16/3/5

Total Skill Points through level 16 prior to DDO:U without using any Tomes: 48
Total Skill points through level 16 prior to DDO:U after using the 2 Tomes: 70

If DDO:U does not record the level at which you record every tome, or if it overwrites the data concerning inferior tomes, than we could be loosing out on a significant number of skill points due to the new minimum levels.

[chton13]

Oh come on, who gave Zarlokk negative rep? That's stupid, he hasn't brought up things that haven't been questioned before. Just because he didn't accept the "it's the way things are" argument?

Come on, we all know this has been an issue for a long time. That it is probably some of the reasoning about making Tomes have Min levels now.

Zarlokk, the real answer to your question is: it's been difficult to code and hadn't been a priority before.

I doubt the negative rep came from this thread, take a look around and you'll see that the attitude evinced in this thread is apparently the way he interacts on these forums.

The rule does fall under the 3.5 rules but I find Turbine's application of said rule set to be highly arbitrary so it doesn't really make it a slam dunk argument.

[Impaqt]

Then constitution bonuses should work the same way. Further, then things like int items should increase your skills when you level up. Ya, go equip some 6 int stuff when you level up for uber skills.

There is no reason not to make them retroactive. None. No character should be able to be born with a magical tome that increases their int by 4 points, or even 1 point, and yet not others. Completely bogus argument.

Your comparing different Mechanics.....

When you eat a Con Tome at Level 7 you didnt somehow magically Receive exra hit points at level 1-6. THey were noT there. THat one time in Tangleroot where you died at -11. Your still dead..... They are just there going Forward....

Enhancement bonus dont work for anything while levelingup. You cant use a Dex item to get TWF. You cant use a STR Item to get Power attack....

When you eat an Int tme. you get smarter at That point in Time. Going Forward in your progreession you gain the added benefits of that Intelligence boost.

I can only assume the change in Minimum levels is somehow going to address this issue somehow when it comes to Respecs..... So maybe eating that Int tome at level 17 is going to aply at level 7? Of course, this actually hurts anyone who at that Tome at Level 1.... No matter how it ends up someones not going to be happy in the end.

[Baahb3]

Response fail. 'The rules say that it doesn't work that way' is not a legitimate response to 'the rules are messed-up and should be changed as to be more fair and interesting'.

And +int tomes are a pretty major advantage for veteran players twinking out new alts over true noobs. Combine that with the inaccessibility of 32 point builds and it pretty much sucks to be a noob in DDO.

First you have the same accessability to 32 point builds that the rest of us had. We worked to get them and many of us still sport our 28 point builds just fine, pony up and put in the time to unlock them.

Second, your con bonus is retroactive because it reflects your current health at that point in time, thus if it changes your health capacity changes.

The int bonus to skills represents your capacity to learn and thus spend skill points at one point in time, i.e. when you level up. If it changes your capacity to learn and thus spend skill points changes and will be reflected when you are able to level up.

Just because you have more capacity/skill points to spend at level 8 does not mean that you did when you were lvl 4 or 1.

And the argument about enhancement bonuses, if you check your level up info you will notice that the game only adds in your 'natural' con bonus. The bonus from items is not reflected on the level up screen, it gets added in later.

Skill points SHOULD NOT be retroactive and non-permanent bonuses should not affect the number of points you have to spend.

[Jendrak]

Umm, it was the "newbs" three years ago who got to use non level restricted int tomes.

And at best you argument on this is paper thin.

i say that because even though we did have un-restricted tome usage your looking at a max bonus of, at best, 6 more skill points total. This is hardley game altering. Considering that at level up you have a max number that you can put into a skill your looking at maybe 1 extra skill that we could keep at level. And thats if you chose to build it that way and not just spread the extra point around into jump or something else.

Combine that with the fact that any re-building that may be introduced is almost definatly going to use the new level restriction for calculating and those points go away.

Besides, Int just doesn't work that way in any form of DnD, I don't care what system you use. (House rules are the exception)

[Shaamis]

LOL. yep.

It makes all of the sense if you know the rules DDO is based off of.

[bobbryan2]

In short, yes. I think int tomes will retroactively fix skill points whenever respec options come out.

All these people quoting D&D rules are just being obtuse. In PnP, you don't have your lvl 16 character mail over a twinked out +2 tome set to a guy in a new campaign you're rolling up. The inequity between twinked characters and nontwinked characters in this game is permanent, and something that can never be made up by grinding.

So, I imagine when respeccing comes out, you'll get credit for a +1 tome at 2 and +2 at 7, and get skill points for each level. That would be the best way to do it anyway.

[Strakeln]

Your post implys that the vets have some advantage over the new players. While it is true we vets have 32 point builds and have some twinking capability its because we gound out our 1750 favor and ran countless quests getting where we are today. Give it 6 months to a year or possibly even less and you might see this is not some Us "New players" versus Them "Veteran players". We all play the same game its just some of us have been playing longer.
I have 7 ML1 +2 int tomes, I only make about 2 new characters a year. So I can go another 3.5 years with all of my characters having an advantage that new players have little to no way of obtaining. Six months will not fix this problem (respec will, at least partially).


Not to mention Int tomes really only benefit alts where skills are important.
No, int tomes benefit any character that is not starting with their int score set as low as possible. Everyone else can adjust their starting int score down by 1 or 2 of the target, freeing up more build points for other stats.

[Vormaerin]

Is there some point to an argument of the advantages of twinking? A vet is going to have a huge advantage from his storehouse of items. Int tomes are not anywhere near the top of the list of twinking advantages vets have.

[bobbryan2]

Is there some point to an argument of the advantages of twinking? A vet is going to have a huge advantage from his storehouse of items. Int tomes are not anywhere near the top of the list of twinking advantages vets have.

They're at the very top, along with 32 pt builds... because neither of those can be overcome ever.

[Mercules]

They're at the very top, along with 32 pt builds... because neither of those can be overcome ever.

I don't remember ever having anyone say, "OMG... I just pulled a +2 Int tome! I need to reroll this character so I can have 15 more skill points!":p Not even on a Rogue.

[eonfreon]

You are why I play GURPS for a role-playing game. GM arbitrarily assigns a difficulty... and I roll my eyes. I like the level of detail and knowing that my success of failure isn't based on how a GM decides things might be but instead based off of how I built my character, usually based off a well built background explaining their abilities.

Yes, the Halfling can jump higher because he practiced Jumping, has trained his reflexes and muscles to do so, and has learned how best to move to get more height. It isn't a stupid concept since it happens to be true in real life, a trained Gymnast can jump higher than someone of equal physique with no training.

Yes, that's perfectly fine to worry about those kinds of details. I like details too.
But I never arbitrarily assigned rolls. It was just as much about how they built their characters and their backgrounds and the circumstances of the situations they were in.
The rules got more precise. More built for "tournament" play. They did not get better.
All the elements were there.
In an AD&D module there might be a trap/item whatever that required a "Dex Roll" with certain modifiers. Perhaps race could even be a factor, perhaps even roleplay (hey guys my Halfling was the Best Jumper in 3 States and I have a 18 Dex, etc - sure that's good for a +3 etc).
I can only imagine how a 3.5 Module would treat it: a special ledge would have a "score" needed to be reached, perhaps.
It comes out to essentially the same thing.
And even by AD&D rules they were hardly arbitrary, if one wanted to spend time and money on the Wilderness Guide or somesuch they started on ideas of skills and determining distances and all types of layers of complication and detail.

Later they streamlines and changed rules. In my case it was unnecessary to pick up new rules for old concepts since after years of playtesting I and my group had settled on the interpretations of the rules and Optional Rules we liked. And we created our own to deal with things we wanted to expand on.

Nothing arbitrary about it.

[tihocan]

I don't remember ever having anyone say, "OMG... I just pulled a +2 Int tome! I need to reroll this character so I can have 15 more skill points!":p Not even on a Rogue.
It can be quite useful on multi-classed rogues and Combat Expertise builds, for people who want to optimize them as much as possible and avoid "wasting" build points in Int.

[eonfreon]

It makes all of the sense if you know the rules DDO is based off of.

Yes, I fully accept that as the rules are written in a version of the D&D Rules called 3.5 that this video game version is based off that this is how it is.

I accept it because I enjoy this game that bears the standard and logo of a game that was great fun to play in the version that I grew up with and evolved. Rules were allowed or disallowed by the very rules and guidelines set in the AD&D rules of it's time and the use and application that was a consensus of players and GM/DM's whatever you want to call the other player that had to create/narrate the adventures. You know, the guy who rolled dice on the other side of the table and usually behind a screen or something.

I fully accept that my understanding of these current rules we play in this version of D&D as a quasi-FPS, MMO, Adventure Game are probably darn good, although I never have to worry about differences in DDO from 3.5, because I never played that version. But even my old memories of D&D allowed me to create effectively right from the get-go. Especially since we started with 3 friends who used to play D&D together in Junior High and sometimes in High School when we had the chance. This game is fun and easy to learn. Mastering it is a blast too.

It intrigues me but since I don't play that PnP game, I don't worry about converting stuff over.

In DDO it makes sense with obstacles and surfaces assigned "jump" scores. In any version of PnP D&D you would make something like a "jump" score matter differently then in this video game.

The official rules at the time were well-thought out and adapted from some of the complicated and not useful rules and were streamlined of course. But the elements of the rules stay the same. There are odds based on factors of the game, characters, situations,and whatever else is deemed to fit. Dice are rolled and success and failure is determined and what the actual effects of success and failure are attributed.
If someone is within a point or 2 do you give then a quick second chance? Add it to a chance to catch themselves? Is a hit a Critical. Is it resisted. Are Vorpals allowed? etc. Feats and Powers and Spells and Abilities in essence allow you to break the rules or adapt to the rules or play with the rules, orhowever you want to think of it

I'm sure the 3.5 rules that are followed are great and all but it does have inconsistencies. It's supposed to. It's just the "lore", the rules. Certainly not abritary, but only an interpretation after all. Some one else could have just said, "yeah you know what you happen to have your 2nd grade books and you read up on math- congrats you now understand math and also have the smarts to realize that it apply to differnet things- like Jumping LOL."

If the INT Tome is fine as it is, I have no problem with it since these were the rules presented to me since I started playing and learning. Since you guys figure that the inconsistencies of the different ABility Increase interpretations is hokey dory then sure, why not. After all "it is at it is" is a often the basic truth.

[bobbryan2]

I don't remember ever having anyone say, "OMG... I just pulled a +2 Int tome! I need to reroll this character so I can have 15 more skill points!":p Not even on a Rogue.

Yeah... cuz rogues need help in the skills department :rolleyes: A better example would be a sorcerer that wants to max UMD and concentration, but also wants to start with an 8 int. Or maybe a wizard x/rog 2 that is trying to keep 5 skills maxed...

My point is that Twinker A will always always always have more skill points than nonTwinker A. There really should never be as much of an advantage to twinking as there is, let alone PERMANENT bonuses.

D&D rules don't really apply here, because D&D rules are already being broken by the very existence of twinking.

[whysper]

Great, another thread completely done in by the, ah, questionable attitude of the poster and an obfuscated argument that almost by design derails the thread.

There is only one potentially valid argument to be found in this, accepting the fact that DDO bears a remote likeness of D&D 3.5ed: the Intelligence tomes should be purchasable at level 1 because, unlike any of the other ones, they lose some of their power if not usable at first level.

Complaining that this is "unfair" to newcomers is a non-starter argument: back when the oldbies were newbies, you could hardly loot tomes let alone outright buy them. So is complaining about the differences between Int- and the other tomes. That is how it is, one of the five or so remaining things this game actually has in common with 3.5ed.

Considering this point, I do not see any reason why the level - for Int only - could not be lowered to 1 for +1 and 4 for +2, within reasonable implementation constraints. Being able to buy tomes is ruinous enough that loosening the requirements will not really do any further damage. The cost of implementation, though, must be weighed against losing a maximum of ONE SINGLE POINT of Int for the +1 tome or a total of 11 points by level 8, assuming a stat increase.

[Kaldaka]

The argument that vets have it easier than newbs is completely invalidated by the DDO store.

When I was starting out, I could not put an entire set of +1 tomes on my freaking credit card ...


:D

[bobbryan2]

Great, another thread completely done in by the, ah, questionable attitude of the poster and an obfuscated argument that almost by design derails the thread.

There is only one potentially valid argument to be found in this, accepting the fact that DDO bears a remote likeness of D&D 3.5ed: the Intelligence tomes should be purchasable at level 1 because, unlike any of the other ones, they lose some of their power if not usable at first level.

Complaining that this is "unfair" to newcomers is a non-starter argument: back when the oldbies were newbies, you could hardly loot tomes let alone outright buy them. So is complaining about the differences between Int- and the other tomes. That is how it is, one of the five or so remaining things this game actually has in common with 3.5ed.

Considering this point, I do not see any reason why the level - for Int only - could not be lowered to 1 for +1 and 4 for +2, within reasonable implementation constraints. Being able to buy tomes is ruinous enough that loosening the requirements will not really do any further damage. The cost of implementation, though, must be weighed against losing a maximum of ONE SINGLE POINT of Int for the +1 tome or a total of 11 points by level 8, assuming a stat increase.

Not sure how your proposed solution would do anything but make the situation worse.

Just make them retroactively apply to skill points at the specified levels that are equal for everybody, and let the character respecs handle it.

[joker965]

The reason it is done this was is this is consistent with D&D 3.5 rules. Given that this is a game based on 3.5, that makes it a valid reason. You don't like the rules fine, but there is a basis for what is being done. It also makes sense from a game standpoint if you understand what these items do and how D&D levelling works.

You "learn" skills while levelling based on your int at the time. You can't go back and learn more in grade 2 when you are 20 just because you became smarter, you are no longer in grade 2.

A con tome on the other hand teaches you how to improve your body. If I begin working out today and achieve level X of fitness then I have endurance (which is translated in HP in D&D) based on that level I have no. What I had when I was a teenager doesn't matter at all.

It makes perfect sense.

This is correct.

[whysper]

Not sure how your proposed solution would do anything but make the situation worse.
Your logic completely escapes me, elaborate? The only inequity is that the tomes are not available at the same level to all players. Changing the store minimum level corrects that. I therefore fail to see the problem, unless you agree with me that being able to buy tomes off the store is a horribly bad idea? That ship sailed already.


Just make them retroactively apply to skill points at the specified levels that are equal for everybody, and let the character respecs handle it.

This is A) not 3.5ed rules and B) considerably harder to implement.

[zarlokk]

Yeah... cuz rogues need help in the skills department :rolleyes: A better example would be a sorcerer that wants to max UMD and concentration, but also wants to start with an 8 int. Or maybe a wizard x/rog 2 that is trying to keep 5 skills maxed...

My point is that Twinker A will always always always have more skill points than nonTwinker A. There really should never be as much of an advantage to twinking as there is, let alone PERMANENT bonuses.

D&D rules don't really apply here, because D&D rules are already being broken by the very existence of twinking.

Sorcerers want UMD, concentration. diplomacy, and many even want intimidate, too. But you are spot on with the 8 int thing. Not having to spend 4 points on int at the start of the game is the same as opening a 36 point character for a sorcers, and I'd say a rgoue and many multi classes as well.

And it's fine if they want the "rules to apply". Just actually apply them! Cause the rules of character recreation to fix this problem outright.

[NinetyNineTails]

My point is that Twinker A will always always always have more skill points than nonTwinker A. There really should never be as much of an advantage to twinking as there is, let alone PERMANENT bonuses.

D&D rules don't really apply here, because D&D rules are already being broken by the very existence of twinking.

This.

[Aumvaar]

The inequity between twinked characters and nontwinked characters in this game is permanent, and something that can never be made up by grinding.

It seems to me that the real issue in this thread is the existence of twinking, not the perceived disparity between the two types of tome.

OTOH, it's kinda impossible to eliminate twinking, unless everything you pick up auto-binds to you, which would then eliminate most or all of the Auction House.

My personal preference -- given that twinking is gonna happen, & there's little-to-nothing that can be done to stop it -- is to simply not care a whit if other players twink. Seriously, why worry about something that can't be stopped? Just let the players play & deal with the "inequities" in their own way, because "inequities" abound, always have, & always will.

[NinetyNineTails]

My personal preference -- given that twinking is gonna happen, & there's little-to-nothing that can be done to stop it -- is to simply not care a whit if other players twink. Seriously, why worry about something that can't be stopped? Just let the players play & deal with the "inequities" in their own way, because "inequities" abound, always have, & always will.

There's a pretty huge difference between 'twinking gives you an edge while leveling, but non-twinked chars can catch up in the end game' and 'twinking gives your character advantages that a non-twinked character will never, ever be able to replicate'.

If you don't understand that distinction, I don't know what else to say to you.

[Dretharis]

Your logic completely escapes me, elaborate? The only inequity is that the tomes are not available at the same level to all players. Changing the store minimum level corrects that. I therefore fail to see the problem, unless you agree with me that being able to buy tomes off the store is a horribly bad idea? That ship sailed already.


The change you proposed would

A) Require a consumable store purchase for an optimized end-game build, regardless of time spent farming/grinding
B) STILL leave players who hadn't been around for the older tomes an inherent, unavoidable disadvantage.

Why not just change Int +1 and +2 tomes back to ML0? Or, alternatively, make the 1750 tome reward an MLVL0 tome? It was a mistake to give them an MLVL in the first place - the 32 point build is enough of a gap for newcomers as-is; DDO doesn't need a second hurdle for new players, especially when it's all but impossible to scale.

Some players who invested in them will undoubtedly be upset, but I think the longer this issue remains outstanding, the worse it'll become. If a respec "fixes" this by counting the extra skill points at L3 and L7 onward, it would have to also increase the current MLVL0 tomes, or it would just limit access to the advantage to an even smaller group.


There's a pretty huge difference between 'twinking gives you an edge while leveling, but non-twinked chars can catch up in the end game' and 'twinking gives your character advantages that a non-twinked character will never, ever be able to replicate'.

If you don't understand that distinction, I don't know what else to say to you.

Quoted for emphasis. Why are people even discussing twinking? Or PnP rules, for that matter?

One thing's for sure, this thread was derailed pretty badly.

[DnD3]

What is up with people saying is the rules? This game seems to ignore or screw some of the rules so why not this one that it actually helps and people seem to have wanted for a long time? Last time I check I did not see Resurrecting cakes in D&D, Experience potions or casters requiring Mana