Low-DEX Rogue: Fit for the asylum?

[Zvonomir]

I'm working on a build for a new, less-than-usual Dwarven Rogue:

STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 10 (+0)
CON: 16 (+3)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 12 (+1)

I might switch the points in Charisma for a Dexterity of 12, not sure yet.

Dexterity effects Armor Class, Reflexes Saves, missile fire, sneaking, Balance, Tumble, and Open Lock. DEX is also useful for characters who want to use Weapon Finesse (although it's more accurate to say that Weapon Finesse is useful for characters with a high DEX).

For purposes of the Roguey skills, a high Intelligence looks far superior to a high Dexterity. Charisma also provides some Skill points, and while a charismatic Dwarf is probably an inefficient use of Attribute Points, I'm not a min-maxer and hope to eventually find a roleplaying guild.

For purposes of combat, 3 extra HP per level might be better than an AC that's 2 or 3 higher, so Constitution seems better there. A good CON instead of a good DEX trades Reflexes for Fortitude, making my Saves more well-rounded. That could be good or bad; it might be better to have one good Save and one crappy Save than two "meh" Saves.

Am I missing anything? Does a low-DEX Rogue suffer at middle or high levels, in ways that I can't appreciate until I get there? Are there locks or traps that demand the highest-possible Disable/Open skills? Is it better to have Reflexes +5 and Fortitude +0?

If it matters, I don't know yet whether I'll multi-class. I'd like to go pure Rogue, but never say never.

Danke.

[Vivanto]

I'd go at least 16 str on a dworf.

Why you want a high cha btw? Can hit a decent enough umd score with just base 8 (6 on dwarf).

What weapon style you plan on using? If you want to twf, at least 15 starting dex is advisable and a +2 tome to qualify for gtwf. As a rogue with insane sa, twf makes more sense to maximise # of attacks performed.

[KingOfCheese]

I agree on the 16 STR. You can also drop your intel a bit (12 would be fine). Getting the traps is easy cheesy without much intel. You can easily hit 50+ search/disable with little to no points in intel--and that is enough for any relevant trap in the game.

[Varr]

Putting pts into wis or cha before getting your dex to a 14 (1-1 cost) is just being stuborn. Assuming you want to put level ups in str......what weapon? Most find two weapon the best for rogues and you can still do that with one level up and a +2 tome to bring dex to the mandatory 17 for improved andngreaterntwo weapon fighting feats.

Even if you want to qstaff it, 14 dex is a smart standard baseline. For a 28 of build I also would stop at 14 str at creation.....you don't have the build points to afford a 2-1 15/16 str.....not ecconomical IMO.

14 14 16 14 8 10 would be my build

[Blind_Skwerl]

I agree on the 16 STR. You can also drop your intel a bit (12 would be fine). Getting the traps is easy cheesy without much intel. You can easily hit 50+ search/disable with little to no points in intel--and that is enough for any relevant trap in the game.

You Lie!!! Oops, wait... wrong forum. Hehe. You may have a small bit of trouble with the early levels unless you are geared out for it, but end game the strength is way more valuable than the int.

[Emili]

I'm working on a build for a new, less-than-usual Dwarven Rogue:

STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 10 (+0)
CON: 16 (+3)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 12 (+1)

I might switch the points in Charisma for a Dexterity of 12, not sure yet.

Dexterity effects Armor Class, Reflexes Saves, missile fire, sneaking, Balance, Tumble, and Open Lock. DEX is also useful for characters who want to use Weapon Finesse (although it's more accurate to say that Weapon Finesse is useful for characters with a high DEX).

For purposes of the Roguey skills, a high Intelligence looks far superior to a high Dexterity. Charisma also provides some Skill points, and while a charismatic Dwarf is probably an inefficient use of Attribute Points, I'm not a min-maxer and hope to eventually find a roleplaying guild.

For purposes of combat, 3 extra HP per level might be better than an AC that's 2 or 3 higher, so Constitution seems better there. A good CON instead of a good DEX trades Reflexes for Fortitude, making my Saves more well-rounded. That could be good or bad; it might be better to have one good Save and one crappy Save than two "meh" Saves.

Am I missing anything? Does a low-DEX Rogue suffer at middle or high levels, in ways that I can't appreciate until I get there? Are there locks or traps that demand the highest-possible Disable/Open skills? Is it better to have Reflexes +5 and Fortitude +0?

If it matters, I don't know yet whether I'll multi-class. I'd like to go pure Rogue, but never say never.

Danke.
I am trying to figure out what you wish to accomplish here? At end-game - especially elite - Your dps a tad lower, trap skills a bit rough and saves and evasion both hard pressed. If building a str rogue then str, dex and con set decent with str as emphasis, int 12 is fine base wisdom and cha 10, 8... i.e. 16 14 14 12 10 10 feels ok lvls up in str.

[EKKM]

With the exception of some Q-staff wielding acrobats, rogue should always have TWF. The doubling of sneak attack damage cannot be offset the extra str and chr. Need a 17 base dex to get ITWF and GTWF.

I would suggest dropping str to 14 and chr to 10, raise dex to 16 and eat a +1 tome or use a level up to get to 17.

I am not normally a "do this or ur a gimp" person, but in this case, have TWF or ur a gimp.

[honkuimushi]

When you take lots of Rogue levels, you'll want to maximise your sneak attacks, which means TWF. You need a dex of 15 for TWF and 17 for ITWF and GTWF. You can use tomes, so you could start with a 15 if you have a +2 Dex tome or 16 if you have to rely on a +1.

Also, while rogues do have a good reflex save, It would be good to put at least a 14 into dex to help with that. You get Evasion, but you need to succeed on a reflex save for it to work and some of the later DCs are pretty high, especially on traps.

And if you're making a Str based dwarf, it's worth taking advantage of the ability to use dwarven axes. To do that, you need to take at least 1 level of a 1/1 BAB class. If you only want to take 1 level, Barabarian is a good choice. If you're open to more, 2 levels of Ranger get you some nice wand use and the first TWF feat while keeping your skills up. You could even go with 6 levels of Ranger where you would trade sneak attack damage and Tier III of your Rogue PrE for overall combat ability

[Tuney]

Well if you go Acrobat and want to use Q-staff , you can somewhat offset the loss of extra attacks from twf. And in a way you free up 3 feats to perform better. All I know for sure with that low of a dex , he WILL need Improved evasion because I'm not sure he'd make as many reflex saves unbuffed. Or you can Put the 3 feats into THF and I wonder if THF 'procs for glancing blows' will do sneak attack as well then that most defently can make up for the loss of sneak attacks hehe.

[Zvonomir]

Sounds like TWF is mandatory, which makes a low-DEX Rogue impossible. I suppose I could multi-class as a Ranger, for those free Feats (iirc, Rangers don't have to meet the prerequisites for TWF).

[William_the_Bat]

A mostly pure rogue is USUALLY better as a two-weapon fighter, but strength based two-hand qstaff acrobats can be a lot of fun and very useful in the occasional pinch when you can't shed agro (maybe because the rest of the party's soulstones are in your backpack) and need to put out some hurt, especially against unbypasable DR.

My acrobat is mostly str and int. Yes, you don't NEED a high int to be a good rogue, but if you do put some extra points there, you can pick up more skills, and be that much better at trapsmithing.

[Zvonomir]

A mostly pure rogue is USUALLY better as a two-weapon fighter, but strength based two-hand qstaff acrobats can be a lot of fun and very useful in the occasional pinch when you can't shed agro (maybe because the rest of the party's soulstones are in your backpack) and need to put out some hurt, especially against unbypasable DR.
I was thinking about a two-handed-weapon guy, but of course the only such weapon a Rogue can use is the quarterstaff. I was thinking about grabbing 1 level of Fighter, just for the Dwarven War Axe proficiency, but a staff-wielding Dwarf is such a funny mental image, I might have to try it. And I'll have to look into this "acrobat" thing; I assumed that an "acrobat" would necessarily be a high-DEX character, so I disregarded the idea without even looking at it.


Yes, you don't NEED a high int to be a good rogue, but if you do put some extra points there, you can pick up more skills, and be that much better at trapsmithing.
Right, that's what I was thinking too. Just in terms of Skills, a high INT passes a high DEX by 5th level or so.

Thanks for the chat, everyone! :)

[the_brigand]

I was thinking about grabbing 1 level of Fighter, just for the Dwarven War Axe proficiency

You're Dwarf, you already know how to use DWA.

[honkuimushi]

You're Dwarf, you already know how to use DWA.

Nope. Dwarven axes are treated as Martial weapons for dwarves. If you have a level in a class that grants proficiency with all Martial weapons, you get proficiency with dwarven axes. Rogues only gain proficiency with the rapier, shortbow and shortswod, I believe. If a dwarven Rogue wants to use dwarven axes, he has to spend a feat or take a level of Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin.

[Junts]

You'd be way better off on a 'low dex' rogue by taking the minimum for two weapon fighting, twf gets way more out of sneak attacks than any other combat style, due to hitting more times in the same period.

[GlassCannon]

I am trying to figure out what you wish to accomplish here? At end-game - especially elite - Your dps a tad lower, trap skills a bit rough and saves and evasion both hard pressed. If building a str rogue then str, dex and con set decent with str as emphasis, int 12 is fine base wisdom and cha 10, 8... i.e. 16 14 14 12 10 10 feels ok lvls up in str.


Though you do have some points, I have to argue that it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than a Melee Favored Soul.

As for my opinion - I prefer TWF. If you want to go THF, I would build it as such: 18/8/18/14/8/6. You won't have a high enough UMD with that sacrifice to other stats to warrant dumping points into CHA, and a higher to-hit is pretty important with a Rogue(not a full BAB class). I'd squeeze Power Attack and Weapon Specialization in there if I could, but otherwise focus on HP(Toughness) and THF feats.

If you want a TWF Rogue that hits really f*cking hard, take a gander at the "standardized STR Khopesh Rogue", which I named Levina (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2308353&postcount=1) so I could post a link to newbies that constantly asked me for build information. True, it's not a Multiclass, but it does more average damage than the Ravager against things that can be sneak attacked.

[Asketes]

***NOTE*** will finish the feats and enhancements later tonight. sry

meet my dps rogue: fawltypicks

plan: 13 rogue acrobate, 6 fighter kensei, 1 monk

This build alternates between falchions and staves. I'm not sure what he will be taking his kensei specializations in yet.

THIS IS NOT A SNEAK ATK USER, nor am I sneaky: I dumped into cha b/c it helps w/ intimidate

currently lvl 13.

Current Stats:
STR: 28 (17 base, 2 tome, 1 fighter, 6 item, 2 levels)
DEX: 22 (14 base, 2 tome, 1 rogue, 5 item)
CON: 26 (18 base, 2 tome, 6 item)
INT: 22 (14 base, 2 tome, 6 item)
WIS: 6
CHA: 12 (6 base, 6 item)

LVL 20, final stats:
STR: 34 (17 base, 4 tome, 2 fighter, 6 item, 5 levels)
DEX: 26 (14 base, 4 tome, 3 rogue, 5 item)
CON: 26 (14 base, 4 tome, 2 warforged, 6 item)
INT: 24 (14 base, 4 tome, 6 item)
WIS: 6
CHA: 16 (6 base, 6 item)

LVL 20, final Hit Point count: 478

13 Rogue: 78
6 Fighter: 60
1 Monk: 8
Con: 160
Toughness: 22
Durabilit: 20
Argonessen: 10
Greater false life: 30
Minos Legens: 20
Enhancements: 50

Feats:
normal feat lvls: 1 3 6 9 12 15 18 (took rogue lvls at 1, 3-5, 7-14)
fighter feat lvls: 2 6 16 18 (i took fighter lvls at 2, 6, and 15-19)
monk feat lvl: 20 (took monk at lvl 20)

1 - Toughness
2f - Two Weapon Fighting
3 - skill focus: disable device (i've never failed, much less blown a trap, i will rid myself of this eventually)
6f - improved two handed fighting
6 - skill focus: UMD
9 - power attack
12 - improved crit slashing (may take bludgeoning, not sure yet, once i get my MIN II i'll get rid of this feat
15 -
16f -
18f -
18 -
20m -

special rogue feats: evasion and slippery mind