A few words about the patch…

[MadFloyd]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.

[The10man]

Thanks for acknowledging the broken mouselook UI. I was so excited to see that my chat window wasn't going to read like:

Mouselook disabled
You have updated your guilds MotD
Mouselook enabled
Player A asks you to join her party.
Mouselook disabled
You have joined Player A's party
Mouselook enabled

Then in my excitment I noticed I got mail yea I got mail yea. Can I go p*op now?

Double click mailbox wha wha? I'm not looking at it now I'm turned to the left.
Double click mailbox wha wha?

(Mouselook disabled) move cursor double click. Hmm that ain't right...send brother text message "mouse look not working for you too" Reply "yup" (expletives deleted)

Glad to hear your fixing it please hurry because this completly changes how I control my characters and has rendered some of the "twitchier" ones almost unplayable as I have to think what to do to do things Ie. healing on my cleric.

[The10man]

to fix mouse look goto the options/keymapping. then look about 2 above the Movement space and see if button 0 is in the DDO classic Interact or Interact/Steer. if in interact/steer clear it and set classic interact to left mouse click

Fixed problem for me.

[rest]

Thanks for posting about our concerns. It is very refreshing to see someone on the Turbine team (at ANY level) actually seem to care about the player base. In fact, I suspect some sort of trick.


I really hope something is done about the silly changes to melee combat. I have 1 character I can play now. All the rest have been shelved.

[Ciaran]

I will say this; the Dev response (you and Eladrin) about this has done much to abate my initial annoyance about this change and convinced me to stick around and see what develops.

Assuming that combat is changed to at least have the same feel it did before so I can get back to leveling my Amazon build, we can has +1 loot and 50% XP weekend? :D

(I mean that tongue in cheek. I don't expect any recompense except for a change that makes melee combat fun again).

[Coldin]

Oh, if only the devs payed as much attention to ranged combat grievances as they did to melee combat qualms.

[Borror0]

Oh, if only the devs payed as much attention to ranged combat grievances as they did to melee combat qualms.
Ranged what? ;)

[Ereshkigal]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.

so rollback the patch while you look into it. then deploy it on your super secret test server and get some feedback before launching this garbage on everyone. If you truly did this with the first patch, then the people who tested this mess managed to miss a whopper of a problem, and perhaps you should consider diversifying your testing group to include more playstyles.

also you could take a cue from some other mmos out there and when you DO release something, do it in pre-nerfed form. By that I mean MINIMIZE the changes you make, then if you have to make adjustments to make it a stronger change, do so. drastic changes that have to be taken back have no place on a live server. They belong on a test server. Would've though you'd have learned that from Dungeon Alerts...

[VonBek]

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected.

Thanks. I just want to feel perky, again. :D

[Hendrik]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.


Appreciate the post MadF.

[wrath13]

My account is no longer VIP???

Logging results in a message that I have to many characters and that I can buy more slots in the store...

[Arryeo]

we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.

Anyone else drink the kool aid?

[cdbd3rd]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback......

Good enough for me. Thanks MF.

*pauses*
(Ummm.... heh. Your initials, mate, not... well, anyway.) :o



Thanks. I just want to feel perky, again. :D

If I had a nickel for every time I've listened to my wife lament the same thing.... :rolleyes::D



:cool:

[Vivanto]

Since when was gaining a leval a negative experience for anyone regardless of class.

Reaching bab 15 and gaining your 5th attack animation was a reduction in dps and had to be changed/eliminated. However that dosen't explain why change the rest of the combat system, simply removing/fixing the last animation would've sufficed.

[cdbd3rd]

Well congradulations ....

Responses like that vitriol is why getting dev responses is like pulling teeth any more. :mad:

[Nailog]

Since when was gaining a leval a negative experience for anyone regardless of class. Considering the varity of spells, feats, skills, weapons, and other things there was pratically something to look forward to at every level. EPIC FAIL AT EXPLAING THIS ONE AWAY, WHAT A LOAD OF BS!!!
Really?

You've been playing this game for years longer than I have, and you didn't notice this problem?

It's rather easily visible when fighting un-armed sans Monk.


At low levels, you have a one-two punch. It's pretty nice for slimes if you don't have a club. It's fast, it's constant. One-two, one-two, one-two.

You level up and now you have a kick. Sounds good in theory. 3 attacks are better than 2, right? In practice, your attacking oozes just took a 50% hit. One-two, kick, wait 2 seconds, one-two, kick, wait 2 seconds.

This was a level up. This was a negative impact.


Unfortunately, this specific example wasn't altered with the patch.

[Hendrik]

Good enough for me. Thanks MF.

*pauses*
(Ummm.... heh. Your initials, mate, not... well, anyway.) :o




If I had a nickel for every time I've listened to my wife lament the same thing.... :rolleyes::D



:cool:


You would be able to afford the operation to make 'perky' a permanent thing...


:)

Morning CB!

[cdbd3rd]

You would be able to afford the operation to make 'perky' a permanent thing...
:)

Morning CB!

Morn Hendrik! :)
Meh. Her boyfriend can deal with that junk soon as she's outta here. :p




Noticing that MadFloyd doesn't show on Dev Tracker, so lotta folks not seeing this thread.


.

[cdbd3rd]

Okay, cool.

1 of 2, so far. Showing in the Dev tracker.

Now put a lil sticky stuff on the thread, maybe?

:D


Or could even bump that "Announcement" of beta ending last month out of it's slot there at the top.... ;)

[Vua]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.

Not to be rude but you took everything good about leveling out of combat. You now have a +10 attack bonus and our entire attack sequence at level 3. You gutted the next 17 levels as we have nothing to look forward to outside of going from fighting in molasses to fighting under water. I can appreciate needing to fix the problem with getting slower attacks as we got higher but someone actually thought it was a good idea to slow combat to a crawl to have this effect? Seriously? You guys took the best thing about this game and mangled it and someone actually approved this.

And not forcing a playstyle on anyone? While I couldn't care less if people broke their attack chain or not you have actually forced us all into the same style. Actually that is what mod 9 was about. You took the way some people played and tried to force everyone to play the way you want the game to be played. All you have to do is look at the changes you made to everything to see it.

[Strakeln]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.
Thanks for the post, MadFloyd, this is the kind of thing we need to see.

Please add a mouselook player to your test team.

[Strakeln]

And not forcing a playstyle on anyone? While I couldn't care less if people broke their attack chain or not you have actually forced us all into the same style. Actually that is what mod 9 was about. You took the way some people played and tried to force everyone to play the way you want the game to be played.He has a good point, MadFloyd. Dungeon Alert is a bright and shining example of this.

If I hadn't been too loose with my rep in the last 24 hours, I'd give you some, Vua :)

[Gornn]

Not to be rude but you took everything good about leveling out of combat. You now have a +10 attack bonus and our entire attack sequence at level 3. You gutted the next 17 levels as we have nothing to look forward to outside of going from fighting in molasses to fighting under water. I can appreciate needing to fix the problem with getting slower attacks as we got higher but someone actually thought it was a good idea to slow combat to a crawl to have this effect? Seriously? You guys took the best thing about this game and mangled it and someone actually approved this.

And not forcing a playstyle on anyone? While I couldn't care less if people broke their attack chain or not you have actually forced us all into the same style. Actually that is what mod 9 was about. You took the way some people played and tried to force everyone to play the way you want the game to be played. All you have to do is look at the changes you made to everything to see it.

+1 rep for you because Strakeln was too loose with his rep and wanted to give you some.

[quintuss]

+1 Rep to Vua on behalf of Strakeln. :D

Darn, i got ninja'd by Gornn :p

Edit: I don't really mind the DA since i use it as an indicator to when it's worth stopping and kicking some mob's butts when soloing the vale but i can see why other people hate it so much.

[Missing_Minds]

He has a good point, MadFloyd. Dungeon Alert is a bright and shining example of this.

If I hadn't been too loose with my rep in the last 24 hours, I'd give you some, Vua :)

Not sure what your style is. I'm zerging now probably more than I have in the past without any issues honestly.
I honeslty laugh when I see the DA pop up. Because normally it vanishes 5 seconds later.

The only places that I feel DA should not be instantiated is in adventure areas and raids. Von 6, Reaver, Vision, Hound, Titan pt 2, etc. These are single rooms. you know where we are at, duh.

[Turial]

....
Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence....

So ranged combat is doomed? eh.

[Strakeln]

Not sure what your style is. I'm zerging now probably more than I have in the past without any issues honestly.
I honeslty laugh when I see the DA pop up. Because normally it vanishes 5 seconds later.

The only places that I feel DA should not be instantiated is in adventure areas and raids. Von 6, Reaver, Vision, Hound, Titan pt 2, etc. These are single rooms. you know where we are at, duh.
Sure, I'm still zerging, but certainly not in the same way. Regardless of whether or not it bothers me, the implementation of DA is in conflict with MadFloyd's last paragraph.

My thinking is this: I like the (perceived) intent of what his last paragraph says: we would like to improve the game, but not to the detriment of how you decide to enjoy it.

Dungeon Scaling is another example of how this was changed. I guarantee there was at least one person who enjoyed soloing the game on normal difficulty... Dungeon Scaling has now eliminated that possibility. Scaling should have never been introduced, as there was already an existing mechanism in place: normal/hard/elite selection. If there was a perceived need to make things easier on solo or short man groups, then why not add a fourth option, "Scaled". Or make it so there is a "scale to party size" checkbox option on the quest window?

There are a thousand better ways that Dungeon Scaling or some similar solution could have been introduced. I just don't understand why they chose the one that is in direct conflict with the stated desires in MadFloyd's last paragraph.

[redoubt]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.

Hey Mad,

If you give us more details on how things are supposed to work, we can give you better feedback on what we are seeing in game.

Thanks!

[Borror0]

Sure, I'm still zerging, but certainly not in the same way. Regardless of whether or not it bothers me, the implementation of DA is in conflict with MadFloyd's last paragraph.
I think he meant "as much as possible".

Clearly, there are situations where pleasing everyone is not possible. Respecs are an example of that. The moment they are added, it changes everyone's way to play. those who opposed respecs, like Quanefel or Kistilan, will have their gameplay impacted. In cases like that one, '"just don't use it" does not apply (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2243772#post2243772) like it would for a UI change. It's a matter of which crowd you want to please and the others will have to "suck it up".

Likewise, fixing an exploit is indeed forcing some players to change the way they play. Or, making a boss much harder also is. The thing is, sometimes the behavior of those players were deemed not good for the health of the game or in conflict with another crowd.

I believe that both Dungeon Alert and making "twitching" less effective fit into that category.

That is not to say that they follow that rule all the time. As you pointed out, Dungeon Scaling is a perfect example of when they don't live up to that promise. For our point of view, there is nothing that prevents them from adding a "no scaling" option at the door. Maybe that's trickier than it looks to us but that has not been told to us (and it would be good to know if that's the reason).

If there was a perceived need to make things easier on solo or short man groups, then why not add a fourth option, "Scaled". Or make it so there is a "scale to party size" checkbox option on the quest window?
I think it's much better to make scaled the default and give the option not to scale.

It's pretty much common knowledge in the industry now that soloing is necessary in an MMO, and hiding that option is a bad idea.

[Strakeln]

I think he meant "as much as possible".

Clearly, there are situations where pleasing everyone is not possible.
Agreed on both counts, but I don't feel this was one such situation.


I think it's much better to make scaled the default and give the option not to scale.

It's pretty much common knowledge in the industry now that soloing is necessary in an MMO, and hiding that option is a bad idea.
Default opt-in or default opt-out, I don't care so long as the option exists.

I'll get behind any OPTION that Turbine would like to add to the game.

[Borror0]

Agreed on both counts, but I don't feel this was one such situation.
By "this", you're referring to Dungeon Alert or Dungeon Scaling?

[Kamakazie]

At low levels, you have a one-two punch. It's pretty nice for slimes if you don't have a club. It's fast, it's constant. One-two, one-two, one-two.

You level up and now you have a kick. Sounds good in theory. 3 attacks are better than 2, right? In practice, your attacking oozes just took a 50% hit. One-two, kick, wait 2 seconds, one-two, kick, wait 2 seconds.

This was a level up. This was a negative impact.


Unfortunately, this specific example wasn't altered with the patch.

It seems to me this could be remedied by allowing the single kick to hit twice (with two rolls, of course).

[Aspenor]

There's a simple and obvious solution to the problem. Nix the 5th attack animation, and make it another attack without an animation. None of this "attack speed based on BAB" nonsense. It's simple and fixes the most important problem.

[Kaldaka]

...
At low levels, you have a one-two punch. It's pretty nice for slimes if you don't have a club. It's fast, it's constant. One-two, one-two, one-two.

You level up and now you have a kick. Sounds good in theory. 3 attacks are better than 2, right? In practice, your attacking oozes just took a 50% hit. One-two, kick, wait 2 seconds, one-two, kick, wait 2 seconds.

This was a level up. This was a negative impact.


Unfortunately, this specific example wasn't altered with the patch.


And that's the joke now isn't it ... there was a serious complaint out there about BAB progression and attack animations and AND THEY DIDN'T ADDRESS IT!!! they made the beginning progressions slower!?!?! GIVE ME A BREAK TURBINE!!



... drastic changes that have to be taken back have no place on a live server. They belong on a test server ...

QFT ...
+1 rep to you

[brlftz]

because this change is SO ugly, so detrimental to the player experience, and ESPECIALLY since it hits the one aspect of the game that is almost universally admired and touted as unique to DDO, it merits a rollback on monday. this is the first time in my 3+ years in the game where i have said that. but ****, this has GOT to go.

edit to add: not only does this hit the best, most marketable aspect of the game, it also just happens to hit new players the hardest, the one group they most need to impress. WOW is this bad. (pun sort of intended)

[Vua]

+1 Rep to Vua on behalf of Strakeln. :D

Darn, i got ninja'd by Gornn :p

Edit: I don't really mind the DA since i use it as an indicator to when it's worth stopping and kicking some mob's butts when soloing the vale but i can see why other people hate it so much.

I've been coming down hard on this adjustment and I believe rightfully so. And while I didn't care for DA or grazing hits, they haven't really affected me all that much. Sometimes I get some skulls but apparently I've been assimilated already. I turn around, kill a couple mobs and keep going.

Honestly Mod 9 seemed like a success to me. While there were some issues with it I was actually enjoying it. Hate to admit it, but I even liked being able to buy a few things from the store every now and then. Even my brother who I never imagined actually bought points. Scaling is pretty cool, though a few things became just a little too easy. The servers are extrememly busy, though I guess it's too early to decide if f2p is an actual success.

This is why I can't fathom why they would adjust the game in such a drastic manner 2 weeks after they released a relative success. It's almost like "darn, we only chased away half the veterans with the mod 9 delay and f2p, how do we get rid of the rest?"

Seriously Turbine, please fix this asap. I'd rather not walk away from this game just now.

[Autolycus]

Oh, if only the devs payed as much attention to ranged combat grievances as they did to melee combat qualms.

Agreed.

[Missing_Minds]

There are a thousand better ways that Dungeon Scaling or some similar solution could have been introduced. I just don't understand why they chose the one that is in direct conflict with the stated desires in MadFloyd's last paragraph.



Lets see what your actual list of less than 20 suggestions is then. Oh yeah, and remove any that doesn't follow the following rules.
1. does not allow exploiting mechanics to beat quests. Aka leashing.
2. can be applied to 90% of quests currently in play without much upfront cost. Your cost for development allowed is... 200 hours, TOTAL. So this includes coding, testing, QA, and acceptance.
3. does not break the AI in any fashion nor require a complete recoding.

optional: you are allowed to tick off players if the suggestion will work.

This is not sarcastic. I want to see what you really have for ideas.

[Strakeln]

Lets see what your actual list of less than 20 suggestions is then. Oh yeah, and remove any that doesn't follow the following rules.
1. does not allow exploiting mechanics to beat quests. Aka leashing.
2. can be applied to 90% of quests currently in play without much upfront cost. Your cost for development allowed is... 200 hours, TOTAL. So this includes coding, testing, QA, and acceptance.
3. does not break the AI in any fashion nor require a complete recoding.

optional: you are allowed to tick off players if the suggestion will work.

This is not sarcastic. I want to see what you really have for ideas.
The portion you quote says Dungeon Scaling, but your response seems to talk to Dungeon Alert. It's been going around, I did the same thing to Borr up above.

I'm happy to offer you a very large list of better solutions than Dungeon Scaling, if you so desire... but I'm afraid that I can in good faith only offer three better (IMO) solutions than Dungeon Alert:

1) Size the hardware the game/code/userbase
2) Size the game/userbase to the hardware
3) Leave it alone

[Strakeln]

By "this", you're referring to Dungeon Alert or Dungeon Scaling?
Yeah, oops, I meant Scaling while you're talking Alert :D

[Missing_Minds]

The portion you quote says Dungeon Scaling, but your response seems to talk to Dungeon Alert. It's been going around, I did the same thing to Borr up above.

I'm happy to offer you a very large list of better solutions than Dungeon Scaling, if you so desire... but I'm afraid that I can in good faith only offer three better (IMO) solutions than Dungeon Alert:

1) Size the hardware the game/code/userbase
2) Size the game/userbase to the hardware
3) Leave it alone

You said scaling, so lets see the scaling.
As for DA.. *chuckles* come on... I know you are not stupid by any means. Surely you can come up with better than that, that IS in the context of the game. I know I have.

1. we are on new hardware.
2. I don't have enough information nor knowledge.
3. Then you have all of the people *****ing they can't solo anything, which with the huge influx of new people with F2P, that would have been rather very detramental to the game. They had to make it more average player friendly if the whole idea was going to succeed. (IMO)

[Borror0]

2) Size the game/userbase to the hardware
You think there should be less players per server? Do I read that right?

[Jendrak]

Really?

You've been playing this game for years longer than I have, and you didn't notice this problem?

It's rather easily visible when fighting un-armed sans Monk.


At low levels, you have a one-two punch. It's pretty nice for slimes if you don't have a club. It's fast, it's constant. One-two, one-two, one-two.

You level up and now you have a kick. Sounds good in theory. 3 attacks are better than 2, right? In practice, your attacking oozes just took a 50% hit. One-two, kick, wait 2 seconds, one-two, kick, wait 2 seconds.

This was a level up. This was a negative impact.


Unfortunately, this specific example wasn't altered with the patch.

Can't really argue the monk point since I never rolled one up and never will. I just hated the class in PnP and will not play them.

As far as the 5th attack animation goes, ok it was slower than the rest but if that makes leveling up a negative expierence then you are just looking for something to cry about. If they were looking for a way to fix that then they should have just removed it or combined it into 2 attacks instead of that BS glancing blow everyone got. That would have kept BAB in line with PnP and negated the fact that it was much slower.

[SlipperyPete]

Don't know if it was pointed out yet but...

Starting off an fight with trip, stunning blow, stun, sunder etc. is absolutely useless because of the first swing being so slow.

Turbine timed this perfectly with me rolling a stalwert defender.

Thanks Turbine kicking the sword & board (what's left of them) in the ribs when they're already down and since when did we become paying testers?

One step forward, two steps back yet again.

[Missing_Minds]

Don't know if it was pointed out yet but...

Starting off an fight with trip, stunning blow, stun, sunder etc. is absolutely useless because of the first swing being so slow.

Then you have bad timing skills. I have noticed no change of this at all. and I use tactics a LOT. The only style I never bothered to use them was on 2HF because of how that strike is. you would always miss. 2WF and SB never had that issue.

I've got to remember to go back at some point to try how it works on 2HF again to see if the change did make it better or worse. Right now I'm thinking it should be better because the attacks are faster compared to what they were.

[Strakeln]

You said scaling, so lets see the scaling.
As for DA.. *chuckles* come on... I know you are not stupid by any means. Surely you can come up with better than that, that IS in the context of the game. I know I have.

1. we are on new hardware.
2. I don't have enough information nor knowledge.
3. Then you have all of the people *****ing they can't solo anything, which with the huge influx of new people with F2P, that would have been rather very detramental to the game. They had to make it more average player friendly if the whole idea was going to succeed. (IMO)
I said "in good faith". I can offer other solutions that may be better than DA, but IMO don't get to the root cause of the problem... which, in my opinion, would be no better than DA.

Regarding #1: I think it's shown to be beneficial. We have a lot larger population now, and the lag seems to be about the same as it was before, maybe a bit worse.

Your third response is talking about DS, when your list is supposed to be countering my DA alternatives.

I'll work on a DS list for you. You're going to get a chuckle from this one ;)

[Strakeln]

You think there should be less players per server? Do I read that right?
That's a bit more macro than what I was thinking. One example of what I was getting at was considering different ways to distribute instance load across the farm of a given server, or even servers. Another might be to provide dynamically calculated instance-based resource limitations.

Really, it was just acknowledging that the problem of userbase:server resources can be attacked from both directions.

[smatt]

Don't know if it was pointed out yet but...

Starting off an fight with trip, stunning blow, stun, sunder etc. is absolutely useless because of the first swing being so slow.

Turbine timed this perfectly with me rolling a stalwert defender.

Thanks Turbine kicking the sword & board (what's left of them) in the ribs when they're already down and since when did we become paying testers?

One step forward, two steps back yet again.

While I simply don't agree with the extreme hub-bub over the recent changes.. Ya they need to rethink them, but the drama is over the top.... The bolded comments from you hit the mark....

[Missing_Minds]

Your third response is talking about DS, when your list is supposed to be countering my DA alternatives.

I'll work on a DS list for you. You're going to get a chuckle from this one ;)

True.. *sigh* I finally got hit by the DS/DA confusion bug. Bound to happen.

And hey, make me laugh and I'll give you rep. :) (its... really about the only thing one can do on the forums.)

[Strakeln]

You said scaling, so lets see the scaling.
Randomly ordered list of Scaling alternatives that I consider better:

Enable solo option on all quests at the current "scaled normal solo" difficulty
Change solo option to "short-man" option, scaling to the size of the party
Provide a "Scale Dungeon" option to the quest window (default opt-out)
Provide a "Scale Dungeon" option to the quest window (default opt-in)
Provide a party leader option "Scale Dungeon" (similar to "Convert to Raid")
Provide a gameplay option "Scale Dungeons when Soloing"
Change quests to allow the user to select the level of the instance, from 1-30, default at the intended "normal" level of the dungeon
Enable a party-leader pop-up when entering a quest with less than 6 people: "Scale Dungeon?"
Add a user-defined scaling level to dungeons: normal->elite selection, and 1-6 players selection


I can keep going on and on, but the common theme should be quite evident by now: provide options, do not choose for us. People have been clamoring for solo capability (in terms of quest difficulty), no doubt... and I fully support the idea that Turbine should accommodate that fairly reasonable request. But... people have been asking for a solo/reduced difficulty option... not for the removal of choice from those who enjoyed soloing or short-manning normal/hard at the 6-man difficulty level.

And, in case you want the really long list...

Enable a difficulty option, call it "scaled"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "ultra-ez"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "reduced difficulty"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "less people"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "small party"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "solo/short man"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "no-twink"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "newbie"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "level 1"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "no mobs"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "ez-button"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "free chest at quest entrance"
Enable a difficulty option, call it "your mom could do this"
Provide a scaling option, call it "scaling option"
Provide a scaling option, call it "scaling option, yo"
Provide a scaling option, call it "scale this stuff"
Provide a scaling option, call it "reduced challenge"
Provide a scaling option, call it "debuffed mobs"
Provide a scaling option, call it "pink pony"
Provide a scaling option, call it "free fly spell"
Provide a scaling option, call it "mobs beat themselves up"
Provide a scaling option, call it "so easy a hireling could beat it"


I think you see where I'm going with that... :D:p

[Missing_Minds]

Enable a difficulty option, call it "ez-button"
Provide a scaling option, call it "pink pony"

Ok, those two made me chuckle. I give you rep.

Essentially, you want the option. You know what, I would like that and so would the people I tend to group with. We do miss the challenge of old, trioing everything.
Of the suggested methods.. I think having it a party option like how the leader will turn the party into a raid or not is probably the best/easest to have implemented. And I'd default the scaling to off myself, but that is me.

Maybe some polite asking such as Tolero and maybe we could get a poll... not that it may do much good given the result of the last poll. But who knows.

Now granted, I'd hate for the rewards to be made different between scale and non scaled. Just from the balancing aspect. I'd say the bragging rights are good enough for that.

[Strakeln]

Now granted, I'd hate for the rewards to be made different between scale and non scaled. Just from the balancing aspect. I'd say the bragging rights are good enough for that.
Agreed.

[Corpeces]

I'm not normally a complainer, but I have to say, it looks like im fighting under a slow spell. It's slow and boring to watch. In comparison, I loved the old way.

[Gunthor329]

They took the thing people loved the most about DDO and ruined it. How can they have any excuses for this? With this and the turbine points debacle I think they may just be ruining any chance this game had of being successful.

[Hreidmar]

...as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles.


1) Pardon me, but am I the only one here who doesn't give a rat's ass about inequalities from one weapon style to another? People: If you are swinging a greataxe - you are going to swing it slower than the guy who's swinging dual khopeshes. That is plain and simple logic.

2) Another thing - since making everything equal seems to be becoming a common trend - how about we just merge all the melee classes together into one warrior class so everyone can be equal? Oh! While we're at it we should merge the casters as well, and the healers! Let's take it a step further and remove the title Dungeons and Dragons altogether because it seems to me that in a few years the only thing D&D about this game will be the D20!

Yes - I am very annoyed with where this game is headed. What of it?

[Hreidmar]

Don't know if it was pointed out yet but...

Starting off an fight with trip, stunning blow, stun, sunder etc. is absolutely useless because of the first swing being so slow.

Turbine timed this perfectly with me rolling a stalwert defender.

Thanks Turbine kicking the sword & board (what's left of them) in the ribs when they're already down and since when did we become paying testers?

One step forward, two steps back yet again.

Kudos. Rep for you.

[Gunthor329]

1) Pardon me, but am I the only one here who doesn't give a rat's ass about inequalities from one weapon style to another? People: If you are swinging a greataxe - you are going to swing it slower than the guy who's swinging dual khopeshes. That is plain and simple logic.

2) Another thing - since making everything equal seems to be becoming a common trend - how about we just merge all the melee classes together into one warrior class so everyone can be equal? Oh! While we're at it we should merge the casters as well, and the healers! Let's take it a step further and remove the title Dungeons and Dragons altogether because it seems to me that in a few years the only thing D&D about this game will be the D20!

Yes - I am very annoyed with where this game is headed. What of it?

+rep to you.

[Corahn]

The game is fine, stop whining. I, for one, am happy with the changes and enjoy the nuances of the game in total. It's much like PnP, you can't please everyone and really it is only up to the Dungeon Master to make the decisions on how the game will be played.

[cinoaz]

.... it is only up to the Dungeon Master to make the decisions on how the game will be played.

The difference is, the DM is changing the rules all the time. DM gives you a campaign, you roll a caster, you get to lvl 4 then the DM says, oh, all magic in the game is useless now.

So, you kill off the caster and roll a melee, get to level 4, then the DM says, oh, all melee weapons now do 1/4 damage.

So, you kill off the melee and roll a cleric, get to level 4, then the DM says, oh, you are in a negative energy world, heals are now only half as effective.

So, you kill of the DM and move on....

[Strakeln]

The game is fine, stop whining. I, for one, am happy with the changes and enjoy the nuances of the game in total. It's much like PnP, you can't please everyone and really it is only up to the Dungeon Master to make the decisions on how the game will be played.
I appreciate that you want to share your opinion, but perhaps you should consider that you're new, vastly inexperienced with this game, and therefore in no place to tell others to stop whining.

[Missing_Minds]

I appreciate that you want to share your opinion, but perhaps you should consider that you're new, vastly inexperienced with this game, and therefore in no place to tell others to stop whining.

Fine, stop whining. Feel better that someone on par with you is telling you the same thing? The Devs are the DM and they decide how this game is going to be run. If you want nerfs, man.. go try Champions. They don't use bats, they drop mountains on your head.

The best thing to do is to ask for changes that will make the game more fun and WHY it would make it more fun. The diatribe that has been spouted off all over the forums is extremely counter productive to this.

[Strakeln]

Fine, stop whining. Feel better that someone on par with you is telling you the same thing?
Well, at least it's coming from someone who knows the impacts of the changes beyond level 4...

[Brahmina]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback on the forums. We realize some of the changes in the patch were contentious and we’ve been paying close attention to your feedback.

Regarding the changes to combat animation speed and progression, we made these changes to address a reduction in attacks per minute that occurred as players reached the higher levels, as well as some inequalities between different weapon styles. Since we never want gaining a level to be a negative experience, we felt the need to adjust the attack sequence.

That said, we can appreciate the general perception that the feel of combat has been impacted and we realize that certain class levels are significantly affected. We’re looking into this and hope to have some positive changes in the very near future.

We also realize the patch contained a serious mouse UI oversight on our part; we apologize to those affected and we’re working towards getting a fix out as soon as we can. While we’ve endeavored to expand the control scheme to provide more flexibility for different playstyles, we have no intention of forcing anybody to change the way they’ve been used to playing.


Somehow I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I just cannot believe you. You're just saying that you're looking into the stuff hoping it will pacify the players.

I call your bluff.

[Xionanx]

I'm curious about a few things and I'd like a little feedback:


Can we all agree that as it was, combat was biased towards TWF style and the THF "Twitch" exploit?
Can we all agree that per PnP rules EVERY combat style SHOULD have the same number of attacks in the same time period based on BaB?
TWF adds 1 attack, ITWF adds 1 attack, and GTWF adds 1 attack for a total of 7 attacks while GTWF at BAB 20?
As such, all characters who aren't TWF should have FOUR (4) attacks at BaB 20 in the same amount of time.


So what it really comes down to is what should that time period be? 4 attacks in 3 seconds per PnP rules? Is front loading the extra attacks to make lower level toons feel more powerfull the real issue?

Its my opinion that the combat speed changes are for the better. Yeah you feel slower now, well maybe thats not the problem! Maybe you were too fast before!

I've stated before that I think there are quite a few balance issues with this game directly related to the overpower nature of what the devs have given us to make the game "more fun". However in balancing the game for the overpowered builds the devs have inadvertently taken away "CHOICE" in class/build. Now in order to be effective at X point in the game you have to have X build with X gear.

I see a lot of people claiming how the combat speed changes are "making everyone the same", but I say that everyone already is the same. Every TWF in the game is wielding Khopesh's or Dwarven Axes. Every THF was wielding a Greataxe and "twitching". Everyone was wielding Mineral II's. Please point our how people were different before this change? You were either a TWF with Khopesh/Dwarven Mineral II's, a THF with a Mineral II Greataxe, or you were a DPS gimp.

Yeah, I agree the change could have been implemented a little differently. But SOMETHING needed to be done.

[FluffyCalico]

I'm curious about a few things and I'd like a little feedback:


Can we all agree that as it was, combat was biased towards TWF style and the THF "Twitch" exploit?
Can we all agree that per PnP rules EVERY combat style SHOULD have the same number of attacks in the same time period based on BaB?
TWF adds 1 attack, ITWF adds 1 attack, and GTWF adds 1 attack for a total of 7 attacks while GTWF at BAB 20?
As such, all characters who aren't TWF should have FOUR (4) attacks at BaB 20 in the same amount of time.


.

As long as you toss in things like monk stances who are supposed to be faster and remember that since tempest 3 gives STWF they should have 8 not 7.

PS> Perhaps 2HF needs to hit harder per swing than it does. Different topic but part of the same issue.

[Xionanx]

As long as you toss in things like monk stances who are supposed to be faster and remember that since tempest 3 gives STWF they should have 8 not 7.

PS> Perhaps 2HF needs to hit harder per swing than it does. Different topic but part of the same issue.

I left monks out because frankly they are broken on many levels:
Pointless/Useless stances
Pointless/Useless "strikes"
Combo system that is not explained "in game"
Finishing moves that are weak/redundant
Poor implementation of stunning blow/stunning fist
Lack of Greensteel handwraps
Poor/lacking monk oriented gear

As such the Monk wind stance granting an attack speed increase would fall under the same catagory as tempest PrE granting an attack speed increase. Otherwise a monk figting unarmed SHOULD have ONE additional attack as if they were fighting using TWF. So at BaB 20 a monk should have 5 attacks. ITWF and GTWF granting additional attacks was done to help alleviate some of the above "flaws" of the monk implementaion.

[Missing_Minds]

Well, at least it's coming from someone who knows the impacts of the changes beyond level 4...

Have a look at it from another perspective. You have been here a long time. Maybe longer than I have been around. We both are still here. What have we lived through?

1. The complete change of how enhancements worked.
2. The fix of evasion.
3. The nerfing of Wall of Fire stacking and the selling of certain scrolls.
4. The addition of a 5th attack which slowed down DPS instead of increase it.
5. The change to stat damage.
6. Red and Purple named immunities.

I'm certain the list continues if I really wanted to reach back further to find more.

The point is, we are still here. We are still pwning quests. We are still looting to our greedy heart's malcontent.

What is this change going to mean? Not much. This breaks no build what so ever unlike some of the previous changes. Twitch players who like to run around a lot got a hit to DPS. For some players this is a bad thing, and I agree, the hit was a bit much. BUT, there were some twich players that were stepping left and right just to increase their DPS, and that was the only reason. To break the attack chain. My guess is that this method was not desired so the developers decided to address it and the drop of DPS caused by the 5th attack. Probably also why the irriative bonus gets larger as you attack instead of having the largest bonus at first. But they really couldn't until they addressed the speed differences between maul/ax bs sword/falshion. The last step I see is that now that they created a baseline is to adjust it a final time. Who knows if they actually tried it out or not, but even if they did you know that has to be a dam small sample compared to the load on the servers.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm curious about a few things and I'd like a little feedback:


Can we all agree that as it was, combat was biased towards TWF style and the THF "Twitch" exploit?
I shall not disagree with this assumption.
Can we all agree that per PnP rules EVERY combat style SHOULD have the same number of attacks in the same time period based on BaB?
Per PnP rules the # of attacks should be 4, not 5. Beyond that, allowing for what feats grant and spells, yes.
TWF adds 1 attack, ITWF adds 1 attack, and GTWF adds 1 attack for a total of 7 attacks while GTWF at BAB 20?
Add in the fact that GTWF should have a Dex of 19 not 17 and requires a BAB of +11, not 20, sure.
As such, all characters who aren't TWF should have FOUR (4) attacks at BaB 20 in the same amount of time.
As stated above, baring what is granted by feats and spells, yes.


So what it really comes down to is what should that time period be? 4 attacks in 3 seconds per PnP rules? Is front loading the extra attacks to make lower level toons feel more powerfull the real issue?
Actually a PnP round is a flat 6 seconds for everything. Unlike in DDO where different "things" have rounds based on 2, 3, and 6 second "rounds". So you would have to make combat be 4 attacks in 6 seconds. That is a bit... slow for "action" don't you think?

game "more fun". However in balancing the game for the overpowered builds the devs have inadvertently taken away "CHOICE" in class/build. Now in order to be effective at X point in the game you have to have X build with X gear.


This is all in your head. Gear helps and comes into it, but there are many builds that without good control SUCK if you can't play the build as it is designed. Also End Game has changed multiple times which renders some builds obsolete. I've always planned characters out to lvl 20 myself, even when cap was 10. What you have stated there was all opinion, and very little of fact. The rest of it, yeah, I can see where you are coming from and the point of it. For the most part I do agree.

[apacheizm23]

so rollback the patch while you look into it. then deploy it on your super secret test server and get some feedback before launching this garbage on everyone. If you truly did this with the first patch, then the people who tested this mess managed to miss a whopper of a problem, and perhaps you should consider diversifying your testing group to include more playstyles.

also you could take a cue from some other mmos out there and when you DO release something, do it in pre-nerfed form. By that I mean MINIMIZE the changes you make, then if you have to make adjustments to make it a stronger change, do so. drastic changes that have to be taken back have no place on a live server. They belong on a test server. Would've though you'd have learned that from Dungeon Alerts...

Agreed.

Why wasn't this on the test server? I will say that it has been a negative experience leveling a few of my characters as I noticed the change immediately upon using the combat system. Just too many changes too fast and for who? The P2P?
Don't we deserve the courtesy for dialogue or testing before a change like this or do you guys just change the game when ever you feel fit.

[apacheizm23]

This is all in your head. Gear helps and comes into it, but there are many builds that without good control SUCK if you can't play the build as it is designed. Also End Game has changed multiple times which renders some builds obsolete. I've always planned characters out to lvl 20 myself, even when cap was 10. What you have stated there was all opinion, and very little of fact. The rest of it, yeah, I can see where you are coming from and the point of it. For the most part I do agree.

Agreed and well said.

[apacheizm23]

Why wasn't this on the test server? I will say that it has been a negative experience leveling a few of my characters as I noticed the change immediately upon using the combat system. Just too many changes too fast and for who? The P2P?
Don't we deserve the courtesy for dialogue or testing before a change like this or do you guys just change the game when ever you feel fit.

[Missing_Minds]

Why wasn't this on the test server? I will say that it has been a negative experience leveling a few of my characters as I noticed the change immediately upon using the combat system. Just too many changes too fast and for who? The P2P?
Don't we deserve the courtesy for dialogue or testing before a change like this or do you guys just change the game when ever you feel fit.

I bet it was on their test server. Like I said, they probably tried it out and it worked to their satisfaction. This created a baseline, now I have no idea how many people tested it. BUT, lets use a number in the lawsuit against Turbine via Atari. 66,000 people playing the game. lets just take a FRACTION of that and say they are still playing. Lets say 10,000 people. How many people do you think are on their test server? 20? 50? 100? Lets be very generous and say 500 people. 500 vs 10,000. That makes 500 a small sample doesn't it? It is going to take further tweeking and they did state they were going to do so.

As for deserving anything. The answer is we "deserve" nothing honestly. We agreed to play their game under their rules, with our only protection U.S. government laws. (In my case at least.) Now, it is indeed more respectful, and honestly better PR with the community if the developers and not the PR relations people come and tell us stuff. However, be it Dev or PR people (and the PR people are better suited to deal with us even if they don't have the details we want) inevitably, we bite their heads off, over analyze anything that is stated, and turn what was stated into a "promise" of what IS going to happen.

I wouldn't want to say much either.

[Monkey_Archer]

Can we all agree that as it was, combat was biased towards TWF style and the THF "Twitch" exploit?

Yes, now it is even more biased towards TWF, and THF twitch was nerfed.


Can we all agree that per PnP rules EVERY combat style SHOULD have the same number of attacks in the same time period based on BaB?

/agree


TWF adds 1 attack, ITWF adds 1 attack, and GTWF adds 1 attack for a total of 7 attacks while GTWF at BAB 20?
/agree... giving GTWF 9 attacks instead was borderline absurd...



As such, all characters who aren't TWF should have FOUR (4) attacks at BaB 20 in the same amount of time.
/agree



So what it really comes down to is what should that time period be? 4 attacks in 3 seconds per PnP rules? Is front loading the extra attacks to make lower level toons feel more powerfull the real issue?
4 attacks in 3 seconds is approximatly the speed at BAB 16 currently... making lower BABs seem too slow IMO



Its my opinion that the combat speed changes are for the better. Yeah you feel slower now, well maybe thats not the problem! Maybe you were too fast before!

High BABs havent seen much of a slowdown... the problem is at low levels.



I've stated before that I think there are quite a few balance issues with this game directly related to the overpower nature of what the devs have given us to make the game "more fun". However in balancing the game for the overpowered builds the devs have inadvertently taken away "CHOICE" in class/build. Now in order to be effective at X point in the game you have to have X build with X gear.

If Xpoint = endgame, then Xbuild = TWF, and Xgear = GS Khopeshes... :rolleyes:



I see a lot of people claiming how the combat speed changes are "making everyone the same", but I say that everyone already is the same. Every TWF in the game is wielding Khopesh's or Dwarven Axes. Every THF was wielding a Greataxe and "twitching". Everyone was wielding Mineral II's. Please point our how people were different before this change? You were either a TWF with Khopesh/Dwarven Mineral II's, a THF with a Mineral II Greataxe, or you were a DPS gimp.

Thats pretty much true, exept now the guy with the Min 2 Greataxe can be lumped in with the "dps gimp" category :(

[Strakeln]

Have a look at it from another perspective. You have been here a long time. Maybe longer than I have been around. We both are still here. What have we lived through?

1. The complete change of how enhancements worked.
2. The fix of evasion.
3. The nerfing of Wall of Fire stacking and the selling of certain scrolls.
4. The addition of a 5th attack which slowed down DPS instead of increase it.
5. The change to stat damage.
6. Red and Purple named immunities.
So? When firewall was nerfed, if someone who'd never used the spell told me to stop whining, I'd call them on it too. Think about what is really being said:

"I have no knowledge, insight, or experience regarding the impacts of this change, I have no idea what it was like before or after, but I want to say that you should stop whining about the change because I like it."

:rolleyes:

[Missing_Minds]

So? When firewall was nerfed, if someone who'd never used the spell told me to stop whining, I'd call them on it too. Think about what is really being said:

No, you missed the point I was making completely.

The point I was making, Strakeln, both of us have been through these things before. What good is whining really going to do? Nothing at all. You either put up, quit the game, or have people put you on their shut up filter (as you can not stop anyone from posting).

[Strakeln]

No, you missed the point I was making completely.

The point I was making, Strakeln, both of us have been through these things before. What good is whining really going to do? Nothing at all. You either put up, quit the game, or have people put you on their shut up filter (as you can not stop anyone from posting).
I didn't miss your point, you went on to some other topic that I didn't feel like delving into.

[Chaosprism]

unarmed and shield still seems to be the fastest way to punch.

Yes the delay in animation between the 2nd punch and kick is waaaay too long.