Pot,Pot,Pot,Pot,Pot....repeat...Pot,Pot,Pot...

[Guder]

What it costs to buy scrolls for a cleric to use while healing the tank? A stack of 100 Heal = 165,000 gold (16,500 plat). How many of those scrolls get wasted on over-healing? Depending on the quest, maybe just one? or two?..PLEASE, most likely almost ALL- but what alternatives are there?

What's my point?... a level 20 tank has NO chance to even lighten the load when the best healing potion in the game gives about as much benefit as a real world equivalent of eating a couple of grasshoppers for a meal...and not even the chocolate-covered ones at that.

The costs for Clerics in these high level quests and raids are staggering...and the reason is...what? greed?

Better for DDO if a cleric has to buy 10 mana pots from the Store to complete an Elite run...along with using 200 HealScrolls? and maybe 100 Mass Cure Mod scrolls too?

Oversight? "Oh, we didn't know level 20 tanks would have 600 HPs!?!"

"Here, let us offer better potions in the DDO store...how about Cure Serious Wounds Potions...heals from 4-39 HPS per swig...50 uses...only 120 points" (ALL Sarcasm here)

This just doesn't make sense...

GREATLY edited to simplify my point

[Skillless]

Good point, I think it's way past time for them to add a new cure pot.
And it's not just trying to be self-sufficient , how long are you out of the fight trying to drink down 20 pots while others are getting beat on.

[arminius]

I agree 100%. This problem makes a total joke of groups who insist one be self-sufficient. One could go into a quest with 1000 wand charges and 1000 pots and use them every round and it still wouldn't meet anyone's definition of "self-sufficient" when it takes 12 pots/charges to heal one round's attack. And please offer Cure Critical Wounds wands for sale in vendor shops as well. Repair Critical wands are sold, why the discrimination?

_

[Angelus_dead]

Cure Serious Wounds pot... heals 3d8 HP plus add-ons= say avg 30 hps...costs approx. 825gold w/20 haggle
1. Silver Flame Healing Potion
2. Level 11 Cleric Hireling
3. Heal papers to your friendly neighborhood Clerc/Fav/Bard/Rogue.

Mnemonic Potions should not be on the menu for healing needs except in serious emergencies, or out of laziness to buy Heal scrolls.

[Delt]

I want the Heal Scrolls the OP apparently has...lol.

(Heal scrolls don't work that way)

[Junts]

I agree 100%. This problem makes a total joke of groups who insist one be self-sufficient. One could go into a quest with 1000 wand charges and 1000 pots and use them every round and it still wouldn't meet anyone's definition of "self-sufficient" when it takes 12 pots/charges to heal one round's attack. And please offer Cure Critical Wounds wands for sale in vendor shops as well. Repair Critical wands are sold, why the discrimination?

_

Get yoself some umd, child.

[Aranticus]

Cure Serious Wounds pot... heals 3d8 HP plus add-ons= say avg 30 hps...costs approx. 825gold w/20 haggle
Heal scroll....in the hands of a good cleric...crit for say...oh, 1045 hps?...Avg heal? maybe 450?...cost 1650 gold
A nice level 20 fighter...600 hps

Attempts to be self-sufficient looks alot like the opening title...drink... pot, pot, pot, pot, pot,(repeat forever)
20 pots to get 600 hps 20x825 = 16,500 gold
2 Heal scrolls to get 600+ hps 2x1,650 = 3,300 gold

wasted HPs from drinking 20 pots while tanking? ZERO
wasted HPs from using a Heal Scroll when the Tank is down 1/3 of health bar [600 * 1/3 = 200 hps down (still have 400 hps)]
50% or more

What it costs to buy scrolls for a cleric to use while healing the tank? A stack of 100 Heal = 165,000 gold (16,500 plat). How many of those scrolls get wasted on over-healing? Depending on the quest, maybe just one? or two?..PLEASE, most likely almost ALL- but what alternatives are there?

What's my point?... a level 20 tank has NO chance to be Self-sufficient or even lighten the load when the best healing potion in the game gives about as much benefit as a real world equivalent of eating a couple of grasshoppers for a meal...and not even the chocolate-covered ones at that.

The costs for Clerics in these high level quests and raids are staggering...and the reason is...what? greed?

Better for DDO if a cleric has to buy 10 mana pots from the Store to complete an Elite run...along with using 200 HealScrolls? and maybe 100 Mass Cure Mod scrolls too?

Oversight? "Oh, we didn't know level 20 tanks would have 600 HPs!?!"

Here, let us offer better potions in the DDO store...how about Cure Serious Wounds Potions...heals from 4-39 HPS per swig...50 uses...only 120 points

This just doesn't make sense...

you math dun make sense too

[issiana]

Mnemonic Potions should not be on the menu for healing needs except in serious emergencies, or out of laziness to buy Heal scrolls.

totally agree with you!

even the thought that ppl whould suggest you have to buy them or healing potions from the ddo store seems totally wrong to me. If we cant do a quest with in game items without resorting to the store then theres something really really wrong.

[Newtons_Apple]

cure Serious Wounds Pot... Heals 3d8 Hp Plus Add-ons= Say Avg 30 Hps...costs Approx. 825gold W/20 Haggle
Heal Scroll....in The Hands Of A Good Cleric...crit For Say...oh, 1045 Hps?...avg Heal? Maybe 450?...cost 1650 Gold

A Nice Level 20 Fighter...600 Hps

Attempts To Be Self-sufficient Looks Alot Like The Opening Title...drink... Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot,(repeat Forever)
20 Pots To Get 600 Hps 20x825 = 16,500 Gold
2 Heal Scrolls To Get 600+ Hps 2x1,650 = 3,300 Gold

Wasted Hps From Drinking 20 Pots While Tanking? Zero
Wasted Hps From Using A Heal Scroll When The Tank Is Down 1/3 Of Health Bar [600 * 1/3 = 200 Hps Down (still Have 400 Hps)]
50% Or More

What It Costs To Buy Scrolls For A Cleric To Use While Healing The Tank? A Stack Of 100 Heal = 165,000 Gold (16,500 Plat). How Many Of Those Scrolls Get Wasted On Over-healing? Depending On The Quest, Maybe Just One? Or Two?..please, Most Likely Almost All- But What Alternatives Are There?

What's My Point?... A Level 20 Tank Has No Chance To Be Self-sufficient Or Even Lighten The Load When The Best Healing Potion In The Game Gives About As Much Benefit As A Real World Equivalent Of Eating A Couple Of Grasshoppers For A Meal...and Not Even The Chocolate-covered Ones At That.

The Costs For Clerics In These High Level Quests And Raids Are Staggering...and The Reason Is...what? Greed?

Better For Ddo If A Cleric Has To Buy 10 Mana Pots From The Store To Complete An Elite Run...along With Using 200 Healscrolls? And Maybe 100 Mass Cure Mod Scrolls Too?

Oversight? "oh, We Didn't Know Level 20 Tanks Would Have 600 Hps!?!"

Here, Let Us Offer Better Potions In The Ddo Store...how About Cure Serious Wounds Potions...heals From 4-39 Hps Per Swig...50 Uses...only 120 Points

This Just Doesn't Make Sense...

Umd Ftw.

[issiana]

Get yoself some umd, child.

agreed. it is possible to make a fighter who can umd a heal scroll with moderate success to total success, or worst case to get a cure mod wand at 100%. wands are cheaper than pots.

but that dosent fix the problem of those lvl 20's who didnt do umd from the start, as umd wasnt that good for a tank at lvl 10 cap etc.. so i agree that its far over due to change the pots a bit.

why not make them heal 3d8 +1 per lvl etc... just a thought that would be very easy to implement with current potions.

[uhgungawa]

Heal scrolls do 100-150 HP depends on enhancements (no critting on scrolls bub). Since you didn't know this, I suggest you shut it and roll a cleric before you open it again ;)

[QuantumFX]

OP: Healing Amplification is your friend. :)

[Letrii]

why not make them heal 3d8 +1 per lvl etc... just a thought that would be very easy to implement with current potions.

Because potions have a set caster level when created.

[Twerpp]

I agree 100%. This problem makes a total joke of groups who insist one be self-sufficient. One could go into a quest with 1000 wand charges and 1000 pots and use them every round and it still wouldn't meet anyone's definition of "self-sufficient" when it takes 12 pots/charges to heal one round's attack. And please offer Cure Critical Wounds wands for sale in vendor shops as well. Repair Critical wands are sold, why the discrimination?

_


Self sufficient isnt dropping 100hp heals on yourself. Its not doing this:

I has con dmg! I has poison! I has chlamydia! OMG Im blind! I (insert class that can cast their own resists) needs a resist. OMG Ive had 20% of my hp missing for 20 seconds now you arent doing your job by keeping me at 100% with a fresh Aid buff on top of that! Even though I can use a CSW wand... Whats a potion vendor?

I guess everyone has their definition of self sufficient thats mine.

[Timjc86]

As others have said, scrolls don't quite work that way: they do not benefit from metamagics or most healing enhancements (which also means they can't crit). There is a specific line of wand/scroll enhancements that can boost effectiveness by 55% for 10 APs. A Heal scroll hits for 110hp base x 1.55 = ~170, assuming the character dropped all 10 APs just for better wands/scrolls.

You also have the option of getting Heal potions via Silver Flame favor. Or you could carry Heal scrolls of your own to either UMD yourself or give them to someone who can.

It is slightly ridiculous to try and use Cure Serious pots to keep high level characters alive, but it is equally ridiculous to expect others to spend their money to take care of you.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have long thought that Ftrs/Brbs are the most expensive class to play....not Clerics.

But expecting someone else to spend money on you is not the answer.

Spell points are free (not from pots).

But trying to reduce the damage you take is free too.

Wands are cheaper than pots.

Any class of char I have will try to heal others when I can.
And if I have the money, I try to have 100CSW pots on me. And I use them.

Finally mod 9 gives enough loot to replenish my pots and still make a profit.
I've been going broke the last year, but I'm starting to recover now.

[Bunker]

What's my point?... a level 20 tank has NO chance to be Self-sufficient or even lighten the load when the best healing potion in the game gives about as much benefit as a real world equivalent of eating a couple of grasshoppers for a meal...and not even the chocolate-covered ones at that.

The costs for Clerics in these high level quests and raids are staggering...and the reason is...what? greed?



Wrong groups perhaps?
Maybe the wrong character?
Or better yet, the wrong player.


When in a group, sure it is nice to have a "melee" tank able to be self sufficent but as a divine caster (cleric or FvS), it is not tough to throw a heal now and again. If you are getting in full groups and not playing as a group, you are in the WRONG GROUP.

When you are on a lvl 20 "melee" tank and want to solo a quest, try not to think of what can be changed to have better healing for that character. Instead, try to work on what you can change on that character to prevent taking so much damage in the first place. If you want to solo, the key is not in how well you can heal yourself but rather how well you can avoid taking damage while successfully completing the quest. If you are struggling with this situation, then you are playing the WRONG CHARACTER.

There is no question that at times, (not all the time) there are groups and quests where a few resources may be consumed. In fact, that is why they are in the game. They exsist to help players when needed. However....Every Quest in this game can be completed without using a single potion, scroll, wand or mana pot. Yes, it is possible! If you are a players that thinks resources must be used in each and every quest, then strategies need to be re-evaluated. If you are in a group and the Cleric/FvS says that they need donations for scrolls and wands for EVERY quest, then they just might be the WRONG PLAYER.

[vainangel]

Perhaps if you used some strategy and had a good team working your heals while you were chuging a pot here and there... I do not see a problem. Tip your healers and buy pots to take care of things like curse, lesser restores, poision, disease, remove fear and other nice clickies....

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Cure Serious Wounds pot... heals 3d8 HP plus add-ons= say avg 30 hps...costs approx. 825gold w/20 haggle
Heal scroll....in the hands of a good cleric...crit for say...oh, 1045 hps?...Avg heal? maybe 450?...cost 1650 gold


A heal scroll is 110 hp unmodified. So, ~4 times as much as a potion, at ~3 times the price. Thats not all to big of a difference.

However I agree with your general point; give us ccw potions already.

(And caster level 20 haste potions :D)

[Madwad]

Oh and wile you at it more Backpack space so we can carry it all :D or a Gnome lacky to carry it for us :D

[GunboatDiplomat]

"Need Healing? We've got that!"

No you don't , all you've got are rip off items for newbie players who will curse the real world monies they've wasted on csw pots once they find out they're easily buyable with gold.

So I agree with the op (even though hsi math is awful), the ddo store should at least sell healing pots that are a little better than the ones you can buy from house J!

[Zenako]

Cheapest healing in the game. Hireling Clerics. Only a fraction of the plat that a stack of scrolls or a mountain of pots would cost. Just get one without a suicide death pact.

If healing costs are too high, it is probably because the tactics being used are causing them. Many times some players trade off time for in game expenses. Complete a quest a bit quicker but burn tons of resources to do it.

and as others pointed out, meta magic no longer affects items (scrolls, wands, pots, etc). At one time in a mod long ago, things were a bit different, but currently only enhancements help.

[Yajerman01]

put 1 level of pally or ranger in for full wand usage, boost your umd, or make a halfling fighter with dragon marks. All are alternatives to mitigate self healing cost. But yes, I agree they should make more potent healing pots; however, anyone who has been around long enough knows the cost of playing a pure fighter to level 20.

I would never run a pure fighter simply because I do not see the overall benefit, but thats me.

[Angelus_dead]

Two more things:

1. This is a teamplay game. It isn't intended for every character build to be self-sufficient for healing, although some are. If you choose not to be, that's up to you. It was predictable that hitpoint totals would keep increasing after potions stopped.

2. It would be a good idea for the developers to allow more characters to cover their own healing, as long as it was moderately expensive and too slow to use in combat. I shall make a suggestion (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2445494#post2445494) to that effect.

[Shade]

People do discount heal scrolls allot. Yea they can't crit for 1000+.. But they can actually do 300 to 400+

110 base, x1.75 (max bard scroll mastery) = 192.
Add some healing amp, a human ftr can get about 190%.. 1.9.. = 364.

Or paladin, hunter of the dead can get another 30%.. For over 400.

Tho silver flame 250 pots can heal for even more.. Just hard to handle them on a ftr without barb lvls as you take some heavy stat hits, and move like a snail after drinking one...

But on my barb.. Drink one (370 healing with his amp), sprint boost.. Pretty much unnoticable, still run faster then most party members.

[Visty]

People do discount heal scrolls allot. Yea they can't crit for 1000+.. But they can actually do 300 to 400+

110 base, x1.75 (max bard scroll mastery) = 192.


bards get +75% on scrolls??

[Impaqt]

bards get +75% on scrolls??


Yup, and clerics now get up to 55%.

One of mod 9's "Stealth Unnerfs"

[wamjratl1]

Self sufficient isnt dropping 100hp heals on yourself. Its not doing this:

I has con dmg! I has poison! I has chlamydia! OMG Im blind! I (insert class that can cast their own resists) needs a resist. OMG Ive had 20% of my hp missing for 20 seconds now you arent doing your job by keeping me at 100% with a fresh Aid buff on top of that! Even though I can use a CSW wand... Whats a potion vendor?

I guess everyone has their definition of self sufficient thats mine.

word.

[moops]

Self sufficient isnt dropping 100hp heals on yourself. Its not doing this:

I has con dmg! I has poison! I has chlamydia! OMG Im blind! I (insert class that can cast their own resists) needs a resist. OMG Ive had 20% of my hp missing for 20 seconds now you arent doing your job by keeping me at 100% with a fresh Aid buff on top of that! Even though I can use a CSW wand... Whats a potion vendor?

I guess everyone has their definition of self sufficient thats mine.

LOL awesome-I was going to make a response, now I no longer need to :)

[Visty]

Yup, and clerics now get up to 55%.

One of mod 9's "Stealth Unnerfs"

the cleric +55% i knew but 75% wow

[Guder]

It's been a while since I was on this rant...but I remember being very bleary-eyed when I was typing it out.
Reading back over my mixing up of what I was trying to say..I have to admit that my math looks strange but what I was trying to make the point of is that healing/supplies/strength vs resources is out of whack, IMO.

However, since I read those that chose to respond to my very obvious 'Rant'...I would just like to say that I've never seen so many idiots line up to play with themselves.

To this Guy :


Heal scrolls do 100-150 HP depends on enhancements (no critting on scrolls bub). Since you didn't know this, I suggest you shut it and roll a cleric before you open it again ;)

You BUB, are the definition of IDIOT...I'm making the argument that clerics have to spend too much on resources and you insult me about playing a cleric...what? Are you truely so stupid? Maybe your just into self-mutilation? Mommy didn't treat you nice? You wake up with nightmares about broccoli?

My thought lines were that a cleric overheals on mana healing and other sources of healing are underpowered and you give weight to my argument by using correct data of a Heal scroll only doing 100-150hps...and then you fail.

MAY I suggest you never accept the stack of Heal and stack of MassCureMod and the mana pots that are passed to you quite regularly from the rest of ANY GOOD Party since you so obviously don't need them.

And this guy...O my lord:



Wrong groups perhaps?
Maybe the wrong character?
Or better yet, the wrong player.


When in a group, sure it is nice to have a "melee" tank able to be self sufficent but as a divine caster (cleric or FvS), it is not tough to throw a heal now and again. If you are getting in full groups and not playing as a group, you are in the WRONG GROUP.
There is no question that at times, (not all the time) there are groups and quests where a few resources may be consumed. In fact, that is why they are in the game. They exsist to help players when needed. However....Every Quest in this game can be completed without using a single potion, scroll, wand or mana pot. Yes, it is possible!

You're just a blathering Idiot..not the dictionary Picture of one perhaps, but one none the less.
Have you ever been OUT of THE HARBOR? Do you HAVE ANY characters that are above level 6? Are YOU a Sept. Joined F2P?
That's got to be it...you have never run TOD, or VOD...or even noticed that I was on a rant about ELITE RUNs of THOSE Raids!

Though I do agree with you on his point...


If you are in a group and the Cleric/FvS says that they need donations for scrolls and wands for EVERY quest, then they just might be the WRONG PLAYER.

Especially since I obviously run raids with you all the time...and I so thank you for not being one of those BEGGER Cleric types.
Man, don't we hate those clerics that whine when they are out of supplies to heal...'I need scrolls'..'I need pots'...
OHHHH MY GOD....WAIT A MINUTE...ISN'T THAT THE ARGUMENT I WAS MAKING?????!!!!!!

And YES...This Gentleman...Oh, you poor lost soul...I am so sorry your mother made the choices she did...


1. Silver Flame Healing Potion
2. Level 11 Cleric Hireling
3. Heal papers to your friendly neighborhood Clerc/Fav/Bard/Rogue.

Mnemonic Potions should not be on the menu for healing needs except in serious emergencies, or out of laziness to buy Heal scrolls.

WHY, oh Why, have I never thought to bring a LEVEL 11 HIRELING CLERIC into TOD? Tsk, TSk..shame on me...Oh the shame...

Let me just reiterate the point I wanted to make...as I could go on with the rat-killing but I'll let it go for now:
1.) Other than cleric/fs mana healing...there really isnt other useful healing for Tanks as Pots are too weak.
2.) Certainly one may UMD better healing resources.
3.) Certainly one may utilize other types of heal potions.
4.) Certainly, if one wishes to lose Nine(9) Armor Class, 20% healing Amp, Elemental Absorbtion, Etc...one may chose to not use Pots while holding the agro of Sully or Harry or any manner of end bosses.
5.) Certainly, one could build a toon other than what I chose...and there may be reasons to take more or less levels of Pally or Monk or be a different race...and of course wearing useful equipment may help to stave off this senario:

Self sufficient isnt dropping 100hp heals on yourself. Its not doing this:

I has con dmg! I has poison! I has chlamydia! OMG Im blind! I (insert class that can cast their own resists) needs a resist. OMG Ive had 20% of my hp missing for 20 seconds now you arent doing your job by keeping me at 100% with a fresh Aid buff on top of that! Even though I can use a CSW wand... Whats a potion vendor?

I guess everyone has their definition of self sufficient thats mine.

So I guess I will stick with my 600+hp, 75+AC, 35+ on all saves, 30% healing Amp, 70+ Intimidate, 35+ UMD, 25% Elemental absorbtions, Evasion, 34 Strength, 34 Constitution, 36 DR, All resists, All Immunities....
and drink 30 point HP pots and LIKE IT

[Bunker]

It's been a while since I was on this rant...but I remember being very bleary-eyed when I was typing it out.
Reading back over my mixing up of what I was trying to say..I have to admit that my math looks strange but what I was trying to make the point of is that healing/supplies/strength vs resources is out of whack, IMO.

However, since I read those that chose to respond to my very obvious 'Rant'...I would just like to say that I've never seen so many idiots line up to play with themselves.


And this guy...O my lord:



You're just a blathering Idiot..not the dictionary Picture of one perhaps, but one none the less.
Have you ever been OUT of THE HARBOR? Do you HAVE ANY characters that are above level 6? Are YOU a Sept. Joined F2P?
That's got to be it...you have never run TOD, or VOD...or even noticed that I was on a rant about ELITE RUNs of THOSE Raids!
It is hard to notice that you are ranting about 2 high level raids on Elite WHEN YOU DONT' SAY THAT!!!!! Try adding that in your discussion and you might actually make more sense. *thumbsup

As for me ever being out of the harbor: You obviously have me pegged. Your assumptions are dead on. HAHAHAHA


Though I do agree with you on his point...

Especially since I obviously run raids with you all the time...and I so thank you for not being one of those BEGGER Cleric types.
Man, don't we hate those clerics that whine when they are out of supplies to heal...'I need scrolls'..'I need pots'...
OHHHH MY GOD....WAIT A MINUTE...ISN'T THAT THE ARGUMENT I WAS MAKING?????!!!!!!


I don't see the problem, other then the fact that you call me out as a blathering idiot. If I agree with a point you say you are trying to make, where again is your problem. Other then the obvious problem.

[Guder]

It is hard to notice that you are ranting about 2 high level raids on Elite WHEN YOU DONT' SAY THAT!!!!! Try adding that in your discussion and you might actually make more sense. *thumbsup

As for me ever being out of the harbor: You obviously have me pegged. Your assumptions are dead on. HAHAHAHA


I don't see the problem, other then the fact that you call me out as a blathering idiot. If I agree with a point you say you are trying to make, where again is your problem. Other then the obvious problem.

I'm sorry, friend..what part of this english do you need me to spell?

The costs for Clerics in these high level quests and raids are staggering...and the reason is...what? greed?

Better for DDO if a cleric has to buy 10 mana pots from the Store to complete an Elite run...along with using 200 HealScrolls? and maybe 100 Mass Cure Mod scrolls too?

[captain1z]

I'm sorry, friend..

Hey Guder,


The forums can be a very hostile place, as I learned back when I first started posting on them. Dont get involved in arguements like this, your a lot better than that. Just accept that every idea or post you put up will be shot at from every angle.......... thats just how it is. Different ppl, different views.

Come on back to Ghalla where everybody knows your name................ and they're always glad you came.
You wanna go where people know the troubles are all the same....... you wanna be where everybody knows your name. :)

(avoid the drama, you dont need it)

Only player I know that leaves and item for every cleric in EVERY chest, every quest.

[Guder]

;
However....Every Quest in this game can be completed without using a single potion, scroll, wand or mana pot. Yes, it is possible! If you are a players that thinks resources must be used in each and every quest, then strategies need to be re-evaluated.

answer deleted b/c it was my own vanity and Captain is right
2nd Edit:
BTW Captain, credit for cleric leavings should go to the Zap as he gave me the idea first and I just carry it through.

[krud]

Some classes are better at soloing than others. You have to consider that when building a toon. Self sufficiency goes well beyond carrying multiple 100 stacks of potions around. Evryone of my melee toons can either umd or cast their own wands (or scrolls). It's not that bad if you can alternate csw wand pot wand pot...

Though I don't have the favor, I hear silver flame pots are quite good for the high hp ftr or barb.

[Bunker]

I'm sorry, friend..what part of this english do you need me to spell?

Thx Guder. I did not see those 2 lines with in the entire wall of text. In any case, I stand by saying that if done correctly with a great strategy, no quest in this game requires resources.

Don't let that comment think i dont' indulge in a Mana Pot or 20 once in a while. As for me never leaving the harbor, I was kidding. I've been around. I consume resourses and also have the ability to consume none.

I also don't fly off the handles when other post opinions on subjects I bring to the forums. That is why you brought this subject to the forums, isn't it? To gather opinions and raise awareness on the topic. It wasn't to wait for replies and then defend them as if we were posting to attack you. That would be just silly.

[seldarin]

Self sufficient isnt dropping 100hp heals on yourself. Its not doing this:

I has con dmg! I has poison! I has chlamydia! OMG Im blind! I (insert class that can cast their own resists) needs a resist. OMG Ive had 20% of my hp missing for 20 seconds now you arent doing your job by keeping me at 100% with a fresh Aid buff on top of that! Even though I can use a CSW wand... Whats a potion vendor?

I guess everyone has their definition of self sufficient thats mine.

To the OP, that above quote is what majority allude to when talking about self sufficiency. Alternatively, if you join a group that doesnt have a healer in it, dont expect that someone else in the party is going to bust out a wand to heal your sorry ass because you couldnt be bothered bring pots. Thats what self sufficiency LFMs are about, about not being a lazy, greedy, inconsiderate asswad when joining a group.

Every one of my chars can heal in one form or another. 2 x clerics, 1 x pally, 2 x rangers, 1 x rogue, 1 x sorc, 1 x bard, 1 x rogue/ranger/monk, 1 x fighter/ranger. Every single one of them can wand heal, most can scroll heal, some even have healing spells, including my rangers. All of them carry 300 csw pots, as well as pots for all ailments. My clerics carry at least 300 heal scrolls and 300 mcmw scrolls and any other class that can use them carry 100-200 of each. That is being self sufficient. If i cant use it, i give it to someone that can.

As to overhealing, yep that does happen all to frequently and that is where you sort out the good clerics from the bad. I dont take donations on my clerics, its a personal thing, same as i dont shell out donations for most instances either. If its been a really rough quest and the casters (including bards and arcanes) have chewed through a bunch of gear, i reimburse, but if its just due to wastage, i dont.

The self sufficiency is about those that continually ask for rem curse/blindness/disease/lesser restore for that 1 point of cha the fighter has lost, or various other inane things that can readily be bought. As i point out to most, you can buy a pot for that, and when they say, why should i use a pot when your cleric can do it for free, i respond with, well i guess thats one less heal you will get isnt it.

Either learn the lesson or you are going to be in for very short thrift in groups im in on my healer.

[captain1z]

Back on topic..............


As a dwarf fighter with over 600 hps and rising I think its well past time for us to have stronger healing options outside of a clerics SP. As it stands now I need to eat 2 rations in a tavern to heal up fully and drink about 50 pots in quest (assuming a cleric is not around).

What I tend to do is walk around with 100 cure pots, at least 2 mana pots and offer to supplie some heal scrolls if I dont have any to give away. In lower level quest I'll buy wands for palis,clerics, rangers pretty much anyone who can and will use em. It gets expensive, no doubt, and I wish there was a cheaper alternative.

Im sure the plan of battle must have some readily available form of super healing.

- Very pricey, min level 17 heal pots, that heal 110 a pop (maybe they only stack in 5's)
- a more powerful tasty ham that lets you regen 100 hp over time (or a potion)
- Distilled extra potency cure serious pots that cure for twice the normal amount


I mean this is another plane, they have got to have stuff that we dont to heal the natives from the constant wars they have. I would not say no to some new wonder of modern alchemy besides those attribute pots, which I feel are not really needed.

[Bunker]

Back on topic..............


As a dwarf fighter with over 600 hps and rising I think its well past time for us to have stronger healing options outside of a clerics SP. As it stands now I need to eat 2 rations in a tavern to heal up fully and drink about 50 pots in quest (assuming a cleric is not around).

What I tend to do is walk around with 100 cure pots, at least 2 mana pots and offer to supplie some heal scrolls if I dont have any to give away. In lower level quest I'll buy wands for palis,clerics, rangers pretty much anyone who can and will use em. It gets expensive, no doubt, and I wish there was a cheaper alternative.

Im sure the plan of battle must have some readily available form of super healing.

- Very pricey, min level 17 heal pots, that heal 110 a pop (maybe they only stack in 5's)
- a more powerful tasty ham that lets you regen 100 hp over time (or a potion)
- Distilled extra potency cure serious pots that cure for twice the normal amount


I mean this is another plane, they have got to have stuff that we dont to heal the natives from the constant wars they have. I would not say no to some new wonder of modern alchemy besides those attribute pots, which I feel are not really needed.

400 Silver Flame Favor Will solve the Heal Potion problem. You can purchase potions that do more then 110 a pop. And I think, they come in stacks of 10. (somoe will have to confirm that) Reach 400 silverflame favor, check em out.

Note: They have a minor defect, but it doesn't last long, and they are still well worth it for those 600+ dwarf melee lvl 20 meatshields.

[GlassCannon]

Note: GC Edited this quote.
1. Silver Flame Healing Potion (-10 ALL stats, -13 all saves, -13 all skills and 50% Slow for 30 seconds)
2. Level 11 Cleric Hireling (Dies in half a second to 3 seconds. Helicopter Door Gunners have better life expectancy.)
3. Heal papers to your friendly neighborhood Clerc/Fav/Bard/Rogue.

Mnemonic Potions should not be on the menu for healing needs except in serious emergencies, or out of laziness to buy Heal scrolls.

Mnemonic Pots are now mandatory, a la Turbine. Clerics simply cannot sustain the heals necessary to keep everyone alive in the chaos generated by those ambushes in Sins and New Invasion. The end fight in New Invasion is equally taxing to the budget.

[GlassCannon]

400 Silver Flame Favor Will solve the Heal Potion problem.

It most certainly WILL NOT.

It solves 1 thing: Killing you faster.

See above post for details... or do you need a screenshot of how badly it f*cks a Monk over?

These pots are a waste of time now. Seek another alternative.

[Bunker]

Mnemonic Pots are now mandatory, a la Turbine. Clerics simply cannot sustain the heals necessary to keep everyone alive in the chaos generated by those ambushes in Sins and New Invasion. The end fight in New Invasion is equally taxing to the budget.

In Raids, yes I would say Mnemonics are nice to have. In quests like Sins and New Invasion, not at all. I have been in New Invasion where things went sour but that was the first time. Now after being in there 3-6 times and completing on all difficulties, I would have to say if the party has a good strategy, no resources are needed. Especially in the last fight on New Invasion. (there is a shrine right before you jump down, so your entire party should be buffed and full of mana anyways.)

[Bunker]

It most certainly WILL NOT.

It solves 1 thing: Killing you faster.

See above post for details... or do you need a screenshot of how badly it f*cks a Monk over?

These pots are a waste of time now. Seek another alternative.

You will have to go into mroe detail on what you mean by the above. The potions gie you a TEMPORARY negative to your stats. The benift though is that they heal you for either 100 or 250 depending on the potion. (not sure it those #s are correct) The stats will bounce back to your original numbers and you will be healed.

[GlassCannon]

You will have to go into mroe detail on what you mean by the above. The potions gie you a TEMPORARY negative to your stats. The benift though is that they heal you for either 100 or 250 depending on the potion. (not sure it those #s are correct) The stats will bounce back to your original numbers and you will be healed.

The only time you need that boost to HP is IN COMBAT. Imagine taking that kind of hit with 8 devils stabbing you from all directions, autocritting most builds... if you aren't paralyzed your DPS is cut in half, then over half again by the stat deduction. You become useless. It's nice for after the fact, but when you really need the pots, they are 100% worthless... well, less than worthless... perhaps more like 500% worthless.

POW! Pot used. -10 AC, -60+ Max HP, Paralyzed, -13 to all saves(Extremely vulnerable, unless your saves were all over 40 to begin with), -13 to UMD(Can't get the Cleric back up now heh) and Intimidate(Can't save the Rogue either)....

[GlassCannon]

In Raids, yes I would say Mnemonics are nice to have. In quests like Sins and New Invasion, not at all. I have been in New Invasion where things went sour but that was the first time. Now after being in there 3-6 times and completing on all difficulties, I would have to say if the party has a good strategy, no resources are needed. Especially in the last fight on New Invasion. (there is a shrine right before you jump down, so your entire party should be buffed and full of mana anyways.)

You must have a lot of well geared, prepared and talented parties. On Argonnessen, things are vastly different. We generally get a roll of d3-1 on those 3 requisites.

[Bunker]

The only time you need that boost to HP is IN COMBAT. Imagine taking that kind of hit with 8 devils stabbing you from all directions, autocritting most builds... if you aren't paralyzed your DPS is cut in half, then over half again by the stat deduction. You become useless. It's nice for after the fact, but when you really need the pots, they are 100% worthless... well, less than worthless... perhaps more like 500% worthless.

During combat though, that is what the divine casters in your group are for. It is covering the fighters end on healing between fights that a lot of fighters/barbarians end up chugging many potions. If a fighter/barbarian isn't chugging a cure serious pot in combat, I dont' see him drinking a silverflame pot either.

The silverflame potions are great! I use to drink them on my Dwarf Wizard. I et into trouble, stand in da Wall of Fire and drink a potion. :)

I cannot help the choices that a min/max build makes. If thier Cha is 6 to start, then those potions will not be good for them. The potions however are quite handy and have been around since the Necropolis was out. (2 years i think)

If a figher/barbarian is chugging cure serious potions in combat (the combat you are talking about, 8 devils whoopen him) then where is the cleric or FvS to help him out. Maybe that melee isn't ready to fight them if he is put in those situations. When it comes to that situation, I don't think a potion can or should cure that problem.

[Bunker]

You must have a lot of well geared, prepared and talented parties. On Argonnessen, things are vastly different. We generally get a roll of d3-1 on those 3 requisites.

d3-1? What is that. Are you saying on Argonnessen times be tough to get a good group?

If that is so, I'm sorry for that. There should be talent and skill on all servers. If that is lacking on Argo, come on down to Thelanis. We help you out. If that isn't the case, disregard as I'm not trying to belittle Argo, just giving a possible solution to a possible problem. :)

[ddoer]

Mnemonic Pots are now mandatory, a la Turbine. Clerics simply cannot sustain the heals necessary to keep everyone alive in the chaos generated by those ambushes in Sins and New Invasion. The end fight in New Invasion is equally taxing to the budget.

disagree. I think either you have used bad tactic or teamed with bad people.

for Sins, you can handle the ambushes easily with a caster using heightened web, or a decent intimidate tank, or just ask the cleric to grab aggro and BB every mob. when there are 8-10 devils/orthons ambushing, the party needs to find a way to do crowd control.
for New Invasion, you don't need to fight most mobs and could run pass them in stealth. For the end fight, if you party stick together to fight and then move tile by tile, you won't have chance to drink pots at all.



d3-1? What is that. Are you saying on Argonnessen times be tough to get a good group?

If that is so, I'm sorry for that. There should be talent and skill on all servers. If that is lacking on Argo, come on down to Thelanis. We help you out. If that isn't the case, disregard as I'm not trying to belittle Argo, just giving a possible solution to a possible problem. :)

I'm from Argo, too. if you seriously want to know it is possible to complete those quests without drinking pots, send me a PM and I could 2-man the 2 quests you mentioned with you.

if you read the sorc forum recently, many people seems to claim or imply they could solo the new quests without problem (and pots). Maybe it's really tough for melee who can't heal themselves quickly in combat.

[Bunker]

I'm from Argo, too. if you seriously want to know it is possible to complete those quests without drinking pots, send me a PM and I could 2-man the 2 quests you mentioned with you.

if you read the sorc forum recently, many people seems to claim or imply they could solo the new quests without problem (and pots). Maybe it's really tough for melee who can't heal themselves quickly in combat.

That is not what I was saying at all. I was simply trying to get an understanding of what GlassCannon said when he posted:

You must have a lot of well geared, prepared and talented parties. On Argonnessen, things are vastly different. We generally get a roll of d3-1 on those 3 requisites.
I know it can be 2-manned or even completed solo. I personally have done New Invasion on all 3 difficulties solo with my FvS. I imagine there are players on every server that can do it.

When G.C. said on Argo, "things are vastly different", I was just trying to ascertain what he was saying.

Edit: When soloing New Invasion on elite, I drank 1 Mnemonic. *gulp :)

[Zenako]

grain of salt time guys.

GC always seems to have hard times finding groups able to handle end game content without excessive resources based on tons of posts along the same lines, which seems to reflect on his circle of players more than the intrinsic challenge of the quests. His hyperbole on how hard some of those quests are must be tempered with that consideration.

I know on Sarlona, I have on occasion run into players who had no context of how others play. One melee pug for example was talking about how "badass" he was while we were running a flagging run in Tor. What our group/guild considered SOP, was simply blowing him away, and I venture to say that our toons/gear were not completely top flight, just very good. So it can be a perspective thing. He thought we were using some sort of game code cheat to kill the mobs so fast, since he had no clue that when a mob is stoned, it is auto crited. (So we had all pulled out our W/P or /P weapons to dispatch the giants in a second or two, while he had nothing but a nice, but ultimately mediocre DPS weapon.)

Stuff and techniques that some groups/guilds/players know and take for granted are really not always that well known to many players, and often times those can make the quests or mobs in fights a LOT easier to take down.

[Narmolanya]

And I thought this thread was going to be about a new Hippie class