Tower of Despair (ToD) Part 2 for casters - kiting tactic and cold engineering

[ddoer]

I've completed ToD once with my ranger but failed in part 2 twice for my drow Sorc 20. afaik, there are 2 methods: kiting and bouncing. The bouncing method requires some coordination with another caster. Probably it's the best way to go with my current gear and I'll explore that later. My post will focus on kiting that I have some experience. And the information should be useful to bouncing method too.

I suppose I can't run faster than the Shadowfiend. afaik, it will hit me if I run in straight line, and only if I run in circle around the pillar could avoid some hits. The first issue is if there are any best route or technique in running? from the 4-man run thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2410696), the sorc is able to kite for 6 mins, and I believe he is all on his own. And in fully party, I assume I have to survive for 2-3 mins.

The second issue is interruption. I tried to use heal scroll and cast protection but keep interrupted. It may be just unlucky, or lag, or the Shadowfiend is able to make multiple attacks in a short time until i die. With fire shield and cold resistence, each attack hits me at around 90 damage per hit. (should be after cleared my protection) According to the compendium (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Concentration), concentration check is calculated as follows:

When a spellcaster is hit during the process of casting a spell, a concentration check (1d20 + concentration modifier) is rolled against a target DC (10 + damage dealt + level of spell being cast).

With 90 damage, there is no chance I could success in any concentration check. So the solutions are:

reduce the cold damage (see the cold engineering part) and maximize concentration
find a timing to cast without being hit
get someone to keeping healing and casting cold protection on me


The above hasn't considered there might be multiple Shadowfiend striking you. I believe there should be a dedicated healer who can cast cold protection for the kiting casters.


Edited:

my check list and advice (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2461613#post2461613)
Shade's post on another thread about how the Shadowfiend spawn in part 2 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2461797#post2461797)

[ddoer]

First of all, I want to figure out if I can get my concentration check success without swapping to the quicken feat just for the 3-min fight ToD part 2. (quicken is never needed in any other quest to me, not even solo'g Sins) besides, does quicken help using heal scroll?

Cold Damage vs Concentration skills
Fire shield and cold resistance are basic requirement. As long as we can self heal and keep casting cold protection in ongoing basis reliably, we can kite for a long time. The biggest issue is self healing and cold protection casting won't work under attack without quicken. Some good anti-cold engineering to reduce damage is a must.

Assume it hits at 225 cold damage on normal, 50% are reduced by the fire shield, and 30 are reduced by cold resistance, and I got 83 real damage. Some people said they got 300+ damage. (Please provide more information if you have.)

My concentration skills was 46, and I believe I could push to 55+. Let's say we have 55. The concentration check formula is as follows:

When a spellcaster is hit during the process of casting a spell, a concentration check (1d20 + concentration modifier) is rolled against a target DC (10 + damage dealt + level of spell being cast).

Heal is a level 6 spell, Protection from Energy is level 3. so, 55+1d20 must be larger than 10+damage+6. Say we want be success in the check when roll 1, so, 56 = damage + 16 -> damage = 40. So we need to reduce the damage per hit to 40. It's doable.

Cold engineering
Afaik, a Shroud weapon could do a total of 45% Cold Absorption (10+15+20%), and an item can gives 15 Inherent cold resistance on top of the 30 cold resistance we are already get. So, the damage will be:
225-50% = 113
113-45 = 68
68-45% = 37

Not difficult. Just costly. It's six large scales!


Edited:

changed the damage figure in this post for normal
my post on another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2461587&posted=1#post2461587) about the damage of Shadowfiend

[juniorpfactors]

I've completed ToD once with my ranger but failed in part 2 twice for my drow Sorc 20. afaik, there are 2 methods: kiting and bouncing. The bouncing method requires some coordination with another caster. Probably it's the best way to go with my current gear and I'll explore that later. My post will focus on kiting that I have some experience. And the information should be useful to bouncing method too.

I suppose I can't run faster than the Shadowfiend. afaik, it will hit me if I run in straight line, and only if I run in circle around the pillar could avoid some hits. The first issue is if there are any best route or technique in running? from the 4-man run thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2410696), the sorc is able to kite for 6 mins, and I believe he is all on his own. And in fully party, I assume I have to survive for 2-3 mins.

The second issue is interruption. I tried to use heal scroll and cast protection but keep interrupted. It may be just unlucky, or lag, or the Shadowfiend is able to make multiple attacks in a short time until i die. With fire shield and cold resistence, each attack hits me at around 90 damage per hit. (should be after cleared my protection) According to the compendium (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Concentration), concentration check is calculated as follows:


With 90 damage, there is no chance I could success in any concentration check. So the solutions are:

reduce the cold damage (see the cold engineering part) and maximize concentration
find a timing to cast without being hit
get someone to keeping healing and casting cold protection on me


The above hasn't considered there might be multiple Shadowfiend striking you. I believe there should be a dedicated healer who can cast cold protection for the kiting casters.


or GET QUICKEN ;)

jrp

[SimVerg]

You can outrun Fiends in a straight line while hasted. You can also jump cast with quicken in a straight line while hasted and ff'ing, provided your spell casts before you hit the ground.

[Xionanx]

If your looking for info on further reducing the cold damage.

Fireshield = -50%
Protection From Cold
Cold Resist

Is about all I can think of.

Extended Fireshield should last most of the fight, though you may need to cast it a second time if it drags on.

Cold Resist will last the whole fight..

Protection from Cold should only be cast again IF you get hit and are clearly far enough away to not get hit again.

Quicken is your friend

Scroll casting is gonna be slow

[smatt]

If your looking for info on further reducing the cold damage.

Fireshield = -50%
Protection From Cold
Cold Resist

Is about all I can think of.

Extended Fireshield should last most of the fight, though you may need to cast it a second time if it drags on.

Cold Resist will last the whole fight..

Protection from Cold should only be cast again IF you get hit and are clearly far enough away to not get hit again.

Quicken is your friend

Scroll casting is gonna be slow


You're forgetting a Shroud crafted fire absorbtion item (weapon).... Tier 1=10%, tier 2=15%, tier 3=15% = 40% total......

[Xionanx]

You're forgetting a Shroud crafted fire absorbtion item (weapon).... Tier 1=10%, tier 2=15%, tier 3=15% = 40% total......

Heh, not sure I would craft an item just to kite mobs in 1 raid but ehh, I'm sure there is someone out there with a bag full of mats and nothing to do with em....

[smatt]

Heh, not sure I would craft an item just to kite mobs in 1 raid but ehh, I'm sure there is someone out there with a bag full of mats and nothing to do with em....


There are a lot of people thsoe types of people the shroud has been out for eons........... And for any on Ghallandra that don't have them... Look me up.... If you have the non-worthless baubles to trade..... And besides even a tier 2 is still 25% which is a significant amount when sacked with cold shield, resist 30, and protection.

So you get -30, then protection, then -50%, then -25%..... It's a lot of damage mitigation and well worth a few ingredients..... And considering they've fixed the Bard exploit so many were using...... And it being the new end game raid, if you have a toon capable of kiting it's definately worth it IMO

[SimVerg]

There are a lot of people thsoe types of people the shroud has been out for eons........... And for any on Ghallandra that don't have them... Look me up.... If you have the non-worthless baubles to trade..... And besides even a tier 2 is still 25% which is a significant amount when sacked with cold shield, resist 30, and protection.

So you get -30, then protection, then -50%, then -25%..... It's a lot of damage mitigation and well worth a few ingredients..... And considering they've fixed the Bard exploit so many were using...... And it being the new end game raid, if you have a toon capable of kiting it's definately worth it IMO

I don't know of anyone that was using a bard to fascinate the shadowfiends(who aren't purple named anyways).

[Impaqt]

A Hasted Barbarian.. Or better yet Acrobat ROgue or High level monk can put some serious distance between themselves and the shadow Fiends. (Or my Acribat Rogue/Barb build :) )
Have the sorc or wiz keep firewalls up and stand back. Once the fiends pop, they will aggro on the caster and the Kiting can use a Bow or other ranged attack to get the aggro off the arcane.

Keep FIrewalls unenhanced so its easy to pull the aggro off the caster.

Not fully tested in-game yet... But I was kiting on my rogue build and they could not catch me. Only got killed when I bumped into a new spawn.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

We've always had good success rates with a monk - get them to charge their ki on the orthons before the fight - then the monk can run v v fast and also in an emergency they can abundant step.

I think a favored soul with leap of faith would work too, but they would be running slower than the monk or a barbarian.

Remember unless you're not using 30% striders - giving people haste won't speed them up - only barbs/monks run faster than 30% now.

Garth

[Junts]

You can outrun Fiends in a straight line while hasted. You can also jump cast with quicken in a straight line while hasted and ff'ing, provided your spell casts before you hit the ground.

if you cast on your way up while jumping, basic sorc-quicken is adequate and ff isnt required; in fact, ffing back down is a slight loss of speed compared to full fall speed, so you would be better off not using feather fall in pt 2.

its important for low str casetrs to ensure that they are not medium encumbered from loot weight if they are kiting.

the shadowfiends die when nythiros reaches 2/3 of his health.

My kiting strategy is to drop a firewall at the base of thes tairs, plus two more as 'wings' off of that one, so that there's no sneaking up the stair corners.

when the shadowfiends die, renew those 3 firewalls, haste, and fireshield:cold. On the 3rd subsequent lap and later, throw a fresh firewall (jump-cast) in the vicinity of the stairs as you pass by. Placing 'wing' firewalls is important, because one that is angled at all will not get the corners of the stairwell. Shadowfiends emerging in the middle and lower parts of the area will aggro you first visually; the ones you need to hit firewalls come out of the 4 northern doors, so placing your firewalls between those doors and the stairwell is the key.

I usually also place one firewall in the southern section that i run through on each lap, so that shadowfiends chasing me on purely visual aggro will hit it and be picked up.

Its important not to make too wide circles; your primary danger is in shadowfiends that emerge from the right door on the north wall, or the far north door on the west wall, from cutting off your circular path. You're essentially making an oval shape more than a circle, and you want to cut close corners on the pillars you loop by, as the shadowfiends will hit htem and be momentarily slowed.

[Impaqt]

We've always had good success rates with a monk - get them to charge their ki on the orthons before the fight - then the monk can run v v fast and also in an emergency they can abundant step.

I think a favored soul with leap of faith would work too, but they would be running slower than the monk or a barbarian.

Remember unless you're not using 30% striders - giving people haste won't speed them up - only barbs/monks run faster than 30% now.

Garth

And acrobats.

[SimVerg]

Remember unless you're not using 30% striders - giving people haste won't speed them up - only barbs/monks run faster than 30% now.

Garth

Haste is definitely faster than 30 striders.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Haste is definitely faster than 30 striders.

Unless they changed it in patch 1 - it wasn't in mod9 - but I'll reserve my judgment on your rebuttal until I get into game tonight.

Garth

[Impaqt]

Haste is definitely faster than 30 striders.

Attack Speed, Of course, is. Movement is not anymore.

[Gratch]

Attack Speed, Of course, is. Movement is not anymore.

Haste used to be 40% movement bump. From my testing with a striding friend, seems it's now closer to 25% movement. I believe the attack speed bump is still 25%.

[MrCow]

Haste is still a 40% boost to movement speed. I ran my stretch down Ruined Halls (from the quest entrance down to the wall with the dragon painting covered in the webs) and it took 26.5 seconds in 30% striding and 24 seconds in haste. These are the exact same numbers as I got back in module 8 for these speeds.

[Impaqt]

Haste is still a 40% boost to movement speed. I ran my stretch down Ruined Halls (from the quest entrance down to the wall with the dragon painting covered in the webs) and it took 26.5 seconds in 30% striding and 24 seconds in haste. These are the exact same numbers as I got back in module 8 for these speeds.

It was changed back in todays patch?

[smatt]

Haste is still a 40% boost to movement speed. I ran my stretch down Ruined Halls (from the quest entrance down to the wall with the dragon painting covered in the webs) and it took 26.5 seconds in 30% striding and 24 seconds in haste. These are the exact same numbers as I got back in module 8 for these speeds.


Hmm, my figures were 26.324 and 23.213 respectively.... :p


Sorry, I guess there's certainly a good place for such measurements... But I'm just saying :D

[smatt]

It was changed back in todays patch?


It has certainly "Appeared" to be slower since DDO_EU... Not sure if that's actually the case.... And while it has appeared slower, I haven't noticed mobs catching me any more often than they did before....

[Quikster]

Haste used to be 40% movement bump. From my testing with a striding friend, seems it's now closer to 25% movement. I believe the attack speed bump is still 25%.

The question to ask, is does it stack with striders, because it didnt stack with 30 striders when DDO:EU was released.

[smatt]

The question to ask, is does it stack with striders, because it didnt stack with 30 striders when DDO:EU was released.


It never "Stacked" with striders... It overroad striders.... So if hasted it didn't matter what % striding you were wearing you were running 40% faster than normal.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Haste is still a 40% boost to movement speed. I ran my stretch down Ruined Halls (from the quest entrance down to the wall with the dragon painting covered in the webs) and it took 26.5 seconds in 30% striding and 24 seconds in haste. These are the exact same numbers as I got back in module 8 for these speeds.

OK - if this is data from this afternoon - then I will (albeit unwillingly) recommence my hasting of parties I am in when we run through the devil battlefield :) Let the complaints from my guildies cease!

Garth

[MrCow]

OK - if this is data from this afternoon

Aye, it is from about an hour ago. Although, those who want can always try it for themselves to see if there is a difference.

[ddoer]

or GET QUICKEN ;)

jrp

searched the forum and it seems quicken does not help scroll usage. So it will only help me to cast cold protection but not heal scroll. If the cold damage is under 120, it means I'll never get hurt (if i'm attacked by only 1 shadowfiend at a time) as long as I keep watching the cold protection number. But I seriously don't want to get quicken just for this. (unless there are really no other option)

See the second post at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2388294

[Junts]

searched the forum and it seems quicken does not help scroll usage. So it will only help me to cast cold protection but not heal scroll. If the cold damage is under 120, it means I'll never get hurt (if i'm attacked by only 1 shadowfiend at a time) as long as I keep watching the cold protection number. But I seriously don't want to get quicken just for this. (unless there are really no other option)

See the second post at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2388294


if you cannot self-heal the person watching you to serve as potential backup should healyou when you pass by again

you will not be able to scroll heal yourself while kiting

[maddmatt70]

After having completed this quest a bunch of times and finding I/we are still having trouble with part 2 on a decent % of runs I can not help but feel there is a better solution then kiting. The problem I see with kiting is the learning and familiarity curve for each new kiter and getting aggro on new spawned mobs for an experienced kiter. It can take several runs before a kiter is pretty solid at it and even then getting aggro on a new wave of the mobs is not always straightforward even for experienced kiters. Just last night we failed a hard run with an experienced kiter and 2 normal runs with an inexperienced kiter. We were successful on 3 other runs with experienced kiters. It seems to me that there has to be a better method toward beating part 2. I am aware of the casters bouncing agro between each other method, but I foresee alot of coordination issues for this method so I am skeptical of that method as well.

[SimVerg]

After having completed this quest a bunch of times and finding I/we are still having trouble with part 2 on a decent % of runs I can not help but feel there is a better solution then kiting. The problem I see with kiting is the learning and familiarity curve for each new kiter and getting aggro on new spawned mobs for an experienced kiter. It can take several runs before a kiter is pretty solid at it and even then getting aggro on a new wave of the mobs is not always straightforward even for experienced kiters. Just last night we failed a hard run with an experienced kiter and 2 normal runs with an inexperienced kiter. We were successful on 3 other runs with experienced kiters. It seems to me that there has to be a better method toward beating part 2. I am aware of the casters bouncing agro between each other method, but I foresee alot of coordination issues for this method so I am skeptical of that method as well.

You can try sending someone into the halls during the fight to see if there are portals to be killed or something(I suspect this is where the Mistress of Pain optional is found also) but the mobs definitely fit the profile of a mob that is designed to be kited(massive no-save aoe damage on touch, slower than haste, multiple spawn times to add difficulty as the fight progresses.)

[Shade]

Successfully kited them for quite a while on my sorc with no movement speed bost other then haste.

My strategy is to simple run around counter clockwise, around the big pillars.. They run exactly the same speed as me, but sometimes they fail at pathing around hte pillars and go around a long way - giving me an edge. I jump cast firewalls to maintain agro on any new spawns near the party, so no matter where I am they come. We killed him fairly fast so I think i only had 8 or so but took zero hits once i got the flow down.

Another time I tried to show someone else how to do it as I did it,, he died and I tried to rez him with a clicky - the half a second slowdown from using the clicky killed me.. So theres so very litte margin for error. I can't use heal scrolls on myself without some risk of losing speed, so i generally wand it if I take a hit, there faster - jump cast without any speed loss.

On my barbarian i can kite dozens of them and take several hits and drink silver flame pots, runs faster and more hp.. easier. Tho i need good bard buffs to get my ranged to hit up to get the agro.

For now i can do this with about a 95% or higher chance of success. It did take me a couple tries to figure out tho, so getting new players to do it is always risky.

[Twerpp]

A Hasted Barbarian.. Or better yet Acrobat ROgue or High level monk can put some serious distance between themselves and the shadow Fiends. (Or my Acribat Rogue/Barb build :) )
Have the sorc or wiz keep firewalls up and stand back. Once the fiends pop, they will aggro on the caster and the Kiting can use a Bow or other ranged attack to get the aggro off the arcane.

Keep FIrewalls unenhanced so its easy to pull the aggro off the caster.

Not fully tested in-game yet... But I was kiting on my rogue build and they could not catch me. Only got killed when I bumped into a new spawn.

How would a hasted barbarian, rogue, or monk make all the fiends want to follow them though? How could they get aggro without becoming a grease spot? It would be interesting, maybe manyshot I could see working.

[Shade]

How would a hasted barbarian, rogue, or monk make all the fiends want to follow them though? How could they get aggro without becoming a grease spot? It would be interesting, maybe manyshot I could see working.

It's actually rather easy. You only need to deal 1 point of damage to get agro. They have very standard agro and about 10 DR. Manyshot doesn't really matter, that just ups DPS, and 1 dmg is enough.. Rapidshot helps ofcourse, so rangers do make good candidates.

On my Barb, I just use my throwing axe on them. It is a nice greensteel one, but really any old +5 will do. They have about 41AC so aren't too hard to hit.. Hit em everytime with 20 dex + max warchanter buff.

Babrs are good because you can sprint ahead of them, stop to eliminate ur -4 penalty to hit, attack a couple times and still not get hit before they catch up.

I think any class with a bit of dex or magic attacks can do it tho.

[ddoer]

if you cannot self-heal the person watching you to serve as potential backup should healyou when you pass by again

you will not be able to scroll heal yourself while kiting

I got exactly the same idea. For 2 non-WF casters, it's better for them to cast firewall in two layers and the one that cast the deeper layer do healing and backup for the other.


Another time I tried to show someone else how to do it as I did it,, he died and I tried to rez him with a clicky - the half a second slowdown from using the clicky killed me.. So theres so very litte margin for error. I can't use heal scrolls on myself without some risk of losing speed, so i generally wand it if I take a hit, there faster - jump cast without any speed loss.


Using wand is a very good idea. I found it difficult to use heal scroll as well.


For the last run, from the combat log, I seem to get hit at 5x and 83. If it's really necessary to use heal scroll, i think it is better to cast cold protection first, and then there is a chance to success in the concentration check in the next heal scroll attempt.

Not sure how the other party does it but for my first successful run with my caster, my party kill the first 2 Shadowfiend first. does anyone know how exactly the Shadowfiend sprawn after killed the first 2? is it like, the longer the fight, the more Shadowfiend sprawn? and where exactly do the Shadowfiends sprawn?

[Junts]

I got exactly the same idea. For 2 non-WF casters, it's better for them to cast firewall in two layers and the one that cast the deeper layer do healing and backup for the other.



Using wand is a very good idea. I found it difficult to use heal scroll as well.


Not sure how the other party does it but for my first successful run with my caster, my party kill the first 2 Shadowfiend first. does anyone know how exactly the Shadowfiend sprawn after killed the first 2? is it like, the longer the fight, the more Shadowfiend sprawn? and where exactly do the Shadowfiends sprawn?

not firewall; the backup should use a non-damaging fog, so any mob that hits both will aggro to the main kiter unless that person is not living, in whichcase the aggro will go to the fog.


but yes, basically that.


there are portals up the halls that spawn the fiends; killing them is rather unnecessary and very aggravating

[maddmatt70]

You can try sending someone into the halls during the fight to see if there are portals to be killed or something(I suspect this is where the Mistress of Pain optional is found also) but the mobs definitely fit the profile of a mob that is designed to be kited(massive no-save aoe damage on touch, slower than haste, multiple spawn times to add difficulty as the fight progresses.)

Hmm, the learning curve for new kiters takes awhile. I do not disagree with your analysis regarding massive no save aoe damage I just feel that the way the quest is set up kiting is not really the answer either. Kiting is sure not casual player or pug friendly. My guess is there is a better more controlled method.

[moops]

How would a hasted barbarian, rogue, or monk make all the fiends want to follow them though? How could they get aggro without becoming a grease spot? It would be interesting, maybe manyshot I could see working.


We use Monks quite successfully as our guild is very thin on casters, and we are about to start using Favored Souls as we now have one with Wings. I talked to an FVS tonight that does it succcessfully everytime. The Monks seem to have an easier time of it than the casters. Other people on Sarlona use rangers but it didn't work as well for us and we like to kill the dude as fast as possible to Ranger DPS on Named is pretty nice and they dont take any damage.

[maddmatt70]

We use Monks quite successfully as our guild is thin on casters, and we are about to start using Favored Souls as we now have one with Wings. I talked to one tonight that does it succcessfully everytime.

Again experienced kiter vs. inexperienced there is a big difference. I want to eliminate the need for experienced kiters..

[Junts]

Hmm, the learning curve for new kiters takes awhile. I do not disagree with your analysis regarding massive no save aoe damage I just feel that the way the quest is set up kiting is not really the answer either. Kiting is sure not casual player or pug friendly. My guess is there is a better more controlled method.

I disagree, while there's simply a bad luck potential quotient on the kiting, only some of it is controllable and most people I've seen try it have been able to do it successfully in 1-2 attempts after 1-2 times watching. There's simply a fair cahnce that a kiter is killed and a backup has to take over, one that I suspect will remain present for some time.

The key rather is for people to learn how to backup effectively, particularly in positioning themselves both to be in range to throw up a spell to catch the mobs and to avoid the dps lag at the top of the stairs.

[moops]

Again experienced kiter vs. inexperienced there is a big difference. I want to eliminate the need for experienced kiters..

Its the abundant step though, they can escape anything--and really, I think by lvl 17 people know the basics of kiting, or at least I hope:) Just have to tell them where the first shadows come out if they have never done it b4.

[ddoer]

I disagree, while there's simply a bad luck potential quotient on the kiting, only some of it is controllable

I believe a large part is controllable. The shadowfiend do not aggro randomly. and deal relatively fixed amount of damage that could be reduced with correct gear. The shadowfiend run as fast as you do that mean you just have to keep running without any delay. (and by doing so you are very likely to be safe)

the random part is you have to avoid run toward a newly sprawn Shadowfiend which may approach you from any direction.


Its the abundant step though, they can escape anything--and really, I think by lvl 17 people know the basics of kiting, or at least I hope:) Just have to tell them where the first shadows come out if they have never done it b4.

imho, knowing the basics of kiting is not enough for this kiting exercise that is probably the most challenging one ever exist. Not every mob you kite will deal a 83 cold damage that always break your concentration, and not every mob run as fast as you do when you are with haste (indeed, I don't know any mob run as fast as Shadowfiend at all).

for non-WF sorc, i suppose most of us use heal scroll, but in this quest, using heal scroll will get you killed. By getting somebody else to heal (and cold protection) you, it solves the healing problem.

[Shade]

for non-WF sorc, i suppose most of us use heal scroll, but in this quest, using heal scroll will get you killed. By getting somebody else to heal (and cold protection) you, it solves the healing problem.

Actually not getting hit solves it better.

Done this sucessfuly with zero hits 3 times in a row now. There are no random elements in this, only player error.
Even on my first attempt where I died due to attempting a clicky, the party recovered, rezzed me and we were succesfull.

All the spawns are static, and can be memorized. The AI paterns are simple and preditable. Even without pre-knowledge of the spawn locations, using a good run path that keep you a bit away from the doorways can ensure zero hits.

It seems hard at first, but once you understand the ai and spawn paterns it becomes fairly trivial.

[ddoer]

whoever plan to craft a Shroud cold absorption item for this raid, notice that the absorption percentages are 10%, 15%, and 20% for the three tiers respectively. The number in the perfectweb.org crafting planner is not correct.

I wonder if anyone know the cold damage amount of the Shadowfiend on hard and elite?

[Junts]

whoever plan to craft a Shroud cold absorption item for this raid, notice that the absorption percentages are 10%, 15%, and 20% for the three tiers respectively. The number in the perfectweb.org crafting planner is not correct.

I wonder if anyone know the cold damage amount of the Shadowfiend on hard and elite?

it doesnt actually scale that much, but you will have to memorize new patterns due to nythiros taking longer

honestly, if you can handle pt 1 easily,. there's no reason not to run the raid on hard; there's very little difference between normal and hard, and the added trophies are worth it

elite is a major test for your tanks though, and takes so much longer that its not worth it without a lot of booted folks

pt 1 is the hardest part of an elite run, due to the traps and being blown into them

[maddmatt70]

it doesnt actually scale that much, but you will have to memorize new patterns due to nythiros taking longer

honestly, if you can handle pt 1 easily,. there's no reason not to run the raid on hard; there's very little difference between normal and hard, and the added trophies are worth it

elite is a major test for your tanks though, and takes so much longer that its not worth it without a lot of booted folks

pt 1 is the hardest part of an elite run, due to the traps and being blown into them

I just wanted to say that I disagree with your assessment. What scales is the bosses hit points on hard on all the parts. This scaling does not make a huge difference on the jailor, judge, and only a little difference on part 2, but its part 3 where it makes a difference. The clerics, casters, and bards all have to use more resources on hard in part 3. We ran 3 hard and 2 normal runs last night. On each run we had 2 melee with the boots. It was obvious on the hard runs the healers on the main tank had to use more resources. Really it should go like this on normal 2 tanks with the boots, on hard 3 tanks with the boots, and on elite 4 tanks with the boots. On elite in addition you also need a solid kiter on part 2 and good healers throughout.

[ddoer]

check list
I got a check list for running part 2 as follows:

make myself light in loading, e.g. use bull strength, my experiment shows a around 3% improvement in movement speed from medium to light load
boost to the max HP, e.g. rage, con stats pots etc.
cold resist, cold protection, and fire shield in the last moment, equip any cold absorption item. make sure the item is in off-hand.
enable any of all maximize, empower, extend, quicken
ensure you have maximize jump, concentration (if ur stats matter and ... ), no feather fall
haste


besides:

i always communicate with the backup kiter to ensure he knows how to do if I get killed.
if your cleric has the "you will not die" power/spell (i.e. Cleric Divine Intervention), they probably will give it to you anyway. Ask your level 20 cleric for it. This spell make a huge difference in emergency
in my first 2 runs, i usually ask the bard for improve competence to boost my concentration. It's not a must and I don't bother to do it now. if you are not a WF and/or don't have quicken, this might help.


When running
i always drop an extended, well-positioned fw on the stair.

If you get hit
i think it is still arguable if you should heal yourself immediately. I think:

for WF casters, with quicken, it's ok to self reconstruct and/or cast cold prot anytime when you are able to make a jump (notice that I have never used WF caster in ToD so it is all educated guess)
for non-WF casters, it's better to jump-cast cold protection asap, but not try to self-heal.


basically, if you haste and move forward without doing anything, you are safe. so there is no immediate need to heal. Then, keep running and there will be a timing that the Shadowfiend no longer chasing you, and then use jump-heal at that time if no 2nd caster or bard or cleric could help you. from the video made by Spyderwolf (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2461587&posted=1#post2461587), he has time to turn around and nothing is chasing him.

afaik, the weaker your party's dps, the longer is the fight and the more shadowfiend.

[ddoer]

some changes are introduced in the latest update


firewall may not be able to secure aggro. A shadowfiend may choose to aggro on someone near it. i think it is a global change to the aggro system of all mobs
the shadowfiend seems to deal less cold damage. in my last run on normal, i got the following damages: 29,24,45,48,46,59,23,35 (with cold resistance and 45% cold absorption)


it doesn't require any change to the kiting strategy, however.

[Sanadil]

It does change your strat if you use intim. Intim is nigh useless in there now, in both part I & II. Firewall & Solid fog combo is a near a no go for aggro shift on the kiter. Its pretty much a **** shoot at this point, maybe you'll get lucky and the aggro will go to the caster..but then again, maybe it won't. Change placements on the intial start up, don't use the base of the stairs anymore, get whatever persistant AOE damage you'll be attempting, up on the right and left side of the alter...

I'm close to saying this raid is pretty much broken. It can be done, but not anywhere near as fun as it used to be...

[Zodh]

firewall may not be able to secure aggro
Confirmed.
Today I was unable to draw aggro of a second Shadow.
Ignoring FW and CK, he was trying to hang out with his big red friend and the rest of the playas.
Ranger had to shoot couple arrows up his butt to pull outta the party.

[Arlith]

firewall may not be able to secure aggro. A shadowfiend may choose to aggro on someone near it. i think it is a global change to the aggro system of all mobs

Make sure your firewalls are right at the bottom of the stairs. Any gap and they can squeeze by. If there is no gap it doesn't matter who they aggro on, they will change their mind when they hit the firewall.

One caveat to that. You do not want to be too far away from them when they hit the firewall. The first time I was kiting I was across the room by the time they hit the firewall, and they walked right through it and up the stairs.

I place one fw at the foot of and one to each side of the stairs to start. After that, scattered fw's througout the room and one at the stairs each time around.

Jump spell is your friend. Jump/featherfal/hastel and you can cast/heal yourself without getting into trouble. Just give your self some room to run between jumps. I do this reliably without quicken (I just don't see the reason for it on my sorc).

HP's are also your friend. I have seen threads stating that toughness feats/enhancements for casters are useless. I say bah. I enjoy all 406 of my halfling sorcs hit points and plan to add more in the future.