Virtuoso Bard Advice

[unclejo]

I'm going to be trio-ing the game with my friends (Fighter/Cleric) and I'm really interested in rolling a Bard to accompany them. reason I'm looking at Virtuoso is that I can use my CC to help us take on things that otherwise we wouldnt be able to handle three man. Also they sound pretty cool!

What I really need is a decent build for a beginner Virtuoso Bard. I will be playing a Human.

[Vormaerin]

To be perfectly honest, my advice is to not pick Virtuoso. You will be far better off with Spellsinger for what you want. The extra spell points and other stuff will pay off a lot more. The only really good thing about Virtuoso is you can get the "Fascinate Undead" and "Fascinate Constructs" abilities a few levels earlier. And that's just not enough.

If you want to do CC, the most important thing is to get your Charisma as high as possible because that is what determines how hard it is for the bad guys to resist your spells. Beyond that, try to get a decent Constitution for hp. If you plan on fighting in melee a lot, split the rest of your stat points between Strength and Dex. If you figure on sniping from the back while casting spells, you can go with just Dex.

[unclejo]

Can you give me some pointers towards skills, feats and enhancements in that case?

[Vormaerin]

Sure.

Skills: Perform and Use Magic Device are your most important skills. Always keep those as max. After that, its pretty much whatever you like. Concentration is good if you are worried about casting while being attacked. Jump and Balance are good for general gameplay purposes.

Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment and Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment are good for making your CC spells more effective. Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness are good for getting more spell points, which you can always use more of as a bard. Extend Spell is extremely valuable for keeping your buffs running. Toughness is a good way to build up some HP if you are in melee a lot. Other choices depend on what you do most of the time.. stuff to help fight if you meleeing a lot or help cast if you are mostly doing that..

Enhancements: Absolutely ALWAYS 100% of the time take every song bonus skill you have. Lingering Song, Attack Song, Damage Song, Extra Song, you name it. This is your biggest and best contribution to the group. Song Magic, Energy of Music, and Extra Charisma are always good. Lyric of Song and Lyric of Incredible Song are okay. Check the Spellsinger prerequisites and make sure you get all of them (it includes some you otherwise don't need like Concentration II). If you took Toughness, pick up a little bit of the toughness enhancements.

[Hendrik]

To be perfectly honest, my advice is to not pick Virtuoso. You will be far better off with Spellsinger for what you want. The extra spell points and other stuff will pay off a lot more. The only really good thing about Virtuoso is you can get the "Fascinate Undead" and "Fascinate Constructs" abilities a few levels earlier. And that's just not enough.

If you want to do CC, the most important thing is to get your Charisma as high as possible because that is what determines how hard it is for the bad guys to resist your spells. Beyond that, try to get a decent Constitution for hp. If you plan on fighting in melee a lot, split the rest of your stat points between Strength and Dex. If you figure on sniping from the back while casting spells, you can go with just Dex.

Enthrall?!?

Forgot to mention that Spellslinger unique song is a DC improvement to Casters and what, slight reduction is SP costs?

Virtuoso unique song is Enthrall. Beefed up version of Fascinate that has a chance to break on damage and the song effects linger after the are awaken.

Warchanter song, I can't remember - been a Virt for so long...

:o

[Vormaerin]

Yes, it has Enthrall. Its not going to be that much more useful than Fascinate in most situations. With a small group of people used to working together, Fascinate and gang-ganking one mob at a time will be every bit as effective as Enthrall. And with a pug or zerging group, no one is going to wait to let you Enthrall anyway.

If his fighter is a 2 handed weapon user, Enthrall might have some value in keeping guys Fascinated through glancing blows. But otherwise? No way it compares to 100 SP and the Spellsinger song.

Spellsingers get 100 SP (very nice), +2 Concentration and Use Magic Device (both good skills), Special Song (useful, but short duration).

Virtuoso gets +2 to Listen, Diplomacy, Perform (only Diplomacy is of much use), +3 Uses of Bardic Song (nice a low levels, overkill in the long run), and 10% longer songs (again, nice at first), and Enthrall (discussed above).

What really kills Virtuoso though is you have to waste a feat on Skill Focus: Perform or Negotiator if you want to get it at lvl 6 instead of lvl 10. The necessary Feat for Spellsinger is something useful....

I didn't recommend Warchanter because he specifically said he wanted to maximize his crowd control abilities. Virtuoso /should/ be the way to do that, but in practice its Spellsinger by a large margin.

[unclejo]

I bashed this out in character planner, any thoughts?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Erynn
Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Bard)
Hit Points: 222
Spell Points: 1098
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 18
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 24

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 23
Bluff 3 7
Concentration 6 29
Diplomacy 3 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 30
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate 3 7
Jump 7 27
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 7 30
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 4
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 7 32

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I


Level 16 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV


Level 19 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

[malaky]

I bashed this out in character planner, any thoughts?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Erynn
Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Bard)
Hit Points: 222
Spell Points: 1098
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 18
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 24

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 23
Bluff 3 7
Concentration 6 29
Diplomacy 3 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 30
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate 3 7
Jump 7 27
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 7 30
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 4
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 7 32

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I


Level 16 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV


Level 19 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III




There is almost never a reason to have 16 str and 16 cha on the same character. In the long run, you're going to have to pick: CC or melee. (You can have song CC as a melee bard, but for spell CC you need max CHA). So you either want to max out charisma, or go warchanter. Since you said you want to focus on CC, I'd recommend 18 cha and lowering str.

[Vormaerin]

It definitely looks like a good plan. You'll have a solid feel for how your group is working out by lvl 8-10, so you can make adjustments as necessary. Gear will obviously make a big difference also. Feats and Enhancements can be changed later, so you aren't stuck with any decision (though changing them can be expensive).

Bards who fight are very buff oriented, so make sure you take full advantage of Blur, Displacement, Haste, Good Hope/Greater Heroism, your songs, and everything else. Glitterdust, Hypnotism, and Otto's Sphere of Dancing are all amazing spells for Crowd Control. Glitterdust and Otto's Sphere are slow casting, though , so use them at the start of the fight (better yet, just before the fight).

Oh, minor point: Weapon Focus: Slashing. Bards don't have jack for slashing weapons of any value. You are going to be using a rapier and you are going to like it. Heh. So that would be Piercing. Anyway, that's a long ways away and you'll be pretty confident in what you are doing by then.

[Vormaerin]

There is almost never a reason to have 16 str and 16 cha on the same character. In the long run, you're going to have to pick: CC or melee. (You can have song CC as a melee bard, but for spell CC you need max CHA). So you either want to max out charisma, or go warchanter. Since you said you want to focus on CC, I'd recommend 18 cha and lowering str.

Well, that's true if the guy is going to be operating in an endgame party. But he's looking at a third person in a dedicated trio. He's not going to have the luxury of doing just one thing to the ultimate. He's going to have to melee often, especially in undead quests where his kind of CC isn't going to matter much. Though I suppose he could take over as main healer on those quests and let the cleric unload with offensive spells... Still, I think dropping Strength to 12 will hurt him a lot more than losing one pt of DC.