Drop the grazing blow system

[redoubt]

I was out in the devil battleground and we were trying to do some testing about it. It seems wildly erratic. I'll go back out again, of course, and see if we can figure anything conclusive out, but it seems buggy so far.

That, and it is a royal kick in the junk to anyone who has good AC and/or high to-hit.

[Borror0]

So, why do you want you to remove grazing hits?

[moops]

From my POV clercing, and also playing a high AC battle Intimidating CLeric, grazing hits doesn't seem bad at all--however I primarily heal with mass heals so I'm still doing the same healing I did b4. I don't even have mass heal loaded on my pure cleric.

[redoubt]

So, why do you want you to remove grazing hits?

Because I should not hit mobs on any 10. I should hit mobs when I exceed their AC and/or on a 20.

Mobs should not hit me on any 13. They should hit me when they exceed my AC and/or on a 20.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much. Many of the changes that Turbine is making lately push us all into a playstyle of high HP and high DPS and I am against the pigeon holing that is taking place currently. The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters. To this point, I've actually changed my new character from being a high-AC dex based FvS to being a STR based FvS with little emphasis on AC. What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???

Oh yeah, the last guy who gave me positive rep was only worth 3 points, so I hope you don't slap me again for having a different opinion than yours or I'll prolly be negative.

[DSC]

Grazing Hits are not the best solution, IMHO, but they are an attempt to address a real problem: that the scale of DDO no longer reasonably fits into a d20. In fact, in certain situations Grazing Hits adds more character options.

How so? Because under the old system, high end monsters had to have their AB jacked up through the roof to present at least some threat to super-AC characters. This meant that everyone with a medium AC might as well have been in robes with 8 DEX.

Now, it's a little more practical for the Devs to give monsters a middling AB (such that middling AC can actually matter sometimes) without making the high AC characters completely immune to harm.


Again, I don't actually feel it's the best of all possible solutions, but it is there to try to solve a real problem, and I haven't yet seen convincing evidence that Grazing Hits are crippling anybody.

[Borror0]

Because I should not hit mobs on any 10.
Good, because that does not happen. Instead, you graze them on a 10 and it's far weaker than a normal hit.

Now, you can say "This is not like in D&D" and that is true. However, the medium that is video games poses new problems and one of them is the frustration that constantly missing can lead to. Another is how much harder it is to balance adventures compared to a PnP game. If you have better solutions to address the first problem, I think Eladrin would like to hear them.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much.Why? How so?

Does it makes poor build decision less painful? Slightly but that's barely noticeable. If you come to rely on grazing hits to hit, your build already suck unless we're talking about very low level characters attempting Elite, overlevel content where missing is far more frequent.

As a matter of fact, it does the opposite: it complicates the gaming rules by adding something new to learn about and deal with.

The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters.Uh, no. It's not.

As a matter of fact, Eladrin even gave examples of how it should help to increase the diversity:


• Higher AC monsters are able to be created (to allow high to-hit characters like a Kensai shine) while avoiding many of the "Skeleton Knights in the Catacombs" or "Drow Blackguard in Tempest's Spine" problems.
• Extremely high AC does not grant essentially complete immunity to monsters, though it still provides a substantial advantage (base weapon damage / 2, with no bonuses). This is a much gentler way of addressing some AC issues that DDO has than many other proposals.
• Damage Reduction becomes more useful, as you are likely to be taking small amounts of damage more often.
• Shields may gain additional attractiveness.


What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???
They don't hit you on 1, from 2-12, hit you for reduced damage from 13 to 19 and hit you only on a 20.

[redoubt]

They don't hit you on 1, from 2-12, hit you for reduced damage from 13 to 19 and hit you only on a 20.

If you have high dps and high hp this is fine. However, that is the exact character bias I am complaining about. Low (300-350hp) high AC (>65) characters are massive penalized by this. Unless you always have a dedicated cleric running mass cures.

My guild runs >50% without any healer. Damage avoidance is the forte. With this change, damage avoidance is incredible difficult. Very few AC builds have access to DR. (Pure monk is the only one I can think of.)

My ranger/rogue, for example, has self buffed AC in the low 60s and right at 300 hp. I could, with a combination of buffs, self healing and careful play, out survive and outdamage many "dps builds" because I could stay in the fight longer (the dps guys would have to back out for taking too much damage.) With the low-ish hp that doesn't work any longer. Getting hit that often (even for a small amount) in combination with the regular hits from the mobs is too much. So, I suppose I'm just spouting sour apples, but I'm looking at a serious problem with my oldest character. Can ya blame me for not liking the system?

Even my monk, running low 70s AC in the devil area would get a constant stream of grazing hits. Seriously, it was a steady vertical column of red.

So maybe you're right and it just needs tweaking, but I am not yet convinced that this is game changing (if not game breaking.)
1. Running without a dedicated healer is not much more difficult.
2. Running evasive characters with low hp and good play is now much more difficult
3. Running a high DPS/high HP character is the defacto play, AGAIN! (And this is bad.)

[Aspenor]

Uh, grazing hits only occur on 19s on normal, 15+ on hard, and 10+ on elite. maybe just run the quest on normal when you don't have a dedicated healer....you're choosing to make it difficult for yourself. You don't have to run on higher difficulty levels, you're choosing to do so.

Elite is intended to be difficult for a well-balanced, geared party.

[sephiroth1084]

If you have high dps and high hp this is fine. However, that is the exact character bias I am complaining about. Low (300-350hp) high AC (>65) characters are massive penalized by this. Unless you always have a dedicated cleric running mass cures.

My guild runs >50% without any healer. Damage avoidance is the forte. With this change, damage avoidance is incredible difficult. Very few AC builds have access to DR. (Pure monk is the only one I can think of.)

My ranger/rogue, for example, has self buffed AC in the low 60s and right at 300 hp. I could, with a combination of buffs, self healing and careful play, out survive and outdamage many "dps builds" because I could stay in the fight longer (the dps guys would have to back out for taking too much damage.) With the low-ish hp that doesn't work any longer. Getting hit that often (even for a small amount) in combination with the regular hits from the mobs is too much. So, I suppose I'm just spouting sour apples, but I'm looking at a serious problem with my oldest character. Can ya blame me for not liking the system?

Even my monk, running low 70s AC in the devil area would get a constant stream of grazing hits. Seriously, it was a steady vertical column of red.

So maybe you're right and it just needs tweaking, but I am not yet convinced that this is game changing (if not game breaking.)
1. Running without a dedicated healer is not much more difficult.
2. Running evasive characters with low hp and good play is now much more difficult
3. Running a high DPS/high HP character is the defacto play, AGAIN! (And this is bad.)

Both times that I've run Genesis Point on normal on my tank, I've gone up to fiddle with the valves to free the prisoners and open the maze by myself, and have dealt with those respawning orthons for up to around 15 minutes solo. In that time, the only threat they posed was when I got cocky and ditched my shield and +4 insight for a 2-hander for a little while.

So, high AC obviously still works properly on normal. Hard and elite would be a different story.

[Borror0]

Low (300-350hp) high AC (>65) characters are massive penalized by this. Unless you always have a dedicated cleric running mass cures.
If one has low Armor Class, then he won't get grazed at all.

Very few AC builds have access to DR. (Pure monk is the only one I can think of.)
Paladins have Angel Skin. Fighters have Stalwart Defender. WF have adamantine DR.

There, you've got all high three AC class and one race that can fetch DR in a way or another.

I suppose I'm just spouting sour apples, but I'm looking at a serious problem with my oldest character.
Why do you think I have been pushing for respec so much?

Otherwise, needed change will invalidate characters that once were at less viable if not optimal.

Even my monk, running low 70s AC in the devil area would get a constant stream of grazing hits. Seriously, it was a steady vertical column of red.
I don't see that as a problem. was is it unbalancing? Was it not fun? Was it too hard too hard for an appropriately geared and skilled party?

Those are problems, but not what you describe.

1. Running without a dedicated healer is not much more difficult.
Well, ya, because high AC was basically God mode. The reason it was not overpowered was that it was slower than high DPS.

Though, you should forward that complaint to whoever pushed for dungeon scaling that the class balance is out of whack if you don't have a dedicated healer. Well, not only if you're short of a dedicated healer. It's also horrible if you're trying to solo as a rogue... among many things.

3. Running a high DPS/high HP character is the defacto play, AGAIN! (And this is bad.)
Well, ya, and the only way to change that is to make the monsters hit harder but it can be done without some changes.

Even when "AC was king", pre-Module 4, it was still DPS that was "king". When people said that "AC is king" they rather meant "DPS is king, but we need AC otherwise we're not going to complete the quest because the mobs hit too hard." People will always seek the highest DPS possible because, the highest the DPS; the lower the completion time is and the more XP or loot one gains per hour.

However, if you make monsters hit hard enough to make high DPS/high HP want to have an intimitank in their group, you'll end up making fights trivial or too unforgiving for the non-intimitank and too random. Well, if you stick with unaltered D&D rules. If you avoid 95% of all hits, you have a time to failure that is nineteen times lower than someone who avoids them 5% of the time. Think about the amount of damage needed to make being hit 95% of the time feel dangerous.

You'd end up giving healers coronaries and killing non-AC characters in a split second.

If you want to see AC characters see some play, something alike grazing hits is needed anyhow.

[Missing_Minds]

Uh, grazing hits only occur on 19s on normal, 15+ on hard, and 10+ on elite. maybe just run the quest on normal when you don't have a dedicated healer....you're choosing to make it difficult for yourself. You don't have to run on higher difficulty levels, you're choosing to do so.

Elite is intended to be difficult for a well-balanced, geared party.

He also didn't state how large his parties were. I'm also suspect he's in a full party, which is causing the scaling system to be screw really making those grazing blows hurt worse than they should.

[Missing_Minds]

Paladins have Angel Skin. Fighters have Stalwart Defender. WF have adamantine DR.

There, you've got all high three AC class and one race that can fetch DR in a way or another.

You forget also the many DR items that exist in the game.

Heck, if we ask nicely. given that ritual of adimantine has 5 stages, maybe we could see about getting that to give DR as well. I mean HP on an item/armor is... well.. mostly redundant save for a few very low HP items any more.

[Strakeln]

Oh yeah, the last guy who gave me positive rep was only worth 3 points, so I hope you don't slap me again for having a different opinion than yours or I'll prolly be negative.
I hit you with ~35 positive rep for a buffer against differing opinions, and also because I don't really like the system either.

[Roman]

Weighted and radiance are your friends on elite runs. I maintain a 72-80 AC and 480hp with 5 DR/- and some elite runs still tear me up. Infact I found Bastion of Power on elite to be such a challenge that my team started using weighted and radiance weapons to help mitigate damage, and it worked great.

High AC no longer means invulnerability. Personally I like it; makes the game more challenging and requires more strategy and team work.

Try weighted, you will love it.

[sephiroth1084]

Weighted and radiance are your friends on elite runs.
Blindness seems to cause some odd interaction with intimidate where blinded monsters won't necessarily react to the taunt. Not an argument against radiance weapons, but something to keep in mind.

[karudo]

imho i think they need to take a better look at the system and increase whats the roll needed to have a graziing hit do to the system i have stopped running my ac toons who get smacked around now and just went to plain barbs for the standing dr and hp and pray we have atlest a semi-compent healer.

and b4 ne1 says nething i tested it in genisis point and took slightly less dam on my barb with a 16 ac vs my ac build witha 75 ac.

[kingfisher]

Uh, grazing hits only occur on 19s on normal, 15+ on hard, and 10+ on elite. maybe just run the quest on normal when you don't have a dedicated healer....you're choosing to make it difficult for yourself. You don't have to run on higher difficulty levels, you're choosing to do so.

Elite is intended to be difficult for a well-balanced, geared party.

this is how it should be imo, elite is um elite no? if you want a cake walk do norm or hard.

[Shade]

Anyone who thinks this system is that bad has never tested it.

Just ran bastion of power hard with a high ac monk, non lvl20 so no special DR.

He said the grazing hits barely did any dmg at all, and that was the only thing that hit him. Look at this life bar, it did like 1% dmg,.. He could self heal thru them fine almost with just the fist of light.

Everyone in the party died 2+ times, cept the monk as his AC made him nearly invulnerable.

And players wise.. For my low str sorc its pretty nice to be able to always contribute something, even when i need to conserve mana.

[eonfreon]

The only real problem I have with Grazing Hits is the flinch animation I see and the fact that it interrupts actions, from what I've seen.
I haven't played as much as I like and I really am for the most part unaffected by Grazing Hits because I seldom worry about having enough AC that getting hit on more than a 10 is a luxury I usually don't bother with. I just kill fast and out-maneuver my opponents using the game combat system and battle environment to my advantage where I can.

However, there are specific places where I do wish to dash into an area and go "Full AC Mode", hitting a 60 AC with a simple shield and quick on-the-run buffs and CE activation. PArticularly when I did SOS in the Ice Giants part where everyone has to run across the Ice Bridges with the wind gusts.
I have been in PUGS that had great difficulty running those bridges and I would run to the switch and for those 3 seconds I needed to pull that switch a quick 60 AC was great. Flensors, Giants, whatever attcking my Evasion Pally would miss, the switch would turn off the wind gusts, as intended, and folks who just couldn't maneuver could finally get through and fight the Boss together.

I have yet to run any quests and worry about activating/pulling/opening something because I haven't had much time. But what I remember from Beta, Grazing Hits that did as little as 1-7 damage would still prevent me from completing actions.
That should change at the very lest. I accept that I can't open something when being directly hit by a sword or even (sigh) an arrow, but an arrow "grazing" my cheek for 1 point of damage should not wound me enough to stop me.
It's worse for arrow, if I recall. Against melee opponents I can position myself to cut off many of their attack opportunities and thus reduce any incoming hit chance enought o usually activate something.
Against arrows that intersect my Plane and generate attack rolls they can come from many different directions with little way to protect. I don't mind taking damage I just object to "flinching" or "interrupting".
Again, I can accept that I can't activate a rune while being used as a pincushion by direct hits. I can see arrows that are doing real damage, maybe an arrow even goes through my hand, that'd stop me.
But a grazing hit should at best scratch me or "tire" me, wear me down as the impact of arrows bruise me even through my armor and padding.
Unless they actually penetrate through armor and cloth and really dig into my ribs, I don't see how an arrow that's "grazing" my hand would not allow me to twist a rune or a door knob.

That's my major gripe. I generally don't bother running around with an AC higher than 46-50 so Grazing Hits only bother me in that I keep hearing the complaints of those that worked so hard to achieve constant high AC at the expense of other areas. I made my toos to switch between dps and AC and have a high AC even in AC mode if I need (requires the obligatory switching of items and UMDing Shield wands etc).
So I feel sorry for those that can't change. Made a lot of time commitment for one type of gameplay then were "weakened' by a game change.

Personally I just want the interruption taking out of Grazing Hits. If they've already done that then Bravo, if not, please do something Turbine, it is far too annoying.

[Missing_Minds]

The only real problem I have with Grazing Hits is the flinch animation I see and the fact that it interrupts actions, from what I've seen.

I've noticed this myself. As a player I don't know if we should flinch because our casters have concentration checks. Mobs do not.

I have flinched many a time from a grazing blow of... zero. Huh??? So I think the flinching checks is a bit borked. I intend to bug report this.

[Riggs]

Because I should not hit mobs on any 10. I should hit mobs when I exceed their AC and/or on a 20.

Mobs should not hit me on any 13. They should hit me when they exceed my AC and/or on a 20.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much. Many of the changes that Turbine is making lately push us all into a playstyle of high HP and high DPS and I am against the pigeon holing that is taking place currently. The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters. To this point, I've actually changed my new character from being a high-AC dex based FvS to being a STR based FvS with little emphasis on AC. What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???



Signed. Not that it matters what anything thinks at this point.

Turbine spent a ton of time making a system to fix the massively out of whack AC modifiers they added to the game (icy for one), and under the guide of 'we wont take something away from players because it might make them mad' argument - instead added an ENTIRE SYSTEM that effectively 'takes away' they ac anyway.

And guess what - people are even more mad than if they had of just nurfed some of the over the top AC modifiers, and lowered monster to hit like they should have.

[sephiroth1084]

imho i think they need to take a better look at the system and increase whats the roll needed to have a graziing hit do to the system i have stopped running my ac toons who get smacked around now and just went to plain barbs for the standing dr and hp and pray we have atlest a semi-compent healer.

and b4 ne1 says nething i tested it in genisis point and took slightly less dam on my barb with a 16 ac vs my ac build witha 75 ac.

That's ridiculous. Your AC guy should be getting hit with only grazes, while your no-AC barbarian should be getting torn to shreds by real hits. There is a tremendous difference between the two.

I've run my AC tank through all of the new quests (haven't beaten Tower yet), and excepting the crazy shadow things in the raid, which we have yet to conquer, I have taken much MUCH less damage than the low AC fighters, barbarians, rangers and rogues I've run with.

Are you simply comparing grazing hit damage, or are you comparing actual incoming damage? Are you ignoring the healing that the cleric stapled to your barbarian's ass is handing out?

[Riggs]

Anyone who thinks this system is that bad has never tested it.

Just ran bastion of power hard with a high ac monk, non lvl20 so no special DR.

He said the grazing hits barely did any dmg at all, and that was the only thing that hit him. Look at this life bar, it did like 1% dmg,.. He could self heal thru them fine almost with just the fist of light.

Everyone in the party died 2+ times, cept the monk as his AC made him nearly invulnerable.

And players wise.. For my low str sorc its pretty nice to be able to always contribute something, even when i need to conserve mana.

Fists of light is the only thing keeping my monk alive in the new content. Even with a higher ac, everything hits for a steady stream of low level damage, with bumps of big damage. And bearded devils can hit like a 70+ ac regularly it seems, so nearly any ac is useless on them inside quests.

You cant design a entire combat system that hammers players, and then say 'well this one class gets an enhancement that helps them out...and say it is balanced...

[Aspenor]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

[redoubt]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

19 solo
17 norm
15 hard
13 elite

Unless it changed again...

Also, I'm noticing wierd interactions. One on one my new FvS almost never gets hit at all, then when there are 5 or 6 of them I get a steady stream of grazing hits (even on hard.)

[Aspenor]

19 solo
17 norm
15 hard
13 elite


So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

[redoubt]

So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

Actually I qouted the numbers because you posted them incorrectly earlier in this thread. Then you said:

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

I found it odd, that you would assume I don't have a right to be in an elite quest when you don't know the numbers we are actually talking about, but, at the time I was trying to be civil and not directly point out your error as I generally consider you to be a benifit to the forum community.

Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones you typed in.

My problem with the system is, as I stated before: I should hit when I roll a hit and the mobs should hit when they roll a hit. Add to this, my conspiracty theory that this was also tied to the DA system and that without the grazing hits the mobs would not stop high AC chacters as they could not hit them without this piece of code. Then again, I'm not sure why a high level ranger could not dance through "stealthy repossession" while laughing all the way at the puny little mobs chasing him (but apparantly turbine does not want that to be possible.)

Finally, I've seen the issue of one on one versus one on several both on my monk in the devil playground and on my FvS in the harbor and korthos. I don't know how or why, its just something I've noticed and since I don't know how to tell which are hits and which are grazing when I go back to the combat log, its hard for me to give detailed data. To be honest, I'm not sure it even happens all the time.

One instance was with the dogs in the lobster quest where you break the gaming tables. The humans would only occasionally hit me at all, but the dogs left a constant stream of -0 to -5ish the whole time I was fighting them. I believe it was 4 of them and one of me. Happened both on normal and on elite.

[Riggs]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

Because yeah, balance = what worked for 16 levels suddenly stops working at 1-2 level higher.

Players that have been complaining have been running this game since day 1 usually, and have already been doing quests on elite on builds that worked for 2-3 years.

Some builds can handle it without an issue, many that were 'fine' 2 weeks ago suddenly are getting hammered.

Thats not balance, thats Turbine forcing anyone that didnt fit into their preset ideas about 'only these couple things will work any everyone else reroll'.

But hey instead of looting 1,000,000 shards now you can respec a feat for Turbine points....very 'lucky' eh?

[Riggs]

So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.

Turbine basically said "We put way too many ac mods into the game, and dont have the guts to nurf some, so instead were going to nurf the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM and pretend that wont make anyone mad also".

Defend away tho.

[Borror0]

I found it odd, that you would assume I don't have a right to be in an elite quest
Why is that? For anyone that has a iota of DDO experience, it's an obvious truth that new Elite content is going to be atrociously hard (or expansive) for the first few weeks for all players and that AC builds are going to suffer a world of pain until they acquire the new gear to survive in there.

Look no further than Hard Shroud for an example of that theory in play (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=140656).

Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones you typed in.
Incorrect. The numbers in the release notes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official#Grazing_Hits) are more favorable to the players than the ones he typed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2397937#post2397937).

If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes.

My problem with the system is, as I stated before: I should hit when I roll a hit and the mobs should hit when they roll a hit.
Good, if that is your problem that is a fine conscren, but don't try to make it look like it's another issue.

If that is our problem, find an alternative to the dissatisfaction caused by missing too much because the developers already knew it was a deviation from PnP.

Add to this, my conspiracty theory that this was also tied to the DA system and that without the grazing hits the mobs would not stop high AC chacters as they could not hit them without this piece of code.
Let me rebuke the conspiracy quickly: You don't need to be hit to be affected by DA.

I don't know how to tell which are hits and which are grazing
UI settings. Use them. You can change the color if you want to.

[Borror0]

[...] and have already been doing quests on elite on builds that worked for 2-3 years.
Two or three years ago? That's a long time! If I remember right:

Three years ago, splashing 1 paladin for wand usage and +2 AC from Aura of Good was a good idea.
Two or three years ago, 10 base Con was a lot of Con and sensually a waste of creation point.
Three years ago, Toughness was an horrible feat!
Two or three years ago, rangers were a unpopular class that has trouble finding groups.
Three years ago, S&B was arguably the best fighting style there was.
Two years ago, spellcasters were horribly overpowered!
Three years ago, spellcasters were horribly underpowered!
Two or three years ago, WFs and halfling were a joke races that very few actually played.
Three years ago, rogues were used mostly as good trapmonkeys.


Do I need to continue?

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.
Oh no, a player is suffering issues outside of expected and normal gameplay! The atrocity!

[redoubt]

Incorrect. The numbers in the release notes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official#Grazing_Hits) are more favorable to the players than the ones he typed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2397937#post2397937).

If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes.


I'm actually lost now.

Players must roll a 10 on any level to "graze" a mob. If it was otherwise a hit it still hits. As far as I know this has always been set at 10. A friend of mine was running a WF sorc with 8 str and using a tower shield and hitting things with a club in Garisons missing pack on elite. That is a level 4 elite and she was level 3. Her point is that she should only hit on a 20, but since they added grazing she is swinging anyway because the to-hit score doesn't matter.

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage??? Thats total horse @@@@ and you know it. When was the last time a character you made had trouble landing hits? I don't consider myself uber, but I don't have trouble hitting. My characters do not gain from the grazing system because they are scoring hits anyway.

How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was? All this system does is give the mobs a better chance to do damage to players and nerf AC builds. All the while the devs dress it up as helping the players.

I'm not a pnp player. I've argued with people who say the game must be more like pnp. Me? I just want them to stop dorking up the game. I can see how the d20 is iconic and changing it would be tramatic, but if the bonuses have exceeded the capacity of a d20, then maybe we should talk about changing to a dxx that covers a more acceptable range. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the grazing is pretty hacked in this one person's opinion.

[Lewcipher]

If one has low Armor Class, then he won't get grazed at all.


Sorry to quote this from earlier Borror0, but he stated Low HP, High AC characters.

[eonfreon]

Oh no, a player is suffering issues outside of expected and normal gameplay! The atrocity!

Well, it's certainly not an atrocity, but it does suck. And is my major issue with the new system. Which isn't to say others don't have even better reasons, because once again things have changed beyond anything.

Yes, I know, I'm sure it's not intended and will be fixed soon? But once again it's something that we asked constantly about in Beta, I wanted a simple answer then and I'd love a simple answer now, did they really intend for 0 dmg to interrupt or wa that just an unintended mistake which we;ll just deal with as always.

But since it does annoy me, I'll keep bug reporting and mentioning it until I at least hear that it's supposed to be this way. No big deal. But you will not convince me that I should be fine with this because it helps out with a larger issue. Especially when the issue is Turbine dealing with it's own mess, basically.

Yes, Grazing Hits is fine conceptually. Fine, I'll have to deal with the bugs of yet another system devised to deal with an error of game design that is shortsighted and not even as remotely balanced as some wish to paint it. yes, I'm very happy that someone mentioned that their Sorc can now "contribute" (in the most self-delusional way possible) some Grazing Hits dmg when they're saving Mana (thanks Sorc that 2 dmg 50% of the time's really helping out a whole bunch,keep plinging away, maybe you'll do that last 2 dmg needed to get the "kill shot" ;)- thanks for the half a percent of a fraction of a bit of dmg).

AS far as the extra damage goes, I'm not getting much because I KNOW the value of AC even before this mess. So I have the most I need, a 35 AC. If I'm not careful I might go up as high as 48.

Yes I have a 60 AC mode, but so what? I learned long time ago: dps and to heck with AC. I could at least figure out ways to work in the S&B 55+ Standing AC mooks before, cause even if they screwed up really bad and had 300-350 hp by 16th lvl, they at least could deflect damage, not absorb it, but deflect it.

Grazing hits needs tweaking still. And the little things do matter. Especially when I'm inconvenienced so that Turbine can create a challenge for players who pointed out their own design flaws. So yes, until they get rid of the "flinch" and "interrupt" aspect of it I will say that it is a stupid addition to the game. Yep, not even worried about the extra damage since the few times I need AC and DR I can get it and I know that Grazing Hits only really pile up when you allow yourself to be surrounded and overwhelmed (which seems about right to me).

But for the love of everything Unholy, let me open a freaking door or pull a switch if I take 1 or 2 points of GRAZING dmg!!!

[Borror0]

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage???
No, that is not what I meant.

What I said is "If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes." Following basic English rules, "being grazed" refers to the action (to graze) being inflicted upon a target. In this case, the target being players. Keeping that in mind, I mentioned two numbers: 10 and 13. For anyone following the conversation, or simply looking at the context, the first one was referring to the number Aspenor thought was correct one (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official#Grazing_Hits) (10) and the second one the number that is found in the release notes (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2397937#post2397937) (13).

Thus, your affirmation that "Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones [Aspenor] typed in." is false because it is more favorable to the players to be grazed on 13+ than it would have been to be grazed on a 10+ as the player takes more damage if he can be gazed on a 10+ than if he can be grazed on a 13+.

To be sure, let me restate it again: the numbers refer to which roll Elite mobs have to roll to graze us.


How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was? All this system does is give the mobs a better chance to do damage to players and nerf AC builds. All the while the devs dress it up as helping the players.
An interesting quote in that paragraph is "We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew!" because it's true. We don't.

Considering that fact, why did the developers presented grazing hits as something that would help the player.

Just like you, my melee characters no problem hitting! At high level, it's not much of a problem I don't buy this "As noted in the Lammania release notes, there is a “grazing hits” system going in as part of the combat changes made to address common issues raised by new players while simultaneously keeping the veteran players appropriately challenged. The Grazing Hits rule is a new system that is intended to reduce dissatisfaction at lower levels caused by large percentages of missed attacks, a problem frequently mentioned by new players." nonsense! My characters have absolutely no problem hitting since Korthos. As a matter of fact, Korthos lowered the to-hit so low that I don't think even a TWF sorcerer would miss.


In the Korthos experience, monster AC’s were artificially lowered to address this problem, but we found that this simply moved the problem to later on in the harbor and marketplace dungeons.
So, it was to help the low level characters and that their first attempt (lowering AC) only pushed the complaint until later.

Fine. Still, it affects end game. I wonder why they don't realize that?


"Why are you doing this?"
Expected effects of this include:
• Higher AC monsters are able to be created (to allow high to-hit characters like a Kensai shine) while avoiding many of the "Skeleton Knights in the Catacombs" or "Drow Blackguard in Tempest's Spine" problems
It's not to help us but to provide us with a more deeper gameplay experience.

It seems as if Eladrin thinks that to-hit should matter, and be used as a way to differentiate builds instead of letting us all hit on a 2. That is, Eladrin wants to consider one more factor when playing, to-hit. However, he seems to think that players dislike high AC character for the same reason low level players dislike missing too much.

Ok, I can buy that.

So, what about you? Do their reasoning make more sense now?

I just want them to stop dorking up the game.
Support that claim.

Yes, Grazing Hits is fine conceptually.
And, eon, that is my only point.

There are flaws in its implementation, but those can be corrected by the game designers. However, I don't agree we should "drop it". If there are bugs, pester Turbine to death so they fix it. Take 404error hostage if you want. If there are some tweaks that could make you cope with the change better, push for them like I tried to do in beta. But, saying to "drop it" is not something I'll agree with, however.

AS far as the extra damage goes, I'm not getting much because I KNOW the value of AC even before this mess.
As I mentioned earlier (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2397955#post2397955), I believe a change of this kind was required before making AC matter.

But for the love of everything Unholy, let me open a freaking door or pull a switch if I take 1 or 2 points of GRAZING dmg!!!
I'm still wondering why there is an activation time to levers and doors, or why being hits for small amounts should interrupt us.

I could maybe see it for a huge, damaging critical hit but...

Sorry to quote this from earlier Borror0, but he stated Low HP, High AC characters.
Yeah, I misread there.

[KuRRuPT]

Ok first off let me start out by saying they took it away once before which was before your time should I say... they decided to bring it back which in my eyes is a good thing because in the high content you better be glad you got it because of how hard they are to kill with out using a G S weapon from the shroud on top of that because nothing else out there works spells on the mobs out there don't even work which is the way I like it the more harder the mobs the more fun I have....I say scale all mobs up higher then that make it harder for us to kill them I say....

[KuRRuPT]

Signed. Not that it matters what anything thinks at this point.

Turbine spent a ton of time making a system to fix the massively out of whack AC modifiers they added to the game (icy for one), and under the guide of 'we wont take something away from players because it might make them mad' argument - instead added an ENTIRE SYSTEM that effectively 'takes away' they ac anyway.

And guess what - people are even more mad than if they had of just nurfed some of the over the top AC modifiers, and lowered monster to hit like they should have.

I kinda like the ac thing because it don't mean nothing any more lol all this fuse over I have 60+ ac and die before a 36+ ac lol one of the reason I never splashed a toon after that high ac only went after dps and can still stand by a 60+ ac ALIVE with 36+ ac :D

[sephiroth1084]

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage??? Thats total horse @@@@ and you know it. When was the last time a character you made had trouble landing hits? I don't consider myself uber, but I don't have trouble hitting. My characters do not gain from the grazing system because they are scoring hits anyway.

How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was? Have you ever run hard or elite content a level or two above your own in the level 1-14 range? Everyone but the most twinked out characters will have a little trouble hitting some monsters. Other monsters can be almost impossible to touch: Stormcleave elite at level 7? Hitting those fire giants is close to impossible. Ever die in the Shroud and wanna jump back into the fight against Harry? Some characters don't hit too well at that point with no buffs and a death penalty. Ever try meleeing stuff in the Vale and beyond with your caster? I do so with a Dreamspitter frequently--yeah, I could hit fairly well before, but now even many of my misses are doing something productive.


I'm not a pnp player. I've argued with people who say the game must be more like pnp. Me? I just want them to stop dorking up the game. I can see how the d20 is iconic and changing it would be tramatic, but if the bonuses have exceeded the capacity of a d20, then maybe we should talk about changing to a dxx that covers a more acceptable range. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the grazing is pretty hacked in this one person's opinion.
That's much more than a small change. For one, the system works at lower levels and may start working for non-uber characters as monsters get adjusted a bit more. The d20 is more than just iconic, it's how the whole system is designed.

[KuRRuPT]

/not signed :(

[Missing_Minds]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

The damage, baring the scaling system messup, may be fine. However, the flinching reaction is not fine. That is the only part of grazing that is messed up in my opinion. Flinching from zero damage? No, that just isn't right.

[eonfreon]

And, eon, that is my only point.

There are flaws in its implementation, but those can be corrected by the game designers. However, I don't agree we should "drop it". If there are bugs, pester Turbine to death so they fix it. Take 404error hostage if you want. If there are some tweaks that could make you cope with the change better, push for them like I tried to do in beta. But, saying to "drop it" is not something I'll agree with, however.

As I mentioned earlier (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2397955#post2397955), I believe a change of this kind was required before making AC matter.

I'm still wondering why there is an activation time to levers and doors, or why being hits for small amounts should interrupt us.

I could maybe see it for a huge, damaging critical hit but...



I know that's your point Borr. And as always I'll grin and bear it and thank my lucky stars I made the right decisions which Turbine has not yet invalidated or weakened.

Yeah, I'm not in the "Just Get Rid of it Crowd". But, I am in favor of dropping it until the Grazing Hit flinch mechanic is removed. Because it adds nothing to the game currently, other then to cost us slightly more resources, or a lot of resources for those that had created builds that are specifically hit by this.

They certainly didn't lower Mob to-hit like they said would be the next step. I know, I know, they'll get to it soon(tm). But how much do you want to bet they'll work on the other part of their "plan" first, and raise Mob AC so that we finally start getting Grazing Hits on Mobs on decent warrior builds too and need to actually wait on out later attacks to guarantee a hit and can't jump all over the place using their own bodies against them like I usually do.
The high AC MOB will force me to "stand and deliver" if I only get Grazing Hits on te first or even second attack. That part I don't mind, bring them on. I'm not a gambling man, but I'm willing to bet that Turbine will raise Mob AC long before they lower MOB to-hit, like they said they would.

Certainly I'm not frothing at the mouth about it. But I have a question.

In Beta we all noticed two glaring mistakes right away.
One: Rogue's were getting Sneak Attack damage on Grazing Hits.
Two: We were flinching and being interrupted on Grazing Hits that did little to NO DAMAGE.

Well, I'm pretty sure Grazing Hits still cause interruptions and flinches.
How about the Rogue bug with Grazing Hits?
I'm pretty willing to bet that they fixed THAT rather quickly.
But the interruptions were too low a priority I'm sure.

They could at least acknowledge that it's a known issue or just say that's intended. Sure, I'll grumble, but I'd at least appreciate some word on this.

So, of course they aren't going to change this system. But I certainly ain't gonna give them any Kudos for it. Quite the opposite. I think whoever did the actual programming did a rather p1ss-poor job of it.

[eonfreon]

I read that post you linked and I agree Borr. But you touched on one of the other weaknesses I see in this system that makes it's implementation rather premature or badly thought through.
The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the HIgh AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes. The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly. The Monk splash has the AC and the dps, so he was unbalanced in comparison.
So they gave the S&B a bone with the passive DR aspect of holding a shield in relation to Grazing Hits. But he kills soooooo much slower then the TWF Ranger/Monk, that the extra DR protection that the S&B gets is practically invalidated by the TWF killing faster and still taking less damage because he's still taking less hits, Grazing or otherwise. If they had at least given armor some additional DR then that would give a little extra bonus to the S&B, since most Ranger/Monks can't wear armor or they lose AC.
But as is, the ones Turbine was trying to "take down a peg" a largely unaffected, they just have to heal themselves a bit more.
But since the S&B is still so freaking slow to kill, he's taking MORE damage then the equal AC Monk, even though the S&B has more DR, because the S&B is getting hit with double the amount of Grazing Hits.
So once again it backfires.
But yeah, we might as well keep the system. This way it'll be the only system new players know and they'll have far less illusions of the benefit of high AC low dps as compared to no AC high dps.
So on Paladin I've gone from 60 AC, to 50 AC, and now I'm down to 30 (I think other then being naked I can't get lower). So I suppose I should grumble out one thank you to Turbine.

Turbine, thank you for getting rid of the AC grind I was involved in by making it far less then worth my while to even bother. Thank you for clearing up my gear slots since I no longer worry about Armored Bracers or +5 Protection Items. Heck, my Icy Raiments was gathering dust before already.
Radiance Guard DT Vestments for the win :).

[eonfreon]

Take 404error hostage if you want.


Hmmm, not a bad idea. I know a guy who knows a guy who's got a cousin who works for some people that just might make this happen ;).

But I think it's a bit expensive so we might all have to pinch in.

I can see it now; "Fix the interruptions on Grazing Hits or else....." ;).

[Aspenor]

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.

Turbine basically said "We put way too many ac mods into the game, and dont have the guts to nurf some, so instead were going to nurf the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM and pretend that wont make anyone mad also".

Defend away tho.

Uh, kill the stupid kobolds. You can't kill kobolds on a level 16-20 character?

[Borror0]

The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B
Eladrin disagrees with you. Take a look the OP in the Grazing Hits thread, he did list that as one of the motivation behind the change.

The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly.
I don't think many will agree with you on that statement.

Many people rather think that S&B was underpowered as illustrated by the numerous threads discussing ways to improve S&B since Module 7.

[eonfreon]

Eladrin disagrees with you. Take a look the OP in the Grazing Hits thread, he did list that as one of the motivation behind the change.

I don't remember him saying anything about S&B AC specifically but rather "too" high AC characters in general being a problem to challenge with damage.

S&B has other problems. Being too powerful to be challenged under the old rules wasn't one of them. AS I've said they already took long to kill the MOB, so their main saving grace is that even if it took awhile they still were relatively unharmed due to AC.

The Monk Splash AC was the problem and this doesn't barely even come close to addressing that. So a Ranger/Monk will take 10 grazing damage instead of the 5 grazing dmg the S&B takes per hit. But the S&B gives the MOB more opportunities to attack and cause the S&B more accumulated dmg then the Ranger/Monk with the same AC who kills 2 times faster.
I'll look up his OP on the subject later and check what Eladrin states about S&B AC vs Ranger/Monk AC


I don't think many will agree with you on that statement.

Many people rather think that S&B was underpowered as illustrated by the numerous threads discussing ways to improve S&B since Module 7.

Sigh, Borr, that my freaking point. That statement makes sense if you put it in it's context, not cutting it out to address seperately like you've done. Obviously you did not get what I'm saying.

No, S&B is NOT balanced. They are MORE balanced in AC to dps ratio in COMPARISON to the Ranger/Monk, whose AC to dps ratio is far more unbalanced. The S&B is far more hurt by this change then the Ranger/Monk. The paltry extra protection the S&B has over the TWF Ranger/Monk does little to lessen the disparity. So they hurt the S&B defense while adding little to his offense. They barely affect the Ranger/Monk AC because the killing speed of the TWF makes a mockery of the MOB's attack speed- they can attack what 2-3 times before they are killed, maybe 6-10 attacks if they are really tough (not talking Bosses here).
How many attacks can they attempt on a S&B before the MOB are finally killed by the S&B? I'm sure it's a lot more.

Okay, I'll bite. How does this system improve S&B?

Remember I'm not against this system per se, but I'd like to know how this helps the high AC S&B.

[Tarackian]

/signed.......gawd do i agree with this...why even have AC if we're going to let them hit on a 13 or whatever....just roll the dang dice and FORGET all the rules Turbine. This grazing system is for the cows.........not DNDers....




Because I should not hit mobs on any 10. I should hit mobs when I exceed their AC and/or on a 20.

Mobs should not hit me on any 13. They should hit me when they exceed my AC and/or on a 20.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much. Many of the changes that Turbine is making lately push us all into a playstyle of high HP and high DPS and I am against the pigeon holing that is taking place currently. The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters. To this point, I've actually changed my new character from being a high-AC dex based FvS to being a STR based FvS with little emphasis on AC. What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???

Oh yeah, the last guy who gave me positive rep was only worth 3 points, so I hope you don't slap me again for having a different opinion than yours or I'll prolly be negative.

[eonfreon]

Just reread Eladrin's Op on Grazing Hits.
Sorry, Borr, it does not say that this is a counter to the high AC S&B, but rather to high AC characters in general. We all know the problems he's referring to isn't just AC, but the combination of AC and dps, which can trivialize the content if high enough. So I know they want to hit the Ranger/Monk splashes and make them take more damage so that they can at least feel like they are working hard and taking punishment, while the S&B guy who already has a harder time, is affected even more.

I'm not saying that's even wrong. I don't even disagree that high AC is a "problem" in a video game. But the problem was disproportional and Turbine's implementation actually widens the power gap between S&B and TWF.
If you had a 70 AC S&B and 70 AC Ranger/Monk in your group at least you could rely on the S&B to not take too much damage.

Now the S&B is even more of a liability, because his defense is weakened but his offense is barely given anything to come even close to trying to compensate.

So my full statement stands:
The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the HIgh AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes. The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly. The Monk splash has the AC and the dps, so he was unbalanced in comparison.

Remember the term "unbalanced in comparison" summarizes that paragraph. You did me a disservice by cutting it up and inferring that I meant S&B are Balanced in the game. I am quite offended and rankled by your assumption of my stupidity :). I aint quite that dumb ;).

[Borror0]

I don't remember him saying anything about S&B AC specifically but rather "too" high AC characters in general being a problem to challenge with damage.
The number of times I have quoted this post by now is ridiculous:


"Why are you doing this?"
Expected effects of this include:
• Extremely high AC does not grant essentially complete immunity to monsters, though it still provides a substantial advantage (base weapon damage / 2, with no bonuses). This is a much gentler way of addressing some AC issues that DDO has than many other proposals.
• Shields may gain additional attractiveness.
In the above quote, you seem to suggest that it matters whether or not his statement was directed uniquely at S&B characters. It does not. As a matter, it would be problematic for me if he did because it would mean, by definition, that it does not apply to the point I am defending.

The statement of yours I was replying to was "The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes." and that is false. As the quote above demonstrates, it was to attack all types of AC build with a bias favoring those who do wear shields. I you prefer, the problem was "The High AC guy." and not only "the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes."

S&B has other problems. Being too powerful to be challenged under the old rules wasn't one of them.
Assuming that a S&B character deals 50% of a DPS build's DPS and that there are four melee characters in the group, the overall DPS loss is of about 12% which is a meaningless loss if you are to gain survivability many times higher. Of course, the percentage of loss reduces even lower in a raid (~6%).

The problem is, why slow us down when we don't need to?

If the players learn to play with the S&B character, it's an easy button but the content is already too easy so there is no reason to learn.

AS I've said they already took long to kill the MOB, so their main saving grace is that even if it took awhile they still were relatively unharmed due to AC.
To present time as a balancing factor means that you don't realize that time is what gamers want to sacrifice the least.

Obviously you did not get what I'm saying.
No, I didn't. I had a clue of what you could have meant but I didn't find it clear enough.

Okay, I'll bite. How does this system improve S&B?
It doesn't. Worse, if I thought it did, I would need an head exam. But, it does allow the room for improvement.

As I have established earlier, players don't want to skip on time. The faster they finish fights, the more loot and XP they will get per the hour. Therefore, players will try to squeeze as much DPS as they can in a build. As it was not enough, high DPS is more popular because it contributes better to the fantasy MMOs try to fulfill. That is, we all want to feel like heroes (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/the-fear-of-impact-in-the-mmo-genre/). Both of these facts increase the competition for S&B characters who rely on lower DPS but greater survivability to the point where most gamers will skip on S&B simply because it slows them down and is not needed.

For that reason, if you want players to play tanks, you have to force them by increasing the damage output of NPCs to a level that DPS characters can't manage without the help of a tank to reduce the incoming damage. However, the survivability between high and low AC is incredibly high. Even worse, the difference between 90% avoidance and 95% is twice less melee damage. If designers want to balance S&B, they'll have to nerf high AC somehow.

Don't get me wrong, S&B has gotten worse in M9 on many aspects and grazing hits is at the cause of a one of them.

However, I do think that something alike grazing hits was needed for the reasons Eladrin listed in his OP (and that so many people don't seem to even understand).

[Mylon]

A few things to note:

Level 20 in DDO is more like level 30 or more in pen and paper. All of the bonuses characters can acquire in this game (such as many of the action point enhancements, and in many cases predictable encounters which leads to lots of pre-buffing) tend to add up to much higher powered level 20s than the pen and paper would produce. There's a reason 21+ in pen and paper everyone gets the same epic bonus to attack and saves.

Debuffs, sunder. There are ways to lower high ACs so other people can hit. I actually like how sunder works in this game compared to the PnP.

Secondary attacks. In PnP later levels a fighter's first attack is supposed to be a guaranteed hit. Likewise with monst monsters with multiple attacks. Bonuses to hit are supposed to make that third attack more reliable and that fourth attack possible. Without the 20/15/10/5 BAB system and anyone being able to swing 4 times in a round at full attack bonus, it's obvious that AC becomes so much more important for players _and_ monsters.

All that said, the options are as follows:

Move to a system truer to the PnP, with lower attack bonuses for secondary attacks.

Design smarter encounters with enemies making proper use of debuffs (a big collective of dispels when the encounter starts might be a start).

An extra system to compensate for the differences. Such as the grazing hit system.

I do think there should be some means to acquire extra DR only versus grazing hits, though. Base damage may not sound like a lot, but a 6d6 slam can hurt.

[eonfreon]

In the above quote, you seem to suggest that it matters whether or not his statement was directed uniquely at S&B characters. It does not. As a matter, it would be problematic for me if he did because it would mean, by definition, that it does not apply to the point I am defending.

Gotcha. No that wasn't what I was saying at all. I was fully aware he was talking about the overall AC issue. I know what you're defending, to some extent. And I prefer this system to several alternatives. But the truth of the matter is that it is NOT just one AC issue, it's manifold, so this is far more hurtful then it needed to be. This is what I was bringing up. I do think the PrE's help, though.


The statement of yours I was replying to was "The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes." and that is false. As the quote above demonstrates, it was to attack all types of AC build with a bias favoring those who do wear shields. I you prefer, the problem was "The High AC guy." and not only "the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes."

Thank you now I see our misunderstanding. I know this is about the overall AC issue. But my point is that there are 2 parts to the AC issue. The "traditional" idea is that a "high AC low dps more survivable" character should play the "Tank" to distract the enemy and deflect the damage (not absorb it) while a supposedly "low AC high dps" character does the major damage. This game originally allowed the idea of the High AC to compensate for the Low dps and in some cases the Low hp of some builds. Now suddenly there is a new system to wear away hp far quicker introduced. Yet there is no trade-off for those that are changed. They are just "affected".

So now the high HP high dps guy becomes the more "Preferred Tank". Hit Points and DR now substitute even more for AC. It is so much better a defense since high AC doesn't reduce nearly as much damage as before. And if needed for "defense" a THF or TWF can quickly grab a shield and reduce damage enough to heal up and then switch back to dps mode and trade blows again.


Assuming that a S&B character deals 50% of a DPS build's DPS and that there are four melee characters in the group, the overall DPS loss is of about 12% which is a meaningless loss if you are to gain survivability many times higher. Of course, the percentage of loss reduces even lower in a raid (~6%).

But they no longer "gain survivability many times higher", they now gain it a bit less due to Grazing Hits. Of course that dps loss doesn't hurt the group much but he is still more of a liability then before. The fact that the game is easy enough that it doesn't matter is not the point.
To us Elite is a cakewalk (sometimes ;)) but to others Hard is Darn Tough :). I know, I know, they should stay out of Elite.



It doesn't. Worse, if I thought it did, I would need an head exam. But, it does allow the room for improvement.
I know it doesn't (improve S&B), that's why I realized you misunderstood me. I'm just saying rather than address the AC issue it hurt the AC issue by making S&B even worse.
Because it's no problem for us TWF to compensate. We just do what we were supposed to and the fact our AC is devalued doesn't effect what we do ;)- I get hit a little bit more but not enough to be worrisome, even in mid-AC mode 50-60 AC. S&B could hit 70 AC without dealing with the buffs I had to so they had that advantage at least, not quite so much now.
I just defend the idea that it was premature and it wouldn't hurt to "pause" it, perhaps for Normal, if that was possible.
I rather like Grazing Hits except for the interruption mechanic, that can get really old. Wear my character down sure, but differentiate that it's "Grazing" dmg and not "Direct" dmg. 1-10 damage is a trifling matter, it shouldn't distract me from turning a switch, darn it ;). Heck, neither should anything less then a 100 dmg, but whatever.



To present time as a balancing factor means that you don't realize that time is what gamers want to sacrifice the least.

Right, that's why it was a bad balance but a balance nonetheless. Out of any four melees in a group, having 1 AC S&B can be quite good. Having more then one is usually a mistake. The group is NOT being slowed down by the S&B because since the rest of the melee are TWF or THF the dps loss is minimal but if a S&B can deflect damage well enough and hold aggo well enough (intimidate) while allowing the dps crew to maximize their dps then all the better, far easier on the cleric and the Wizard too. Now you might as well have a high HP intimidate (a Barb usually)
character in that role, since high HP is just gotten that much better than AC.
And Barbarians, despite popular opinion, do not always require a healer "stapled to their ass". That "healer" can be themselves with just a splash of Wand Using Classes. Hit points are the very thing the Devs want to "wear down" thus that value just went up as the value of ways to protect Hit Points went down. We're not going to die from this, it's not a critical hit, just a thing to make us drink more pots, cast more wands, repair, etc. And due to the weird order of the way DR is applied you can easily reduce damage to next to nothing but the "traditional" manner, the shield-blocking Tactics Fighter is further hamstrung. Slow thoughtful combat is further devalued over hack-and-slash, fast dps attacks.
Good thing I'm a hack-and-slasher type LOL.


As I have established earlier, players don't want to skip on time. The faster they finish fights, the more loot and XP they will get per the hour. Therefore, players will try to squeeze as much DPS as they can in a build. As it was not enough, high DPS is more popular because it contributes better to the fantasy MMOs try to fulfill. That is we all want to feel like heroes[. Both of these facts increase the competition for S&B characters who rely on lower DPS but greater survivability to the point where most gamers will skip on S&B simply because it slows them down and is not needed.

For that reason, if you want players to play tanks, you have to force them by increasing the damage output of NPCs to a level that DPS characters can't manage without the help of a tank to reduce the incoming damage. However, the survivability between high and low AC is incredibly high. Even worse, the difference between 90% avoidance and 95% is twice less melee damage. If designers want to balance S&B, they'll have to nerf high AC somehow.

Yes. Actually they HAVE already nerfed high AC, in a very inefficient and shortsighted way. AND in the process they've actually made S&B even worse!!!


Don't get me wrong, S&B has gotten worse in M9 on many aspects and grazing hits is at the cause of a one of them.

Yes, that was my point. Grazing Hits is another problem for S&B, so their Grind just became less important, but although I do think the PrE's are a good step to it, they don't allow DR enhancements for alternative ways to achieve the same ends, it's either play this PrE or find magic items. That's why I think it should have been delayed a bit in implementation. But oh well.


However, I do think that something alike grazing hits was needed for the reasons Eladrin listed in his OP (and that so many people don't seem to even understand).

Sure, have Grazing Hits, but DO IT RIGHT and until then TURN IT OFF for anything below Elite, okay Hard maybe, I like Grazing HIts so I'll gladly face it, by not even being effected by it ;).

So no need to "do away with" certainly, but I sure wish they could have prioritized some other things and helped out S&B a little more before they made things even tougher for them. They could have delayed this. And they certainly could have fixed the stupid flinch and interrupt stuff before activating this system.

While I agree that this system has merit and it is likely just a matter of tweaking , I think it was rather premature. So this is just my attempt to pester Turbine.

I merely want them to acknowledge that things that annoy us also matter and I unrealistically wish they would have spent a little more time on fixing things, related to this new system, such as flinching. Yes the S&B have the nice new PrEs, but a little extra attack speed would have been nice too to compensate for the small loss of defense.

Since the DA system is already in place to stop us from trying to bypass things by running past and activating doors/items without fighting what we're supposed to, they could prioritize fixing the flinch on Graze mechanic so that it doesn't interrupt us.

I just hope they at least give some real consideration to changing the interruptions. And allow those who want to resist some more damage do so through Feats, Enhancements, and more DR items. Maybe even Stances.

I like it how it is for Elite. Although I think the damage for Grazing should have more ways for further reduction in exchange for something else. And if they truly plan on raising MOB AC to challenge our to-hit they really need to give us a little more to our 'Base" damage compared to the MOB base damage.

Again, stances and enhancements would be nice. More choices, more headaches ;), but I appreciate having them, nonetheless.

As always it's just another bunch of challenges. The challenge being teaching PUGS to play nice ;). The other challenge being making me want to get away from the safety of my Guild :).

EDIT" Well of course I edited it. That wall of text means many many grammatical and spelling errors. Anglais iz nao mi 1rst language, bruther :).

[Borror0]

Sure, have Grazing Hits, but DO IT RIGHT and until then TURN IT OFF for anything below Elite, okay Hard maybe
Pretty much everything that you said turns around this message, so I'll reply to this line only.

If they didn't get quite right, then they have to leave it on. Turning it off would be a mistake. By leaving it on, it'll allow them to gather data. It's certainly too early to turn it off right now: there is a DS bug that affects the validity of the data, they are too many people who dislike grazing hits to even give them a chance so you've got to give them the time to shallow the pill before they can post honest feedback, players are not fully geared out yet, removing the system will give the anti-grazing hits crew reason (when they were wrong) and anger them again when the system comes back,etc.

If a system is poorly implemented, depending on the nature of the system, it may be better to leave it on. I don't think it's too disruptive to gameplay to warrant turning it off. If they don't plan any tweaks to monster balance for Module 10 and that we,ll have to wait for module 11, maybe, but I hope that it is not case. ;)

[Gelandor]

I hit you with ~35 positive rep for a buffer against differing opinions, and also because I don't really like the system either.

I gave you rep because that was cool of you to do!

[TechNoFear]

I think the game has changed and high DPS with low/no damage mitigation builds are no longer the optimum.


I was out in the devil battleground and we were trying to do some testing about it. It seems wildly erratic. I'll go back out again, of course, and see if we can figure anything conclusive out, but it seems buggy so far.

That, and it is a royal kick in the junk to anyone who has good AC and/or high to-hit.

I have over 400 solo kills in the Battleground with my 17 paladin. Using a twr shield and Angel Skin negates all grazes. I think I only used 2 CMW wands to do it (as there are plenty of shrines).

Named require a bit of tactics (run away! being the only option in some cases)

[uhgungawa]

If you have high dps and high hp this is fine. However, that is the exact character bias I am complaining about. Low (300-350hp) high AC (>65) characters are massive penalized by this. Unless you always have a dedicated cleric running mass cures.

My guild runs >50% without any healer. Damage avoidance is the forte. With this change, damage avoidance is incredible difficult. Very few AC builds have access to DR. (Pure monk is the only one I can think of.)

My ranger/rogue, for example, has self buffed AC in the low 60s and right at 300 hp. I could, with a combination of buffs, self healing and careful play, out survive and outdamage many "dps builds" because I could stay in the fight longer (the dps guys would have to back out for taking too much damage.) With the low-ish hp that doesn't work any longer. Getting hit that often (even for a small amount) in combination with the regular hits from the mobs is too much. So, I suppose I'm just spouting sour apples, but I'm looking at a serious problem with my oldest character. Can ya blame me for not liking the system?


Here's your problem. you are just getting hit, not grazed. Your AC would need to be a bit higher than that to be a high AC toon out in the new area. My highest AC toon is around a 60 AC and has no problems that can't be delt with, but then again I gave it 550 HP not 300 :rolleyes:

[eonfreon]

Pretty much everything that you said turns around this message, so I'll reply to this line only.

If they didn't get quite right, then they have to leave it on. Turning it off would be a mistake. By leaving it on, it'll allow them to gather data. It's certainly too early to turn it off right now: there is a DS bug that affects the validity of the data, they are too many people who dislike grazing hits to even give them a chance so you've got to give them the time to shallow the pill before they can post honest feedback, players are not fully geared out yet, removing the system will give the anti-grazing hits crew reason (when they were wrong) and anger them again when the system comes back,etc.

If a system is poorly implemented, depending on the nature of the system, it may be better to leave it on. I don't think it's too disruptive to gameplay to warrant turning it off. If they don't plan any tweaks to monster balance for Module 10 and that we,ll have to wait for module 11, maybe, but I hope that it is not case. ;)

Fair enough. Keeping this system active in all it's flawed glory will indeed generate plenty of feedback for the Devs to mull over.

[redoubt]

IThey certainly didn't lower Mob to-hit like they said would be the next step. I know, I know, they'll get to it soon(tm). But how much do you want to bet they'll work on the other part of their "plan" first, and raise Mob AC so that we finally start getting Grazing Hits on Mobs on decent warrior builds too and need to actually wait on out later attacks to guarantee a hit and can't jump all over the place using their own bodies against them like I usually do.
The high AC MOB will force me to "stand and deliver" if I only get Grazing Hits on te first or even second attack. That part I don't mind, bring them on. I'm not a gambling man, but I'm willing to bet that Turbine will raise Mob AC long before they lower MOB to-hit, like they said they would.
.

I hope your prediction is wrong, though its probably not. If they continue down the road of making this game a game of simply standing toe-to-toe with every mob and just using autoattack...

On a positive note, I did run stealthy repossesion last night on my new FvS. Not as bad as I expected. I killed the non-prophets in the first half then ran and grabbed the eye, then ran back out.

Ran again, with 3 friends on elite and did the same. So maybe there is still hope.

[redoubt]

Turbine, thank you for getting rid of the AC grind I was involved in by making it far less then worth my while to even bother. Thank you for clearing up my gear slots since I no longer worry about Armored Bracers or +5 Protection Items. Heck, my Icy Raiments was gathering dust before already.
Radiance Guard DT Vestments for the win :).

Exactly what I mean when I say they are pushing a single style of play. Thank you for showing I am not completely allow in that assesment.

[redoubt]

Uh, kill the stupid kobolds. You can't kill kobolds on a level 16-20 character?

If you kill more than 6 kobold prophets in there you fail.

[redoubt]

I think the game has changed and high DPS with low/no damage mitigation builds are no longer the optimum.



I have over 400 solo kills in the Battleground with my 17 paladin. Using a twr shield and Angel Skin negates all grazes. I think I only used 2 CMW wands to do it (as there are plenty of shrines).

Named require a bit of tactics (run away! being the only option in some cases)

I can kill out there just fine. I was more commenting on what seems to be an erratic system. The Battleground was simply where I (and a few friends) noticed it first. I've since noticed it in the harbor as well, now that I'm looking for it.

[redoubt]

Here's your problem. you are just getting hit, not grazed. Your AC would need to be a bit higher than that to be a high AC toon out in the new area. My highest AC toon is around a 60 AC and has no problems that can't be delt with, but then again I gave it 550 HP not 300 :rolleyes:

The character I specifically mentioned has not even been played in the new mod. I've mostly played my sorc to see how the new mod affects him. I did some testing on my monk because I friend asked me to go out to the battleground and see if I saw the same thing he did. My monk is still low hp, but its 369 (not 300) and I was running between 68-72 AC out there.

I've not bothered playing my ranger (again, my oldest toon) because I don't think the build is still viable in the new mod despite being very effective previously. But who knows, maybe I'll test it out (with that character) one of these days.

[redoubt]

Borro0 and Eonfron, you keep mentioning the problem of the high AC guy. Why didn't they just limit the AC boost from monk to when you are centered or some other similar mechanic? That right there would remove 99% of the super DPS/super AC builds. And it would do so without screwing all the other good builds. It would actually take aim at the one that is the issue, but eveyone is afraid to be that blunt.

[Borror0]

It'd be useful to complain only once you have experience with the new module.

[Borror0]

Borro0 and Eonfron, you keep mentioning the problem of the high AC guy. Why didn't they just limit the AC boost from monk to when you are centered or some other similar mechanic?
If you followed the discussion eon and I had, you would know that it would not address the problem. As I said multiple times in this thread, one of the problem that Eladrin was trying to address would arise from all possible high AC build that could ever be created. It's an inherent flaw within the d20 system. Therefore, lowering the DPS or AC of ranger/monks would not address that problem.

Besides, as explained by Eladrin and I, this was not the main motivation behind grazing hits but rather to allow the integration of misses without being disruptive to the gameplay experience of players if the miss chances are fairly high for a character.

[redoubt]

If you followed the discussion eon and I had, you would know that it would not address the problem. As I said multiple times in this thread, one of the problem that Eladrin was trying to address would arise from all possible high AC build that could ever be created. It's an inherent flaw within the d20 system. Therefore, lowering the DPS or AC of ranger/monks would not address that problem.

Besides, as explained by Eladrin and I, this was not the main motivation behind grazing hits but rather to allow the integration of misses without being disruptive to the gameplay experience of players if the miss chances are fairly high for a character.

I have been following the discussion. I've also been following the forums since long before monk came out. (Obviously, you spend a lot more time here than most and remember a lot more quotes about it as evidenced by your posts (and post count)).

I remember all the discussion when monk came out about the trouble it would cause with splahes.

I remember all the discussions about how monks don't have enough dps.

When you put all these together, I do not see how ALL high AC builds are the problem. A monk running 75-85AC is not the problem. The monk doesn't have enough dps to unbalance the system. The monk takes longer to kill, longer to complete. How does the grazing system help balance monks? It seems to me that it simply nerfs them further and it leaves the monk splashes on the top of the heap.

If we are honest, what was really the problem?
-- pure monks? No.
-- pure paladins? No.
-- pure wizards? No.
-- pure barbarians? No.
I could go on, but its not any of those. There are a few builds that would come close, but none match the ranger w/a splash of monk and rogue. Its a great build and I don't like nerfs, but what has been done does not balance anything, but yet it is being done in the name of balance. (You've already agreed with me that it has nothing to do with helping us hit mobs.)

I have seen your quote from Big E, but I think it falls short of hitting the complete truth of the matter.

Now switching gears slightly. Some alternatives:
- go from a d20 to a d something else
- add a second roll that is added to the d20 based on bab. i.e. a level 5 barbarian rolls a d20 and a d5 (5 bab.) A level 40 3/4 bab class rolls a d20 and a d15 for the total to hit roll. Mobs would have some sort of scale for this as well (that holds them to the same max second die that players have). This would double the possible range at end game.
- or at least alter the grazing numbers.
--solo no mobs don't graze, players graze on 17
--norm mobs graze on 19, players graze on 18
--hard mobs graze on 18, players graze on 19
--elite mobs graze on 17, players don't graze (its elite after all.)
----This allows Big E to "help players hit" and doesn't penalize AC builds so much.

[Aspenor]

Borro0 and Eonfron, you keep mentioning the problem of the high AC guy. Why didn't they just limit the AC boost from monk to when you are centered or some other similar mechanic? That right there would remove 99% of the super DPS/super AC builds. And it would do so without screwing all the other good builds. It would actually take aim at the one that is the issue, but eveyone is afraid to be that blunt.

A good game master doesn't "take aim" to specifically take down a build. They make a change that alters the effectiveness of the build.

Also, Eladrin mentioned several other reasons he made grazing hits, and you seem to be ignoring them. It was not merely to make the monk splash less effective, no matter how often you may try to convince yourself of this.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but I have no problems at all with the system. If somebody wants to complain about a kobold being able to hit their 80 AC character while they are trying to pull a lever, maybe they ought to learn to kill kobolds.

[eonfreon]

The Grazing Hits system isn't that bad. It does have one Glaring Error though. That is the interrupt mechanic should have been removed for Grazing Hits. The system already differentiates between a Direct Hit and a Grazing Hit, so add code or remove code, whichever is needed, to prevent interrupts on Grazing.

Heck, they really should go a step further and add to the whole damage system something like:
If dmg rolled > 10 Interrupt based on Concentration check.
If dmg rolled =< 10 Interrupt based on Concentration Check + 10 - damage rolled.
If dmg rolled < 2 No Interrupt Possible.
Repeat.

But anyway, it's pretty useless to put suggestions in a Thread entitled Drop the Grazing Bow System, because no Dev is going to bother reading the posts in a thread like this. They're just going to let us argue amongst ourselves.

Maybe I'll start a THread Like:
Thoughts on Grazing Hits.

But I just want to touch one last time on the TWF/S&B god-AC modes. I've done the best to keep my AC relevant. At low levels and mid-levels it's rather easy. And at higher levels it gets progressively harder and begins to take more "dedication". Or luck, of course. This was always fine with me. I lacked that high dedication plus during the course of playing I've learned better methods of protection then AC for the most part. So I just kind of casually grabbed items and increased AC slowly, but steadily, and stayed in relevant range enough for my purposes. I wasn't worried about getting hit on a "20", in some cases, as long as my dps didn't suffer, I'm good with increasing the Mobs and Bosses misses, even if they could still hit me on a "6" or better. Or on a 12 or more in ShieldBlock mode.

I play a TWF who knows when to pull out a shield.
The fact that in S&B mode my AC can reach 68 (not god-mode- but getting there) with Raid Buffs really can't be the current problem, because I so greatly hamstring my dps that it has to be a "special" occassion for the AC gain to offset the dps loss.

Now, the fact that my selfsame TWF can disregard a shield and with the proper Raid Buffs hit a 69 AC (yes I gain 1 point of AC if I rather use a Shield Wand then a Shield) while in full dps mode, would have to be a greater problem.

Well, they've solved the AC problem, an I really have no problem with that, rather like it except for the interrupt baloney. But S&B has been lacking before there was even a Monk class in this game. So that has been a problem for far longer. It would be nice if they'd work a little harder on that now that they've "taken us down a peg".
So if the Devs are also worried that somehow S&B would become a problem if it maintained high near-untouchable AC, then they must be considering improving S&B dps considerably.

Maybe that's what Borr means by "allows for improvement". I didn't understand this statement before. How could this method allow room for improvement? It takes away some of S&B defense without adding any offense to a style that needs it.

Unless Devs plan on introducing more dps for S&B soon and were worried that they needed to reduce AC somehow first or the dps gain to S&B would tip things again? If this is the case, I really hope that get along with it and improve S&B a bit. Or just post a Big Warning Sign at character Creation.

Warning: Shields are only Useful Until your Attack speed far exceeds it with both TWF and THF. At which point keep that shield in your backpack until such time as you're sent in as a ShieldBlock and Take Heals distraction. There are two Combat styles: THF and TWF, the shield is only a tool to be used as last resort.
Thank You.
The Management.

[TheJusticar]

So, why do you want you to remove grazing hits?

Simple. Grazing hits is a House Rule that simply doesn't fit with the system. It breaks the system.

by the way, I totally /agree with OP.

Godspeed.

[redoubt]

Warning: Shields are only Useful Until your Attack speed far exceeds it with both TWF and THF. At which point keep that shield in your backpack until such time as you're sent in as a ShieldBlock and Take Heals distraction. There are two Combat styles: THF and TWF, the shield is only a tool to be used as last resort.
Thank You.
The Management.

Agree, the flinch this on a grazing hit doesn't seem correct.

For the rest, I'm beginning to think we are talking 'round each other in circles. It sounds like you like the idea of grazing hits, but don't really think it has helped anything so far. I.e. the gap between the combat styles.

Also you talk about your AC builds, but none are exceeding 70. At that point (exceeding 70) you are talking about the people who have put in a LOT of time attaining AC gear. It sound like you have good gear, but not all the pieces. Consider the time required to attain rainments and chattering. Then consider the trade offs to get 30+ dex and things like the dodge feat. That is a considerable investment in AC.

That said, I can see why you are not as upset by the change as I am. You have considerably less investment in AC than I do.

As for what Eladrin said, I don't believe him on it anymore. If he posts where he is getting data that we were having trouble hitting, then maybe I'll give him some trust back. However, when he posts that this system is designed to help the players hit and in the same "breath" says that mobs can now hit any AC on rolls as low as 13, I just see another lawyer and politician. Its like those bank commercials where the guy asks the little girl if she wants to ride the bike, but then says she has to stay in the little painted box. The tagline is: even a kid knows a bad deal when they see one.

Finally, I like your warning. (By the way, all my characters have a shield, except the monk who loses tons of AC if he puts on a shield. My sorc even lugs around the towershield from the reaver, and he uses it! 8) )

[Borror0]

If he posts where he is getting data that we were having trouble hitting, then maybe I'll give him some trust back.
I don't think Eladrin is interested in justifying a claim he did not make and most likely not agree with.

More importantly, I don't know why he lost your trust for saying something he did not say.

However, when he posts that this system is designed to help the players hit and in the same "breath" says that mobs can now hit any AC on rolls as low as 13, I just see another lawyer and politician.
What's the supposed to mean? That he is lying? What's the truth then?

[redoubt]

A good game master doesn't "take aim" to specifically take down a build. They make a change that alters the effectiveness of the build.

Also, Eladrin mentioned several other reasons he made grazing hits, and you seem to be ignoring them. It was not merely to make the monk splash less effective, no matter how often you may try to convince yourself of this.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but I have no problems at all with the system. If somebody wants to complain about a kobold being able to hit their 80 AC character while they are trying to pull a lever, maybe they ought to learn to kill kobolds.

So instead of fixing the problem you create new ones?

What problem, exactly did the grazing hits system correct?

Again, you're not allowed to kill those kobolds!!!!!!!! (Also, if you would read, I posted that I've run that quest, since starting this thread and they did a pretty good job balancing it. I ran it level appropriate on a non-AC toon. Killed the ones you can kill and was chased by a dozen you cannot kill.) I'm willing to give credit where credit is due. Its just not, in my opinion, due in the case of the grazing hit system.

[Borror0]

What problem, exactly did the grazing hits system correct?
It would be more appropriate for you to prove that Eladrin failed to meet every single of his goals. I mean, you're trying persuade him, right?

[redoubt]

I don't think Eladrin is interested in justifying a claim he did not make and most likely not agree with.

More importantly, I don't know why he lost your trust for saying something he did not say.

What's the supposed to mean? That he is lying? What's the truth then?

In the Korthos experience, monster AC’s were artificially lowered to address this problem, but we found that this simply moved the problem to later on in the harbor and marketplace dungeons.

You quoted the above from Eladrin. Where is the rest of that post?

I was under the (possibly incorrect) impression that Eladrin stated the grazing hit system was going to help players hit the mobs.

If he never said that, then I will accept that I was misinformed.

[Borror0]

In the Korthos experience, monster AC’s were artificially lowered to address this problem, but we found that this simply moved the problem to later on in the harbor and marketplace dungeons.

You quoted the above from Eladrin. Where is the rest of that post?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=188041

I was under the (possibly incorrect) impression that Eladrin stated the grazing hit system was going to help players hit the mobs.

If he never said that, then I will accept that I was misinformed.
No, he said that it would help to deal with the dissatisfaction that may result from missing a lot. That is, many players have complained that high AC characters are unfun. The solution would be to lower Armor Class to oblivion but to Eladrin does not want that, as that would remove depth from the game.

That's what lead to the creation of grazing hits: an intermediate to missing and hitting. That way, Eladrin can keep to-hit relevant while still addressing the complaint that missing a lot is not conductive to enjoyable gameplay.

It directly follows that from Eladrin posts that some ACs will be increased, and that players will hit less often. Otherwise, the addition of grazing hits would be completely pointless as players would not see grazing hits. Thus, Eladrin meant the exact opposite of what you understood: he expects players to hit less often after the implementation of grazing hits. He does expect less misses, however, as those will be replaced by grazing hits.

[eonfreon]

Agree, the flinch this on a grazing hit doesn't seem correct.

For the rest, I'm beginning to think we are talking 'round each other in circles. It sounds like you like the idea of grazing hits, but don't really think it has helped anything so far. I.e. the gap between the combat styles.

Also you talk about your AC builds, but none are exceeding 70. At that point (exceeding 70) you are talking about the people who have put in a LOT of time attaining AC gear. It sound like you have good gear, but not all the pieces. Consider the time required to attain rainments and chattering. Then consider the trade offs to get 30+ dex and things like the dodge feat. That is a considerable investment in AC.

That said, I can see why you are not as upset by the change as I am. You have considerably less investment in AC than I do.

As for what Eladrin said, I don't believe him on it anymore. If he posts where he is getting data that we were having trouble hitting, then maybe I'll give him some trust back. However, when he posts that this system is designed to help the players hit and in the same "breath" says that mobs can now hit any AC on rolls as low as 13, I just see another lawyer and politician. Its like those bank commercials where the guy asks the little girl if she wants to ride the bike, but then says she has to stay in the little painted box. The tagline is: even a kid knows a bad deal when they see one.

Finally, I like your warning. (By the way, all my characters have a shield, except the monk who loses tons of AC if he puts on a shield. My sorc even lugs around the towershield from the reaver, and he uses it! 8) )

Yes, like I said I quickly found better defenses in the game then relying on AC. My 68 mode is to show how little I invested in it so far. If it came my way, like the Icy Raiments, then awesome, but otherwise I wouldn't bother searching for an item or haunting the AH. For instance I still only have a +6 armored Bracers, since it fell in my lap. So once in a while I go on AC-hunts, sometimes Titan Runs (still no Chattering), sometimes as simple as looking for silver flame hymnals to add a +1 Alchemical Bonus (another pain for Shield users- it's so much easier to find vials of pure water to add alchemical bonus to any armor or outfit).

That's my point. I only like Grazing Hits conceptually. I don't dislike it because it has little effect on me. I never tried to avoid damage much through AC, I have other better methods for the most part. The reason I even mention my low AC is because in PUGs or with many of other Non-PowerGamers, my AC does wind up being the highest. Coupled with all healing enhancements and super-high Saves I am one of the most survivable of the Non-Ubers ;). But yes, I both do and don't like it in it's current implementation (although it's a bit better then how it was in Beta), because the ones it most effects is the ones who've worked the hardest. And disproportionally. The S&B that has no dps to compensate. The TWF would could reach that AC are also hit but now they can just fill the role Turbine has determined for them; the dps mode. I understand why they would rather lower our defenses and increase our damage received in smaller amounts then the alternative, which was increase MOB to hit to the point where high AC is even harder to get and everyone just takes even more direct damage.

I joked when I stated that my 68 Ac is anywhere near godmode. It was just to illustrate why I'm not bothered. And why I really have no way to find out how "bad" it really is. Naturally though, I do give credence and weight to people who are effected. If somehow has a character who relied on being hit only for full 50 damage on a 20, he is the one who now has to deal with taking 50 damage on a roll of 20 and a steady stream of 5-15 on a roll of 13-19. I can think it should be easy for that high AC guy, since I'm dealing with the same MOBS and they're hitting me for full damage usually on that same 13+ roll, and it has never been too tough, but since I'm used to my style I can understand how someone else was comfortable in their style. And just because folks like Aspenor say just deal with or you suck, I don't think I'm qualified to make such statements.

So I think Turbine could have made this a lot easier to swallow But it is what it is. My major gripe is for those few times I need my decent AC mode to allow me to pull a switch during combat situations, in ways intended, I shouldn't be interrupted by such paltry damage. If they didn't want someone to be able to turn off the Wind Gusts on the Ice Bridges in SOS then they wouldn't put a switch there.

So I think it might be time for me to really start needling Turbine to change or modify the interrupt mechanic.

[eonfreon]

Plus the fact that my TWF can pull out a shield and increase his AC at a high loss of dps was not much of a problem.

The fact that my TWF can stay in TWF mode and still have an equal or higher AC depending on buffs (and never lower then 3 Ac compared to carrying a shield) and still keep my full dps mode, was a bit more of a problem.

So a shield to me is just DR. I still have no reason to wear armor over vestments because armor provides neither AC nor DR (unless it's Addy or some Block armor, got a nice +5 Chainshirt of Axeblock) to me.

[Aspenor]

So instead of fixing the problem you create new ones?

What problem, exactly did the grazing hits system correct?

Again, you're not allowed to kill those kobolds!!!!!!!! (Also, if you would read, I posted that I've run that quest, since starting this thread and they did a pretty good job balancing it. I ran it level appropriate on a non-AC toon. Killed the ones you can kill and was chased by a dozen you cannot kill.) I'm willing to give credit where credit is due. Its just not, in my opinion, due in the case of the grazing hit system.

The quest is called Stealthy Repossession, not "now my AC is high enough I can't be hit by kobolds."

Be stealthy, don't just run through it. That's the whole point of the quest.

[Pyromaniac]

/signed

[TheJusticar]

Plus the fact that my TWF can pull out a shield and increase his AC at a high loss of dps was not much of a problem.

The fact that my TWF can stay in TWF mode and still have an equal or higher AC depending on buffs (and never lower then 3 Ac compared to carrying a shield) and still keep my full dps mode, was a bit more of a problem.

So a shield to me is just DR. I still have no reason to wear armor over vestments because armor provides neither AC nor DR (unless it's Addy or some Block armor, got a nice +5 Chainshirt of Axeblock) to me.

I did notice a big difference. When in full plate, shield and ranger/bard buffed I was @ AC 62. We were doing vale slayer. Even at that decently high AC, I was getting hit 5/10 times by just about everything ... dogs, hyenas, you name it. It was kind of disheartening, to be honest. Unlike power-games getting my pally's AC that high took me quite a bit of effort and time spent. Now, in a way, it's worthless.

/signed again to remove grazing hits from the game.

Godspeed.

[TheJusticar]

The quest is called Stealthy Repossession, not "now my AC is high enough I can't be hit by kobolds."

Be stealthy, don't just run through it. That's the whole point of the quest.

Though I agree that people should pay more attention to what the quest is about and not just a hack-n-slash fest, your comment is non-sequitur.

It's called an attack roll vs AC not attack roll vs. 15. Pretty ham-fisted solution to stratospheric ACs, IMO.

Godspeed.

[Borror0]

It's called an attack roll vs AC not attack roll vs. 15. Pretty ham-fisted solution to stratospheric ACs, IMO.
Consider telling those who designer 3.5 D&d that it's called attack roll vs AC not attack roll vs. 20!!

[Aspenor]

Though I agree that people should pay more attention to what the quest is about and not just a hack-n-slash fest, your comment is non-sequitur.

It's called an attack roll vs AC not attack roll vs. 15. Pretty ham-fisted solution to stratospheric ACs, IMO.

Godspeed.

And your comment is irrelevant. This is a real-time MMO that has different rules than 3.5. Changes to the game system can, and will, be made for the betterment of the game.

[Cyr]

/signed

People whine about whatever build is better then theirs. They keep on forgetting though that when the devs listen to them it is just another merry go round of rebalancing which is more likely then not to alienate and frustrate players who lose their 'good' toon to the whims of Eladrin. This is particularly bad form now that the game has changed business models and players have to buy leveling sigils which is even one more hoop they have to jump through if their guy gets nerfed into oblivion. (if they are not paying monthly).

[efreet5]

My main toon is an ac build (See my sig-though i dun see it for some reason...) and I have found little trouble with grazing hits. Before mod 9 I could pretty much solo anything I wanted to. Now, I can still solo most things easily enough with very few exceptions. Grazing hits merely added another wrinkle to my preparation for questing.

I have quested with a lot of "ac toons" that were built before mod 9 and many of them failed to take the grazing hits into consideration and prepare either via stoneskin clickies/wands, blur wands, displacement clickies/scrolls, etc. Another problem with this is that the same people that are now struggling with these "ac toons" got too used to combat being like other mmo's. Before the mod change a high ac toon could throw on auto-attack and stand toe to toe with any monster with little incentive to attempt to dodge via movement in combat. Now, grazing blows hurts these people that have gotten used to their ac toons being a way to play their toon like a standard mmo tank where they just stand in place and swing.

Armor class is only one of many means of helping our toons survive in this game. Before mod 9 armor class got the the point where it was too powerful. Grazing hits, while not perfect, brings high ac toons back in line. They take damage, yes, but not nearly as much damage as the no ac barbarian standing next to them (ask your cleric if you doubt this). Armor class should be used in conjunction with other means of protection to survive. It should NOT be the only reason a toon is able to stand in the middle of 10 attackers and come out unscathed.

My Advice:
Make a radiance rapier (I did)- The blind effect makes 50% of ALL attacks, even grazing hits miss, not to mention it gives them a -2 penalty to hit.

Stoneskin clickies/wands-You can get these from the shroud, demon queen (new perm flag FTW!), or umd via wands.

DR Items-There are many little used dr items in the game such as Bloodrage Symbiot, Golden Greaves, etc.

Crowd Control-FIGHT IN THE FOGS! I know many casters that don't drop a lot of cc due to melees not actually making use of it. If there's a fog, get in it! No excuses. It will mitigate 20% of the enemy attacks from concealment. CC ideas for casters reading-Solid fog (-2dmg/-2atk as well!), Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Sleet Storm (Auto Blind-just FOM everyone), Incendiary Cloud (Auto Blind, no save). There's even clickies of solid fog that are readily available or better ones that can be made in shroud.

Move in Combat- DDO combat is very active and fast paced. By focusing on avoiding the mobs' attacks one can mitigate a lot of damage w/o armor class ever coming into play. As I said before, AC should NOT be an easy button.

[redoubt]

My Advice:
Make a radiance rapier (I did)- The blind effect makes 50% of ALL attacks, even grazing hits miss, not to mention it gives them a -2 penalty to hit.

Stoneskin clickies/wands-You can get these from the shroud, demon queen (new perm flag FTW!), or umd via wands.

DR Items-There are many little used dr items in the game such as Bloodrage Symbiot, Golden Greaves, etc.

Crowd Control-FIGHT IN THE FOGS! I know many casters that don't drop a lot of cc due to melees not actually making use of it. If there's a fog, get in it! No excuses. It will mitigate 20% of the enemy attacks from concealment. CC ideas for casters reading-Solid fog (-2dmg/-2atk as well!), Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Sleet Storm (Auto Blind-just FOM everyone), Incendiary Cloud (Auto Blind, no save). There's even clickies of solid fog that are readily available or better ones that can be made in shroud.

Move in Combat- DDO combat is very active and fast paced. By focusing on avoiding the mobs' attacks one can mitigate a lot of damage w/o armor class ever coming into play. As I said before, AC should NOT be an easy button.

Thank you for a well thought out response. Overall, nice suggestions. (Albeit, ones I already use as much as I can, though the lag is killing me on the move in combat one right now.)

I would like to point out one thing in your suggestions that is telling however. When you say make a radiance rapier you are implying a build type. Whenever my rogue gets high enough, he will have one of course, but my L17 monk is SOL on those. He is a handwrap user and Turbine has seen fit to not allow us GS. Sure I could make kamas, but it feels like a waste of resources.

While I understand that they may have been trying to lower those with god like AC and god like dps, the blanket approach is affecting others such as the pure monk-dex build who did not have huge dps but relied on AC and has to take longer to kill.

[TheJusticar]

Now, I can still solo most things easily enough with very few exceptions.


Therein lies your flaw in rationale. When I solo stuff with my pally post Mod9, I can shrug off grazing hits as merely a nuisance. However, when you are in a full group, those _SAME_ grazing hits are not trivial anymore. In fact, those grazing hits are killer when compounded with hits you would've gotten hit with anyway. Sorry but when a dog or a rat hits you for 30-40 (-17 DR from shield and armor) damage/paw or when a windlasher gnoll bites you for 40 or so points when your AC is high enough that you should've never gotten hit to begin with (unless they rolled a 20) you know the system is broken. This has nothing to do with combat styles.

Godspeed.

[efreet5]

To redoubt:
In regards to the radiance rapier, no, my toon is not a rogue. He is a ranger/paly/monk halfling w/tharne's goggles, so i do benefit to some degree from getting the blind effect, but even were he human I would have made the rapier. I made the rapier last mod the very second i heard about grazing hits coming as I didn't want to put a toon on the backburner that I put so much hard work into farming his gear. Radiance is nice even if you're not a rogue if you want to counter grazing hits.

The radiance rapier isn't a great option for casual players w/the high scale requirement, but for those that have the ingredients lying around, it is a sound investment. Besides, it was either that or I put on a shield...:D

---------------------------------
To TheJusticar:
I said that I can solo most things, not that I always solo. I am most often questing in full groups with my guildies or helping pugs through the quests. My suggestions are completely unaffected by scaling. Use them and find out yourself. Fogs mitigate a LOT of dmg. Buffs like blur/displacement are also very helpful. Grazing hits really are just a minor inconvenience and I've yet to have a huge issue with them. I seem to find that many of the most outspoken players against them don't seem to use many of the tips I posted. Simply standing there going toe to toe with a gang of monsters should not be possible. (this isn't suggesting you do so) AC was overpowered. Now, it got nerfed, yes, but not to the point of being useless. Next time you quest try getting a wizard w/incendiary cloud, it won't do damage, but if you're fighting in it the whole time you WILL notice a huge difference in the damage you take and a similarly noticeable difference in the number of grazes/hits you take.

I didn't say the system was perfect. It does need to be adjusted somewhat for the reasons you mentioned. No character should ever be hit for 40 points of damage on a "graze." That's not a "graze" that's a hit! It is difficult for the devs to come up with a system though as this problem is an inherent flaw with the d20 system that the game is based on. The devs had to do something to counter our sometimes ridiculous AC's and this was their choice.

[redoubt]

To redoubt:
In regards to the radiance rapier, no, my toon is not a rogue. He is a ranger/paly/monk .

Sorry for the confusion. I had pegged your character as a ranger/monk-splash. My comment about my rogue was simply to show I understand the usefulness of a radiance weapon.

:D

As a side question: Do you think a pure monk having 80 AC is rediculous?

[efreet5]

A pure monk with 80 ac? No, I don't think that's much of a problem as they currently lack much in the way of offense. Their primary strengths are all in their defensive abilities, which include: high saves, Improved Evasion, Easy-to-achieve high ac, poison/disease immunity, Spell Resistance, crowd control (stunning fist, finishers, etc.) and, if you take way of the monkey, stacking bonus to elemental resistances. Plus, as long as one stays pure, they'll get dr10/epic, which should take care of most grazing hit damage anyway and eliminates the need for stoneskin against any mobs dealing non-epic damage.

[Letrii]

Get rid of the grazing hit system and use the rules. Either hit my ac or roll a crit if you wanna hit me in melee.

[redoubt]

A pure monk with 80 ac? No, I don't think that's much of a problem as they currently lack much in the way of offense. Their primary strengths are all in their defensive abilities, which include: high saves, Improved Evasion, Easy-to-achieve high ac, poison/disease immunity, Spell Resistance, crowd control (stunning fist, finishers, etc.) and, if you take way of the monkey, stacking bonus to elemental resistances. Plus, as long as one stays pure, they'll get dr10/epic, which should take care of most grazing hit damage anyway and eliminates the need for stoneskin against any mobs dealing non-epic damage.

Okay, now we have a place to work from.

A pure monk, we agree is a defensive character and is low-ish on dps. Agreed, right?

So how do you pull back the ranger/monk who has the same AC and much more dps without screwing the pure monk?

Yes a pure monk gets the DR 10, but most of those ranger/monks also have 1 rogue and just umd to get their DR. I still think its hurting unintended classes.

Unintended consequences are something Turbine is very familiar with, and yet...

[efreet5]

I understand what you're saying about unintended consequences, but I don't have a complete solution.

Before lvl 20 monks don't have dr, but I could see possibly making their centered bonus to ac function as dr against grazing hits?? It would only be dr 1-4 while you're lvling your monk, but it would mitigate a lot of the damage. Personally, I think monks have enough defensive abilities to mitigate damage that grazing hits kind of balances it out by leaving physical attacks as the main way to attack them until lvl 20.

As for ranger splashes utilizing umd to overcome grazing hits, that's an investment. It takes a lot of stoneskin clickies/wands to keep it up all the time running content on elite where you're constantly grazed. The monk gets it for free later on, but he doesn't have to make the plat investment or time investment of farming say the seal of the earth. Any class can still equip items like the bloodrage symbiot and golden greaves which provide unlimited and unbypassable dr. They will take more damage than someone using stoneskin, but they dont have the plat commitment or the requirement of having umd to get the dr.

I said in one of my earlier posts that grazing hits are not perfect, and this is true. What I meant by that is the dex classes are justifiably hurt by grazing hits. My main is a dex based toon and I enjoy taking damage again it makes combat more fun. The problem I have with this change is for the sword and board using toons that go for ac. Grazing hits bring the rangers more in line by making them take additional damage despite their ability to maintain high ac and have high dps, but paladins and fighters also take more damage and grazing hits shouldn't do much to these toons wearing full plate and using a shield for ac. A graze on someone wearing a robe could do damage with nicks and cuts, but someone wearing fp really shouldn't be harmed in the same way. I know, real-life based arguments don't do much when "magic" is involved, but this is the problem I have with the system.

The toons wearing fullplate cannot benefit from evasion, so they've made a concession to take fireballs to the face, but the rangers/monks can have the same ac while also not having to worry about much of the spell damage. For me, this is a big problem. The toons wearing fullplate already took more damage than those wearing light armor and using evasion, but now they take more ON TOP of what they were already taking due to grazing hits, even if having a shield reduces this damage. I would really like to see a change to the system that would benefit toons wearing heavier armors, even medium armor, as they are covered in metal plating and they need some kind of reason for doing so besides role-playing or flavor. Heavy and Medium armors should reduce the amount of grazing hit damage, either with a form of dr that would stack with any other dr on the toon or simply by a %, though heavy armor should provide more protection. This would benefit those toons using a shield to already lower grazing hit damage and make it so that wearing fullplate is something that could be desireable in the late game.

What do you think? As you can see, I'm not to worried about the dex-based classes that go for ac, but the pure fighters and paladins that get screwed from a nerf not even aimed at them.

[redoubt]

Shields:

Damage reduction applies normally to these grazing hits. Miss chance from concealment effects like Blur / Displacement still apply. If the target is wearing a shield, they take reduced damage from grazing hits, after DR is applied. (90% damage when using a Buckler, Small Shield, or under the effects of a Shield spell, 75% with a Large Shield, or 50% grazing hit damage when using a Tower Shield.) Experienced monks also take reduced grazing hit damage - every 4 monk levels grant -10% to grazing hit damage as long as they are centered, after DR is applied.

After a re-read of Eladrin's post, we both find some assistance. Both shields and monks are supposed to take reduced grazing hit damage.

[efreet5]

I already knew about shields reducing the amount of grazing hit damage, but I think that characters in fullplate should take less damage from a grazing hit than a similar character that's wearing Dragontouched Leather Armor for evasion while using a tower shield. This would make more sense as one can still get small nicks and cuts through leather but not through steel plating. I know, I know, another real life argument...I don't know what to tell you. I have to get them out of my system. :rolleyes:

Shields should do what they currently do, which is lowering the damage take by a person utilizing one; but the type of armor they are wearing should also affect these small grazes that are occurring during combat now. At one time I recall someone making a suggestion of having fullplate or heavier armors provide damage reduction, but this was a while ago (around when Icy Raiments first came out and we saw dex based ac toons taking off). While I don't believe they should just get dr against all hits from wearing it, having the dr apply solely against grazing hits would seem to be a decent idea to me.

With shields providing a % of damage reduction I think that the armor should provide a solid number. Maybe give a value to each armor type.

For instance: (not finalized just a rough idea)

Leather/Studded Leather/Robes/padded: 0
Chainshirt: 1
Breastplate/chainmail: 2
ScaleMail/Banded Mail: 3
HalfPlate: 4
Fullplate: 5

By doing something like this characters would gain protection against grazing hits simply by wearing heavier armor. This kind of change would benefit both hardcore and casual players since armor isn't that hard to come by. This change would also make some kinds of armor better, such as mithril and adamantine armors. Mithril, while dropping a fullplate to medium armor, doesn't make the armor less protective, which would result in a medium armor with a higher damage reduction against grazing hits. Adamantine armors' dr that is already in the game could apply in addition to the inherent dr against grazes already on each type of armor. A change like this would provide additional protection for those in fullplate and make a difference for them in reducing the physical damage they take, but leaving the robe wearing ac toons unaffected and still reliant on stoneskin and other magical items for protection.